The Problematic 'Strong Female Character'

Emily Blunt said recently: "It’s the worst thing ever when you open a script and read the words 'strong female lead. That makes me roll my eyes - I’m already out."
/ echochamberlain

[@apophis2129]

I forget who said it but it was a great point. "We don't want strong FEMALE characters. We want strong female CHARACTERS.."

[@grizzly_manbanimation8436]

Which I’m sure means more emphasis on the character not the gender.

[@charlesajones77]

I said years ago in another comment section "Don't try to write female characters, write good characters who happen to be female".

[@revcrussell]

Even the Ancient Greeks knew that the only stories where the characters don't grow are comedies. These 'strong female characters' are literally jokes and they don't know it. Those that don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

[@wishfulthinkin3478]

That's always annoyed me; every Greek 'hero', no matter how physically strong or cunning they were, they all had a weakness. A flaw that would be their undoing. Modern heroes are written to be just utterly perfect; both physically and morally. Their 'weakness' is that society doesn't recognize how great they are. Ironically, modern heroes have more hubris than those of antiquity.

[@ShamanMcLamie]

There is another kind if story where characters don't grow and that is Tragedies. Although the whole point of a tragedy is that the character degrades instead of grow. Anakins journey in the Prequels is the opposite of Luke's in the Originals. Anakine goes from being a kind good kid to being whiny, brash and arrogant. Luke goes from being whiny brash and arrogant to a mature, good man.

[@revcrussell]

@@ShamanMcLamie Thanks, you are correct, technically a comedy requires the starting and ending conditions to be the same. I mischaracterized that to mean growth.

[@briancrawford8751]

"Those that don't know history are doomed to repeat it." Please stop posting shit like this. A kid who fails history isn't going to meet up with Joseph Stalin and think he's a great guy.

[@harbl99]

Those obliging male stunties are the unsung heroes of the Stronk Femul Crackter era. Without them, it all falls down. Huh, there might be a lesson in there somewhere.

[@jmlaw8888]

Absolutely. Its terrible when you see a stuntman obediently waiting for his "spot" in a fight scene. Its a failure directing and choreography. But when the film is nothing more than a vehicle to push the "stronk wummin" agenda its downright cringeworthy. When its an honest mistake its bad enough but when its done while trying to push blatant chauvinism its several times worse.

[@npcperson2158]

Jenifer Lawrence wrote all stories and Mythologies. She also gave birth to the Titans, music and Literature. Mere men wont understand the All-Mother's splendour.

[@Minptahhathor]

🤣

[@ep7329]

She's a Godess!

[@AuthorJenniferKrigbaum]

LOL 😂

[@larryharder4285]

To be fair, I think she has walked back that comment.

[@Xibalba_FGC]

“Strong Male Character” and “Strong Female Character” are both such warped ways to approach character writing 😭 whereas just a strong character who happens to be either gender’s alright

[@christinefraser5566]

When Gina Carano was booted from the Mandalorian, I stopped watching. She was a complete bad-ass in the fight scenes, totally believable. If I see another little, fake eye lash wearing, 100 lb female action character I know that the show is not for me. I turn it off never to go back again.

[@KeytarArgonian]

The most insane point in rings of power was when Galadriel *finally* failed at something, and it’s literally that Sauron has been standing next to her all along… and *STILL* has absolutely *ZERO* repercussions, and she just happily goes about her day like nothing happened and tells no one 😂

[@silverscorpio24]

AND goes along with his plan that she KNOWS will lead to him taking power

[@spoiler321]

there's a theory that RoP was written by AI

[@nosfonader8792]

What repercussions? His return to power and starting the War of the Ring and the Third Age is that repercussion

[@KeytarArgonian]

@@nosfonader8792 zero repercussions for her.

[@utsxslv]

I just found you tonight. This is my second video. You're an author! That explains it. You have an excellent way of painting a picture with your words. And, I'm probably showing my age but Willow was one of my favorite childhood movies. I do not plan on seeing this new series. They've ruined another one of my childhood favorites. I actually watched this on LaserDisc!

