The Problem With Long Turns In Commander! | MTGGoldfish Commander MTG React | EDH Discussion

[@michaelcollins4534]

If you can't play really really fast, unsleeve that superfriends deck. Thank you for listening to my ted talk

[@malachicook3321]

Listen man if you take 3 turn back to back it’s gonna take 20 minutes

[@michaelcollins4534]

@@malachicook3321 and you had better win by the end of the second turn

[@Cybertech134]

@@malachicook3321 So, don't take 3 turns back to back, 5head

[@vittoriosavian9964]

Just because you have the attention span of a goldfish doesnt mean that you get to dictate what others play. Let people play what they want. Sometimes the boardstate is messy, sometimes hard decisions are to be made, sometimes other things happen. If you are fast when playing superfriends, congratulation, you won the nobel prize. Let people play at their own speed. ( this doesnt apply to people that are playing at clash of clans during our match)

[@Cybertech134]

@@vittoriosavian9964 Found the obnoxious superfriends player.

[@matthewbell4897]

Arcane denial is pushed by the nitpicking nerds as better than counterspell because in a 4 player game, instead of putting 2 plays 1 card ahead (the players who aren’t involved) it only puts one person 1 card ahead (the person you are countering)

[@Nightwing22444]

I think it’s pushed because a causal counterspell. It’s not the best but it’s easy to cast and hits everything. Plus in commander giving 1 player 2 cards isn’t usually going to set you back, especially after countering their spell.

[@GreatWhiteElf]

@@Nightwing22444 yeah, a hard counter that hits any spell for 1U. There's very few cards like that

[@radicard5193]

Golgariguy said it best. If you treat all your opponents as 1 collective opponent, the card disadvantage of Arcane Denial is better than for other counterspells

[@hunterbowman98]

As an enjoyer of Ruby storm in modern, if you're going to play a deck like storm, you've got to know your lines. Practice for almost any situation so you can make your turn as quick and efficient as possible.

[@claypidgeon2808]

We have a player in our group that only borrows decks from everyone else. This leads to him taking 20 minutes a turn just to read the cards... It's turn 2 and you're using a precon. What decisions do you have to make aside from playing a land and a rock?!

[@KenshinKura]

Me and a guy at my lgs just wanted to quickly test out some deck changes before the weekend when everyone else was playing, I played Pirates, he just bought and upgraded the izzet thunder junction commander. He pretty much took 10 minute turns comboing spells and effects then passing the turn to me and I had to tell him point blank "Look, I've drawn 5 lands, and you've done nothing the past few turns, my field is empty and you have enough power on the board to kill me twice. You either do something to finish the game or I'm scooping."

[@claypidgeon2808]

Winning and losing doesn't matter in commander, it's a casual format after all. What's most important is the flow of the game. Anything that repeatedly disrupts the flow of play should be discouraged. It might be cool for you to sit there for 15 minutes brainstorming, trying to figure out the most optimal line to win the game, but everyone else sitting at the table are dying inside.

[@GreatWhiteElf]

@@claypidgeon2808 highly agree!

[@jekfosburg]

While you are mostly right, winning and losing does play an integral role since it is usually how the game ends. At some point, someone has to be on top. That’s just the nature of Magic as a game. But yes, unless everyone has agreed that you’re playing to win at any cost (including taking your time to find the best line of play), the flow of a game matters to make sure everyone has fun.

[@jacobd1984]

In 20 years playing Magic, I’ve played in tournaments on maybe ~6 occasions. So I’ve played almost exclusively casually. It’s not the case that winning and losing don’t matter to casual players. Obviously they aren’t as focused on it, but if it didn’t matter, casual games wouldn’t almost invariably have as their natural endpoint one player winning.

[@anactualanimal]

*sweat sweat, shuffle shuffle * no response

[@Cybertech134]

@@jekfosburg "At some point, someone has to be on top" is precisely why the focus should be on fun rather than winning. There's gonna be a winner no matter what.

