The Problem with TPI Injection. Two Identical Bikes, Two Completely Different Reviews??

[@mschumaker1]

The best part of these videos, aside from the awesome knowledge and riding tips, is how much excitement and enthusiasm Rich has

[@sneaky98gt]

Rich, you're killing it. Best hard enduro channel on KZbin. You cut through the BS and tell it like it is better than anyone else, and your enthusiasm is unmatched. Keep on keeping on, man!

[@WASemiHardEnduro]

Did you verify the power-valve and air screw settings? I noticed there's a big difference in the immediate off-idle stall resistance depending on how my air screw is set. Power valve setting also makes a huge difference, and KTM seems to set them almost randomly from the factory.

[@andrejskamla9736]

My 2020 ktm exc 250 tpi had terribly set up power valve. The bike had a terrible flat spot and was numb as a stump

[@TheShift1313]

Was about to post the same thing. The kreft power dial is a nice add on once you have whatever spring you want to run in there.

[@justinawingo]

Agree - my bike felt like it wanted to stall consistently prior to the idle screw mod. That mod alone made my bike sooooo much better. I haven’t touched the PV much. I’m pretty happy with the setting from the factory.

[@apostate4apostate494]

@@justinawingo did you turn it in or out?

[@justinawingo]

@@apostate4apostate494air bypass screw is .5turm out from all the way in.

[@NaturallyCaffeinated]

That was a really good comparison between two of the same bikes but two different riders (style). Makes sense and as you have stated, "ride what you have and work with what you've got!"

[@robmccauley1073]

Great video. looked at a 21 GAS GAS today but just cant pull the trigger. My YZ250X is just such an amazing machine cant leave the Blu Cru . You could ride 5 different 250X and they will all run the same. No TPI for me.

[@pacwestenduroriders7911]

You are becoming the best KZbin channel for content, keep it up and thank you!

[@ZSharkPH]

I wish you would have mentioned.. but i suspect the suspension settings were slightly different on both bikes? And different tires? That would make a big difference.

[@muppets_inc]

Yes, a rundown on other changes and customisation between the two guys would have been interesting.

[@boydlotzien8362]

Awesome video Rich 👍. It was cool to see your excitement on this! KTM relies on exactly what you just proved. If 2 identical bikes feel different to 2 very experienced riders imagine how different they feel when you remove that experience and change the looks of the machine 🤔. Truly enjoy your content, honestly, and enthusiasm! Keep up the great work brother !!

[@Hobblecreekkid]

You'd be shocked if you knew when John bought his first bike.

[@EverySingleSunday]

Great video. I have my bike sitting in my garage and I have not even started it yet. Makes me wonder

[@DmitriyAdv]

Let’s address the actual important thing here - what does your dog think of the GasGas?

[@jamesal0]

Dog hates it, he's old school carb and kyb sort of dog

[@DmitriyAdv]

@@jamesal0 Is that where the saying "can't teach an old dog new tricks" comes from? :D

[@IRCTireUSAMoto]

He's just like me, anything with two wheels and he's stoked 100%!

[@DiDoSvK]

Different powervalve settings, ktm sets them randomly on all bikes. You need to set them correctly by the manual or to 5500rpm

[@Crazystuffyousee]

Most of the differences in running conditions are going to be based on 1) variances in factory PV preload setting 2) how the air bypass screw is set and 3) fuel injectors variances as they're not flow match tested at the factory. Some flow more than others... Other than that, the ignition map can be different if the harness plug is connected or not, and if the ECU's have the identical mapping.

[@markgray3855]

I bet crank case pressure sensors are all different, especially just off idle like different needle sizes in a carb. I have 3 CCPS coming from China to test and replace my failed one that I swapped with the baro one.

[@Crazystuffyousee]

@@markgray3855 - True but a Bluetooth diagnostic reader plugged into the dongle should be able to tell you whether or not those ccps's are reading correctly.