[@harryv6752]

It was because of Jennifer Lawrence that strong masculine men exist. It was because of her that Guyladriel and all super heroines exist. Heck, it was her that trained Pai Mei who then trained Beatrix. It was also her who gave birth to Bill and taught him the 5 Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique. Then had him try to kill Beatrix. Then set her on the path to kill Bill in return. All hail JL! And let no one, man or wahman, stand in your way! 🤘

[@thatkeyboardgirlsha3442]

u spoke the truth brother, but it's wo-people, not wahman. you are now condemned to a slow painful death.

[@Jus7aguy]

"I was the first female lead in an action movie"... Cynthia Rothrock says "What?" Jennifer Garner says "Come here Bitch". Angelina Jolie "Say that to my face!". Milla Jovovich: "Huh?". Uma Thurman sighs and adds her to the kill list after Bill. Michelle Yeoh, "Can someone translate that for me? I think I must have mis-heard what this white girl just said." Pam Grier "Oh no you didn't barbie girl!". Linda Hamilton laughs and pistol whips her for the sas. Sigourney Weaver just smiles and walks away, she doesn't talk to people who would french kiss a face-hugger.

[@Jus7aguy]

Also the 1910s have a big "wtf" look on their face (Being the era of silent film expression was used more than language): "During the early years of cinema in the 1900s and 1910s, men starred in action films such as westerns, but women dominated the so-called “serial” or “chapter” film genre. These were movies in which the same character appeared over several instalments released on a regular basis, with plots that were either ongoing or episodic. The story lines typically featured female leads getting into danger, getting out of danger, brandishing guns, giving chase in cars, and battling villains. The film scholar Ben Singer estimates that between 1912 and 1920, about 60 action serials with female protagonists were released, totalling around 800 episodes."

[@andrewshaughnessy5828]

@@Jus7aguy Did NOT know that! Thank you. 👍

[@reedr7142]

This comment was such a joy to read. 👏

[@michaelwittmann1973]

JL should learn more about movie history

[@jb613jb]

Cara Dune is believably bad ass, not because she's a woman, but because the actress is an actual badass, with howitzers for biceps. Cersei Lannister is a believably powerful and terrifying character because RR Martin is a great story teller and Lena Heady is a great actress. Gal Gadot is not believable as Superwoman, because she's not a good actress, is not physically imposing, and the writing is terrible. In many ways not acknowledging general male physical superiority is disservice to every great power wielding female in history. As you note, assuming that all females are perfect in all aspects reduces the struggle of the human soul which resides in the physical body of the female.

[@Rocinante158]

The first Wonder Woman was pretty okay though. At least the character was written much more likeable and flawed compared to many of the other female leads.

[@somelittlellama4186]

Cersei Lannister is terrifying because she's a moron who can blow up (heh) at any moment.

[@redsoxu571]

I think it's telling that one of the most appealing RPG protagonists, Commander Sheppard from Mass Effect, is a classic "strong" character who is effectively portrayed as either male or female. The traits that make Sheppard so terrific go beyond gender; at the same time, the nuances of the voice acting performances for each gender help preserve some of the subtleties of what typically differentiates each gender, without remotely compromising either version. It goes to show that good male and female characters are not that different, and yet at the same time contain differences that do not put one above the other.

[@randomperson8771]

Not sure you can include fem shep due to well you are able to play as male shep and they are written pretty much the same. But who in their right mind plays male shep!

[@redsoxu571]

That's kind of the idea and why I thought to cite them - they're written essentially the same way, but there is a subtle masculinity and femininity behind each respective VO performance that makes their gender more than a simple label in a profile. It goes to show that such concepts are not as far apart as they seem or necessarily expressed in word choice, and also that you can have your heroes express a gender difference while still being strong and heroic based on the universal traits that point those ways. That's how it comes across to me, anyways 🙂

[@PALADINKILLIAN-1403]

@@randomperson8771 i would since i dont like playing as female characters people like you ruined them for me Plaaying AS MeAle ShEp is WaR CrIMe you just shut up u not funny or anything let people play whatever character they like bruh

[@mrridikilis]

It rings true that Emily Blunt would have that opinion. One of my favorite films from 'recent' years is 'Sicario.' In this film Emily Blunt's character is absolutely amazing, and she's no Mary Sue. She doesn't have the physical strength to overpower the men in the movie (which reflects the actual world we live in), and that makes it more realistic. Despite her 'weakness' she shows great courage and is a wonderful character that the audience can identify with and get excited about. She's a strong female character in the real sense, not just a masculine hero in a feminine body.

