The Problem With "Lolita" Adaptations

[@ishathakor]

the problem with lolita adaptations is that its literally a perfect book to get turned into a horror movie and no one is turning it into a horror movie.

[@goosewithagibus]

The real problem is that unreliable narrators tend not to work on screen very well at all. Thus ruining the whole point of the story being a challenge to the reader to see through Humbert's lies. Film audiences automatically assume the camera doesn't lie, for good reason, too. It just doesn't work and should never be adapted again.

[@rorycharlesworthington]

no, for real - i came down here to make a comment about how interesting it'd be to have a blatant psychological horror adaption from Delores' pov

[@Catglittercrafts]

@@goosewithagibus I love, unreliable narrative, psychological horrors. What are you talking about?

[@Cthulhubot]

​@@goosewithagibusAs a survivor and filmmaker myself (so I have some skin in the game here), I totally disagree! Unreliable narrators are very common in film. They're just tricky to pull off in a way that's narratively satisfying, ethically framed, and communicated clearly to the audience. But that's true across mediums, even with the novel; many readers were swayed by Humbert's lies and came away from Lolita having totally misinterpreted the text. The presumed objectivity of the camera is definitely a complicating factor, but there are well established techniques for working around this now. Having narration that contradicts the events playing out in front of the audience, or revealing discrepancies between ways different characters perceive events (i.e. the Rashomon effect) are both common tactics that would lend themselves well to adapting Lolita, I think. The main hurdles to a successful adaptation are society's broad struggle to interpret narratives about abuse, and the warped cultural imprint Lolita has built up over the years in such a landscape. We know that people are primed to trust superficially charming and intelligent abusers like Humbert over the vulnerable people they target. We've seen the damage caused to the lives of young actresses by stepping into the role of Lolita (which I say because Dolores hasn't really been represented on screen). Even the very source text has been deliberately taken out of context and weaponized as a grooming tool by predators. So how does one go about confronting audiences' preconceived notions about "the greatest love story of our time" and the girl at its center without doing more harm than good? I don't have the answers, but personally, I'd love to see this story adapted well. Hell, I'd work on it myself in a heartbeat if given the opportunity! It would just require far more care and respect than men like Kubrick and Lyne could bother to muster.

[@Topdoggie7]

​@@CthulhubotA movie I have watched over fifty times perfectly does unreliable narrator and horror excellently. It's called Frailty.

[@whitneym.9358]

Don't know how someone can read the line "she had nowhere else to go" or the part about Dolores crying herself to sleep every night and not be able to parse out who is the abuser and who is the victim in the situation here...

[@ninjadolphin01]

I don't know how someone reads any of it and not gets it.

[@whitneym.9358]

@@ninjadolphin01 True. The entire premise of the story is Grown Man Abuses Child. But those bits just stood out to me as especially telling. Like, even if Dolores really had been a "willing" participant in all of it, she would still be a victim (hell, even if she was actually trying to "manipulate" or "seduce" him she is still a child while he's an adult and the onus to not respond would be on him) but it's clear from these details that isn't the case and she does not want to be doing any of it.

[@ninjadolphin01]

@@whitneym.9358 oh yeah there's definitely a few lines really stood out to me about how horrifying it was. Honestly though I'm not sure there's many paragraphs that go by without something absolutely vile. Personally one that really stuck out to me was. Actually I forget the line now it was one of several about like how much he just holds her in open contempt in every regard except his desire to sexually exploit her.

[@ninjadolphin01]

@@whitneym.9358 I've always been iffy on how much of what Humbert portrays actually happened, I usually take a maximalist view where I think most of what he says happened his perspective on it is just warped. That is partly rhetorical tho. Like I think even if everything he says it's truly still depraved. Like you were saying even if Delores did try to seduce him, it's his fault for going along with it.

[@JeantheSecond]

We have a really messed up society.

[@hellogoditsmesara3569]

*THE MOST* charitable interpretation of Dolores being “receptive” to *any* advances was the fact that she was *t w e l v e* and *g r o o m e d*

[@AlexisHiemis]

Not to mention she was probably trying to get along with her stepdad and didn't have the capacity as a literal child to interpret his 'niceness' as weird and even if she felt uncomfortable, she was probably not trying to make things even more awkward and hostile with her mother, who was already considering her to be bad. It might even be that Dolores mentioned to her mother that Humbert was behaving weird, and she put it off as Dolores being annoying or sabotaging her relationship to Humbert out of pettyness.

[@katie5998]

A lot of kids when put into situations like this will often adopt a form of survival instinct called "fawn", which they will comply and try to please their abuser as not to be hurt. Sexual abuse is a very, very complex situation for any child and there are many cases where they will feel deeply confused about what's happening for a verity of reasons. Them seeking out that abuse, or seemingly appearing "okay" or "consenting" to that abuse isn't them actually being so (like you said, they are a child and what's happening is sickening), but because of the biological, physical, and mental toll taken on them (perhaps even outside the sexual abuse, like them having bad relationships with their parents/no trustworthy authority figure) it can create situations like that. This creates a lot of shame later on, perhaps even a repetition of that abuse either with their abuser or with others who abuse them, and an inability to feel safe enough ever telling anyone about it until *much* later on. Overall, if Delores did appear "receptive" this isn't a sign she was consenting to what was happening, it just shows how vulnerable and helpless she was--her inability to be able to get help from those around her. It's a sad, sad situation and certainly not something that should be romanticized or viewed in a way that negates the terrible impact the abuse had on her, nor does it absolve Humbert of *any* of what he was doing--as the movies seem to somewhat suggest. Delores was not a "seductress" she was groomed into a situation she didn't understand and conditioned to believe that it was normal--even when she knew on some level it was wrong and it made her feel bad. She wasn't given options, nor the education to be able to escape such a situation. So she did the only thing she could do and complied--which isn't something that should be shamed or mistaken for consent. She just wanted to survive.

[@AlexisHiemis]

@@katie5998 Yeah, later on when the abuse got more severe that was probably the case but I'm mostly talking about the early stages where he was touching her and watching her whilest her mother was still alive and they were living in the same house. After Humbert kidnapped her and drove her around it probably got to what you described. I'm not suggesting that she consented to any of this, only that in the early stages she probably didn't even really realize what was going on, just that Humbert was weird and uncomfortable but she tried to not escalate the conflict and still be nice to him.

[@katie5998]

@@AlexisHiemis Oh yes, for sure, I apologize if it felt like I was replying directly to criticize you, this was not the case. I was only elaborating on the OG comment, I didn't think you were at all suggesting it was consensual :)

[@rockmangurlx4973]

Brainwashing can fuck up the brain in ways many couldn’t imagine.

[@Topboxicle]

Nabokov literality had the child abusing monster look directly into the reader's eyes and profess the most vile incarnations of his soul, and somehow people still are unable to tell he's the bad guy, like I can't get over the fact the book opens with the shrink being like 'this dude is so fucked we'll be studying him for decades' and both directors were like 'this is the prefect love story lmao

[@metalsludge8205]

biggest self-report by hollywood directors IMO

[@jordanjoestar-turniptruck]

"The white coats didn't UNDERSTAND the torment he was going through!! 😢😢" I swear, Nobokov had too much faith in humanity

[@metaforth]

This is because a lot of Western culture romanticizes the very idea of feminine youth to the extent that pedophilia among a disproportionate amount of the population is inevitable

[@cericat]

To his credit he covered it better than many other writers that've touched the subject, to the point there's still people that assume he must have been a predator himself because they can't imagine being able to write such without experience. *sighs*

[@seacatlol831]

Maybe Oingo Boingo was onto something.

[@a.p907]

If I adapted Lolita I would do two things 1) make it animated. 2) Have Humbert narrate the entire movie through his diary entries, but have all interactions with Dolores be framed from her perspective so the viewer can see just HOW disconnected from reality Humbert is and just HOW sick his desires are.

[@skookiecat_29]

Once I learn how to animate I’ll help you, I’m already studying cinematography. I’ll get back to you in 3 to 5 years and we’ll make a good Lolita adaptation lol.

[@themadhoffer5802]

I also think it would be interesting to see his narrative conflict with what’s shown on screen, either to show that he’s not to be trusted, or to make the viewer question reality.

[@le563]

I really like this idea but not animated, it's really hard to market an animated film without kids wanting to watch it, I'd go stop motion like Caroline

[@lalalalalalal4]

​@@skookiecat_29I'm currently studying animation so sign me in! I literally had the same idea while listening to this video

[@lalalalalalal4]

​@@le563it really depends of the type of animation. Also it would still be Lolita even if is animated and Lolita is part of pop culture for better or for worse, so people would know it's not for kids. There are a long list of animated western movies that aren't for kids and talk about rlly serious topics

[@Flowertot]

I think it’s amazing how Dolores is the ‘imperfect victim’ because victims rarely are ‘perfect’.

[@demetriam2408]

Especially when people say that she consented, the whole issue with pedophilia is that children CANNOT CONSENT.

[@Flowertot]

@@demetriam2408 YEAH like if you say she consented you’re literally siding with the nonce in the book man, just because the infamously unreliable narrator says something, doesn’t mean you believe it uuuugh

[@Flowertot]

@@demetriam2408 I do think it shows how society’s view of pedophiles is like a scary stranger in a dark alley rather than an family member or close friend of your parents that slowly grooms a child. The fact that Humbert is not the boogie man breaks a lot of societal stereotypes and I LOVE Nabokov for doing that ESPECIALLY in his time

[@Leo-gq1yi]

i like one of my favorite characters specifically because of this. he is not the kind of victim that most would imagine, so his genuine trauma is dismissed by the main character and he is framed as the perpetrator (he was twelve).

[@rockmangurlx4973]

It’s all due to psychological scarring and the twisted way in how the mind develops differently because of that trauma.

[@annenonimus6709]

Hello! I just wanna mention...When Humbert mentions Dante falling in love with little Beatrice, he intentionally skips a very important piece of info (as he often does) to make himself look better: Beatrice was eight, yes, but Dante? Well, Dante was nine

[@merri-toddwebster2473]

Also, courtly love conventions assumed that the woman was, not necessarily older, but of higher social status than her lover, as well as married to someone else.

[@atimidbirb]

Oh thank christ . That is a relief x,D

[@craigstephenson7676]

@@atimidbirbit was still pretty weird, he obsessed over his childhood crush for his entire life

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

​@craigstephenson7676 It's not all that unusual really, the "one that got away" is a common regret many people have in their lives, seems Dante was one such person

[@josettelachaussette]

I remember this line VIVIDELY because I knew Dante was a kid but he made me doubt myself so much I had to google it. That was the start of the book and I knew then he was taking me for an idiot. It s hard to see his rambling as anything other than manipulation after that.

[@WithLovefromNana]

It's poetic and sad that her name is Dolores, it means pains in Spanish. Its almost like by calling her Lolita he erases her personhood and her pain in their interactions. He's hiding her pain within his sick fantasy.

[@cericat]

IRL it's part of how abusers can attack the victim, by renaming them they're erasing their prior identity and exerting control over them.

[@Laeiryn]

I'm pretty sure it was Nabokov's way of honoring Swinburne and his endless poems to Dolores, our Lady of Pain

[@initiatinreallife]

It's also a reference to the mater dolorosa, so the pain of Mother Mary when her son is crucified. And at the end, when her tormenter visits her, he describes her as looking crucified while she lets him past her.

[@MinisDunyasi5]

Humbert also says “Lo.Lee.Ta”. Humbert tears Dolores’ whole essence to shreds. He rips her apart and dehumanises her.

