The Problem(s) With Tier Lists

[@Sorrelhas]

There's nothing sadder than finding out your favorite character is top tier, which automatically means you're carried, except for maybe finding out your character is low tier, which has a memetic effect of making you lose every single match from that moment onwards because your character is bad

[@SingerOfW]

Yeah but then your character is a matchup check, meaning you're still carried anyways, actually.

[@Kurinth]

me play metera in rising and knowledge checking everyone on the way to S rank, hitting S rank, finding out she's a contender for bottom 1 and suddenly fighting for my life in S5

[@Komatik_]

For me finding out the favourite is top tier is the best, since character strength is a large part of their appeal for me (unrepentant tier whore). So if one of the cool characters is top tier, that's just perfect. Except for the next balance patch, lol.

[@Kasaaz]

There’s always someone who sees a tier list and thinks, “Yeah, that makes sense.” But that means they have no reason to comment.

[@pairofrooks]

nah we're just quoting 3rd strike char select

[@nellancaster]

Whenever I look at newly released fighting game tier lists I always go "ALRIGHT, THAT'S COOL" mainly because I can't actually play 'em.

[@shapular]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[@catdude3263]

On the other hand people who comment are like "Enter the heat of battle, go for it!"

[@bug-deal]

Yeah, I get the picture!

[@free_playstation_2]

Unironic suggestion Make a tier list video, talks about the characters in detail and list their positions and their tiers within their segments, BUT; put the characters on the tier list graph at completely wrong tiers and leave a couple common offenders where they usually are Read the comments for the people who are talking about the characters' placements according to the wrong tier list and just purge them

[@Toot_tube]

I was thinking this whilst watching. Another alternative is make sections and say "skip to this timestamp for the full tier list! :)" So the main body of the videos is the same but you switch up the end with the fake and talk about it for a bit to sell it

[@Pikwii]

@@Toot_tubecompletely separate, but Pokémon Unite KZbinr Spragels does this exact thing and it’s glorious

[@BrokenTekk]

I understand why tier lists cause problems but I really enjoy a tier list from a creator who I feel isn't reactionary when I'm getting into a game. I feel like it's a good way to get a sense of how the whole cast interacts with each other and the pros and cons of each character. But I also understand a lot of them exist purely as clickbait and engagement farming.

[@chriswest6988]

They're a good jumping off point. You need some kind of testable hypothesis (Blanka is better than Honda or whatever) that you can then attack or defend and break down into more nuance. And it's a lot easier for people to follow the discussion when you state your thesis and _then_ get into the details of why than if you just kind of toss a lot of details out without ever saying what you think they add up to. I think as long as people treat them as theories rather than as evidence, they're probably fine.

[@VerbalLearning]

@@chriswest6988 A lot of people according to my own observations can't stand the concept of treating something as "theory rather than evidence" (perhaps the word evidence can be replaced by "fact") because it means you can't neatly or even haphazardly just throw everything into a black or white category and then call it a day. Treating something as a theory means actually having to contend with the information to some degree or being comfortable with leaving things in a nebulous space in your mind or walking away without a clear cut answer. I know this is about tier lists, but i honestly feel like if people could treat arguments in general, whether it's about fighting games, politics, social issues, food or what have you, as "theories rather than evidence" as you put it, then the world would be such a better place. So much unnecessary arguing and conflict, vitriol, demonization and villainization of people and ideas would radically decrease and we would maybe, just maybe, be able to have some genuinely productive conversations that push things forward rather than being locked in needlessly dragged out stalemates because people refuse to budge from their entrenched positions. Sorry for the off-topic rant but you managed to touch on something that's been on my mind for a long time in such a nice and succinct way (unlike myself) and i just needed to get this off my chest i guess.

[@sibladeko]

I agree, I bounce them off my own opinions to constantly inform and better my own. I also don't think you have to be necessarily good at a game to have a decent opinion, though top player perspective is definitely the most interesting (and oftentimes the origin of outlier ideas that gain traction.) For example, SKD has convinced everyone around me that Grimnir is top 2 in GBVSR right now. His reasonings on why he is strong inform a lot of my ideas on why he is strong, but I don't agree with all of them and simply think some other characters are better.

[@yano4473]

Reject tier lists, embrace community organized and/or data driven matchup charts.

[@lemonlicious2288]

Match up charts are just character specific tier lists

[@yourdagan]

Scrap the "community organized" for solely "data driven" and you're more on the right path---yet even that unfortunately doesn't always accurately represent what's really going on.

