The power is finally in YOUR hands!

[@anguscampbell1533]

Sometimes it takes a little common sense to conserve electricity. An office building in Japan was having a high power bill due to the constant running of air conditioners during hot weather. When it was investigated it was found that the women who worked there complained it was to cold while the men complained it was to hot. Someone realized that it was the office attire that was the cause and not the AC. The women had to wear dresses with short sleeves while the men wore three piece suits and as soon as that rule was suspended the electricity used in A/C's went down dramatically. Part of a VPP is that when electricity consumption is well above normal, the VPP should notify the customer of such and offer solutions if possible.

[@petercaldwell2114]

What is the neame of the company in Japan?

[@Eclectic8]

Wait. So the guys and gals all traded uniforms? ...

[@noahway13]

I thought they were going to group them together-- men on the bottom floors, women on top.

[@noahway13]

@@petercaldwell2114 It is just something they heard....

[@anguscampbell1533]

@@noahway13 Nope the men started wearing short sleeve shirts and ditched their western style business jackets. Just pants, shoes, socks, short sleeve shirts and NO ties. Amazing what a little common sense can do.

[@NoHandleToSpeakOf]

Here is Ukraine, with rolling blackouts my VPP is an ecoflow delta that keeps my apartment running no matter what. No external communication or real time markers. Just gets things done dumb for starters.

[@redrockcrf4663]

While have considered for several years that we need something like these VPPs, I agree with starting simple. I live in a city where about 2 decades ago a powerline failed to the CBD as was out for more than a month. For the remaining area, people were asked to economise. AND they did. The immediate answer is for grids to have communication with people on when power is tight, and to have major appliances that I can control from anywhere so that my home usage avoids these pinch points. I can easily do that if the appliances and information is available.

[@mintakan003]

Yes. I'd go for an off-grid self consumption system. (First got exposed to this from the wildfires, and power shutoffs.). Something like Ecoflow or Bluetti and throw out a bunch of ground mounted solar panels. Also, gas and diesel generator. Just in case. Though with solar, one would need a lot less gas (or diesel). If one goes VPP, this assumes at least one can take care of oneself if needed. But in more peaceful times, there's more infrastructure, coordination, more participating in a larger grid. But first, one needs one's basis covered. For both adaptation, resilience, the trend is towards more de-centralized systems.

[@primesoftnz]

@@redrockcrf4663Auckland NZ I assume? If not, so did we.

[@Urduhkhan]

Good luck to you!

[@HairyNumbNuts]

Good luck over there, mate. In Australia we're as behind you as a small country on the other side of the world can be.

[@ElkoJohn]

Much obliged Dave, you are a thoughtful, kind person.

[@JustHaveaThink]

Thank you Elko. That's very kind feedback

[@deanwight]

As someone who spent part of his career surveying and reporting on demand response, I'm happy to see some of that potential now being realized...more than a decade on, but still good news. Dave's caveat about cybersecurity is important. Look no further than this summer's massive Windows outage and the disruptions that occurred after a single mishandled update to scare yourself about a similar event on a large grid. The larger these systems become, the more they will be targeted by lawbreakers and troublemakers.

[@mrbizi5652]

Great advice. I work in enterprise software sales. I actually think we could mitigate much of the concern by leveraging various technology architectures. We could have remote devices check in regularly with device certificates, known IP ranges, one way communications etc. but it would take folks like me working with folks like you to build something that no one has yet asked to be built which means we can’t yet monetize it which is a blocker for startups getting funding

[@HeyCheznut]

@@mrbizi5652Possibly the Energy Web chain (a blockchain tech) could be used for distribution security?

[@RupertBruce]

To be fair to the bad guys, this one wasn't really their fault...

[@HeyCheznut]

@@deanwight Energy Web Chain; use blockchain to secure the virtual energy transformation!!?

[@Eclectic8]

Besides "lawbreakers and troublemakers", shouldn't monopolists and fascists appear on that list?

[@davidkendall2272]

I live in Edmonds, WA (USA) and have operated as a microgrid since 2018 installation of two Powerwall-2 batteries to complement our 2012 installed 13.2 kWh solar PV system. Works great for us and we use zero grid energy for ~8months of the year, and export ~50% of our excess solar energy back to grid via Net Metering. We supplement the grid in our all electric home and also charge two EVs off our solar paneled roof. The Tesla application makes living with our existing system easy and has been very satisfying for us.

[@rogerphelps9939]

Tesla ripped you off over the Powerwalls. Battery prices are now only around $50 per kwh. This means that the value of the 27kwh in your Powerwalls is about $1350. Bet you paid Tesla more than ten times as much. Anyway V2L and V2L will kill scams like Powerwalls stone dead.

[@bjb7587]

Sounds great, but it requires a whole lot of cash to achieve. I've had three quotes just for solar panels on my roof over the past seven years and I couldn't make any of them break even for fifteen years. I live in nearby Seqium, where we pay only about ten cents per kwh. Just can't afford to switch.

[@davidkendall2272]

@@bjb7587 I fully understand your concerns about cost. We were fortunate to have incentives in place that Gov. Christine Gregoire initiated that enabled us to pay off our solar in only 7 years. The cost of solar has come down drastically since our 2012 installation and costs 1/4th of what we paid plus the efficiency has gone up meaning fewer panels to achieve a goal. Solar has been a game changer for us and we have zero regret for the investment.

[@guapochino140]

@@bjb7587 I assume that the quotes just take your current consumption and translate it to solar. The thing is that once you become responsible for your own power generation, you'd be surprised at how much less you can get by on. It's like when you shout at the kids to shut the door because you're not trying to heat the whole neighborhood, but with all your electricity (I promise I'm a fun guy at parties) There are different views of future energy consumption - some think it will be abundance and cheap renewables for all, so just keep consuming as you were. I am not so sure. PV teaches you a great deal about what you need and what you don't.

