Trope Talk: Romantic Subplots

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It's a subplot! It's romantic! It's one of the hardest things to write convincingly, despite being one of the most relatable experiences ever to be put to fiction! What the heck is up with that? And am I at all qualified to speak on the subject with any degree of authority? (No!)
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[@BlackShadowUchiha]

Red talking about how she doesn’t really understand relationships kinda made me think of when Goku agreed to marry Chi-chi because he thought marriage was a type of food

[@lifeontheledgerlines8394]

I've never watched DBZ, but that sounds actually amazing

[@CobaltChono]

@LifeOnTheLedgerLines | That was og dragon ball

[@Vinity16]

Can confirm that episode. Man that guy is not qualified to be a husband or dad.

[@othelliusmaximus]

Ironically the creator Toriyama admitted he didn't know how to write romantic subplots either.

[@therestinghornet6906]

I mean the man got cake didnt he?

[@yaz9292]

tip from my professor: if they have to kiss for you to know that they're in love you're doing it wrong

[@rahmanmoncatar9675]

Your professor has a good point

[@justfriendly7676]

Whose your professor? I obviously would enjoy his class.

[@Azzabackam]

THIS IS REALLY GOOD

[@ANOimity1029]

Follow this advice. A good example : Castle. That series had amazing charecter, amazing chemistry and audience literally waited on pins n needles for relationship to kick off. And it was most natural thg to follow thru

[@marions.3657]

* cough * ineffable husbands * cough*

[@Queen1001N]

Another tip, if you go with the idea that “opposites attract” it is important to remember that opposites can attract IF they’re complimentary to each other. For example, a person who likes to nurture and a person who likes to be nurtured might find each other attractive. However, a person who enjoys only loud rock music and a person who enjoys only soft classical music, might not find each other attractive.

[@wordforger]

Exactly. Introvert can be happy with the extrovert if the extrovert shields them from having to deal with too many people at once. Meanwhile extrovert gets a partner that they can dive deep with. And while the loud rock and classical person might not necessarily get along... They might both be music lovers who can meet in the middle.

[@ChristophelusPulps]

Your point is well made, but ironically, there is a lot of crossover between metalheads and lovers of classical music.

[@wikkrmusic]

yngwie: am i a joke to you?

[@notactuallyacat.]

@@wikkrmusic Existence of an exception does not disprove the literary rule

[@wikkrmusic]

@@notactuallyacat. true, true, lol

[@coilsothersniper7784]

"I personally have enormous trouble recognising when two people are in a relationship" That's a mood. I didn't notice two of my friends were together for SEVEN MONTHS.

[@Ismael-kc3ry]

They didn’t tell you?

[@kirbyfazendoummoonwalk9214]

@@Ismael-kc3ry maybe they just assumed he realised

[@Ismael-kc3ry]

@@kirbyfazendoummoonwalk9214 damn

[@drscavv2661]

4 years. Take the L

[@MK-bj8pd]

@@Ismael-kc3ry keeping it a secret from mutual friends can be pretty fun in my experience. Though highly suggest that if the relationship ends so does the secret because not being able to tell people why you feel like shit sucks a lot.

[@TGE420]

My favourite fictional couple is wall-e and eve

[@alilordoftheskies5079]

A man of culture.

[@ricardo.compere8504]

They barely say words are from different worlds and show each other affection while being presented as machines gotta love that kind of nuance

[@jeffbenton6183]

@@ricardo.compere8504 Words can only do harm...

[@hrithik6323]

My fave non binnery couple

[@jacobsheehan9715]

@@hrithik6323 really?

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

Anakin let a romantic subplot destroy him.

[@Crick1952]

Obi-Wan Kenobi He was the Choosen one! He was supposed to destroy the romantic subplot, not get one!

[@rowan1809]

General Kenobi!

[@CatBetaBellanri1218]

And now Luke is absolutely horrified and scared living a life of seclusion. Because he's seen this powerful trope only once before, and if it didn't scare him then it certainly scares him now....