[@yourdagan]

​@@lemonlicious2288The idea is that tiers are decided that way by who wins the most against the whole field.

[@evilded2]

​@@lemonlicious2288 Tiers list were originally the average sums of a row from a matchup chart

[@defianthound407]

Match up charts only work if both players fully know the match ups.

[@FireandIceMage]

The real problem with tier lists is that they don’t put my main low enough.

[@baboogah]

"and I didn't weep I just thought to myself: That's not good" damn I gotta keep this mindset whenever I lose

[@Hoariii]

What I wouldn't give

[@slimjimbo1461]

I think the problem with a lot of internet discourse is that people who have level headed takes don't comment and just move on with their life, so you are just left with only comments of people who are pissed

[@newphonewhodis7152]

I dont even know if i left a pissed comment in my life.

[@go-gogodlike6179]

It's the classic survey weakness. The only people who are gonna leave a review for a restaurant are those who had a phenomenal time or a terrible one.

[@count_rizzula]

We currently going through a tier list renaissance in the pirate warriors 4 community except tier lists for oppw4 are a little strange. Like imagine if your fighting game had 6 SF4 Seths and 30 SF4 Zangiefs but make it a single player game.

[@CrowFGC]

Who’s top in that game? I haven’t seen any lists

[@Sorrelhas]

Tier Lists in single player games are the wildest sh*t to me You should see Risk of Rain balance discussions, it's so goofy

[@killerkonnat]

Dude you can't tier list a Musou game lmao. Except the first one probably.

[@Sorrelhas]

@@killerkonnat People will try to tier list everything, even perfectly balanced single player games In Monster Hunter you get shamed for using certain builds, or for even using builds at all

[@m.czandogg9576]

​@@killerkonnat Nah, you can lol. IIRC in Dynasty Warriors 3 there were elemental attacks and some were definitely better than others lol. Not to mention move sets that had good AOE AND dueling combos.

[@Zakro116]

a friend of mine made a half-joke/half-serious powerpoint about zoning in GGST cause it was something that interested me, and as part of the “literature review” he put down Sajam’s KZbin and referred to him as “just a cool guy” and this video honestly really captured that feeling. tier lists are fun to talk about but context gets really lost on people so I don’t pay them much mind usually

[@nottelikethis]

Ah yes time for the yearly Sajam tier list mentality correction 🙏

[@mattsandvig7868]

I will say as someone who has been playing Strive Anji since the pre-launch beta, getting meterless confirms off of nagiha PLUS all the other stuff that he's gotten every patch this game feels pretty damn good.

[@abhishekvvs8622]

He also FINALLY has a light confirm, and Midare makes him a menace

[@peerlessvillain]

Keep anji down. Don't forget his +r crimes.

[@spideysquestionablyusedcha5069]

Absolutely crazy that Anji gets meterless conversions into wallbreak off one failed 50/50, but then again Leo and Ram exist so I just think Arcsys isnt great at making characters not feel snowbally and still be good

[@shyguy4617]

​@@spideysquestionablyusedcha5069 tbf anji is p hard to make good so the fact they did it is impressive

[@ElegantEgotist-114]

@@shyguy4617this is just objectively false. Anji is hard to make good in a way that doesn’t feel broken to play against, maybe. Is that what you meant?

[@WhyYouWahYoo]

Tier lists are only interesting to me BECAUSE of the context of who made it and why they put them there. Seeing other people's perceptions of a given game is way more fun and interesting to me than just looking at the image and getting mad because I disagree. All that does is discourage people from making their own because they "don't feel qualified," when all it would do is help us see how we each view the game. We need more beginner's/mid-levels/spectator tier lists. It's good to understand each other.

[@NrettG]

It's always the most fun when the tier list is FRESH after a grand finals lost and you see that character they lost to suddenly jump 3 tiers.

[@VinceOfAllTrades]

Ngl I love watching tierlists for games I don't even play/watch. I'll see some 2 hour Arcana Heart tierlist show up and just let it rock. Really interesting to hear about other games and their balance conversations.