[@jazwhoaskedforthis]

It never ceases to horrify me that people blame children for their own grooming and abuse. Kids GET to have little crushes. They GET to not understand boundaries yet. They're curious, they're literally new to the world, they don't know yet what they're feeling or getting into. It's up to adults not to take advantage of those little crushes. It doesn't matter if kids "initiate" as it's usually little hugs or kisses or words. Adults tend to lead them further by initiating contact the kids don't understand and escalating it to places the kids never knew about. The most damning thing to me is, even if an insane person wants to argue kids can consent (they can't), all the psychological damage and pain if not physical harm that comes from that contact with a groomer or predator. That adult predator manipulates or forces the kids into scenarios they don't understand yet or can't get away from, before they understand that in a lot of societies people will judge them for being sexually active at a young age or before marriage. The adults take that choice to wait away from kids who never got to make the decision for themselves. They are made to feel complicit in their own damage as a way to protect the predator. Most kids i knew who grew up abused ended up addicts, with eating disorders, mental illness, and suicide attempts. They have found abusive partners after. It pretty much ALWAYS causes long term harm and lasting damage, if it doesn't make them kill themselves. If an adult "loved" a person who was a child, they could NEVER honestly act on it because love cares if you hurt that person. If it was love you'd care if it made them feel dirty or unlovable or suicidal later. There is never a ~ who is the real victim though ~ thing, that's a fckn fantasy predators engage in to try to blunt any shame or blame for their involvement with children or minors. It's the CNC fantasy of "oh but they actually like it and it's fine really", which is ONLY a fantasy. It's insane how society sort of pushed the Lolita image and convinced so many of us young girls that getting involved with older men made us cool, edgy, deep, mature, interesting, rebellious, good actually, not like other girls etc. Our youth is marketed to us as our most desirable trait, even plain young people are made to feel desired by old creeps. Our youth is something we are told is our value, and when women e especially age we are told we're "no good anymore" basically.

[@akizaizinskii]

A lot of people justify Humbert because there are a LOT of people like him. They’re very good at hiding and you’d think that people like that are rare (even in the film Humbert says he feels like the only one), but when you actually see how our culture is obsessed with the sexuality of young girls and the absolutely gigantic views and following children get on social media (with like half the comments being weird to say the least) you get a sense that this is a pretty common occurrence. Pedos are everywhere.

[@m0nsterh1gh_bbg60]

EXACTLY. A child can have a crush on an adult, but an adult should be able to resist a TWELVE YEAR OLD’S “seduction”

[@elaine_a]

this basically happened to me man. I had a crush on a family friend and was fully willing to keep it to myself. but he initiated and was the only adult in my life that gave me emotional validation, it didn't help that I was an undiagnosed autistic 15 year old who never picked up on any red flags. my mom noticed the patterns but put the responsibility on me to distance myself from him "for optics" because another woman wanted to be with him. whenever he showed more interest in me than the other woman, her friends would gossip about me. they'd tattle to my mom out of "concern" when really that woman saw me as competition. one time something I said was completely misinterpreted and I was publicly humiliated by my mom. I was told "I knew what I was doing" and was "being sneaky". all of this just made me want to be with him more because everyone else was treating me like shit. eventually he broke my heart and my brain too probably. I had no one to go to in fear of the "I told you so's". but years later talking to my mom about it, she said she didn't get rid of him and was hard on me because I "wanted it" and that's why she's justified. I was failed by every single adult around me and I can never talk about it to anyone again because this shit is the only way they see it. I was told I'd understand when I'm an adult but its a decade later I'm 25 and I still don't fucking get it.

[@m0nsterh1gh_bbg60]

@@elaine_a i’m so sorry you went through that.

[@cookicrumbl]

@@elaine_a sounds like you grew up in a misogynistic culture where the men are never at fault and the women are all vixens competing with each other said men. im sorry the should-be reasonable adults in your life failed you.

[@Dark_Boba-chan]

I love that the author starts the book with essentially "this is written from the pov of a crazy man. Don't take any of this seriously. He's a ¶3do, not a good person... Also everyone involved died.... Don't try any of this at home "

[@j100j]

It's like how people read a sci-fi dystopia novel and say that is a great idea but instaed of with some sci-fi things it is with sexual abuse. Edit: (Referring to the people who made the first movie adaptation.)

[@ovencore2549]

@@j100j vaush moment

[@blastermaster5039]

Sounds like Biden

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

Sadly Nabokov was weird with what the story was about. He said that he didn't see a moral in the story of Humbert like the psychiatrist did

[@ajasilikonreffkmimmon]

​@@ChangedMyNameFinally69Either he sees moral differently or the story he wrote leaves no moral at all.

[@g00dpaws]

I think the best way to adapt Lolita is to not adapt it. The only way to properly portray the horror of her situation is to tell it from her perspective. Make it a horror. Maybe even just call it Dolores, because her name deserves to be known more than Lolita's.

[@Chubbasaurus]

100% agree.

[@TiffyVella1]

I really do want to see the movie "Dolores" made now. By someone who is able to tell the story from the child's side without turning it into tragi-porn.

[@AlexisHiemis]

I'm not sure that would work in the wrong hands as well. If you have seen or read any 'retelling' of childhood sexual abuse victims stories, many of them are maximized for horror so heavily it ends up being exploitative. Suffering of all kinds runs this risk. By the way I know that because in an attempt to make sense of my own childhood abuse I looked into books promising to show 'real stories' and I ended up feeling sick from it not because of the topic, but because the narrative was way more interested in showing scenes of violence instead of engaging with the inner feelings of abuse victims.

[@sataniccat-girlwithagun3300]

Actually a very smart idea

[@mckenzie.latham91]

Lolita is integral for that though since that is the name that Humbert calls and refers to her as What makes the horror and tragedy is that Humbert does not see Dolores as a person but a "thing" that represents all his desires and fantasies He denies her agency by referring to her as Lolita, his golden calf/idol I think the name is integral to the whole trajedy and shows exactly the issue with Humbert beyond just grooming.

[@Flowertot]

I remember reading the ‘she had nowhere else to go line’ and feeling physically sick. Its such a clever and well written novel

[@j100j]

Watching the first part of this video feels sickening because of how much of a monster the guy is but watching the rest of it makes you feel sick because of how horrible the people making the movie were.

[@Flowertot]

@@j100j so agreed

[@valemilillo]

Danny Devito would be absolutely perfect as Lolita

[@SpoopySquid]

That version would end very differently. "So anyway, I started blasting."

[@jamdoe6486]

This knocked my socks off among the other comments

[@HitsugiHime]

I would watch that in a heartbeat

[@loraphelps936]

"Danny DeVito, I love your work!"

[@jeremyhall2727]

Was she the red head one or the blonde

[@BleedingGrafitti]

For those who think Humbert truly "loved" Dolores; he literally describes how disgusted he gets when noticing the girl's developing features after she hits puberty. Because of this, he forces himself to imagine her old prepubescent self in order to stay attracted to her. This veil of imagination however becomes thinner and thinner throughout the story until he can no longer ignore how much she's changed/grown up. After finding her years later, his sickness makes him imagine her as a little girl one last time (because she apparently had enough 'nymphet' features left to help him picture things better) and that's when he begs her to run off with him. Though readers who paid attention realize that he'd have no problem abandoning her like he did with his other younger mistresses. His flowery vocabulary is meant to charm the reader into believing his horrific lies. He never cared about Dolores the Human Being, he cared about Lolita the imaginary stage character created in his mind. And the most terrifying thing about many publications is how they slap the quote of, "The most convincing love story of the century" on the front.

[@hancake420]

Well said

[@curetapwater5604]

I don't trust anyone looking at this grown adult and twelve-year-old and labeling his abuse of her as a "love story."

[@spacecat8511]

Or an adult who views it as a “love story” and ages up Dolores to 14 somehow makes it less creepy.

[@tamsel814]

It's a great way of identifying those who would not be left alone with children/teenagers.

[@nursemain3174]

Not to mention the implication of Humbert killing her mum himself to have agency over Dolores. Edit Nabokov also was abused as a child by a older man which lead him to write this book. Also I’m new here but this video is amazing and this is one of my favourite books of all time and I hate how wildly misunderstood this book is

[@ZekeBittersweet]

I didn't know that about Vladimir Nabokov. I've heard a lot of opinions about Lolita, and the picture that I had in my head was of a creepy author writing a taboo story. It's reassuring but crushing to know he was writing from personal experience.

[@AleTitan]

​@@ZekeBittersweethe was abused by his uncle. There used to he a documentary about Lolita on KZbin split into parts (it was taken down) and it even showed a picture where his uncle was pulling him close for a photo and Nabokov visibly uncomfortable.

[@ZekeBittersweet]

@@AleTitan That's awful. I wish the true meaning of his story was more widely understood and respected for what it is.

[@nursemain3174]

@@deanjustdean7818 yes which one of my other favourite books has similar themes to the virgin suicides but that’s more focused on the male gaze

[@rickwrites2612]

Humbert does NOT kill the mom. He wants to and fantasizes about it. She finds out he only married her to molest her child and she runs screaming into the street where she gets hit by a car. It's the most deus ex machina there is; the author Nabakov simply needed the mom removed to get to the plot point where Humbert controls Dolores as her legal guardian. Yes its convenient, but the protagonist doesnt lie to us about facts and admits to killing quilty, havi g sex with children, etc. It is convenient because its written before we punished authors for doing stuff like that to move the plot fwd. Humbert does not kill Charlotte; Nabakov does.

[@damienwit]

I have no clue how people can read this book and think Dolores was not the victim. She was being driven all over America, living in motels and never staying in one place long enough to reach out to someone or make enough money to escape. She was 12. Adaptations do not work for this book, at least not from Humbert's perspective. He is such an unreliable narrator that even now we don't know what's fabricated and what's not. If anyone were to make a decent adaption of this film, it would have to be from Dolores' perspective.

[@zapazap]

She was *a* victim. I don't think I would use the definite article. Cheers!

[@alim.9801]

​@@zapazap are you implying Humbert is also somehow a victim? Because if so, I'm very much wondering why

[@zapazap]

@@alim.9801 No, though I'm not sure that he wasn't. Cheers!

[@KookiesNolly]

i think the prevalence of that narrative, accompanied with a lot of the popular tags on porn sites tells us the uncomfortable truth. Far more men than we'd like to admit have pedophile tendencies and are merely, barely restraining themselves because they're not sure they could get away with it. I'm dead serious on this, only a pedophile could read that book and not think the narrator is WHAT HE TELLS YOU HE IS.

[@genera1013]

​@@deanjustdean7818And they can't leave out the horrible details. The attempted drugging, her sobbing every night(not just saying it but actually showing it), paying her for acts, taking that money, etc

[@plentyoflulu4694]

People always look at me strange when i said Lolita is my favorite book, before adding, "i read it when i had the same age as the victim, it is the scariest horror book i ever read"

[@zapazap]

People can be assholes.

[@rickwrites2612]

I read it while I was 14 and traveling the country with a lover/abuser twice my age. I chose that over my family/home life; it was the best choice I could make. I identified w Dolores alot. Even though as an adult i cant even imagine being attracted to an 18 yr old nevermind a 14 yo and realize how creepy it is now that I'm a full adult; I still struggle to think of the man I was with as an abuser because I found it so much more empowering than my other options.

[@Saphia_]

That's why I never tell people I want to read Lolita. The reason I want to read Lolita is because I feel like it's such a perfect study of adding an unreliable narrator and a beautiful prose to a messed up story but still managing to not romanticize the abuse and to show glimpses of what is actually happening.

[@Pollicina_db]

@@rickwrites2612Please go and talk to somebody, you were a victim of sexual child abuse.

[@jeremyhall2727]

Comment liked 666 🤔 interesting.. witch (⁠⌐⁠■⁠-⁠■⁠) (⁠ಠ⁠_⁠ಠ⁠)⁠>⁠⌐⁠■⁠-⁠■ I would like you comment. But it would destroy my joke comment

[@ghosty8193]

The thing that got me with Dolores' stomach aches is that it's a very common symptom for SA survivors to have really bad cramps or nausea in the aftermath (I'm talking about after Dolores and Humbert have 'sex' for the first time). Both as a physical symptom of the stress and trauma and as an injury. I'm unsure if that was an established thing when the book came out/in the adaptions, but it just adds another layer.

