The Problem With Keyboard Switches

[@detecta]

the untold truth: overpriced

[@viewmodel]

:steamhappy:

[@dooms8870]

The more it looks like we can eat them the more expensive.

[@rockets4kids]

Switches aren't *nearly* as overpriced as keycaps.

[@Dreamingtempo]

This was such a great watch. Loved the overall informative tone while also reinforcing that preference is king in any sort of hobby like this. It is always good to be a researched and thoughtful consumer, but in the end you can just like something because you do and it doesn't have to meet a number scale or make sense to others. Well written and delivered with such calming visuals. Thanks!

[@wangissac5269]

I have tried so many mechanical switches, I know there's probably no existence of the best switch, but for me, if I put two switches in comparison I can always find out which one is better. Since mechanical switch is pretty small component, the more precise each part was manufactured the better performance it has. The sound is also a subjective preference, but in my opinion, nobody likes sound that is dissonant and inconsistent ofc some people prefer high pinch sound and some prefer deeper sound, but I have never heard someone enjoys the spring noise or the leaf noise. So, objectively there is a criteria to evaluate the quality of the switch (even lubing can not save some terrible manufactured switches). Here are some my personal standards to rate a switch: smoothness, noise level, quality of the material being used, price, aesthetic, compatibility, accessibility, longevity.

[@XeroOl]

some switches just feel very different. I don't think there is an objective answer to if tactile or linear switches are better, for instance

[@deepsp_ce]

well, today you will hear someone who enjoys the leaf noise of mx browns. hi, it is me 👋

[@milktoothnu]

Thank you for your quality response which I generally agree with. A switch's goodness is subjective, but there are some baseline objective qualities that a switch must have such as the longevity you've mentioned; if a switch is known to be faulty, then the sound and feel won't really matter at all!

[@wangissac5269]

@@deepsp_ce that's actually shocking but I am happy there are people who likes that

[@deepsp_ce]

@@wangissac5269 😁👍 ghv4 lubed browns avoiding the bump is god mode

[@__-ry7zx]

I'm not sure how technological something is, is the wording you're looking for. It's like saying the definition of insanity is someone who does the same thing over and over and expects a different result, just because it's said that Einstein said so. Scarcity creates value in almost every market, no matter how 'technological' it is. The point of measurements and quantification is to attempt to allow people to truly understand something. Without quantification you could tell me a switch is heavy or light, but relative to what? If you tell me that a switch is 50g and I have a switch that's 67g, then I know exactly how much force will be required compared to the amount of force required to actuate my current switches. Quantification and objectivity, even if not now achieved can help people make better purchasing decisions. Measurements are for understanding things with minimal biases. You are very much correct about the overuse of words like thocky, and I think quantification of sound measurements could help with that. Wisdom of the crowds is really only proven to work if the individuals don't talk to each other. Generally the sound of a keyboard is perceived more in the community more than the looks, so following trends there would most likely be important. Of course trends will lead to irrational exuberance, because wisdom of the crowds doesn't work when the individuals communicate with each other. To follow your analogy about fashion, there are many different styles. What looks good to someone who likes flamboyant fashion, won't always look good to someone who's into goth fashion. We have our preferences and I think we should follow those, not just for switches, but also for the rest of our build. There is a certain amount of qualitative data required to know what you like, however I don't think the answer is to completely disregard quantitative data.

[@HeyMaruniko]

Man we need this kind of content for keyboard community, the thought provoking content that actually can break status quo that happens often on keyboard hobbyist.

[@justanotherpxrson]

For me, its just about collecting and trying new things at this point. I know there will never ever be a perfect switch, and thats fine. That's not what I'm really looking for. I just like collecting and being able to talk about it with other people.

[@__entiendo]

This video was so real. After buying gateron oil kings, I have just been so disappointed by any other switches I have bought afterwards. This is not because all new switches are terrible, but because I realized that the gateron oil kings are enough for me to not have a desire to buy more switches. These manufacturers keep designing more switches that are almost all the same with minute differences and colorways to keep us buying switches, not that it is an evil conspiracy but I think at least for the linear crowd, it is hard to tell the difference in most of the new switches because modern linear switches are smooth and the stock experience is already pretty good for all of them.

[@Aleph_Null_Audio]

I recently tried Oil Kings and went back to G Pro 3 Blacks almost immediately. Just goes to show there's no accounting for taste! I think we're seeing manufacturers try a bunch of new things because they know they can sell at least the initial batch. I think in the years to come we'll see some configurations become well established and see a lot of the minor variations fall away.

[@punkshoo]

Great production quality on this vid. You ask what's important when picking a switch. Its basically everything. Look, feel, sound, quality, and reputation. At least if you're a true enthusiast. There's no "linear gang", "tactile gang", "long pole gang", etc. They're just switches and experiencing new designs is just fun at its core. Wobble or no wobble? This bump vs that bump? Clack vs "thock"? Yes, the landscape is massive and overwhelming to many but that is the glory of it. Sure its daunting for people with decision paralysis who latch onto the contrived idea of "perfect switches" but at the end of the day its a wonderfully beautiful sandbox. If we just let go of the notions of finding the ideal switch and simply enjoyed the neat new things that are coming out it would remove much of the complication. Especially when you have sites like Switch Oddities which offer singles for you to try out and have a plethora of options to choose from. So what exactly is the problem? Not quantifying what "clacky", "thocky", etc mean? Having options with this integral piece of hardware in the hobby that truly allows us to customize the look, sound and feel of our keyboard experience? The problem is a frame of mind and limiting oneself to a single "perfect custom".

[@justanotherpxrson]

Well said. I have been saying this kind of thing for a while: endgame isn't an actual thing, but rather a mindset. I never entered this hobby with endgame in mind. I just enjoy collecting and trying new things, especially switches. No switch is perfect, and no switch will ever be perfect. Searching for perfection is kinda pointless imo. More people need to realize that.

