Trope Talk: Romantic Subplots

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It's a subplot! It's romantic! It's one of the hardest things to write convincingly, despite being one of the most relatable experiences ever to be put to fiction! What the heck is up with that? And am I at all qualified to speak on the subject with any degree of authority? (No!)
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[@yaz9292]

tip from my professor: if they have to kiss for you to know that they're in love you're doing it wrong

[@rahmanmoncatar9675]

Your professor has a good point

[@justfriendly7676]

Whose your professor? I obviously would enjoy his class.

[@Azzabackam]

THIS IS REALLY GOOD

[@ANOimity1029]

Follow this advice. A good example : Castle. That series had amazing charecter, amazing chemistry and audience literally waited on pins n needles for relationship to kick off. And it was most natural thg to follow thru

[@marions.3657]

* cough * ineffable husbands * cough*

[@BlackShadowUchiha]

Red talking about how she doesn’t really understand relationships kinda made me think of when Goku agreed to marry Chi-chi because he thought marriage was a type of food

[@lifeontheledgerlines8394]

I've never watched DBZ, but that sounds actually amazing

[@CobaltChono]

@LifeOnTheLedgerLines | That was og dragon ball

[@Vinity16]

Can confirm that episode. Man that guy is not qualified to be a husband or dad.

[@othelliusmaximus]

Ironically the creator Toriyama admitted he didn't know how to write romantic subplots either.

[@therestinghornet6906]

I mean the man got cake didnt he?

[@lyreparadox]

"We live in a society where relationships are considered to be the norm, both in fiction and in real life." -Red But we also live in a society where we seem to have a really hard time writing healthy relationships. Well that explains a lot.

[@ulrikahaggard9923]

We live in a 🅱️ociety

[@sophiaredwood5825]

👏

[@chancellor500]

That really does make since.

[@hi.241]

Hands down

[@hopelesslyoptimistic8231]

Healthy relationship aren’t interesting enough. Usually it feels like the characters don’t love each other enough but in that story they do. It’s a like a healthy relation in real life they don’t show that much affection but it is there subconsciously. Toxic relationships are tragic and more spontaneous relationships are more romantic. A healthy relationship is cute but for it to play into your story and gain large audience approval (which is the goal of most relationships in stories) the relationship has to intriguing and wanted by the audience. The problem is while shipper are the majority of a fanbase they are also annoying because if they don’t get what they want or feel like the writers aren’t teasing them enough that it could happen then they will not like the story. I think the best way to write relationships is to have the planned out. Know that the audience are going to want these two characters and their relationship unpredictable that way it’s not cheesy for the people who don’t care and for the people who do care are always wondering if the ship will one day come true.

[@Queen1001N]

Another tip, if you go with the idea that “opposites attract” it is important to remember that opposites can attract IF they’re complimentary to each other. For example, a person who likes to nurture and a person who likes to be nurtured might find each other attractive. However, a person who enjoys only loud rock music and a person who enjoys only soft classical music, might not find each other attractive.

[@wordforger]

Exactly. Introvert can be happy with the extrovert if the extrovert shields them from having to deal with too many people at once. Meanwhile extrovert gets a partner that they can dive deep with. And while the loud rock and classical person might not necessarily get along... They might both be music lovers who can meet in the middle.

[@ChristophelusPulps]

Your point is well made, but ironically, there is a lot of crossover between metalheads and lovers of classical music.

[@WIKKRMUSIC]

yngwie: am i a joke to you?

[@notactuallyacat.]

@@WIKKRMUSIC Existence of an exception does not disprove the literary rule

[@WIKKRMUSIC]

@@notactuallyacat. true, true, lol

[@TGE420]

My favourite fictional couple is wall-e and eve

[@alilordoftheskies5079]

A man of culture.

[@ricardo.compere8504]

They barely say words are from different worlds and show each other affection while being presented as machines gotta love that kind of nuance

[@jeffbenton6183]

@@ricardo.compere8504 Words can only do harm...

[@hrithik6323]

My fave non binnery couple

[@jacobsheehan9715]

@@hrithik6323 really?

[@MogofWar]

I don't think the people in Hollywood even know what a healthy relationship looks like.

[@hiimchrisj]

You know if we're being completely honest that's probably a fair assessment on account of how often breakups and divorces happen in Hollywood.

[@timothymclean]

And let's not get started on the sexual harassment. And assault. Yeesh.

[@jonathansoriano3568]

Okay but anime relationship give me more confidence in their relationships than my own(chuunibyou, love is war, and sound of your voice)

[@MogofWar]

@@jonathansoriano3568 Anime are usually written by people nowhere near the Hollywood Bubble.

[@jonathansoriano3568]

@@MogofWar i used the tone in that comment wrong but i am just saying lets look at the bright side and appreciate good relationships in media despite it being oceans away😂

[@forestofstorms]

Now, let's say this together. GOOD ROMANCE STARTS WITH GOOD FRIENDSHIP. and bad romance starts with oooooooooooooo oOoOO caught in a bad romance!

[@randiscott2647]

Oh my God I love this comment

[@user-rx2zp1um2n]

You’re right though

[@rahmanmoncatar9675]

(BuT ItS MoRe CoMplEx tHeN tHat)yeah yeah yeah but its probably the best way to right a romance

[@forestofstorms]

@@rahmanmoncatar9675 yeah I kinda hate the "oh they're attractive so I'm head over heels for them" it just... I hate romance wirh no context. If it takes them kissing to make me ship them, it's not worth shipping

[@rahmanmoncatar9675]

@@forestofstorms exactly

[@yiklongtay6029]

It really feels like the fact that Red's asexual didn't impede her ability to comprehend romantic subplots. It just made her have high standards as a connoisseur of romantic subplots.

[@wordforger]

As an aro-ace lady meself, I think I've probably examined the whole romance/relationship thing just as much if not more than a lot of romantic/allosexual people. I had to because it doesn't come 'naturally' to me and everyone's been going on about it my whole life. Examining these relationships from an outside 'objective' viewpoint makes it clear what works and what doesn't. So yeah, I can appreciate relationships where the relationship is built up on friendship and mutual understanding since that is basically how how all good relationships work, romantic or platonic. What annoys me are the ones built on "we are of compatible orientations and you're hot, let's do it." Because 'hotness' simply doesn't register, so it's easier to look past that to the inherent flaws of the relationship.

[@deadersurvival4716]

@@wordforger As a demi-ace, I can confirm. Just because I don't inherently understand most of the hints (especially since they've never been directed at me), doesn't mean that I can't identify how actual healthy relationships work. It's a mutual give and take, with communication, respect, understanding, and (who would have guessed) affection. The problem, as Red and J W have said, is that very few relationships in media are done that well, due to them being built on "you're hot, let's f*** outside a Wendy's", when that's just not how healthy relationships are built. (That being said, one night stands are fine as long as both sides have a choice in the matter and both sides know that it's a one night stand. Don't use a relationship to drag people along, and don't think that someone saying 'yes' is consent, remember to consider whether they have the option to say no.) Worse yet, most relationships that actually are commitment based tend to be a supporting character having a relationship with the main character without any semblance of reciprocation past sharing a bed, house, or a handful of kisses. For anyone that reads this, regardless of whether you're writing a relationship, looking for one, or are actually in one; remember that for a relationship to be healthy, BOTH members have to be able to operate in a healthy space, especially when their partner is involved. And that applies to any relationship; dating, marriage, friendship, parent/child, siblings, boss/employee, teammates, or any other form of interpersonal interaction. Relationships should NEVER be one sided. Both partners don't have to show their sides in the same way, but both sides do have to show in a relationship that works for them AND their partner. Whether that's constant hugs, supporting your partner through crisis, or even asking your partner what they want to eat even if you know that they'll give you a non-answer.

[@KoylTrane]

Not ace, still think that most romantic subplots are bullshit.

[@osteelgen8225]

Oh she’s ace ok that explains it

[@Takejiro24]

@@deadersurvival4716 Me being an aspiring writer for two asexual characters in a relationship: *Write that down, WRITE THAT DOWN!*

[@jjkthebest]

"If one of them can't be in character while in a relationship, they probably shouldn't be in that relationship" I feel like this is pretty good advice IRL as well.

[@Kittsuera]

like, she cracked the code for what irl standards should be to say "i do" if you cant accept that, 9/10 times prob shouldnt be saying it. the other times is when there are things that should change for the betterment of both parties. like no setting villagers on fire for not providing sacrifices. just because you are a dragon doesnt mean you have to horde all the gold in the land too.

[@laciereinheart9490]

Agreement all around. I feel like if you have to put on a mask around someone, you're doing it wrong. I've never dated, but my plan if I ever do/when I do, is to act like my nerdy, geeky, silly self. If they want to get deep with the conversation, my plan is to let them know that I am a medicated bipolar disorder sufferer. Not because I'm trying to scare them away...but because I'd rather they know up front, than decide they like me, and then not know what they're getting into. If they want to keep trying with me, then my hope is that they learn more about it. In return, if they are willing to learn about my issues, I'll do my best to learn about theirs, and if it works out, then great! If not, I'll only blame them if they tried to use or manipulate me. But if they just leave cause it's healthier for them, I'd rather applaud them. I'm difficult to deal with, and mature enough to know that. I have upset people before, and while it was friends and church people, I've still learned that my random bouts of hyperactivity, depression, and mania can be...hard. I'm not an easy person to deal with. But if somebody is willing to try, then I'll be damned if I don't try for him. God bless y'all!

[@liamnehren1054]

hmm a bit more complicated then saying it, in the first year brain chemistry changes meant to ensure future generations screw up objectivity towards your romantic partner, this even messes with how you act and you are literally not 100% in control of this and you will act not entirely like yourself... and that's without talking about the Jungian masks we wear at home, work etc and how our real self is something that takes time to come to the surface because of how life beats us up and we hide if we have any depth at all as people. Later in life when hormone levels drop and so sexual desire, the changes for a new relationship also mellow out making it easier but still people have trouble riding the hormonal rollercoaster of lust.

[@willieoelkers5568]

This is the thing I found off-putting in all those kids’ shows where you’ve got the one hapless character who’s always trying to come up with a whacky stunt or obsessing over some minor detail of an interaction or otherwise seems to be devoting an unhealthy amount of time and self worth to either the jerk popular kid who treats them like dirt or someone who they should be able to be upfront with but they apparently have some kind of mental block about it. In either case, I never understand what the appeal of being in that situation is, or why they keep putting themselves through it.

[@nessa-parmentier]

I was searching for that comment, as it's pretty much what I was thinking when she said it. And it's also why sometimes I'm kinda sad when people I've known for a long time get in a relationship and suddenly their behaviour changes a lot. I'm like... hey, significant other person, what did you do to them

[@themandownstairs4765]

"I don't like coffee" "[deadpan, distracted] I'm never talking to you again" Red writes more convincing relationship banter than professional writers

[@loturzelrestaurant]

Ugh... I'm so done with Harem-Building and the Concept of Harems; Real-Life or Fiction or whatever.

[@machinedramon3532]

@@loturzelrestaurant You're not wrong, but how is that relevant?

[@royalhydra9790]

@@machinedramon3532 I think it’s a bot, it’s commented that in other threads

[@notactuallyacat.]

I recently had a conversation with my partner about how to cut a sandwich, and after telling them I didn’t cut it at all, they promptly called me a heathen. We’ve been together for nearly two years and I wouldn’t trade them for anyone else

[@loturzelrestaurant]

@@notactuallyacat. Yeah, sounds nice. But do you play enough Minecraft, so your Relationship is Healthy? Wash your hands? Wear a Mask (during Covid)? And other stuff that is just generally good for Human-People-Thingys?

[@johang7725]

Anybody think that Aphrodite would be mad at this and Artemis is just like "They get me"

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Oh, definitely!

[@zoro115-s6b]

Aphrodite is one of those people who ships characters that have never even spoken and have a 99% chance of hating each other if they did, and insists that they're perfect for each other because, you know, they're both pretty!

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Sayer Glasgow Pretty much.

[@zoro115-s6b]

@@RickyUzumaki993 Are... Are you Hermes? Because that reply was fast as fuck.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Sayer Glasgow Lol. No, I’m not Hermes. I wish I was.