[@sideways5153]

It’s probably an intentional inclusion - the book is such an accurate depiction of the mind of this kind of creep that it’s definitely rooted in some kind of research or common knowledge. As old as the concept of child brides is, I expect it’s been well-known for a long time what happens when a child gets attacked like this.

[@Romanticoutlaw]

I can't personally verify this but I hear Nabokov was assaulted by an uncle and he drew on that experience a lot for Lolita. If true, I wouldn't be surprised if that tidbit comes from personal experience

[@iananderson4754]

@@Romanticoutlaw i thought the idea behind lolita was his distaste for Freud's "Dora: An Analysis of a Case of Hysteria" where he basically said she only dreamed about the r#pe from her stepfather and that she secretly wanted it to happen. he has also criticized freud in the past for insisting that everybody in the world secretly wants to have sex with their parents.

[@Jack-lo5me]

I once saw an alcoholic beverage on a menu called the "Lolita". When I asked, they said that they heard the word somewhere they can't remember and thought it sounded exotic, like a beautiful woman. I didn't want to interrupt my families dinner by trying to explain that this fruity cocktail was named after a psychological horror novel about grooming and pedophilia from the perspective of said groomer. Needless to say... at least where I live, we need to start actually checking source material.

[@DokiDokiDiscourse]

when i was working on this i ate at a restaurant that called their jalapeño poppers "lolitas", the food there was already disgusting but that added a little moral disgust idk what's up with menu makers, someone's gotta stop them

[@Frogman1212]

Lolita is a fairly common western name too. Most definitely strange following the book.

[@ookamiblade6318]

@@Frogman1212it was an very popular name before the book and dropped off fairly suddenly around 1973 which is only a couple of years after the book was translated so the book might have had an effect on the name. There is also a Japanese street fashion called Lolita that has no meaning relation to the book and is considered a feminist style, there is debate on if this was due to a translation of the novel that removed the subtext or from the Spanish name independent. The style is not associated with the book in Japan at all.

[@Frogman1212]

@@ookamiblade6318 I am well aware of the japanese subculture, however you are deeply wrong about it being feminist and independent of the novel. It is most definitely related to lolicon, and it wouldn't exist if not for male attention. But keep taking the copium.

[@ookamiblade6318]

@@Frogman1212 that’s deeply wrong, though like most things created by women for women the aesthetics have been co-opted in anime in loli designs the fashion movement has largely developed to exclude the male view to the point that it is considered rude to take pictures of those dressed in lolita fashion without their permission. The fashion movement distances itself from sexulization and has emphasis on a sweet adorable celebration of girlhood aesthetic. If you only know lolita through anime I can see where this impression arises, but the history and the philosophy behind the fashion is directed at women for women and is also largely tied to music culture in a similar way punk and emo fashion arose. There are men who dress up in lolita fashion for stage performance though this is again usually directed at a female audience. Lolicon on the other hand did arise from Lolita Complex as interpreted from the novel.

[@JohnDoe-xf8ew]

I've always considered a more experimental approach to filming this novel. Like wouldn't it be such an interesting idea to never even have Dolores ON SCREEN? Have only her voice, shoot maybe the back of her head, or silhouette? Even though Dolores is a character, Humbert has control over her narrative her presence is robbed from us. Also like we don't need to frame young actresses sexually? Like what?

[@auggiemain]

I agree with this completely ! I think it would be cool to never see Dolores because, in reality, Humpert doesn't see her. He's a pedophile and she's a child he has easy access to. She could've been any little girl.

[@linpittsburgh2375]

@@auggiemainor two actresses to play her, like in American Horror Story where the husband and wife see the housekeeper as completely different people, an old lady and a pinup. Cast an actual child, dress her like a child and not a teen, and then cast an adult to actually interact with Humbert physically.

[@auggiemain]

@linpittsburgh2375 I think that would be weird, because Humbert does not see her as an adult. He's a pedophile and very much sees her as a child. Also, portraying her as an adult during those scenes will make it seem like she has more agency.

[@linpittsburgh2375]

@@auggiemainhmm, good point. Just CGI the kid, I guess, if you must make a movie?

[@casanovafunkenstein5090]

I think that that's kind of inspired as a way to frame the story. Not only does it place the focus on the way that Humbert is acting in these situations, but it also parallels the way he sees her as an object and denies her agency. Another added bonus is that you can avoid placing a child actor in sexual situations with an adult (for scenes where this can't be represented on screen without using an actor for Delores you should be able to use a body double, likely an adult actress with some form of dwarfism. You can also have the benefit of doing ADR for all her dialogue with an adult VA who has a young voice). I feel like having the victim very obviously obscured on screen and depersonalised would lend the film a surreal quality to hammer home the unreal nature of the account. That could obviously backfire if it was handled poorly, but I do think that it could work - especially if the scenes between the two are played out without the narration and presented closer to how they happened, instead of having Humbert frame everything to present himself as a misunderstood outcast. The main issue is that it would be exceptionally challenging to get the film made and distributed without compromising on the awfulness.

[@leaeliasisen7676]

Thank you for this extremely important video. As someone who experienced childhood sexual abuse and later how the Danish legal system is still accepting the 'Lolita defense' of WELL BUT SHE SEDUCED ME ACTUALLY, I can attest that this is as relevant as ever. The misreading of Lolita continues to fuck over victims.

[@TiffyVella1]

And the Lolita defense relies upon the victim having no voice, just as Dolores has no voice to counteract Humbert's self-serving narrative-setting. He even overrides her name.

[@alteregobruh]

@@TiffyVella1The Lolita defense is stupid because if you can be successfully seduced by a tween, that it literally your fault. No grown ass man should be seduced by a girl who may not have hit puberty yet. Like she’s a full child, the fuck do you mean she seduced you? You’re the adult here who has the power to say no and shut it down. What’s the kid gonna do? You have the physical and mental advantage. You can’t be seduced by a child, you can only accept the advances of a child, which always puts you at fault. The Lolita defense is so stupid because it’s just “Sure I’m a pedo but she’s a child, I couldn’t help it!” You could help it. You decided to do what you did. You knew it was bad and you knew that, if discovered, you’d be the one in big trouble.

[@dgh25]

source?

[@zebraskin]

First, I'm sorry for what happened to you as a child. Second I was just listening to a 50 year old man basically say this exact thing and bring up Lolita and how he was basically the victim cause she had all the s3xual power. Like, please. I'm a girl that has always looked younger than I am, which in my 20s caused teens to hit on me. Never once was I like "ooohhhh yeahhh giggity" as I was the adult, it is my responsibility for my actions.

[@leaeliasisen7676]

@@dgh25 my life

[@wheeledjustice7381]

If you want to make a movie version of Lolita, I'd keep Humbert as a narrator as he is in the novel but simply have his voiceover not match up with what the movie is presenting. We can have his fiction and the reality simultaneously (without showing the truly terrifying bits obviously). Show us what's going on in the mind of someone who is willing to kill, kidnap and rape because of a fetish.

[@_changeover]

i had a really similar thought! in addition to seeing the reality and hearing humbert’s fictitious narration, he could also voice her dialogue. we only have humbert’s view of not only what dolores says, but how she says it. for example the “look at what you’ve done to me” scene: you could show dolores saying this in a serious manner, traumatized, even screaming and crying, but the audio would be humbert’s voice saying the exact same words, only in a joking tone like he claims she said it. basically, have him, quite literally, steal her voice from the very beginning up to the time skip, and only let us hear her actual voice when she is finally free from him.

[@WankiTank]

my thought exactly. this could be SUCH a good horror movie

[@ariellak4867]

When you said this, my mind went to 500 Days of Summer where they showed in multiple ways how the reality didn't match the fantasy

[@Siphyr]

Pedophilia isn't a fetish, it's a mental illness

[@Sofiaode18]

I’m thinking of American Psycho where they did a good job of making the audience realize that Bateman was a delusional loser the whole time.

[@Jess1Dude]

Even IF she initiated the "relationship", it wouldn't matter as she's a minor and he's a pediphile/murderer! Only a pediphile would think this a love story, imo! Sorry Doki, I know you put warnings, but watching this video made me nauseous. Yet I'm glad I did, and thanks for your careful, thorough, and thoughtful examination of this much misinterpreted Lolita.

[@zaddkiel4458]

I don't agree with the only pedophile would think it's a love story, a lot of victims could too, sometime it's easier to not face the reality and think things you went through weren't wrong because it give the victim a fake sense of control and it can take a long time to process the real impact of the situation

[@EnderPanReigns]

@@deanjustdean7818 not sure if the comment is saying at the end that we need to end paedophilia (in which case, obviously agree), or if youre going to off yourself?

[@lazarus8018]

The author literally starts the book by saying Humbert is a pile of human dogshit that is not to be trusted under any circumstances. Yet 2 directors somehow missed that.

[@Look_look_at_my_cats]

I'm in my 40s, and I finally decided to read the book this year because after a lifetime of hearing the popular idea of Lolita, I was curious. I guess I thought it was some tale of titillating seduction, like pop culture would have it. Oh my god I could barely get through the last half. How anyone could read about grooming, rape, kidnapping, and manipulation of a CHILD and come away with the idea that she seduced anyone, much less a grown man, is beyond me. I'm assuming most of the people pushing that narrative haven't read it, but if they have, they clearly aren't firing on all cylinders. As it was, I finished it and couldn't return it to the library fast enough. Incidentally, I read some reddit post where someone asked AITA for telling their daughter all about a family member's conviction for assault of a child (so their daughter would know to avoid him), when all the family wanted to protect the man because "he was the victim of a Lolita seduction" and I'm like WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT IS you dumbass it's called GROOMING AND ASSAULT like that's what he was convicted for!! Fucking idiots!

[@robokill387]

Yes, the men who read it as "romantic" and as about the child "seducing" the adult were most certainly pedophiles themselves, or at least rapey.

[@cherry_tonic]

honestly i think if a woman tried to adapt this book and didn't try to make it into some "forbidden romance" or have lingering shots of Dolores / trying to dress her to look a little more grown up, it would get across the actual horror of this entire book. trying to adapt this into a horrifying movie instead of them using only Humbert's perspective entirely then i think it could work better. there needs to be framing of HOW those scenes were her being taken advantage of. ALSO DON'T HIRE A TEENAGER FOR THE ROLE. edit: this comment has been up for a few days and honestly? you all have really good ideas on how you think the story should be handled and it's been REALLY nice getting to talk with everyone about it :D

[@ashleygriffin]

I've been wanting to make that movie for a long time...

[@cherry_tonic]

@@ashleygriffin i have complete faith in you being able to make a great movie

[@ashleygriffin]

@@cherry_tonic Thank you! Hmm...I might have to do a video on this... :)

[@Mr.Murasakino]

You think that they should be cast older or younger?

[@cherry_tonic]

@@Mr.Murasakino older because the concept of a teenager on that set makes me ill or just don't ever make the movie

[@zzz808-]

I really like that acknowledges how we still have "lolita" figures in the media because of how awfully common young girls get constantly sexualized

[@hugosenshida999]

Take the last two letters of lolita and you'll be heavily disappointed Or traumatized

[@thenablade858]

@@hugosenshida999Further proof that weebs should be castrated.

[@Arkstromater]

It’s terrible…. Most kids first look at sex is through internet porn these days….and we all know how sex is portrayed on the internet

[@hugosenshida999]

@emimia3177 i am serious dont worry Im pointing out that unfortunately the idea of children being sexualized is currently rising and reprocussions are bare to none

[@pigeontoes5421]

@emimia3177 Whats the difference between the fictional Dolores and any other fictional child? Would you find it acceptable for anyone to lust after Dolores?