[@StripedJacket]

Imo it felt like he talked for so long to say…. nothing?

[@yowamidesu]

In my quest to upgrade my setup I came across the custom keyboard community. I nearly got sucked into the rabbit hole but thankfully, after buying a split ergonomic mechanical keyboard and a Wooting Two he, I think I've satiated the urge to delve any deeper. That said, after spending some time in the Wooting discord and watching keyboard youtubers, I've come to the conclusion that the custom keyboard community is a subset of the audiophile community. The aim of many is to not only build a keyboard that sounds good to them, but build one that sounds good to others. Naturally, this will lead to people following trends as switches are more or less the foundation of a keyboard's sound. There's probably an audiophile analogy that could be made there but I lack the knowledge to do it properly. Lol

[@mahoslash]

>> I've come to the conclusion that the custom keyboard community is a subset of the audiophile community. From my perspective, the custom keyboard community might be even in a worse state than the audiophile community.

[@youtub586]

I've been getting into keyboards for the past 4 days and consuming a lot of content with much dissatisfaction. This video points out many of the problems plaguing some of the larger keyboard youtubers. Thanks

[@duongpham-zj6hv]

dude, the cinematography and the comprehensive amount of information you convey. words fail me bro

[@adamlen85]

This is what i needed to hear, I just bought my first hot-swap customizable keyboard with tactile switches and love the feel and feedback from the typing experience. It's slightly a bit noisy for my liking. I started looking at linear switches because it seems like the trend but after this video I'm thinking try to find a quieter tactile switch or learn how to dampen the overall sounds than to loose the tactile experience. Thanks for the wise words

[@JNitroxx]

There are tactile silent switches tho. The Outemu Limes showed on this video are one of these. You have Outemu Silent Peach and Silent Toms as well. You can have both silent and tactile switches. :)

[@gamingsoups]

I've come to some realization recently that so many switches are just recolors all recolors of certain switches. it's just given me some thought

[@xxcridonxx7614]

*Cough* JWK *Cough*

[@veldanen]

My guy, this is a good watch and definitely an interesting take on the keyboard hobby as a whole. The only point I would contend against is your view of comparing switches to Natural Resource. The fact of price increase and scarcity alone as points of similarity for only certain 'relic' switches does not make the entire array of switches a commodity, but a mere novelty and 'collectible' that only certain minority of enthusiasts would chase. Old switches are probably more akin to comics, guitars, trading cards, and vinyl records, IMHO. The other obvious argument, is that they are far from being 'natural'. It's entirely man-made. And the majority of consumers won't give a lick about mechanical switches where you can easily buy a keyboard that cost less than a set of 80 switches (and not even counting the cost of keycaps). Switches in general are starting to flood the market, and it has become cheaper and better. The hardcore hobbyist might scoff at the cheaper switches, but the fact is anyone now can build their keyboard at a budget, with plenty of options to choose from makes this hobby purely technological. Still, very curious to see what other videos you'd put up next. Cheers.

[@milktoothnu]

Hey Vince, Thanks for your great comment. Definitely made me re-think my argument more. I agree with you in that the logic of the enthusiast interest in 'relic' switches is inapplicable and separate from the logic of mass-market, commoditized switches. I would thus restrict the topic of my video strictly to the enthusiast side of things. As you've correctly noted, "the masses" merely want something mechanical (and likely budget-friendly) to type on: switches are therefore fungible for them. My guess, though, is as they advance in the hobby, switches become increasingly non-fungible. As you begin to discover your own preferences, naturally you should become more selective. At this point, the hobby becomes increasingly non-technological and preference-based.

[@bigMax1337]

04:02 oh let me introduce you to the retro computer scene and escpeically retro gaming. The pricing with tech seems to follow a u shape. So as some things get older and there are less on the market, there seems to evolve a group of people that want have interest in this tech for nostalgia reasons.

[@ramonrodrigueziv1742]

Easily one of the most pseudo intellectual nonsensical videos I have ever seen.

[@jinxedpenguin]

Great video! Glad this popped up in my recommended. Hopefully you get more views :)

[@iatwiatw]

Good video, although you definitely cherry picked your examples to better align with your points. Improvements in manufacturing and innovation have had effects on switches that are empirically measurable. Just to give two examples: Keychron and Wooting. Keychron has made quality mechanical keyboards more affordable with the help of manufacturing at scale. This wouldn’t have been possible without advancements in manufacturing, among other things. And so, just as with chips, we get nice keyboards for cheaper. Wooting’s analog switches are demonstrably better than mechanical and membrane switches because of their multiple trigger points and the customizable nature of those trigger points. As a result, you can do things with a Wooting keyboard that you can’t do with other switches. Many of your recommendations still stand, however I think you’re conflating the pressure exerted by influencers and the online bubble with the technology itself. Just like you said, the focus on switches and mech kbs in general has been shifting more and more towards its sound, feel, and looks. This isn’t the fault of the people innovating in more measurable ways, nor should it be taken as a sign that switches are empirically worse or better than before. To use your own examples, there have been vast improvements in both shoes and clothes. It’s just that marketing focuses on more abstract stuff precisely because they’re vague and malleable, and thus susceptible to the hype cycle. The conclusions of this video are still worth listening to of course, despite arriving there from a suboptimal argument. If you ask me, it’s not switches that are the problem. It’s the custom mech kb scene and process in general. If you want to talk about doing less with more, talk about group buys and the persistence of limited or scarce case and board bundles. Reviewers and influencers barely notice this because they get stuff for free and early to promote those custom mech kbs. But these dozens if not hundreds of kits and the process by which they’re made is absurd. Switches, case bottoms, weights, and even pcbs in different colors, even though you’re never going to see them, all artificially drive up the price. And the group buy process also artificially drives up the price of these kits, even though empirically none of them are innovating in a sustainable or practical manner. They’re mostly lateral changes that again cater to preferences instead of to actual improvements in performance, quality, and affordability. Flex cuts, form factors, knobs, materials, suspension, LED strips, coiled cables - all superfluous stuff. Like you said, there’s nothing wrong about having preferences, but the skewed bias against these subjective elements are the ones forcing stagnation. But as long as influencers and enthusiasts keep supporting and talking about group buys and such subjective tech, this state will continue. Barely anyone can afford or find an Angry Miao, but you wouldn’t think that with the amount of coverage the brand gets. Reviewers also rattle off dozens of kits, keycaps and switches as if they were readily available, but the moment you try and put one together yourself you’re in for a frustrating and expensive hunt, and just like you said, all of that for something that’s extremely subjective and hard to determine if they truly align with your preferences based on watching or hearing about them alone. More discussions like this that remind us about value and functional improvements are needed to balance the hype.