[@WASemiHardEnduro]

@@Crazystuffyousee Not necessarily. You’ll see a calculated value not a direct read off the sensor. Also, bad sensors are indistinguishable in bench testing so it’s more likely that they lose transient response (or something like that)

[@Crazystuffyousee]

@@WASemiHardEnduro - Their values should both be zero when the engine is not running and you can then test them by adding external pressure to verify their function. At least that would be how I would test both pressure sensors on the bike...

[@WASemiHardEnduro]

@@Crazystuffyousee That's not how the sensor works. It gets a +5v signal from the ECU, and depending on the pressure it senses, outputs a signal anywhere from 0v to 5v depending on its effective range (like 0bar to +2bar). At ambient, my sensor's output is 2.3v. The ECU translates this to a pressure. The difference between a good and bad CCPS is basically undetectable on the bench, which leads us to think there's something else going on. Lots of talk and testing being done on ktmtalk.

[@kevinmoore4887]

Making them run the same would be an interesting investigation. Power valve setting Air screw Air filter, oil application Exhaust plugged Break in procedure Identical maps Other???

[@laosgpsmapmidnitemapper9411]

Great Vid - thanks for getting out in that Snow !

[@steved8869]

Hi mate you don't talk about the powervalve. I have a 21 250 gasser, it was disappointing down low and mid but when the PV opened it wheelied away in the powerband. One full turn out on the PV and it's a different bike, more low more mid easier to handle hit of powerband. It's like it's 3 stage now not 2. Try it

[@ED-on8to]

Please test/ review the Beta RR 300 2020/2021 Racing! (Because than we know what we are on about! 😃)

[@maksikkarenduro9218]

Slavens mod and some fine tuning with a wide band O2 will go along way to cleaning up the power range. I’ve done quite a few.

[@jcsquared1111]

You prefer the gasgas over the Beta?

[@susumumori2553]

Hahaha, I love it. We human can accommodate a certain level of differences in characters of bikes. Some differences can be good or bad depending on the preferences, terrains, experiences, purposes, skills, and so on, I guess.

[@Evil_Morty2000]

My theory is,power difference because expansion chambers bent differently,try switching between the bikes or put brand new pipes,without dents and see if that changes things

[@danburby7936]

RICH YOU MAKE THE BEST VIDEOS IVE EVER SEEN ,AND YOU ARE AN AWESOME RIDER..GREETINGS FROM THE PHILIPPINES..IVE ALSO RIDDEN EXTENSIVELY IN UTAH ,IN MY YOUNGER DAYS WITH A HUSKY 510

[@braaap690]

What seat is John using? Interesting review!

[@ncardenas973]

Seat concepts

[@montecarl11121]

I noticed that the chain tension on the bikes are completely different. Could this make a difference? Johnny's bikes chsin looks loose and yours is quite tight.

[@biscuit3755]

Look up James Dean's (jd jetting) dynos for carb vs tpi bikes. The air/fuel is MUCH more consistent across the entire rev range on tpi.

[@HardBoiledGregADV]

Nice video. Looks like the Lake Mountains in my backyard!

[@sfade6217]

Rich, can you explain sherco clutch a tad more. I just got 21 300 and have one ride and just breaking in. There's a feeling that's different than my 19 ktm 250xc. Is more than just fade you mentioned in your sherco review? Thanks

[@jackbauer9347]

Do both bikes have the same map and are the PV's set the same?

[@CommieHunter7]

I wonder if this can come from the TPS installation. The TPS can be rotated in place, and changes the relationship between how far the butterfly opens and how much voltage the TPS is reporting to the ECU. Thus, even with the same map, you could have slight difference in the machines. My point is, there's no variance between machines that could not be identified and eliminated.

[@mathewsharp233]

Tps is not adjustable on the tpi's

[@lesford2662]

Nice one Rich .. enjoyed the vid 🤙

[@PEROTTIX]

Super interesting!! For a beginner like me it sounds a bit also as the bike does not really matter at the end. The skills a far mote important...unfortunately for me ☺️

[@RyanBoardman234s]

Only to a certain extent, they would never be able to ride the same hard enduro stuff on a kx450.

