System Mechanics in Fighting Games

[@zenzaga2490]

sajam explaining fighting game concepts to fight back the twitter beasts when they complain is like sisyphus puhsing that boulder up the mountain

[@notbutz9737]

One must imagine Sajam happy

[@stone5252]

Sajam knew he could not change twitter beasts. Instead of reflecting on themselves, they blamed the systems, Heaven or Hell? DISCOURSE!

[@nabillun]

I love to see it

[@zettovyker]

Brings a whole new meaning to roll back lol

[@KittSpiken]

"How many of you are complaining about Manon or Zangief's drive rush?" Every Manon and Zangief player: 🤚

[@PipeRetrogamer]

bro, i'm just grateful that gief is even able to drive rush 😂

[@JCintheBCC]

@@PipeRetrogamer Right? On launch, Gief's burnout recovery was slower than everyone else's. But only Gief's. If Capcom would decide to nerf anyone's DR, it would be Gief.

[@soppo_404]

​@@JCintheBCCtheres no way that was a bug either

[@SupermanSajam]

You know what I mean!

[@ytcmbt2505]

@@SupermanSajam We all know, thats the joke of the comment

[@NRobbi42]

The fact that I've literally never seen someone complain about Gief or Manon's Drive Rush is proof enough that DR is more of a character specific complaint than a system complaint.

[@Zoth87]

The only people complaining about Manon's DR are Manon players.

[@MaGariShun]

The fact that they made the system mechanic especially gimped for some characters is proof enough, that DR as a system is so broken that it has to be tuned on a character level.

[@leithaziz2716]

I'm not even sure if Zangief's Drive Rush qualifies as "passable"

[@NRobbi42]

​@MaGariShun Every mechanic in every game needs to be tuned at the character level. It already varies by character and isn't universal like red/white Wild Assault. You could just as easily say that Drive Rush isn't an inherently broken mechanic, and only needs to be tuned for certain top tier characters.

[@Digital.midori]

It’s a system complaint. If you know grapplers will be broken with a fast drive rush why would you still give rushdown charachters a fast drive rush?? Why do some characters arbitrarily get better DRC buttons than others? It’s just very weird balancing

[@leithaziz2716]

I'm not sure if something changed about your editor in the recent content you've made Sajam, but I wanted to say he's doing a great job. Appreciate linking the appropriate footage to describe the examples you use for the topic.

[@NemSumeragi]

Still Moste, same as always 🫡

[@tentayeprimo6674]

The editor wrote this comment

[@bicksbernd1640]

Yeah good vid Sajam but you failed to take into account that the player I'm fighting has a controller and was pressing buttons, and that's where the neutral skips are coming from, also the sun was in my eyes and my dog ate my stick mid match.

[@VerbalLearning]

I was doing my Stance Character homework while fighting a Ken Player when all of a sudden my stick shortcircuited causing the shredder i have installed on the left side of my stick to activate (it's what i use to greet Blanka Players). The edge of my papers got caught on the shredder and now i have to rewrite my 300 word essay about why Gen from SF4 is the most complex and difficult to play, yet most balanced and well designed fighting game character of all time, all over again while blocking Dragon Lash and Jinryu kicks.

[@roadhoundd.]

My cat barfed on my screen, so I couldn’t see for half the match, no joke!

[@larryfoulke6196]

Yeah my dog’s girlfriend died

[@eternallydottv]

As a new player to SF6 and FGC in general, I wanted to thank you for your content man. I’ve watched most of all your sf5+6 stuff over the past few weeks and finally exited the training mode and custom room matches into ranked and placed plat 5 for the first time ever. Your content and attitude really helped make an impression on me with how to approach these games and avoiding forming bad habits

[@stone5252]

That was me 5 years ago brother, it only gets better from here on out :)

[@eternallydottv]

@@stone5252 it’s like suddenly something just clicked and I realized all the dumb stuff I was doing 😂

[@Bigparr43]

My personal favorite system is the Burst/Overdrive system from BlazBlue series. You can use it defensively with burst, use it offensively with Overdrive, and even use it to counter and do some damage using startup I-frames during the Overdrive activation into an Exceed Excel. It's the most versatile system I have seen in a fighting game. Edit: For those that have never played Blazblue: you can activate Burst to get out of any moment of hitstun to blast the opponent back but on a long timer or you can activate it any other time to activate a mode that enhances properties and damage of your specials and supers allowing for different and more damaging combos. The length of Overdrive gets longer the less health you have and you can hit a button at anytime during overdrive to initiate a meter less but heavily scaled super called an Exceed Excel but it instantly ends overdrive. Complex but insanely dynamic system with so many uses.

[@TheSeventhChild]

Or the FuRinKaZan button.