[@coilsothersniper7784]

"I personally have enormous trouble recognising when two people are in a relationship" That's a mood. I didn't notice two of my friends were together for SEVEN MONTHS.

[@Ismael-kc3ry]

They didn’t tell you?

[@kirbyfazendoummoonwalk9214]

@@Ismael-kc3ry maybe they just assumed he realised

[@Ismael-kc3ry]

@@kirbyfazendoummoonwalk9214 damn

[@drscavv2661]

4 years. Take the L

[@MK-bj8pd]

@@Ismael-kc3ry keeping it a secret from mutual friends can be pretty fun in my experience. Though highly suggest that if the relationship ends so does the secret because not being able to tell people why you feel like shit sucks a lot.

[@kfizzledizzle8467]

Movie Executive: "Wow, so they fall in love. why? Do they have some sort of romantic chemistry through out the movie?" Guy pitching the movie idea: "Because he's the male lead and she's the female lead." Executive: "Wow, that is super romantic. Romance subplots are tight!"

[@janeeggleston9542]

Kip Higginson ...or, because the are both attractive. I love pitch meetings!

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

Writing romantic subplots is super easy, barely an inconvenience

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

@Riley Harper p.s. look up 'pitch meetings' on KZbin if you haven't seen them 😅

[@l.tc.5032]

You win the internet.

[@bored_person]

I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. Media executives are known for their detrimental interference. I wouldn't be surprised if most bad romances were the fault of executive meddling.

[@tuneaj2763]

Very good, healthy relationship example: Rapunzel and Eugene. They're my favorite Disney couple. They have good chemistry in the movie, and they're so great in the show.

[@UmBelenense]

Show? What show?

[@holly3330]

Um Belenense The tangled tv series, it’s honestly really good.

[@nyangatagaming903]

Exactly! The relationship is healthy, and MAKES SENSE!

[@sophhuh2113]

Tiana and Naveen, also! :D

[@slithra227]

And they had actual fights too! And they worked through them! Writers almost never show realistic emotional fights especially in stuff marketed at kids so it was really refreshing to see.

[@Emmyfish]

The whole "what to do after the big kiss wtf is a relationship" is so deeply engrained into long-running shows that when Jake and Amy got together in Brooklyn Nine-Nine really early on/were super open communicating past/present emotions I was legitimately shook and worried about whether the show was going continually break them up and get them back together. B99 is amazing.

[@j2dragon109]

Emily The show did a remarkably good job of dragging out the pre-relationship stuff without making it unhealthy. Like, first Jake’s in denial, then he tells her but Amy’s dating someone else and he has to go undercover, then after Tedy and Amy break up, Jake’s dating someone else, then they thought that they had both moved on, then Jake finds out he still likes her, then Amy tells him about her no dating cops rule, then they finally get together!

[@bcmarcin9447]

I love that show so much

[@theomegajuice8660]

Parks and Rec was good with this too. Both April & Andy and Leslie & Ben relationships were more fun to watch after they officially got together.

[@j2dragon109]

hayhay055 Simply focus on other conflicts. The relationship does not have to have a conflict. It can be used as a break from the other conflicts.

[@justineberlein5916]

Say what you will about HIMYM's ending. (I side with the Take, that its issue was essentially that they planned the ending in advance, but then the characters grew in completely different directions) It handled Lily and Marshall's relationship well.

[@mihael5722]

I think one of the best examples of a series doing well at continuing a relationship is How To Train Your Dragon. They get together in the first movie, and then in the second movie they've both clearly changed and grown, and you can see how their relationship has become very relaxed and comfortable, and it follows into the final movie where they continue to love and support each other and in the end they get married and have children they clearly love. They've stayed together, both feel natural, and get a satisfying ending

[@tortis6342]

And it's such a great pairing to watch on screen. When Astrid is braiding little pieces of Hiccup's hair it just makes me go aww every time. They are one of my favorite types of couple: competent on their own, but better together.

[@OverlyPositiveFanboy]

Funnily enough, if you include the TV show and specials as canon, then they don't actually get together after the first film. It's at least three more years until they make things official, despite multiple on-the-lip kisses. No wonder everyone could see it.

[@ethancoltrane5754]

This!! I'm gay and Hiccstrid and Dax x Worf from DS9 are the only straight couples in fiction that consistently make me squee like a dumb fangirl.

[@octogonSmuggler]

A better example is Lord of the Rings. Arwen and Aragon have a perfect romantic subplot. The story mentions it. They spend a few minutes on it throughout both the movies and the books. Then it returns at important times and at the end. Sam has a crush on a cute Hobbit girl. It's mentioned at the beginning of the first movie, once in the second, and they get married in the third. Perfect. The romance is not as important as the plot, and people always forget this fact. There's not a need for everything to have it at the forefront. The fact that the romance takes the farthest seat at the back is so important and most stories and shows don't seem to understand this.

[@esobelisk3110]

@@octogonSmuggler i mean, sure, if that’s what you prefer, but some stories thrive with a romance as a major subplot, and some audiences enjoy that. how much space you want the romance to take up in the story is an issue of preference, not writing quality.

[@yurihime000]

I think the Tangeled series did extremely well portraying a happy healthy relationship by basically just writing Rapunzel and Flynn/Eugene as best friends who also thought the other is just super pretty and kissable

[@anzaia2164]

which kinda just is what a relationship is, from my understanding

[@Leafeon-gd5en]

I feel all the best relationships are just that lmao

[@kristanicole8123]

@SamTheSoviet42 that's actually how most relationships are! many healthy relationships are approx 75/25 personality to looks at least in each other's eyes. you might also look into the sexuality demisexual, which from my understanding is only having sexual/romantic with the pretenses of a deep love and understanding connection.

[@derekskelton4187]

@SamTheSoviet42 Culture and fiction loves the chase and the romance. Sexy people being sexy. Actually spending time together requires liking people, but people tend to rush into things, and end up stuck.

[@flightlesslord2688]

@SamTheSoviet42 called not being shallow

[@YugSihtTsuj]

Most romantic and loving relationship: Gomez and Morticia Addams. Absent their weirdness, they are what every romantic pairing should aspire to. I'm not even kidding.

[@nowhereman6019]

"I remember my first funeral."

[@bishop2286]

Hell yeah

[@evilinc333]

To quote a line from Addams Family the musical: "We are as besotted with each other as the night we first met"

[@jean-paulaudette9246]

They always manage to maintain the initial excitement (& terror) of their first meeting.

[@thesatelliteslickers907]

They we're made to be a reaction and inversion to what is seen as normal Hence they are very open, very goth, they are constantly showing how much they love and care for each other in contrast to how distant so many other married couples are They are open about their sex lives and speak candidly with their children and support them. Even if they don't understand it like in the case of the baby from Adams family values who doesn't share their same excentricities They are both an inversion of the standard family values of the time. As well as what people should aspire to be in their relationships

[@Hazy_Heart]

I don't know why but I just wanted to say All your characters that you draw all have such majestic hair

[@TheUrizen]

Fluffy as fuck

[@niklavsveiksans8432]

Mostly why I watch

[@eliad6543]

*F L U F F Y*

[@xirensixseo]

its the besttt

[@robina.c.6380]

RIGHT?? I'd like to write a story for every character she shows us!

[@carmenmercedes9903]

I wrote a story once, and while I wouldn't say the main character was aro, she could be read that way. Anyway, she didn't have any romantic interests, but once I sent the story to my friends to see what they thought, these were the responses: "Is she polyamourous?" "Is she dating EvErYoNe or just Luke?" "Is she bi? It seems like she likes Luke AND Mary." They really thought that she MUST have a relationship because that's how stuff works, and it just really grinds my gears! (yes i know how old that made me sound lol)

[@Dragon_Fire_2468]

Did you explain it to your friends?

[@carmenmercedes9903]

@@Dragon_Fire_2468 yea

[@meh4315]

I know this was posted a long time ago, but would you mind dropping the name of the book? Or some kind of plot summary?

[@carmenmercedes9903]

@@meh4315 Oh, it was just a story for school. It's not posted anywhere. It was basically about this girl who was forced into an arranged marriage with the king even though she doesn't want to be married. She spends the story trying to kill the king so she can abdicate the throne, but nothing works. (She's not good with swords, he's been taking a bit of poison everyday so now he's immune, etc.) Eventually he tries to have shrex with her against her will, and she freaks out and suffocates him. It dawns on her that she'll go to prison of anyone finds out it was her, so she panics the next morning and blames her best friends. (Luke and Mary)

[@spencervance8484]

I once tried writing and bounce ideas off my sister. Apparently my descriptions and words were too big for her and she told me to "dumb down my writing"

[@rconr1899]

okay but the overly serious woman and goofy male example is like 99% of Hallmarks storylines.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

What about overly serious guy and goofy girl? How often do you see that one?

[@lenarotblum8502]

Goofy girl is maniac pixie dream girl usually

[@cybersketcher1130]

@@RickyUzumaki993 I'm writing that in one of my stories.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

CyberSketcher 11 Interesting

[@TheHornedKing_27]

That’s because it’s funny also I’ve noticed that there’s never goofy girl and serious guy most likely because most people will just think there an ass even though it’s the same thing just the genders are swapped

[@HimanXK]

Sokka and Suki getting together was a little weird, but once they were officially together it was great, and it was great that they just stayed together and stayed healthy and played off of each other well

[@supurflufybuny]

***SPOILER’S FOR ATLA COMICS*** But it’s so fckn sad that Suki dies in the comics.

[@adeleaslan8182]

@@supurflufybuny .... *WHAT?!?!*

[@cardboardcrafter2482]

Didn't his first GF turn into the moon?

[@adeleaslan8182]

@@cardboardcrafter2482 that’s rough buddy

[@cardboardcrafter2482]

@@adeleaslan8182 Memes are fun.

[@kanyechan8376]

So What you’re telling me is that they did relationships in a healthy way in the Shrek franchise of all things?

[@XellosNi]

It almost makes way too much sense that a franchise that subverts Disney Fairy Tale Tropes would accomplish this. Funny enough, I think Aladdin comes pretty close in that part of the story involves turning a relationship that starts to get muddled by lies into a more open, honest and healthy one as there was some chemistry between them when they both felt on equal ground to each other.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

... Yeah, pretty much.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Big Brother Xellos Agreed

[@alilordoftheskies5079]

@@XellosNi Not based on lies but I think Tiana and Naveen as well as Rapunzel and Eugene did it right too. Well, I guess Rapunzel and Eugene was kinda based on lies.

[@CJCroen1393]

And also that fanfiction does "portraying the characters post-getting together" better than most Hollywood writers too.

[@pappanalab]

“I don’t get romance” You’ve summoned the Aro/Aces

[@nathanjereb9944]

How did I get here?

[@charlykoparabola7940]

nooo, not the R word!!

[@nathanjereb9944]

@@charlykoparabola7940 *hissssss*

[@insanitycrafter8553]

Romance is for nerds

[@asolomoth1066]

Valentine's Day just means I get to buy *all the chocolate for myself!*

[@grieverjoe]

You know, I was actually really pleasantly surprised at the end of Pacific Rim, when it ended with just a hug. Having spent time in the military, when two people spend time together, train together, and go through a traumatic experience together doesn't automatically make them hot for each other. It does help to form a huge bond between the two, but I always saw Mako and Raleigh as battle buddies, as opposed to "a thing". And I really appreciated that the movie treated it as such and didn't push them together for the sake of having a romance subplot.

[@TupocalypseShakur]

I loved that ending cuz it caught me off guard.

[@DragonKnightJin]

I appreciated that they didn't shoehorn in a romantic subplot. *Maybe* something happened after the events of the movie, maybe they just stayed close friends. It doesn't matter, really. Not to me, anyway. In the immortal words of Bob Ross: Everybody needs a friend.

[@yonibrill5553]

And then they ruined it in Pacific rim 2

[@photogenicBlur]

how to write a good romance: write a good friendship. that's it. if you can't imagine them as friends, you can't imagine them as a couple this also goes to those seeking relationships irl btw. that girl/boy is not good for you if you don't enjoy their company as a friend!

[@fightingmedialounge519]

If only it were that simple my naive friend.