[@calciferx6539]

Any adaptation that portrays Humbert as any shade of sympathetic has failed. Same goes for anyone who missed that the whole novel was Humbert's empty fluff self-justification of acts he knew were horrific

[@zapazap]

Has failed the do what?

[@calciferx6539]

@@zapazap produce an accurate adaptation

[@KasumiRINA]

I mean the book is LITERALLY written by a russian. They're all self-pitying peadophile rapists. Every single one of them. Reading that bullshit is like Mein Kampf, just... don't?

[@aregulargenericname8794]

​@@KasumiRINAAh yes every russian is a pedo. Any proof? Or lets say, i call every Ukrainian a pedo, you would then go ape shit, saying things like " No No nNoNO RussiA Pedo awlYs"

[@saint_silver]

Humbert being sympathetic, worldly and charming is part of the point of the novel.

[@zitadoeza]

It's really depressing to realize we live in a society that is well aware sexual activity with minors is a bad thing, yet at the same time is saturated with the objectification and sexualization of said minors.

[@jeremyhall2727]

Backwards thinking 🤔 you're a bad person if you do this. But let's all creep over it 🤷🏾 I'm having a hard time putting it into words

[@dreamerwav698]

"sexualizing minors is bad, but what im doing isnt sexualizing minors! look, shes into it and this is totally different. besides, shes fictional, you snowflakes!"

[@noahmclaughlin7921]

MFW child beauty pageants are still normalized in a lot of my country

[@jeremyhall2727]

@@noahmclaughlin7921 yeah mine too.. but they used too be bigger. I remembered people saying, "oh when I have a girl.. I'm totally going to enter her." If you ask them about that now; they would say, "For my kid to get r°ped? No thank you."

[@blastermaster5039]

@@noahmclaughlin7921 You can blame Biden for that

[@bunnyhun]

Lynes adaptation was so harmful to young girl who were victims to obsessive (faux loving) assault. 2010s tumblr had a huge community of girls trying to play up the persona of lolita to justify what happened to them as a way of having control over the situation. But in the end , it just was us revictimizing ourselves for pedos online to gawk over.

[@vaultboy404]

That's horrible

[@katyfive1]

how did they play up the persona?

[@speakatron5634]

@@katyfive1 yeah, tell us in great detail.

[@katyfive1]

@@speakatron5634 ?? I'm not sure what your point is here, to a genuine question

[@speakatron5634]

@@katyfive1 Sorry. I was joking.

[@alexjames7144]

Kubrick: "The film failed because of the Hays code" Literally everyone else: "Well why tf did you make it then?" Trying to adapt lolita under the Hays code is like trying to adapt Harry Potter but all portrayals of magic are banned. Its not like the Hays code was a surprise, he knew it existed. Adaptating Lolita is inherently a bad idea because the thing that makes it great is impossible to translate to film, its use of the literary form is integral to its existence. To adapt it when the subject matter is literally banned is the bizarrest of choices.

[@mckenzie.latham91]

To be fair, working around the Hayes code often made films better and more creative and artistic And Kurbick was very well adapted to that The issue is that it doesn't work with this specific subject matter and book But I could see Kubrick as willing to try but failing.

[@nhaedzwero43]

@@mckenzie.latham91 He failed bad, and his "trying" included literally dismissing the original author's screenplay. Romanticizing csa is unforgivable.

[@jesustovar2549]

I don't care what people thinks, I'll stick with Kubrick's adaptation, James Mason did it well, Shelley Winters too, Sue Lyon (passed away in 2019) was perfect for the role and one of the best kid's performances I've ever seen, Peter Sellers great as always, and the fact that it wasn't so explicit made it easier for me to see the movie (leave the explicit for A Clockwork Orange which is a better movie adaptation, sometimes I think that Kubrick showed these things to see if people's morals were working correctly). The one thing I rescue from the 90s film is Ennio Morricone's score, now this is off topic, but I saw a documentary called "Ennio" in which the life of the maestro was being narrated by himself when he was still alive, it was truly great, I recommend it, in one part Ennio said that he regreted not working with Kubrick, Stanley wanted Morricone to score A Clockwork Orange originally, this would have been interesting since Kubrick didn't contract composers to make scores at that time, but I won't take away the work done by Wendy Carlos with her electronic arrangements of classical pieces in Clockwork.

[@jesustovar2549]

They don't call it the "Golden Age of Hollywood" for nothing, sadly it was coming to an end, but I have no regrets as the new Hollywood in the late 60s and 70s was great.

[@nhaedzwero43]

@@jesustovar2549 just because not everything was bad, and other things are worse, doesn't mean that it's good. The story didn't send the message Nabokov, himself as a victim of csa, wanted to send: Humbert is an evil man and Dolores is his victim. It's a movie, a romance one, therefore it's a failure, and not one that couldn't be avoided.

[@darksnivyclaire6683]

If the book must be adapted to film I think it would be best to frame it more from Dolores' point of view. Rather than lingering shots of a young girl's body, there would be lingering shots of a strange man we barely know watching our focal character from a distance. Don't give us any backstory from Humbert to emphasize just how little Dolores knows about him or give it to us through someone reading his writing. I'm also thinking there would be symbolism in doors and windows. Possible escape routes. Reflections in windows where Humbert can be seen leering at her from across the room.

[@Chubbasaurus]

Absolutely, reframe the whole thing as a horror movie.

[@andreabanuelosavila2317]

Uffff, I’d pay for a film with that framing.

[@SJisReading]

If they're going to stay true to the book and keep Humbert as the POV character, I don't think turning us into Humbert is the way to do it. No lingering shots, just show her being a normal kid. Then cut to his face. He's staring. Intently. He's breathing heavily. Get the sound design in on it. He's super turned on by what we can plainly see is just a kid being a kid. That sounds pretty fucking horrific to me.

[@kellabdjfoo]

Definitely agree!

[@kellabdjfoo]

@@SJisReadingdefinitely agree!

[@Agridulce_Doll]

When I was a teenager (and until my 20) I used to believe that lolita was indeed the one who had provoked Humbert, and even felt sorry for him. Now as an adult, and after taking psychological therapy, I realized that it was a way of thinking that I used to not accept my own sexual abuse, wanting to believe that I was the one who started it all, perhaps as a way to maintain control In a situation where there was nothing I could do, it was very difficult for me to realize the damage I suffered, the manipulations to which I was subjected so that my abuser would have control over me,

[@Elora445]

I remember that period so clearly... I was like how you described, too. I've also been abused and fully believed that I was the one who instigated everything. ...I was eight. Just no. Sadly all too common for victims to convince themselves that they are the ones who caused it all to happen.

[@baru0chan]

this should be mandatorily played in every literature class because it's sickening how many male AND female teachers still portray it as a star-crossed lovers story

[@calvindang7291]

I'm glad I was never made to analyze this story in class. I read it after the librarian recommended it to me in middle school and it's one of the best novels I've read, but it's always been obvious how my teacher had read the assigned readings and I didn't always agree with them.

[@ArissaHaque]

I have major respect for you for including the fact that female abusers exist. Most would just say its only men

[@hsgrgvshr5882]

I think casting a normal child for the role would improve the adaptations so much, because they are so focused on the way Lolita looks in both adaptations and the thing is, Humbert isn’t attracted to Lolita because of her looks, he is attracted to her because she is a CHILD. Never in the books does he describe her looks separate from her being a child. That is one of the most disgusting parts of the book, because he is sexualising stuff that’s completely innocent. He even gets sad multiple times during the book cuz he only has a few years left with her, because she will GROW UP and then plans to get her pregnant with a girl in hopes that she will look like Dolores SO HE CAN RAPE HER TOO. In the movies Dolores acts like a child trying to be grown up, and they make it seem like she is somehow “mature” for her age and that THAT is what attracts Humbert to her, which not only completely misses the point but also adds to the victim blaming mentality, as if her acting more “mature” excuses Humbert for being a creep. So casting a normal kid, and refusing to sexualise it, because a child can’t be attractive and it’s fucking weird to try to make one appear so would be better.The stuff that Humbert is attracted to in the books are not Lolita wearing makeup (he is disgusted by it because it makes her look OLDER) but oddly specific shit like her having dirty feet from running around the garden. Also Dolores is not good looking in the books, he even says that, and I think that Nabukov wanted to specify that so we understand what Humbert is actually attracted to, which is the creepy part, you are not supposed to understand him you are supposed to be weirded out by the stuff that he is sexualising but I guess casting 14 year olds that fit the beauty standard ( like why would you choose to ignore the fact that Dolores is not pretty in the book you creep) so that you can make them look attractive to the audience for some fucking reason and objectifying them, going out of your way to explain to us why a pedo could find this 12 year old child sexy with those lingering shots and skimpy outfits with an excuse that it iz from Humbert POV is totally hitting the mark.

[@Tetradepodmelontea]

Hubert in the book both is attracted to "nymphette" kind of girl, which he describes in a very mysterious way. Not a normal looking and innocent, but also not the most beautiful or mature. He describes this kind as a angelical and yet with demonical vibe. He described something along the, 20's vamp estetique, with naturally bright lips and piercing eyes. He likes "bad tomboy girl" type with " vamp" undertone, nyphette type, not a normal girl. Second adaptation is closer to original than first, but still imperfect. And Nabokov himself told that the most important scene is hairdresser scene. It took him a lot time and effort to not be too obvious in that scene for reader to enjoy the mystery.

[@caitlinsnowfrost8244]

If they're worried about sexualizing an actual child, there are plenty of adult women who look like thirteen-year-olds (source: I'm in my 20s and I get carded all the time because people think I'm a kid.)

[@arianbyw3819]

Absolutely. Humbert wouldn't be attracted to the Hollywood ideal, just some poor kid.

[@xpandorasboxx]

I disagree with casting a child, simply because they don't need to be exposed to the source material. Hiring an actress who already looks young, mixed with a combination of clever perspective play, costuming and maybe even a touch of DeepFake to make the character look much younger would be the better option. Paired with a horror movie vibe, and the perspective shots from her point of view / thoughts to show just how awful he is

[@jessh4016]

"You're mature for your age" is literally a stereotypical line pedos use. And the adaptations played into it...

[@taylor6099]

The delivery of "She hadn't long to live...she only had one kidney" had me rolling tbh given I'm not even a year out from a transplant. What an insanely specific thing to add

[@leonineKelter]

Yeah my dad was a kidney doner like 4 years ago and is still kicking 😭 how badly did they fuck that up? Like. If her one kidney was also failing that makes sense but they just imply one kidney is a death sentence???

[@bad-girlbex3791]

It wasn't just that she only had one kidney, but that that one kidney had nephritis. At the time the film was made, successful kidney transplantations had only been a thing for about 10 years, but even then the amount of transplants that actually "took" were not great. Even today, if you receive a kidney via donation, and even if everything goes according to plan, you're most likely going to require another one after 10 years because of the amount of damage via (mostly) inflammation, among other things. Kidney damage because of nephritis would indeed have been something that would kill a person born with just one kidney in the 1940s (the time at which the novel sets the story) or the 1960s (the decade when Kubrick made his film. In fact the first successful kidney transplant from a living donor took place in 1962 the exact year Kubrick released Lolita.) And all that is aside from the fact that Charlotte probably wouldn't have even known that she only had one kidney, or nephritis for that matter because of the lack of diagnostic tools available for such matters to be clarified back in the 40s.