[@davidkendall2272]

@@guapochino140 Totally agree, after 12 years of monitoring our energy consumption, we have a feel for how much we use and how to reduce our energy use to manage our output. I actually keep a spreadsheet of our solar output and energy use and we generally have reduced our total energy use dramatically over time, and the installation of Powerwall batteries in 2018 have helped us manage things dramatically.

[@andrewjoy7044]

Here in Australia the generation and distribution of electricity has been politicised. The right wing conservative Liberals and Nationals have campaigned against green energy and have proposed Nuclear power as a solution to Australia's future energy needs. This is despite the fact we have no nuclear energy gerneration experience and most energy experts agree that it would not be until the mid 2040s before the first reactor could be commissioned. The centre left Labor party is all in for renewables and is pushing this with some success. In South Australia, where I live, both sides of politics have worked together to seek a 100% renewables pathway. At present over 70% of our total electricity needs are met by renewables. The present Labor Government is trying to get to 100% by 2027. With cooperation from both sides of the political spectrum 100% renewables is very achievable.

[@PnF_oz1]

Maybe it should be pointed out that South Australia also has the most expensive electricity in Australia.

[@andrewjoy7044]

​@@PnF_oz1While this is true there are many reasons for the higher price. Most other states still use a significant amount of coal and gas. You may be aware that coal and gas needs to be phased out due to climate change. SA is along way down this path where as other states are not. The other states need to replace their aging power stations and going with wind and solar is the cheapest most cost effective way.

[@LaReynedEpee]

There's something to be said for communities taking control and creating their own supply

[@marcofossa5741]

South Australia distributed rooftop PV is a lecture of mine to my MSc students in Energy Engineering .. Go On Aussies, go on!

[@vylbird8014]

Weirdly enough Australia does have a vast amount of uranium. Which it mines and exports, but doesn't use itself.

[@swapan]

One of the places using rudimentary version of VPP not mentioned here is Bangladesh, with lot of houses having rooftop solar and most of them being connected as a community. Home grown tools / software and controls make it usable by poorest of communities. It might be a good place to learn from.

[@GeoffTosio]

Yes in Australia we are now live with the products we sell (Fronius Gen24 inverters and BYD batteries) - this is on a VPP through Amber Electric. We have price spikes in the wholesale market that are over 100 times the normal rate and the algorithm they provide will discharge and make money for the end user (I made $148 in one day recently). This algorithm even saw a price spike coming at 7am and decided to charge my battery from the grid in preparation for that event - brilliant. This is undoubtedly the most important change I have seen in the renewables/energy market over my 15 year career.

[@mestinks]

That sounds great, does being part of a VPP remove the need for the supplier to automatically stop the solar generation if there is a local outage?

[@steve6034]

sounds great, but what was your setup/upfront costs and did you estimate a pay back period?

[@GeoffTosio]

@@steve6034 I have a $14K - 16kWhr battery. But the issue of return on investment pivots around a number of issues - how much a client can export to the grid (I have three phase power and so I can export more - 7.5kW, but most people can only export 5kW), how long the price spike is for (the 5th Aug was a morning and evening event for about 2.5 hours in total), and how often those wholesale price spikes occur. Right now in the shoulder seasons there is less demand on the grid from air conditioning but a month ago it was cold and cloudy so not much renewable energy. The gas fired turbines were dominating the grid and gaming the system as usual (they wait until they have a monopoly and then turn off generation to drive the prices up higher then turn on and make a killing). So a rough estimate of how many price spikes are coming - perhaps 6-10 each year is a reasonable assumption ... this will reduce the ROI on a battery from 12 years to 6 years on average. My prediction is that things will get worse (more peak events) before it gets better - ie; enough batteries providing the competition we require.

[@antoglennon1]

Thanks

[@JustHaveaThink]

@antoglennon1 WOW. That's really generous support. Thanks you so much!

[@Dmitri_Schrama]

I do not really have anything to say. But I know comments help your channel and so I'm doing my bit. Thank you for all your work! :)

[@kevinwhited984]

What an excellent idea!

[@harveytheparaglidingchaser7039]

Really appreciate snippets of good news amongst all the doom and gloom ❤

[@stevesmith-sb2df]

What we need to advance VPP is a national standard interface for the utility.

[@mintakan003]

Yeah. I was thinking of a need for a uniform standard. Just a "quality of service" (QoS) in compute, maybe something analogous for VPP interfaces. And of course, cybersecurity standards will also be important.

[@trueriver1950]

Even better would an INTERnational standard

[@choralimpact]

That could also make it more vulnerable and slower to get (rules and regulations take so much time..)

[@RasmusSchultz]

the standard should be GLOBAL, not merely national. the sheer complexity of the VPP grid described here was enough to make me raise an eyebrow during most of the video. it's daunting to build - it'll be risky to operate. it would all be a lot simpler if everything operates on a single, globally agreed-upon standard protocol. 🤔

[@carlbennett2417]

​@@RasmusSchultz don't panic. We don't have a global AC voltage standard, yet the lights stay on. Sure, some open source modules would be great, but each grid operator will want their own framework.

[@matteomelli]

Thank you, Dave! Your videos are often a source of inspiration and discovery. Congratulations on your ability to make even complex topics simple and easy to understand.🙂

[@JustHaveaThink]

Thanks Matteo. I really appreciate your kind feedback and support.