[@MackDaddyHart]

I've always wanted to do a Wizard Fight Club deck. Something that combined the Wizard archetype of "whenever you cast" with the combination of fight/bite spells to create, what is essentially, "Muscle Wizard Casts Fist". I've gone through A LOT of deck ideas and commanders and trying to figure out how to turn tiny, little wizards into removal machines. And then Nadu was revealed and I knew I had found it. It was the exact kind of value engine the idea needed to keep the jank-ass idea viable. I went to moxfield and created the deck blindly and playtested....and realized this was not okay. I went as far as removing Shuko and Lightning Greaves from the decklist to curtail the cancerous play pattern I had noticed. That didn't work. Nadu can't not have long turns once you get some pieces on the board or one mana fight/bite spells in hand. *And then* I started reading the discourse around Nadu and noticed the immense displeasure the community had. I already had a feeling the commander was kinda toxic, but my eyes were opened to just how nasty it actually was and how his play pattern affected those around him. Now, my friends don't care about the perception of the card, but I never built it anyways because of the very topic of this video: I'd be playing solitaire. My Turn. Their turns. Every turn would be about me and Nadu and a dozen triggers and I didn't want that. I play to win, but I don't try to win at any cost. Nadu's cost of playtime was too rich for my blood. I ALSO HAVE FRIENDS WHO TAKE FOREVER ON TURNS AND IT DRIVES ME NUTS. So I'm very familiar with this topic and appreciated the discourse.

[@DDDHunter]

what you actually want is Blanka, Ferocious Friend

[@OwnedByTheState]

This is one of my biggest gripes about the EDH format. Even in the really early days when I was a novice player I always made it a point to be thinking about what my game actions might be during my turn before it becomes my turn. Some people really want to sit there and think through multiple lines of play and assess the pros and cons of each one as if we're in a tournament or something when we're just playing casually. And then there's that other guy that probably just burned one that has to re-examine the entire board when it becomes his turn as if he just appeared there, rather than paying attention to new permanents as they come out.

[@Rouricht]

We play with a multiplayer chess clock. When you run out of time you die. xD

[@CardboardWarriorJeppy]

Yeah I concede when a storm takes like 5+ minutes. When I recognize a storm deck I don’t play at that table. Nothing against storm I just value my time.

[@tyeklund7221]

I hate playing a storm deck against someone who doesn't know their lines. I have a Veyran list that I can turn though half my deck in 3 minutes before getting my wincon. The only thing that slows me down is when I have to wait for priority because someone has counterspell up. If you just let me go it'll go fast, but if I have to wait 10 seconds after every spell for someone to decide if they will counter it or not then it will take forever

[@maximillianhallett3055]

Would you consider yourself casual?

[@CardboardWarriorJeppy]

@@maximillianhallett3055 yeah. I tried out CEDH and it wasn’t for me.

[@atomwyrm541]

I was playing last night and one of the player’s turns were taking so long that I was able to finish TWO matches of mtg arena before he finished his turn. I was tapped out and had no interaction, he was durdling with token stuff and I was still paying attention to the commander game; arena was kinda just muscle memory fidgeting and to prove a point.

[@ZeDoGiCa]

one big way to help make this less of a problem is to just look at the cards in your hand when its not your turn. most slow players i end up at tables with A: just have their hand on the table unless its their turn. and B: usually AREN'T storm/combo/izzet players, and are taking MINUTES to make 1-4 game actions per turn.

[@donb7519]

Arcane denial is seen as amazing because you wont be down a card after countering compare to your other 2 opponents

[@MrSweetiebear95]

My long turns are usually either my winning turn or my scrambling to not lose turn. But i also play a ton of interaction, so I pay a lot of attention and am ready to go on my turn.

[@jessianderson3959]

Oh I would be pumped to hear about how uniform your building has become.

[@iceghost27]

The most common time sink in my playgroups seems to be fetching. We all play with all the fetches, and some of us many tutors, but some people are just faster at shuffling than others due to anatomy of our hands.

[@JamesGeiger23]

I can respect and agree with some of the sentiments of this video. I absolutely hate seeing people looking at their phones or go take a smoke during a game because I believe you should focus on the game. I agree on knowing your deck and having a general idea of what are you doing. Sometimes though people might have lost or misplaced their cards or maybe a whole deck and have to borrow something. My philosophy is that commander games are going to take longer, that's just the way it is. People like to mention all the social contracts and such that you sign up for when you play but nobody wants to seem to address that a longer game is also part of what you are signing up for. The more people there are, the longer it will take unless there are teams for example. So when you start up a pod with three other people you shouldn't be surprised. For the people who want quicker games they have a plethora of options. They can find a playgroup that has likeminded people, they can opt for teams like 2HG, or they can play 1v1 60 card. I don't mind people taking a bit longer as long as they aren't being obnoxious. Sure, the nondeterministic storm stuff is understandably disliked but this easily fixed by the storm player saying what they're going to do, and ask if the table has any responses. It's not necessary to have them do every single action step by step unless you think they are going to cheat for the most part. There is always a way to make things quicker and generally speaking game speed depends on an individual level.