[@JonasGrumby-OO]

Great to hear this from a novelists perspective.

[@heyguys7805]

Your channel should be bigger, man. You gotta play with SEO more.

[@nigelbagguley7606]

The toy company Lego has spent millions in an effort to understand the psychology of play in boys and girls, discovering a very definite difference.When boys play with a figurine they become that character taking on all attributes and powers, however when girls play with a figurine they imbue the figure with their own idealised qualities.This essential difference lies at the heart of the current issue, when a traditional writer portrays a character they imagine themselves as that character and then launch that character into the story.With modern female writers they are literally portraying an idealised image of themselves in a direct equivalent of a little girl's play.Of course today's identity politics has only magnified this problem to the point of threatening the existence of multiple IP's if not studios themselves.

[@mxvega1097]

This is all accurate. I've resolved not to get irritated by it, as there's nothing I can do except make consumer choices, and avoid what seems to be a debased cultural production environment which is at least a generation behind a lot of other countries in terms of access and opportunities for women in certain ares of economic and cultural life, namely entertainment. The problem, seems to me, is that when the first rebalancing started happening in the writers' rooms, the persuasive got in ahead of the creative, the agitators ahead of the innovators, and that led to path dependence. Basically more women writers, who didn't have the skills or self-awareness to be able to write and express character complexity, and the studios didn't call them on it. And then they grabbed the misogyny stick and whacked everyone who question their output. It's a bit like handing a team the tools to create a symphony, and you get ... Bikini Kill. There's good writing - the unsung characters in my current shortlist: the entire Arcane cast, Lorraine in Atomic Blonde, Flynne in The Peripheral. Which rather suggests that audiences shouldn't accept that Rey or Galadriel represent the inevitable.

[@tratzum]

I find that these "strong Female Characters" come off as abrasive and and not much fun to watch. Sad to say but any writer wanting to write this kind of character for female is going to have to be very carful not to impart typically male traits. On Males it is bad but on females it is straight cringe.

[@floydfanboy2948]

Rey Palpatine, the Mary Sue incarnate we all grew to hate. The downfall of Star Wars, brought on by cultural vandals.

[@chernobylshery885]

Thank you for calling her by her ACCUARATE surname. 😊

[@saint.vitus.7775]

Strong Female Characters were one of the things that initially attracted me to Game of Thrones - and i then recommended it to my wife. By the series' end though - it had transitioned into a gratuitous display of 'girl power'. And i think was one of the major factors (along with abysmal writing and a couple of show-runners who actively sabotaged their own project) which contributed to the ignominious downfall of the entire series.

[@TheQuickyouknow]

That's a reach. It was 99% writing and them trying to end the show on S8.

[@domskillet5744]

Nah that accounts for only the tiniest fraction of why the ending sucked. There is far too much terrible about the last couple seasons to go through lol

[@ZeroOmega-vg8nq]

Blame it on martin for being so damn slow to finish the series.

[@somelittlellama4186]

You should read the books when there are actually good characters and none is "strong female character".

[@saint.vitus.7775]

@@somelittlellama4186 I have read the books - and i agree - the women characters were just that - well fleshed out individual characters - not some 'girl boss' or slay queen.

[@douglasmorris8364]

Short, concise and spot on sir!

[@dronefury]

The difference between and relatable character and a idealized character is that the audience connects to a character by their struggles rather than their triumphs. When one lacks any real struggle we lose the ability to connect. John Wick is an unstoppable killing machine. But audiences don't connect with his skills as an assassin but his heartbreak over the loss or a loved one or even a beloved pet. It's seems trite to think the little things bear more weight than the grand. But what many fail to see is these little things are the anchors for a audience to latch onto a character for the ride. When a song lacks subtlety it's often viewed as disorganized noise. The same goes with writing.

