The Premature End of Cybernetic Socialism (Project Cybersyn)

[@nowtopia]

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[@waxon2]

What a fantastic presentation. I wasn't even aware Allende had implemented this. Thank you Nowtopia. Such potential. Well, now we have the tech. We could develop a system where literally everyone could easily provide real-time proposals, debate, voting, and other feedback. A real international people's eDemocracy where we each have a real voice, free from the entrenched, arbitrary boundaries of the corporate nation state and associated MIFMAC (Military Industrial Financial Media Academic Complex.

[@penzorphallos3199]

Stuff like this or ussr's ogas are definitely interesting to imagine, as somekind of real star treck technocracy in both the elitist and technological meaning of the term. The reference to modern 'big data' at the video is definitely apt for such topics. In the 80s the digitalization of trade and finance was an incredible boon to capital efficiency, and source of an extreme amount of money, and those systems were imagined to possibly have been such boons for command economies. But computerized financial systems are rather simple compared to the digital managing of whole production lines, companies, industries, the whole economy. Even modern trading or manager sim video games are unrealistic to how simplistic they are in truth compared to real business management. Only today really do we have the tools to seeve through the "big data" with algorithms and turned machine learned ai programs, to fine tune product manufacturing, recipes, ads marketing, or even shopping aisle placement. This is starting to be "cybernetic capitalism" but we already see its weaknesses, so really the queston is if those systems in 60s were realistic to implement at all with 1960s technology.

[@nowtopia]

Thanks for the insightful comment!

[@s3m1f64]

¡Vivan los trabajadores de Chile y del mundo! ¡Viva Allende! ✊

[@nachoqualsevol554]

it's so Star Trek from the 60s... absolutely incredible!

[@ellow8m]

We need that for postcapitalism

[@nowtopia]

Thanks for watching!

[@jonplaud]

Capitalism. If you are rich this is the best thing for you. If you are broke...not so much.

[@andycooper6085]

@@jonplaud Capitalism, if you live on Earth, it's bad for you

[@anthonymorris5084]

@@jonplaud How do you think people get rich? Were they just always rich? The Earth was created, and rich people all lined up on one side and poor people all lined up on the other side? Did a giant chest of gold fall from the sky and land on a caveman's head and he said "Great, from this day forward all my grandchildren will be forever rich, too bad for the poor? When was the last time a poor person offered you a job or created a product you liked? The entire Western world embraces capitalism. The West represents the most successful societies this planet has ever seen. Poor people get rich because of capitalism. Is anybody rich in a socialist society?

[@anthonymorris5084]

@@andycooper6085 If you live in the capitalist West, it's great.

[@kennethmorrison7689]

Capitalism: we're all toast!

[@mauromasterx]

Allende caused economical disasters lol

[@nowtopia]

The problems didn't happen in a political vacuum. The point here is to learn from what could be done differently.

[@s3m1f64]

It went fairly well for some years taking into account the FULL SABOTAGE by the American bastards

[@SinbathSparrow]

Plastic Pills documentary goes into detail how Nixon facilitated the economic disasters, quote by Nixon "Make the economy scream"

[@pini440]

You’re right. Allende winning meant that the CIA had to get involved. It was all Allende’s fault.

[@anthonymorris5084]

Socialism will never work because it lacks these 4 components. 1) The ability to fail: Companies only fail for two reasons - they produce a product or service that nobody wants, or they are mismanaged. Capitalism ensures their failure. Socialism props up failures for the sake of employment. 2) Competition: Competition forces efficiency. If your competitor is better at producing a product or service, you are forced to improve or fail. There is no competition in socialism and inefficiency reins. 3) The profit model: A profit can only be garnered by successfully providing humanity with what it wants, needs and demands. Failure to achieve this goal and no profit can be realized. Profits are in direct correlation with the success of the product or service. Profits incentivize and reward risk taking. Socialism has no mechanism to determine what products are wanted and needed and no incentive to create them. 4) Market pricing. This ensures that supply meets demand. When inventories are high the price comes down. When inventories are low the price goes up. When something is in high demand, competition is created, and more people are producing. When something has low demand, competition takes producers out of the equation and less is produced.