[@milktoothnu]

Hey there, Thanks for the well thought out comment. It was great to read and made me examine my own points furthermore. I think I generally agree with you but I think there's room for debate on a few points: Keychron's rise, along with that of Qwertykeys and similar budget-friendly brands, are indeed a reflection of the growing popularity of the keyboard hobby. With economies of scale, in terms of price, you are definitely doing more with less, i.e. it's technological. On the other hand though, you still have a thriving scene of high-end, limited run group-buy keyboards that cannot be said to be technologically better, yet have high social/symbolic/cultural value. My point is that it is incorrect to squish those two categories-the budget-friendly and the high-end-into one category. The exclusivity and high price here is a feature, not a bug. Your personal opinion may be more sympathetic toward the former but we shouldn't deny the legitimacy, at least in concept, of the latter. In general, I think your logic still falls under a technological mindset. For example, you mention "Flex cuts, form factors, knobs, materials, suspension, LED strips, coiled cables - all superfluous stuff." With a technological mindset I agree-you can't objectively measure the good and bad of such things. But couldn't that be said about the entire keyboard hobby? Even using your Wooting analog switch example-are multiple trigger points really that much better, "objectively" speaking? It's certainly a nice feature for some, particularly in a gaming context. But I'm hesitant to say analog switches are an objective improvement over mechanical switches in the same you would say a computer chip improves year-over-year from its predecessor. Let me know if I misrepresented any of your points. Your comment was very engaging to read. In general, I think we need more of this sort of discussion within the community.

[@bj0rnen]

I got into mech keyboards at the beginning of this year. I tried a variety of switches and settled on Boba U4Ts. I gave linears a fair shake with Gateron reds and milky yellows but didn’t feel the need to invest in any fancier linears because I just like the really tactile ones. At first I felt like perhaps my tastes weren’t as refined as the veterans imply but your video makes a good point about this attitude being a reactionary one rather than being based in anything really objective. It’s fine to have different preferences and to settle on your personal one fairly quickly.

[@robr640]

Awesome video, so glad to see more KB enthusiasts breaking from the hive mind. For me feel & sound are all switches are about, do I like the feel & sound I should further clarify. The HP craze definitely taught me a good lesson as I spent way too much time & money chasing what ultimately was a very uncomfortable switch for me to use. Best bet is to test a small batch of switches you're considering first, before buying a full batch. It is kinda tough though as it is hard to get a true feel for the switch with just a few of them in a tester. Although IME the more boards you build & more switches you try, you will start form general opinions on your switch preference that will greatly help you narrow down the field. The biggest thing IMHO is DO NOT follow the hive mind, what you like is not gonna be the same as what someone else likes. Like Cherry browns for example which have become a much derided switch in the community. If that is what feels & sounds good to you, you will not being doing yourself any favors by not using them cause they're not the community prefered switch. In fact you'd be actively working against a good typing experience for yourself by doing so. This hobby is all about choice & preference, you are not gonna like every switch you try & not favor the same qualities in a switch other people do. Without that choice & preference we do not get even a quarter of the cool switches, boards, & keycap sets we got. Embrace what you like & don't fall into the meta!

[@milktoothnu]

Thank you for sharing your 'learning curve' in the hobby. Great read

[@tomclanys]

I'm a fan of the browns myself!

[@mikano8664]

I'm just beginning to dive into this hobby and I'm so glad I stumbled upon your video! I must say, it's so overwhelming and I quickly found myself scouring forums trying to wrap my head around which exactly is the "best" switch, best board, best everything. This led to my estimated budget jumping up very quickly. My conclusion from all my research and this video reinforcing said conclusion-- fuck it. I'm gonna get what I want!

[@Cheffamily]

never thought that pings of all kinds would be such a big problem before building a keyboard. now pinglessness is my no.1 criteria of judging whether a switch is good or not.

[@anthonywspt]

damn. even though you just started 2 months ago, your videos are some of the finest quality videos i've ever watched regardless of the video topic, mad respect. about your question. my favorite switch is oil kings. what makes me value them is they're really good stock/factory-lubed switches. in my mind it's not fair to compare switches at their best, rather at their stock condition. but of course some other switches could fit my description, i chose oil kings specifically because of the overall preferences that suit me.

[@milktoothnu]

Thank you, really appreciate it. I love the Oil Kings too. And agreed, when reviewing switches I think it's generally better to review them stock. Maybe I'll make a video on my methodology when it comes to switch reviews in the future...

[@BlindTimeLord]

Personally I love tactile and clicky switches. Feel is very important to me. I would say that I probably go for the creamier sounding switches honestly. You make some very good points and I like the fact that your trying to stay impartial. I would love to hear more in depth reviews on switches, sound tests and overall general thoughts etc. Plus links on where to purchase them from. Keep up the good work guys

[@El_Paco]

What brand of phone is this? It looks really interesting, I immediately paused on the 20 sec mark to take a look at it.