[@larrydugan1441]

It is impossible to watch Hollywood slop. As soon as we see the skin color and sex of the actors the plot is predictable and boring.

[@charlesajones77]

The problem is that you can write male characters as less than perfect, or worse at something than someone else, and no one will care. But if you do this with a "strong female" character, feminists will scream bloody murder, and use this as an example of the patriarchy putting women down. But everyone has flaws and no one is better than everyone else at everything. It is absurd to write any character like this, male or female.

[@MrDiplomat180]

Pre-Season 7 Daenerys is a great example of a strong female character written well. From meek and scared to independent and fierce. A common writing error is making female characters already perfect at the start and remains that way.

[@spinlok3943]

4:00 PERFECT edit. That's what drives me crazy, so many of these "modern strong female characters" keep acting like they're the first ones to do it when its been done decades before. And not only that but it was done WAY better.

[@patrykzukowski7471]

I'm just watching Copenhagen Cowboy and this show is a perfect example of how you can write an interesting strong female lead.

[@Animaine7030]

Had to check the channel out after a recommendation from T-Shirted Historian. Just subbed.

[@woozy96]

Gina Carano's _Cara Dune_ makes Galadriel in ROP look like a third rate character.

[@FunPicard]

'Strong female character' is in principle the same as 'empowered'. We practically never talk about males being empowered, chiefly because empowerment is power gifted, not earned.

[@joshuapatrick682]

wait, you're Chuck Palahniuk? Invisible Monsters is the only book of yours I ever read and it was too jarring for me.

[@theauntofdragons]

I try to explain this to ppl and they always reply, "a woman can do whatever a man can" and I'm like THAT'S THE POINT! Give us the hero's journey! So many of these characters nowadays just start off strong and it leaves you not caring about them. You want the audience to either care or hate your character and so far, we are hating everyone of these female characters which I KNOW is not the goal. Hey, everyone connects with batman. How did they accomplish that? But I'm not a Hollywood writer. I shouldn't be coaching you on how to do your million dollar job.

[@frankberry6220]

Dear Echo, Sadly, Ms Blunt is very much in the minority. Hollywoke is filled with women who not only see nothing wrong being a Mary Sue, they'll complain if their character isn't kicking all the men around them soft. Frank.

[@nosfonader8792]

And yet the anime franchise One Punch Man does this with every checkmark people complain about with women and is a hugely successful series 😅

[@MustertheBrohirrim]

Those few images of rings of power are so fucking awful. Girl boss slay queen.

[@hattanalshutaifi4587]

I actually like and prefer strong female characters only if they smarter cooler deeper more interesting complex three-dimensional multi-layered well-developed competent relatable likable helpful entertaining intelligent charismatic well-crafted fleshed out sympathetic and multifaceted character with much stronger more brilliant well-rounded multifarious nuanced compelling well-written meaningful solid full-fledged in-depths and powerful characterizations personality motivations strengths depths layers motivations nuances vulnerabilities build-ups developments humanity emotions likability multidimensionality complexity enjoyability believability relatability likeability both excellent writings executions and balances of strengths flaws and weaknesses of characters without it those aforementioned qualities or traits they just simply a characters that is nether emotionally invested connected nor rooting for

[@randomperson8771]

Can you imagine how horrible buffy would be had the show been written in present time!. That thought pains me. That girl had some many many downs through its run hit some major lows.. required help from her friends.. The straight white old dude being her mentor. That would never fly today god forbit

[@HEAVYHONEY1]

Very successful films with strong male characters that have no character arc: James Bond. Indiana Jones. Paddington bear. Maximus (Gladiator), Marty McFly (back to the future), the Dude (the big Lebowski), Mr. Bean, Ferris Bueller, Dirty Harry, Inspector Clouseau, so your argument is invalid.

[@DilatiOnO]

Ya and there have been tons of strong male leads -- Luke, Kyle Reese, etc.

[@fermentedcinema4892]

Just discovered this channel, and it is racing up there with my top favorites!