[@yaboimagnus4776]

Kye Dysarthria well, although it can be more complex than that, these are good starting points

[@skullthrone8882]

Unfortunately most movies don't have 2 year run times

[@grayson8929]

That's probably why most friendships are misinterpreted as relationships because they work so well together why in the hell wouldn't they hook up

[@pRahvi0]

Friendship is, I guess, one of the best ways to get a relationship last longer than the honeymoon. But I have a hunch that, in many cases, there is also something else included. "A spark" or something like that it is often called. (And in some cases, it's all that is included; and romances like that seldom stay healthy for long, as far as I understand) I don't know if it's possible to even understand a romantic relationship without experiencing it on your own; so, as a single, I might be completely wrong. But I guess it might be the occasional (positive) surprises, or just some peculiar incidents that refuel the romance. Something like: "I {had forgotten/didn't know} you could be nice this way (too)."

[@panlis6243]

"I don't know how to write a relationship. I can't even handle one of those in real life" - JP from Terrible Writing Advice

[@supreme_king_obama1158]

Ah yes, a fellow man of culture. TWA is my second favorite writing tips internet show. My favorite being OSP of course.

[@Alaryk111]

@@supreme_king_obama1158 GLORY TO THE EMPIRE!

[@supreme_king_obama1158]

@@Alaryk111 ALL ACCORDING TO PLAN

[@R_lulu]

@@supreme_king_obama1158 , I don't know what you're talking about, and the PLAN seems really important, but you know what is more important? The LOVE TRIANGLE

[@supreme_king_obama1158]

@@R_lulu ah yes, the LOVE TRIANGLE, the best way to solve any and all problems in your writing. have a massive plot hole that can ruin your book? just add a love triangle and problem solved. need something to fill in the gap in between arcs and -can't be bothered to come up with an actually good idea- just add a love triangle and problem solved!

[@matteoford3952]

What's funniest about this is from what I can tell, Red understands the trope far better then she gives herself credit for. Apply the context of suspension of disbelief to this trope, and you get the true issue of most romance both inside stories and irl. Her notes on what makes romantic subplots not work is actually good romance advice.

[@TheRealEvilkitten3]

genuinely i think people who are aro and/or ace probably have an easier time understanding what works for romance story-wise bc we frequently don't really care about the romance itself. like sure there are plenty of us who love that stuff but i think that since so many of us simply don't give a shit it's easier to take a step back and go "ok but STORY".

[@Vinemaple]

@@TheRealEvilkitten3 Exactly. I'm not aro or ace, but I spent my entire teenage life not being in romances, except for being scammed a few times by unscrupulous classmates. And all through it, and even today, people ask me for relationship advice, despite the fact that I have too many issues to be in a relationship of my own. People always expect me to have a clear, unbiased view of their relationship, and oddly, it seems that I _do._ I'm not exactly sure why.

[@TheRealEvilkitten3]

@@Vinemaple i've been asked for advice about romantic relationships way too much for an aro person lol i feel your pain

[@CoryTheNorm]

​@@TheRealEvilkitten3 I can only get invested in a fictional relationship if I'm already emotionally invested in both characters individually. I'm starting to suspect I'm aro lol.

[@TheRealEvilkitten3]

@@CoryTheNormif you are, then welcome to the club!

[@bennyd.1862]

A boy and a girl are childhood friends. Boy leaves town for whatever reason and girl is sad, but moves on. They meet each other after *no* contact for 15 years. But that doesn't matter because after the reunion they are suddenly in love.(I hate that shit)

[@useodyseeorbitchute9450]

Maybe that's better that the time apart was so long. Otherwise they may have done something irresponsible before reaching age of consent.

[@merrittanimation7721]

And then he makes a grand romantic gesture like blowing a hole in the moon or something to show his seriousness

[@TheManofThings777]

This is funny because in anime, two characters being childhood friends is like, an instant "yeah they aren't ending up together" nowadays.

[@icarusablaze1831]

@@TheManofThings777 Nowadays the protagonist doesn't get together with anyone

[@MrElionor]

Isn't that the plot of the Kissing Booth?

[@Warden_Vtel]

"Blander than unflavoured oatmeal" I don't claim to know you very well, but I'll be damned if that isn't the most _Red_ thing you've ever said.

[@Boggsy.]

Even steel cut can't carry that bowl.

[@donatodiniccolodibettobardi842]

S&N Forde Much blander, than cardboard, yes.

[@judeskater93]

Vtel 'Zolam my favorite line from red is, "because Zeus has never met a woman he didn't want to make sweet sweet Eros too." I laughed too hard from that line.

[@a-c6586]

she was right.

[@amilisom]

I eat bland, unflavored oatmeal every morning. It's cheap and healthy. Fight me. :)

[@Wells13555]

Red: I'm dropping hints that I'm aromantic Red: I'm aromantic

[@somedude8346]

Being blunt about how you want to handle a relationship needs to be encouraged otherwise you will fall into a dynamic that feels awkward and in some cases annoying

[@Wells13555]

I couldnt agree more, I'm just memein

[@alguienanormal3040]

She is asexual, dont know about romance, though.

[@lukejordan7510]

@@alguienanormal3040 panromantic

[@samuel_boivin]

What does Blue think of that? 🤔

[@justanothernerd6714]

It’s incredible that Luz and Amity from The Owl House have so far managed to nail every point that Red lists for representing a positive relationship. It’s one that’s built up naturally over time, they don’t act like different characters when they’re around each other, and so far, the show is doing a good job of presenting an ongoing relationship now that they’re actually dating. At the time of writing this comment, Eclipse Lake is the most recent episode, and I’m really excited to see how Lumity will develop further!

[@snarls3760]

True

[@Doublemonk0506]

I need to add this. Amity does freak out in the earlier episodes, which makes sense as she has no knowledge of a healthy relationship. The only healthy relationship she has is with Edric and Emira, and they tease her a lot. Teasing siblings, selfish parents, and fake friends make it so Amity basically has no one to talk to about loving someone

[@EZenough4]

I think they sort of rushed Luz’s side of the relationship. She blushed once and the en off screen, developed a crush. I was disappointed but I still love them

[@Doublemonk0506]

@@EZenough4, to be fair, two factors made it so some plot lines in The Owl House would be rushed. The forced school subplot (it was forced onto the show by execs) and the early cancellation of TOH

[@justanothernerd6714]

@EZenough I don’t think it was rushed at all. While Luz may not have shown as many obvious signs as Amity did, we still see that she grows closer to her over the course of season 1. From their second episode together, Luz expressed a desire to be friends with Amity, and every subsequent episode shows a growing affection. Smiling, high fives, laughing, hugging, and the Grom dance. True, Luz never blushed until the Blight Industries episode, but there is more than one way to express attraction.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

Anakin let a romantic subplot destroy him.

[@Crick1952]

Obi-Wan Kenobi He was the Choosen one! He was supposed to destroy the romantic subplot, not get one!

[@rowan1809]

General Kenobi!

[@CatBetaBellanri1218]

And now Luke is absolutely horrified and scared living a life of seclusion. Because he's seen this powerful trope only once before, and if it didn't scare him then it certainly scares him now....

[@pleasekillyoursef]

Taylor Kane this is simply the best responce

[@1Heirborn]

The Rose x Finn relationship certainly scares me now

[@revamahajan4395]

2:15 I think this explains why same-sex romantic subplots are more compelling and actually make sense to me. Writers have to actually write a compelling subplot because it’s not usually automatically assumed by most audiences.

[@Redrally]

That's a fair point, while most hetero relationships in fiction are clearly FRIs (Forced Romantic Interests) and are very very boring.

[@t26e44]

It’s probably true that same sex relationships have to more well written considering it’s less assumed, but it’s really annoying when the story puts too much emphasis on the couple rather than treating it as normal

[@revamahajan4395]

Hugo Huang yeah it is really annoying when people think they deserve high praise for being so “woke” however, in this period of time, representation is definitely appreciated. I think its a fine line to walk.

[@SingingSealRiana]

Yeah, not unfailable, but still totaly a true trend

[@chadfalardeau3259]

There still be a forced romance just for the sake of being "woke"

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

Iv never seen 2 characters go on one date and decide. “Nah, friends” which is like 80% of my dating experience

[@wooyeah1738]

Honestly the only time I’ve seen this was with Rachel and Percy, and half of the fandom still hates Rachel for it.

[@cordeliajackson8615]

pandemonium present I know, I love Rachel as a character and how Uncle Rick handled it. Rachel is an interesting character and the fandom hates her because for maybe less than a book, she had a crush on Percy.

[@wooyeah1738]

Cordelia Jackson Yeah. People fail to recall that she can’t date, and Percy wasn’t dating at the time.

[@toastymarshmallow5372]

you should watch "Spies are Forever". It's a musical that's free here on youtube and the female and male lead have a song together and they kiss but are like "ehh nah this just doesn't work let's just be friends" it has great music too also your pfp and username are amazing

[@cordeliajackson8615]

ToastyMarshmallow Dude I love spies are forever! It just didn’t come to mind.

[@ashley-rosebellendaine899]

I think the prepackaged romantic subplot and the traditional “boy meets girl, shared eye contact, soft music” thing goes out the window when you have two bi or gay characters. People will insist that those characters are just friends.

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

I wonder if it was something from real life that naturally bleed into media ir if it was the opposite (Personally experience) there were many times I had crushes on boys but the only times I've got any romantic related reactions by my family members was when I interacted with girls, and I mean *interacted* , sometimes mentioning a girl was enough to raise eyebrows and cheeky smiles but whenever I expressed sincere desire to be with a boy I was either given uninterested responses and sometimes was actively brushed off Granted I had only mentioned my sexuality to a few family members and only my mom even considered the possibility that I might date someone of the same sex and I can count on my hand how many times that happened, meanwhile I would need pages to truly point out every time my peers and relatives speculated about my love life Needless to say that effected my perception of love and romance

[@ashley-rosebellendaine899]

@@airplanes_aren.t_real oof I get that. I definitely think the real-life/media thing is a mutual-reinforcement situation since art mirrors life and vice versa.

[@cheekybreeky3775]

weirdly enough I've seen the opposite happen in certain fandoms, where two strictly just friends or explicitly straight characters are insisted by some people to be gay, which is in a way a different kind of toxic to those that deny gay/bi attractions. Not better or worse, just different. Certainly, gay and bi people have it rough as homophobia's still pretty widespread so representation is really great, but some people jump the gun a little too much and label things that aren't gay or bi as gay, and attack people who disagree with them. Again, small small minority, but a very annoying one that ruins the reputation of the gay community.

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

@@cheekybreeky3775 depends on the fandom, some might have more LGBTQ+ ships than straight ones

[@cheekybreeky3775]

@@airplanes_aren.t_real yeh that's true. It's a matter of what community is formed or stuff, etc. Owl house was pretty wholesome in that sense. Sometimes annoying when the ship is what's all that's talked about and not much the story, but it is nice to see lgbtq representation done tastefully and everyone's just really happy/excited over it so it's understandable. the my hero academia fandom on the other hand...

[@aunix16]

Romantic subplots: *exist* Red: *aromantic confusion*

[@Orange_Swirl]

Asexual and aromantic aren't the same things. Although, I'm pretty sure Red happens to be both. May God have mercy on the soul that falls in love with Red.

[@aunix16]

@@Orange_Swirl Sorry for the mistake! It has been corrected :)

[@1randomperson15]

@@Orange_Swirl She's ace and thinks she may be panromantic, she's not sure, from what I know, at least.

[@YaGirlJuniper]

@@1randomperson15 You can be panromantic while being gray aro, but speaking as a Gray Ace Lesbian myself, "Panromantic" is sometimes a label we pick up when we think we can feel romantic feelings for anyone regardless of gender but then it turns out no, that wasn't romance, we're just aroace and we feel platonic love for our close friends. That's why it's confusing! Is this romance or isn't it!? Even I sometimes can't tell the difference and I know I can feel romance.

[@AegixDrakan]

@@YaGirlJuniper Yeah, romance is definitely confusing. Until you've been hit by it, you don't really know what it is. And when you HAVE experienced it, it's also hard to determine in the future if what you're feeling is just "Stronger than usual platonic friend love" or just an obssession, or ACTUAL romance. It's a whole hot mess. And I say this as a "hopeless romantic type Ace", who doesn't have Lust mixed in, making things even MORE confusing. I have no idea how the hell non-Ace people cope with that. ...Hey, I think that explains all the mournful and confused love songs out there!