[@theSHELFables]

It such a good tradeoff. I play Arakune and the difference between needing my burst to get out of combos vs popping overdrive to activate curse is such an interesting decision literally every round.

[@Bigparr43]

@@TheSeventhChild lol, you are the only person I have seen that actually uses Bang. Good luck on those ladders though. I personally press my luck with Tager, so I can't say much

[@Bigparr43]

@@TheSeventhChild Arakune is the most infuriating to play against. Your angles are weird, you have rapid teleports, your air to air is amazing, and you can start spamming nearly unblockable setups after one optimal combo. Thank God you have a tiny healthbar and limited defensive options

[@jadendiamondknight5200]

A video regarding powerful defensive system mechanics would be a blast to sit throught. It would be a nice point of comparison between poweful, but reasonable, defensive mechanis, like SFIII's parries or KI's combo breakers, and really degenerate stuff like SCVI's reversal edges

[@leithaziz2716]

I thought 3rd Strike parries were controversial enough for having an omnipresent effect on the meta, but that's just how I've seen the topic.

[@Scuddi]

@@leithaziz2716the only reason is sf3 series, 3s specifically, was a paradigm shift. everything prior was the sf2 paradigm. people weren't happy it was fundamentally different.

[@El_Bukis]

Yeah, parries in 3rd Strike and Just Guard in SCV, which is basically SC's version of 3rd Strike parries, were way more controversial and powerful than Reversal Edge in SCVI. Reversal Edge sucks for the most. Alotta players kind of knew once people got their hands on the game that it would end up being a weak option. And it is. You rarely ever see it used.

[@Eji1700]

What? Reversal edge degenerate? It’s barely useable in competitive play

[@chriswest6988]

Yeah I'd love to see a retrospective on examples of defense or reactive counter play being too strong. The only things I can think of off the top of my head are individual characters who could escape and keep away forever once they had a life lead, rather than a system-wide problem. This might be because the games with overtuned defense died in obscurity because they weren't fun to play.

[@VerbalLearning]

System mechanics can also have varying degrees of universality vs individuality. For SF6 Drive Rush vs Drive Parry are pretty good examples. Both are universal system mechanics in that every character has access to them but Drive Rush is a lot more individualized in terms of how it works in detail. Speed, distance etc varies from character to character. On the other hand Drive Parry is fairly identical across the board as far as i know. There's no individual differences in terms of how the parry at it's base works between characters (maybe a characters size impacts your hitbox and thus your parry but that's not an inherent part of the parry mechanic itself, which is why i said "parry at it's base"). However, even if Drive Parry doesn't have any built in individualization, what characters can do off of a parry does still vary as different characters have different moves, with different frame data and properties (armor, invincibility and so on) so even a fairly or mostly "universalized" universal mechanic can still end up having different levels of usefulness or versatility due to character differences. I think one reason why SF5 for example became a bit divisive especially towards the end of the game, was how individualized V-triggers and V-Reversals were. Technically a universal mechanic but so individualized that some characters ended up winning big and being demonstrably better as a result and some characters lost big and suffered heavily also as a result. So if the character you liked (for whatever reason) just so happened to have gotten shafted in the V-system distribution there wasn't a whole lot you could do about it. And if i were to speculate i think there's a chance Tekken 8 might end up in a similar place because of the Heat System and how individualized it is. This isn't to say that individualized "universal" mechanics are bad, just that you have to be very careful and thoughtful with how you implement and balance them otherwise they very easily end up dividing the roster into winners and losers. Where the winners play the game as "intended" with the mechanic and the losers play a different game where said mechanic is significantly less relevant or useful and as such have to fight an uphill battle winning with what feels like less tools at their disposal. Still doable, but it's a lot harder.

[@ytcmbt2505]

Perfect Parry depends on your possible combo routes afterwards. Ken arguably has the best pp's cuz he can side switch with a safejump

[@syrelian]

God yeah some of the cast had terrible V-Reversals or V-Shifts that were just useless since it was like "Wow, I do a weird flippy do, this doesn't help me escape pressure at all because I just eat a jab after the cross-up" meanwhile most of the cast had like, useful "gtfo" Alpha Counter kicks and shit that actually got them space on hit Or you could just be Nash and teleport out all nothing personnel kid

[@LungDrago]

You're right. This has been true since forever (I started to play SF with SF4). Characters are in fact divided in terms of winners and losers in how actually useful the system mechanics for them are and that usually has *a lot* to do with their placement in overall tier lists. In the ideal world, it would be that you gain some and you lose some - maybe your character has a monstrous V-trigger but their V-reversal is ass. But the top tiers consistently are the ones who get to eat the whole cake - they have a monstrous V trigger while their V reversal is solid and knocks down - whereas low tiers don't get anything and they struggle to fight even the mediocre mechanic users.