[@TrinoElrich]

ngl B tier is lowkey the real S tier

[@bug-deal]

BS tier

[@m0ckyzo185]

"War has changed; pick a mid tier"

[@megapussi]

If I was one of these youtubers I would wrap up my discussion and then post a fake tierlist at the very end, and be like "ok now go make fun of all the people in the comments who skipped to this part"

[@SupermanSajam]

I already decided to do this next time

[@MisterMazoku]

Yknow Sajam, I was in such a bad mood, but then I watched your content, I checked out your tier list video and was like NICE! I HAD SUCH a dope day after Jokes aside you don't miss

[@jamesk2325]

re: the conversation at the end: favorite part of playing fighting games is finding some wild shit a character can do, playing them, and then going on about how ridiculous they are while you're playing them johnny card being able to counter practically anything on wakeup because even if you got hit it was an HKD was so much fun and you better believe every single time I caught out some DP or reveral or RTL even with it I was CACKLING at how dumb that was daisuke stole it from me but that's OK all I have to do is position the tiniest bit smarter and it still does basically the same thing god bless floor 8 wakeup reversals it's annoying to me when people go "This character SUCKS I hate this character they're BULLSHIT" at someone they're fighting, but you better believe I do it for every character I play as because I think it's hilarious LMAO good video, tier lists are a trap, love your stuff

[@genuwine21]

I love watching tier lists for the explanation to what makes a character good/bad especially if it is my character because sometimes there are things I am not doing that I should be. Same goes for other characters especially the ones I struggle with. It is nice to know what can be exploited. It also is nice to help when picking a secondary as it is the most up to date version of a character explanation.

[@3R9Sasuke]

Funnily enough, I love watching and listening to tier list videos. They help me understand what people value in the game and what characters are strong at which I might miss. Most players think about the game differently so I always feel like I learn something new

[@RealToyStoi]

I personally look at tier lists to see what order i should try characters in, starting from "worst" moving to "best" and then stop once I find one I like to play.

[@evilded2]

???

[@no_nameyouknow]

Need the low tier OS, I gotcha.

[@lookatmego_ohyes]

One of the things i love about sajam's talk show is that I can watch it while doing literally anything and still learn. I like that i can do anything and I'll be learning why spacing is very important in street fighter for example. It's great because i can play this and work at the same time! Thank you Sajam!

[@ShadyHitchhiker]

I never learn. I open a tier list for a game i dont play because im curious how its shaken out; realise im so unfamiliar with the roster i cant identify the characters off the little pictures, and finally close the tier list unsatisfied

[@BongWatah]

I remember commenting on one of Sajam's older videos in defense of tierlists. My point was you can still get value from the discussion and learning why X character is weak or Y character is strong (which I still believe). Then I got a reply saying "You can still discuss character pros/cons without making a tierlist" and it fucked me up lol that was like an epiphany for me. I still enjoy watching tierlist videos/streams but twitter tierlists aren't the play.

[@victorchen547]

Sajam talking about launch sin is actually so funny. I had the same experience playing against a friend who doesn't really play fighting games when trying sin out for the first time.

[@AdamJorgensen]

Nothing hammers home how F-tier I am as a player like hearing that Potemkin is mostly a menace to weaker players XD I actually listened to that whole SF6 tier list video with Punk and Kizzie Kay 🙂

[@scottbourg8741]

I am going to have such a good day after watching this video

[@axis8396]

The only ones I value anymore are ease-of-use lists especially since I don't usually play often so even though I haven't played Granblue in a month I can guarantee I can still do some basic Sieg or Yuel stuff compared to like idk Narmaya since I usually have trouble with mode change characters compared to just a stance/follow-ups

[@bugcatcherharold5315]

Most of the time when I see a tier list, my reaction is "I don't know enough to definitively say who should go where, but I can see where you're coming from in your reasoning." The rest of the time it's that except I don't follow their reasoning.

[@Solozocker]

gotta say i love watching tier list videos because i like hearing people talk about and analyse characters

[@mrpinguimninja]

I feel so much like the odd one out. Whenever I watch a tier list video, I look for the caracteres I like, I watch the segment where they talked about and then I go about my day. A tierlist might make me not be as keen to play a character considered weak, even though I'm bad, but that's about it

[@misterkeebler]

The tier lists I find the most helpful are the ones ranking easiest to most difficult characters to play, especially with notes/discussion explaining why. It can help me narrow down characters to learn a game with as a simpler entry point. High level standard tier lists I mostly watch just out of curiosity.

[@AgentownshipRebelion]

Damn Detective Sajam! Calling people out for skipping entire videos! I like the suggestion some one else said about maybe using the tier list format but not actually placing them in a way where people can just do "knee jerk reaction" as a social experiment. Been playing fighting games since the 90s. Only tried to get good when sf5 dropped and I still don't feel qualified to make tier lists at all. I'm on Eventhubs everyday and they post them a lot so its content I tend to skip or only glance at since their is so much of it.