[@PEROTTIX]

@@RyanBoardman234s yes sure. It might be the usual 80-20 rule. I mean, whatever bike I ride I cannot do 80% of things and similarly a pro would have much more problems doing some stuff on a 450 but still would probably be able to do 80% of things

[@RyanBoardman234s]

Albi Per agreed

[@ED-on8to]

What do you think about the "real" twostrokes from KTM (2014, 2015, 2016)? (Could you make a review of a carbureted KTM 300 vs a TPI KTM 300?)

[@slagletoby]

My 2015 XCW has about 600 hours on it and around 10,000 miles. Lots of trophies and many many fun rides and journeys. I finally rebuilt the lower end at 550 hrs it was showing signs but did not fail. At 550 hrs I rebuilt the bottom end with new crank, bearings, seals, replaced all bearings and seals in the tranny, plus did the top-end. Nicasil coating still looked fine. Motor has minor mods including Lectron H Series Carb, V-Force 4 Reeds, head work, slightly ported head smoothed out casting flaws + polished exhaust port, FMF fatty, and Reklus Clutch (installed 2015). Clutch pack is still original. Fluids are very important, here’s my potion. Amsoil Saber at 2oz per gal (70:1) AvGas Shell Rotella T4 15/40 in the tranny I just keep replacing the body bearings, servicing the suspension, and replacing the top-end annually as maintenance. I keep the bike fresh and she’s vicious and smooth. Recently replaced all plastics, DeCal Works custom graphics, rims, chain, sprocket, and other little items. I’m not convinced a new bike is “far” better, yet.

[@Motoinc]

Iys in your HEAD. This video showed Exactly that. Cheers

[@crjmoto]

Although I'll add bikes to the stable, I'll most likely keep my carb'd 2018 ktm 250xcw forever. So simple, light, and easy to work on

[@jacquesblackburn7329]

Very interesting and I like it very much. All test I saw about the gas gas is that they are better than ktm and huqvarna. But perception and tastes of the riders plays a lot in their evaluations

[@97footballplayer]

Where do we go to learn more about in person training? Couldn’t find any info on the website.

[@IRCTireUSAMoto]

email [e-mail]

[@edog5707]

he has different fork tubes?? are these bikes 100% stock

[@edspeedbreaker2213]

What's Up, Great Video.

[@robh3267]

John's bike had black forks are those just black covers? Perception and consistency are rarely ever the same from rider to rider.

[@jasonbaugh6904]

Getting TPI is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you’re gonna get

[@NirHason]

Great video!!

[@stuartflora3781]

I’m blessed, my 300 was and is killing it straight out of dealer, wouldn’t touch it if you paid me

[@johnmichael82868]

are you at 5 mile pass?

[@ryanmcclellan6529]

Lots of things to tweak on the TPI bikes. I imagine with you could get it tuned exactly how you want it with new mapping and power valve adjustment. Idk why they would feel so different if they are both stock tho...

[@andrejskamla9736]

So far every tpi I have ridden felt different. Hard to explain. No engine mods yet they were different. One is more free rewing, other has better low end....

[@ryanmcclellan6529]

@@andrejskamla9736 Depends on how the dealer builds the bike i guess

[@andrejskamla9736]

@@ryanmcclellan6529 no definitely not. Dealers only flash a map and install bars, pegs and wheels...

[@ryanmcclellan6529]

Andrej Skamla ive heard the dealer also have to set the air screw and power valve.

[@andrejskamla9736]

@@ryanmcclellan6529 they should but they don't

[@monocogenit1]

They are both tpi? How can they be different?

[@JustinLague-kc3wd]

Wich one have the tpi bike?

[@riders.oregon4474]

Air screw?

[@Steveman61]

Cool video but doesn't make a lot of sense imo. The bikes are not identical (forks and stuff) so I'd say compare your GG TPI to a KTM TPI and a HQV TPI, that would make a lot more sense.

[@kirknelson3020]

Is Jonny really Joey? 😮

[@1MarkBevans]

So this is weird, not bad, just weird. But then we all kinda knew it by the other reviews of the power delivery on the newest, but also the older TPI bikes. OK, so what’s correct and what’s incorrect. I guess I’m perplexed why KTM ( the mother ship) make these new world class bikes so different? I mean so many “non-TPI” bike folks laugh about the overall power delivery and basic running in general so different from one bike to another, which makes so many haters of the TPI concept in general. I’m a believer and love my TE250i-TPI bike, but many friends think I’m nuts. I wish the mother ship would add some balance/consistent power delivery to their offerings....

