Stop Blanket-Blaming The Game Master - RPG Philosophy

Many problems can befall a TTRPG group, and addressing the source, versus the symptom, is the best for fixing them. But blindly declaring all Player issues the fault of the Game Master ignores the many other possible culprits, and doesn't help anyone.
Apologies, this video is a bit of a rant and kinda all over the place before circling onto the point.
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Guest starring The Gang
00:00 Intro
02:53 Railroading
05:49 The Story of Dweebles
10:08 Discussing Bad Gaming Habits
12:42 Video Games
13:47 Personal Preference and Personality
15:06 Why They’re Rarely Mentioned
16:03 The Problem of Not Acknowledging Other Culprits
16:42 Messy Conclusion

[@kevinbaird6705]

I always blame the DM, unless it's Jeff. That guy's awesome.

[@franciscorios4914]

Me too. Jeff's the greatest of all time!

[@NefariousKoel]

Jeff's grass is awesome. It's always greener over there, on the other side of the tracks! 😆

[@ljmiller96]

you said that about Seth in Jeff's game tho :P

[@TheSmart-CasualGamer]

THE GREATEST SETH SKORKOWSKY VIDEO REFERENCE ALIVE.

[@0x777]

I heard he's pretty overrated. I mean, that guy doesn't even have his own KZbin channel for crying out loud!

[@YamadaJisho]

Blanket-blaming GMs is one of the reasons there are so few.

[@jashloseher578]

Underrated as heck.

[@sinisterthoughts2896]

That struck home.

[@persephoneunderground845]

Yes- I think something that isn't said enough is "the GM is a player too". They're an important player, and they're doing a lot more work, but they're not a special perfect god, and on the flip side they're not responsible for absolutely everything either. They're just the person playing the world, instead of an individual character. I think every player should try GMing once or twice just so they see the other side of the table. It removes the odd separation in your head between GMs and players to try it out for yourself.

[@VivianQueenofUndeath]

It's like blame the jungler in league of legends.

[@elgatochurro]

There are plenty of players who talk as if they know how to DM and have do it the "right way" that the DM simply refuses to do... It's funny that these players aren't hosting

[@alexbarrett3832]

The corollary to this is also that when you are in a bad game, you as a player can actually do quite a bit to save it. It doesn't all rest of the GM's shoulders. More than a couple of times I've found I wasn't really enjoying a game much, but was able to fix it just by shifting my playstyle a bit to show the GM what elements were working and what weren't. I've taken some really slow, dull games, and entirely from the players side of the fence injected a heck of a lot more energy and excitement into them. I'm glad I had that lightbulb moment, rather than just dropping out or suffering in silence. Be the change you want to see in your game.

[@reuvengritters2983]

Excellently said sir.

[@bigblue344]

I like to call those kinds of players "Co-DM's" because the player is working with the DM to make for an exciting game.

[@kneeofjustice9619]

That depends on the DM. I was in a bad game recently and whenever we tried to anything that could improve the game we’d be hit with a resounding “that’s not how that works”, “the rules say no” and “You aren’t proficient in that so I’m not gonna let you roll for it”.

[@kevinsullivan3448]

When I found RPGs back in 1981, my fascination was that "I" could be the main character of the story, or at least one of them. For years I had seen otherwise intelligent protagonists make absolutely stupid mistakes in books, movies, and TV shows. Mostly is was bad writing, but when the hero of the story keeps making the same mistake over and over and never learns from that one mistake it gets annoying. The idea of being presented with a puzzle or conflict and being able to figure out my own way of solving the issue was very appealing.

[@kevinsullivan3448]

@@kneeofjustice9619 When we talk about game philosophies we can identify many axis. One of these that I learned very early on if the "If it doesn't say you can, you can" axis. In this axis, one GM says "If the rules do not explicitly state you can do this thing, you never ever can do this thing so shut up." The other end is the GM who says "If the rules do not explicitly say you CANNOT do the thing, give it a try." Some games are badly written, some people are obtuse, some GMs are just control freaks.

[@Gebohq]

Seth: "This video is going to be disorganized." *proceeds to present a well-organized video in the guise of "rambling"* :)

[@BigCowProductions]

I was gonna say something like that also 😅 Pretty well executed!

[@sinisterthoughts2896]

I knew he was lying! Typical DM, it's always their fault! Lol

[@ronin7997]

I also found the presentation and arguments to flow very well. I imagine Seth is his own worst critic (or Dweebles).

[@MrLordmikel]

Amazing what you can do with a good editting.

[@justinsinke2088]

"There are no bad players..." Total BS. That's like taking "the customer is always right" to an illogical extreme. There are bad types of ANY kind of person, period. You might as well say "there are no bad employees, only bad bosses". Good luck finding anyone working in the real world to agree with THAT statement. Just because the GM is the one "running" the session doesn't mean they hold sole responsibility for everything that happens at the table. Everyone has a level of responsibility, and if players are given the mentality that everything is someone else's fault, that only ENCOURAGES the bad apples to be worse because "it's not my fault". It kinda reminds me some of, interestingly enough, something brought up in the video game Tiny Tina's Wonderlands, which is about you playing as a PC in a tabletop game. Two other players in the game have different reasons for playing. One wants to forget the drudgery of real life to imagine being a hero, while the other likes the structured rules the game provides because real life is chaotic and unpredictable. Neither are wrong, just have different reasons they enjoy playing.

[@girlbuu9403]

"There's no wrong way to play a table top game, just people with different expectations clashing" would be a better way of saying it in general. A bad player AND a bad dm is a subjective thing. I've been accused of being a sadistic monster and been told I am the best dm several players have ever had. Same with people that have... experienced me as a player. Buuuut... there is a point where you 'clash' with way too many people and you need to learn to compromise. If compromising means you need to stop freeloading, accusing everyone of cheating, picking random verbal fights OOC, picking random physical fights OOC, making unwanted sexual advances on characters, making unwanted sexual advances on other people at the table, and in general being an unholy terror who was never socialized as a child and may have a laundry list of conditions acknowledged by professional therapist organization then you are less a bad player/GM and more a bad person.

[@effincook4176]

@@girlbuu9403 the customer is always right IN MATTERS OF TASTE is the quote.

[@And-ur6ol]

Would you ever say "there are no good players"? No, obviously there are some players that are just amazing. And if a player can be good at playing, then it follows that a player can also be bad. Also, would anyone really say that the players are not interacting with the GM? Ofcause they are. And if players interact with the GM, they obviously are influencing the whole game. I mean, that's the entire point of playing! To interact and influence. Just absolutely mental to say "There are no bad players". It's the kind of mentality, that can only lead to a bad relationship with the GM and the players themselves.

[@WellManNerd]

There are no bad student, only bad teacher. -Mr. Miyagi

[@And-ur6ol]

@@WellManNerd Mr. Miyagi never visited the class with "special children", did he? :P

[@ericjome7284]

Being the GM is like being the host of a party. A lot falls on you as host; providing an entertaining time, seeing the guests get the food and drink and company and activities that they like. But can a guest ruin the event for the host and other guests? Of course! Boorish, disruptive guests just bring down the party. There are limits to what the host can provide for guests. But the guests are active participants in the occasion too.

[@davidmorgan6896]

When you host a party, part of making it work is considering what sort of party it is and who you will invite to help make it happen. If you want a very sophisticated party where everyone eats canapes and discusses the Edinburgh Fringe then you don't want to invite Big John with his love of strong drink and his endless supply of pornographic jokes. We should only invite players whose style and approach to the game are compatible; with you as GM and with the other players. This, of course, is much easier said than done. We may not have a huge pool to choose from or there may be some players we have to invite.

[@AndrewJHayford]

@@davidmorgan6896 People's gaming behaviors are often very difficult to see on the surface. Many problem behaviors do not appear until you actually start playing. People I'd expect to be compatible table top players have ended up being people I've had to avoid.

[@TheOmnipresent]

People are thankful to the host. They accept the hosts spread and entertainment. They don't go turn off the hosts music and put on their own. There is respect. With GMs, players are often not thankful and they want to tell you what to lay out for the spread. If only it were like being a host, it takes a long time and a lot of sifting to find people like that.

[@davidmorgan6896]

@@AndrewJHayford yes, agreed. If things aren't working out we should all be mature enough to call it a day before gaming becomes a chore.

[@jakeand9020]

Also, like hosting a party, there's no one to help clean up the mess either.

[@B1omaH]

God, it happened to me. A few years ago I was running 5e. My old group fell apart due to our lives going different directions. Time goes and people have different things to do. So, since I my old group couldn't play anymore, I thought it's time to find new players. I found a few players, invited to my home and started running the game... 5 hours after, it was the worst shit shower I've ever experienced. They didn't like a thing, and called the session one of the worst sessions they ever played... I felt terrible, and it was the last straw, which led me to a burn out. I couldn't run or play TTRPGs for a year after that... Participating in TTRPG community on online forums, made me realize that it wasn't my fault. There wasn't anyone's fault. We just had preference mismatch. But I was blamed for everything and shat on for running a "wrong" game. I really enjoy "OSR" style of gaming, independent and open worlds, open-ended questions, sandboxing and so on, and I found a few new players who enjoy the same style and we're having a blast! Absolutely agree, it's not always DM's fault if the game was meh

[@sakawi]

That kind of game sounds exactly like what I'm looking for at the moment. I have only played in railroad-y games and I'm tired of being forced to follow a plot that I don't care about following!

[@The_Custos]

Stepping on a bear trap probably would have hurt less. Maybe a fall down a 20 foot pit?

[@blizz3975]

Welp... someone didn't do session zero...

[@rpgchronicler]

Honestly OSRs arent my thing tbh. For me its just an interpretation of nostalgia that I cant get behind for the most part.

[@gnarthdarkanen7464]

@@blizz3975 I don't know about "NO" session-0, but arguably not a COMPLETE session-0... Just citing the vid' here. Open and Honest Communication (like a complete session-0) gets through the whole of the experience. From the Social Contracted behaviors like putting together AN ADVENTURER instead of a cowardly piece of crap... or a toxic edgelord loner... to the expectations of the Players and the Playstyle of the GM... all of it covered, and then agreed upon. At the very least, for the first ever session-0 of a brand new group... even knock down the specifics for things like CvC violence and bickering versus "Antics in-Game"... At the point someone discovers they probably won't get along well with the GM's Playstyle, they can bow out politely. Nobody's wrong, just different enough to foresee a toxic situation and step out before we can't stay friends. I've bowed out of games because I like sub-optimal builds and the entire rest of the Group were Power Gamers, optimal was the only way to survive. I'd call it out for "Toxic", myself... BUT for the fact they all enjoyed it... or they enjoyed it enough to put up with it and continue going back. For me, a suboptimal adventurer seems more organic, more like the kind of thing you'd see in reality, even if this D&D thing kind of breaks reality at the mention of purple dragons and stuff... I get that I'm weird like that. I like my "heroes" and "villains" to have very real struggles that they manifest for themselves, the same as real people do much of the time. I also get that Power Gaming is a way to go, too. No problem... The two styles just tend not to mix so well, and the suboptimal PC's get killed a bit more often with Power Gamer PC's around (especially as a majority of the Party)... part of the whole "challenging adventure" situation. Anyways... I know YOU (Blizz) know about all that. My aim is to bring up the finer points to include in a session-0 so others can learn and grow, too. Maybe you know of important stuff I've either missed or skipped, and want to include, too... which is fine. Addendum away... ;o)

[@inti665]

It has happened to me that some of my players believe that the GM is a kind of policeman who, in addition to keeping watch, must be responsible for maintaining the tone of the game even if the players make lame jokes or are openly distracted. It's worth reminding them that role-playing is a collaborative effort and that there isn't necessarily a single way to play, but to do so while respecting the fun of the other players at the table. BTW I really love your tips and skits. #dontblametheGM

[@bigblue344]

I have encountered a lot of people who think its up to the DM to do everything and make sure the game runs smoothly without anything too negative happening to the characters. Meanwhile said characters are putting zero effort into the game and making obviously bad decisions but doing it anyway because its "cool" expecting the DM to bail them out.