[@agustinamagpie]

My mom was born without a kidney, and there she is, at 57 yo lol

[@ZBarl]

I find it very interesting the way pedophilia was treated in the west in the 1950s. We're very often told that "That's just it's always been done", but it's not. The 1950s had a lower average age of marriage than the western world had since early medieval times. There are so many cases of adult men dating teenagers (Alvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis), and that isn't normal. That WASN'T normal. Even the examples of Juliette and Paris or Dante and Beatrice are not actual examples of pedophilia. Paris and Juliette (which are 25 and 13) are set to be married, but Juliette's father tells Paris to wait until Juliette is older, and even then it is very much established that this engagement is bad, unwanted. And Dante and Beatrice is a completely different situation. Yes, Dante fell in love with Beatrice when she was 8. But he was 9. They were both children. When he writes about his love for her as an 8 year old (which he barely does, he usually speaks about her when she was almost 18) he writes about his childhood love. About emotions he had for a child AS A CHILD. reminiscing about a childhood love isn't pedophilia. Dante was only several months older than Beatrice, not a 50 year old man chasing a little girl. And yet, we are pushed the narrative that "its always been like that" that pedophilia was once normal But that was never the truth. At least not until mid century America and western Europe. I'm not sure what caused it, but I am sure that that revision of history is dangerous (and probably why those examples are in Lolita, because I guess it is meant to show how it isn't normal, how there aren't actual examples of it through history)

[@Pollicina_db]

Wow, as someone who studies italian and itc culture I never ever thought that Dante was a pedophile I mean its obvious he’s reminiscing about his first crush as a kid like you said. Its disgusting how pedophilia is supported so much now a days, il mondo diventò così brutto…

[@morgantrias3103]

My theory is that men have over time come to fetishize power imbalances. Because subjugating women was cultural, and fetishized. So the healthy ammongst us get over it or channel those feelings into kink. But as women regained social power the worst of men found their attraction shifting automatically more towards the only people who are still totally helpless and still treated as property: childen.

[@sophian6965]

The fact that Kubrick's adaptation was created, accepted by the public, AND led to the novel's cover portraying Lolita as 'desirable' IS a real-life horror story. There are a lot of monsters in this world.

[@DanTheOcelotMan]

Adapted by the worst kind of people to adapt it, people like Humbert. Hearing about the production and everything surrounding these adaptations makes me nauseous

[@jobisn]

"Humbert isn't a monster, he's a Libertarian" KILLED me

[@tumultoustortellini]

As a libertarian, I can say that he's entirely wrong. I'm not a pedephile. I hate feet.

[@BMoser-bv6kn]

@@tumultoustortellini It's a joke man. Only 30% of libertarians are on a crusade to abolish the age of consent laws. Another 35% just want to legalize weed. And the rest either want to bring back slavery (at least in abolishing the "you have to pay people real money" laws, bringing back company scrip) or are temporarily confused anarchists of one kind or another.

[@flazzorb]

33:04 I feel it important to note, Dante was writing about a girl he knew _when he was a child. She is not eight years old in the book, she was eight years old when he knew her. She was _*_twenty-four years old_*_ when she died, which she did before he wrote the book._

[@ettaetta439]

He was also 9 years old when he had a crush on her. She was 8. Oh my god, the horror, what an age gap!

[@facuuu2809]

Dante is the same as Humbert!! /s

[@nerd9777]

Unrelated but how do you get the words to be slanted? I always knew how to make them *bold* but slanted gives me trouble.

[@ettaetta439]

@@nerd9777 The word for it is italics. I don't know how to get it in italics lol but that's the word.

[@flazzorb]

@@nerd9777 Underscores _

[@aceoflights.]

1:00:16 Fun fact. The author of the book actually insisted that his book was not anti war. Neither was it pro war. He just described war as it was. (Which goes to show that actually any media that isn't actively glorifying war is anti war by default.)

[@lilyhawthorne1196]

Reminds me of All Quiet on the Western Front. Although the author is definitely anti-war most of the anti-war sentiment from the book was built up on just showing war, rather than commentating on it

[@KasumiRINA]

@@deanjustdean7818 There's a third category of people who are called "pro-war". The anti-fascists. Being AGAINST fighting Hitler, Assad, or putin, is objectively pro-mass-murder choice. “Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me'.” -George Orwell. Can't pretend you are anti-war while supporting russian cultural exports like books about paedos this video is about.

[@aregulargenericname8794]

​@@KasumiRINAWhat, what are you on about, You straight up called russian culture pedophilia through other comments and call the author a pedo, are you legit like insane or something? Also you can be anti war while supporting books like these from russia, its called not siding or agreeing with the war, are you a genuine wchizo or something? Also "pacifism is pro fascist" don't make me laugh

[@hurremhightower]

@@KasumiRINAi don’t see what a russian author that a made a book about grooming has anything to do a present war started by russia,by that logic whole europe should be abolished(fully agreed)

[@soph996]

​@@lilyhawthorne1196that's the book the movie is based on. Like, the reason why it reminds you of All Quiet on the Western Front is because it IS All Quiet on the Western Front

[@jbean5082]

I think part of the problem with trying to make a good adaptation of Lolita kind of overlaps with euphoria criticism, if your characters who are supposed to be underage are oversexualized (even if done well) it creeps everyone out

[@LeoDBW]

I've seen more people praise these characters rather than being creeped out by their oversexualization, it's like: The author: "Teenage hypersexualization is a terrible phenomenon, they can become the target of predatory adults!" The adaptation: * hypersexualize teens while making it appealing * The audience: "OMG girlboss! Queen! She's so sexy❤"

[@fionakeenan7885]

I think that's the point tho, it's supposed to be uncomfortable because it is.

[@TiffyVella1]

She is oversexualised in Humbert's mind. The rest of us may only see a child. Either, to me, is disturbing, because both are naturally disturbing for good reason.

[@jbean5082]

@@fionakeenan7885 I don’t think the sex scenes in euphoria are supposed to be uncomfortable for the most part, specifically the ones with Sydney Sweeney.

[@lilac.mascara]

​@@fionakeenan7885the drug use yes, the sex scenes tough aren't really supposed to do that, if you watch Levinsons work you start noticing the pattern a bit more

[@sugarcoatedslaughterhouse4937]

Absolutely fucked that some people read Lolita as anything other than an adult man preying on a little girl.

[@zapazap]

Does reading it as MORE than that count as reading it other than that? Cheers!

[@theunkindnessofravens]

Interesting fact: a lot of pedos in their confession of crimes describe their (child) victims as “the real perpetrators”. The idea is always that the children are seductive, taking advantage of poor helpless adults; that if children didn’t want sexual advances, they shouldn’t have been so sexual in nature. In this light the second adaptation is very much a look into the mind of a pedophile. In my opinion it also says a lot about the director, since he didn’t take care to clarify what was a deprived fantasy and what wasn’t :/

[@iananderson4754]

well technically they only did that when Freud suggested that children who were SA were asking for and wanted it.

[@theunkindnessofravens]

@@iananderson4754 not really, people have been using victim blaming long before Freud came along. He did influence other things in terrible ways, like pathologizing homosexual attraction, flat out denying the possibility of asexuality, or assuming that women have penis envy because they feel “less then men”. Not to mention the steadfast belief that everyone is attracted to their mother and if they aren’t, they are in denial. It’s slathered all over his works. He did do a lot for modern psychology, but he is kind of a slimy little man

[@Topdoggie7]

To anyone who has a doubt about this, as soon as Lo becomes an adult, he will drop her. All p3dophile victims grow out of their abuser's age range and once they do, they are dropped no love, no money, they are abandoned and a new person is grapped. There is no love here. It is an object like a toy and once the toy is used up, you throw it away. Sincerely, a CSA victim.

[@fall_tea8857]

I feel incredibly sorry for what happened to you. I hope you’re doing good.

[@Topdoggie7]

@@fall_tea8857 Thanks for the care. Unfortunately getting therapy takes a billion years if you're not filled with cash. So I've been on a waiting list for like half a decade between temp psychiatrists. But I do help other CSA and SA victims and empower domestic abuse victims with their rights and escape routes so I guess it's not for nothing.

[@S.D.323]

I hope youre feeling better now

[@Topdoggie7]

@@S.D.323 No. What was done to me only got worse and when I got out of CSA I was safe until puberty hit then I was brutally abused my knees broken. I have had no knee movement beyond a gentle bend and a slow walk for half of my life. The pain is constant. Aging out of shit and into being an extra mouth and cost is horrifying.

[@mus7c]

i honestly feel like the answer to adaption is way easier. yes, you will need more narration, but this is what would establish humbert as the unreliable narrator that he has always been. we hear him narrating this love story he concocted for himself while the images on the screen show a closer depiction of what happened, lo defending and fighting him back, her bringing friends over and then not when she realizes he finds them attractive too, her crying. he does mention he knew she would cry herself to sleep and he knew she didn't feel the same by the end, so let's show that. but i guess for those version to happen you would need a woman to direct it - or at least a man with critical thinking skills.

[@jazzclarke7128]

either this or have the movie split - showing Humbert's version he wants to present or remember with the same scene then shown again, but the reality. romantic montages with clips of her horror or sadness interspliced. or maybe that would be too confusing idk adding that using filters could make this really artistic, warm toned ideal and blueish reality

[@mavg.]

@@jazzclarke7128 like Joker

[@TimeTellsNoLies90]

@@jazzclarke7128 Kinda like the Last Duel?

[@theangrysmurf12]

American beauty did this pretty well with the cheerleader scene, where the girl that Kevin Spacey was lusting after was just doing a normal routine and dance and having fun like a child. But to Spacey's character there is no one else there, and she's doing a striptease.

[@Jess1Dude]

I'd watch that version.

[@komal146]

i despise the 1997 adaptation far more than Kubrick's. Sexualizing an actual teen and making her the instigator makes Humbert seem like a passive responder who's ill but at least he's resisting ti and wouldn't have done this had that girl not tempted him. Also, the idea that Lolita is in power for like, withholding sex is so laughable. that sprinkler shot told me all i needed to know about this adaptation. they could've done the whole hazy dreamy sequence and withheld the closeup of her wet clothes and feet. Keep redeeeming your Humbert all you want, but either show us the child victim getting preyed upon and its effects or if you want to make DOLORES more active, show her trying to attempt escape and dreaming of other life.

[@screamingbegins4688]

bruh both girls who played lolita were 14 at the time of filming

[@alexisfreeze]

You clearly didn’t u detest and the film or the movie if that was your takeaway. Sounds like you can’t read between the lines and need to have everything spelled out for you. “Keep redeeming your Humbert” LOL That’s all the proof I need that you didn’t understand.

[@ryu246]

@@screamingbegins4688 🤢

[@mmgs1148]

@@screamingbegins4688 wasnt dominique 16?

[@screamingbegins4688]

@@mmgs1148 no

[@LylWren]

Honestly if there were to ever be a modern day adaptation I think it would be best as a miniseries. Have the framing device be a psychologist reading Creeper's diaries with horror. It would HAVE TO BE a horror story. I agree with other commenters, a female director would probably be best. Specifically a female director that understands how horrifying the situation is. And actually maybe just have it animated. Because I don't want a child actor near this shit. (Also I would want Dolores to live at the end.)

[@gav2057]

You LITERALLY said what I was thinking while watching this video!

[@g00dpaws]

Amateur animator here, I'd work on that project for peanuts.

[@kyndramb7050]

Having an episode (or several) framed through Dolores' view would be amazing.

[@CureSmileful]

and the retropective scenes could show Dolores' perspective

[@jabber7935]

not only live, but get help as well. Live to be happy eventually working on her trauma. Show that its possible to live after.

[@marteris9464]

The fact that anyone could ever read this book and have a reaction other than utter revulsion and horror, let alone trying to paint Dolores as “aN eQUaL abUSer” is well and truly mind boggling and I would like for those people to stop existing.

[@zapazap]

You want them to die on account of being insufficiently sensitive to the novel?

[@thenablade858]

@@zapazapYes, actually. Nobody deserves to die for lacking media literacy, but believing that a 12 year old girl can somehow sexually abuse her guardian (who drugs her, rapes her, moves her across the country and hears her crying every night) makes you effectively brain-dead already.