[@abbydabbs5519]

Fave running gag: Red lampshading her audience with battle gifs

[@weldonwin]

Specifically Pacific Rim gifs

[@Dinoman972]

@@weldonwin And occasionally Godzilla.

[@acethurman71]

@@Dinoman972 and king Kong

[@stefschouwenaars9562]

Comic kaiju!

[@jennifercorbett8640]

It's actually sad when you realize she's using this to deflect/misrepresent criticism

[@elliaatlas5832]

Good Example of a healthy relationship: Hiccup and Astrid

[@TheUrizen]

Fuck yes, you need to be higher.

[@eilonwy0360]

Their romance in the first movie was pretty forced though. They only got better with sequels. But in first httyd they felt like a walking trope of 'hero gets the girl by the end' :{

[@sebastienvondoom8615]

Jake Peralta and Amy Santiago

[@quinnsinclair7028]

They’re also really great in the tv show.

[@Traumglanz]

@@quinnsinclair7028 I would say, they are only great in the TV Show.

[@koalasandwich567]

How to make two characters end up together 1. Have like a few moments of interaction with some chemistry 2. Have some off-hand remark about them being together 3. Let Tumblr do the rest

[@Blwbelle]

Tumblr or Twitter

[@Peztllence]

@@Blwbelle both work

[@Blwbelle]

@@Peztllence lmao

[@nuggetbomber5977]

This is why I love doom. No romance, no forced relationships, just ripping and tearing through hell. The only romantic subplot is between the player and the game because the player loves it.

[@friedegg3732]

finally something i can get behind

[@indigo7289]

otp!

[@Ismael-kc3ry]

Wdym, The Slayer is madly in love with the super shotgun

[@royalhydra9790]

*RIP AND TEAR,*

[@TheAstralWitch]

Romance is temporary, but Doom is Eternal.

[@lleer00na.79]

Say it with me people. Friends first, THEN romance.

[@ZaxorVonSkyler]

Ok but here me out, online dating.

[@generalzeta7000]

Is this why you should look for a SF who in the Friend Zone with you?

[@Ichigo90]

Two words: Ron Stoppable

[@nicolasa.3192]

It's the most effective way man. That's why it's so believable

[@user-jn1wm3tb8v]

Not always. Most people nowadays date other people they never knew before dating.

[@nathanfitzgerald2596]

"¡How could you cheat on me with my twin brother Enrique!" "Henrique! It's not what you think!" Goddamn I love this series.

[@limazulu6192]

what series is this?

[@warmgoodrob5611]

@@limazulu6192 late reply, but "this series" is referring to this video, Trope Talk

[@gangrenousgandalf2102]

Enrique: "¡Brother! ¡How dare you insult the love of my life!"

[@enigmatic3194]

Time stamp please

[@zorroillumantiz3562]

This bothers a lot: if they are hispanic (it seems like a mockery of mexican soap operas) their names should be pronounced the same way since the "h" is silent in modern spanish... Though know that I think about it a pair of identical twins with the same name but spelled differently is hilarious. It doesn't bother me that much anymore.

[@brandondavidson4085]

"disagreement and liking each other aren't mutually exclusive", my wife literally roasted my shorts for 5 minutes today but we still had date night and enjoyed each other's company. Respectful communication is the most realistic, sympathetic part of a fictional relationship

[@blackwing1362]

Mmmm, steamed hams.

[@baronvonbeandip]

Meanwhile, on instagram: "He didn't worship you for every second of the day? You deserve better."

[@Moonstar79]

I REALLY love that Avatar did that thing it did with Zuko and Katara where everybody in universe (and not) shipped them and they specifically denied that because fan service isn't what Avatar is about. She wasn't a perk for his character development. As a wise Red once said, man, this show is good.

[@zoro115-s6b]

I loved their simultaneous "I'm not his girlfriend! / She's not my girlfriend!" Scene. I never got the zutara shipping. I mean, there was the scene from the cave, and I get why that could be seen as shipping fodder if it was a different set of characters, but in that case, it was really just Katara being Katara. She's just a naturally caring person who wanted to help Zuko now that she realized how clearly damaged he was. Ultimately I really don't see any chemistry between them. I think she ends up liking and respecting him, but they really don't have much in common.

[@Moonstar79]

@@zoro115-s6b As opposed to Mai, who was into him for basically their whole lives and ahhhhh that scene in the prison block! Yeah, I'll always be team Maiko.

[@drascin]

@@Moonstar79 I mean, I admit, Mai and Zuko being a thing caught me kind of by surprise. But then, both of them are dumbasses with the emotional openness of a marble fountain, so it's not terribly surprising that they didn't really demonstrate it much outwardly until they both were certain the other reciprocated.

[@Moonstar79]

As much emotional openness as a marble fountain XD although, there was that campfire scene at Ember Island. I was caught off guard by it, too, but I learned to love it.

[@zoro115-s6b]

@@Moonstar79 I mean, for Zuko and Mai, going ten minutes with someone without telling them you hate them or literally blowing up in their face is the pinnacle of emotional openness.

[@nef36]

I love how, in the books, Ron and Hermione spend the entire series acting like they're in a relationship instead of building up traditionally, then at the end they're just like: Hermione: he cares about the ELVES??? TIME TO KISS!!!!!

[@swanandab2484]

And Harry being like: .....yeah i'll just ship them lol......

[@supreme_king_obama1158]

Honestly, that scene is just gold. If you remember (which I’m sure you all do because you’re awesome people) a decent part of hermiome during books 4 and onward was her SPEW sideplot. Ron commented on how they should save the elves was him admitting that, yes, he cared about the elves and what hermiome was talking about despite him acting like an ass. This caused hermiome to realize that it was like that for basically everything and then it happens. And that’s the genius of the Ron hermiome kiss scene.

[@na1959]

Yeah, and also, the fact that a lot of Harry Potter fandom had the same shipping leading man with leading woman problem without any romantic presence. There are literally lines that prove how harry likes ron much more than Hermione and how he probably is more likely to end up with him...and he's sooo not compatible with Hermione given that he never challenges her like ron does, he doesn't try to argue with her because he doesn't like arguing and lets her boss him around but that irritates him because Harry does not like being bossed around and if they were even in a relationship and Harry kept repressing himself like that, one day he would have burst so bad. Ron grounds Hermione. He's exactly complimentary to her. And without him Harry wouldn't even hang out with Hermione that much. Seriously, jk Rowling, definitely has been foreshadowing ron and Hermione since book 4 (some would argue, even before) But many people still thought that Hermione would end up with Harry...

[@Leafeon-gd5en]

@Ameya NK lmao

[@yiklongtay6029]

I think that their relationship is perfect as teenagers can spontaneously attempt relationships from the smallest possibility of compatibility. But it would make more sense that they get together and break up maybe in-between book 4 and 5. Then we have an interesting arc where they awkwardly figure out how to act like friends.

[@Lex60]

I just realized that Shrek and Fionna is a very well written romantic relationship. They still are the same characters before becoming a couple, had they of course have troubles but they enjoy their time and share lots of thing in common.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Same here

[@carolinemcgovern4488]

Shrek, despite being memed to death, is still a very good movie. For me, Shrek the third was a movie where even though the rest was terrible, the romance between Shrek and Fiona actually worked. Like, despite the poor writing, they still have chemistry, and their troubles over babies were actually pretty realistic. Especially from Shrek's POV. If I were in his situation, I'd be terrified of becoming a parent too.

[@Kittsuera]

bonus, one of the few instances where becoming not human is the happy ending. too often its "curse is broken, now everyone is super model humans. but rare is it, curse is broken, you are now *insert creature of choice* full time.

[@merinofanfic4717]

SHREK is the best thing humanity has invented

[@TheRealEvilkitten3]

shrek is unironically a fantastic movie

[@aspendespain4606]

It is so FRUSTRATING to me when they don't show them IN the relationship. Like, the romance is fine and what not, but I much prefer seeing people in a nice healthy relationship and it's so sad to me that hardly any of them actually have that.

[@elisa4620]

I know, right? The start of a romantic relationship is supposed to be the beginning of something (hopefully good). Not the end of it all.

[@OreoRanger2210]

Literally this, let me see the characters being happy for more than an epilogue.

[@Vinemaple]

The people who actually know how to write that stuff can't get jobs as screenwriters, or they won't get jobs as screenwriters because they're able to recognize and avoid toxic interpersonal dynamics, like being a screenwriter in Hollywood

[@chanshengsupremacy8889]

You have a great point! I completely agree (even though, strangely, when I read fanfic I like the opposite lol)

[@Vinemaple]

Although sometimes when they do, you wish they hadn't, like in the 1st Space Battleship Yamato movie, where Nova, now married to Wildstar (apologies for the Western names), becomes a passive, whispering, submissive wife, and Wildstar insists on her staying home as if she couldn't darn well take care of herself. That's a different trope, though.

[@CLDJ227]

Kim and Ron from Kim Possible is a good example of a couple that still act as themselves as they did when they where friends.

[@carlrogge94]

Because they actually got a season to show their relationship and didn't end on the kiss.

[@domocan6877]

Pythak reh we only got that season because fans demanded another one. Writers originally were just going to end it on the big damn kiss

[@andyandanadraws]

After seeing this I remembered Tamaki and Haruhi from ouran high school host club 🤣🤣

[@woolyshep]

Romance: *is right in front of me and is blatantly obvious* Me: Hmmmm.... Don't see anything.

[@NoArtisticLimitation]

Oh this is so true XDX People keep flirting with me and because I’m completely oblivious and don’t tell them to stop, they think I’m digging it, then they get so offended the first time I mention my fiancé...

[@birdinafedora7391]

Me: Hold on, I think I see a smudge of- Romance: *literally glows* Me: Nope. Nothing.

[@uncreativealien1819]

Sammmmmmmmme it all ways happens to me

[@articcenturion8387]

Like harem anime.

[@mickodooku6058]

Wait, so do you constantly say that you don't see anything until you see something? That must take up a lot of brain power.

[@NightoftheLivingcookies10]

I have rules for when I decide to ship characters 1) They have to KNOW each other (at the most be acquaintances) 2) They need to be friendly with each other (I won't ship characters who's relationship in general is cruel or abusive in a dangerous way. I know lots of tv/movie couples start out hating each other but sometimes the cruelty goes too far and there should NEVER be romance coming out of it) 3) The romance shouldn't distract from major points in the plot 4) Their relationship is beneficial to each other (like one supporting the other when they have no one else and the other getting a shoulder to cry on)

[@RandomSkyeRoses]

Actually, that's a really good rule. I hope you use that in your real life

[@MrTigracho]

Those rules are actually superb for writting too.

[@Flowtail]

My rules for shipping: 1) Is the fic well-written? 2) thats it

[@justinalicea1590]

I think there should be a singular exception to rule number two on this, if people wish to use them for themselves: Characters who are not friendly with each other but are actively trying to be better people. They recognize that they have issues and they are trying to work through them, hard as it may be.

[@Hexagonaldonut]

As someone who exists kind of in a fandom with a really popular and also *really* abusive-in-concept ship, I really feel like for the most part these rules should really be followed by EVERYONE. Because no, a romantic relationship between two people where one of their character motivations is *literally* trying to kill the other does NOT make a good relationship! (Props to anyone who knows exactly what ship I'm talking about.)

[@candarus_collective]

as an aromantic who's sick of 100% of media being tainted by romance, and 99% of that romance being poorly written: THANK. GOODNESS. FOR THIS VIDEO.

[@kevingriffith6011]

The biggest victim of "writers can't write stable relationships" for me is Peter Parker and Mary Jane. They had to do a literal deal with the devil plotline to split the two up again so they could go back to the will-they-won't-they stage.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Ugh, _please_ don’t remind me of that. One More Day pissed me off so fucking much.

[@thecollector4332]

Kevin Griffith One more day is garbage and I hate to even think about it.

[@salad72057]

It's not even that really, it's simply a result of the really stupid status quo in comics that the then editor-in-chief forced onto Spidey which was to separate him and mj so that Spidey can be young and single again. They actually had a a good and stable relationship until one more day was forced to be written.