[@bailey2107]

Dude I was having such a bad day. Then I saw your content and I just had a dope day after that :)

[@Call555JackChop]

I don’t use tier lists because any character under my hands is F tier

[@mattb6616]

People have been pretending May is top tier since the game came out, she's one of the most popular characters in the game with one of the widest player pools, and she's still never won a major, and she's gotten nerfs every patch. When will it be time to admit that May is just E. Honda and she's not that good?

[@Tillymander]

I find it so interesting seeing different peoples points of view regarding tierlists. Every player has different strengths/weaknesses so to someone who's REALLY good at sniping goldlewis's mixup opportunities might place him lower than someone who really struggles with BT.

[@blummie1215]

That last bit was something I didn't know i needed to hear

[@azarel7]

What you said about tier lists not applying to a particular level is so true. This happened with AB's post Japan tier list. AB put Ken below JP, Dee Jay, Luke, Cammy and Chun and persons didn't take to it well lol, but they're playing at a level that doesn't apply to the average ranked player.

[@mogullll]

I think there's a great deal of pleasure derived from passionate disagreement, it stimulates some part of your brain to see someone post something you disagree with, as long as it's not an unreasonable borderline bait post I think people like to see people have differing opinions. It makes you stop and consider out loud why you disagree with it and what you value in a character etc

[@thesacredbeast2000]

the problem with tier lists is no one rates my weird technical main highly enough until the end of the games lifespan

[@Vernafveik]

Thank You! I’m an Anji player and seeing the continued community downplay after 2 seasons of constant buffs is hilarious That being said, praise the players, not the characters.

[@shyguy4617]

Anji def is good in season 3

[@grendelicious]

I'm the kind of person to gravitate toward cheap stuff and ultimately feel validated when my character is S tier on a list lol

[@arcmage7000]

clip of him saying "that's not good" would be a perfect reaction vid bro it's so funny

[@Aegis_Crimson]

I look at actual tournament results more than tier lists. Of course individual players are a big part of those results, but if I see certain characters in top 8 over and over and over again, that generally tells me who to look out for. Besides that, matchups and personal experience are a big part of where players think certain characters go.

[@qspec2002]

I think the problem with tier lists are they are supposed to be this objective "if played perfectly" thing. What is the use of that... for literally anyone? It can (though rarely) be the jumping off point of interesting conversations, but not even the tippy top of players are playing "perfectly". It also usually covers an abstract time which makes it even less useful. Is it meaningful to know that my character is S tier in a first to two? That's barely enough time to learn patterns for most people. Not to mention, they completely lose nuance. Some characters notoriously do poorly against "weaker" characters. For example, last I knew, Axl did fairly well against the meta top tiers. I think the only thing tier lists really do is create artificially hype moments like seeing a good Ryu come up through SF6 or the Hakan comeback (forgetting that Hakan was winning in that match... see my above paragraph) or SnakeEyez winning a tourney with Pot. Those were all hype moments that were aided by tier lists.

[@mattb6616]

tier lists are about as trustworthy as two guys arguing over if Naruto could beat Goku in a fight and they know FOR SURE Naruto would win because theyve read so much manga.

[@lunamaster123]

To take the "If played perfectly" bit a little further, what exactly is "playing perfectly?" Since most (if not all) moves have some form of counterplay, there isn't a "perfect" move anyone can do and win.

[@kyx5631]

I have started watching some tier list videos and the person doing the placing just went " goes here, TRUST ME"; just is not good, goes here". Simply seepdrunning through some placements and that's it. Clicked off after a minute or two. Please explain your reasoning, what you value in a character, you thought process, references. This is what I'm tuning in for, not a random list that I have seen this way or slightly different in the hundreds already.

[@TheJbrown60]

Hey Sajam, I checked out your sandwich tier list video and had a dope day after that

[@Knives4540]

It can be interesting seeing where the pros place each character and I do enjoy seeing their reasoning behind the placements, even if I don't always fully understand. But I'm definitely guilty of letting a tier list cloud my judgement of a character I like/hate, and I do think sometimes, some creators make tier lists with the purpose of being controversial to get people to comment. Also, shout out to Diaphone's Rising tier list. It's the first one I've seen in a while where people seem to mostly agree on his placements, and it does help that he listened to viewers who had arguments for moving some character placements.