[@Ryuji_danma]

Fighting game alzheimers has been a serious dieseas aflecting more people each year to the point were we are seriously having the same convos every new game every patch, people forget how things were the last patch from last week and the community doesnt realise theyre experiencing it.

[@bigeoof1804]

This video felt like it had just a bit of extra sauce that made it feel like the effort that went into it was just that much more. Very satisfying, 10/10, would recommend.

[@Sorrelhas]

They should add a detector to buff mechanics when I'm using them but nerf said mechanics when you're using them

[@bw4708]

Sajam videos fill the all-consuming urge to tell everyone in the FGC to stop whining endlessly about the games they supposedly enjoy 😂

[@swirlingtoilets]

I think many people have this idea of themselves in their head as an FGC Member or a Real Fighting Game Player©, but they don't actually really enjoy them. They play them and have fun when they're winning, but they just don't really enjoy the games as they are; they just like beating up worse players. If all of those people really confronted themselves and admitted they didn't really like the game for what they are and just liked the ego boost of beating someone, I think many would quit.

[@kiuju2k]

I hated SF4 with a passion. Not because I was not good at it (I wasn’t), but because I did not like the games system mechanics. I felt they were not fun. Sf5 as well. I really like 6 and feel it’s the most enjoyable Sf since 3S. The drive system gives me the ability to play how I want to play.

[@lucaswibisono1316]

@@swirlingtoilets does fighting games runs on the same issue that plagued CoD today? These days, people want to win by beating up noobs/bad players?

[@mattsandvig7868]

I don’t know why some people think this, but you literally cannot separate system and character mechanics when talking about balancing. Like, these things don’t exist in a vacuum. All characters have access to their unique kits AND also the system mechanics, obviously. That means they will necessarily interact with each other and affect balancing as a result.

[@gerardomercado5289]

Idk why people argue with this man knowing this stuff is his job

[@KittSpiken]

Because they're idiots

[@ZachHenke]

Why do half the people in Congress disagree with each other? It’s their job to know the stuff. Just because it’s someone’s job to know something doesn’t make them correct about everything. All that paradigm does for you is make you easy to dupe.

[@gerardomercado5289]

@@ZachHenke but this is a video game

[@leithaziz2716]

This isn't the most suitable example to explain why, but it's best not to become yes-men in a community. It's best to share your opinion but not treat it as an objective fact that people are wrong for disagreeing with. You want people to think for themselves, just not be idiots about it.

[@Nagstersept109868]

It’s Monty Williams’ job to coach the Pistons.

[@JaytsuVA]

- neutral skips aren't new - when you want changes to a system mechanic, consider what that mechanic is designed to balance AGAINST in the overall flow of the game - mechanics can be overtuned in certain versions, but overall serve a useful balancing purpose 66L and Brave Counter to your hearts' content lads ☕

[@lipidking4113]

Even if everyone had the same DR or whatever, it would still be unbalanced due to the difference in what else characters can threaten with and the reward they get off of DR alone. As you said, it goes back to the characters

[@Kool212]

This is what 3S problem was. Some characters by design could never be good with parry as an option.

[@kiuju2k]

This is true to a point. A character like Q does have a punish off a parry. Point definitely stands. You look at the system first and then you look at the characters. In this case, if parry was limited to a shorter window, would that make him a better character? It wouldn’t. The next step would be to evaluate the character. It’s really always been this way

[@syrelian]

@@kiuju2k We wanna talk people mauled by Parry existing, we can't ignore how it hinders zoning because fireballs and other keepaway pokes are generally very predictable or even just watchable, having A Fireball is great in 3S, pretty much everyone who has one finds uses for them in combos or area control, but none of them really get to play the zoner "I stay here, you stay there, we both hold down back until you die pls?" pressure game because you just kinda got to eat fireballs for lunch, they're not generally enough of a threat to close a game outside of chip scenarios, and then Remy/Blue Nocturne exists and they just cry at being bad AND a zoner

[@johntrotter7372]

You should start calling it "skipping footsies" and not skipping neutral. Because that's what people are not feeling.

[@superbnns]

I want there to be a secondary patch you can load into from the main menu for every game that has balance changes chosen by the community because that would be really funny. Truly, this would be grassroots.

[@amikawi]

You hit the nail on the head with Seox. I'm not mad that he can backfilp across the screen and twerk on me. I'm mad that he does all that and then when you finally get a turn he will parry at the first available opportunity. Same energy as Nier's DP and parry SSBA.

[@capellozapellini6074]

Sajam is that cool uncle who teaches you everything about playing fighting games so you can beat your little cousin. I love these videos.

[@lancergt1000]

When you really think about it as a move, crouch tech in SF4 is straight up insane Its a 3 frame, plus on block crouching light kick that also techs throws

[@zippyhealer]

I really like these short informative videos!!!