[@aros0018]

@@salad72057 Honestly, the fact that One More Day came at the end of J Michael Straczynski's Amazing Spider-Man just puts a lot of extra sting into how bad that change was. That man went out of his way to not only elevate Peter and MJ's relationship but even made Peter's relationship with Aunt May better and pushed Peter to be more mature. It had its ups and downs but JMS's run was very much about an adult Spider-Man, and it was forced to end by regressing him to an even more immature position than he was at the run's beginning.

[@yiklongtay6029]

It's a bad story. But I don't blame them for trying to stave off marriage. These comics have a very weird issue. They must give characters proper development but they cannot let them change so much that they lose teh status quo. Peter has to stay young and moody for decades of story telling. So writers have to give give the audience the illusion of character development without actually doing so. The accusation shouldn't be about "How dare they did it" it should be "How well can they do it"

[@Just_Some_Guy_with_a_Mustache]

Romance in fiction died for me after I stumbled across a fanfic between Cabbage Man and Katara.

[@JP-rf8rr]

Just Some Guy with a Mustache You poor soul

[@basilofgoodwishes4138]

Just Some Guy with a Mustache ew, that's....still better than Zutara.

[@awsomesaucekirby]

Just Some Guy with a Mustache the internet must be cleased with fire

[@9Godslayer]

Did it end with Katara hitting him in the cabbages?

[@Enchie]

awsomesaucekirby Their isn't enough fire in the universe to cleanse all that.

[@Bluecho4]

This is why I have so little patience for 90% of romantic subplots is media. The writers put no effort into _selling_ the romantic connection between two characters. This makes it impossible for me to invest in the romance, because I don't buy it. Ergo, I get bored of the scenes that try and fail to sell said romance, and end up feeling like the story wasted my time with them. And I don't like feeling as though a work of fiction deliberately wasted my time. It sucks.

[@vincentgraymore]

This totally depends though. I would like to see more relationships that work in media but regarding the falling in love is often better in "chick-flicks". I am not a big consumer of American romantic movies but would recommend Japanese shoujo Ai/mild yuri if you want to have "better" romantic tension. In Japan they are more extreme in many ways and one of the ways it shows is that boys are supposed to be into action and girls into romance, which is why when both leads are girls it tends to actually be something rather than just will they won't they as it often is when there is a male and female lead.

[@512TheWolf512]

That's why I hate live-action romcoms. They fucking suck, all of them

[@name_0]

i think that romantic subplots in media that isnt supposed to be centered around romance too. but you should really watch kdramas and cdramas cuz most of them are centered around romance. ps. i recommend ashes of love and sweet dreams, which are both cdramas

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

@@512TheWolf512 shonen romances are worse.

[@lahlybird895]

In my personal experience this is only true if the relationship is hetero passing Because that's just society is foregone conclusions, which don't always apply to relationships that are not boy and girl so those relationships almost always have a bit more build up to them as the author has to justify what's happening There are exceptions to this of course but that could be said about the other as well

[@pappanalab]

The assumption of love also means sometimes the romance is mindlessly written while another character and the MC develop a strong friendship. As an asexual/Demiromantic the line between friendship and romantic love is really blurry for me so seeing them as best friends who also love each other romantically is really easy because it’s also me a lot of the time.

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

Ngl I've had this issue my entire life, distinguishing platonic love from romantic love is not my strong suit but I think I've been getting better at it

[@RichardX22]

It's not an assumption of love, it's an assumption of banging. "Romantic" subplots are thinly veiled sexual subplots. For the majority of dudes, we just want the protagonist to get to bang the hottest chick in the movie.

[@nessa-parmentier]

@@airplanes_aren.t_real funnily enough, a few days ago a writing group I'm in tried to define the difference between platonic love and romantic love. None of us was able to get a distinction more meaningful than "it is what the people involved say it is".

[@justsomerandomhomie1794]

Holy shit another demiromantic.

[@ibrahimihsan2090]

Define romance by your perspective? Want me to guess? A deep emotional attachment.

[@anauthorwhoknowsnothing.9536]

"We live in a society where relationships are considered to be the norm, both in fiction and in real life. -Red. Wait. WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY?!

[@fantasyshadows3207]

How did we not notice this before? Wasn’t it blatantly obvious? *SOCIETY INTENSIFIES* Nope, not there

[@insanelyred7101]

S O C I E T Y. ( im the only red around here)

[@Eden-Eden-Eden]

@@insanelyred7101 COMING TO A DANK RIVER VALLEY NEAR YOU

[@thegoodmudkip3652]

SOCIETY STRIKES AGAIN

[@yourmother9766]

S o c I e t y

[@6ixlxrd]

A big pet peeve of mine is when a girl, often snarky and independent, falls for the "Super-Hot Bad Boy" who treats her like crap until the novel's climax so we can forget everything he did and automatically care for him, like Four from Divergent. There's literally no build-up, considering their conversations often go like this; Her: "So, you came from there too? I'm sure it must've been nice. Was it?" Him: "Who gave you permission to talk to me? Your breath stinks." *OMG! I'm in Love!*

[@aleph7056]

I find this unironically funny how the guy just says "you need permission to speak to me". Just sounds absolutely hysterical. (Just in case, I'm not being sarcastic)

[@Carbon2861996]

That's like Han and Leia.

[@synflwr]

So I made this story where there was this boy, Travis, who met this girl called Cece. They didn't get along well at first, because this was set in a magic world and Cece found out Travis was a newcomer while she was from one of the best magic families. They eventually started hanging out more, to the point where they actually made friends and got pretty close. All the signs were there, they were gonna date. Travis ended up with another girl, named Neveah. Cece was so angry she dated one of Travis's enemies, but still stayed reasonably close to Travis.

[@512TheWolf512]

It's like divergent is a piece of shit story, huh? Who would've guessed

[@aceofthorns7944]

@@512TheWolf512 What's with all the Divergent hate? They were pretty good until the last book

[@forestofstorms]

Also, its not a movie ot show, but... Percabeth. It's so good. They started out as playful twelve year olds that are kinda dorky and don't totally like each other yet, and over the next few years, they become friends, close friends, and THEN crushes. And then, over 5 books, they officially become a couple, though the kuss doesn't signify that, as they did that before. It's that they don't have to worry about fighting a whole dang war. Now, in HoO, they continue to keep a good relationship! Even though Percy's off in roman land. Annabeth is searching for Percy actively, not just "oh time to move on". Percy ONLY remembers Annabeth. When they find each other, it's touching and sweet, and then they both get thrown into Tartarus. Yet they're still a couple. Just... A couple going through literal hell. They balance each other, rely on each other, and help each other grow. Oh, and they plan on going to college together, so that's adorable.

[@PsychShrew]

> "Also, its not a movie" Let's all just agree with that statement and never look into it. Please.

[@forestofstorms]

@@PsychShrew ah... Right. Forgot about that.

[@qrowbranwen8698]

@@forestofstorms I kindly disagree with you on Percabeth personally. You're not obligated to read my rant about why, to each their own. And you're allowed to ship whoever you want. I'm not trying to police you. I just felt the need to state my personal disagreement with your ship. Rant in 3 2 1 ... I read the series at the height of my middle school experience where I yearned for love and badassery above all else, and I distinctly remember being blind sided and agitated with Percy and Annabeth for getting together. I reread it again (the original series only, I don't have time for the follow up and only really liked Nico and Jason's friendship in the Heroes of Olympus series) recently as an adult and I was blindsided by the ship again. Not for nothing, but Annabeth is often really rude, impatient and harsh with Percy when he's young and really, really confused. And Percy just sort of realizes one day that his best friend is a girl and he likes girls. They still act like best friends after they get together, because Percy still sees the relationship that way. Percy's fatal flaw is that he is always willing to sacrifice himself for his friends. He doesn't do that for Annabeth more than he does for Grover, Nico, Jason or anyone else he considers a friend. He often gets stuck with Annabeth needing saving though because even though she's hyped as confident, competent and badass, she's the one who needs the most saving out of Percy's friend group. Percy saving everyone is brushed aside by the audience though, because "he remembered Annabeth when he couldn't remember anyone else" in the Heroes of Olympus series. Honestly, it sounds like Hera/Juno or Aphrodite/Venus interfering so Percy keeps a foot dipped in the Greek pool (pool being shorthand for getting laid because those two immortal toddlers view "romantic relationships" as more important than friendships) and saves their godly asses again. And, Percy getting caught in Tartarus with Annabeth was trite from what I remember and I still blame Annabeth for the whole incident. ... Rant over. Like I said, you don't have to read my rant. I'm just... tired, in a disagreeable mood, had to bury a kitten who died earlier, and I just never liked Percabeth.

[@forestofstorms]

@@qrowbranwen8698 it's alright. I can understand your opinion, and you're entitled to have it, whether I agree or not. Honestly, any ship can be seen any way.

[@icarusthorn9739]

Qrow Branwen “I think I come off as an asshole a lot” Thou must not complain when you don the identity of bird boy himself (Jkjk no harm here)

[@skyhideaway]

can we talk about how the owl house managed to let luz and amity get together in the middle of the series and stay as a healthy couple (so far, at least)? there were a lot of situations that could have been turned into cheap drama but instead, we see both of them being honest and supportive with each other, and acting as naturally as they would with anyone else. it's really refreshing,

[@user-xb5bz4fu9o]

What I liked about Thor Ragnarok was that even with a designated male and female lead THERE WAS NO ROMANCE. It would've been easy to slide a romantic subplot in there but they had brotherly development instead

[@user-xb5bz4fu9o]

Also Chandler and Monica's relationship from friends is a good romance

[@prizriz8214]

I'm hoping to create a story in which within the lead four, which consists of 2 males and 2 females, there is absolutely no romance- and one of the characters even explicitly states she has never wanted a relationship or anything. I have the characters and main premise but no clue how to get it going.

[@ZombieChimpanzee]

there was character chemistry, but in context of the story they just weren't going to act on it and it wasn't really leaning strongly either way. Ragnarok takes place over maybe a week. and the big fight and action at the end(really all the time Thor and Valkeryie spend any meaningful or direct amount of time not in a sort of prisoner/captor situation is spent with far more important issues being delt with, the potential extinction of their people. I like when crisis overrides the romantic subplot, because let's be real, if you were in their shoes, you wouldn't want to waste time trying to further a romantic relationship when any time wasted could mean your species imminent extinction, especially with someone you've only really just met. the Thor/Valkeryie dynamic is great, since it can go either in a platonic or romantic direction, and do both believably, and they're not at all committed either way. I would like it to stay platonic though.

[@icarussbungeecord7779]

modern media could do well if it replaced most of its shoehorned romance with bromance

[@bacontheuber2499]

That girl lead was a lesbian lmao

[@reynaweasley]

Romantic subplots as portrayed in media, in a nutshell: He was a boy She was a girl Can I make it any more obvious?

[@Eerie_Peaceful_Words]

Yes make them kiss

[@darkdream1469]

Lol

[@thatjojolesbian]

there needs to be more gay romantic subplots

[@darthestar8791]

Good Sk8ter Boi reference! And yeah, that tends to be very true.

[@rushwal8692]

I know how "there was more than 1 character"

[@brynnaandersen7739]

"Writers for some reason have a really hard time writing the characters in a steady relationship." Because they've never had one

[@robinschicha4712]

George Lucas Heart 💔was broken. 😢

[@redd-qh4xn]

I never been in a relationship before so it will be hard for me, but will do it off because I too lazy for written a romance subplot.

[@immortalkitsune360]

Given the tendency for a decent percentage of marriages to end in divorce, I'm not sure many other people have either

[@zoro115-s6b]

That's quite a bit of damage.

[@salvadortoscano2534]

That was my first thought xD

[@megaalex6720]

Good romance subplot: the couple is relatable, wholesome, adorable, caring, and understanding Bad romance subplot: looks, strong, and forced... and harem

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

I think that some harem can be done well but the problem is that they are usually used so the situations the writers put the characters in doesn't feel forced

[@avelongreed3132]

A relationship isn’t all about romance,Its about the trust and care they put,Both Irl and in fiction

[@coltonwilliams4153]

Actually, I’ve read a couple series where the day to day life in a harem story was done better than most monogamous romances. One is a literal pride of lions (the guy is a lion lycan, and while only two of the women are also lionesses, the rest sure as hell act like lionesses).