[@re.liable]

I think keyboard enthusiasts are a lot like audiophiles. Best thing is, part of my foot is in the former, and part of the other in the latter. Hahaha

[@milktoothnu]

The comparison with audiophilia is very interesting. Out of curiosity, how do you choose the best audio equipment? Always been a world that's foreign to me

[@JoelHernandez-tz3vk]

​@@milktoothnuI wonder if the most important part of choosing audio equipment is accepting that there's no such thing as audio nirvana.

[@JadedJawnee]

Amazing video! If you do this from now on, you will inevitably reach 1000 subs. Even 10,000 is not a dream. Please keep it up. It was fun to watch and listen to :)

[@cbubbb]

it's really satisfying how you format your videos, they really helped cut through all the confusion of choosing something physical through a screen with their lovely switch-feel metaphors (chocolate snapping, billiard balls kissing etc). Reminded me a lot of LondonRain's videos, maybe it's the cinematography (really nice too). Anyway. keep it up! really enjoy your videos :)

[@Caution40404]

4:05 the most critical question is, what is a cat doing in the factory?

[@DivideTimes]

Last years trend was flex cut, flex cut, flex cut. This year is super anti flexcut

[@momo.ru-kun]

This is why as an Engineer, I never bought overpriced switches. Switches primarily rely on mechanical design principles rather than advanced technology, with the bulk of their technological complexity residing in the manufacturing process rather than in the individual switch as a standalone product. Similar to a carpenter, who can achieve remarkable results and refine their craft with the appropriate tools, the focus is often on the tools of the trade rather than solely on the final product itself. The issue with keyboard switches pricing lies in the fact that despite initial manufacturing investments being covered, the manufacturing costs do not decrease over time as expected. Instead, they tend to increase, even when manufacturing tools are readily accessible. As technology becomes more accessible, the general trend is for production costs to decrease. However, switches seem to defy this trend by becoming more expensive over time, which hobbyists should not accept as predatory pricing practices.

[@ShaXCwalk]

This was quite informational. Subbed!

[@dalarcoin6851]

this video is the definition of underrated

[@DemVidzIsMine]

Your videos are an amazing watch. You definitely deserve way more views

[@recht181]

I'm thankful that we're getting actual innovations in mechanical keyboards like optical switches and Hall-Effect switches that allow for much more versatile inputs on keyboards. I don't have the money for a Hall effect keyboard right now because I'm also content with what I have - a Razer Huntsman v2 with non-analog optical switches in 60%.

[@fteoOpty64]

Agree that preference if King!. It comes to individual tastes that can be radically different. For me, a bit of thock but not too thocky!. No clacks or rattles for sure. The key feel needs to be firm. Not mooshy. The overall sound should not be loud. It should be muted thock. And my backspace key HAS to be clicky!. (Blue switch) This reminds me of my instances of error in typing.

[@thehypnotoad5184]

An ad that is actually informative and good content? Amazing!

[@grubbygeorge2117]

I'll be honest, I cannot really tell the modern mx-style linears apart. They're so similar to each other, so I can't bring myself to care about new switch releases anymore. And that's coming from someone who actually loves typing on light linears.

[@Nickrii]

You get my upvote, even though I don't agree with at least 50% of what you have said - especially in the first half. However, it seems like you are the very first one to even bring thoughts about this hobby to this level. Well done! If you wonder why I think your definition of technology is flawed, I recommend diving into the topic of imbrication. But beware, that hole is deep! ;)

[@mahoslash]

In my country, everyone has been raving about how good reds are and if you can't get reds, at least get browns for daily use otherwise you're a noob who don't know keyboards. Coming from a headphone hobbist, I lean a lot on the logic of "Gotta try them before I get them". And I have to say I absolutely hate red linears and browns while the most I can accept was silvers after I tried all the options that was available to me. By profession, I'm in charge of administrative work and involves a lot of typing work daily, and typing on reds and browns just made me question those who said linears and tactiles are good for office work really have any related experience or not. (At a point I was even questioning if the problem was on me prefering blues as they were in general lighter to the touch for me.) It wasn't until later that I read an article a mechanical engineer wrote about finger fatigue on different cherry switches that you're actually using twice the amount of effort to type on reds and browns compared to blues, so it wasn't my illusion that typing on blues felt easier on my fingertips even though the specs on paper say things differently. There are other factors at play that enthusiast did not see when giving out "veteran" advice, whether it was they were never in the profession in the first place that made them ignore reality or their contents have to push them to give advice that's goes with the market trend at the moment. I was blessed that the keyboard shop I went to didn't give me any additional advice and just let me type the whole way though their inventory to find the keyboard and switch that suits me instead of what suits the market trend. In the end, you really have to test out what suits the best for you instead of blindly following market trends.

[@YaroLord]