[@lilibryant2032]

12:52 he puts on the JMCrofts voice just to get everyone to calm down and listen

[@DrewBearYT]

Some people don't understand that making everything bad still means something is going to be better than other options unless everything is made the same. Strength is both in how and if something achieves a goal, and in relation to other similar options. Asking people to think is asking too much, though.

[@kiuju2k]

I agree with the take. At least the point you’re making is on system mechanics. If there is going to be changes for balancing you need to start there. I have been playing fighting games for 30 years and most complaints about new games are mostly the same complaints.

[@syrelian]

History repeats itself, people refuse to look back, even to things they personally experienced, and so we see the same malding time and again, its often just scrubquotes

[@jasonslade6259]

Another problem with how Focus Attacks were in SF4, a lot of chracters had really shit armor-breaking moves. Like if you're Sakura your armor break is fast and -2 on block and is a combo starter. If you're Balrog your armor breaker is like 20+ frames startup, requires charge, and is like -10 on block.

[@M2Nova]

Moste kiling it with the editing

[@ram_apologist]

Back in my day neutral skip meant either teleport or some obnoxious fullscreen armored lariat with plus frames, kids these days smh

[@azumopowah]

I think there's something to be said about left/right hand mechanic overload, at least in SF6 since it's a frequent topic. in 3s, parry was on your left/direction inputs hand, and just throw was on right, in SF6, parry, throw AND drive impact are all on right hand. It's no wonder the controller standard has been "mod additional buttons on to your control if you don't play pad"

[@sargewha1]

Interesting thoughts on granblue. I always thought 66L was used to make sure that characters could get come type of pressure after special since EX special into safe jumps are gone.

[@Vikaryous21]

I think that's part of it too, there can be more than one reason

[@HMFOG]

Hello, my kingliness, Mr. Sajam. Thank you for the entertaining and well thought out video. I would expect nothing less from my glorious king.

[@wult5044]

3:07 dude !!!!! i feel like focus attack was so much stronger than a lot of universal stuff we have now and no one complains about focus !! we love focus attack !!!

[@Toxin__0]

Sayjam should put out a tweet that says "Tell me your least favorite parts of fighting games" just so he can do a video where he tells them all that they're wrong.

[@DaneMurdock]

Must be tough to be this right out here on the internet.

[@JayBee20022]

bro said fireball YRC and my ass started smiling LMFAO, I'm guilty as hell.

[@gingercoleslaw615]

Moste has done it again.

[@DrizzleCrow]

I saw you, circling that "subscribed" button when doing those videos flashbacks. Sneaky.

[@wolflance64]

sajam's rant at the end about the cat boi is what i came here for.

[@lucaswibisono1316]

What's up with the guy...Seox, was it? I haven't got the chance to try Seox back then. I was mostly a Lowain player lol. And a bit of Ladiva to test the wrestler/grappler input, since I was so bad at it in SF.

[@tuesdaycreamsicle5200]

Moste hovering the cursor over the subscribe button lol

[@loikous5549]

At this point I think all fighting games should only have 1 playable character. Everything would be universal and no match-up issues. The best game really /s

[@sya_elexeor1058]

Literally just Footsies the game

[@WraxTV]

I do think Deejay is walking a fine line having so much of his selling point be based around DR - like I feel like if his DR gets nerfed, he'd need something else given to him to compensate. He'd still be a scrub killer who can do 70+% off an opponent's mistake, but the DR is basically there to deal with the cautious players who don't just throw their lifebars away on a gamble. I would like to see a SF6 Mystery Mod style thing that gives Deejay's DR to Zangief though. That'd be hilarious.

[@Call555JackChop]

Put your car in neutral and see how far you get, I came to press buttons and I’m putting that shit in 5th now block this wack ass mixup

[@Apocalythpe]

I love how well you break down the topics so a dunce like me can even understand

[@coolman5242]

If they got rid of drive rush, characters like Kimberly would be bottom tier. If they nerfed Deejay's and Juri's drive rush distance, no one would complain about it anymore. Personally I think drive rush is a fun mechanic, if not the most fun mechanic in the game. It's not perfect, but the game is only at Season 1 so people need to calm down about it.

[@ValGuard4801]

8:06 describing early for honor. Literally two mechanics are actually useful in year 1 FH. Dodge, Guardbreak(basically grab, only good early on because teching was broken), and Parry. There was no offense, no neutral, no mixups, no nothing. Even most defensive mechanics outside dodge and parry were simply bad Or horrendously designed. Over time they made offense strong and people complain CONSTANTLY. It was a staring contest at launch. Now that every character has a viable opener and defense isn't completely broken they cry. It's weird.