[@goncalocarneiro3043]

Oh yeah, no shot. I have a limit on how many quips and derailing I can handle as a player, and I will fight for it. I may not be the narrator, so I can't introduce a new scene, but I can ask questions. "So what was X saying to Y?" or "Could you tell me again what was written in the X?" those types of questions usually make people focus back in the game, eitehr having the DM describe something again, or have some player resume in-character speaking.

[@phatpat63]

Has pointing out to players that they share responsibility for the game ever actually solved anything in your experience? The best results I've ever seen usually take the form of the player minding their behavior for a week or three at most and/or just being more sneaky about it trying to dodge any blame in the future. I've been running games for over 20 years, and I've never seen a player act in a way that didn't turn out to be something they actually felt justified/entitled to do. Nor have I seen a _real_ problem from someone that wasn't rooted somewhere in their character as a person, and an hour conversation for the sake of a hobby/game, unsurprisingly, never seems to be the impetus those folks need for the personal growth required to get past it. I'd love to hear some stories where a talk/reminder fixed that sort of problem and the player(s) went on to play for years without backsliding into BS behavior.

[@elgatochurro]

This... Had someone insult a game I tried to run saying it crashed and burned... True But the players he recommended me and said were good roleplayers... Seemed to miss how much emphasis I put on a SERIOUS TONE for this rebellion campaign... I got Bernie who's a D4 intellect guy with a flamethrower, and "Ree-sus"... Yeah there's plenty of reason I went back to my own group. And I only take responsibility for it failing so far as trusting them to be serious for such a game. I can do wacky nonsense too if people were up for it.

[@elgatochurro]

@@goncalocarneiro3043 YES... OMG THIS! last session a player legit took up possibly 40 minutes with out of game jokes... They also keep ruining the best RP scenes I've gotten from ttrpgs with their nonsense. I don't mind it but especially last night was excessive.

[@tommykay7427]

Any player who says the GM is to blame for everything have never been a GM themselfs! Easiest way to correct that is to let them try to be a GM. That will open their mind.

[@evanhoffman7995]

So many problems arise from arbitrarily dividing the hobby into "players" and "DMs". There really needs to be an expectation that everyone at the table is going to take a turn in the DM chair every now and then.

[@tommykay7427]

@@evanhoffman7995 Very wise words!

[@MySqueezingArm]

I bet your GM put you up to this. It's their fault you made this video!

[@ZeroNumerous]

How dare Seth's GM make him do this!

[@salton56]

Jeff's players wouldn't make this video

[@girlbuu9403]

Why would Seth's DM do this? Can't he leave us in peace?!

[@russelljacob7955]

Just imagine how much better a player Todd would be if not for Seth. Be better off without.

[@broton69]

You mean Seth was railroaded into doing it?!?

[@TKFKU]

Never had a reason to "blame" a DM. It's like trying to blame the gods for the rain. Unprepared DM's happen, bad players happen. It's up to everyone at the table to make sure things go well.

[@adwadswadsda8458]

my dm made our druid kill 2 npcs for rolling below 10 when removing chains with the description of slicing their necks with her claw. He then forces our cleric to be hostile towards the druid for killing the npcs. The druid narrowly avoided death by rolling high enough persuasion. Idk fishy dm 🤷‍♂️

[@kevinsullivan3448]

There are bad DMs out there. The reasons cover a wide spectrum and when you find a Bad DM who refuses to learn to be a better DM then you might have to leave the game. Sometimes you have to take the group with you. Letting someone ruin a fun hobby for others makes you a mediocre player at best and a bad friend at worst. Other players should be your friends, even if you only just met them, unless they choose not to be.

[@ThatGuyMontag]

That's... optimistic. I try to follow the same philosophy but I had a problem GM where everything I did to make things work better only made him angrier and eventually more openly abusive. So... it can happen.

[@homersimpson7068]

@@adwadswadsda8458 Why was she using a claw? Sounds like a stupid party decision to begin with.

[@homersimpson7068]

I think there is something toxic in the US [and GB] TTRPG world. I've never heard any stories of GMs in the non English speaking world who set out just to fuck over their players. Many and various mindsets and ways of playing, but not that particular one.

[@joshuahebert7972]

I ran a game a few times with a guy who's only experience with RPGs was with videogames. He treated every npc like it had a dialog wheel, and he had a quick save in case he said or asked a question that didn't game out the way he wanted.

[@girlbuu9403]

Man, retconning is a tool too many people don't like using but I am trying to imagine someone seriously abusing it like that and it is... ugh.

[@paulbigbee]

Supremely good point. I think this is occurs more often than we acknowledge: people who play and enjoy “ARPGs” (e.g. Diablo 3) hear the abbreviation “RPG” and simply transfer those expectations into the tabletop experience. I have to reverse engineer their perspective by using the term “sandbox”, which is something they hear in video gaming to try to correct these assumptions.

[@benjaminlabarge4899]

As a player, my best experiences have always been largely a result of the other players being engaged, fun, and good sports. As a GM, my worst games are the ones where I let the anxiety of my responsibilities and obligations get the better of me. If one can't relax and enjoy running, resentment can easily follow.

[@salton56]

The "there are no bad players or characters, only bad DM's" quote rubs me the wrong way I've had a few players just not learn how to play their characters after a year of playing them what am I supposed to do for that.

[@whelk]

That quote robs players of their agency. As if players weren't people too with their quirks and flaws.

[@kevinsullivan3448]

There are plenty of jerk players out there who only have fun and 'win the game' when they cause problems and disrupt everyone else's fun.

[@kevinsullivan3448]

@@whelk It's one way inexperienced or bad players shift the blame from themselves to someone else. "It isn't my fault I'm a useless eater of food, it was this DM, that DM, that other DM over there, and all those people's faults that I can't be a decent human being and accept my own culpability in this."

[@salton56]

@@kevinsullivan3448 spitin facts

[@Haukipesukone]

Most bad games I've had have been due to a problem player, not the GM.

[@IanBoyte]

Hello Seth Skorkowsky, Internet here. We like you, keep it up.

[@the-wisest-emu]

I think there is something to the idea that players try to play D&D like a video game. One issue I've run into is that players expect my NPCs to be like dumb, passive video game NPCs. They've gotten upset when the NPCs don't just go along eith the players' BS.

[@mikegould6590]

Everyone at the table takes responsibility for the success or failure of a table

[@thetimebinder]

"Not if the DM refuses to listen because they are God and it's their game. Don't like it. Quit." Note, I actually hate that notion of DMing and it's one of biggest triggers. DMing is hosting. DMing isn't holding a audience captive.

[@alderaancrumbs6260]

@@thetimebinder and the GM isn’t a mama bird expected to spit entertainment into the mouths of chirping players.

[@forestgaming3993]

This is something I have seen echoed in a general sense in society right now: Blaming people who are perceived to be in a position of power or authority and forgetting the immense personal power and authority every person retains in all situations. It didn't ever really hit me until I watched a documentary on the UK monarchy from the succession crisis in the late 1930s to early 1940s to modern era, how in a societal context people are taught to be infantalized. The example that highlighted it me was when the documentary was talking about the passing of Princess Diana in the 1990s and that the UK public couldn't process through the situation until the royal family had made a public appearance to reassure them. One of the details of that story that really drove home how interactions between people can develop into that dynamic was when some of the presenters contrasted that with how other monarchies such as the Dutch or Scandinavian had a completely different dynamic with the public and would have no need. The presenter even mentioning Dutch king to bicycle to events he would be performing an official function at and other official governmental functions. I realized that the 'theys' and 'thems' aren't a recent invention and have a much longer legacy that has created those kinds of reactions to situations. Blaming people in a perceived position of power or authority is something I see happen a lot these days and at times I see people arguing on who is actually the authority or power position to avoid blame and punishment. I have seen other cultures mentioned to take a more centralist approach to this, meaning to attribute responsibility to all parties involved and work together to find a solution to the presenting problem. I, however, have no personal experience of this and can't speak to whether that's accurate, how accurate it is nor how common it is in those societies. The lack of personal power I also see mentioned commonly in daily life. "Work sucks and you have to work. So..." as opposed to "I hate my job. I'm going to look for a different one." Blanket statements seem very common these days and throughout my formative years were as well. I have realized over time that satisfaction comes from understanding yourself enough to know what makes you fulfilled and then taking action to fill your life with those kinds of things and empty your life of things that make you miserable. I think it makes a lot of sense that this permeation of everyday life would reach hobbies as well. I have seen this especially common with video games. People playing most games hate the developers of said game and take every opportunity to take some kind of a jab at them. There are invertions of this as well and those are great to see but I haven't seen them as often. In my view, in Table Top games that position falls to the GM and they thusly get faced with those kinds of interactions. It is not always the GMs fault. At the end of the day they can only play a part of the dynamic creation, as to create a group dynamic you must have other people. A few techniques I have found really useful are: 1. If I don't enjoy something, figure out what I don't enjoy, a possible solution to it and speak to the other people involved. 2. If, after talking to them I realize they are actually really enjoying the dynamic as it is, leave the dynamic. Don't stick around and try to make everyone else change to fit what I like. Look for other people that comes naturally to. Thanks for making a video about this Seth. I think this is a great topic for discussion.

[@GeargianoXG]

Your story about Dweebles reminded me of a game I was a player in. We were supposed to do a heist, but none of the players were familiar with how heists works. We haven't watched movies like Ocean's 11, so we didn't really have a reference on what we had to consider. While we managed to come up with ideas, we didn't really enjoy the process since we lacked the experience to judge our plan's success chance and what we were missing. Like, we had the basics, we scouted the location to the best to our abilities, got an invitation to the party during which the heist was supposed to take place (those who didn't managed to get hired as servants), secured an escape route and vehicle. Ultimately, our heist failed and wasn't really fun for anyone involved since while we were in control, none of us knew what we were doing. Back then, we also said that the adventure was too open and vague and that there were too many options to consider, but looking back I don't think that was the full problem. Especially since immediately after that scenario, I mastered an adventure for the same people (except the old dm) who brought lots of good ideas and praised it for being a fun sandbox. But it was a mystery story, a genre that the group just understood better. The point of this story is probably that players who need/want more guidance, sometimes just lack the tools on how to actually engage with the situation and make meaningful and informed decisions. But it's important to not see that as a failure. Role playing is a skill after all, and it takes time to get better.

[@ErokowXiyze]

SOLID VIDEO! I'm a Dweebles, and during the video, I was thinking about how I came from Final Fantasy, where the goal is to finish the story. That point is also the most important. For we Dweebles we may have been promised a story, or think we have, which tells us, "Everyone's goal is to complete this story. The DM wants to tell it. I want to know it. Let's finish this story!" Which for an adventure book / railroad is perfect... but for a Western Marches style game, it's poison. This is why it's really important for players to know what kind of game they're in. I don't mind meandering through a Western Marches style games as long as I know that's what I'm playing.