[@MattieAMiller]

And it can equally be said that capitalism will "never work" because of these 4 components. 1) The ability to support: Can it really be called failure when the ones who have succeeded before you impose rules which prevent you from even receiving the support to start? 2) Cooperation: The heights we can reach by working together far exceeds the corners we can cut in the name of efficiency. Cooperation also allows competition to exist on more even ground between the weak and the powerful. 3) Qualitative goals: humanity is not just numbers, and success should not be modeled as such. People statistically aren't happier if they buy more stuff, but the profit model looks better if they do. Employees who are paid living wages are less stressed, but the profit margin is more strained. 4) Lack of true free markets: if your house is on fire and the firefighters demand payment before they will put out the flames, you do not have a free market. That is why we have publicly funded (aka socialist) fire departments. If car companies make more money from selling larger pickup trucks, then they will build (and sell) larger and larger trucks. It doesn't matter that a smaller truck would actually suit your needs better. But probably the most important thing to remember is that capitalism and socialism aren't real. They are not fundamental forces of society, but merely philosophical lenses we view society through. Capitalism is a useful lens, but when we apply it to all aspects of life and religiously equate it to law, it breaks. Socialism also breaks under such a heavy burden, but that doesn't mean it is useless everywhere else.

[@anthonymorris5084]

@@MattieAMiller Except that capitalism *does* work. The entire Western world embraces capitalism. The West represents the most successful societies this planet has ever seen, by almost any metric you care to examine. Socialism has never worked anywhere in the world, at any time in history, under anybody's management. It leaves a swath of destruction and impoverishment everywhere it's been tried. It's born through dictatorship. It's authoritarian. 1) Nobody is preventing anybody from doing anything. You're speaking in vagaries. 2) There is plenty of cooperation in capitalism. Competition doesn't preclude or exclude cooperation. There are endless partnerships and you've missed the point entirely. 3) What on Earth makes you think socialism offers a livable wage? Socialism impoverishes the entire society. No wealth is created and there is no wealth to redistribute. Within capitalism wealth is created. Governments tax this wealth and redistribute it. 4) A fire department is a "social program" not "socialism". You are mistakenly conflating these two things that are not synonymous. "Socialism" is an economic system. A "social program" could be a road, a library, universal health care, police fire and ambulance, employment insurance. All capitalist societies offer social programs paid for from profits that are taxed. Your pickup story emphatically demonstrates your lack of understanding of the topic. Profits determine what people want. The only way to make a profit is to successfully provide humanity with what it wants, needs and demands. Failure to achieve this and no profit will be realized. If smaller pickup trucks "Suited our needs better" then they would be in demand and create a profit. If they were in demand they would be built and sold because a profit can only be realized by selling what people want. If they are making money from large pickup trucks, it's because people want large pickup trucks. They don't make large pickup trucks because they're cooler. I can assure you capitalism and socialism are very real. They are economic systems. Capitalism is a tool. It is designed facilitate the exchange of goods and services. It incentivizes and rewards risk taking.

[@waxon2]

@Anthonymorris5084 Respectfully, saying "never" doesn't correspond to the realities of learning any skill or new scientific discovery. Perseverance and intelligent practice are paramount. The few times that socialism has been attempted, there were powerful outside forces attempting (and mostly succeeding) to cause its failure. Your pure economic theory is well articulated and probably very enticing to believe in I'm sure, but it doesn't correspond to the realities of modern corporate capitalism where externalities and loss are nationalized and public goods and income streams are captured and privatized. The required economic feedback and incentives have been perverted. So this real economic system is not getting the feedback your pure system would require.

[@anthonymorris5084]

@@waxon2 "Never" applies because "never" accurately describes the situation. Socialism has never worked anywhere in the world, at any time in history, under anybody's management. Socialism is parasitical. It requires a successful host which socialism simply cannot create. Socialism fails and will always fail due to the reasons I cited. There is no relevance here regarding "learning a new skill, perseverance etc". If you require a computer, you can take a cardboard box, and paint a keyboard on it and make it look like a computer all you want for a year. it will not work because the fundamental requirements for it to work will never exist. The entire Western world embraces capitalism. The West represents the most successful societies this planet has ever seen.

[@waxon2]

@@anthonymorris5084 Hi Anthony, great arguments (except for the cardboard box one), but you're still not conceding an actual demonstrable fact: past failure, in any field, does not preclude future success. It is also impossible to judge the inherent quality of a system, for example socialism, when every attempt to implement it thus far, at least to my knowledge, has been met with immense external pressures actually attempting to crush this attempt. In other words, external variables have tainted the experiment. I would recommend more science classes and less business classes. Your grasp of the scientific method and rational argument uncoupled from ideology could use some reinforcing cousin :) I would also challenge your use of the words "entire western world embraces" and "successful" in your final paragraph. They are both subjective matters of perspective. To proceed further we would have to define those terms specifically. For example, I am part of the western world yet I don't embrace capitalism. I also feel that any successful society is one with clean air, water, and food available to all. If a "successful" society to you means merely hyper-consumerism, commodity-fetishism, increased alienation, and a rising GDP then you are of course correct.