[@GrassPokeKing]

@@coltonwilliams4153 Oh yeah, I'm definitely gonna need the name of that one, for my "research"

[@leonardorolingstella8554]

What's harem?

[@NoahOfTheArc]

I've found that the concept of "a romantic relationship is completely inevitable" often leads to stories where the main character actually has more chemistry with their best friend than their love interest, because the writer actually bothers to develop the friendship. In addition, the existence of strict gender roles and reused storylines may make the couple act weirdly unnatural with each other in order to fit those roles, but they act much more natural when they're with friends or family.

[@SingingSealRiana]

And thats why shipping happens ^^

[@hoodieninja4983]

And then people ship them.

[@SingingSealRiana]

@@hoodieninja4983 based on an already functioning connection.... Mostly

[@zoro115-s6b]

Just make them the same person. I mean honestly, why does every hero have a best friend they go on adventures and does reckless things with and a love interest who stays back and worries about the hero getting killed? Instead my hero has a love interest they go on adventures and do reckless things with and a mutual friend who's trying to stop them from getting themselves killed.

[@zoro115-s6b]

Actually, I'd like to expand on what I said before: Why do authors put characters with totally incompatible lifestyles in relationships? I've seen it time and again: They stick a superhero or space adventurer or other heroic adrenaline junkie with someone who's dream is to live a quiet life as a farmer or whatever. And this really doesn't strike me as a healthy basis for a relationship. If person A wants to travel the world vanquishing evil and person B wants to stay home on the farm and avoid conflict and danger where possible, their relationship is inherently going to be strained. Either they'll spend a lot of time apart as they pursue their respective lives, or one will be dragged into the other's lifestyle and end up resenting them for it. Even if they really enjoy each other's company and care deeply for one another, the compromises that they'd need to make would strain the heck out of any relationship. Most often this takes the form of a heroic male character with a female partner who often just feels like a sandbag to them, someone who constantly holds them back from doing what they want to be doing. This is obviously bad because of how it reinforces gender stereotypes, but changing around the genders doesn't fix the underlying problem. And of course, this situation sucks for the one having to stay home as well. They're worrying that their superhero partner will get killed, and they can't do anything about it. By contrast, the heroes best friend is more often an actual partner in their adventures, a vital part of their life, and someone who shares their lifestyle. Where the stay-at-home love interest is there trying to drag the hero back into a mundane life that they can't or don't want to live, their best friend is actually there supporting them and helping them be a better hero. As a result, the main character will very often come across as closer to their best friend than their designated love interest because they ARE closer. Because their best friend is actually a part of their life and can understand them in a way that, just due to their coming from different worlds, Lois Lane type love interests just can't. And this is backwards. Because of course the heroes romantic interest should be closer to them than anyone else. And that should mean that they're someone who is actively a part of their lifestyle. This post got way to damm long, TL;DR: A relationship that demands you either cut out a vital part of your life or rarely see your partner isn't a very healthy one.

[@popstarchamp]

But Terrible Writing Advice told me throwing in Love Triangles were always important.😲

[@caseywilde7931]

That is terrible advice xD A lot of cute ships I used to have made me stop shipping them since the characters started acting differently when the love triangle came and it just lost its touch. If a love triangle is done well, then it can be the most interesting thing ever but if it's done badly it becomes the worst thing ever

[@whiskeredwolf4861]

Casey Wilde /woosh

[@sydn2698]

Whiskered Wolf you edited your comment and you still messed the thread up

[@whiskeredwolf4861]

I|-SkyDon-|I whoops

[@jeythecount6546]

Visible Confusion

[@GhostPuddle]

I never thought "Kiss from a rose" in solo piano could be so compelling, even less as background music.

[@vaultedhollow]

It is very nice

[@rowan1555]

I was actually looking for this comment. I've heard this song before but couldn't quite put my finger on when/where, and somehow it didn't quite seem like it came from this. It really does fit, and I've found the song thanks to you. soo.... Thanks xD

[@curranfrank2854]

I don't even like the song but it fits really well here

[@jacobedward2401]

Yes thank you! I had heard Dan Avidan's cover so I was searching NSP songs haha, never would have found it!

[@wesleythomas7125]

"Imagine a world where every story had to incorporate a line dancing competition by law. We'd think they were all sodding bugnuts!" -Yahtzee Croshaw or romance subplots.

[@ChasoGod]

Thor - Thor and Jane become a couple Thor: The Dark World - Thor and Jane are still a couple but having relationship issues due to their very long distance Thor: Ragnarok - Thor and Jane are broken up

[@fancy3969]

Mother Hen Don’t mind me, just gonna bring up the final scene in endgame and what was implied

[@fancy3969]

Mother Hen yea no, that’s understandable lol.

[@bloodyhell8201]

@@fancy3969 wait what was implied i didn't watch it

[@fancy3969]

Bloody Hell ehhh kinda sounds weird out of context but Captain America goes back in time and married Peggy. I may be wrong since its been a while since I saw the movie but thats probably what happened.

[@AnInsideJoke]

@@fancy3969 Honestly kinda torn about it after Endgame. I mean, yes, they both very clearly deeply loved one another, but, it had been established already that Peggy in the "main" timeline (since the Russos confirmed that the timeline where Steve and Peggy were together was a seperate branch one created when he traveled back) married and had kids with a different person. That means that when Steve went back and created that alternate timeline, he erased multiple people (Peggy's kids and grandkids with unnamed other husband) from existence, PERMANETELY altering it, meaning that it still remains, and therefore is a way for yet another alternate Thanos (or a similar or even larger threat) to come through to the main one -- after two of his extremely close friends/teammates, Natasha and Tony, literally died to both set things right and save trillions, and to ensure that it could never happen again. And Steve left open a permanent doorway for just that to happen, unintentionally dishonoring their huge sacrifices (Tony even left behind a daughter who would be too young to fully remember him, for god's sake!). Yeah, the guy deserved a happy ending after everything, but, it should NOT have been through means that erase people from existence, spit on the graves of fallen comrades and puts an entire universe at risk. The way he achieved his happy ending was ultimately incredibly selfish, to the point of being out of character for him, and it kind of made the whole thing seem a bit toxic.

[@TheKersey475]

I'd say Astrid and Hiccup from "How to Train Your Dragon 2" are a good example at how to keep a couple interesting: They are still themselves, but they support each other, banter like a couple would (even down to Astrid perfectly copying Hiccup's speaking mannerisms during some cute banter), and are completely comfortable being in each other's personal space. When I was younger, my favorite romantic subplot shortcut was what tvtropes used to call "Victorious Childhood Friend" because as far as I knew; It seemed logical they'd get together after knowing each other for so long. My tastes in fiction have evolved since then, but I still have a soft spot for that trope. Hilariously, even SAO abridged poked fun at how dating sims have a similar "Becoming a Couple = Ending" storytelling; -Asuna: *After Asuna and Kirito became a couple and made "the beast with two backs'* "Soo.. What should we do now?" -Kirito' Left Brain: "FUCK!" -Kirito's Right Brain: "What the hell is she talking about?! What comes after sex?!" -Kirito's Left Brain: "I don't know! All the dating sims just go to credits at this point!" ---SAO Abridged Parody: Episode 10

[@timothymclean]

Ah, SAOA. What a great little web series, taking everything good and interesting about the original, improving or removing the bad parts, and adding stuff of their own. The platonic ideal of fanworks, or close enough. The funny thing is, Abridged!Kirito and Abridged!Asuna don't quite follow Red's advice, but they still work. They are crappy, self-centered people before the romance, and after it gets underway they stop being that...but that's because of character development caused by that relationship. And possibly also Yui.

[@karate84]

I believe that it's more like kiritos brain And kiritos "other head"

[@padfrog193]

@@timothymclean to be fair, they aren't good people afterwards either, they just love each other.

[@timothymclean]

@@padfrog193 They end up less bad than they were before. It's arguable how much of that was from the influence they had on each other, how much was them overcoming unrelated emotional baggage through Yui, and how much had nothing to do with other characters, but they end in a better emotional state than they started in.

[@doesntmatter2467]

I love those two and how Asuna doesn't just fall for Kirito because he's nice and shit. The you were nice to me so now I love you is a pretty bad way to do a relationship as being nice isn't actually an attractive trait, and once the gratitude wears off your just left with two incompatible people.

[@MagdaH97]

I accidentally wrote a pairing. This made it feel much more natural then all my other attempts at romance. It was glorious.

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

And thats how its supposed to work. Organically.

[@hyperx72]

What was it?

[@thealiplayer8736]

*Is it possible to learn this power?*

[@Munchkin.Of.Pern09]

MagdaH97 I get the feeling that might accidentally happen in a story I’m working on. Oh well. If my audience (however big that ends up) decides to ship those two, I won’t spoil their fun. I admit, I can sort of see it. Especially since there are no male leads for them to unbelievably fawn over.

[@pLanetstarBerry]

Right?! One writer to another, those moments are great! I had one story where I was going to write a deliberate love interest for a character after his arc resolved. On my way there I found he and his friend had a crap ton of chemistry during all the A plot drama and decided, hey, just write them getting together. All the friends I shared this story to ended up being super on board with it.

[@meowofender6463]

"We live in a society where relationships are considered to be the norm. both in fiction and in real life." *checks another box for the reasons I am not normal checklist*

[@nathanjereb9944]

"We live in a society..." *joker noises intensifies*

[@Vinemaple]

The thing is, they're actually not. It's just another way our society is utterly f***ed up.

[@SonofJones]

The irony is that despite not "getting" romantic relationships, you still know how to write them better than 90% of writers -_- That's probably why the romantic subplot always tend to be either one of the best parts of a story or the very worst.

[@michaelt.5672]

It actually makes perfect sense if you think about it; If Red can understand and enjoy a romantic subplot, it has cleared a high benchmark of quality. Also, the rest of us may look at characters in a romantic subplot and be unabled to tell the difference between a character being lovestruck or just plain out of character. Red on the other hand only sees the character. She describes herself as having blinders on, but I'd argue that her perspective is more of a filter. And a very useful one to look at the matter.

[@timothymclean]

Often, the best perspective is an outside one.

[@saint_silver]

Yeah pointing out mechanisms isn't the same thing as writing one. Romance is hard

[@shadowpod13]

I think it's BECAUSE she has a hard time seeing the social cues of a IRL romance or romantic subplot in a work of fiction that she went "what's all the fuss about?" Examined it, and then once she understood it and critiqued it, gave us a great break down. Some of the best people to help make something better are people who aren't supper invested or interested in the subject at hand.

[@chrisnaden3590]

"This assumption of romance" - is also the entire cause of the shipping obsession that most of fandom can't seem to put down.

[@friedegg3732]

dear god, someone please kill the shipping fandoms

[@chrisnaden3590]

@@friedegg3732 "Aphrodite does not approve this message and will be doing something epically petty about it at a time of her convenience..." I swear the fanfic community is just Aphrodite cultists...

[@CombatSportsNerd]

@@chrisnaden3590 LMFAO Where did you see that quote

[@chrisnaden3590]

@@CombatSportsNerd I didn't, that was me saying it right there 😇

[@Kami74159]

Theres normal shipping, which is pairing off two characters with no rhyme or reason and very rarely getting two characters who have chemistry by sheer dumb luck, and then theres advanced shipping, which is putting two characters together that literally couldn't ever work, period.

[@cobaltcat4227]

Also I am not going to ship two characters just because one made the other blush once or they think the other is hot You need for me to believe that they will actually be a good couple

[@FabulousJejmaze]

Joke's on you, I'm having a great time shipping everyone with everyone!

[@AmateurContendr]

@Juan Cena | THE CHAMP IS HERE I made this mistake before. Then I found out how in depth shipping goes. Shipping for real love is just one of many categories of shipping.