[@jacobborgmann7762]

I remember about a year ago some players complaining to me about my pacing and the lack of direction they felt. I remember asking them which of the many events that were ongoing did they feel most drawn to. After they struggled to select any prompt I decided the game should end. It never occurred to me that I was being too open world with them

[@erc1971erc1971]

I can totally get where you are coming from man. I love open scenarios where are you have total freedom to solve the problem, and if I was running for players who wanted a set solution I would probably look right past it and not provide that for them. Luckily my players have a similar mindset to me.

[@girlbuu9403]

That spoke to me. I know I have said before, but I got my mom to play a 1v1 game with me so she (former Sunday School teacher who was influenced by the Satanic Panic) would see what it was actually like. Lots of funny things from that game, but near the end I gave her a choice. She asked me "Which is the better choice?" "Well... they are both about equal. Like neither of them are objectively better and worse it depends on what you want to do?" "... okay... but... do I need to roll that insight or wisdom?" "I will give you advice on any good roll of that yes but, seriously. Both are equally valid choices." It wasn't even sandbox. It was a railroad with a switch in the tracks. Some people just are wired that way. I think she would have done better with other players to kind of pull her along though.

[@Mastikator]

Open games is not for everyone, a whole lot of players do however not realize this about themselves until after they wasted a ton of time in a sandbox game. Out of all the people I've ever played with I might be the only one that can create my own goals for my character and pursue them.

[@girlbuu9403]

@Paul Gauthier There is no wrong way to play D&D, only people with different goals clashing. If someone wants a total sandbox and all their players do let them. That doesn't make them a bad GM, that just means they and their group have different tastes. Though I have never played a sandbox that didn't have an underlying narrative, I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise either. Even when I ran my sandbox I had a clear big bad that made her appearance very early and made it clear she wanted to toy with the PCs, so they still had the unspoken goal of returning home (planescape shenanigans) and putting vampire goofball bitch queen in her place. I would be willing to give it a go, just to see what that might be like. I'd only ask to make it absolutely clear that there is no overall narrative hook so I know that my character needs to be assertive. They make and push the plot rather than wait for the plot to happen to them. ;p

[@Kidneyjoe42]

@@paulgauthier7033 This is a strawman. Even "sandbox" games have direction. And, more often than not, it's the players requesting them, not evil bad GMs forcing them on their pure innocent players who are physically incapable of ever being bad or wrong in any way.

[@MaxWriter]

"Old man yells at clouds style rant." I feel seen! I'm currently running the Saltmarsh trilogy in Down Darker Trails and, though the storyline is a bit of a railroad, I've added numerous hooks and potential side scenarios, as well as letting my players take whatever time they want about continuing the scenario. It''s kind of a partial sandbox. My players, refusing to take notes or plan outside of the game apparently, keep wandering around and doing absolutely nothing for the most part. I even asked one player if they were going to investigate something they talked about before and his answer was "It raining out. I'm going to stay in and read." They wont act, only react. They just wait for something to happen. It's driving me crazy. "Abused Gamer Syndrome" sounds like whiny players to me. This is excellently put. Thanks for sharing it. Wait. Dweebles doesn't like Cyberpunk?

[@SSkorkowsky]

One of the weirdest comments I got for that Intimate Encounters game i did with Glass Cannon was people (maybe 2 or 3, so not a lot) asking about my taking notes. Like the idea of note-taking was some brilliant idea they'd never considered before.

[@Dawning_Light]

I think a lot of newer role players feel like improv and acting is more important than gaming. Grant was known for his exceptional note taking. So it sounds very weird that someone would think note taking at the gaming table is somehow brand new. It sounds frustrating if players out there don’t want to share in the gaming space and create content with the GM instead of waiting for something to happen.

[@kneeofjustice9619]

@@Dawning_Light I felt this. I’ve met too many players who care more about having a power fantasy and getting upset when they realize other players exist and can ruin their plans.

[@kevinsullivan3448]

@@Dawning_Light I call this is the Critical Roll effect. Paid professional actors pretending to play TTRPG and giving new players unrealistic expectations of what a game SHOULD be.

[@phatpat63]

I just ended a sandbox campaign for the same reason. After a year of play (49 sessions) the game had yet to even get off the ground. It regularly felt like the players were holding the game hostage, like they would rather burn the game down than do something without being spoon-fed. I think this sort of thing has always been around, but as others have said, I think Critical Role and 5E have made it a much bigger problem. I think live-plays in general have greatly contributed this impression that TTRPGs are something you consume passively, and have lead people to see the goal/result of experiencing a great game without having to think about the process or 'work' that's necessary to actually achieve it. And while it's subtle, 5E has this focus on making things as easy for the players as possible up front more so than any previous edition, and it plays up the idea of the game as something that's easy to get into because nothing's required of you as a player.

[@ewanmartin972]

As a relatively new GM I just want to say thank you for being the first video I've come across for differentiating between railroading and hitting a story point. This sets my mind at ease alot!! You spoke about players misunderstanding what railroading is, but from my experience it's also easy for a new gm to do!

[@ToddHowardWithAGun]

Actually brilliant video essay that mirrors many of my own experiences as a DM. In the same game, I'll have one player complain that I'm railroading while another player will complain they're not being given enough guidance and they don't know what to do (and the other three will say everything is peachy keen). And before I used to caulk this up to my inexperience, but after seeing it happen again and again in many of my games, I'm starting to realize there is a threshold for what constitutes railroading that varies greatly from player to player. And by that token, it is impossible for a DM to make a game that will appeal to everyone, for the same reason you can't make a video game that appeals to everyone.

[@corvididaecorax2991]

This reminds me more than a little of how in my retail experience I was blamed for customer actions sometimes. In particular I worked retrieving carts, and these particular carts were prone to breaking if the were shoved together too roughly in the wrong way. I figured out ways to avoid breaking them, and trained new employees those ways too. But customers would often end up breaking them anyway. As the store's intact carts grew fewer in number one of the managers took me aside one day and told me that I need to be more careful with the carts. When I explained that I already am actively doing everything I can to keep them from breaking and it is really the customers fault, I was outright told that since they couldn't do anything to change the customers I was being blamed anyway.

[@paulofrota3958]

OH FUCK THOSE GUYS

[@Xplora213]

And you left soon after? The only positive in capitalism is that you are free to leave. Don’t worry. I have the same issue with my previous job. Don’t complain about me being lazy if there is nothing to do.

[@corvididaecorax2991]

@@Xplora213 Nope. I kept going at that job for months more. I didn't really have many options at that point, sadly.

[@SingeScorcher]

5 minutes listening to/readin anything from r/rpghorrorstories will tell you that GMs are NOT to blame for every bad player. Storytime: At our table we have a player that has repeatedly expressed that his character has "nothing to do" or little reason to do stuff outside of just following the group. This same player, when we were researching in a magic library found a children's story that both related to the topic at hand, AND connected to that player's patron deity. The DM sent that story over text to him. About a month later the player asked for the story to be resent b/c he hadn't read it and it got buried in his texts. A month after that, when asked if he read it, he admitted he hadn't and needed another resend. That story went unread for a year till another player found the same book on a fluke while learning the mechanics of the library. This is one example of many of this player ignoring things the dm has given them and then complaining about it. This is the ONLY dnd group this player has played in, so no previous gm BS. Guy's still fun to be around, but that behavior is AAAAALLL him.

[@MrSlothJunior]

I definitely wouldn't blame the GM for that, but on the other hand they could possibly find a way to engage the guy without it taking up time out of play. Some people will gladly spent hours between sessions on lore, strategy or other game-related topics, while others aren't up for spending even a few minutes...

[@girlbuu9403]

That would require going to reddit tho...

[@phatpat63]

@@MrSlothJunior If you can't be bothered to spend _any_ time out of game on game-related stuff, i.e. planing w/ the other players or reading something the GM sent you so that something can exist in the game without it having to take up limited play time, you are, by definition, a complete ass hole. The idea that it's someone else's responsibility to accommodate that kind of person is absurd.

[@SingeScorcher]

@@MrSlothJunior That's the funny thing. The player in question requested it be sent to him initially b/c he didn't want it taking up time at the table/wanted to avoid a meta situation. Our DM tries, but the amount of backstory hooks he tosses just whiff over head.

[@angelicasimmons6858]

This. There are a number of players out there who are solely responsible for their own bad behavior. I have a player who is ONLY interested in combat. If it doesn't involve combat, he doesn't want to do it. While other players enjoy doing things like formulating strategy, planning a heist, or role-playing getting information/quests from NPCs or interacting with each other; he'll take his turn to find the most random thing he can think of and make like its the best and funniest thing on the planet for him to do, whether that be try to honk the nose of Bozo in Cyberpunk, or 'cook breakfast where he only wants to fry up a sliver of egg'. He gets upset when I limit his time as he's taking away from more important aspects of game in general and only gets excited about the game when there's combat to be had. My other players are starting to resent him 'wasting their time'. So, I've had to talk to him. I don't think they will be interested in inviting him back to join in our next game.

[@LordofIsleofTritone]

As a player, I have had far more experience with player problems than GM problems. These problematic players were adults, they chose to maintain those habits, even when talked to about it. Blaming the GM for their behavior just feels wrong.

[@khpa3665]

A corollary of blaming the GM for problems at the table is the GM taking on too much responsibility. So many questions online from GMs about what they're doing wrong presume that the players' fun trumps their own, that the GM is just a fun dispenser. And that's just not true. Thinking like that only leads to disappointment, frustration and burnout.

[@ThomasKinzer]

Great point.

[@lostbutfreesoul]

Seconded! I am burnt out hard and only recently realized it is because I never had fun controlling the players as they needed to be controlled. That I didn't really enjoy the amounts of stages and sets I was making, ensuring every scene is mapped and modelled, because no one was ever impressed anyway. It was as if all this work was just... expected... of me, and the stress of making sure the 'fun dispenser' was always available led to it being broken hard. When I try to come back from 'retirement' every now and then it is like some sort of Trauma response. Last attempt involved me wasting real world money to try and access even more maps and models and things I could put together just to prove to eight people I could still do it. The complaints I got when X or Y wasn't exactly as they demanded it to be... shattered me. To the point my wife found me on the floor, shaking, and I haven't been able to even begin making worlds or picking up Campaign books ever since. Yeah, what could I have done that I wasn't already doing for a bunch of self-entitled players? I need something to smoke and to lay down after that, I am shaking just thinking back on it....

[@ronin7997]

@@lostbutfreesoul I think I might be in the same boat with the mapping. I take extra effort to design, print, and laminate tiles and maps for my tabletop D&D games, only for most of it to go largely unnoticed or appreciated at the table. The worst experience came after I crafted the entire layout of Castle Ravenloft with laminated dungeon tiles, only to have those players completely drop out from the campaign right after arriving to Ravenloft. Lost any motivation to DM for quite a while after that. I'm trying to now cut back on the pressure to construct elaborate tiles now that I'm running a new campaign and group; I just need to tell my OCD lizard brain the session does not need to be perfect.

[@fartymcbutterpants7063]

I agree. Too much responsibility is put on the GMs shoulders. It definitely leads to burnout. It is not one person's job to make sure the table has fun. Everyone is there to develop the story.