[@gamelord12]

Nah, Goldlewis needed WWA too. I mean not NEED, need, you know? But the big body characters also have slow movement speed, which means that their character-specific options are so much harder to use to solve matchups, and WWA does it with a meter cost, to remove the knowledge check if you're willing to spend meter to do so. One of the reasons season 3 feels so good to me is that those two new mechanics give you a way out without the character-specific options.

[@jasonslade6259]

WWA probably feels pretty fair if you're like... Axl vs. Potemkin but then you have matchups like Testament vs. Nago and you wonder why Daisuke hates you.

[@solbradguy7628]

Yeah Seox will do that parry every single time except the one time I decide to wait and punish it he will receive psychic information despite it being the first time I try to bait it and he'll know. He'll know.

[@Za_Phantom]

i feel like you souped up on coffee for this topic cuz boi you were going

[@Goku0467]

neutral skip with armor is fucking cancer ngl Super Dash is fair and easily punishable

[@--.--.--.--.--.--]

My biggest gripe with Granblue's 66L is not anything to do with any character specific strength. It's the universal application it has of absolutely demolishing spacing traps. There are no spacing traps anymore in Granblue. If your move is minus enough, the opponent will 66L you, and you will not be able to spacing trap it. It's easiest to see this with the other universal, 66M. Most 66Ms are lows that are about -6 to -8 when spaced, and leave you outside of the range of a lot of normals that could potentially punish. Instead of risking the spacing trap, if you block a 66M, simply 66L instead. You won't get a punish, but you are now close and +2, and there's no risk of being whiff punished because of how HUGE 66Ls are. It's absurd how good 66L is in many respects, but this is the area where I think it hurts the game the most. Spacing traps are so interesting, and they simply do not exist with 66L in its current state.

[@harrrieee]

a big thing about drive rush is all the ideas i’ve seen to universally nerf it are all garbage. some people suggest making it a punish counter state, but that would unfairly hurt characters with bad drive rushes like manon or gief whose drive rushes are easier to interrupt. people suggest increasing the cost of raw drive rush but that would make it so much worse for oki (rip zangief’s already shit oki) and for combos (like 60% of aki’s combo routes become unviable)

[@Lifeonmarszps3]

I just wish they would extend characters hurtboxes when they DR , it's ok if it's powerful , but it's just annoying when you're trying to check it and your move just whiffs and your opponent whiff punishes you on accident for checking his DR

[@aosidh]

Rose's backdash is the thing I miss the most about SF4

[@dhayris160]

I agree. If you don't like those things, play a game with no 66L or Brave Counter. I LOVE GBVSR, but I hate 66L and a lot of the Ultimate Skills are ridiculous. I only play a few games at a time now, even when I do play. I just don't like how the system mechanics are structured, so I just play other stuff instead of milling about in someone's stream to complain lol.

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

The feedback is important though. It's like they always say, "complain smarter, not harder". The day no-one is left complaining is the day the playercount hits 0.

[@Doombacon]

Talking about drive rush as a universal mechanic feels like talking about heavy punch as a universal mechanic. Both are buttons you can press to do an attack and every character has a different attack on that button. People really do be willing to come up with the wildest shit to complain about a thing they don't like.

[@zeywop]

im pretty hugh rn n i just realized im watching a sajam video of a video i just watched . help!

[@SamuelPierce-xg7hk]

If you play against custom characters with cammy divekick, dj drive rush, dragonlash, jp spike and departure, sumo headbutt, sandblast, yoga teleport, and spd and then go play ranked everything magically becomes fair all of a sudden

[@GarethXL]

8:00 tl:dr characters should be ryu

[@thelandlocksurfer]

Bro didn't watch the video. Don't be mad but these thumbnails tho. Chef's kiss f****** amazing!! eight thumbs up

[@Coolpopcorn19]

I was wondering why I kept getting hit when trying to dash block in Granblue, I guess you actually aren't able too! I guess I need to think about dashing as being more committal and trying to cancel into dodge.

[@Randomness-hz7kj]

there is a way to emulate dashblock, and that's using the Dash macro, and holding block while you run. when you want to stop running, release the dash macro, and your character will (almost) instantly begin blocking. you don't even need to hold a direction to make it work!

[@tunesntrix]

The neutral skip hate is like old heads who hate Steph Curry's influence on the NBA. It's an evolution of the game. Live with it.

[@notsonic]

Don't forget about heat

[@janematthews9087]

If everyone wanted a fair and balanced fighting game that does not rely on system mechanics or character strengths or individual experience in the genre or skill, that already exists. It's called Street Fighter 1. Have fun with that.

[@MansMan42069]

They don't know the can of worms they're about to open when they keep asking for sh-

[@KenjiAsakura09]

"What strength!! But don't forget there are many guys like you all over the world".