[@MyrKnof]

I was on a team that coded some VPP (or pooling as we called it then) for Centrica, where they could create huge VPPs out of all the assets they managed, and do planning with stop/start for them. They usually pooled them by ramp time. It was quite interesting. I've since not quite understood why where haven't been a push for home solar and storage management before now.

[@paulwoods1950]

So here's the rub from Australia. 1 I'm off grid, 2 I'm of grid because it's so expensive to connect. My daughter is on grid with a battery. As a proffesional in the field I have advised her to no sign up for a virtual power plant. 1 the return for your feed in power is so tiny that it doesn't make financial sense. The grid provider gets to wear our your equipment but has no invested capital whilst paying you a tiny amount 6c per Kw/hr for the power you provide. A poor investment. Don't get sucked in. You pay, and they make the profits.

[@wooddavid8293]

Finally! The true benefit of solar/wind energy. Clean, sustainable, distributed energy production. It increases system resilience and lowers dependence on foreign energy. Anyone who lived through the fuel crises of the 1970s should be very happy for this development instead of the Luddite clinging to the past that we see.

[@jameshall5624]

Wind generators are destroying the Scottish countryside where I live, pristine moorlands now despoiled with huge turbines and service tracks the width of a motorway salted and gritted in Winter. What about the pollution caused in manufacture?, What happens when they reach the end of service? The mining of Lithium, rare earth minerals, copper etc. Is there enough of it to go round in any case? At least these VPP systems will enable them to use their power when demand is low rather than turn off.

[@GaryGraham-sx4pm]

@@jameshall5624 .. birds are particularly annoyed by gigantic wind turbines, some quite fatally, and the unseen size of the concrete blocks beneath them, future archaeologists contemplating our civilization will ponder at these mega-blocks, with the forever-chemical blades they unearth interpreted as fetishes of ritual. teflonhenge.. (a brightly colored smallish windmill that birds can see atop a turret on a garage roof is good though, a battery car and an electric bike might charge up when the wind blows, with perhaps enough left over for a little fan heater on an inclement night .

[@rickrys2729]

Every ISO/RTO in the US are planning on VPP's to create grid interactive customers. VPPs can keep the grid stable at much lower cost than massive grid batteries.

[@donnamarie3617]

One of the Octopi tentacles has made it's way down under to New Zealand, and we love it. The way the rates work with overnight cheap power, and a diverter on my hot water cylinder, we haven't had to pay a cent for power since we moved over about 18 months ago. And better still, we are just coming out of winter here and we still have a $500 credit on our power account. And as the equinox passes this credit will only increase. Happy us!

[@jules6396]

Hi I’m in NZ as well which company are you using, is Ecotricity?

[@donnamarie3617]

@@jules6396 Octopus.

[@LaReynedEpee]

Living the dream 😍

[@fifthager]

I've lived and worked through the evolution of data networks. Power networks are somewhat older, even than me, and were a necessary precursor. They seem to be following a slower but similar development path, but in reverse. We started with local area networks. With those, you knew where your data was as your own kit stored it and served it up. Then came leased point-to-point connections followed by the internet. At that point the 'air gap' that offered a fair measure of protection against bad people and faraway mishaps disappeared. Now most businesses and organisations only know that their precious data is somewhere "in the cloud", and seem fairly relaxed about that, just as in the beginning we neither knew nor cared where the electricity was being produced as long as it was there. Now we are considering setting up our own power generation and/or storage and then hooking it up to the wider world as an end-stage, not a starting point. The complication of course is that such VPP power networks depend on the data networks that preceded them. I would like to see due account taken of the need to design-in graceful failure modes. Whilst it might be comforting to know that if things go badly wrong you can air-gap (off-grid) your own generation and storage and keep going, for a while at least, it is as well to keep in mind that nothing spreads faster than panic.

[@taddytales]

Fantastic and fascinating video Dave. I now understand how Octopus is charging my car every night

[@cupofkoa]

"Human being are smart aren't they... at least techincally speaking" Nice :D

[@Joyful-rebel]

Merci!

[@JustHaveaThink]

Thanks for your support. Much appreciated :-)

[@jamesgrover2005]

I've got a 20kWh battery from Bliq (NL) being installed in 2 weeks, it will auto buy and sell in the energy market. I'm not so sure it'll be paying itself off very quickly with all the other big scale batteries coming on line.. but hey ho, I'm not really in it to make money, but I do like the idea of using all my own solar.

[@johanneskingma]

I wonder why utility companies not meet up with housing rental or lease companies and install battery systems in every household or condominium building. It would make these dwellings less dependent on the grid and even could make a bit of money when markets fluctuate. Btw I'm based in Switzerland where the majority of families live in "Mehrfamilien" estates.

[@ecocodex4431]

I have a Duracell alkaline AA battery... 🙃

[@mrbizi5652]

@@johanneskingmaI’ve had exactly same thought. I wanted to build startup to install batteries at households and businesses globally and then provide a virtual peaker plant. But need investment and cofounders

[@anguscampbell1533]

For rural areas, the costs to service a house (ie with grid lines and polese as well as maintenance) should be factored in. What I mean is if an electrical supply company has to run and maintain a grid of say 5 to ten poles or more for a single house in a rural area then that same power company should be forced to apply a Solar/Wind/Battery study as well as finance its installation as per the cost of the grid needed.

[@ajayvee6677]

I am from northern Tasmania, where recent storms caused nearly 40,000 households to lose power for several days. Although most of the State’s energy is renewable hydropower we are still at risk from extreme events that can damage the grid. Personally we suffered a five day brown out in which the reduced power was enough to keep a few LED lights on but not boil a kettle, run an electric stove or prevent the freezers and fridges from defrosting. Fortunately we have 8kW of roof top solar panels and a gas stove top, so we were able to cook a meal but all in all it was a miserable time. If our State would integrate a few VPPs into the system many of the local outages could be avoided and the risk of power losses from extreme weather events might be reduced.