[@bigteej5821]

This is pretty off the cuff, and from mobile rather than a verbosity enabling keyboard. I think you might have hit on a better explanation to a community problem I have been observing for a hot minute. I've attributed a community-wide increase in hyper-casual play and audience-member habits to the popularity of things like critical role. The notion that so much of the community has been indoctrinated by video game play has almost entirely escaped my notice until now. Good work Seth. Don't be afraid to rant to the free couch that is the comment section again in the future

[@kevinsullivan3448]

It's the Critial Roll effect. Paid actors pretending to play TTRPGs while being completely scripted.

[@woobackwednesday2299]

@@kevinsullivan3448 While I haven't watched longer than 5 minutes of Critical Role at any given time (because I have a specific preference for actual plays), that just seems cynical unless you have evidence proving that. I can tell from past information available online that a fair bit of the crew are a bunch of massive nerds themselves so I like to think that they're just a bunch of nerds who started an actual play with a better starting budget and starting audience than most other ones out there. Plus actors/voice actors and tabletop RPGs sound like a match made in heaven on paper anyway

[@thejadedjester4935]

@@kevinsullivan3448 that seems like a bit of stupid take if I must say so. For the first campaign, did they start scripting onwards from the point that they started streaming? It does just seem like an over cynical take.

[@Caitlin_TheGreat]

These problems predate Critical Role... but that show (and others!) has exacerbated it. Video games especially, though, can have a massive affect on how a person approaches the idea of an tabletop RPG. Myself, when I first started playing in 2002 (as an adult already), I was enamored with the first two Thief games and wanted to replicate that experience, so when introduced to D&D I played a rogue and had the thought that I'd try stealthily sneaking into manors to take what was worth taking. Of course, my DM had a very different take on how things should go and it wasn't a great mix. After I took up the role of DM/GM, it wasn't long before I instead started thinking of TTRPGs as "interactive novels, with multiple authors". It helped also that as a hobby I had quite a bit of experience with creative writing. But that that perspective changed helped A LOT. And It's always why I started gravitating toward more narrative-focused / narrative-friendly systems. Light weight ones are also nice, but I don't mind crunch if it's in service to good cooperative story-telling and reinforcing the theme/mood of the world. I've run into other plays now and then who (usually being rather new to the hobby) viewed it mostly through the lens of a video game. And that includes modern games that are more spectacle and thus make for players who expect a more passive experience with only minor and occasional input from them other than just rolling dice. But yeah, Critical Role is entertainment, it's a show, and so you can wind up with people who are fans of it who expect to just be mostly an audience member at the table and the GM (and maybe the other players) to be the performer(s).

[@Caitlin_TheGreat]

@@kevinsullivan3448 It's not completely scripted (I think at best it may be broadly outlined, but even that I don't think is entirely true). But, they _are_ professional actors and so they improvise performances fairly easily and they all have a similar background and interests so it comes together far more easily than it would from a more diverse group without an acting background/profession.

[@0x777]

Thank you. Finally someone mentioned it, maybe make a whole video about it because the problem deserves it: Video games RPGs. Sure, we got an influx of a lot of new players from various very nice video game RPGs, from The Witcher to Elder Scrolls and even MMOs like WoW, but they also gave players a few ideas that don't apply to table top gaming (or, at least, they should not apply, at least in my opinion). The most important one in my opinion is one that you didn't even mention: Players coming from computer RPGs think they need to level to get more content. That's what happens in video RPGs, twice so in MMOs. You need to level up to get new stories, new content, new monsters, new areas to explore and new equipment to get. That's how video games have to work. It's surprisingly hard to get them to understand that with a human GM, whether you're level 2 or 20 does not matter in terms of what kind of game you get. There will always be new stories, new dungeons, new enemies and new cities even if you never level. Aside of that, if player and GM don't come together, I'm not that sure that it's really either's fault. You can just happen to have diverging ideas of what a "good game" is about. Robin Laws sat down around 1980 already and pondered why people sit down at a table to play RPGs, and he came up with 7 "archetypes". Now, I'm not a fan of pigeonholing people into stereotypes, but he's not wrong. An Actor, someone who plays the game to act out his character and give him a "soul", who wants to portray his character as realistic as he can, will probably not play well with an instigator who just wants to push every button, both physical buttons and the buttons in NPCs, to see what happens if he does. A tactician who creates masterful, intricate plans will probably not enjoy a game with a slayer who wants to stumble from one fight into the next and doesn't really care how the story strings them together. If the GM and the player have different ideas of what a "good game" is like, one of them will not have one. Now, the GM of course has a lot more tools at his disposal to force the game into the direction he likes than the player does. So yes, the GM will quickly be blamed for the game going bad by the player if the game isn't to his liking because that's the only recourse the player has. It is much more likely that the game will go according to what the GM enjoys, because he can steer or outright force it to be that way. A GM who wants to have tough fights in his games can force them. A GM who wants his players to avoid fighting and solve every problem by thinking it through can punish a martial solution so heavily that the players will simply try to avoid it. The player has no such options. And this is why the GM gets the blame. Not because he's wrong, not because the player is wrong, but because they expect a different game. Thus I think the first question when sitting down at the table with other people should be "What do we want to get out of this?"

[@oz_jones]

Also, you CAN go poke the elder red dragon with a pointy stick when you are level 1.

[@0x777]

@@oz_jones Sure. But it's like eating a poison fruit. You CAN do it. But only once.

[@calculusmaximus5078]

Seth: I think that you are broadly on point with this video. I just finished up my first campaign as a GM, and had a very similar experience to the one you mentioned in this video about Dweebles. In the wrap up of the campaign, a player told me directly that she wanted more clarity regarding choices, and that she believed this was due to her past experiences with video games. We talked about it and found that there were things we could both do and consider that would help ameliorate the problem. You are very correct in your last point, communication is key. Though in my eyes, that really starts with the personalities of everyone at the table. If communicating is difficult to begin with, solving problems is tremendously difficult.

[@bocarlsson3rd]

I recently started playing TTRPGs for the first time in almost 20 years (CoC) and in the beginning I struggled with the more sandboxy nature. When I got invited by my keeper I was really hyped partly because of the open nature. To be able to do things that no video game designer could have thought of. But I felt really lost the first sessions so we never really made any significant progress. I was disappointed in both the game and myself. I'm an avid fan of sandbox video games but it was still a struggle. What I realized was that even open sandbox video games can be totally open you still get a bit of a push in the beginning. The game gives you a feel for how the game works. Maybe a little trail of breadcrumbs. Just to give you confidence to dip your toes in the water. I had a similar experience playing Elden Ring. It was my first Souls-game and I was stoked. I like hard and punishing games that give you a real challenge so it's weird that I haven't played a Souls-game before. But I got stuck pretty much directly after the tururial. There is a hard miniboss in the very first area and I tried for hours to beat him. When a friend asked me if I liked the game I told him about my struggles and his answer was: "you know you can just go around it?". Even though I have played a lot of sandbox games I needed to have someone kind of give me a little nudge so I understood how in what ways I could interact with the game. So my conclusion is that a bit of railroading can be great especially for novice players. But I would think of it more an airport runway. Just something to help players take flight. I'm naming it "tarmacing".

[@rpgchronicler]

I think signpointing or bonethrowing might work well.

[@timio44]

i find CoC to be better when its more planed out and more story focused. but that is just me :D

[@silviusaltus8456]

I think a lot of people equate 'having a plot' to 'railroading', and it's pretty obvious from my experience as a player and a GM/ST as well as from talking with other people in the ttrpg community is that that isn't right. Players not only want plot, but are often actively looking for it and relieved once they find it. I've always thought about this, but it was Matt Colville who put it into those terms and helped me understand what it was about about the discussion about railroading that bugged me. The way he explains it is that railroading is shutting down players' good ideas because they didn't fit the GM's plans, which I think is a much better definition than the one I see a lot of people using, which seems to be 'any game with a plot or expectations'.

[@angelicasimmons6858]

I do see some people equating railroading with a game plot, but I personally see railroading as the GM/ST setting up a game such that it can only be done in a pre-determined way. For example: the GM/ST making it so that players can only use this particular explosive, from this particular guy, to blow up the wall and rescue their friend and the players can't coerce the guard, steal the keys, and do a sneaky break out; nor can they pay some bribes, or anything else.

[@woobackwednesday2299]

@@angelicasimmons6858 I think that does count as dismissing players' ideas in the name of the plot when they are sensible and possible things to do in the fiction, so I feel like you two are on the same page here

[@VinnyBloo]

I hate a plot. I like open-ended scenarios and to treat the game like a simulation. Matt Colville is a melodramatic socialist, btw.

[@zj871023]

@@VinnyBloo Do you know how hard it is to balance that? How much prep work that means? And even if you manage to come up with a hundred steps ahead of the players, you can be damn sure that they will do something completely different. All that prep work wasted. You have to have a balance of plot, some key points that need to happen, and a conclusion. Or you can just wing the entire thing I guess and have some fun for a few hours... What do you play without a plot? Go around town sightseeing and wait for the GM to come up with something interesting, or you just suddenly come up with the idea of: you know what? I wanna rob this place. Then the GM has to improvise everything in accordance to your latest idea? Dude, that's selfish as fuck :D It could work, just don't complain if it lacks any logic.

[@kuroinokitsune]

@@zj871023 now I know for whom so-called "AI DM simulators" written, because for me they always lacked structure and sense. Thanks

[@altasilvapuer]

Personally, I really love your "rambling" videos, because they feel more like sitting around the table over a pizza and drinks with friends, just hanging out. Your more "focused/intentional" videos are also fantastic, but they're more like attending a seminar or workshop at a professional development conference. Both have their place, and I really hope you come across topics that interest and excite you that fill both niches. Just like there's a place for every kind of GM and player, there's a place for both kinds of video. Love your content and look forward to what inspires you in the future!

[@altasilvapuer]

Oh, and.. uh... [Insert "I respect your right to a wrong opinion" joke here]

[@SSkorkowsky]

Thanks. Honestly the response has been WAY better than I expected. It's sort of a weird, roundabout way I get to the video's topic, but I think the reason why becomes clear by the time I manage to get to the point and can now reference all the stuff I spoke about in the setup. Also the topic itself is one that the few times I've tried discussing it with people or even other creators, I got shut down pretty quickly. I blame most of that one my phrasing and that I went right in to the topic without the long setup, but its became a subject that I've been leery of bringing up due to the response those failed attempts had. Up until I posted it Public I wasn't 100% sure if I was even going to post it.

[@leorblumenthal5239]

I had a player I GMed for who was a lot like "Dweebles". He was very risk averse, and saw Tabletop RPGs as a puzzle to solve. He once told me after one of our sessions that he was trying to play the game to reach the outcome I had in mind. Things came to a head in one campaign where he built what he considered a perfect "face" character who would waltz through social encounters with ease. In one encounter, the party was dealing with a Vampire who was a high ranking member of the nation's secret police. The player's character made what I felt was an unreasonable demand for contraband from this Vampire. I asked him to roll a check, and he of course rolled high. I decided that the result of the roll was that she was so amused by the PC's chutzpah, that she wouldn't kill the party. The player got upset. He figured that he had solved the puzzle and rolled high. The Vampire should have been doing his bidding, not laughing in his face. The player dropped out of the campaign, and another campaign I was running. We still talk occasionally, but he won't play in my campaigns.

[@killalot91]

Recontextulizing the success of rolls is a good trick.

[@gregbezanson3205]

Something that should be discussed is that having poor experiences in the past does not absolve a person of responsibility for their actions - it merely explains the origins of the bad habits. We all have bad experiences, it's not carte blanche to be terrible forever.

[@DiekuGames]

That 100K subscribers plaque is looking good on the wall!