[@AMnotQ]

Thinking about Footsies…. It’s got rollback!

[@DJmouchi777]

Haven't watched the video yet, but my take is, if the neutral skip is a universal mechanic like Superdash/Drive Rush/whatever, it's no longer a neutral skip. It's just the new neutral. Something like, idk, Urien EX Tackle into VT is a neutral skip since not everyone has EX Tackle. 66L in Granblue Rising isn't a neutral skip since its a tool everyone has.

[@pilebunker420]

global mechanics are good because they give the same tools to certain characters that might otherwise not have access to anything similar to it. this and the fact that you have another dial to change, it's good for balance.

[@bugcatcherharold5315]

I don't really get the term "neutral skip" in this context. From a parry drive rush takes 11 frames until you can use a move and there's a game freeze for 10 frames, so doesn't that mean they flash green 21 frames before they can even use a move? Surely that means DR moves are reactable? Yes, it's hard to react, but isn't the neutral in SF6 jab when you see green and DI when you see red? Or rather, those are the two additional options on the standard mental stack of poke when in footsies range and anti-air when they jump. Like, that is the neutral, not skipping it? Maybe I don't get it because I'm a smasher and SF6 is the first traditional fighting game I've invested significant time into.

[@syrelian]

No no you have the right vibe of it, people complaining about neutral skips lately is "This move lets you go from Over There to In My Face and I don't like that" despite how many of them aren't even new concepts, the previous video showed off Vega (Claw) with his whacky full-screen walljump move from SF2, and Yoga Teleport is another SF classic, and if that ain't a neutral skip what is? Neutral skips as a concept of "Moves that sidestep the typical wrestling for space" make sense, but their existence is itself another layer of neutral, the same way air dashes and double jumps are in Mahvel, neutral is far more than "grounded footsies", and even footsies is vague and frankly a misnomer term as to why its important

[@evilweevle]

Sure you can say that with the screen freeze and also the 11 frames before you can press a button that you can consistently react to that and be able to press one of your buttons. The problem is though is that 21 frames is still really damn quick and then you also need to press the correct button to outpoke your opponent. Which is the correct button you ask? Well it entirely depends on which button your opponent presses and if you mess it up you will get counterhit for massive damage. Then you also are looking for jumps, DI, dashes, fireballs and possible whiff punishes too. In a vacuum drive rush alone IS reactable but the risk/reward is heavily stacked for the attacker for very minimal meter cost. Thats before you even take into account additional mental stack from every other option. Vesper arcade did a really good breakdown video on why drive rush is so good that you should watch. Hitboxes for certain moves are also pretty crazy with the extra forward momentum of deive rush.

[@bugcatcherharold5315]

@@evilweevle Well yeah. Technically reactable but difficult in the context of the mental stack is pretty much how footsies goes, isn't it? Jump ins are much the same, as are projectiles. In a vacuum you can react to most options that take you from neutral to punish, but when all those options are available at the same time, that's how you get a neutral game, right? My point is that neither jumping nor projectiles nor fast movement options are "neutral skips" - they are the neutral itself (or part of it).

[@greensky5328]

I can see why people would complain about offensive system mechanics due to them, when they are strong, feeling more opporessive to go against, whereas defensive ones are, generally, less jarring (Of course there are exceptions, 3s parry like you said.). I don't really see anything inherently wrong with drive rush, 66L or anything like that. It's largely a matter of taste, finding a game you like and learning how to work with the system mechanics, (Even if they seem overtuned.).

[@wolflance64]

i feel like shitty mechanics that get beat out by just blocking are worse feeling than oppressive mechanics that have OS

[@Zoth87]

Manon's Drive Rush is a joke, but I would not want to see her with an average one, she would be impossible to keep out.

[@thepicausno5561]

No, Sajam. Parrying is not a neutral skip. Moving forward while attacking is not a neutral skip either.

[@Living_Target]

I didn't know you couldn't dash block in gbfvs. Can you do it in rising?

[@syrelian]

Nope, and Dash Attacks have no cancels either, Dash L is a consistent pressure tool to gain Your Turn from neutral in terms of data, but you get easily snuffed if you're careless, and you can't get a whole ton off the interaction unless you have good buttons, plus characters with armored or parry moves can just eat Dash L for lunch

[@Living_Target]

@@syrelian not attack, he's talking about dashing itself. I was doing it pretty consistently last night so I think you can effectively dash block even if it does take a few frames

[@syrelian]

@@Living_Target I am aware, I was just extending the point about Dashing being rather unsafe to the fact that Dash Attacks are also all kinda risky if done carelessly And yeah canceling a dash isn't too slow, its not that you're overcommitted, but you can't block mid-dash so if somethin' comes swinging at you, its usually too slow to block on reaction, blocking as part of a planned advance is totally doable

[@graveaxel3607]

Balance for a game like SF6 seems hard, so many interwoven mechanics. It's okay to say 'I dont like x thing, but I don't know how it could be adjusted' . Im not huge on throw loops, but understand why they are there atm. First big balance patch for FGs are sick, cant wait for S2 of SF6.