[@spoiler321]

this is the best summarization I've come across on the subject

[@ayiza8511]

Aliens!!!! Jennifer Lawrence

[@Wolcik3000]

first time ever strong female lead

[@zachpowell8653]

Love your videos. Thanks for all the hard work.

[@brothatisfunny]

Will you do a video on Henry Cavill? I would love to hear your take

[@stranger6822]

I suppose the conclusion is: hardship and struggle are relatable, even moreso when they're self-inflicted. Remove those to your detriment.

[@nosfonader8792]

Leave the overpowered lead to the men, nobody ever complains there. Keep women a few notches lower and you might be doing a good job. Women are much weaker so keep them out of fights. Galadriel should have not been part of the cave troll fight and just let the male elves handle it. She's not even supposed to be a fighter anyway. Make more intellectual based heroines like Eve from The Mummy. She's not overpowering mummy soldiers and that's ok. Or like a hacker character like Ramsey in Fast and the Furious series. There is a reason why Wanda is much more liked (until recently) than Carol Danvers is. People didn't even mind that Wanda almost bested Thanos 1v1.

[@galethsaldor8293]

Kit from Willow was unbelievably unlikeable to the point that i wondered if its writer's or actually her real personality.

[@deathdog1392]

The strongest female irl is a good, nurturing mother. Feminists writers will never write that, so the "Strong Female Character" will come off as bs cause it is.

[@junkyyard2273]

mothers are an example

[@varshini6904]

A strong female is a strong female. She can be a strong mother or a strong warrior or both. She's strong but feminine. A woman need not be man-like to be a strong woman. She can love her man, depend on him, want him to protect her and still be strong.

[@junkyyard2273]

​@@varshini6904 yeah, not all strong women have to be or are mothers.

[@VincentPaterno-hs2fv]

I've written a sci-fi romantic comedy where the heroine is an abused, barren woman in her late 30s who, through a bizarre machine, is accidentally tripled in size (more than 16 feet tall). Does she use her sudden gigantic stature to avenge those who wronged her? Not really, although she manages to conquer her foes without employing violence. Since she's now roughly at the same proportion to adults that a mother is to an infant or toddler, she uses her size to protect people she cares about, including falling in love with the inventor whose mishap made her big (she views him as a surrogate child and he accepts his status, though the relationship is non-Oedipal) . She's thrilled to have finally been able to employ her maternal qualities... even if she had to grow to do it. (Remember, in the eyes of babies, all mothers are giants.)

[@ikept_the_jethryk2421]

Tbh House Of The Dragon has way too much childbirth and female self-doubt

[@TheMasterfulcreator]

"it often involves fight scenes with incredibly obliging stunt men and rapid fire edits that don't look credible" i have thought this over and over again. when it looks so fake it ends up being patronizing to the women in my view. i've seen cases of extraordinarily well crafted fight scenes that truly make it seem like a woman over powers a larger man and it's so raw and satisfying.

[@frankvandorp2059]

A major problem is that writers in Hollywood don't get where they are due to any talent or skill. Instead, if you want to land a job in Hollywood, all you have to do is be born into a family of millionaires who either already work in Hollywood, who have contacts in Hollywood, or who are rich enough to send their kids to extremely high-end schools and universities, where Hollywood recruits its "talent" out of a delusional idea that colleges that demand high tuition will produce more skilled students. So the stories are being written by extremely rich and entitled yet talentless children, who are drawn to woke ideologies because it enables them to feel like they're victims and are fighting AGAINST the dominant culture, as opposed to them BEING the dominant culture. This usually results in cardboard cutout self inserts who exist solely for the writer's wish fulfillment, that no one else likes except for professional critics, who are coming from the exact same privileged, woke backgrounds and have identical opinions as these writers, and who therefore are drawn to the same wish fulfillment tropes.

[@LovettEverAfter]

They have lost the sight of what a strong female character means. This is the loss of all security and safety.

[@isakaldazwulfazizsunus7564]

I'm dying on the hill that there's nothing wrong with Westworld.