[@Winterydee]

This is the real reason why Seth made this video... just to show off that shiny new plaque in the background!

[@whelk]

Ooh, I missed that. Now I have to rewatch the video to see if the reflection reveals whether or not he's wearing pants.

[@RoninRaconteur]

This is a great video! Whenever I talk about topics that happen at a table I tell people often that it's not always the GM's fault. I bring up examples that they like to use with Critical Role and Dimension 20 and I tell them that yes Brennan and Matt are great storytellers with a full idea of what the world they're playing in and putting their players through, but they're nothing without their players who take hold of hooks, don't purposely avoid things, listen (for the most part), and are engaged with the other players stories as much as the main one. If those same two great GMs sat with a table of players who ignored their plot hooks, went off and did whatever they wanted to do while sabotaging the other players, not paying attention to the others at the table, not caring about anything but themselves, or showed a huge lack of interest or maybe even didn't do anything to attempt to fit their character within the world that was built they'd have just as many problems with these people. Does that make them bad GMs? Obviously not. They came prepared, had things ready, understand the world around them attempted to make sure everyone was set for the game, the setting, and the theme only to get disinterest and kick back because the player "just doesn't want to do that". There are bad GMs out there, for sure. There's also a plethora of bad players...not players with a difference of how they want to play, just plain bad players.

[@kirin347]

Any time someone compares you to a pro DM, send them a bill.

[@demonzabrak]

@kirin347 I love it when people can say such savage shit and be completely right.

[@caldaryn6038]

Excellent Video! I wonder if this "looking for the railroad" mentality came up partially because people nowadays are so used to being lied to by the marketing of entertainment media and specifically video games. Everything gets labeled "open world" or "choices matter" when there is usually a defined intended way to do things. So when DMs and players talk about sandboxes they are not speaking the same "language" in a way. Which is fine, happens often and in all kinds of scenarios. I do think however that in this case it is hard to find ways to talk about this without coming off as accusatory... Pretty tricky, when the baseline for especially newer people is video games that by necessity have very few avenues to react to player behaviour. While the better part of a DMs "job" is to do exactly that. Still feels great when that suddenly clicks with a newer player and they go "Ohhh! This ISN'T a GAME!" The marketing of the more popular TTRPG brands does not help in that regard either. Whole campaigns and modules get labeled as "open" and then have scenario descriptions that say "this is how the players end up on one of the two intended paths to the finale".

[@PoisonxAlchemist]

Our group has been playing together for over a decade now, and we will instantly volleyball-faceplant-dive for anything that looks like a quest hook. Normally this makes it very easy for the GM to lead us around, but it can go (and has gone) sideways if the GM sneezes and we think that means the adventure is somewhere they hadn't prepared for. Road to hell and good intentions etc. This results in a functionally linear narrative and we all enjoy it. It's not about a railroad, or wanting to be railroaded, or even wanting a straightforward solution. For us it's about upholding that implicit social contract that we are all here to try to play this game and tell cool stories. We trust the GM has something cool planned, and we want to experience it. We know that without the GM's content there is no game. The math is pretty simple for us; volleyball-faceplant-dive onto what we're 'supposed' to do. It's true heists don't go over particularly well for our group. We spend so a lot of time planning and coming up with creative ideas, but we all end up disappointed because when the premise is heist any combat feels like failure and unmitigated success is an anticlimax.

[@matthewconstantine5015]

As though I need any more imposter syndrome, ex-Catholic guilt & performance anxiety on my GMing shoulders. Part of why I quit RPGs for over a decade was a couple horrible games in a row, with me as GM. I had two players who ended up hating each other & wouldn't turn it off (or even down). And another three players who always arrived late, having picked up take-out, which they'd then proceed to eat, without ever offering anything or even offering ahead of time to pick up food for others. The final straw was when one of the late, dinner eaters also brought a toy gun (ostensibly as something his character would have), and then proceeded to play with it and generally cause a ruckus instead of gaming. I'll admit that I'm not the greatest GM in the world, but when not one of your players is supporting you in any way...well, it was too much. Sadly, the next time I tried to get a game going, 6 years and 600 miles away from my previous failed game, things started out great with a solid "session zero" and a good first session. Then a player who'd missed the first session because of travel showed up for the second, refused to take anything at all seriously, laughed about EVERYTHING that happened (it was Call of Cthulhu), and spent most of the night on her phone, when she wasn't making it impossible for everyone else to concentrate. Add to the same session a married couple who'd shown up after having some big fight, so they were a ton of fun... Well, it was 6 more years before I tried anything again...Then the pandemic hit. GMing is, at least for a lot of us, really difficult and a lot of work. And the GM should be a player, too. It should be fun for them as much as for the rest of the players. I've found it very difficult to find folks who are willing & able to get together once or twice, much less for a regular game. And then to find folks who get along AND put more effort in than 'just showing up'...so far, I haven't been able to find that unicorn situation since the late 90s/early 2000s.

[@sinisterthoughts2896]

Same all around.

[@kadeshaderow]

"The existence of a plot is not a railroad" - Matt Colville. I hugely despise people mewling about railroading because they can't just fuck right off from a pre-written adventure whenever they want. Also IS THAT WHERE DWEEBLES COMES FROM?!

[@crowhaveninc.2103]

Agree. Sadly enough there are loads of buzzwords that people just throw around. "Metagaming" is another one of those that people tend to greatly oversimplify. I believe Seth has also done a video about that :)

[@midnightgreen8319]

Same. Had a player that wanted to be there just to goof off, in character . It was funny for about 2 minutes

[@bigblue344]

The funny thing is while most people complain of a rail road they often just mill aimlessly when they do have the freedom to do whatever they want.

[@midnightgreen8319]

@@bigblue344 Yeah. My group literally doesn't want a sandbox game. No west marches here. I've talked to them about all kinds of different types of games. They want me to present the adventure or adventure site. They literally want rails. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@Esperologist]

Yeah, there is a difference between having a plot and railroading game play. If a character isn't interesting in pursuing the plot... they leave the party, and the player rolls a character that is interested in the plot. If the player isn't interested in the plot, they need to ask why they are playing. Were they never interested? They should have voiced that during campaign setup, asking what sort of campaign it was going to be. Is the plot a new development in the campaign? If you weren't interested in dealing with the plot when it was introduced, should have said something. Lose interest in a plot along the way? Say something. I'm currently in a campaign where I don't really know what the plot even is. When I joined, there seemed to be a clear goal... but we never really seemed to be advancing towards that goal, but then achieved it. Now... I'm not sure what our goal is... we've wandered off into the woods, but I'm not really sure why. I'm enjoying (most) of the realm, and the team dynamic... so I don't mind the wandering around. But sometimes, I just want to know why we are doing something... particularly when it looks like all the options have bad outcomes. Particularly when the reason for it in the first place is silly, 'someone took my shiny, so I'll punish everyone... including people that had no way of taking it... in fact, let's just eliminate everyone in the whole kingdom because some person took my shiny.' Even worse when that person has the power to take that shiny back on their own, but just waits for the 'heroes' to come along to go get it... but if the heroes won't do it, then just continue gradually eliminating the nation.

[@jeffreymilliman2306]

I totally agree that video game RPGs have had a massive influence on how people play TTRPGs (often for the worse, in my opinion). I also think that the growth of the hobby and the existence of online forums full of people sharing horror stories of terrible players and GMs (not to mention the proliferation of actual play videos) has had a weird effect on people's expectations of the game, both positive and negative, even if they've never played before. The whole thing with railroading makes me think about your video "Say What You Want"; in my experience, players and GMs not communicating preferences is a big driver of disagreements over railroading (and most other disagreements, for that matter).

[@vitore.sanches7712]

I'm lucky to never have faced those issues myself, but this sort of discussion always gets me thinking. As a school teacher, I see some similarities in the way some people see the figure of the teacher and the GM. The way they believe that all behaviour shown at the table/school is born at the table/school, their belief that any issue can and must be solved by the "adult" of the group and how the blame almost always shiffts to that "adult" (you either created, allowed or didn't knew how to deal with the problem, therefore, it's your fault). The aggravation in the GM/player relationship is that, even though I dislike it, in class I am the authority and I have ways of dealing with the issue (offering alternative methods of avaliation, allowing the student to express themselves in a more comfortable manner, talking with their parents to look for a solution...). At the gaming table, I'm just another geeky dude with a few hours to kill. As Seth said in another video: the GM is just another player. Just another person trying to have a good time. They should not be expected to be more than that.

[@Soymilksoul]

It is also the responsibility of players to kindly tell their GMs if they are doing something that is making game less fun! I play with a GM, a dear friend and great guy, who has a bit of an issue railroading us players. He recently asked me how I thought the game was going, and I told him, honestly, that the game 'invisible walls' instead of saying he was 'railroading,' since I think it better conveys the problem, and the problem's origin in video games, and doesn't confuse the problem with simply having a plot. Basically, whenever a player tried to do something not on his list of possible things to do, an unnecessary barrier emerges, often hastily-crafted and questionably, to block them from doing what they want. A lot of ad-hoc magical walls and random barriers that just so happened to suppress some character's abilities but not others. I told him he has great encounters (he does design pretty epic boss fights) and I understood the reason why he wanted us all to get there, but that it was giving players a lot less agency, which was hurting fun. You just have to trust in the players and the dice and your own collective creativity. I think it was a productive chat, and seeing this video, I just thought I would comments

[@reginarainer9740]

A lot of the problems with players like this can be solved with a session zero, although I also like to check in with my players every so often. I have a group of younger players who were all new and were expecting a very linear video game. Being able to set expectations and then go to say ‘we can change the expectations at these points’ really helps.

[@ardentdrops]

I was playing in a FF Rogue Trader game with a number of people who were either shy or indecisive. As the designated leader and charismatic face I decided it was my job to delegate tasks to other party members based on their qualifications, and I made sure each one got some of the spotlight. I had to do a bit of negotiating from time to time but besides that I made it my mission to make space for everyone else.

[@ClothesCat]

Blaming the DM follows the logic of "There are no bad students, only bad teachers." and, sure, yeah; we can all agree with that to some extent but it is also never that simple. Nothing in life is that simple; complex social interactions like TTRPGs even less so. The "Us against the problem"-mentality has served me well in life, and I think it'd be a good solution at a table too. Either party can be at fault, or both, and you don't resolve it by trying to find out who has the biggest share of the blame. You solve problems by finding solutions, and preferably by offering an equal share of the burden of a compromise. Ideally the people at the table are friends and what the best outcome for everyone involved, and even if not then that should at least be an ideal to strive for. Some people are just jerks though, but I have yet to see correlation between jerks and any particular placement around a table. But what I do know is that jerks often try to paint themselves as being completely free of blame.

[@alexgreychuck7605]

As someone with ADHD I always worry that my GM-ing is too disjointed, and scattered. Your tips help me stay on "track" ( pun intended) so everyone at the table has a good game and enjoys the story.

[@Wolfman1491]

I often have new players, also I find it helps to remind my regular players that D&D is a collaborative story telling game and it takes everybody investing, engaging and thinking like a storyteller to make great sessions. Some players certainly seem to think the GM is in charge of their fun and if they aren't entertained, it's the GMs fault. You only get back what you put in, both as a player and a GM.

[@NefariousKoel]

You're absolutely right about video games influencing how people new to the hobby play. I've heard others mention it before, but now I realize how much effect that can have nowadays. Since I started gaming on the table, long ago in the far far away, before owning my first console or computer I probably overlooked it while assuming others had the same progression as I. Yet nowadays it's the other way around for younger generations. Thinking of the difference those experiences can make really puts a point on the contrast.