[@joqqeman]

A lot of people struggle to understand how hard it is to design specific things in such complex systems. Lazy thinking prevails like it doesn't work right, I (and many others) can see that so the designer is a moron. They miss the fact that lots of similar things do work as part of the whole so nobody pays attention and every change to the things that dont work creates ripple effects. Its always easier to critique.

[@KWG-001]

Back at the Sajamagogue for the latest preachings of truth and reason in fighting games.

[@leonfrancis3418]

7:30 this is a very disingenuous argument, and I just got done seeing an employer use it to attempt to nullify employee concerns. People complained about several things, which triggered a meeting. His idea to nullify the claims was to take every complaint ever made, throw them at the board, give them the same priority and claim no one knew what they wanted because one person had one time complained about something, and he matches that in priortity to something 15 people are complaining about and providing valid responses for. It was me that called out the tactic, and asked him to place a number on the people making each complaint he'd put on a board. That clearly showed the priority of each issue. It was only then that we got a genuine meeting that addressed concerns. Attempting to use one person who whined about perfect parry to invalidate 100 people whining about DR is that same disengenous technique. The argument should remain on drive rush, not vague suppsitions on what people are complaining about on twitter, and how that supposedly invalidates other complaints. No dog in this race, just dislike manipulative stuff like this during communication.

[@Bluewizemon]

Not gonna speak on your personal experience, but it's not about dismissing concerns or invalidating complaints. The larger point is that Drive Rush (and other fighting game mechanics) have a holistic relationship to other mechanics and the balance of characters. If you make Drive Rush (offensive mechanic) weaker/cost more then how does that affect the usage of Drive Parry (defensive mechanic), something that PLENTY of other people have complained about? What tools would characters have against other characters with strong normals/zoning to compensate for a weaker Drive Rush? You say that the argument should remain on Drive Rush but it kinda can't, because this game is more than JUST Drive Rush. It's not something that exists in a vacuum and the inability for people at large to recognize and think about this leads to short-sighted takes and muddies the waters of discussion.

[@leonfrancis3418]

@@Bluewizemon When I say the argument should stay on drive rush, I don't mean to myopicly focus in it like the strawman you just created suggests. I'm simply saying you shouldn't try to use random complaints from Twitter as the basis of your argument when you're trying to debunk random complaints from Twitter. If Drive Rush can be defended, then defend it. Don't make manipulative arguments that are of the same thing you're trying to debunk. Like I said I don't care about this debate, I was drawn in on by Sajam's hilarious thumbnail for part 1 of this discussion. Capcom will do with their game what they will do and people cimplain when playing interactive games. I just like seeing communication achieved authentically. Sajam wants to pass himself off as the adult in the room filled with a bunch a of whining children, and if he's going to do that, things like this are important. You don't debunk childish arguments by using childish arguments.

[@Bluewizemon]

​​​@@leonfrancis3418 Not intentionally strawmanning you, I just misunderstood your point. But I get it, you shouldn't shut down a complaint by bringing up a different complaint. I alluded to the prevalence of strong neutral and zoning based characters from the likes of JP and Guile as a potential idea behind why Drive Rush is the way it is. You said that you have no stake in this and that's cool. Tbh it's no real skin off my bones whether it gets nerfed or not either. I'm just replying to set the record straight that I'm not trying to act in bad faith.

[@Juimhu]

Very well said and valid input from someone who is clearly passionate about fighting games. Is Sajam his name? how is it pronounced if so? Curious.

[@syrelian]

I don't think its his IRL name, but its said "Say-jam"

[@emperormegaman3856]

I don't know anythig about any of that, but in doubt, i think the solution would be to nerf Sol Badguy.

[@M00nRunes]

Its always funny to me seeing all the hate on 66L. Just like with DR i think its stronger for some characters (Djeeta) than it would be for others. In my case I feel Ladiva 66L is rather weak as shes just so slow to dash compared to others and it limits how effective it is for pressure and basically makes me forgo using it for neutral

[@RealToyStoi]

If they remove the cartoon step from deejay ill be sad, idc if it gets nerfed as long as he still keeps the animation.