[@evilded2]

Tear lists were originally were the sum of a matchup chart but they don't stand by themselves, they give no practical information. Character strength is relative and will vary based on a multitude of factors.

[@no_nameyouknow]

Tier lists were always tier lists. That is why they are called tier lists, because they list character into their respective tiers. Matchup-charts are a more detailed breakdown of who wins against who and what their respective matchups are. You can use a matchup chart to make a tier list but it's not like that is where the idea of tier lists came from. I am guessing you know all this already, which is why I am confused as to why you would say what you said. Tier lists were specifically invented to list tiers of characters, not one list from top to bottom with each character ranked, as you would create with a MU chart. I want to say MvC2 was the first game that really popularized tier lists because that is when I started seeing them, but maybe there were others before that. It also makes sense for a game like MvC2 where there are definitely tiers of characters that are quite distinct in their power levels. Today, in SF6 for example, compared to MvC2 characters they would all be in a single tier because they are all viable and capable of winning. I just looked around and the earliest tier list I could find was from 2005 for Tekken, and it was definitely not based on any MU chart, it was purely vibe based, much like tier lists we see today. The rest of what you said is completely correct though. Character power is relative and depends on many factors and the biggest factor, especially with modern balanced games is player skill.

[@shyguy4617]

Asuka bottom 1 if opp plays Axl

[@zetsurin8267]

When I first got into fighting games shortly before SF4 came out, tier lists were a bit different. For what I can remember they were just matchup charts. The more positive and even matchups a character had, the more or less points they would have, and the higher or lower tier they would be when everything was totaled. Simpler tier list for a simpler time yeah, but I do miss that focus on matchups and extra context assuming two pro players of equal skill running 10 games for say 7-3 or a 5-5. Not so much just the gut feeling of one individual but something we hash out and calculate over time. Games were updated a lot less often back then but I still think it would be worth considering an approach like this today.

[@samh8296]

I think James Chen made the interesting point that those lists had the weakness of not accounting for metagame effects ie "zangief loses to everyone, but he beats some top tier character, so he's actually viable," things like that. Though I don't think most modern tier lists take those into account either.

[@Lipidman0]

"Simpler list for a simpler time" ??? How is that simpler. Those match up charts took a lot of effort and required many people collaborating. Tier lists now are made by 1 person who just goes by "feels" without having any in depth knowledge beyond their main and the most commonly played characters. By every metric a tier list gives you less information than a match up spread. Some people don't even order their lower tiers.

[@zetsurin8267]

​@@Lipidman0 Simple doesn't necessarily equal easy or negative. The MU based lists are something simple and straightforward to understand because the evidence and receipts for tier placement are all right there. As opposed to say, every placement being subject to opinion, worrying about potential down/up-playing, recency bias, etc. all of which would be difficult and complex/not simple to explain or put into numbers. As for simpler time, there was less of a social media/clout/content-for-views incentive for tier list videos and posts back then instead of being purely result driven.

[@Lipidman0]

@@zetsurin8267 I misunderstood then sorry.

[@jiito808]

He described leffens stream at the end

[@arachnofiend2859]

Snake Eyez

[@cecil6075]

tier lists get more useful once you know who mains who and which lists are made by leffen or punk

[@EpicurusStan]

Sometimes I'll turn on teirlist videos about games I play while I'm at work. It's kinda nice listening to people talk shop about a game I like.

[@w2rdog]

love your videos Sajam ❤❤

[@kerbonaut2059]

Okay, but like, Tene's tierlist inproved my mood significantly because it came free with him crying about Zato. Its just too funny man.

[@chunli1771]

I was in such a bad mood, then I saw your sandwich tier list and I had a dope day after that

[@gengarisnotinsmash...]

I have the opposite problem to most people where I often think my character is HIGHER than they are. Like, I looked at that granblue tier list and my first thought was "is this tier list ordered within tiers? There's no way Vira is bottom of B tier, she should be top of B at least, maybe A". And to be honest, sometimes I'm kinda spitting. In Smash Ultimate, I was of the opinion that Corrin was mid tier, when everyone else thought she was bottom tier, and I held onto that the entire time I played smash. Recently some smash tier lists ended up in my feed, and lo and behold, Corrin not just mid tier, but HIGH TIER.