[@persephoneunderground845]

Hitman is actually a great example of plot without railroad. It actually has tons of prepared "opportunities" that you can choose to pursue, usually revealed through conversations it's hard not to overhear, as well as the ability to ignore them and do something else, all baked in. So there is something to work with if a player is kinda stuck, but nothing forcing them to follow a particular path either. Some players want just one right answer, but most just want a few roads to choose from, rather than a railroad, and the option to go off-road if they want. I admit it takes a while to get used to differences between RPGs and video games, mostly because they're the closest frame of reference starting players have to work with. Ok, it takes time to access my backpack and I can permanently die. I also actually am allowed to try things the GM hasn't explicitly told me are options (nice!). That's an adjustment! (Minor phrasing edits)

[@bsparky01]

So awesome to see your 100k play button on the wall! 😁 "Train" of thought on "railroads", I see what to did thier sir lol DMs and players have a relationship, just like _all_ relationships honest communication is key to keep things from becoming a problem. Regardless of what the complication is, or what caused to to arise, being honest and open with each other is always the best. It's hard, you might hurt someone's feelings, but that's life in general. I'd rather have my players tell me they don't like how X is done, or don't like it when I do Y than have someone explode at the table or leave the game.

[@domenceuspriest]

YES!! Thank you for bringing up this issue, Seth. And you are spot-on with the influences of video games in setting expectations and playstyles of newer and younger players. I think about games like Skyrim, which I love dearly, and how the temptation to exploit the game and NPCs is always looming, even over relatively benevolent players. There's nothing wrong with enjoying video games, but there are so many differences in how a live TTRPG is run with a human GM vs a video game run by a computer. In some games, you can cycle through all dialogue options with no impacts, or keep interacting in negative/antisocial ways with an NPC with no negative repercussions, actions that don't go down so well for a human-run tabletop game. Another big issue is how video games encourage players to see a GM in a live game as basically a computer with no feelings or flexibility, one of my pet peeves as a GM. The issues go beyond players who want limited, clear choices and obvious rewards, and affects a whole bunch of expectations and styles at the table. It's something I have to remind my players (juveniles and adults) of periodically - that a tabletop RPG is usually going to run very differently from a computer RPG. Thank you again for opening up this conversation!

[@F2t0ny]

The dweebles story is kinda crazy. At first I thought RPGs just aren't for him but it's cool that you ran dungeons for him.

[@boremjc]

I'm a dweeble and honestly RPG are still really fun. published modules and pre-written adventure are especially good for that

[@citcoin-official2681]

Alright, New Seth Video, New Tabletop Tale. This is the story of an Eastern Fantasy Game in which my Six players became known by the realm as 'The Magnificent Army', and how that lead to a completely made-up Clan holding Nearly half of the Lands of the Great Red Moon. We had Three Samurai Warriors originally from different clans, Two Shinobi and a Noble Lady who was a sorceress. The Three Samurai each had a completely different fighting style, one employed the 'Stone' style and wielded an enormous spear, One had the 'Raging Sea' Style, and fought with two shorter blades rather than one big one, the Third had the 'Flame' style, with a properly oversized Sephiroth-esque katana. The two Shinobi were brother and sister (in character, they were just friends at the table) but they couldn't have been more different either. The Guy had decided to lean into the more Mystical Ninja arts, while the Girl was a fast-talking Assassin with a tool or a weapon for any situation. The Sorceress/Noble Lady was the group's main diplomat, but her words were backed by the force of blistering winds and the blazing sun. Our First Few Adventures, took them from total strangers who had barely held a blade before to a unit of Battle-hardened badasses who would each have given their lives for the team. By our Sixth adventure, the peasants and a few local nobles were spreading tales of a 'magnificent army' that 'fell like thunderbolts upon the legions of scoundrels and demons of the realm'. These stories were massively exaggerated, after all there were only six of them, they may have beaten all sorts of raiders and monsters, but not all at the same time; and they definitely didn't *always* fall like thunderbolts. At the end of what was either our seventh or eighth adventure; "The Undead Bandits of Demon Mountain", they had retrieved an Artifact that let them call forth their own undead army: The Deathless Guard, made up of the Spirits killed by the Undead bandits that still wanted to fight for Good in the mortal world. Restless souls that wanted to make sure that no-one shared their fates, and wanted to leave the world better than when they found it, but never had the chance in life. They hid their Undeath under specially made Armour, so the Six never needed to explain. Since they now had a Permanent Army, composed of both the Deathless Guard and the folk they'd saved along the way, they needed to Legitimise themselves or else risk the wrath of the other kingdoms of the Red Moon Shogunate. They called their little found-family the Arashi-Ryu, (Storm Dragons) which was the Clan name they'd use from then on in formal meetings. Now the Mystical Ninja and the Sorceress had become romantically involved, So had the Flame Samurai and the Assassin. The two couples married in order to more easily explain their bizarre clan status, and just in time too; our next adventure hook was about to arrive. The Daimyo Zhu-Ho of Blossoming Crescent, the region they were based in, had come to solicit the Service of 'The Magnificent Army' for the Shogun's war against the neighbouring nation of Golden Fields. Golden Fields was ruled by a Vampire King from a faraway land, who was trying to invade Red Moon. Zhu-Ho had been promised the position of Ruling Golden Fields once the Vampire king was defeated in the Shogun's counterattack, so in order to secure victory, hiring the Magnificent Army with the promise of his lands in Blossoming Crescent was a No-Brainer. But when he checked them out, He'd never heard of the 'Arashi-Ryu' so he asked for their history. However only the Lady was from a real and surviving noble house, Two of the three warriors were just low-born elite fighters who found the armour and weapons of heroic Samurai long dead. The two Shinobi and last Warrior were the final survivors from Clans wiped out by the Lightning Demon War, The campaign had started with the aftermath of the final battle of that war, with their main party motivation being finishing off the Storm Lord and the stragglers of his army. So what they decided to do, was claim that they had all Lost their original clans in the War, then explained that the Three Warriors and the Guy Shinobi had become sworn brothers. They also claimed to Descend from the Heroes who's equipment they... retrieved. They finally asserted that they teamed up like this because of a prophecy that 'when the four clans fall, a Storm Dragon shall rise in the Crescent.' Guy and Girl Shinobi were disguised in full Samurai armour so the Daimyo wouldn't think they were dishonourable. Girl Shinobi had to find a chance to sneak away and come back out of the armour, because Zhu-Ho requested to meet the Flame Samurai's wife, then she had to sneak away again because her initial excuse to leave was preparing the Deathless Guard to show Zhu-Ho. After seeing the Deathless Guard and the Five Commanders, (and the Sorceress of course) Zhu-Ho was so blown away that he offered his entire domain in Blossoming Crescent, to 'restore the storm dragon to it's rightful place' if they could ensure the Shogun's victory over the Vampire Invader. And that they did. The Magnificent Army and their actual army were able to conquer the Vampire king, and became Daimyo in their own right, direct vassals to the Shogun.

[@lordbahj]

Regarding gamers coming from video games to TTRPG’s, this can be contributed greatly to game design from the early 2000’s. D&D 3e as well as other games really ramped up the character “build” mentality which is desirable for video gamers coming to the hobby.

[@sakawi]

I think the rise of "character builds" has made players a lot less accepting of dying in RPGs. I have been playing with someone whose character would have died 3 or 4 times now but each time the DM makes an excuse and brings them back so the player won't quit the game. It really breaks my immersion and makes my actions feel inconsequential.

[@rpgchronicler]

I honestly think this co-incided with the rise of MMORPGs as well.

[@MorinehtarTheBlue]

@@sakawi I'm going to point on that one of my favourite aspects of the hobby also does this in spades. The RP side with story and investment actually does this more. Because with story there is much more sunk cost fallacy where you don't want to simply clear the slate and start over just when the story was getting good.

[@dutch6857]

"It's *always* the GM's fault!" Well, whenever someone says "It's always [fill in the blank]", they're always wrong. Wait, what did I just do there? (Seriously, with the amount of dumb-ass blanket statements out there, I really feel that 'Nuance and Context' should be a core subject in school at every grade level

[@rpgchronicler]

Nuance tends to be lost in text, especially in places like reddit and forums.

[@dutch6857]

@@rpgchronicler Too true! I've noted it's absence in live speech all too often as well. Online habits getting imprinted and bleeding into the real world? Dunno

[@igorarmellini1041]

A factor that I believe contributes to this is that many DM's, especially new ones, also believe that anything that goes wrong is on them. So they will accept blame even if it's something they can do nothing about.

[@justindunmyre3000]

100% agree. Thank you! This really was a missing piece to JA’s blog. I had a player get quite upset at other players at the table for not taking a hook. “The DM clearly wants us to go do this mission, why are you ignoring the story?!” and I had to step in and say that it really wasn’t the case, they were free to pursue it or ignore it. This player always feels relief when they feel like they’re doing “what they’re supposed to do” even though I’m the only DM they’ve had and I like to think of myself as being quite far away from any rails!

[@SSkorkowsky]

I had one player once who would try to help me out by steering the game the direction he thought I wanted it to go. Problem was he always decided the direction he thought I wanted to go was some crazy batshit direction no one else in the room could understand why we wanted to go that way. Eventually, after some discussion, he stopped trying to "help" me.

[@sonic064]

One of my ttrpgs groups have the tendency to go in a straight line (even when I throw them a lot of bones and literally tell them they can explore the other rooms or find another way) and somehow their weakness are literally doors.

[@sinisterthoughts2896]

I can relate. I once had a party get I'm a screaming match in front of a door about how to handle it, the whole time I was mentioning they hadn't said out of character. They settled on lighting a bomb, another would open the door, the bomb holder had readied action to throw it in, then the person at the door would use their remaining turn to shut and hold the door. The ogre on the other side of door listening to their screaming natch locked and barred the door. So they lit the bombe kicked the door, which failed to open, and played hot potato with the bomb until they had to throw it in the opposite direction. I found it hilarious, and when I explained what had happened luckily the players thought it was hilarious as well and it killed all the tension. Most door scenarios don't end so well though...

[@andrewtomlinson5237]

40+ years in this hobby has taught me one thing. You can analyse it up hill and down dale, but in almost every case of a game going wrong that I have ever experienced the truth of the situation has been this... The person who fucks up a game is inevitably the one who thinks it's all about them. That can be the DM or a player, but the person who cares the least about the rest of the people at the table is usually (to the point of it being almost a given...) the one most likely to do the most damage.

[@SSkorkowsky]

This checks out as true.

[@okayhonks]

More than just the amount of structure or "rails" provided, this same dynamic is at play when it comes to the fun, the energy, and the excitement of the table. In the past handful of years, we have added an entirely new kind of player: the streaming audience. They carry in different habits and expectations than people get from movies or from video games, and some of them we haven't really reckoned with as a hobby just yet. They watch a streamed game, and it is SO FUN. The excitement and investment are palpable, there are cool moments of all emotional shades, and they think, "I WANT THAT." So they sign up for a game and go in *expecting to be Wow'd*... but they don't engage with the world. They want elaborate locations and deep NPCs, but they barely have a handle on their own characters appearance, background, beliefs, goals... They speak in game mechanics, rather than descriptively... and they wonder why it doesn't feel as "alive" as the game they watched. They want memorable characters with personality quirks and voices... but they don't even speak as their character, voice or not. "Bob does this" instead of "I do this." And they wonder why it's just not pulling them in like the game they watched. Basically, they lament that their GM isn't Matt Mercer, but they're not bringing their Liam O'Brien to the table.