[@themightypancake5695]

cathy cat Finally, someone who understands my thought process behind shipping

[@ButterflyScarlet]

@Juan Cena | THE CHAMP IS HERE Shipping doesn't always mean "I want these two characters to be a couple", that's one type i.e. the OTP. Shipping can mean "these two characters have an interesting dynamic and I would be interested in seeing how that could be developed" which is how you get crackships, rarepairs, polyships, and even the more fucked up pairings. People who attack showrunners aren't exclusively shippers, shipping just happens to be more obvious since it's easier to find saucy fanart than read someone's dissertation on why Person B's development in season 3 was OOC.

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

But this ignores the fact physical attraction can be the huge difference between just friends and more than friends. Humans like to pretend we are attracted based on these deep things, but the truth is (quite often, but not always) people end up hooking up because they find each other attractive and the dating after is an experiment to see if they like each other enough to actually spend more time together and have conversations. Possibly forever. The only big fail I find with fiction is that often when characters are very incompatible despite physical attraction, the story rarely allows them to realize they are a bad match. Instead they play the opposite attraction = love forever card even where it doesn't make sense.

[@oricalu448]

Alternative title: Red being the most relatable ace for 15 minutes straight

[@nathanjereb9944]

Diamond or Heart

[@oricalu448]

@@nathanjereb9944 idk, I know these things have meanings (like i think hearts means demi?) but I always forget. I usually just go with spades cos it looks cool

[@thomasfplm]

I'm not ace and I can relate with that.

[@Rain-nm1ee]

@@thomasfplm idk why people made this about sexuality when the video was more about badly written romance…

[@sunflowermink3110]

I'm just going to let this out but why do whenever someone says something not straight they get viewed as part of the LBTG+ community by other people it's not your fault

[@RHKang-hl3ps]

Rick Riordan is surprisingly amazing at sub romantic plots, in terms of the elements set up in the video. "The big kiss" for the main couple happens near the end but like 90% of the time they would have already kissed before (actually I think all of them). The pining is always fluffy and all but the friendship and general trust between couples before becoming cannon is pretty convincing. If the relationships are explored in later series or books (such as the couples in Heroes of Olympus) they are still consistent in characterization, just that they finally don't have to be so awkward around each other and have genuinely great moments together. This is just an excuse to explain why Percabeth will always make me soft, TBH.

[@alilordoftheskies5079]

Uncle Rick is just a great writer. The only thing I dislike is that almost everyone is in a relationship. And the ones that aren't (like Reyna, Thalia, and Rachel) have all had crushes/lovers in the past, so that kills that. I think the only ones that are saved from that are Bianca and Zoe and that's because they're dead TT. Rip.

[@annemariepedersen9220]

@@alilordoftheskies5079 and huntresses

[@alilordoftheskies5079]

@@annemariepedersen9220 Them too but I was mostly referring to the relevant ones lmao

[@alilordoftheskies5079]

@Solangelo Fan Same. I wish we had them for just a little longer.

[@MichaRoden]

I'm not even into fandoms, I just like to read books, but man I would spend DAYS watching Percabeth memes and reading stories. Their chemistry is so good even 13 y.o. fangirls can write compelling stories about those two

[@llamasrock2284]

This makes me really appreciate Kim and Ron in Kim Possible.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Same here

[@supreme_king_obama1158]

Ah, another man of culture I see. *looks at comments* ah, two men of culture I see.

[@Luke_Danger]

And yet people keep insisting that Kim should be romantically attracted to the supervillainess who has tried to blend her into cookie batter rather than the actually rather wholesome relationship that was built over twelve years of slow burn growth and friendship before making a jump forward that very well may not have happened nor was written as inevitable in the show either.

[@patrickhf8298]

I just loved the "A kiss from a rose" song in the background 👏👏👏

[@GeneralNonsense]

Thank you.

[@unformedeight]

Thank you, I remembered too little for google to be of any help, thanks for the save.

[@username12120]

I can't not notice it now... or keep myself from singing along.

[@fromthe4621]

Merci beaucoup

[@adamlackseverything]

I liked it too, it reminds me of how she used this song during every single romantic moment in the Miscellaneous Myths, at least in the early ones

[@emeraldtree13]

Another thing with romantic subplots is that often the main character’s love interest, as compared to the MC or other major characters, doesn’t get much development or growth or agency; the love interest is sometimes limited or defined by that role. And even if the love interest does get development, the audience is often conditioned to view that character through the MC’s point of view, rather than seeing the love interest for their own merits. It’s an unfortunate trend.

[@avelongreed3132]

This is why i like Amity Blight from The Owl House,She has her own arc,backstory,and development,And a whole load of it,She’s her own character,Not just Luz’s love interest

[@shigginsshiggins2954]

There's this musical called "Spies are Forever" that has a whole song that makes fun of forced romantic subplots. After the two main characters do trauma bonding they start to think the other person is falling in love with them, so they go along for the ride until at the end of the song they realize having a relationship couldn't work. I just think that's how every forced romantic subplot should work.

[@frankieverona5353]

which song?

[@shigginsshiggins2954]

@@frankieverona5353 "(I guess we're) doing this"

[@squashfei8907]

THATS WHAT I WAS GONNA COMMENT

[@ShaunTripp]

Tbf it’s more because the main character is gay than that they don’t work as a relationship. The song then points out that they’re good friends now just not sexually attracted to each other.

[@aweirdoandaphone4135]

*whispers* Spieeeeees areee foreeeeever

[@1B1ueyedwo1f]

"I am exactly the wrong person to talk about how people in real established relationships work." *Proceeds to give sound advice for maintaining a real established relationship*

[@kingusernamelxixthemagnificent]

I knew Shrek 2 was a masterpiece.

[@matthewmuir8884]

One of only a few sequels that's just as good, if not better than the first.

[@discmanthecdlord]

Of course it is

[@catherinemoul9160]

Fun fact! My ela class watched shrek 2 in a vote. We're middle schoolers. It was... interesting

[@RandomSkyeRoses]

@@matthewmuir8884 The film was very mature for a kids comedy film

[@Someone-or8tp]

@Schaffrillas Productions

[@LadyOMyth]

I feel that a lot of romantic subplot problems are mostly in movies and sometimes when it's transferred from book to movie, they tend to screw things up. For an example, in the Percy Jackson movies, they aged up the characters and essentially created romantic tension between Percy and Annabeth from the beginning to get the audience interested in them, right out telling them "Hey, this is who you're rooting for." (The movies also screamed: "Hey, I know they're supposed to be 12 and 12 year olds might be watching this movie, but those two are totally banging off stage and Grover's sleeping with EVERYONE.") It wasn't even done well and was nothing like the books at all. Where, when Rick Riordan wrote it, they start out as two 12 year old kids who aren't focused on relationships but on their tasks and just staying alive. He spaced their development going from strangers to friends to lovers in the span of five books. He saved it for the end of the series, but he also brought them back in his second series which, honestly, worked out well since you later got to see what Percy and Annabeth are like as a couple. The movies, though, ruined that whole thing, one of the many reasons why they stopped after two movies. Harry Potter actually did a better job at the relationship between him and Ginny although they didn't show as much as they did in the books and changed the part where Harry breaks up with her at the end of book six to protect her. I love romantic subplots but movies just get it so wrong in so many ways.

[@asexualbert7262]

Fact: I am actively writing a story where two characters keep being put into common romantic tropes and actively NOT ending up in a relationship. (We love a platonically tactile relationship)

[@julianahill8959]

I actually love this, it's like my relationship between me and my friendship group, everyone assumes I'm dating one of them (or all of them) because we follow a lot of typically romantic 'ideas' while completely platonic. I mean we are all closer than friendship typically is but its strange how certain 'plots' in life are seen as typically romantic even though the romance seems to come out of no where.

[@snortlaxatives]

I'm doing something similar. One character in something I'm writing will reference someone who sounds like a significant other who is really just a friend just to put up a middle finger to the idea that romance is required for a compelling story.

[@SingingSealRiana]

Whowhooo! Love that too. Love is not solely reserved for romance!

[@SingingSealRiana]

I have to characters marrie out of convinience and to be eachothers emergency contact . He stil goes of sleeping around, to come back sleeping next to her against her nightmares. Also that way they get around people questioning there closeness for trying to answer that just ones all wierd cans of wormes

[@SingingSealRiana]

@@julianahill8959 Same, writing eachother letters for vanentine, sleep in one bed, cuddle all close and sometimes meaningless flirting for it is just so much fun without all the hasty implications usualy hound to it

[@yellowstarctc1241]

This opening paragraph was brought to you by the Asexual Gang

[@AnthanKrufix]

Too true

[@tiagob6696]

Imagine having the need to be in a relationship. This meme was made by Aro Ace Gang

[@redrowlet5481]

Imagine having first-hand experience in romantic and sexual relationships that you've actually felt invested in and using that knowledge to understand the romantic and sexual relationships of others. This meme was made by aroace gang

[@susannam3923]

It's so weird for me because I'm also ace (hi) and on-screen relationships have always had the exact opposite effect on me. I just go 'relationship? oh ok cool sure' without ever questioning if two people actually fit together and then if someone actually breaks up (like with korra and mako) I'm really confused even if all the signs were there that it wasn't working at all. I think I just got used to not understanding the reasoning behind certain couples being together and when someone does actually apply logic to that kind of situation it doesn't sit well with me lol

[@hattyee205]

BIG ace energy

[@ragingmonkeycritic]

“Subplot over” “Achievement unlocked” I love it

[@ConnanTheCivilized]

Particularly as most achievements have you do idiotic busywork that would make absolutely 0 sense canonically. Just like a forced romance subplot!

[@StarkSpider24]

This hits different when you play a game and after romancing a character they just go back to acting like some type of NPC 🥲

[@blueninjakick5387]

I used to try to avoid romance subplots, thinking they just weren't my thing. But one story I read had a romantic subplot that I absolutely loved every second of, simply because it made so much sense. It was then I realize It wasn't that I didn't like romance, it's that most of the romance subplots I had seen were just forced and bad overall.

[@reisatsuki5891]

Same, I thought I hated romance subplots or any romance story at all. Apparently it's just that these generic romance are just well, poorly written.

[@questionmarkquestionmarkques]

what was the story called

[@corrat4866]

Red: points out actual flaw in Attack of the Clones Me and my meme mind: “it’s treason then”

[@memerboi7128]

Nah mate execute order 66

[@christopherbennett5858]

@Tom Ffrench And out of both grief and desperation on Anakin's part. What is crazy though is how 8 and 9 yoyo arguably one of the most disturbing relationships and play it straight.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

Ugh... I'm so done with Harem-Building and the Concept of Harems; Real-Life or Fiction or whatever.

[@pjlusk7774]

@Tom Ffrench Part of me thinks "it's maybe a plot point that this relationship is obviously bad" in a different way. I'm on board with the theory that Anakin is so powerful with the Force that he's (probably accidentally and without really meaning to) using it to subtly manipulate Padme into being in the relationship at all.

[@MartaTarasiuk]

I do believe that troubles with writing a relationship in media reflects a big problem with how romantic love is viewed in modern society. Since we're very young we're being told that finding so called "true love" is not only something amazing but also necessary, since it will make our life whole. At the same time we don't really get much information on what exactly said "true love" is and how to maintain it once we are in a confirmed relationship.

[@danescott2188]

I can't agree more, Marta. It's worth remembering, I think, that everything modern Western culture thinks of as love was viewed as an infectious disease of the mind back in ancient Greece. Eros drove you crazy, so you had to keep it under control. For the record I'm not suggesting we embrace the values of ancient Greece... because misogyny is bad, among other things.

[@MartaTarasiuk]

I'm afraid I cannot really get on this whole "love is a disease" train, since I never experienced love that would fit such description.

[@danescott2188]

I agree completely, though for different reasons. I suppose I was just trying to indicate that our perception and understanding of love as a society is not universal, and relatively recent in the grand scheme. I apologize if my clumsy attempts at expression have offended you.

[@MartaTarasiuk]

Oh, now O understand! Don't worry, you didn't offend me, just confused quite a bit.

[@danescott2188]

Oh, good. I was worried for a moment there. I tend to try rather hard to come off as a not-jerk on the internet. As for being confusing... Yeah, I'm told I have that effect on people.