[@astjuly8239]

Fact is: I don't care for tierlists because I see some random guy that uses a considered low tier fighter and is Legend, of Celestial Floor or somethung like that, and those guys actually inspire me. Point number two: look, I am not even in a level to really care about which character is better than other, I am playing FGs because I love FGs. And there are plenty of people that care (honestly cry and crucifies others for not agreeing with them) for tierlists and are like Silver, Gold, Plat, 7th to 9th floor. Another point, this tier list stuff (posting tierlist every week) is so gross, it's actually really boring content and aways create unecessary discussions when the content creator is just someone throwing stuff for content. It feels like Twitter. The thing is, honestly, tier list content is pretty mediocre. Your video slaps! Nice job, Sajam. And remeber guys: EndinWalker with Ryu, ProblemX with Gief, Naruo with Jamie, Paladin with Ryu... Just play whoever you guys think is cool and you guys are going to achieve best results if you put effort in the playing instead of searching for reasons to cry when looking for a tierlist that you agree.

[@AJMurdoc]

Sorry Sajam another tier list video by a better player come out that DISPROVES this tier list video 😎

[@alex2d]

The only tier list that got a real visceral reaction out of me is Justin's cereal tier list

[@ChromeGonzalez]

It's funny you mention the fact that most of these ppl just click to the end and don't both with the whole vid. It makes me wonder if it's worth actually putting effort in the editing process for each character that the player rates as well as putting timestamps. I've done some tier list vids for Jonathan Tene and Cloud and I've usually tried to put the effort into these videos to maybe get people more involved. I wonder if it's enough or if people are always just gonna click to the end, see the list, and complain

[@oramakomaburamako1087]

I love how the ggst tier list doesn't have Millia, its like everyone knew she is top tier above Ram Nago and Sol

[@SpringAubade]

I came to terms with this some time ago; at some point, it kind of clicked how tiers really only matter at a level of play I will never actually reach, so no real point in complaining about them. (not like there's much point in complaining about tiers regardless of circumstance, but admittedly, it could be fun sometimes)

[@Chaos1091]

I always disregard tier lists and just always go with: "Any character can be good in the right hands."

[@z1u512]

I like listening to people's thoughts on characters in fighting games

[@greenoftreeblackofblue6625]

People just truly wish to have a character with cool mechanics and be good enough to win against the other characters without the most difficulty.

[@sandythamtono2081]

You're right. I pause the tierlistand drag it to the end 😂😂😂

[@shadowmaksim]

I'm still of the mind that the vast majority of us don't play at a level where tier lists actually matter. Or at the very least, I definitely don't, I suck. It doesn't matter if I'm going against top 5 or bottom 5, I'm getting washed all the same. While on the subject, I've always felt like there needs to be multiple tier lists for different skill levels. A beginner tier list, a moderate tier list, and a top player tier list. A character that wipes the floor with beginners won't perform the same at a higher level. Heck, there are terms for characters like this, scrub killers. But at the same time, a character amazing at higher level won't necessarily be quite as good at lower tiers, either being too complicated to be played efficiently or the moves they counter just aren't common. Kind of goes back to that one video response Sajam did of someone saying they lasted longer against a pro than a beginner. Different tactics and all that. People will still complain but it'd at least be more interesting. As tier lists are now, they summarize way too much to be properly informative across most skill levels.

[@gamedierepeat3351]

I am guilty of skipping to the end of tier list vids, however I usually try to find where they talk about anything I disagree with and listen.

[@JayDayKay]

good yap session, thanks Sajam

[@renneschwarzer]

Tier lists divide the community in sections because in some games (Tekken) Tier lists can mean the death of your character. It only takes one or two popular streamers/influencers calling your character "broken" for a bandwagon of the inept whose members would rather see characters they hate get their legs cut off than learn the match up to demand changes that will leave the character you like become unplayable.

[@JCintheBCC]

I remember the grand ol' days of the SF6 launch when people were putting Zangief in A and S tier.... whoopsies!

[@shenwoo666hellbrawl]

TLDR: People have short attention span and don't wanna hear any explanation about character placements in a tier list lol

[@ukyorulz]

I love tier list videos, but I gotta confess when watching them I kinda fast forward when the character placement and explanation is similar to mine. I just assume we agree. But if the character placement is weird or the explanation is not what I expected I watch. When I'd seen all the characters I was interested in I skip to the end to see if, after completing the list, the maker decides to move some characters around.