[@julkkis666]

I have a locally produced thermostat that connects to the local prices for electricity and commands the in-floor heating to run when it's cheap and not when it's expencive. Good stuff.

[@mere_cat]

My company has about 50 MW of demand response capacity, and we’ve been asked by our state legislature to get up to 10% of peak demand from our VPP. We’ve been ramping up programs, including most recently a battery and EV program. It is pretty exciting stuff! Two other challenges come to mind: 1. Maintaining and expanding participation, as DR isn’t a “firm” resource and customer acceptance is essential for reliability. Some programs are opt-out which can be less palatable for some customers. 2. Verification of savings is a challenge that still needs to be figured out. Unlike a power plant, you don’t really know how much you are producing real time. Maintaining a consistent and realistic baseline through a matched comparison group makes the most sense, but that can take months to evaluate. As a shortcut, we’ve been using a pre-period baseline, but it has been quite inaccurate.

[@brianjonker510]

Which state?

[@mere_cat]

Washington

[@supermikeb]

You are my only channel I sponsor with Patrion, and I'm so glad to have your channel Dave!

[@peterenglert3077]

The “conventional” process is to use excess power during the night to heat off-peak water heaters in homes We should switch this around - during the day when there is an excess of power from solar, we should heat hot water heaters during the day

[@robertheaton2003]

Thanks!

[@JustHaveaThink]

Thanks for your support. Much appreciated :-)

[@michaelsohocki1573]

Dave, I have to think the discount energy is only going to last while the cat's in the bag. Demand happens (concentrates) where it happens for whatever reasons it happens. So if a computer algorithm trajects that the value will increase at 5 pm, and so it pulls the power at 3 pm for a small windfall, this is only going to work until about half of the constituency pull their power at 3 pm. When everyone readjust to the new location of this value, the new 3 pm will become noon. The dog will continue to chase its tail around until there is no more value left on the clock, the secret has gone public. Not that this is a bad idea--we SHOULD with all haste be pressing forward into smart grid technology where our resources can be better managed--but I'm afraid the windfall is only going to be temporary while there's still fruit on the tree.

[@antoniocruz8083]

With all algorithms competing against each other I would think energy consumption should be perfectly optimized and as cheap as possible.

[@LumenCache]

Great introduction to VPPs. You touched on demand, yet focused on storage. As the incentives change from supporting power generation revenue to a more "pay for saving" business model, the focus of the "source" of energy will shift from supply to demand management.

[@andycordy5190]

Electricity and electronics have allways been, as you say, something I take for granted. As I try to keep a wonderful old group of listed buildings in a sustainable condition, what I need is specialist advice and expertise to plan for the future and invest in infrastructure in order that future owners of these buildings can thrive here in the absence of carbon dioxide generating fuels (currently tank gas and labour intensive fire wood). Where solar and wind are forbidden by conservation regulations I support, a flexible package of technologies, for instance ground source heat pump and discretely sited solar off the buildings would be optimum in the near future but providers are geared u for standard installations in modern formulaic housing where they can reliably turn a profit.

[@trueriver1950]

I'm not totally convinced by the idea that VPPs mean the end of monopoly. The VPP is itself a monopoly, and we have seen with supermarkets how they can dictate terms to small suppliers. That's all we may become, if we are not careful

[@noizydan]

There seems scope within the tech for us to produce energy ourselves and to use VPP off grid to manage our own supply better at home. This could shrink the monopolies and decentrslise much production.

[@davidgraham7223]

I was thinking it sounded more like a cooperative.

[@tumbleddry2887]

Between a rock and a hard place: That really is the only thing about VPPs that bother me...its a VPP (which is a fantastic concept and has proof of concept already) or a conglomerate energy producer (and we know already their track record). We need a functioning Congress (complete with grownups) for the policy framework to make VPP use equitable and politically stable....I really want VPP's to work.

[@incognitotorpedo42]

Well, you *are* a small supplier. Best get used to it. Putting a few solar panels on your roof was never going to make you a millionaire.

[@incognitotorpedo42]

@@sytonicflux You aren't giving the VPP total control. You can tell it how much power it can take, and when it can take it.

[@leannekerber3045]

It's very exciting to see new technology come online to help modernize our energy systems worldwide! Thank you for sharing.

[@harold5560]

Having individual citizens participate in the energy market is an amazing concept. I was very excited when I signed up for the connected solutions program here in Massachusetts, yet after a year, I have sadly decided to leave the program, for a few reasons: 1- they drain my Tesla power walls pretty much every day in the summer , down to 20%, even on cloudy days when these barely charge to 40%, leaving me totally depending on the grid day after day, despite all the energy my panels produce, and when there’s a storm coming, the Tesla storm watch is not very reliable. 2- concerns about battery degradation. These batteries are expensive! 3- the incentive money is not that great, and even worse, it is considered taxable income!

[@blaydCA]

But the utility company is THRILLED with free storage profits

[@MalcolmRose-l3b]

I thought you could specify how much energy they could take? Basically set your own parameters? It's not something that appeals to me - my system is the smallest practical system that I could afford, so not suitable. And I live in Spain where most of the electric companies are thieves, so I wouldn't trust them to do anything.

[@electricAB]

As always, thanks Dave for another download of hope..