[@VvVLuffyM2]

Arcane denial is a general counterspell for 1U. Not a lot of counters that hit all spells that that value. Especially in more casual, creature heavy decks.

[@tiggusman]

I use to have a superfriends deck called "SuperSitters" that the commander was child of alara, and would say Alara really needed a night out so she called the gatewatch to come watch her kid. If I ever had to many planeswalkers out I would bring out child and use someones ability to kill it to wipe the board. The gatewatch are terrible baby sitters.

[@MarioJPC]

About the lack of win conditions, I stumbled today on Play on M: Arena with a 4 colour control, grinding absolutly, their Wincon was put dozens of 2/2 and 4/4s, but they were at 2 life, and I had lethal with a 2/2 busted with counters +1/+1 and trample, and the Ram through kill it after all the absurd sweepboards and removal. Again, the social factors are the hardest part, but the decks should be made with the thought about being a game with other people.

[@nolanhartwick7184]

Arcane denial is the second best 2 cmc counterspell after mana drain. It is relatively easy to cast, counters anything, and also mostly neutralizes the card disadvantage of interation spells. All while offering politics potential and extra utility in sometimes countering your own spells to act as efficient card draw. It is much stronger than classic counterspell.

[@chicco5033]

No it's not, opponent has drawn Thoracle + demonic consult off of your counter and you haven't one anymore

[@BeadyAbiter]

Lol sure cause i drew a stiffle when they draw the thoracle and consultation ​@chicco5033

[@launchpadmcquack24]

Regarding arcane denial, I like it because it has good optics. Getting a spell countered feels bad, but drawing 2 in exchange lessens the blow. It's a way to say "sorry I gotta do this, here's a small consolation please don't hate me"

[@stromrage100]

I once had a player with a dr who deck who did a lot and took forever to do his turn. He got two turns in a row and did nothing and killed no one and after he died the game lasted another half an hour after taking an hour already. Guy literally made the game last so long

[@halvsketchy9293]

I was a turn away from winning and was planning to catch a bus, and the guy before my next turn spent more than an hour trying to spin his wheels to see if he could prevent it. And in the end he offed himself on accident so i still won. I had to skip 2 busses

[@Shanatide]

In terms of rakdos enchantment removal I generally use feed the swarm and chaos warp or depending on how much it’s needs to remove enchantments shatter the oath and ghastly death titan or if I can loop artifacts I’ll even use meteor golem, oblivion stone and bumbleflower’s sharepot

[@CrazedSeer]

When i get on my phone it's because everyone else is taking too long on their turns.

[@GreatWhiteElf]

@@CrazedSeer lol, yup. I'm checked out because my opponents are up on cards, lands, and permanents on board. I am already dead

[@cakimiric5034]

I find when people go on phones very disruptive. Yes it s boring to wait for someone, but I find myself then being the 1 person at the table being interested in the game and in what the guy who is slow is actually trying to do - while another person goes onto their phone and fourth one stands up from the table to go chat with others...it s super disrespectful and disruptive. If there is no patience for someone who is slower, then it s best to find fast players instead

[@tripleeyeemoji]

This is why I don’t get the boy around commander. In modern it is very rare to have the problem of people on their phones. Waiting around forever. It’s back and forth. Commander takes forever.

[@errrzarrr]

That's why me and the rest at my LGS play 99-basic lands decks only. No time to waste except when it's time to cast the commander itself.

[@Cybertech134]

Almost like there's a fundamental difference between 1v1 and 4-player social formats or something. Shocker.

[@Dornkz7]

A person in our pod had a 40 minute turn at the LGS tonight. Then lectured me when I killed us all just to end the game. I walked out.

[@burningpapersun1]

Arcane denial is a super popular edh staple. Everyone i know loves it.

[@erfarkrasnobay]

Arcane denial is 1U and draw a card, it better then UU as manawise, you often dont care what opponent will draw if you counter combo piece, and you can utilise mana from your signets/colorless mana rocks. So basicaly for commader it sometimes even better then counterspell.

[@bearrington2024]

At least with Seedborne effects, I make it simple by going "if they play a card that needs immediate interaction, Ill do so. Otherwise Ill play this draw spell. If I run out, then I will Thrasios X times" and our table will just let the player be like "I Thrasios as many times as I can on your endstep, continue"

[@eschron8448]

The Expanse banger book series, i agree. Chulayne as an example as an obnoxiously powerful commander in casual.

