The Power Hungry Podcast: Simon Michaux

Simon Michaux is an associate professor of geometallurgy at the Geological Survey of Finland which published his 1,000-page report about the amount of mining that will be required if the world attempts to quit using hydrocarbons. In this episode, he discusses why copper will be the key constraint for alt-energy, the “flamboyantly stupid” decisions being made by European policymakers, and why the pending limits to economic growth will require a new “social contract and a radically different system of governance” from what we have today. (Recorded November 11, 2022)
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[@bendeleted9155]

It's not that everyone that calls you a kook doesn't believe your idea. Some don't like it because they don't gain control and make money from it.

[@mr.makeit4037]

As Simon has stated before, those are the cornucopians.

[@artfuldiggs2206]

I know a young Canadian mining engineer with similar views about the feasibility of producing the copper needed to achieve the green dreams of Trudeau and other left-leaning world leaders. I enjoyed hearing the details behind that view. The work Simon Michaux has done should be communicated and understood widely. Thanks to Robert Bryce for interviewing him.

[@JaseboMonkeyRex]

i love robert's facial expression as his understanding catches up with what Simon is saying... in fact i think this is a cultural experience we are all going to go through as it becomes obvious that all these green technologies are not up to the task to run our society. The conversation is going to have to go to a redesign of society towards a resemble a vision more like a native american / aboriginal vision of humanity's relationship with Nature ... humanity doesn't face a technical question to address the issues we face, we face a question of how to radically transform our culture.

[@mr.makeit4037]

I believe your saying that humanity will live within the world and nature more cooperatively. But because we have technology already in our mindset, it will be used as well, just less for a simpler society. We will be more regionally organized and nonlinear as Simon has said.

[@j85grim4]

I was thinking the same thing but I've watched a few of Robert's other interviews and he seems to be a right wing oil, gas and nuclear guy so he was very shocked when someone he thought was on his side popped his conservative fantasy bubble.

[@jato72]

Similar to the guest's message, the "Hirsch Report"; Peaking of World Oil Production: Impacts, Mitigation, and Risk Management was published in 2005. Here we are ~20 years later and civilization is spinning its wheels.

[@redcoltken]

We knew thus was what gonna happen

[@bellakrinkle9381]

Only those with common sense have wisdom! Not rocket science!

[@stringlarson1247]

Nice pun, btw.

[@stringlarson1247]

​@@redcoltkenyup. And will continue to do so until it can't.

[@GregoryJWalters]

Your Existential Challenges are well noted Simon! Carry on! Peace

[@greendatadialog]

Simon Michaux would deserve a Peace Nobel Prize for unearthing such an unanticipated situation. The impact is economical, industrial and ecological. Hence geo-political.

[@stringlarson1247]

Another great pun! The only thing I would change in your statement is 'unanticipated'. When I started learning about the resources and embedded energy involved in the mining, refining, and production of these 'green' technologies it was/is pretty obvious. I love that Simon has the huevos to do the research and prove it out.

[@michaelgoodrich2111]

It seems to me that the first question is what type of society we want or can support. If we are low-tech hunter gathers, we need small amounts of energy. (Not my choice) If we want to maintain or advance our present society, we will need large amounts of energy or vast improvements in efficiency. We will probably end up somewhere in between. As a friend of mine said, "I'm not a pessimist, I'm an optometrist with experience."

[@TheWhitehiker]

Simon on the beam! Scandalous the small number of viewers.

[@andrewwoods8153]

Conservatives and the greedy wealthy. I listened intentionally and keenly, loved it all. As you have said. As I believe the truth/Pathway is always in between. Overall great high value discussion.

[@TheWhitehiker]

Conservatives?

[@londen3547]

You misspelled the word 'conservatives' >>> l i b e r a l s.

[@andrewwoods8153]

😀, I get your point, but Conservatives create most problems, mostly the hybrids who want free market exploitation and no change. I know those who have a social conscience and are critical thinkers are the exception.

[@TheWhitehiker]

indeed!@@londen3547

[@swedishbob_7315]

Battles between platitudes and physics .. physics is undefeated

[@Rawdiswar]

Unbelievable that Bryce doesn't know who Martenson is. That really surprised me.

[@luckyPiston]

Who ?

[@nickkacures2304]

Who cares about Chris Martensens opinion anyway he doesn’t really know what he’s talking about

[@nickkacures2304]

I subscribed for awhile to peak prosperity but Chris was all over the map then he went through his paranoia phase and I couldn’t follow him anymore plus he gave horrible advice

[@nickkacures2304]

In regards to the Alaska Bristol River copper pebble mine it was mostly shut down by people who make a living and live well by having a salmon 🍣 fishery and I have seen them to be very politically conservative but decided on what is best for their environment and community

[@nickkacures2304]

In regards to the Minnesota twin metals project that is on the border of the most visited Wilderness area in the United States (boundary waters) with visitors in the millions our border area is an engine of economic growth with an intact wilderness

[@richardha7434]

Hawaiians had the answer. They had no metals and no money. They had an economy that required giving more than one receives. Yet, they had to match resources with their needs. Their narrative that came down through generations, treated all living things like Divine Brethren’s. Hence, the fish people, tree people, bird people etc. they traversed the largest ocean in the world without cell phones and telescopes.