Interesting video, and thought provoking. After being in the hobby for quite some time (about 10 years), I think I can narrow down how switches are perceived in the hobby to 3 perspectives: - The beginner: they value sound above everything else, and are completely ignorant that switch choice barely contributes to keyboard sound. Beginners will see a typing test from a popular keebtuber and immediately assume that, if they buy the same switches, their keyboard will sound JUST like that. Considering this, I think it's fair to dismiss the beginner opinion, as it does not hold any validity and it's founded purely on lack of knowledge. Beginners literally don't know better, most likely because their first exposure to the hobby was on sound tests and they judge by ear. - The initiated: they value sound and feel equally. They want their keyboard to have a distinct sound signature, but they also pursue a specific typing feel. This is where most people in the hobby are, and it's where we find the most variety. They either prefer gasket mounted boards, or they go for low cost kits and mod the hell out of them. Either way, there is plenty of ignorance here as well, because the "initiated" tend to follow trends instead of having opinions of their own. They PE foam/tape mod their keyboard just because some guy in KZbin did it and changed the sound of their keyboard (not realizing that PE foam/tape make every keyboard sound identical), or they go for U4Ts and completely ignore every other switch in existence, just because some guy in reddit said they were "high end", "endgame" and a lot of people upvoted his comment. They think they know better than beginners but they're just as ignorant. They can parrot the scripts of several keebtubers regarding switch brands, long poles, spring types, etc, but it's all third hand experience. Pretty much the same as me going on a binge watch on cuisine channels and giving you a strongly worded opinion on what's the best steak cut when I've only ever tried rib-eye steak because that's what my butcher recommended. - The elitist: they say they value sound/feel but they actually only value the exclusivity factor in a switch. If it's rare/expensive, linear, and limited stock, it's good. BCPs, Mx Blacks, Nixies... you know the drill. They pursue a specific aesthetic on a keyboard that makes it "stand out", without realizing that essentially, they all want to build the same keyboard: any anodized color with CRP, XMI or 9009 keycaps. And of course it's gotta be clacky, because thock is for plebs. With that said, my opinion on this subject is that switch choice doesn't matter if you didn't spend a significant amount of money on your keyboard. You can go for linear, clicky or tactile. It doesn't matter. Whatever you like the most, THAT is the best choice. However, when you spend more money on a keyboard, I believe linear is the only way to go, because tactile/clicky take away the protagonism in the sound. You shouldn't spend 600 bucks (or more) on a keyboard to hear the switches clicking when you type (and if you did, you positively wasted a lot of money, because you could've gotten the same sound/experience from a cheaper keyboard kit). Add expensive keycaps to the equation (which are all made of ABS, which has a higher pitched sound than PBT), and you will understand why ALL - and I'm not making any exceptions, ALL high-end kits you find on KZbin will have a clacky sound signature. Long story short, I agree with you. Knowing that switch choice doesn't impact sound/typing experience that much, I often go for linears - because good linears are noticeable enough to slightly affect your sound signature, but unnoticeable enough to let your keycaps/plate/case shine first and foremost. I've already come to terms with the fact that Topre tactility is unbeatable and impossible to surpass by any MX switch, so I've given up on tactile MX switches. If you want the best tactile feel, forget about U4Ts, Holy Pandas, Polias... Topre blows them all out of the water.

[@TechBoiEski]

"No one pays premium for outdated technologies" Nobody show him the retro gaming hobby/community.

[@rustypaperplate9085]

someone I watched uses mouthfeel metaphors to communicate switch feel, and those were the most effective descriptors I have heard. they called certain switched bouncy like biting into a gummy and stuff like that.

[@milktoothnu]

That is very interesting. I think metaphorical descriptions of switches are the most useful as well.

[@Drunken_Hamster]

As long as a switch feels smooth and isn't distracting sounding or fatiguing on fingers, I can dig it. As far as whole keyboards go, I've only tried two types of switches from two manufacturers of keyboards; Reds from Havit and Reds and Blues from Royal Kludge. I found that I dislike the blues and really like the reds, especially fresh reds. I have an assorted switch tester (8 different switches, with a couple that have a pair) and based on limited testing with that, I don't think I'd like brown-style tactiles, either. I DO like click bar switches, but they're loud and distracting which goes against my above philosophy. So linears are certainly for me, but the specifics (aside from being 45-55 grams) probably don't matter that much, and the only other two things I know for sure that I'd like to try is a silenced click-bar switch and a topre switch since those are said to be smoothly tactile instead of scratchy like MX tactiles.

[@x72s]

Just asking if you happen to remember what are the names of these text fonts for instance in 9:53 and just in general the text font you use when editing. I'm just genuinely mesmerized by your style of editing. It is visually pleasing.

[@milktoothnu]

Adobe Caslon Pro

[@x72s]

@@milktoothnu Thank you bro!

[@jakatingkir6581]

this is so true. I was focusing in thocks and clacks past few years. and here I am, using a silent linear switch as most of my daily drivers since I'm using it in my office. and to be honest, silent switch are not bad at all

[@waxilllium548]

Very, very well done video. Perfect logic and accurate summary of the community. Love the content!

[@Alex-ch2ud]

Considering the relatively recent invention of Hall Effect Magnetic Switches, I'd say that keyboard switches are definitely technology, to an extent.

[@cheepee5563]

How do I pick switches? No long poles, no reduced travel, no hyper tactiles, no HDPE top, no JWK, no milky tops, no box stem, preferably nylon bottom, nylon top, or nylon blends in general The result? All three of my customs use cherry switches (blacks, browns and clears) despite owning gazzew, gaterons, akkos, JWK's and experimenting throughout the hobby. I found comfort in using these instead

[@silly_goofs]

honestly i wouldnt say this is a problem but keyboards are defiantly a lot less tech and more subjective preference based

[@reaper117nobody7]

tbh, the only thing that stops me trying more thru milktooth is the lack of shop integration.

[@zephyrangels1884]

I've watched so many of your videos back to back, great quality and I love your videos and recommendations!

[@wabbit234]

I'm becoming convinced that hearing lo-fi hiphop background music is a surefire indicator that the video I'm about to watch is going to be fart huffing, stupid bullshit. Redefining words is sophistry.

[@jonaskromwell4464]

Resting fingers should not trigger switches. This is my underlying criteria for switches. If they're too easy to trigger, sloppy typing is the result. The combination of tactility and sound provides the feedback I need to keep my typing as on target as possible.

[@edragon3046]

Love your vids keep it up

[@CaveyMoth]

Most of the popular mechanical keyswitches are identical to each other in terms of technology, with only iterative improvements (is it always an improvement?) in performance. However, there are a number of technological advancements being made in the world of mechanical keyboards. Contactless switches use lights or magnets instead of copper contacts, allowing for smoother key travel, as well as analog functionality and variable actuation distance. This technology isn't new, dating back many decades to when mechanical keyboards first became ubiquitous. However, its implementation into the Cherry MX keyswitch design is a new advancement. There are now even switches that can be changed between tactile, linear, and clicky. So you get every switch functionality in one switch!