[@winrampen1174]

In 1977 Professor Stephen Salter came up with a decentralised scheme to reduce demand when the generators were struggling to maintain supply. This was a little electronic box between the mains and the consuming device. It continuously monitored the grid frequency and, if it was dropping, could disconnect an electrical load. In order to avoid instability Stephen realised that only a fraction of the connected devices should shut off at any one instant. He solved this by using a microcontroller which would generate a random number and then take action if it was in the right range. When engineers in the CEGB (monopoly electricity supplier of the 20th century) heard about this their reaction was: "they must be smoking strong stuff up in Edinburgh"

[@LaReynedEpee]

And Thatcher cut his research funding, because she anticipated his wave energy research has the capability to seriously usurp the status quo.

[@grogery1570]

As a South Australian I was proud to hear the mention of how much we have achieved with this new technology but embarrassed to think it happened not because of smart decisions but one stupid one. A former Premier (American equivalent is governor) decided to pay off the states debt by selling a state owned electricity company. The purchaser then put up electricity prices to pay for it's interest costs, then put up prices every year to pay for up grades, maintenance and anything else it could think of. The Premier was voted out by disgusted citizens and the new government decided to subsidize solar panels as a way of lowering electricity prices. This is when newspapers started telling people renewable energy would increase electricity prices. A few years later a fire caused the disconnection of power coming into the state from large cheap sources which lead to call for SA to abandon it's failed experiment with renewables and build fossil fuel plants. Which is when the Hornsdale battery was built. Now household batteries are all the rage as it is the cheapest way to buy power, at least when the sun shines. We are still being told to go nuclear to fight climate change but it seems more like a call to go back to being suckers.

[@joehopfield]

Good summary, though you gave responsive demand short shrift. VPP should be Virtual Power Grid, and includes end-user devices (like AC that you mentioned). AC, fridges, water heating make up a huge part of demand. If they can shift demand based on timely price info/forecasts, bIllions in battery backups can be avoided.

[@tazpartridge1612]

We have solar and batteries, and participate in a VPP. The VPP has drawn power from our domestic batteries in response to peak prices. They took 22 kWh for the month, we exported 50kwh yesterday alone, so the VPP draw is negligible, but the value in keeping the grid stable is much more. The grid in the area we live is considered fragile. Domestic batteries and vpp are helping maintain the supply of electricity. On top of that, we dont get a power bill...

[@jms019]

Kraken is hosted over the pond so guess what happens to our grid if there is a serious connectivity issue possibly caused by a grid failure over there or anywhere in between.

[@solarpunkstories]

Another brilliant video. We've already got a story planned where in the background people are letting EV batteries plugged into the grid be drained for a price during peak demand times. That seems to go along with this VPP idea

[@TheLRider]

Already a long term Octopus customer but didn't know about how advanced their VPP was.. Absolutely brilliant.. A secondary question if I may, why doesn't everybody join someone like Octopus and immedistelly reduce their carbon footprint by about 20%?

[@adamcarnegie5660]

You are so EPIC. I love your channel. Well done for everything that you do.

[@sfertman]

There is one huge caveat you did not mention. Given that this tech is "bloody damn complicated" and relies on "the cloud", these new so called disruptive PRIVATE companies are going to emerge as the new monopolists. Not in power generation this time but in power distribution -- the text book definition of middlemen. This is something software tech companies have mastered to a frightening degree in the last 20 years. It's very easy to see how this will happen because it happened many, many times before, in every sector. Just give it a decade or so. They will undercut existing models with investor subsidized pricing, lock in consumers with the promise of cheap electrons and maybe "make money by installing solar" scams. They will then lure providers by exploiting consumers; they will then exploit everyone to fatten up their own wallets. Big VPPs will price out and buy out smaller VPPs; prices go up, quality goes down and the consumer gets.... well, the usual: a barely affordable electric bill and mostly burning wood to not freeze the pipes in the winter. Regulator must take action right now to make sure these new markets are treated as a public goods before the enshittification begins.

[@blardyslartfast6651]

Exactly

[@jamesphillips2285]

This speaks directly to my complaint about [how] every VPP scheme I have seen is proprietary. That just screams vendor lock-in. But as I point out in my comment: it ALSO means that competing load shedding schemes can subvert each other if they don't interoperate.

[@PCRoss2469]

Hi Dave, great video again. I've been on a VPP (In eastern Australia) for about a year now. It works well, and it's always made sense to me that distributed production makes sense as it helps keep the demand on distribution networks somewhat under control. Of course if we were designing the grid again from scratch today, that's how the design would be done, but we have to work (for now) with what we have. The disparity between the actual wholesale price and what we get paid on the way in, is a bit of a nasty, largely driven by the overall inefficiency of the grid as it exists. The temptation is of course to take my Solar plant and batteries and cut the cord, but that's actually not ideal for the future of a better grid. We need to watch this price disparity as it just might incentivise the wrong behaviours (for the bigger picture). Thanks again for spreading the word.

[@philwaddell4958]

Great video as always Dave. I'm fascinated by VPPs. Not only for what they will do for our energy usage but for what I have a feeling they'll do for our societies. Pretty much every way humans have ever structured societies has, at it's core, their relationship with and need for energy. So if we start down this road of decentralising our relationship with energy, and introducing Machine Learning mechanisms to govern its production and consumption; then I have a feeling those decentralised, aggregation methods are going to slowly creep into every sphere of our lives, from how we educate our kids to how we create laws and ultimately how we decide to live together. And I'm all for it!