[@ollolool]

I enjoy tier lists because I know I’m bad at the game and the most enticing thing about it is potential. Even if Nago has the potential to be the strongest character it doesn’t mean all counterplay is null and void, because if I get a really good burst then I still have a pretty good shot at winning. If zato is the worst character that’s also fine because he still has a shot at getting his game plan into a good loop, which may be hard but should feel very rewarding. Every tier list comes with the big asterisk that yes game plans can be extremely strong, but running it is almost always in your hands. Nago can fuck up, sin can fuck up, zato can get a bunch of good reads, and testament can get good reads, it’s all about the match you are in and not about that potential. But talking about that potential shouldn’t be any less exciting because it still takes a lot of skill to both embody that potential as well as working around your opponents potential

[@musacajelly2941]

I like tier lists because it gives you an insight in to what pros think is valuble in the current version of the game and if I'm trying to pick a new character, decide which character of a particular archetype to pick. Outside of that they're kind of irrelevant these days, most characters are about the same strength with the top 3-5 and bottom 3-5 being the only outliers and even then the strength gap between top 1 and bottom 1 is less then the difference between top 5 and low A tier in older games like Marvel 3 and SF4.

[@SpiralInstallGGSF]

3:40 I don't agree. If people truly just skipped to the end every time the videos wouldn't do well. Yeah, I skip to the end, I want to find where my character placed and then go back to where he ranked my character. You should show your completed tier list at the beginning. This is statistically how people best take in knowledge, they get an overarching idea and then go from detail to detail until memorized. This isn't a problem with tier list. This is a problem with putting the list at the end.

[@Nixahma]

The way I use tier lists is by checking every list featured on Dustloop and only considering the ones *consistently* in the same tier as actual valid placements. Testament is in the lowest tier on every featured GGST tier list and I think that's very funny, actually

[@The_Nei]

As a Manon player I have to take a break from iDom's stream. His negativity is reaching new levels never thought possible

[@mattb6616]

meanwhile he lost CPT east because he dropped 3 combos in a row. that was all him not the game or character. although he still blamed the game for the last drop.

[@redmagebr]

I think he should just switch already. I think he's probably still the best performing Manon out there, but watching his gameplay kind of feels like someone trying to force a square peg through a round hole. Like it feels he's trying to make Manon play SF6, but Manon simply isn't playing SF6.

[@mattb6616]

this is an insane take because manon depends on the system mechanics as much/more than most characters. she's the only one playing sf6 while Ken is playing SF3, Luke is playing SFV, and JP is playing Guilty Gear. @@redmagebr

[@shawnr8438]

I'd already dropped watching idom awhile ago because of his negativity. When I watched cpt east and he lost because of his combo drops I could only imagine his absolute bitterness. No thanks

[@redmagebr]

@Thatsnotgonnawork "This game sucks", "Manon is too weak", "This game sucks", etc. Manon is too weak, and he is literally a professional player which is the group most affected by balance problems, but most professional players kind of just go "Manon is too weak. Therefore I shall not play Manon", which is a far healthier life choice. I'd be okay with him sticking with Manon because he genuinely enjoys Manon, but the guy is clearly not having fun, and you can even see it when you watch his gameplay as opposed to, say, Randumb, or baabaa. I've always rooted for iDom, but this season is being pretty rough. I get the frustration, but it's peak salt times now, all the time.

[@emilyb210]

I have game theory brain so I love thinking about balance and what makes a character good, strong, or fun and how all characters fit around and interact with each other. That’s my favorite thing about tier lists, I also love pondering what the hypothetical “best” character is and why. I just love meta discussion and talking about game state and theory! So needless to say I avoid a lot of the dramatic or doomer tier list discussions lol

[@LostFaithHalo]

Always put your main higher than you think they are. Gotta check the bias

[@ukyorulz]

Sometimes I will watch a tier list video for a game I am mildly interested in, but don't want to sink a lot of time into. If there is a character that requires low effort and is good I might pick up that game.

[@lazycouchman]

When I played Strive Anji was always my personal nightmare with those dodge spins lol then he got buffs and I struggled against him more than Nago.

[@absoul112]

3:58 I fully agree with this right here. It’s been a while since I played Strive, so I’m curious if Anji is actually better or if it’s more of the last few times he got buffed and it did nothing.