[@somedragonbastard]

​@@zapazapstop existing doesn't necessarily mean die in this context. That type of people could stop existing bc they. Yknow. Develop reading comprehension. Something I suggest you work on as well

[@zapazap]

@@somedragonbastard "bc they. Y'know." Sorry sir, I don't know. At least, I don't know what you mean by "bc they". I invite you to elaborate. Cheers!

[@PixelRoserade]

​@@zapazap Pro tip: Try replacing some of those periods with commas. Maybe the meaning will hit you square in the noggin this time.

[@MikaelaCher]

There are many problems with portraying Dolores as the seductress, but one of them which i feel nobody talks about, and that one that makes the excuse of 'It's Humbert's perspective' completely ridiculous, is that Humbert is turned on by Lolita being a child. By acting as a child, by dressing as one. She's 12, and he knows that, and she acts that way, and he likes it. By making her more seductress you're also making Humbert's attraction not to her as a child, but to this sort of seductres child, which is also disgusting, but it's not the way he sees her. He sees her as a child: that's why he likes her. He idolizes her, but not because she acts in a sexual way, but because he thinks anything she does has a sexual tone to it, and the things she does are, well, child things!! The Lyne film i think tries to get this point better with the milk, but also fails at depicting more of this. When Humbert sees Dolores drinking milk like a child, he likes it. When she drinks the milk in a sensual way, he doesn't enjoy it, because she acts 'more mature' to say it somehow. However, since the movie constantly makes a point of sexualizing the main actress, this little detail completely falls flat. I think having a romantic looking horror movie would be more appropriate, because the aesthetic and tone of the romance type movie would contrast with the disturbing way this man is thinking about his step daughter!! Midsommar inmediatly comes to mind, with beautiful yet disturbing scenes that communicate you 'don't trust what you're seeing, trust your gut instinct'

[@annalunelli13]

The cover of the ebook I have is just a picture of a naked chest from a strange angle that shows just one slightly blury breast, unmistakable though. made it very uncomfortable to read it in public. And I actually had a hard time finding a less explicit cover, which is a big part of the problem in how people perceive the book/story

[@Natilra]

Yeah, even the audiobook (read by Jeremy Irons) has that sprinkler poster as the cover

[@jesustovar2549]

@@Natilra Is there an audiobook read by Jeremy Irons? I realize now.

[@ravenrodriguez3599]

this book is so heartbreaking, there’s no justice for Lo, and Humbert, although he can say himself a monster, doesn’t at all feel regretful. It’s so plain in how he describes writing the novel as the only account of their love story. When she cries after being r*ped, he only sees it as emotional bouts happening that year. It’s so well written, the author partially redeems the character but the reader is responsible for remembering how evil and cruel Humbert really is.

[@Asehpe]

I think the overemphasized foot fetish thing in Lyne's Lolita movie was probably due to the director thinking this would be easier to accept by the audience than full sexual scenes. Even today, we tend to look down on foot fetishists, as if they were silly or childish; there's something slightly comedic about them to us. By overplaying it in the movie, I think Lyne managed to avoid the problem of Dolores and Humbert actually having, well, sex.

[@ghosty8193]

That's what I thought! It's so much easier to portray foot fetishes than pedophilia and rape. Like, the scene in the first hotel where Dolores is tiredly stretching her legs and the shot of her feet is actually very powerful to me (and I could be way overanalysing here); a foot fetish is sexual. And even if it's not a 'deviance' (ie, illegal or incredibly taboo) the audience recognises that feet = arousal both in the context of the movie and in real life. By showing her feet we, as the audience, know Humbert is aroused. And it does it without showing a porn-esque expression from Dolores, which would arguably be less effective. It's not the most clever symbolisation, but it's one of the more interesting and smarter things about the movie.

[@kelly-bisson]

The author literally starts the book saying "this is an evil account written by an evil man who did evil things" and people argue that it's not that simple.

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

38:30 I think I do get one thing about her personality from the novel. The fact that she kept trying to escape, the fact that she protected her female friends from Humbert, the fact that she said no to being in those smut films, the fact that she recovered enough afterward to get married and try to build a normal life... all that, as far as I can see, builds a picture of an incredibly strong young woman. Someone who didn't give up or accept defeat easily.

[@just_foxy35]

one of the aftermaths of this misunderstanding of what Lolita is would be mothers telling their young prepubescent children to "dress less revealing" "less sexy" or even "stop being a Lolita", implying at 12, 13, 14yo wearing clothes they genuinely enjoy like short skirts and dresses, fishnets, thigh highs... with no sexual context attached are purposefully seeking older men's attention for sexual purposes the other part I've noticed is those 13, 14yos making this "young seductress" their aesthetic and subculture. romanticizing especially student teacher relationships, not understanding how bad it is. not understanding they have been conditioned into letting others take advantage of them and have an excuse for it. there's a line between those 2 and it can be incredibly blurry, do you or do you not let your child dress in what is generally seen as revealing, an invitation do you or do you not blame the child, when you should blame the adults who view the child as a temptation

[@laurenbader1566]

when i was 12/13, the “nymphette aesthetic” was hugeee on tumblr. i fell into that trap and it honestly freaks me out as a 21 year old woman now that i was exposed to that at such a young age

[@just_foxy35]

@@laurenbader1566 I personally spent way too much time on wattpad- so, so many guide books, aesthetic collection books,,, fanfictions with adult/child ships. written by presumably children. and the way they just disregard you when you bring in the reasoning. I've been told "don't like it? don't read it" on a aizawaXdekuXmic fanfic, where the two adopted him and "caught feelings" sick stuff. and actual 13 yos were reading it like it's a good thing

[@zapazap]

Giving a child that caution does not imply the child purposefully doing any such thing

[@just_foxy35]

@@zapazap are you meaning to say that I was carrying the guilt of being a whore just for wanting to wear what brought me joy (and opting out as not to be widely seen as it) while still a literal for nothing or do you not get the point I was making. are you aware that people who want to take advantage don't actually care for the clothes, because what you wear is NOT an invitation. "giving a child that caution" shouldn't be "don't wear that skirt, are you trying to lure in older men?" (wording directly makes you conscious doer) maybe a "if you wear that perverts will try things with you" (not perfect but at least the doer in that sentence is not you, the child) best would be to hold pedos accountable instead of policing if a child's garment ends above their knees. or if their shoulders are covered. if their belly button isn't showing. I was aware of creeps who wanted kids existing before I knew Lolita was a thing. I never asked to be compared to her, or rather the skewed public perception of her. CHILDREN aren't meant to be sexualised,, even as a warning.

[@gRinchY-op5vr]

​@zapazap the point is predators are going to prey on children regardless of how they dress, how they dress has nothing to do with it. Same way how women dress has nothing to do with how certain men treat them, it's just an excuse created to pass blame onto the victim.

[@Thommy2n]

It's a relief that Dominique Swain didn't have any producers creeping on her like what Sue Lyon did. But you look at her talking about the casting process it could have easily gone that route. When she had a late night promo interview with Craig Fergusen, she talked about how her parents only found out about her being cast AFTER the producers had flown her unaccompanied across the country for a screen test while they were out of town. It's played off for laughs when they talk (and again, by all accounts, nothing inappropriate happened) but you can't help but think in hindsight STRANGER DANGER! STRANGER DANGER!!!

[@lkblondie8061]

Sadly Jeremy Irons definitely has an attraction to children though ):

[@elfodelputoinfierno]

​@@lkblondie8061 he WHAT now?? Oh god here I go again with "discovering shit via comments"

[@lilac.mascara]

Watched a clip of Natsha Lyonne talking about auditioning and they asked her to eat a banana slowly like eww

[@maeveburgess4553]

Well now I want Sophia Coppola to direct "Dolores" where the titular character actually has a child's body without curves.

[@balesplace]

ok sophia Coppola could actually eat this up

[@eleonorepb4565]

Hum we already had the movie 16 printemps by Suzanne Lindon...

[@LizardsLore]

Are you kidding me…there’s a dude on the internet who isn’t trying to convince people it’s a love story. THANK YOU. That’s an instant sub from me. I feel if this ever gets re-adapted I tend to agree with Jamie Loftus that it should be an animated film from the POV of Dolores where all voice actors are adults ps Jeremy Irons actually slapped Dominique Swain during a test screening

[@Iquey]

That would help. Dolores could be voiced by someone 18-19, while sound editing technology could make her lines digitally younger.

[@weirddd469]

​@@Iqueythat sounds like a bit of extra work on the tech part but overall I think an animated movie would fit best (with adult va too)

[@lilypad2714]

@@Iqueynot even just editing technology, some voice actresses can make their voices sound younger or have naturally young sounding voices, so with the right casting I don’t even think that any editing would be needed :3

[@YOSSARIAN313]

​@@Iquey id prefer if it was voiced by someone older then edited with AI if necessary. 18-19 year olds shouldnt be involved

[@marche800]

The parallels between assailants being totally aware of their actions being wrong and doing it wrong and the industry's seeming awareness of their actions being wrong yet doing it anyway, is honestly chilling and speaks to the tone deaf and predatory nature of producers and money men.

[@cericat]

Hollywood has always had a problem with CSA sadly, child actors rarely went unabused especially back then, it's part of what contributed to the eventual self destruction of Judy Garland amongst others.

[@Lyijyyy]

Gotta say I'm super fascinated by your B-roll footage. At a few points I realized I hadn't listened to anything you said in a minute while watching you whack the shit out of a tree branch. Incredible.

[@DokiDokiDiscourse]

love this

[@Pepsimaaann]

The b-roll at 34:00 ish made me think that some bike riding or skateboarding there would be fascinating to watch. Amazing b-roll

[@leonineKelter]

Timestamp?

[@leonineKelter]

I usually listen to videos while doing things so I miss most of the video parts😔

[@Pepsimaaann]

@@leonineKelter tree branch is at 24:00

[@kitszasz3971]

7 hour screenplay is hilarious because Nabokov should have paired up with Béla Tarr and make it happen

[@erzsebetkovacs2527]

In that case, the film would be a psychological horror, indeed.

[@bad-girlbex3791]

The point Nabokov was making was that the film shouldn't be made at all.

[@bwap7037]

Tbh that 7 hours could made in into a thriller drama

[@mekkio77]

I think you could have a good adaption of the book if and only if it is animated. That way you could do many interpretations of the novel. Like have parts of Dolores' actual reality be drawn in black and white while Humbert Humbert's vision be in color. Reverse could work as well. Humbert Humbert's vision could be black and white while Dolores' world could look more realistic in color. You could actually have an actual 12 year old Dolores rather than an aged up actor playing her. You just need to draw her as such.

[@camdecay]

thats what i was thinking, or maybe humbert’s pov could be animated and lo’s could be real footage of actors. it could cut between them in a way that no actual young girls would have to be in uncomfortable situations.

[@westonlong]

I was thinking animated and tell the story through Dolores' eyes

[@yb0oot]

It’d do the book much more justice as I feel like you could properly explore the actual meaning behind it much more explicitly and creatively than you could with film

[@BestBetterBestest]

The treatment of Lolita reminds me, in some ways, of the myth of Hades and Persephone and how people insist on portraying it as a love story as well. It doesn’t matter what the actual themes of the story are, or how they’re framed. It’s about fixing the ugly things we don’t wanna think about.

[@lyokianhitchhiker]

In all fairness, those 2 probably had the LEAST dysfunctional marriage of the Olympians.

[@geekgirl_luv4262]

@@lyokianhitchhikerThere is not a single healthy relationship in Greek mythology. Persephone and Hades probably comes the closest out of any of them. And their relationship is much less fucked than Zeus and Hera’s, which resulted from him literally just raping her, as opposed to Persephone and Hades, which was technically an arranged marriage, and, if you take out the part about him grabbing her to take her to the underworld, not that much worse than how most actual marriages at the time happened.