[@charlesashurst1816]

VPP is a concept on which I’ve been bending ears since the 1970s. Visualize it and it will happen. Your welcome. And now I have the hardware to participate in the form of a household with solar panels, storage batteries, electric appliances, and EV. I would love to have it integrated into a VPP network. I’m seeing it in my mind right now. Let’s all see it together. Ommm,

[@olyalphy]

If you are in the position to do so, getting home solar, and battery storage, then enrolling in a VPP is the best thing you can do to maximize your resources and become energy independent. It is a great feeling participating in the energy market and making a few dollars doing so. The biggest benefit is having backup energy in the event of a climate event. If my local grid goes down, I can last weeks if not months with just my solar and battery (off-grid mode).

[@eddiefears6301]

Thanks for the information. I live in Ozark Missouri think you're doing a great job.

[@wayne8113]

Thanks Dave

[@marksmit8112]

Store it until 5-7pm when unleash the surplus during peak will add resilience to the grid and smooth out electricity prices

[@UrdnotChuckles]

Watching this in the middle of a brownout. Can't wait to see some grid improvements around here.

[@LilyWasHereMB]

I hold shares in a big-data analytics company so, I'm thrilled that there is a developing market in VPP's

[@carlbrenninkmeijer8925]

Thank you, this gives real hope!!!

[@sagecoach]

Localizing power generation and demand can reduce the area size of outages with proper controls. The underlying financial system will need to adjust to this change as well as the regulatory structure. The shorter distance between power generation and load reduces energy efficiency loss which has the same effect as more power.

[@EdSurridge]

Thanks as ever, Right to bring ng attention to Energy Policies firstly prioritising National Security

[@robertcruikshank8864]

I installed 5kWp of solar and a 10kWh sonnen battery at the begining of 2019 ($20k cost). Lived with that for a year or two then moved to a Sonnen VPP. Lived with that for a while then moved to wholesale provider (Amber Electric which is similar to UKs Octopus), and this is what happend to the cost. 2017 - $2,486 No solar or battery (Gas central heating in Sydney winter) 2018 - $2,905 No solar or battery (Still had gas central heating) 2019 - $724 Solar & battery on same supply plan as past years (Still gas heating) 2020 - $654 Moved to Sonnen VPP 2021 - $707 VPP 2022 - $591 VPP 2023 - $650 VPP (moved to Amber wholesale supply in last quarter with my own computer system managing battery) 2024 - -$105 Amber and wholesale supply and I'm in credit (and I'm charing the EV at home and changed from gas heating to HVAC) So I think VPP is good but managing it yourself is better.

[@R_Alexander029]

As a fairly libertarian engineer, I love the idea of powering my home entirely from free, decentralised energy like solar. Helping the environment is a very nice bonus.

[@freesk8]

A government monopoly in power is a dystopian nightmare. I'm a Libertarian too.

[@DrakeN-ow1im]

@@freesk8 Government monopolies are less terrifying than the effective monopolies which poliferate wherever regulatory controls by governments are inadequate. The government ones we know about, the commercial and financial ones are often disguised under convoluted structures and collusive managements.

[@freesk8]

@@DrakeN-ow1im Here's a partial list of the government mandated monopolies in the US: home natural gas, home electricity, home water, sewer, garbage collection, land line phone, cable tv, bus service, train service, state ferries, drivers licences, roads, state liquor stores, US Postal service... If you try to compete with any of these, the law will shut you down. These are the ones we are aware of. But consider this hidden monopoly: banking in the US is an effective monopoly. How? The US Federal Reserve bank sets capital structure and interest rates for all banks. This effectively makes one banking monopoly or cartell in the US. Now name some private sector monopolies. Notice that all of these monopolies lasted for about 20 years, and then were superceded by private sector competition: GE, Standard Oil, Railroad Trusts, IBM, Microsoft... And now we are up against Google. But Google will be gone in 20 years, or a pale image of its former self. And the first list above of government monopoly orgs has been around for a century, and shows no sign of losing power. Now consider the level of service you get from Google, compared to your monopoly utility? Monopoly is bad, but government monopoly is far worse.

[@chrisconklin2981]

Please put "VPP" into your header title. It would make searches much easier. Thanks for mentioning Distributed Energy Resources.

[@CitiesForTheFuture2030]

Tx for another great video topic - very interesting.

[@michaelcoghlan9124]

Excellent thank you.. ❤

[@kevinwhited984]

Thanks for the great info!

[@itsjert]

Legend mode

[@cg986]

Amazing!

[@babaluto]

Great topic...again! I gave up on pushing for VPP in my area in the USA. Decentralization is key to resiliency. 30kw of panels with 130kwh of storage and no interest from the utility provider. I think that VPP in the US is a bit of a waste unless the utilities rewire a majority of the grid with low loss cable. A rewire alone would negate the need for new plants and infrastructure for years to come due to increased efficiencies. Now combine that with VPP, we could make a serious difference. Cheers!

[@NickAskew]

I agree that the VPP model is good. I invested in solar panels years ago partially to reduce my bills, partially to generate electricity for my car, and partially to be greener. The utility companies here in the Netherlands have started fighting back because we generate more than they can take so they shut down my panels and they are charging me to deliver electricity back to the grid. So I need a battery and that will cost about the same as the panels did. My idea of a good solution would be to get the local authority to invest in a battery system they can use to smooth the peaks and troughs. But that would be undermining the accountants at the utility companies 😊 so I guess that won't happen. Until we have governments that realise that the planet is more important than the bonuses of utility company bosses, I fear joined up thinking won't happen.