[@markridlen4380]

Here's the problem as I see it. Obviously you can measure certain things like tactile force and make that into a graph. Some stuff is a lot harder to graph like sound profile. Mechanical keyboards are like guitars in that they are affected by resonance in the case. Now you could obviously take the switches by themselves and do tests to get a frequency graph over time (like a simple EQ visualizer). Assuming you could standardize measurement techniques, and record at close range with a high quality microphone, you might be able to get fairly useful tonal information. But then if you connect a keycap to it, the tone changes because the stem is closely connected to the cap and now it vibrates at a different frequency. And then compound this with the resonance of the case material and dampening material, you'll end up with different switches working better (providing the desired end result) in different circumstances. The other problem is that striking force plays a factor, and the mechanism has multiple sound generating events. For example it might sound perfectly quiet except when it bottoms out, or there might be a click, there are so many factors. A mechanical keyboard is like a nuanced instrument, with each factor playing a small role in the end result of feel and sound. So even if you could make some kind of objective measurement of the audio a switch produces, there would be huge limits to it's usefulness. That being said, it might still be useful to know the major frequencies a switch produces, but it is incomplete without knowing case resonance and keycap resonance.

[@myoape]

I agree on the need for better understanding of the subjectivity, however, there are some measures of quality that indicate a technological development for a lot of switches. Consistency of quality is one part I think could be stated more with switches. For instance, durock POM have flimsy pins, while akko switches although a lot cheaper, just seem to have a better build quality and a more consisteny typing feel. One way in which I think this could be represented better in reviewing switches, is through emphasis on the out of the box experience vs a modded expereince (filming, lubing). While I do agree that a lot of older switches still might have a subjective appeal, better consistency for a cheaper price seem to be the case with a lot of newer switches.

[@omegand.]

I am not even into the world of custom keyboards, but this was unexpectedly insightful

[@spoonybardtoma]

I believe that the best switches are a combination of the trendiest and the most expensive. That's why I use zeal clickiez with the click leaf removed to make them linear. Sure, it's probably pretty much the same as cap yellows, but you're paying a lot more for them, therefore they must be better. After all, we all know that clicky switches are bad, so using the click leaf is inherently wrong. Even if that's the specific feature that we're paying more for, we need to remove it in order to give the switch optimal performance. I think we can all agree on that!

[@milktoothnu]

Totally agreed ;)

[@rishirajsaikia1323]

Sarcasm ?

[@IrrationalDelusion]

Force graphs and actuation force should be minimum requirement for switch manufacturers to communicate! Many don't?! Noise level is also important. Thocky low pitch with a hint of marble linear SILENT low wobble, low actuation force switch is my dream. Technologically, Hall Effect switches are the step forward and simply superior to conventional switches since you customize and get advantage in gaming. It should be restricted how fast you can actuate keys in games. XD

[@albertko1]

More or newer technology doesn't necessarily mean better. In a hobby that's about the experience... There is still an element of production advancements reducing costs of manufacturing to allow certain consistency and overall quality. Right now there are great switches that are extremely inexpensive. They might actually be your "favorite" over a much more expensive switch. Is very similar to automotive enthusiasts favoring manual transmission vehicles or cars with great steering feel and handling... Some love big power and torque and big rumbling exhaust tone. Others love high strung screaming exhaust tones. These are purely preference that really doesn't have a direct correlation with the latest technology. I generally like to describe the sound profile of switches via typical sound descriptions like tone, pitch, and volume since it's sound being produced as the final product. The tactile feedback of a switch, even if it is a linear is totally subjective. I LOVE me some dual or triple coil extended spring return. Others really like a progressive spring. This isn't even talking about actual tactile switches with varying "bump" thresholds.

[@milktoothnu]

Would've never thought of the corollaries to the automotive enthusiasts: that was really interesting to read, thank you

[@tikoytuks1479]

That opening title screen at 0:08...instant like🤙

[@a.Trickster]

i disagree in the sense that just because something is old technology it doesnt mean it stops being technology, something as simple as a lever is technology, a wheel is technology, what you mean is that the taste of people are not guided by technological innovation, and in that i agree

[@dovy6666]

great vids good aesthetic good content. you desrve more my guy, subs earned

[@zyphorx3604]

Great Video! What's the name of the brown keycap set in the beginning?

[@Termulus]

Honestly I probably should've looked into even more typing tests compared to what I looked at but I'm currently happy with the ws morandi switches, so I guess I partially figured out what I like out of sheer dumb luck?

[@ChiefBrianIrons]

Great video totally agree just buy what you like. I personally never liked linear switches, i love tactile switches as i want that feedback or haptic bump in the response. Also love heary switches as i like the work out my fingers get its only exercise I get 😂

[@wagonet]

VERY good video. Well edited and a lot of thought went into this. 🎉

[@saladknight3796]

master yapper lol

[@capberganza]

man your content is awesome, thanks

[@gamingsoups]

ah shit i just watched an ad, great stuff guys

[@Sovek86]

Yeah, I get the message, and that was my goal when building mine. I bought a cheap chinese keyboard that had hotswop, it had a cool clear case, bright RBG, 75% layout and I just had to get used to using FN+ for other funtions that my 100% Patriot had. I bought it with the intention of keeping the case and PCB but swapping out what I wanted. New keycaps (pudding) that wernt very expensive but looked good and were double shot PBT, and then swapping the switches for a different switch than what just about anyone uses, Kailh Box Navy Blues. This was because the stock Gateron Blues were clickly which I liked but didnt have enough force. The click also could have been better. Yes.... this keyboard is loud but as its me I don't care. Now if I were to take this on the road with a roomate in a hotel room I'd likely swap or build a new board with heavier tactile switch

[@Rayu25Demon]

1:50 6:13 where did you get these arabic key caps??

[@milktoothnu]

21kb

[@zekedgtl]

Great vid man! I enjoyed it

[@milktoothnu]

Thanks man! Glad to see you pop in, love your channel

[@nerdalert545]

Dude, what are you talking about?