[@Silly-Slacker-Person]

I hate it when characters become couples and everything that was interesting about them disappears and they basically become every sitcom couple ever "WAHHH YOU FORGOT THIS IMPORTANT THING" "WAHHH YOU NAG ME ALL THE TIME" One wacky mishap later and they are calling each other sappy nicknames and the next episode it happens all over again It's especially bad when I actually wanted them to be together at first

[@bluesbest1]

That sounds a lot like Ron/Hermione.

[@happytortoisee]

0:01 red being an oblivious ace icon for 16 minutes

[@Absolutetomfoolerie]

I’m reading wings of fire right now and I really enjoy how they handle the romance between sunny and starflight. Starflight was in love with her for years and years, and everyone knows except for her because she’s a bit oblivious. Right before the huge fight of the first arc, he tells her because he thinks he’ll never see her again. And she’s actually reacts pretty badly, like “now?? Seriously??” And after the fight she explains that she loves him as a brother but really just doesn’t see him that way. And it’s never brought back and rekindled. She just honestly rejects him and they still care about eachother a ton and stay good friends. Which is true to her character, she doesn’t seem interested in romance at all. And starflight grows from it and is able to learn to stop valuing himself by what she thinks of him. I just haven’t seen that happen in fiction and I found it more interesting. Okay dragon book rant over thank u

[@akashitapalaniswami5798]

yup, it really helped me cheer for them as characters, and allows starlight to get rid of his overly obsessive crush and move on. Plus, i loved the book from sunny's perspective cuz it finally showed who she was relative to the dragon everyone thought they must protect cuz she was a clutz and 'harmless'. there was a lot of strength in her compassion.

[@lifeontheledgerlines8394]

Wings of Fire is a surprisingly well-written series ngl I might start rereading it

[@manicseacucumbers4194]

Tbh i hate the wof ships. I cant stop shrieking whenever they have a moment

[@silverstar4505]

another thing I really like about the romantic subplots is that they're ACTUALLY subplots, as in characters constantly remind themselves that they have better things to do. man i love that series :) if Tui can make me not suffer in a romantic subplot, she has a bright future

[@c4tfsh8]

Definitely. I mean, that one was so well written, it actually blindsided me! I really like the kinda open relationship that Starflight has with Fatespeaker (whether it's just platonic or not is up for debate, but I digress). And while I don't hate/love either of the ships with Starflight, it's interesting to see how little emphasis Tui puts on these subplots. Out of all the romantic subplots I had seen throughout the series, I'd say that the most obvious one is the Willow and Sundew plot (followed closely by Blue and Cricket, but take that with a grain of salt bc my opinion and so on). Even then, said subplot was incredibly good on my eyes because both Willow and Sundew stayed mostly the same aside from some character development. An obvious plot isn't always a bad one. And Willow and Sundew both work on how they feel about anger while Sundew is still incredibly prickly on the outside. Seeing her internal thoughts confirmed what many characters had thought about her from the beginning, she was nice on the inside, and just needed someone to break the barriers. That someone happened to be Willow and even when she was just barely introduced, she felt like the same character, with or without Sundew. Anyways, I should probably stop before I type a full essay on how much I love the subplots and characters in Wings of Fire. Hope whoever is reading this has a good day, and sorry for taking so much space!

[@TheNinjaDC]

This is one of the reasons I loved Kim Possible's 5th season. We actually get to see them date as a couple for a whole season. It didn't just end in a dance/kiss.

[@demmybane]

Man, I haven’t thought about Kim Possible in forever

[@merrybright5732]

To be honest although I get why people would consider this relationship better than most others I still think Kim Possible would have been 100x better if they hadn't ended up together.

[@AlexAzureOtaku]

that show is gold for so many reasons

[@arielfetters5662]

Actually prior to the 5th season, there was no plan by Disney to have Ron and Kim get involved. They were designed to be BFF's forever. The romance plot was forced on them to quiet Kim/Shego shippers.

[@merrybright5732]

@@arielfetters5662 but the Kim/Shego shippers kept going? It's not like fandom sees a straight couple and goes "ah yes why would we ever question anything our mighty creators think? Time for us to all be straight now!" Also idk why they felt the need to address that anyway, its not like parents can blame the studio for what the fandom likes

[@chrs-wltrs]

I'd argue that there ARE instances where you should have a character change characterization when they're in a relationship: when it's an unhealthy relationship. And sometimes, it's good to show that stuff like that is unhealthy.

[@josephrasche7194]

Sure, but that would require the writers *know* that such a relationship is unhealthy, and the odds of that just... aren't very high. Society has not yet progressed to the point where you can be reasonably certain that you can describe romantic or spousal abuse and have people be more likely to recognize it as such than not. It *can* be done, but it's not overly likely unless that's something that the writer both has experience with *and* explicitly intends to show on-screen, so it doesn't often make it into discussions like this because it's just not a very common thing for people to try and do. Not to mention, some forms of media just don't lend themselves to this particular concept. Movies have relatively little runtime compared to most other forms of media, and therefore have a hard time justifying devoting space to establishing chemistry, putting people in a relationship, showing that it's toxic, and then having one or more characters realize it and break up, unless that is explicitly and directly the movie's central plot. A TV show or even a decently-long video game is a lot more likely to be able to handle that kind of thing as a romantic subplot.

[@darabounds6671]

I crave a romantic story with a good and healthy on going romance. I need that wholesome love story

[@yourlocalmethaddict]

Then go watch the owl house, lumity is so good

[@jillianh7565]

Here’s a story my friend and I are playing out in a dnd game: Basically our characters are both nobles from different countries/domains. We met in Barovia and at first my character, Zelda Alagondar, didn’t trust this guy, Alexander Von Roeyen (Zarovich line). Note: Strahd Von Zarovich is the final boss or BBEG of the campaign; he’s basically the equivalent to Count Dracula. Anyway Alexander is the youngest of Strahd’s brothers and is also a vampire. Known as the forgotten prince of Barovia, Alexander wants nothing more then to see his oldest brother defeated and his legacy restored. The subplot between Zelda and Alexander began when the two characters realized they made a pretty good team after working together to tame a bird and start a Barovian militia. They started becoming close friends, often confiding in each other or helping each other while adventuring. Eventually Zelda realized her life was in danger and asked Alexander to protect her almost 24/7, becoming an unofficial bodyguard for the princess. Interestingly he decided to do this without hesitation and this act of selflessness went noticed by Zelda. Additionally Alexander taught Zelda how to have fun. For a while in the story Zelda would only think of her duty to Neverwinter. As heir to the throne her goal was to make political alliances either through marriage or negotiations. Alexander taught her that violence is sometimes necessary and sometimes you need to think of yourself first and life can be fun. Likewise, Zelda taught Alexander that he isn’t living in the shadow of his older brother and can create his own legacy if only he embraced his identity as the prince of Barovia. She empowers him to be his best self. As of now Alexander has begun to court Zelda. He often stays by her side and whenever she is in danger he rushes to the rescue. Just the other day our group made up a werewolf attack as an assassination attempt on Zelda’s life. Alexander, using his vampire abilities, came to Zelda’s aid and stopped the attack. While Zelda was frightened after seeing Alexander the vampire, she was still grateful he saved her from the werewolf. In fact one of the most entertaining things about this relationship is that both Zelda and Alexander could kill each other very easily: Zelda with the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind and Alexander could turn or kill Zelda with his vampiric abilities. This creates an interesting dynamic with the prophecy our dm set up because I need to be mortal to kill Strahd. There is an 80% chance Alexander could kill or turn me, making the prophecy obsolete. This means we have to prolong this relationship because it will end in tragedy.

[@trazyntheinfinitearchivist7866]

Brooklyn 99 does love stories in a fantastic and mature way. Much recommended

[@ibrahimihsan2090]

Watch the Addams family(preferably the 1960s show). The main couple is quite passionate(though still G-rated) but very wholesome with tons of awesome moments.

[@iridescentaurora268]

THANK YOU for showing Anakin and Padme as the BAD example! I couldn’t STAND that dynamic! I genuinely don’t understand how Anakin’s creepy persistence managed to work on Padme, if I were in her shoes, I’d be asking for a different body guard. On the other hand, I love the romantic subplot in “Castle.” 🥰

[@Jake007123]

I think the idea is since she has so many political power and being so strong willed, not asking for a replacement is supposed to be a clue about that she actually kinda have her own desires for Anakin. But the romantic plot on those movies is the worst anyway, and it's super forced and artificial.

[@WerewolfRiver]

That's what you get when someone is going through a divorce while trying to write romantic dialogue.

[@nathanielclaw2841]

Because making girls wet by talking about sand and child murder is a power only the chosen one has

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

Because Luke and Leia had to be born. 😅 Really the only reason, if the prequels had to stand on there own merits...never would have worked out.

[@thestormwizard6447]

There’s a theory where Anakin accidentally used Jedi Mind Tricks to make Padme fall in love with him, which makes sense honestly. Maybe that’s the reason that the Jedi forbid relationships within their order in the first place, so shit like that doesn’t happen.

[@kayeherl9195]

I really love pacific rim for doing that. I was cheering when they didn't make out, because the assumption that every male and female that exists together in a story when they are both attractive and of similar age, will get together, is ridiculous. I've had great friendships with people who are of the opposite gender and similar age and I value those more than I would have if we'd ended up hooking up.

[@villagirl2107]

I get what you mean,( I don't ship them either) and I agree its good to show that a guy and a girl can be friends despite looking like they can be a couple throughout the movie, but I think the reason some people want them to be a couple is BECAUSE they work so well, and actually have a healthy relationship with each other. Most romances in other movies aren't nearly as well-written, and usually come across as unhealthy or at the very least boring with no build-up and without an actual reason that they might be a good couple. Therefore, when a GOOD guy/girl pairing is presented, like in Pacific Rim, it seems like a waste that they DIDN'T end up as a couple, because Hollywood (espescially action movies) is so lacking in healthy and well-written romance. The same thing can be said with Judy and Nick from Zootopia.

[@jarred110]

It’s easy to be friends with the opposite who you don’t find attractive (and I don’t mean in the objective sense)

[@ChasehaWing]

One of my favorite current romances is actually Jake and Amy from B99. At first it seems it's going to go the "goofy man child wants serious girl trope." But then it subverts that in 2 ways. The first is that Amy is SUPER funny and has a great sense of humor. She may be orderly while he's disorganized. But the two from the beginning to the current end of the show always keep a civil and good nature humor going. And more than that if they do go to far in their reading or insults they are always quick to apologize and NOT do it again. The second way it subverts it is by not having them get together for 2 seasons and even having the 2 date many different people during that time. Both casually and very seriously. Both acquiring 1 long serious relationship and not breaking it up over the other both times. It's really cool! Finally when they do get together their characters stay the same and their chemistry only gets better the longer they stay together! The things that gave them a great friendship are the same things that made their romance enticing. This to me, IS ROMANCE DONE PERFECTLY! But yeah take away, I love when shows keep the romance going and explore what that is for the characters and how it evolves them. And B99 didn't do this just once, but with all its characters every time it addressed romance subplots. So yeah. Top Tier show.

[@tinmanlobster]

jake and amy is probably the *only* proper relationship in media that i've seen and i thought "hey, that actually makes sense". i just love it, and i didn't even get bored at the marriage part. that's some good writing. and then how they addressed the boyle/rosa thing from s1, how boyle was able to completely get over his infatuation with her and they could still stay,, 'friends'.

[@McJethroPovTee]

NINE NINE!!!!

[@turtleboy1188]

Oh brooklyne 99

[@tomon5598]

ChasehaWing Best couple ever portrayed in any TV show, book, video game, movie, heck anything!

[@matthewmuir8884]

Another way it subverts it is that, ultimately, they are both goofy: Jake is the typical kind of goofy, while Amy is the "teacher's pet" kind of goofy: she tries to be serious, but it falls flat in an endearing way.

[@Telawin]

one of my favorite examples of a romantic relationship in fiction done well is Kim possible. the writers actually decided that they'd get over the "new relationship" phase pretty quickly and so we actually get to see that drama that comes from trying to sustain a relationship. and we even get to see our romantic characters trying to better themselves for the sake of the relationship. like when Ron joins the football team because he thinks Kim would like him better if he was a jock you'd think would be a one off episode but no. he stays in it until the end of the series because he finds he's surprisingly good at it... due to his experience running away from things. perfect having a character stay in character even after the relationship starts