[@alanquinn9845]

We can admire a character regardless of their strength. Not much to go on if the character is perfect.

[@scotter23]

There are several video essays on this topic but none more incredible and concise as this.

[@blarkon]

Perhaps women's storytelling structures are different from men's? When we look back at millennia of stories (at least the ones that were good enough to stick around) The "Hero's Journey" / Campbell stuff we see certain structures and arcs for characters. Almost all the authors were men and the audience was probably primarily blokes as well. The stories stuck around and we still tell them so something was working. I've heard it said that men like aspirational characters and women like relatable ones. What if all this faffing about with overpowered non developing female characters is those writers "exploring" the idea (I'm being generous and trying to be sympathetic) that instead of the hero's journey being a universal, it's more something that skews towards something the blokes like and that maybe there is something different that the women want. Because a lot of these women writers seem to operate under the assumption that what their audience wants is a fully formed perfect being from the start. It certainly doesn't work for a male audience - but is it working for a female one (it would be interesting to look at successful non-SF/Fantasy works written by women for a female audience to see which arcs the characters take) This might resonate with the different male and female journeys through life. Men have to build themselves up to be successful in society (so those stories resonate). Women (as judged by society) are at their peak the moment they reach adulthood because (as judged by society) that's when they are most desirable.

[@Theguywhoasked460]

Good point but is seems not to work. Disney lost 123 billion dollars because of the failure of these movies. There are more Women as Men on this Planet therefore most women dont like this princip too.

[@AegisAuras]

I think one of the aspects that bother me the most is how femininity isn’t the concept being empowered, masculinity is. Being physically dominant, decisive, confident, mechanically inclined, are all masculine aspects. They aren’t empowering femininity. They are striping female characters of their femininity, making them masculine, then overpowering them.

[@minamina6112]

was todays yrs old when confidence was strictly a masculine aspect

[@AegisAuras]

@@minamina6112 yes, confidence is an aspect of the masculine side of the psyche. It’s part of the male actualizer archetype, as opposed to the female potentiator archetype. It’s a quality of the masculine root chakra, for those familiar with the chakra system narratives. Both genders possess varying degrees of each aspect, of course, but certain aspects come easier each.

[@samspade2657]

what movie is this from 3:08

[@JairBPena]

I get the point but that you are making but you keep showing a clip from Westworld S3 when Tessa Thompson character chokes a man but is she a robot in that scene, wouldn´t make sense that an android is stronger than any man?

[@John-fk2ky]

Depends on how the android is designed. I can easily break most existing models of human-shaped robots, and I’m not even that strong. That’s more of a world building/storytelling question for why an android might be stronger than a human. Nothing says it must be. I think the real problem with the image is that we see similar images without the excuse of dealing with a robot, and lacking reminders that she is a robot doesn’t help. Switch the robot out for a real human in the same situation, and the woman would be the one that got choked to death.

[@stanleyklein524]

Bravo.

[@mjelves]

A-freakin-MEN

[@danielb.3743]

Abby is quite literally a strong female character

[@PunksterOS]

This comment is for the end credits.

[@gianthand8130]

Ok

[@fmc291]

Pam Grier is the first female action star. Coffy

[@SubFlow22]

Not a popular opinion, but House of the Dragon was an estrogen-soaked soap opera that only seem good by comparison to all the trash that's been produced this year.

[@petrairene]

Though in the defence of Galadriel, she is an immortal elf and really really old. She has had millenia to learn all about fighting and strategy.

[@verindictus3639]

The real Galadriel, however, was SO powerful, she was well beyond the need for a sword. RoP writers think they made their version powerful by making her an unbeatable swordswoman, but in truth they made her WEAKER.

[@petrairene]

@@verindictus3639 True.

[@User-be8sw]

Rey is not a Mary Sue.

[@dickswanee9501]

Where can we find your work?

[@bendover04me]

Maybe not a traditional heroine but I find Kim Wexler as a strong female lead.

[@buttscarlton1490]

Lol what?? She says "we were told" as in by a studio head, and you're saying SHE said "blah-blah-blah". Like dude I enjoy a lot of your content but which audience are you even shilling for?