[@SimGunther]

Hall effect switches You'll thank me later...

[@joeyscars4947]

Watch for the cat in the factory scene.

[@isaachy777]

Dang, this channel deserves more subs

[@lebeda1570]

yo what is that phone in the start of a video?

[@milktoothnu]

ZTE Nubia Z50 Ultra

[@lebeda1570]

@@milktoothnu shit's fier

[@SatchmoBronson]

Dang, wish I'd seen this video before I bought Drop Holy Panda Clears. WAY too tactile for me lol. I definitely fell for the hype, but I went right back to a more normal tactile switch (Kailh Pro Purples) once I decided the tactility and sound (ew!) of the Pandas were not for me.

[@Kahlimer0]

First rule of the apple club: we don't talk about apple.

[@y11971alex]

Mostly agreed with this video. But the beamspring switch from 1971 for me is the apogee for keyboard switches. Nothing whatsoever after it has been superior to it in terms of feel.

[@3mar00ss6]

why he look Japanese but has Arabic letters on his switches is this japan's version of quirky westerners having Japanese on their keyboard 💀

[@eroplaneeee]

I prefer both! pls keep doing what you are doing 🙇

[@yukidaruma3177]

nicely explained dude.. gonna except more great videos from you in the future

[@eruno_]

That's wild definition of "technology" that I don't really agree with. Switches are examples of reliable mechanical technology that improves over time, of course switch innovations/improvements come along slowly and are sometimes underappreciated, but the progress still happens. For example Gateron Low-profile 2.0 Switches are objectively better than the previous iteration.

[@MangoTangoFox]

I disagree, manufacturing techniques and discoveries around what people like in terms of materials and tactile bumps and such, will still reduce pricing over time. There are 25 cent switches now that rival ones that cost over .70 a couple years ago. There's now polished rails and legs. I've seen a new leaf design that's much smaller and reduces ping without lube. Long poles are relatively a new invention. Companies are putting port holes in various places to increase or mute the sound. Silent/dampened switches are getter better with nicer, even removable dampeners in the stem, or alternate designs with the dampening in the housing instead of the stem, or single-material designs with flexy legs directly in the mold of the stem. I also think there is huge space in the market for linear switches where the actuation point IS the bottom-out point at 3-4mm, essentially making them a hybrid of tactile and linear where the travel is smooth but the actuation can be felt and known based on touching the bottom or not. The point is, while I agree that many many switches are overhype and insanely overpriced, where what they offer can be replicated for far less, that in itself demonstrates that there is room to grow and innovate. In 5-10 years, I'd bet you we'll have switches that have optimized and surpassed almost everything we have today, stock from the factory, for as cheap as what we consider entry/budget today at 20-25c a switch. Even without innovation in the actual switch designs, I'd bet simply the industries of scale effect, with the rapidly growing popularity of mechs alongside the same growth of PC gaming, we'll still see far lower costs and shipping times and greater availability and all of that.

[@x72s]

Honey wake up! Milk posted a new video.

[@PhantmZero]

the video is well made and informative but i feel like a lot of it doesn't make sense. the material scarcity doesn't only effect switches, it also effects phones and microchips and any other type of technology, so the same applies to them as well. also, the older the technology the more expensive it is. some of the very first models of apples computers go for far more money than their most recently released ones, so that also doesn't make sense. and vintage cherry switches are NOT smooth because they are better switches, they are -sometimes- smoother because they've been broken in through use over the years. NOS are not better or worse than any of the current cherry switches (which is sad in its own way). and switches have become a LOT better over time and cherry are objectively bad compared to almost any of the new switches. scratchy, wobbly and pingy, so there have been major improvements and there still are (like TTC neptune's take on interference, or cream clickies, etc). and there is also no polarization where it's "only" linears or "only" tactiles in the hobby. there have always been both at the same time. and you CAN judge switches objectively. scratch, stem wobble, housing wobble, leaf ping, spring ping, stick slip, those are all objectively bad things that can make a switch bad.

[@milktoothnu]

This is a great comment; I'll quickly respond to a few points: 1. Re: old technology. Yes, the first models of Apple's computers fetch crazy amounts. To me, that is more of a function of Apple's brand cachet in 2023 rather than it being a 40 year old computer. My feeling is that that is the exception to the norm; a Compaq will not fetch those premiums. 2. I agree with you in that linears and tactile switches (and clickies) have always had their loyal audiences. This doesn't detract from the fact that there have been bubbles around certain switches, such as the Holy Pandas, and if that manic, herd-like behavior is real, it should be avoided. 3. Fully agreed that you can judge switches objectively. I will only leave you with this data point: recently, there has been a resurgence in the popularity of Cherry switches in the high-end enthusiast community despite their scratchiness and other flaws. Are those hobbyists objectively wrong to use them? Or is there something else going on? When objectivity and subjectivity are at odds with each other, what do we do?

[@RLkeebs]

Really interesting perspective, awesome video! Will definitely rethink how I can better communicate the sound and feel of a switch. I will say, while new switches definitely aren't "better" in the objective sense, there is definitely a certain thrill with trying out the latest "innovation" in switches, even if they don't change the function of the keyboard itself. I personally feel that switches are the heart and soul of a keyboard, and I think that wanting to try out new and upcoming switches is in a sense a desire to experience something new in the hobby. (also as a former sneakerhead, I can definitely relate to the analogy 😂)

[@milktoothnu]

Hey there, Glad to see you pop in! Subbed to your channel after I saw your Nixies vid a while back. Looking forward to that video about you using switches stock. And yes, definitely some thrill with regards being at the cutting edge of something in all hobbies! It does feel as if with switch purchases, though, that we're buying expensive lottery tickets. Generally, when shopping online, you can look at product pictures and feel confident with your purchase decision. This only pertains to visual goods (e.g. clothes, keycaps) though. Uniquely, switches do not appeal to our senses of sight, but rather sound and feel. The latter in particular is incredibly difficult to communicate effectively on the web (enough has been said about why sound tests are 'lies' so I won't belabor the point here). Without really knowing what you're getting, buying switches ends up feeling like placing a bet. So, there's a lot to improve with regards to discovering/researching/buying switches online. As you've mentioned, switches are pretty much the heart and soul of the keyboard. Despite that centrality it's also the part of the keyboard build that is always the most confusing. With Milktooth-both with the try-before-you-buy program for switches and the KZbin channel-the goal is to try remove some of that uncertainty from the switch research process.