[@BrotherAlpha]

I think more people need to say, "If you don't respect my time, then I'm going to find another game."

[@ditzykunoichi]

i think the main appeal to counterspells like Arcane Denial is the "fairness." EDH games go long, players get burnout and salty faster, I think a lot of players either try to aim for cards with good parity if they are trying to be a more "funfair" player.

[@bretts3046]

21:45 Commanders that shouldn't be in lower-powered casual EDH games, excluding most popular cEDH commanders: Tergrid, Voja (if playing elfball, wolf tribal is fine), Urza Highlord Artificer, Llathril, Breya, Miirym (with clones), Avacyn Angel of Hope (if playing 99 wrath spells), Jhoira Weatherlight Captain (if playing artifact storm), Animar, Maelstrom Wanderer, Krark the Thumbless.

[@Pigotti94]

Commanders that take long turns: aesi and tatiyova (most landfall: draw) korvald (draws and durdles) and chulane

[@toddpacker1015]

Nadu

[@bbbandito353]

I had a three player commander game that would have been one of the best games i played ruined by a player both taking too long and salting. I was playing an out of the box desert bloom and the player that ruined was playing an upgrade mothman deck. The game was back and forth we were all down below 20 health and he had almost milled out the third player. I attacked with around 6 slightly boosted elementals with omnath locus of rage on the board and trample so if half died they would most likely do lethal to him. This player then took like 25 mins deciding how to do blockers and basically took back everything twice stating "i never sayed that they were declared". He survives and i pass to the third player who has enough rad counters to mill out his deck, so after untap he uses mystical tutor to put Akroma's will to his top card as he had ample time to see it wasn't in his graveyard then he wins the game with no deck left. The Guy playing mothman lost it shouting at the player who won then exlaimed his own deck was absolute trash and would never play it again.

[@syctheofsymphogear4290]

yeah had literaly today a game where the opponent said, yeah i concede its to boring to look at your storm turn, you don`t even have a guttersnipe after hitting him with an Doublestormcount Grapeshot from 13+

[@Casual_BackPacking]

It's a 2 mana counter spell , if it's 2 mana or less for a counter spell it's really good in cammander

[@mrTjstephens1]

As the guys who do the legendary creature podcast say at a certain point you're just playing with yourself or edging.

[@brendanrobot1]

Counter spell cost two U while arcane cost one blue and one generic mana. You also replace the card. Very flexible plus 2 extra cards is nothing in a 100 card format.

[@kodyjordan6126]

This is part of the reason why I stopped playing commander and don’t very often unless it’s a high power game. My current play group play high power cards but can’t play at a high power level then will salt out because a turn takes 2 minutes or I counter a spell or have game actions in an upkeep. That’s what this video feels like, people that are good magic players feeling bad because the group isn’t as good as them and get salty about they’re playing. Of course there are certain commanders that lead to indeterminacy and those commanders if they’re being played a lot might need to be rule Zeroed (Such as Flubs or Malik).

[@joshuaturner4602]

Now I actually don't think that beating you to death with a 2/2 is bad as a wincon. But my perspective on this is as a Stax deck. If I have the lock assembled all I should have to do is demonstrate inevitability. If there is nothing you can do and my 2/2s will win the game you should just concede.

[@elblekqet]

You made a video about taking too long on turns but kept interrupting the video to take too long to get to the point. Bravo

[@malachicook3321]

I will say I have 2 decks built around the way I win is have all the turns

[@joeysmith5767]

I can't believe you haven't tried 12 crab with mockingbird yet

[@BudroThePious]

Man, I wish my D&D players had long turns because they were trying to optimize the game.

[@Casual_BackPacking]

4 way chess timer in cammander is what we need 😅

[@DerpHerper]

GOLDFISH THROUGH TABLE TOP SIMULATOR!! PLEASE!! You don't need to get your decks out, you don't need to shuffle. Just spend the time, put in the reps, cut down your time resolving triggers, and you'll never be a problem in your pod again. At least from a time standpoint. But seriously, TTS EDH tables are free, they include mana counters, they don't do any of your triggers for you so it's perfect for true practice.

[@syctheofsymphogear4290]

To the Clock, thats something i hate on Arena, sure it has it purpose, but if you play the Storm Deck and then suddenly the your Time is up and all Cards will be removed from the Stack, even better if you just had to cast 1 more or the Storm Fizzles because of auto clearance. or with the timer for each person, oh no i play storm and now my time is up, well yeah i bounced and exiled their lands and permas, and i would win next turn but i am out of time, would also be a even worse, to be the person which dropped an Armageddon, but then be phased out for ever because you have no time left and you must look at the grind of the opponents to build up a board again and maybe they can`t even do that

[@jeffreywriddlejr]

I've lost a fair number of games on Arena due to the timer during my storm turn. It'd be more manageable if you could turn animations off and things went faster.