[@jacko4483]

There is part of the reason Beta is still carbureted. I think they are seeing all this and waiting a while longer before they jump in on the 2T tpi. Get a SmartCarb. Like fuel injection without the quirkiness of electronic injection.

[@robh3267]

Soon all 2 strokes will have to use some form of TPI to meet tighter emission regulations Beta and Sherco still use carbs because it's cheaper to produce and that is the only reason why soon they will have to switch to TPI in order to sell 2 strokes and that is why Japanese manufacturers have abandoned 2 strokes because they aren't willing to invest in the technology required to meet the regulations not enough profit for them.

[@williamhogben8908]

Nice video

[@jakefalk6350]

Can’t beat the carby TX 300 have a rekluse on my 2018 one and it’s amazing may fit ohlins as Not a fan of the airforks

[@MnemicLord]

All of the TPI bikes run a bit differently, even if they are set up by the same person. For example, my 300 TPI is stronger than any of my friend's 300, and no one knows why. Even though we have a close friend who sets them up. He is an experienced mechanic and also a very good rider. But all in all, TPI bikes are the best. You can get everything you want and need from them with just the air screw mode and power valve adjustment.

[@sao007]

common guys just a little bit of tuning solve this problem..trun 1 or 2 screw and this thing fly !! :P

[@virobeast3836]

Adjust the powervalve problem solved :D

[@MulcenjeDolsina]

I believe bikes doesnt have the same software. I know my husky te300i 2021 got a new software a month ago.

[@kevinandaji]

Some dynomo numbers would be cool

[@zzxx33mh]

Rich is rich in appearance, and approach..

[@JFPalmer]

I think il stick with my sherco

[@kimojon9665]

Could be how you broke in the motors. That will make a difference in how they feel. That and your brain plays tricks on you.

[@robsonenduro3316]

weird, electronic injected bikes should not be that different... I would expect such discrepancy for carbureted bikes rather.

[@ssj_dirtcycle]

For me it’s the inconsistency in the tpi fuel mileage.... anyone else seeing that?

[@apostate4apostate494]

The bikes are actually identical and there is zero difference in the TPI bikes, this test demonstrates BIAS and why testing like this is flawed not by the bikes but by the humans doing the testing.

[@IRCTireUSAMoto]

That is exactly correct!!! I should have named it the problem with humans!!! But that wouldn't have gotten clicks!

[@dirtbikesicehockey4788]

90% rider 10% bike with 25% beer

[@unfunny2258]

maybe this is because of having different map updates on the bikes? Its hard to believe there could be that big of a difference unless ktm just has shitty QC

[@fatchance1973]

It's poor manufacturing practices. Quality mass production of any good should be a consistent, repeatable process that ends up with production runs where the 1st item off the line should be the exactly same as the millionth Item off the same run. The Devil is in the details when it comes to consistency.

[@thebraapfarm]

That was so inconclusive 😂

[@leom5028]

Can someone please explain im don't understand, is there a problem? Is it the bike, or the rider? Or what?

[@freedom7047]

Tpi is the top

[@f18a]

Good video on an interesting topic. But the whole "my bike/your bike" discussion was confusing. Which was which? It would be clearer to say "the TPI bike" and "the carbed bike." Also, the conclusion is fuzzy. Maybe that's your point? I couldn't understand the over-the-top excitement either. Maybe I'm just having a bad day...

[@WASemiHardEnduro]

They were both TPI bikes

[@pkake1319]

If you took 2 carb bikes you would get the same answers/ comparisons. No two bikes are alike.

[@tomcumby1118]

Carbed ktm husky prices gonna stay high. This shit ain't right. 4 strokes diff animal with fuel injection

[@minkusmcminkus7598]

KTM, TPI or buy someone else's bike.....not going with TPI

[@edspeedbreaker2213]

First