[@shyguy4617]

Anji actually is p decent , still builds hella meter and his damage is still high, the new move he got fixed the issue w his auto guard being useless vs faster moves cuz you either A get a punish with good oki or B you get a guard crush. Meterless nagiha gives you a decent punish and since it goes p much full screen when Kara canceled it's p much the funniest neutral option in the game, other than that he hasn't changed much other than I think a speed buff to rin at some point to make it 20 frames instead of whatever it use to be( barely reactable but most people will still try to guess anyways cuz delayed nagiha is a thing)

[@ElegantEgotist-114]

He builds meter like crazy, and if he touches you while you have meter he’s breaking the wall, which gets him more meter. You’re always in his reach with Kara nagiha because it’s full screen, and he has a ton of health to make a bunch of mistakes with. Neutral is his only real downside, if you can really call it that, because he only has to be right once with spin to put you in a bad spot. He plays such a different game than everyone else it’s hard to decide how much better he is than them, but he is significantly improved from what most people remember him as

[@shyguy4617]

@@ElegantEgotist-114 genuinely I believe he really makes certain characters work hard in neutral like nago cannot just throw buttons out without risking getting slammed by midre

[@ElegantEgotist-114]

@@shyguy4617 yeah. Ram too. Most everyone complains about them because they’re buttons are super good against them, but anji sees those buttons and hopes they press them at him very often

[@shyguy4617]

@@ElegantEgotist-114 auto guard being good vs most of the top tiers main buttons helps a lot tbh

[@yugijak]

Honestly if tier lists were based on impression of how high the skill ceiling was it might be more interesting. As opposed to just raw power.

[@Ptoyoo]

Cutting out the leffen comment is so sad. I’m sure for monetization purposes but oh man was that comment gold

[@aeiuo42]

as a bedman player i lose a bit of my soul every time i watch a tier list video

[@fernandopires135]

Im one of the few exceptions that do listen to the conversation but yeah, everytime someone talked about my main they were wrong unless they put it in high B's/low A's

[@semi__colon]

i gotta be the only upplayer in existence. every time i see a tier list im always like "my character is WAY higher than that whatchu mean bro?". even more ironic cuz i main leo in GG and ken in SF which are both known for having the most downplayers of all time lol

[@Freakattaker]

The funniest thing at around 5:00 in what you're talking about is that I feel the same way looking at how people rate anime after watching anime for like 20 years. "Oh they put X show at 9, you know what, not too unreasonable even if I personally think it's a 7. The show's definitely somewhere around the 8 range objectively speaking in terms of writing and execution of what it tried to do." "Oh dang they put Y show at a 3, c'mon now. Their review is so biased towards it not having anything dramatic happen when the show is entirely meant to be a chill & silly comedy. They even admitted the jokes are funny sometimes but just hate that there's no characterization, bruh? It's objectively like a 6, but I particularly liked the gags and liked this one character for whatever reason so I gave it a courtesy 7."

[@chriswest6988]

It's hard to get deep into any hobby or fandom or craft and not have insane opinions on the relative merits of stuff no one else cares about at all. My favorite recorded example is in Bathtubs Over Broadway, where there are two corporate musical theater enthusiasts (corporate is not an pejorative here, I literally mean musicals written about company products performed for their sales force to watch) and these guys get into an argument about their respective favorites. It looks completely unhinged due to the subject matter, but is also eerily relatable in form and tone.

[@DuoMaxwellDS]

Tier list is actually popularity list that you should be prepared to meet in online play.

[@harrrieee]

funny thing about tier lists and match-ups not applying at lower levels of play: in SF6, Zangief has a 34% win rate against Dhalsim in Master rank, and a 73% win rate against Dhalsim in Rookie

[@newphonewhodis7152]

Reject tier lists, embrace "Picking the coolest character".

[@mattpk1609]

Im a tier list enjoyer in terms of discussion content but what i hate most about them is that when someone is in the last position of S Tier people always assume that character is waaaay worse than the First Position in S Tier.

[@Freakattaker]

7:13 There are some streamers that I found through YT and tried watching and quickly found I'd rather just watch their edited highlights because their moment to moment stream content was literally exactly this.

[@jeremiahwalker3795]

Another problem with Tier list is that most tiers are often used way to much and is over crowded.

[@SingerOfW]

This video clearly tells me people need an update on that middle school Guilty Gear class. I think we're ready for another season, just to show everyone how subjective tier lists can get.

[@time2sleep685]

Spot on 😂

[@SomeFreakingCactus]

There's a saying in statistics: "All models are wrong. Some are useful." While a tier list can give a useful snapshot of a game's metagame, or at least people's thoughts on it, but they are not a replacement for in-depth understanding. And different models would be more effective of conveying a metagame's state, especially for many combination/team-based, matchup-dependent, heavily skill-skewed, and/or gigantic roster-hosting games.