[@RLkeebs]

@@milktoothnu Thank you very much for that, and that's a very good point! I suppose as someone who hasn't been in the hobby for a SUPER long time, I feel that spending a bunch of money on switches that you don't even like is for sure a bummer, but one positive is that it also really helps you to shape your preferences and get a better idea of what you enjoy, though programs like yours will definitely help take the financial sting out of it. Also, that vid about using my switches stock should HOPEFULLY be coming out in 2 weeks, just been super busy with my final year of college 😭

[@alpenjon]

Sorry man but you define technology in a really weird and uncommon way. Also you cherry pick thevintage blacks to make your piint, when indeed people are more exited by everything new and original that was made one Cherry's patent expired.

[@milktoothnu]

I generally agree, but it would be equally cherry picking to say that everyone's enthused by the new. Intrigue with both the classics and the novel are very real in the community. The "case study" around vint blacks shows how newness should not be the only lens with which we grade switches.

[@hanif72muhammad]

I want to a switch for my every moods... yeah a lot of em

[@zachary_gongaga]

today i learned that apparently buttons arent technology because their quality is subjective?

[@falsechord]

engineering revolves around efficiency. efficiency means getting more output for the least amount of resources/work/time/money. membrane keyboards are the most efficient but they feel horrible

[@nikonmikon8915]

This isn't true, the latency of the switch matters, also it's like gateron lekker's don't exist at all to you?

[@cinnamonboy3893]

To me switches don't matter as much as the keyboard material/plate. I have some high end boards that no matter what linear switch i try it kind of all sound's the same.

[@jlee9360]

This is kinda true but wooting exists.

[@mimp8365]

I understand your point but to get there you presented misinformation as fact, redefined and blatantly misused words, failed to do research on the subject and therefore lacked substantial knowledge. Switches are by definition technology. In recent times “tech” is often associated with electronics which is not what technology actually means. There are different types of switches (often referred to as membrane, mechanical, optical and magnetic) all with objective strengths and weaknesses over one another. If someone does not care about the objective strengths and weaknesses of a switch then all that remains is their subjective qualities. There is no best in anything subjective. Something popular, trendy or hyped can have qualities which makes it objectively better but not subjectively. Lastly, the subjective aspects of a switch are highly influenced by other factors such as the stabilizers, keycaps and the material of the switch plate, case, dampening and more. Only the feel can be tested on a test set of switches like that. I hope you understand that this is constructive criticism rather than hate and can improve on this in the future. Either way, your video is objectively of very high quality! ;)

[@tmbrwn]

I kinda agree, but this comment does the same thing. Neither "technology" nor "objective" mean what y'all think it does.

[@mimp8365]

@@tmbrwn did I misuse “objective(ly)” and “technology”?

[@StripedJacket]

Hard disagree on the idea of “no one pays premiums for outdated technology”. People will pay premiums for anything they deem worth it to them. Just cause they’re old & scarce doesn’t mean they’re no longer tech, it just becomes old & scarce tech. I don’t agree with the defining of technology that you’ve laid out To me it’s all a subjective experience of feel & sound when it comes to switches. The words used to describe in the community are easily understood imo Where I believe a problem exists is the key caps. No way they should be priced as high as they are. To go into the basic membrane kb’s feel terrible to use for me. Mech kb’s (especially if self built) allow you customize your experience (unrelated to switches) and are much better than membrane in almost all aspects. Edit: The video feels like an argument for an ad [understood it at the end] but honestly felt like you made a really high quality video but your argument had little substance to me. Even though I 100% agree with being able to test the feeling of different switches before buying, which could save someone the heart break when it’s not what they expected. I think you’ve got a great idea making a testing station that allows the return of switches to help people find what they’re into.

[@milktoothnu]

I agree in the sense that anyone will pay premiums for anything that is worth it to them. But to make technology preference-based makes the very definition of technology, and particularly of technological progress, spurious. Keycaps are an interesting phenomenon. It's certainly a more polarizing topic.

[@StripedJacket]

We have different takes on what Technology means. I’ll give you the Britannica definition: “the application of scientific knowledge to the practical aims of human life or, as it is sometimes phrased, to the change and manipulation of the human environment.” Technology is very wide and a lot of technology is just their to enhance our lives in way *we like*. We being different for every person UI elements on a screen are technological implementation, if I enjoyed TikTok’s UI I’d be using it rn but here I am on KZbin. The lights in my room are a warmer LED light vs my friends blast of RGB, both tech that was decided through preference. It can evolve, it can stagnate, it can be replaced and people would go after the one they enjoy more.

[@milktoothnu]

@@StripedJacket Yes, my definition of technology is certainly more limited than Britannica's. My view is that if you can somehow construe everything as technology, it simultaneously makes nothing technology. That said, your LED vs RGB example is certainly very interesting. It shows that when it comes to lighting, newer does not equal better and subjectivity rules supreme. But I think it is this very divergence between you and your friends' taste that in certain fields such as lighting, the technology itself does not matter that much. RGB lighting may be better in all these quantitative ways but you might still prefer the glow of something outdated. I think in concept, we're actually in agreement. It is just that I don't prefer to contextualize what's old in terms of technology in any longer.

[@xPikachu3]

4:05 Did anyone see that cat :0