[@nickcook2714]

Interesting factoid At the beginning Dave talks about flicking a light switch on to provide a flow of electrons that were generated at a power station miles away a few milliseconds earlier. The reality is that virtually all of the electrons flowing in your light, or other appliance, will never actually leave the light fitting, at least if it is an AC supply. Even if it's a DC supply they would probably be take days to get from your light fitting even just to the light switch. When a current Flows in a wire the bulk movement of electrons that produce the current move extremely slowly. At the sort of currents used for normal lighting the average distance moved by the electrons will only be a few hundredths, or even thousandths of millimetre. For 50 hertz AC current the electrons move one way for 0.01 sec of a second and then the other way for 0.01 seconds, never really going anywhere. There is another aspect of electron speed which I'll discuss in a minute but first away to imagine/understand what's happening. Electric currents in wires can be thought of a bit like water in pipes. With a copper wire it's a bit like having a water pipe that has a huge diameter. Because water is incompressible, at least under normal conditions, if you turn a tap on at one end of this long massive pipe, that has pressurised water at the other end, and take a litre of water out, a litre of water will to go in at the other end but you won't be getting that litre of water you'll get the litre that was in the pipe next to the tap. With a wire the amount of free electrons in The Wire is fast compared to the number that I required to produce a normal electric current levels we use. With AC electricity it's a bit like pushing that litre of water in and out off one end of the pipe and using the separate litre, that will be forced in and out of the other end of the pipe, to drive some appliance. With a DC current the water is continually going into one end of the pipe and coming out of the other, but it will be a very long time before the first litre of water that's put in actually reaches the output/tap. The other aspect of electron movement is that even when the electricity is switched off the electrons in the wire are still moving around, but this movement is extremely fast, in copper around 1,500Km/s. However this movement is random in all directions and the path of all electrons will generally be blocked by other atoms or electrons after a very short distance and will randomly changed direction.

[@bobbresnahan8397]

One more comment and I'll just listen. Batteries are profoundly effective at smoothing out the flow of electricity on the grid. They can respond in milliseconds to energy demand and have already made the grid more efficient in a number of places, notably Australia. Batteries are distributed resources so much of what you say here applies to them as well.

[@njanderson4342]

Thank you.

[@firefox39693]

I think solutions like this as absolutely great. The way they help to put downward pressure on the commodity price of electricity is fast, and it's not disruptive at all. VPPs are not an alternative to building more power plants. We need more zero-carbon power, especially baseload assets like hydropower, nuclear, and even tidal energy.

[@jamesdonnelly3280]

I have a Tesla roof/wall, but I am Part of a local VPP. It’s save a ton of $$$$, and helps the environment. Rare combo.

[@patrickmckowen2999]

Great as usual 👍

[@martincotterill823]

Interesting stuff. Cheers, Dave!

[@jdcharlwood]

How much energy does the cloud use?

[@choralimpact]

I think that this is one of the things that will really make a difference. We only need to get rid of naming it VPP, because by calling it virtual you acknowledge that the system must forcibly be monolithic, just split up by some weird virtuality. It is a distributed system, with independent but connected and coordinated hubs. Well, at the same time, the virtual thing may make the larger companies and monolith thinkers accept it sooner. If just we go this way, because it is the best and probably fastest way to get ahead with he diversity of solutions we need in order to get to a point that fossil fuels are no longer necessary.

[@celestinarogers2935]

Cool developments and excellent video!

[@jimthain8777]

The fun thing for those legacy utilities, IF they can see it, is that THEY could operate their own VPP systems too. There's absolutely nothing preventing them from benefiting from this technology, BUT, they have to be able to SEE that they could benefit from it. IF they did that would remove a major hurdle, while at the same time making those existing utilities more efficient, and keeping them relevant. Too bad there isn't someone making the pitch to the CEOs of those utilities.

[@brianjonker510]

It was only a matter of time & inevitable economics that demand would become variable to match variable renewable energy.

[@adamnealis]

"Power to the people!"

[@06howea1]

Good one

[@ristekostadinov2820]

3:11 Damn i didn't knew so much of Brazil's electricity is from renewable sources. While there are countries with big chunk of electricity being generated from renewables, Brazil have over 200 million people.

[@zotter2542]

Amazing

[@CrystalNetZero]

Great content.

[@floydbertagnolli944]

Well done!!! Another in the series of: “JUST HAVE A SOLUTION!” 😃👍🎉

[@ravicabral2522]

Another informative and interesting video. Thanks.

[@dermotdonnelly5495]

Great video as usual 👌

[@Digital-Dan]

I'm participating in a PG&E related VPP using Tesla Power Walls in CA. So far, about 8 2 hour stretches during the summer when peak power prices peaked. 🙂 I don't know yet what I will reap from this, since the payouts will occur only when the hot season ends.

[@HollisAudioLabs]

Looking forward to when our local power coop in MD starts a VPP program. Already have a Tesla Solar Roof and 2-PW2's grid connected.

[@wlhgmk]

I have 3.5kw of solar panels facing East, 3.5 facing West and 3.4 facing North (I live in the Southern Hemisphere). No battery yet as they are pretty expensive here. I am not getting the best return from my system. I charge my EV either in the day when it is sunny or at night when I have a 10c tariff per kWh but what I would like is that only my excess power goes to the car (and the hot water cylinder). At present, if my underfloor heat pump cuts in or a cloud covers the sun, I am charging the EV with grid power.

[@bienvenueabrive2636]

Fascinating video. Hopefully VPP is the disruptor that will drive connected device ( e.g . Hot water tanks, AC, refrigeration. Etc.) enablement, for Social and rental households that can't currently benefit from the self generation options that homeowners have. If everyone doesn't benefit, then none of us will.

[@incognitotorpedo42]

Nonsense. "Everyone" has never benefited from anything, and yet human society has continued to develop. It will be great if a lot of people benefit from VPPs, but it's never going to be "everyone".