[@jesnemo2677]

I found your channel right when I finally began playing about two years ago (always wanted to just never had the right social group/ was too weird to know how to find one) and it has paved my role as player and now GM/DM as I start running. It’s as if you’re some kind of chaos magician and could read into my table at the moment. There have been ongoing problems DM has tried to address to no avail as well as others that are more… fundamental… and this video speaks to that. I’ve noticed his shift and due to me starting to run stuff I’ve asked him questions about certain scenarios leading to an open conversation about some of the stuff going on and resulting in an honest look at group; what is good, what is toxic, how can it be salvaged, what can’t, and how to move FORWARD, and now languish and dwell because no DnD is better than bad DnD. I love your videos because they’re so honest and I want to thank you because it was exactly what I needed to hear from a seasoned player/writer and only solidifies that we’re not out of line. Thank you for the time you spend contributing to the positive culture of the hobby and building a safe space for those who deserve it. The DM in group is amazing, I’ve played with people who’ve been running longer than he’s been alive and this guy trumps them all and I hate seeing what I’ve observed and as a player have been somewhat limited in addressing other than my roundabout “hey check out this cool video on SOCIAL CONTRACTS” I don’t know what I’m getting at. I’m rambling but thank you! Take care and be well.

[@Blackmuseops]

One time I had a really good reason to blame my DM but it all came to naught when the door got kicked in by Scott Brown

[@Indubidably0]

I've had bad GM's, but far more often I've been part of a party with a bad player or had to deal with a bad player as a GM. Currently one group I'm running through Forge of Fury has a problem player. The guy outright refuses to learn his character, which is a Sorcerer that he keeps running into melee combat while ignoring that he even has spell slots let alone what any of his spells(that he chose) does. He complains that I won't break rules for him, gets upset that he can't Persuade an orc to shove his own ax up his ass(that's not a joke, he literally tries to do things like this) and seems to generally expect a degenerate parody of every campaign and 1-shot. Now, I'm an extrovert with zero fear of confrontation, so I've confronted him about it many times, both in private, and during the game when his disruption is aggravating the other players. He's just a bad player and no amount of good GM'ing is going to change that. I'm about one more session from booting him, which sucks because we're all good friends and I know he'll take it personally. Blaming the GM all the time is a copout by other bad players. Period. I've been GM for 20+ years and the volume of players that keep coming back speaks for itself to my skill at it, and I quit feeling guilty about bad players and their defenders long ago.

[@DarkVeghetta]

I don't quite understand what's so hard to grasp - 'Would this work irl?' is a good guideline for any skill check and 'We all want to play a serious game, stop trolling or else.' is also pretty straight-forward. Once that's repeated a few times, getting kicked from the group is obviously on the table and, since you don't mind confrontation, I presume you've stated as much. Given he's been forewarned, he has only himself to blame. Ofc, blaming others for the things they themselves have done is a time-honored last resort of the hypocrite, but that's the sort of friend that should, at best, be kept at arm's length, and not brought to the gaming table in the first place.

[@daveshif2514]

Tell him “no hard feelings but everyone else is trying to play checkers, youre trying to play poker. You just cant play two games at once you have to agree to play one game together.”

[@vintagezebra5527]

Loved this video! I think your point about how many blogs, vlogs, and videos are about GAMEMASTER practice, behavior, prep, and duty is DEFINITELY because GMs are MUCH more likely to be the ones reading and watching them. We’re the ones willing and excited to do the extra work to try to create ever improving experiences for our friends/players at the table. How selfish is it to expect someone, engaging in their HOBBY, to spend umpteen hours a week preparing all that goes into a 3-5 hour game and then criticize them because the scenario was a little too on the rails or was too open?! According to the internet, GMs are supposed to be systems’ experts, game designers, improv actors, tacticians, wealthy enough to have multiples of every miniature and/or crafty enough to make the rest, social scientists, behaviorists . . . when we’re really just a buddy looking to make sure EVERYONE has a good time for a few hours on Thursday night!

[@GMspiration]

“Well, animals are a lot like people, Mrs. Simpson. Some of them act badly because they’ve had a hard life or have been mistreated. But, like people, some of them are just jerks.” -Warden

[@colinflanigan9153]

This video really got me thinking 🤔. The blaming of the GM for all problems could be viewed as a backwards way of taking a players agency. Saying the GM is solely at fault for any problem then makes the players’ characters simply playing cards 🃏 in a game of story solitaire. Players have power. Power to make a game better or worse. Maybe we need more than just two accepted analogies for RPG adventures, Railroading 🚂 versus the Sandbox 🏜 Maybe we can look to climbing 🧗‍♀️ a Mountain 🏔 as a metaphor. There are many paths to the top but some faces are easier to traverse. Again great video and I look forward to more on the subject.

[@Escorpius17]

Yah, there is a new weird vibe amongst newer players about how its "their game" and not the DM's and I think it alludes to the issues you presented in this video. I love the title.

[@sumdude4281]

One of my players sent me a link to Critical Roll 5-6 years ago and said I wish you were this good of a DM. I emailed him back and said I wish you were that good of a player. Everything is always laid at the DM's feet. I also had some players who were always searching for the rails. Main Character Syndrome...wonderful! Yes, not just at the table but IRL too.

[@adiveler]

Speaking of puzzle video games, there is a sub-genre called Problem-Solving / Open-Ended Puzzles, which, as the names suggest - are known for puzzles that need to be tackle like problems, which means, there is no definite answer for them, and there is no such things as "How the devs intended" (Usually something that demonstrate an assembly line like Infinifactory and Opus Magnum, or programming like Exapunks). And another great thing about those type of puzzles is - once you've manage to think of a solution, you can come back to that level and try to optimize it (Fewer assembly parts, less code lines, or alter your solution to get the job done much run faster). So, your puzzle loving friend may want to avoid them!

[@reimannsum9077]

A fair and balanced reflection on the topic of players' and GMs' potential culpability for issues encountered at the table, calling us to interrogate our own failings while being patient and open with those of others around us. This doesn't belong on the internet. Not KZbin appropriate at all.

[@Jimmyinvictus]

In my experience, the best campaigns I've ever run are like jazz, with my players and I riffing off each other. I'm refereeing a group playing OSE and starting a second campaign with Swords and Wizardry. I really emphasize player-driven emergent gameplay, but I try to have at least two big hooks in a given area along with several side hooks delivered by rumors, npc interactions, etc. Retaining a balance between player agency and knowing when to give them nudges is part of being a good, adaptive GM. If you're new to GM'ing, don't be afraid to make mistakes and get feedback from your players. If your players are having fun, you're going to have more fun, and vice versa.

[@scottknudsen6611]

What you say here about video games really hit me. I remember when solid RPG games started coming out, starting with things like Zelda on the NES and graduating to the glory of the SSI gold box games. We accepted the strictly linear plots because we knew that’s all the computer hardware was capable of providing, at the same time looking forward to the day that the hardware could more closely match our tabletop experience. The idea that people are going the opposite way and wanting the tabletop to emulate the machines is horrifying to me. Everything else you said really boils down to the RPG Social Contract. Even the best GM can’t read minds, there has to be a good faith back & forth to ensure everyone is playing the game they wanted to play.

[@originaluddite]

Looking back over the last game I ran, I realize that the players wanted dictation from me at a chapter by chapter level but not a scene by scene level. They liked that there was a semi-planned narrative direction as long as they had some say in exactly how to move it along.

[@haywirewindgod]

With the railroad issue, I think there is a difference between railroad and roller-coaster. Its a fine line, but they're both on rails, but one is boring and forgetful, but the other is fun and rememberable.

[@markcochrane9523]

Damn, that's a good metaphor, I'm gonna have to steal that.

[@bigblue344]

This is video games but Civvie 11 said it himself that the upside to having a more linear game is that you can control what kind of set pieces you can introduce to your players to be more memorable.

[@russelljacob7955]

Way I compare is there is a difference between being on the rails or following the rails. Rails are a path. Following them on foot lets you see sites and are areas where can wander off, or take a path. But if nothing out there is nothing out there. If decide to cut across barren nothing to shortcut to end vs the scenic route? Is on player. Vs being on rails means you are hooked up and rolling. No choice in where. The best campaigns are ones where players understand there are borders on the game world. With that understanding the players can work, react, and enjoy the environment together. Limits are not railroading.

[@crusherjones6809]

BLESSED WITH THE SETH!!!! This is great, thanks.

[@misterevil1967]

The Blame Thrower! One of the most fun fantasy weapons I've ever seen.

[@davidhumphries2000]

I feel like I need to say thank you for initiating my own lightbulb moment as to the hows and whys of my GM style. I agree absolutely that at least some of the baggage we bring to the table (as GMs or players) is based on our preferences for video games (for those of us who started on video games prior to to picking up tabletop RPGs). My favourite style of games is things like KOTOR, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age - RPGs that, whilst not sandboxy or completely open, do have some amount of freedom as to how the characters go about resolving the plot. That said, there will be an optimal way of doing so, or you run the risk of having party members die. This is absolutely how I create campaigns. Thankfully the one I'm running right now is for a single player who loves the story that I'm creating for her - it's a great example of player/GM compatibility. I think a big part of the problem, is also a matter of player entitlement. I hate to make it a generational issue, but a lot of millennials (my age group) and zoomers can be quite entitled generally, and also have a bad habit of blaming their every character flaw on society or their parents. In game this can play out as players expecting the GM to accede to their every whim in terms of making the plot, worldbuilding, and everything else conform to the players' expectations. As others have said here, that line about no such thing as bad players, only bad DMs is complete rubbish - and I think this mindset is absolutely something that is at least part of what is wrong with a lot of the tabletop community. Thanks Seth, both for your insight, and for helping me realise something about my own mentality as a GM

[@cetx]

Making the game the responsibility of one participant is a bad idea. TTRPG isn't a stage performance, and the DM has no more or less responsibility to "entertain" or control or discipline players than anyone else at the table. It's a group effort.

[@GameMastersWorkshop]

Another quote from Dave Arnes, and the rest at TSR: "You're doing it wrong! A good game master can make any game work!". That was the general response from TSR forty plus years ago when they asked repeatedly about rules imbalances and what to do about murder hobo players (YES! We had them back then too!) Here's the deal the key word is "CAN", not "WILL", and that makes the difference, between a "possibility" and a "certainty". Needless to say they were attacking their customers, to defend their product. Rather then admit that their rules were BAD and had problems, they choose to throw their own fans under the bus. Yes, you can have a bad game master, you can have bad players, and even the rules can be a disaster. You work with what you got, and if that thing doesn't work, you need to change. Some times the game master isn't fit. Some times one or more of the players needs to go, and some times the rules need updating. Either way, if you're having a bad experience you need to stop, evaluate what's going on and move on from there.

[@kiarapickard7339]

Dave Arneson

[@GameMastersWorkshop]

@@kiarapickard7339 Thanks 👍

[@thetimebinder]

I blame that quote and mantra for 80% of every problem with the way TTRPG are played. I blame 80% of bad rules on Gygax's "The players don't even need to buy our books [because the DM is just going make everything up anyway]". The original D&D authors were terrible at making "games". It's no wonder their company "fired" them [through now illegal shares manipulation].