[@AllMightyLordOfClams]

Especially because Persephone was literally canonically a child in the original myth. If you actually read the myth, there is no charitable interpretation of hades actions. There is no version of this story in which Persephone (canonical child) was a consenting party in the act. So it boggles my mind that it’s such a popular “ship” in pop culture

[@thisisfine9586]

Something that might be interesting is a version of Lolita where she’s a doll. A literal children’s toy that the main character obsesses over and does the main plot with. It would remind the audience of how the man is an unreliable narrator who is trying to justify his insane actions. Then at the end when she escapes she can turn into a girl, and have the final conversation with the man. This could leave the audience wondering if this is just the main character’s hallucinations or leave audiences horrified that everything he did with the doll was actually a little girl and that’s just how he saw her until she gained her own agency and became “human”. There would have to be some other changes I think with the story to make this work but I think it would help frame the story in a visual way and also would prevent any young actress from being sexualized.

[@_se3_thru9h_9]

I remember reading Lolita back in high school and feeling utter revulsion from every line of text. This novel is a clever masterpiece, a cruel artwork.

[@RhiannonSenpai]

1:07:55 I think the 1997 Lolita movie is the reason why a lot of people that didn't read the book or people that watched the movie first and then read the book, say that Lolita was a seductress and Humbert Humbert is just a poor victim of hers.

[@gRinchY-op5vr]

Yes they missed the part where Humbert is an unreliable narrator, I hadn't read the book when I watched the 1997 film but my mum had and told me to remember this is just from his perspective (I was 7 and always finding films I was too young for). Read the book some time later anyway, but was better off going into a film adaptation with the knowledge you can't take Humberts narration at face value

[@merafirewing6591]

​@@gRinchY-op5vrlet's hope someone makes a proper adaption that invalidates the 1997 movie.

[@myquirkisfred9614]

It really wasn’t hard to tell who was or wasn’t the victim. Dolores is a child, children are not only mentally mature to understand sex and relationships, they are not responsible for dating an adult. The ADULT, who is engaging in r*pe and a relationship with a little girl, IS RESPONSIBLE 🙄

[@theotherotter]

I am shocked to discover that anyone(!) thought that a girl traped with a pedofile is somehow a love story! How can anyone interpret in this way?

[@seungminmakesmestay]

B/c they're actually a pedohile and they want to rationalize being on HH's side. I firmly believe that Nabokov unintentionally created a litmus test for pedophiles in the creation of his book. He wanted to explore his own experiences from the perspective opposite of his own and see how you could justify damaging a child like this. The people who are not pedophiles and can read the subtext between the text are rightfully horrified; and the people who read it and go "Poor HH! Truly he is a sympathetic victim to his own sexual impulses" are actually pedophiles who don't want to own up to the consequences of their evil nature and are far too quick to accept his flimsy justifications and fluffy nonsense about how she was totally into it, bro, so it's fine.

[@eleonorepb4565]

I guess some pedophiles used this to make their victims believe that nothing was weir

[@Pollicina_db]

Simple: pedophiles

[@geekgirl_luv4262]

I cannot believe the book literally starts with a character saying “This guy you’re about to read about is pure evil. Not only is he fucked up, but he’s actually so fucked up that psychologists will be studying him for decades”, after which the book goes into Humbert monologuing about how he’s a pedophile, and a bunch of people read that and collectively went “Ah yes, a perfect love story”.

[@jggouvea]

It strikes me as odd that Nabokov went out of his way to argue that Humbert was an evil man who was on his way to be tried for murder and child abuse, that the story is HIS account as a way to try excuse what he did, and have Humbert himself confess he was a murderer. Despite his clarification, people still think Humbert was a victim, Lolita was complicit and that the story is about "love", when it's about ruining the life of a young girl.

[@tazaycharla3426]

Honestly you did such a good job narrating Humbert's perspective I felt sick to my stomach several times, 10/10

[@luminousghosts]

People are so obsessed with 'hunting pedophiles' and yet the 14 y/o girl experience is absolutely getting sexualized to hell and back.

[@roxassora2706]

Yes.

[@CalemCooper7]

Honestly, the takeaways of the scene where Dolores “initiated” the first rape is not taking into account the placating nature of these abusive relationships. Humbert admits to grooming her alongside physically assaulting her before the first motel scene happens. I doubt that she had been sexually active before Humbert kidnaps her, she was probably just a normal queer kid who had an abuser justifying his actions by accusing her of “devious” acts. Odds are that in reality, Dolores was scared that her mother was NOT the one picking her up (though her mother definitely is not completely innocent with how she treated Dolores in my opinion) and this man who she has to placate with uncomfortable intimacy that a child’s brain can barely process. Suffice to say that sexual abuse survivors need their stories told, and books like Lolita need to be dissected through that lens because the way it’s trying to show how absolutely DANGEROUS people like Humbert are is a great way to contextualize the gaslighting and mental gymnastics used by these abusers and how they can convince others of their lies.

[@IamEscBoy]

honestly the worst thing to me is that all the adaptations inherently sexualise their actresses. it's the most vile thing, with an obvious solution of "just fucking animate it."

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

Animation isn't much better when it comes to that

[@IamEscBoy]

@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 if you animate it, you can adapt the story properly without sexualizing any underage actresses.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

@@IamEscBoy Or just be accurate to the book where Humbert is getting off to Lolita just existing. Contrast his narration with what's actually happening for a darkly comedic or even horrifying effect.

[@animationunlimited2958]

@@IamEscBoy The actress in the 1997 film was not underage. Just the character.

[@cyanidepancake]

@@animationunlimited2958this is false. Dominique was 14.

[@AimeeColeman]

I've tried to read it about 4 or 5 times, and I have to stop every time, because the graphic scenes are so strongly framed to be justified from the view of Humbert and for his pleasure/for the pleasure of anyone similarly inclined that it made me too nauseated. It seems crazy that people can separate what's actually happening in their minds from the framing he makes on the page.

[@erzsebetkovacs2527]

I had to stop reading American Psycho because of literal nausea.

[@Midorikonokami]

Same here. I had to read it for literature class and had to beg my lecturer to give me something else to read because I kept literally throwing up. I would rather read midnight's children a 1000 times than read this book again.

[@XSlimSxadyX]

@@erzsebetkovacs2527I stopped reading it for a while lol. The writing style in that book is like literal thoughts

[@zapazap]

​@@erzsebetkovacs2527Are you aware that American Psycho was parody?

[@denjidenji9162]

It really does show how hard Humbert tries to justify himself, how badly he wants the audience to believe him and think he's not the monster he knows he is. Nabokov is a masterful writer, and the fact that it was so difficult for you and others to get through it really just goes to show that. (Btw I'm not dissing you in case it seems like that. It's definitely not for everyone, it's such a sensitive topic)

[@corpseinthesky6111]

Nabakov’s script being 6 hrs long keeps being presented as a ridiculous idea, but one of the most famous Polish films, The Deluge, is over 5 hrs long. Just send this script over here to Eastern Europe, we can make it 😆

[@dziewiaty]

Had to double check and by my very reliable reasarch done by checking one page on Wikipedia, it seems like Tarantino was first american director to relase two parter. Seems US really is scared of long movies.

[@SilentProti]

I always felt it was for the benefit of students. I don't remember anyone brave and motivated enough to read this whole book, and it was a required reading.

[@koii55]

Using b-roll of you doing random shit is inspired. I seriously can't get over it

[@josettelachaussette]

I feel like a good adaptation of lolita would be : -You start with humbert driving to find her, from that point he tells the story from his perspective. Basically the same approach as the 2 films with lolita as a seductress etc... You live small hints that she is miserable, that something doesn t fit or make sense. -Then once he arrived to the house and see her again, he try to convince her to come with him, she tell him she won t because he destroyed her life and you show the same scenes from HER point of view. The film turn into an horror movie and you show him as the psycopath that he is. That would get the point accross : He manipulated you the viewer and you believed it because he was a charismatic monster. For next time be prepared and believe the victim.

[@Flummoxyn]

The weird thing abt the adaptations is that they intentiomally dress Dolores like an adult 9 times of 10 Humbert is very specifically attracted to primarily barely pubescent girls to the point where adult women can only be barely passable to him in the short term at times or right out disgust him There was NO reason to think that Dolores was actively dressing maturely in literally any version of it The only way I could potentially see a depiction of her dressed maturely is if; Her mother was properly dressing her in appropriate clothing, and given that Dolores was a trouble maker it would make sense to have some tomboyish clothes mixed with more proper clothes she could wear on special occasions And only then after her mothers death having her clumsily dress more mature the way tweens try and fail to do because Humbert bought them to try and hide the fact shes so young while theyre on their road trip

[@mysteriiis]

This. A proper adaption would have Humbert lusting after someone with a vibe like the youngest girl in 'Little House on the Prairie'.

[@sandysand-s1f]

I agree with you. Like the 97's version really try to make dolores as seductress. But in the book its clearly humbert like dolores or other children because they dress like a child. He even doesnt date monique (seggs worker) because she suddenly "become grown up woman" in one night.

[@sailorstarlesbian]

while watching this video i kept getting the idea that the best way for a possible movie to adapt the framing device would be an interview, maybe even a therapy session with the therapist. that way you stablish that the pov we're getting is biased and not objective. maybe the phychiatrist could intervene every now and then to correct something humbert says, to drive the point home (like humbert saying the name of a street wrong or something like that). anyways, great video!

[@DanaVMBVSDDM]

That's a great idea, really similar to what the pilot episode of "The Sopranos" did (showing Tony in therapy talking about his "job" and his "business associates" while the camera actually shows him chasing some guy in the park to beat him up). You can make Humbert look very convincing while still showing the unbridled horror of what is actually happening. And also like The Sopranos, you can make the therapist kind of "fall for it", as a stand-in for viewers who are falling for Humbert's lies, and then show the therapist's disillusionment when she realizes she's been deceived. Why is no one making this :(

[@starboispls]

It’s been exactly a year since I bought ‘Lolita’ yet I still haven’t finished it due to the fact that reading more than 3 pages at a time makes me feel physically sick. My mom on the other hand is one of the people who believe that ‘Lolita’ is a love story, she has the opening sentence memorised. I’ve debated her on this on numerous occasions, her main argument against me calling it pedophilia is that “he still loved her even when she was an adult”. Sure, Jan. Maybe she’s read it too long ago to have picked up on the horror aspect of the story, or maybe she mostly remembers Kubrick’s version (honestly it can barely be called an adaptation), but I’ll never understand how as a mother of a daughter who was Dolores’ age not that long ago, and who herself had been a tween girl once she can view this story as anything but repulsive.

[@Aster_Risk]

That is disgusting. I'm sorry that she's your mother.

[@darkstarr984]

I know, I’ve been astonished at my visceral reactions to just a description of the book.

[@no_opinion1065]

Don’t mind me I’m just looking for people who defend the “Lolita is a love story” argument in the comments.

[@starylovesyo]

Ive only found one, and hes quite the commenter, hes everywhere

[@weirdcakes304]

I remember doing a rewrite of Lolita and it’s ending involved Dolores punching Humbert in the face. Still the best I’ve written to this day.

[@auliameizahra4174]

Can i read your essay please 🙏🏼

[@geekgirl_luv4262]

If you still have it please post it somewhere, I’d love to read it

[@GaetorCreation]

honestly think the only way the novel could be adapted to a movie is trough animation and the ability to use symbolism much more abstract almost like perfect blue not just that people need to understand that the author Vladimir Nabokov was abused similar to Dolores being a victim of a disgusting person which is most likely also how he can describe the fear of Dolores so well

[@Blueeyesthewarrior]

I don’t think any film adaptation of Lolita is possible unless it is animated, because you’d have to put an actual 12 year old into the role of Delores, which would not be good for said 12 year old. Like, how will you shoot the lap scene without actually sexually abusing a child? And I don’t think that the answer is to cast Delores as an older actress because I think that her age is so integral to the story. She’s so young and unable to consent to this middle-aged man who is lusting after her and willing to drug her to assault her in her sleep. An animated film would allow a viewer to get a sense of fiction as well. It’s hard to argue that Humbert is an unreliable narrator when he’s not narrating and is an actual human being doing things on the screen. An animated version would give the viewer some level of distance and allow them to see it for the unreliable narration it is.