[@Mionikoi]

VPPs sounds like a major security risk.

[@thguzzo17]

Great pov

[@chrisbarnes2823]

I don’t want a computer running my power, it is ripe for breaking down. KISS is the way to go with each individual home producing its own energy.

[@ashleigh3021]

A computer is “running” your power regardless. The only difference is whether it’s a centralized or decentralized one. The current “computer” running the power into your home shuts down GWs of wind energy year to throw it into the bin.

[@jeffsteinmetz7188]

Why has Tesla been lagging in enabling EVs to be part of the VPP? This capability is critical in providing the stored capacity to enable a grid without the need for fossil capacity. The owners of these EV assets arrive at home, plug in, and then start firing up the heat pump, air conditioner, stove, and all the appliances that drive peak demand. This underutilized capacity could dramatically reduce the cost of a clean and reliable grid.

[@rogerphelps9939]

Absolutely. They just realise that their Powerwall business is obsolete.

[@kx7500]

Stop relying on parasitic entities such as capitalist businesses to get their act together when they are literally the problem.

[@incognitotorpedo42]

@@rogerphelps9939 Early on, the concern was that excessive cycling of the battery would lead to higher warranty costs. I think that shifted at some point to not wanting to cannibalize their Powerwall business.

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@incognitotorpedo42 Indeed. Fortunately other car makers couldn't care less about Tesla's Powerwall business.

[@8Arachne8]

Sounds like the exact opposite of why I’m getting into producing and storing my own energy. I don’t want an outside force deciding anything for me. I do it for independence and self reliance. Ain’t no way some outside agency is going to decide I can’t do laundry on a subzero day while blasting my heat and enjoying music and cooking while charging my car up for the holiday I’m about to take. I’ll use all the energy I want when I want.

[@LaReynedEpee]

I like very much that this is a possibility for us now.

[@8Arachne8]

@@LaReynedEpee Interested to hear why, after hearing of “smart thermostat” companies turning people’s A/C up to 80 in the summer to reduce power demands I ensure everything I own is locally controlled and truly mine.

[@antoniocruz8083]

That only works if you are 100% off-grid. Be proud and never, ever use the grid. Of course, for this to happen you will have to invest enough in your power system to handle long periods of no production and that's not economically viable. No man is an island, it's best to be both independent and connected.

[@8Arachne8]

@@antoniocruz8083 I can be connected to the grid and not allow them control of my thermostat or cap my energy. (At least right now.) I return over 5MWh to the grid annually, least they can do is allow me to run my house the way I want to when I want to.

[@theobreakspear3068]

That's not how VPPs work. Nobody would buy into that. It's literally a tariff where they will pay you the market rate minus a processing fee for exported power, and offer you the market rate plus a processing fee for imported power. If you want to use an app to recommend when is the best time to charge your car according to the market rate then you can, but fixed price tariffs aren't going anywhere, especially when power will only get cheaper with more renewables

[@christopherlenahan3906]

National Energy needs an app that interfaces with each homeowners power generation or storage system. The system should inform on the power that the homeowner has allocated for grid-use and then it can calculate which generators will best suit the current needs. Not for government oversight at all, but allowing deeper access to the ever growing micro-generation grid seems intelligent. The NEED for a smart-grid use manager would be much more efficient and not leave you with an empty battery in your car in the morning, from the grid draining it.

[@richardbartlett6932]

Some 10+ years ago I was very loosely involved in Daikin (then the largest ac manufacturer in the world) as they were involved with the UK energy department to investigate what was then called 'load shedding' whereby the power gen companies could turn on/off large ac plant in commercial buildings remotely to help balance the load. I guess It was the forerunner of VPP?

[@Kevin_Street]

Octopus Energy sounds like quite a company. Here in North America utility companies tend to become very conservative and adverse to innovation because they have have protected markets. I wonder what happened in England to encourage such a forward looking corporation.

[@TheBricetune]

Same question..

[@MalcolmRose-l3b]

Octopus have started an operation here in Spain. When the government liberalized the green energy market market a few years ago they ensured that the deck was completely stacked in favour of Iberdrola and Endesa (the two largest companies who provide sinecure jobs for ministers upon retirement as a quid pro quo for the ministers framing laws in their favour). Every small Spanish supplier has followed the lead of the two big companies - essentially the terms that the government set as the minimum acceptable (because that was the minimum that the EU would accept as legitimate) became the norm - every company in Spain offers the same terms. Except Octopus who set up a few months ago and are actually offering a much better deal for PV system owners than they are obliged to do. More power to them..

[@LaReynedEpee]

Just a bunch of people who decided to shake things up, which anyone with the expertise can choose to do.

[@simonpaine2347]

The US should be really embarrassed for being 13th out of 20 and only a fraction ahead of India and Indonesia!

[@paperburn]

And ruin our earning estimates? Preposterous, scandalous at best! 🎩

[@frederickheard2022]

We should be ashamed for a lot of things

[@OffgridApartment]

Europe? We don’t think about you and your likely utter misunderstanding of how dramatically different our country is to yours.😂😂

[@kx7500]

@@OffgridApartmentcop out excuse

[@simonpaine2347]

@@OffgridApartment Did I say I was in Europe? I'm just OK with calling a spade a spade. America should be leading the world in renewable energy, instead we are denying it's worthwhile.

[@shuaige3360]

No 3rd party advertising.. but advertising for people sponsoring you and asking more people to do the same. At the end… can not skip the advertising :p Thanks for the video

[@DrakeN-ow1im]

Our overarching reliance on controlled flows of electrons worries me more than a little. "Carrington Event" anyone?