[@DarkstarAshura]

You said rule 0 deck about Myra. Yet she and all the non-Acorn attractions are straight up legal so no rule 0 needed.

[@salemthomasmtg7415]

Urza High Lord Artificer should never be in casual, in my opinion.

[@FLTREDUX]

Urza Lord High Artificer.

[@Aaron-l3l6g]

Chess clock 50 minutes and if any player takes over 12.5 minutes they get booted.

[@Krenko-MB]

Based on your level of gesticulation... get a mic stand/holder

[@spenserroxsox]

Being distracted is one thing, but when your deck is designed to take an hour long turn to win because they are abzan aristocrats it's not even cool to see. Id much rather someone drop con sphinx, psychic corrosion, then windfall.

[@miekamariehodson1731]

Arcane denial can be splashed

[@errrzarrr]

That's why me and the rest at my LGS play 99-basic lands decks only. No time to waste except when it's time to cast the commander itself.

[@Donkeyfly169]

I play etali and Oppose this message

[@jorjor500]

Commander players complaining about….people playing magic? I get if people aren’t taking turns at a reasonable speed it can be annoying, especially if it’s early game and they’re just dragging, but as long as reasonable game actions are happening what’s the issue? Can people really not stand to wait 10-15 minutes for someone to play out what could be an exceptionally complicated turn?

[@sothisis1962]

People say arcane denial is bad. No it’s not. Counters any spell Easier to cast then counterspell Replaces it self Sure they draw a card at resolution. “They might draw a win con” No if your playing one counter spell youre probably playing more. Also, no you are countering their win con, play blue right don’t interact at all times, stuff that effects you and you’re board. Arcane is perfectly fine.. it slaps

[@dimitriid]

*cries in Nadu*

[@wellwellwelp]

Cascade Cascade 🙄

[@Cybertech134]

I actually don't care if the storm player wins or not with their combo. I still don't want to sit there and watch you take all the game actions for 10+ minutes either way.

[@Casual_BackPacking]

I hate when people take too long

[@jean-paulbascelli1078]

Who cares. Commander is wasting time anyway, so at least waste your time watching me do what I want to do :)

[@miekamariehodson1731]

Mizzix

[@z-super4782]

Ugh, my attention span is so high.

[@dondariohabibi5118]

I thought commander was a casual format, alot of influencing these days from all youtubers telling other people what to do lmao

[@Cybertech134]

Casual doesn't mean haphazardly doing whatever you want.

[@retekretekretek]

If you don't enjoy the games find a new playgroup that more matches your pace, simple as.

[@louis-alexandresamson1002]

Ugin

[@Zakharon]

Another day, another negative MTG video from the community complaining about literally anything, it is so tiring, do positive videos just not bring in enough clicks?

[@GreatWhiteElf]

Go watch the Play to win podcast. They're great, and very positive. It almost entirely cEDH content

[@chicco5033]

​@@GreatWhiteElf It's almost like casuals are crybabies that would rule 0 anything they don't like or don't understand.

[@pierre220199]

​@@chicco5033 The format is build like that, because it was think for being played with friends not with strangers in your lgs. It's always about perspective, if you can play the deck fast, storm as much as you want.

[@GreatWhiteElf]

@@chicco5033 I'm an extremely casual player, most of my decks are at or below precon power levels. I just like their podcast, I would never play cEDH myself

[@lomalindasmogcheck1]

1. Everyone likes taking big turns 2. People talking non in-game stuff to players 3. No one knows what too long is. Blame wotc design? Everything is mostly tolerable. Keep it as relevant to the immediate game. Brevity needs to be encouraged. Learn your deck well! Ask for help. I enjoy helping my opponent defeat me lol. Several actions vs few big resolutions?

[@jones94122]

I can't stand Tomer! Basically quit watching mtg goldfish commander content because I couldn't stand to listen to that guy

[@Cybertech134]

He's actually the only one I can stand. Richard's voice is annoying and take a shot every time he says "riiight? 😂", Crim always has the worst takes I've ever heard and makes his entire personality being the most unpleasant person in the room, and Seth talks like he's always narrating some absurd story to a room of 5-year olds.