[@chapter4travels]

You can choose to live that way for yourself but don't ever try to influence the way the rest of us do.

[@luckyPiston]

That last little piece up ta here , 58:36 , completely flys in the face of the consumption model that is currently being pushed on TV !

[@redcoltken]

At this point, I think John Michael Greer needs an invite

[@stringlarson1247]

I haven't heard from JMG in a long time. He's a great interviewee.

[@andrewwoods8153]

Brilliant

[@robertstilson9294]

Excellent interview🎉

[@patricksullivan3919]

Haha! Wind and solar without storage is a nonsense boondoggle

[@GregoryJWalters]

Wow! Super discussion! Hug your girls Simon, I have three boys. Love you both, keep up your great work and hope to bring into being a new culture beyond present physics limitations. Peace

[@Withnail1969]

Electrification is added complexity. We are going to have less complexity not more, going forward.

[@bentray1908]

The idea that spent fuel is complecated to manage is silly. It's called a pond. All you need is a pond or a pool. Lol.

[@JamesFitzgerald]

I dunno ....I was onboard until he started going off the rails at the end. I'll have to listen to this a few times. My kookism detector chirped a few times

[@mustavogaia2655]

yes, the last third of the interview got a little odd.

[@mattihalme81]

It’s fine being self-proclaimed independent thinker or misunderstood genius. But by being a Russian asset Michaux doesn’t turn into an even more independent thinker, he just turns into a yet another unoriginally thinking Russian asset. Finland doesn’t belong to the Russian zone of interest and Finland seeking military cooperation is no business of him.

[@nickkacures2304]

We do know that mining the easy stuff is what we have been doing but will technology advances in mining help narrow the gap of we need what need

[@JamesFitzgerald]

Talking about the "circular economy" engaged some of my bs detectors.

[@kvaka009]

The throughput of our resource use is too fast. Our whole cultural and economic system must change. And this must take place soon if a lot of suffering is to be avoided.

[@nickkacures2304]

How do you keep a growth economy going on a finite planet 🌎 2.3 percent growth is desired but we already need 5 planets of resources for every human to live a western lifestyle

[@aliendroneservices6621]

With the 10 billion years' worth of uranium in the earth's crust.

[@chapter4travels]

With enough energy, we can recycle anything and we have endless energy.

[@patricksullivan3919]

Read and learn.

[@marc.sellgren]

First, the statement "..at the moment it takes 20 years to build a nuclear reactor.." isn't true. Median build time today is something like 5-7 years. There are of course failed projects which has taken 20 years to complete, but setting the bar after them is not only misleading, it is simply false. Second, another statement "nuclear is expensive" is also misleading. If you let a nuclear facility operate its entire lifespan without political sticks in the spokes and what not, the electricity from it is incredibly cheap. Before Ringhals 1 and 2 were shut down in Sweden they produced electricity at 0.25 SEK/kWh which is like $0.02/kWh in todays money. And they only operated for 40-something years, they had at least 15-20 years more to go. Most people wouldn't be so negatively inclined towards nuclear if media actually shared correct information about it in the first place.

[@kvaka009]

Building includes identifying location, regulation, permits financing. Are you taking these into account? And are you saying that half of the nuclear plants are built faster than 7 years?

[@kvaka009]

Consider all the exteranilized cost of mining uranium etc. The whole point is that our economic system does not price energy or resources because it doesn't take ecological or social damage into account. Are you sure you're not making the same error?

[@chapter4travels]

@@kvaka009 Mining uranium is literally dirt cheap and easy because we need so little of it and by the way it's extracted. Modern reactors will only need about 2% of what current reactors do, so the mining drops by 98%. The US has enough stored "waste" to power the entire country, all energy needs, not just electricity, 100% of all energy for over 100 years.

[@nickkacures2304]

Even if technology can bring massive technological advances into existence quickly it sounds like humanity is bumping up against some limitations of growth we are already seeing massive declines in fish populations in the ocean we have somehow managed to survive an over 59 percent decline in insect populations including our most important species of pollinators I’m just wondering if we are past some tipping point either economic,climate,or environmental the would make this conversation moot already

[@luckyPiston]

Tipping point ? yeah i agree , the one that really sends that one home for me is the US pumping billions into war , weaponizing the dollar , reping nothing but economic destrution home and abrouad , the blood on there hands these people make hitler look like a boy scout , and the world can burn for all they care ! With the worlds largest economic power being run like that what other out come do u expect ?

[@crogeny]

A fascinating guest but the interview was spoiled by your constant unnecessary interruptions.

[@luckyPiston]

I've watched a bunch a these Michaux interviews and this was actually one of the better ones , like he asked some pretty good questions !

[@linmal2242]

With the increasing global population wanting more and better lifestyles, despite the supposed 'Limits to Growth' , the world population will keep accelerating and demand for that lifestyle will increase. This will keep the need for copper and other minerals high until exploitation stops or is arrested by regulators/society. Sooner or later the demand versus cost will be in favour of the expensive option of mining materials from space, either moon or asteroids. Won't happen soon though until the price and need is extreme !

[@kvaka009]

Our economic system is the problem. Markets that incentivezes profit cannot solve this.

[@felipearbustopotd]

Totally delusional approach is what I am taking away from this upload.