[@Winterydee]

GM's are people!! Player's are people!! An one thing I have learned throughout my life is that "Every person is flawed and will make mistakes!". Also "Every person is different and will have different tastes and interests than others". So yeah sometimes it is the GM's fault, sometimes it is the Player's fault and sometimes it is really nobodies fault and just different tastes and interests. Sadly most people do not want to self analysis and/or accept the fact that they have messed up or in the wrong. Due to this one of the easiest ways is to avoid doing either of those is to immediately shift the blame on to someone or something else. Great video, even if it was a little looser than most of you regular ones. However that was to be expected and you did say so in the beginning. If any one takes issue with it, well that is on them. Besides "Rant" type videos tend to be more off the cuff anyway.

[@goofygoober9719]

I am a jaded, sarcastic jerk, who hates most things, but even I can't hate Seth. God speed, you wholesome beacon of niceness

[@reidurbjorn]

I most definitely agree that GMs are not 100% at fault. Some folks don't realize that it's a cooperative game of give and take. Players and GMs both have bad experiences,biases,etc. That's no excuse for ruining anyone's fun. Ive played with some pretty awful people (both GMs and players) before so I like it when clear boundaries are expressed at the beginning of a game, that way no one can be a dick and then feign ignorance. I will say one thing though, I think the GM is the representative of these boundaries and thus has an obligation to remind people when they're crossing them. I've seen too many instances where well behaved players will confront players with bad behavior,but the troublesome player won't listen to anyone but the GM. Ultimately though,finding personalities and gaming styles that mesh well is difficult and everyone needs to express a little empathy. If someone repeatedly takes advantage of that empathy,then they're not a good fit. Thanks for another video Seth and screw the haters! You are one of the best content creators that KZbin has! Keep on truckin Choomba! As a side note, my GM is one of the guys that worked with you on Interlock Unlimited, so he's an experienced guy. I feel sad for people who don't have the extraordinary level of GM that I have. I'm incredibly spoiled. I wonder if he'll see this and give me extra IP. 🤣🤣

[@Meatball996]

my dog died, why didn't the GM just fudge the roll, not fair

[@RedmarKerkhof]

I'm so glad to hear someone else recognize the influence of video games on players. It's something that has always frustrated me. I also think that Adventurers' League plays a part. It's many people's first foray into TTRPG and it is equally inconsequential, confirming people's video game playstyle to be "correct".

[@davidhobbs6292]

I've seen toxic players really ruin potential GMs. I have several friends that have quit running games at all after various table behaviors... but the games would suffer as they tried to engineer things around the toxic players... But you can't negotiate with games terrorists. If someone I know wants to start DMing now, I help curate the player pool, and I often try to sit in for the first arc of a game at minimum to try and set a player example. Since I've started that, none of the GMs I've trained have quit, and with resources like your videos, it helps them realize when a player may be a bad fit. Thanks for the videos and keep up the fight!

[@Jan-gh7qi]

This raises an important point, that ist often overlooked: some people just like linear play.

[@MorinehtarTheBlue]

That's really it. Railroading is a loaded phrase. It's an accepted pejorative but also means different things to different people. Rules lawyer and meta gaming are also like this. They can be useful at times but if two people are on separate pages about what they mean they are rendered useless.

[@Thrasher225]

Love your vids. I'm always down for a rant.

[@Rom2814SK]

Great video as usual! Definitely have seen the "every problem is a GM problem" viewpoint on Reddit, Twitter etc. From what I've seen, most of the conflict in the "free roam" vs. "on rails" game play can be chalked up to personality difference: nerds and fantasy fans are high on Openness, but some of us are ALSO high on Consciousness (Order), which means "open world" type gameplay can be aversive or at least "not fun." For me, I want something in the middle as a GM or as player - don't like completely open world, but love when there's a mix like Mass Effect, Skyrim, Fallout, Grand Theft Auto, etc. - give me a story that gives me a focus, but give me freedom of action in the type of character I play and the choices I make (with meaningful outcomes where possible). I'd also take a look at research on the "paradox of choice." I have had players feel overwhelmed and stressed when they don't have good story hooks to make a decision about what to do next.

[@B1omaH]

Another point I want to add. Players often severely underestimate their impact on the table's fun. I've been with my old great players at other tables of not so good DMs, and we were having a blast, because they constantly thought what they can do to make the game more fun. It is what separates OK players from really great players for me. I wish more players would think what they can do to make the game more entertaining and see their impact

[@zj871023]

"There are no bad players or characters, only bad DM's" Modern social media in a nutshell, it's always someone else's fault, never theirs :)

[@HarrLeighQuinn]

I stopped playing for many years. I never played 4e and have recently come back. I had the exact same thought about the players trying to play TTRPG like a video game and have actually said, "Don't treat this like a video game! We can go play video games if all you want to do is kill stuff".

[@Nephanor]

You know, one of the reasons I stopped playing DnD as much was because of your number one culprit, video games. Like you, I love my Vidya, especially open world or non linear stuff, and I saw DnD going too much like a video game, and that made me less desiring to play it. Got an idea for you, something you may wanna talk about. Saw a vid recently by I think it was Ginny Di where she was talking about how she was wrong to hate on min maxing, and she briefly hit on a topic that really was one I could go for HOURS on. How new players coming into tabletop want to change the GAME rather than just realizing they can change their own table rules and leave everyone else alone. They see something they personally don't like and want to stop it from Everyone's table, by having the rules/world changed officially, rather than just homebrewing or house ruling it. Some of this comes from the newbie "don't wanna break the rules" habit where they see the official rules as the only rule that matters, and others come from just being terrible people who have to make everything about them and this is all just a method to gain power. There's obviously other reasons, but those two stand out as most common. And new tabletoppers need to learn rule 0 of tabletop. It's the most important rule.

[@SSkorkowsky]

I have a rough outline for one on Min/Maxing and Power Gamers. I get a lot of comments about how Power Gamers are the worst ever. The video will essentially be hat there's nothing wrong with Power Gamers as long as that's what the table wants. Its simply a personal preferences thing. A Power Gamer playing with a bunch of non-Power Gamers, that can lead to some problems. But a whole table to Min/Maxed Power Gamers is glorious. As far as the whole People Wanting to Change the Whole Game to Meet Their Tastes, that's more of a quiet corner in a bar and a few drinks topic for me. It's not an issue that I've noticed in the games I play. I'm all for a game evolving to meet the times and audience (all of the games I play come with 'X Edition' in the title because the game has evolved), but from my very distant spot on the sidelines of this topic, I think many of the more problematic cases could be solved simply by those people playing new game systems rather than trying to force their current game system into being something else. I dunno. My own history with, "They need to fix the game to my tastes" quickly dissipated when I started playing different systems and discovered ones that could do what i wanted.

[@Nephanor]

@@SSkorkowsky That's actually another reason I hadn't thought of, that instead of changing the table rules, just changing to a different system would be better. Part of the reason I am running into this "change the game to suit me" mentality is sadly an issue for me as my usual gaming group is long gone. I've moved so many times in my life, and lost touch with so many friends, and they have moved on too, that I am back to looking for a new group. As goofy as it sounds, it's like dating again after a decades long marriage, all the rules for dating have changed, and all the people I run into have completely different needs than I am used to or prepared to deal with. Ironically this analogy and thought process even made me ponder the idea of making a website that behaved a lot like a dating one, but was for players and GMs to find each other based on their own individual play styles and what is important to them. And this is why I like you Seth, like me, you are an old timer in tabletop, and understand how things in games have always been pretty open, accepting and awesome towards anyone wanting to play, but you can also speak to the new folks in a way that they can listen to and agree with. And a lot like you, I've come to love my skill based games more than level based.

[@cameroncowen5011]

I always love your videos no matter what the topic is, tysm for all your help

[@flakstruk-8481]

So i'd add a point to the conversation, In one of seth's earlier videos he mentioned how some bad players think theyre representative of every player at the table. I think this applies here

[@MatthewCampbell765]

With railroading, you remind me of something. The game Mass Effect had trouble taking off in Japan. This is because, when playing Mass Effect, a lot of players from Japan often interpreted the choices as a puzzle, rather than as player expression. This leads to them not being sure what the "correct" choice was in a given situation.

[@SSkorkowsky]

That's interesting. I've always been fascinated with how different cultures approach games. I wonder if the Japanese preference for 'puzzles to be solved' is part of why Call of Cthulhu is the most popular RPG there. I'd always assumed it was more to do with the Japanese not having the same cultural connection to the European-style Fantasy Setting that draws Westerners to D&D, but maybe the solving a mystery and investigation aspects of Call of Cthulhu have more to do with it.

[@MatthewCampbell765]

@@SSkorkowsky There is quite a bit European fantasy (and even D&D outright)-inspired media from Japan, so I don't think that's too much of an issue. But going back to games: You can see this difference in Japanese Computer RPGs and Western Computer RPGs, I think. Most video game genres are invented in America or Japan and emulated by the other, but CRPGs are notable in that both countries invented them independently of each other, and both had different priorities in doing so. Western RPGs tried to emulate the individual experience of playing in a tabletop RPG, things like making your own character and making choices, getting into the role of that character. Japanese RPGs, by contrast, tried more to emulate more the collective dynamic of a D&D adventuring party. Thus you tend to have pre-built characters that fit specific roles. The idea is that they can get into the same sort of group drama and create a narrative similar to what a bunch of people playing a tabletop RPG might make.

[@TheSmart-CasualGamer]

Tactical, strategic gameplay for Video RPGs from Japan CANNOT be beaten. The whole industry seems to have it down, it's like balance is coded into their souls.

[@CareerKnight]

@@SSkorkowsky JRPGs are typically fairly different from their western counterparts with many not even having narrative choices or choices that don't impact the main plot at all. The few that do tend to have choices that are intended to be right or wrong with the incorrect choice leading to a fail state quickly or getting a bad ending. Western RPGs on the other hand tend to pride themselves on how well they can hide the rails with their choices or even have multiple "correct" paths/satisfying endings.

[@gmjeremy3627]

I've always enjoyed your videos, including the game mastering and playing tips videos that I almost never find useful for anything other than maybe a reminder. (I said I enjoy them!!!) I love your adventure and game review videos, and I usually watch your gaming tips videos so I can recommend them to my players and know what I'm recommending. I appreciate all of your videos, but I am really glad you made this one. As of right now, I appreciate this one the most.

[@gmjeremy3627]

Actually, I could have phrased that better. Being able to give my players a link to one of your videos for them to watch and know what I'm talking about, or want them to know, is extremely useful. Thanks again!

[@maydaymemer4660]

Enjoyed the video but what took it to the next level is as a fan of yours for a while I was not expecting you to bring up Hitman. Its my favorite game franchise and it was not only an unexpected crossover of interests but Hitman does work well with DnD discussion as it has this mix of sandbox and story. Something like Minecraft or Garry’s Mod are too sandboxy to be like DnD. Hitman is great as a comparison because the characters and world are set in stone - a map is like a module - but how they interact is up to the player. And it is a case of even tho there are rails that a player can go down the option paralysis still kicks in because the amount of rails are in the hundreds. A lot of Hitman scenarios can come across as DnD war stories, 47 can be a player who uses an explosive golf ball and gets caught and the DM is like Diana or just the story itself trying to find a way to salvage a colossal toss up and make sure the player’s reputation in-campaign isnt so hurt by a mistake that the story cant go on. Tho im not a DnD player just a fan of yours so that might be an innacurate analogy A question I would like ask is what Hitman levels do you think would make good DnD scenarios? Or is there any times youve made a scenario or character that you intentionally or unintentionally released is a Hitman level? Im curious about that Great thumbnail btw