[@richman6974]

I could hear sajam talk for 2 hours straight about mechanics and systems in games

[@wskywonder1681]

Sajam have a amazing tshirt that change colour at 0:40

[@MonkeyBiznessFGC]

The balancing of the drive system mechanics in SF6 is elegant, I think the game might have been playtested for years to work out the cost of all the mechanics so perfectly. The feeling of using a successful Drive Reversal with 2.1 drive bars while your opponent Drive Rushes at you with 3.1, your DR knocked them down, then you make them block one thing to burn them out? Incredible.

[@Khashmonet]

Im 40 years old. Am i too old for fighting games?

[@eebbaa5560]

fgc discourse makes me want to stop playing fighting games. fgc gotta be the most annoying video game community of all time

[@DuoMaxwellDS]

I take it you don't play Moba?

[@vortaheadthebeast8072]

I can’t really say much since I only joined the fgc when sf6 came out but from what I’ve heard so far. Yeah they’re kinda annoying

[@bicksbernd1640]

Ignore 90% and only listen/read stuff from people you follow. Otherwise you get stuck in a negative loop.

[@leithaziz2716]

Maybe. I just try to avoid certain circles in order to have a more positive experience when it comes to discussing fighting games. As a Guilty Gear fan, it's hard to find a suitable place where people *aren't* talking negatively about Strive outside of the subreddit. The most straightforward thing you can do is shut off Twitter.

[@KittSpiken]

Nah, it's great. A win is like a steak, so much better with salt.

[@Squiddy00]

Okay, but every game having some fast, advancing, plus on block system-mechanic move is still samey and makes games more bland. The problem is the ubiquity, not that they're fundamentally terrible mechanics. Every character has a move like this in seemingly every game people are currently playing. Even if those mechanics fit the games in a vacuum, even if it's more of a problem on some characters than others, it is going to grate on people. Imagine if every single character had a system mechanic projectile in every fighting game game that released or got a major update in 2023. Or they all had invincible meterless reversals, or counter moves, or whatever. Of course you'd get people complaining.

[@cj8494]

I like sf6 system mechanics but they feel very feat or famine to me. Which is fine but I get frustrated way to much some times

[@cj8494]

*feast

[@sapphire3051]

twitter fighter mfs could NOT deal with ssbu joker dash attack

[@rodeobandit1444]

"Omg, they can just skip neutral whenever, this game is trash" Honestly not even surprised people still have these kinds of takes in the fgc. The number of times ive seen folks lose and blame the game and/or its mechanics is too many to count. Like, brother i am sorry but not every loss is because of how "broken" a full screen ulti skill is (especially when its not unblockable) or bc they kept spamming drive impact.

[@51mattr]

Need to put your conclusions earlier in the video because you know these people are halfway done with their "you're wrong because x" essay by minute 2

[@shizo66]

people that complain about this kinda stuff usually suck and would lose with or without the mechanics

[@Bleargh64]

Sajam asking fighting game players to think 😏

[@no_nameyouknow]

This video is too smart and too fast and too true for these cro-mags to pay attention to. But still good stuff it's good that it's out there and now people can point to this.

[@Zetact_]

Technically cancelling a poke into an advancing special move is a systemwide neutral skip.

[@sladedari8595]

Did you not watch the video

[@EggHeadShowTV]

I'm glad there's someone like Sajam saying this cuz people like Punk are making it seem like SF6 system mechanics are borderline unplayable and not fair. This man Punk wants another street fighter 5 dumpster fire on our hands. Lol

[@shoaquem]

Ive yet to hear someone complain about JP's DR... 🤔 Kind of ironic, right lads?

[@AugustBurnsRed181]

Drive rush or whatever sucks. It’s a non fadc focus. Ruins neutral entirely.

[@elijahoneill5228]

Super dash

[@Upsetkiller456]

Honestly I prefer system mechanics since that makes it universal. I will die standing on the hill that Combo/Counter breakers is the sickest shit; Not a neutral skip but a system mechanic.

[@DHSPITROCKS]

If 66L didn't teleport you half the screen with a active hitbox id be more okay with it. It can be so hard to check even when I know exactly when its coming. There should be a whiff mechanic on spot dodge or something, most the time its still plus.

[@syrelian]

"teleport you half the screen", now I'll admit, I don't know the whole casts Dash L's yet so maybe I'm missing or forgetting a really obvious one, but none of the ones I know are that fast, Gran has a decent run-speed before Dash Attack which does let him cover ground, but his Dash L is actually not that far reaching on its own, also it dies to like, any sweep or meaty button because its just an L, you win clash scenarios, or just use a fireball during the dash portion, you can't block during a dash and even if you stop there's a brief delay before you return to neutral to block(and if they block you still stopped the advance)

[@ewww21]

Yea but fuck throws in SF6 honestly. It feels super inconsistent and people will mash throw at poke range to throw you when you connect, then you're stuck in a throw loop.

[@joedatius]

dude thats been a thing since SF3 and earlier its called a tick throw