[@theirnknight]

If I was going to direct it, I'd try not to have Lo in shot for any of those sort of shots, and the actress wouldn't be present. Obviously not an easy thing to do but with clever cinematography I think it could work and tie into how she has her agency removed.

[@mmspaget]

ohhh you could also add shots of real life humbert when he is directly talking to the reader. i think that juxtaposition would work really well. "cute" cartoon and a disgusting real life criminal

[@Kamarazalmanx]

I feel like, the interpretation of "lolita" as a love story by these directors and their constant portrayal of the main character as "an innocent party who just got corrupted" and the child as "a temptress" says a lot about their thoughts on young women, and honestly it feels a lot like they related to the main character (ie, having had perverse thoughts about underage girls) and trying to excuse his preying behavior. But of course, its an opinion lol I just feel its suspicious both times the adaptations turned that way, specially after the news that the actress who was Dolores in the first movie went through some horrible things during filming on the other side, I do think it would be better to introduce the movie with the main character in his cell "telling his story" while writing it down, and having some of his writing cutting in some of the scenes would work if done properly, this alongside some scenes where he narrates how "she was tempting him" and "how they spent happy times together" accompanied with actual scenes of her being terrified of him and molested by him.

[@mainnothing4471]

WHEN A CHILD TRIES TO FLIRT WITH YOU YOU SHUT THAT SHIT DOWN, YOU DONT ENCOURAGE IT; THEY DONT KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING BESIDES MIMICKING WHAT THEY SEE AROUND THEM 💀💀💀💀

[@Haze-xr9rc]

YES!!! I've been a camp counselor and 3 different kids professed their "love" to me, I just backed away and gently let them down with "I'm flattered, but I'm too old for you." IT'S NOT THAT HARD

[@YOSSARIAN313]

I worked as an extra in a movie. Antonio banderas was there and this high school girl who was also an extra for the movie tried to flirt with him. He laughed at her, told her she was way too young, that he was married and not remotely interested. It was brutal but it was necessary

[@cagedwyrm]

i love watching you do random things or just beat some shit up while you talk about Lolita. i wish more people put random things over their video essays more often, it’s really a vibe.

[@AmyStrikesBack]

Its kinda impressive to se that sometimes people like matt Walsh casually ""accidentally"" quote humbert and just like book, people seem to not notice how creepy It is

[@mysteriiis]

Really, eew! When did this happen?

[@AmyStrikesBack]

@@mysteriiis from my memory, there was the times he Said the legal age is arbitrary and in some places is 16, the time that he Said the most fertile age was 12, that one time about how pre-teen marriage was not bad If the parents want

[@biancachristie]

@@AmyStrikesBack I'd love it if you could find the source for that, just because it would come in handy. Ping me if you do :)

[@mysteriiis]

@@AmyStrikesBack Thanks! I'll check out further.

[@zapazap]

It fascinates me how many people fail to recognize Walsh trolling his detractors.

[@anacastrodavila2689]

I honestly think this book would be easier to adapt as an animated series (adult cartoon) that way you can draw a actual child without hurting kids and with more perspective on how terrible humbert actions were. I think we can use the novel as a source but the actual intention of the book is the important part, predators are good manipulating and that is dangerous.

[@rhymebeat1142]

The best thing about that is that not only do you not need to depict a real child being sexualized, but you don't even need a real child involved at all. Many voice actresses are talented enough to depict children of any gender.

[@allyli1718]

I think animation better captures the intentional disconnect Nabokov shows between Humbert and the audience. His writing draws attention to the fact that Humbert is using rhetorical devices and fairytale imagery- that it’s not actually the truth but a romanticized version of the truth. Similarly, animation is a medium where you’re always aware of the suspension of disbelief (or the idea that what you’re watching is fiction, and that you have to “buy in” into believing it’s reality), and therefore, in theory, if you play up the cartoony elements during Humbert’s scenes, and then keep the animation for grounded for anything outside his POV flashback, it’ll be really easy to have the same subtle ‘but that’s not right’ moments that the book does. In animation, it feels natural to have slapstick scenes of characters attacking each other or defying the laws of physics or breaking into song and have it not mean anything because you HAVE TO buy into the the logic of the cartoon universe. If you don’t, you won’t be able to accept the fact that these drawings are supposed to be people, after all. But, if we step back, it’s of course obvious that the characters can’t literally survive death or fights unscathed or break into spontaneous singing/dancing without rehearsal. There are tons of examples of people squabbling online about “whether or not the tsundere character was literally hitting them with a giant stick in-universe or if it’s just a metaphorical slapstick gag” or “whether or not the green lightning screen effects are just for the audience’s benefit to show a power up or if the characters are actually seeing the effects in-universe.” So while we buy it while inside the story universe, it’s VERY CLEARLY not literally true the way the animation portrays it. For a Lolita adaptation to take advantage of this, you just need a framing device of some sort where the characters go “he’s insane. Look at how he talks about musical numbers that are impossible or nosebleeds that spray up to 6 ft away,” and you prime the audience to understand that the cartoony elements are not true outside of Humbert’s universe and just a part of his imagery. And yet, since we buy into the cartoon for the suspension of disbelief, it’ll make sense within his universe, and we’ll trust him until we think about it later with the framing device in mind, keeping the “deceptive” nature of the original book in tact. I think film is harder to deal with because the language of film is a lot more invisible? Like the male gaze is already the norm in film, so it’s a lot harder to notice when it’s being intentionally used. Like, if you’re not being explicitly told that it’s a romanticization, you’ll just take what’s happening on screen as fact because ‘what else do you have to trust?’ Which is why a lot of the answers in the comments require a Lolita POV to contrast against Humbert’s to work. Reading requires work on the reader’s part to imagine what’s going on, so with the psychiatrist intro telling us that everything is from a psycho’s account at the beginning of the novel, when the reader tries to imagine Humbert’s events, they realize how gross it is to imagine from the perspective of a child predator. With film, that’s not really a thing because people don’t do the work of imagining the real events inside a film, the film IS the real events. There’s less of a disconnect, making things much easier to take at face value unless you try hard at meta Lynchian Nolan film techniques or whatever. Anyways, the male gaze is still a problem in animation though, but I feel like if you make it ridiculous enough of a cartoon, it’ll highlight his sort of ridiculous “it’s not a big deal but it actually is a big deal” framing of the situation. Like, do the whole 6 ft nosebleed trope to show arousal, have those sparkly shojo roses overlay when he looks at her. Make her character design look like a caricature of a loli while the rest of the characters look grounded. No Game No Life (a terrible creepy show I watched as a child) did this really obviously where a love interest gets this “love-o-vision” where whenever she looks at the main character, her vision suddenly gets inundated with all the romance animation tropes. Another similar thing is Pyro from TF2, where in all their animations, they see rainbow sunshine candy land from their POV, and outside their POV they’re an arsonist killing people. I think with that level of absurdity, it’ll make things clear enough for the audience to imagine what’s going on underneath the glitter and roses.

[@anacastrodavila2689]

@@allyli1718 I was thinking a little bit about Bojack horseman, I know Humbert did much worse things. But Bojack almost had sex with a 16 year old girl when he was 50. But in that series we as an audience were simpathetic towards him, but as time passes by we saw how terrible he was, so I think with good writers we can see this book adapted tastefully as an animated series.

[@Strawberry_Cubes]

It’s like. With lyne’s lolita I understand that it wasn’t intentionally trying to do so but it fits in a lot with this literal male gaze camera lens, the whole point is he’s over sexualizing a child when she’s doing innocent things But when you do all these angles like zooming into her feet and body it makes the audience go “well he’s not sexualizing as all the camera does is sexualize her”. If it was just wideshots of her doing seemingly normal things at a far away angle (like the camera is hiding and creeping) I think it would have gave a better idea of what the director was trying to say whilst also not appealing to the male gaze.

[@Strawberry_Cubes]

Also A lot of these movies sexualize Dolores and it feels fucking creepy. Also they tend to throw more evidence that humbert is “not as guilty” because I’m assuming their tryinf not to make him sound like a mustache twirling villain the problem is when you remove his behavior’s like testing the sleeping pills to drug Dolores and it really feels like their almost justifying what humbert is like “oh my goddd she came onto me I’m not evil!!!” Like No

[@FreshlinoSanchez]

​@Strawberry_Cubes literally even the cover art is nasty

[@camchem]

I remember just reading the plot summary on Wikipedia once, and then reading the reviews saying it was a “love story” and being so confused. Just from reading the plot outline alone, I knew that it wasn’t a damn love story lol

[@MinisDunyasi5]

Even on the back of the book it says Lolita isn’t a love story. Its a tragedy.

[@FTZPLTC]

Stanley Kubrick's Lolita is going to be my new go-to for when people misuse the phrase "the death of the author". There's finding unintended interpretations of a text, and then there's straight-up artistic perjury.

[@JeantheSecond]

The only director I could see doing an adaptation of Lolita would the director of Mysterious Skin because he handled the child sexual abuse in the movie with the empathy and care it requires. He made a compelling movie I never want to see again, which I think is the response such a movie should evoke. He filmed the scenes with the child actors in way that protected them from the adult themes, though I think the child actors were protected from the public response by the fact the film was a very indie movie, not seen by most people, so that would still be a concern for whoever the actor playing Dolores. The lead character in Mysterious Skin is also not a perfect victim, like Dolores. He’s a willing participant in the abuse because of the grooming and his vulnerability to receiving attention from the perpetrator. Because of our society, it’s harder to portray a female imperfect victim, but it was so well done in Mysterious Skin, maybe the director could manage it.

[@seungminmakesmestay]

The book also has different perspectives on the abuse, unlike Lolita, so it's a little easier to see how fucked up it was versus having to put on your thinking cap a bit more with Lolita.

[@misssampo]

Gregg Araki did Mysterious Skin!

[@JeantheSecond]

@@misssampo I admit I was feeling too lazy to look up the director’s name. Thank you for providing it.

[@ninjadolphin01]

Man even if humberts narrative is reliable he talks about Dolores crying herself to sleep every night and toward the end him desribing himself as a "pentapod monster", he says he's bad.

[@Algorithmicgeneratedwordsalad]

The point of the novel is how narcissistic abusers justify their behavior and oftentimes put the blame on their victims

[@Algorithmicgeneratedwordsalad]

Also the whole point of calling her Lolita was to remove her identity and assign her a new one and therefore removing her agency while creating an entire personality and assigning traits to her that he can later blame on her

[@christianvalentine2724]

i never watched the first one but i watched the one with jeremy irons. i don't like how they made humbert look like an active abuser only when he's become abusive physically, slapping her across the face etc, really plays into a dangerous stereotype that the abuse that isn't obvious isn't abuse at all, if it's a gentle touch and not a beating then it's not an abuse at all.

[@your_dad_on_vacation]

This reminds me of how the Hades and Persephone myth has been changed. Instead of Hades stealing Persephone and Demeter looking for her like a caring mother, Demeter is now demonized for "tearing them apart" and is portrayed as a strict mother

[@bellaknightR597]

There are multiple versions of every Greek myth since people did really write things down when these stories were originally told, the myth changes depending on where you are, it probably wasn't changed, it was probably just an alternate version. Some versions are just more popular and thus more widely accepted than others. Like the Medusa myth, in one the transformation was a punishment in another its a gift. The "it's punishment" one is more accepted because Athena helped kill Medusa which goes against the "it's a gift" version

[@ionlyemergeafterdark]

I looked up Dante and Beatrice on Wikipedia. It says that Dante met Beatrice when they were both 9 years old. That makes them the same age.