[@user-nw1je1ur6t]

Taylor Kane this is simply the best responce

[@1Heirborn]

The Rose x Finn relationship certainly scares me now

[@pappanalab]

“I don’t get romance” You’ve summoned the Aro/Aces

[@nathanjereb9944]

How did I get here?

[@charlykoparabola7940]

nooo, not the R word!!

[@nathanjereb9944]

@@charlykoparabola7940 *hissssss*

[@insanitycrafter8553]

Romance is for nerds

[@asolomoth1066]

Valentine's Day just means I get to buy *all the chocolate for myself!*

[@mihael5722]

I think one of the best examples of a series doing well at continuing a relationship is How To Train Your Dragon. They get together in the first movie, and then in the second movie they've both clearly changed and grown, and you can see how their relationship has become very relaxed and comfortable, and it follows into the final movie where they continue to love and support each other and in the end they get married and have children they clearly love. They've stayed together, both feel natural, and get a satisfying ending

[@tortis6342]

And it's such a great pairing to watch on screen. When Astrid is braiding little pieces of Hiccup's hair it just makes me go aww every time. They are one of my favorite types of couple: competent on their own, but better together.

[@OverlyPositiveFanboy]

Funnily enough, if you include the TV show and specials as canon, then they don't actually get together after the first film. It's at least three more years until they make things official, despite multiple on-the-lip kisses. No wonder everyone could see it.

[@ethancoltrane5754]

This!! I'm gay and Hiccstrid and Dax x Worf from DS9 are the only straight couples in fiction that consistently make me squee like a dumb fangirl.

[@octogonSmuggler]

A better example is Lord of the Rings. Arwen and Aragon have a perfect romantic subplot. The story mentions it. They spend a few minutes on it throughout both the movies and the books. Then it returns at important times and at the end. Sam has a crush on a cute Hobbit girl. It's mentioned at the beginning of the first movie, once in the second, and they get married in the third. Perfect. The romance is not as important as the plot, and people always forget this fact. There's not a need for everything to have it at the forefront. The fact that the romance takes the farthest seat at the back is so important and most stories and shows don't seem to understand this.

[@esobelisk3110]

@@octogonSmuggler i mean, sure, if that’s what you prefer, but some stories thrive with a romance as a major subplot, and some audiences enjoy that. how much space you want the romance to take up in the story is an issue of preference, not writing quality.

[@lyreparadox]

"We live in a society where relationships are considered to be the norm, both in fiction and in real life." -Red But we also live in a society where we seem to have a really hard time writing healthy relationships. Well that explains a lot.

[@ulrikahaggard9923]

We live in a 🅱️ociety

[@sophiaredwood5825]

👏

[@chancellor500]

That really does make since.

[@hi.241]

Hands down

[@hopelesslyoptimistic8231]

Healthy relationship aren’t interesting enough. Usually it feels like the characters don’t love each other enough but in that story they do. It’s a like a healthy relation in real life they don’t show that much affection but it is there subconsciously. Toxic relationships are tragic and more spontaneous relationships are more romantic. A healthy relationship is cute but for it to play into your story and gain large audience approval (which is the goal of most relationships in stories) the relationship has to intriguing and wanted by the audience. The problem is while shipper are the majority of a fanbase they are also annoying because if they don’t get what they want or feel like the writers aren’t teasing them enough that it could happen then they will not like the story. I think the best way to write relationships is to have the planned out. Know that the audience are going to want these two characters and their relationship unpredictable that way it’s not cheesy for the people who don’t care and for the people who do care are always wondering if the ship will one day come true.

[@MogofWar]

I don't think the people in Hollywood even know what a healthy relationship looks like.

[@hiimchrisj]

You know if we're being completely honest that's probably a fair assessment on account of how often breakups and divorces happen in Hollywood.

[@timothymclean]

And let's not get started on the sexual harassment. And assault. Yeesh.

[@jonathansoriano3568]

Okay but anime relationship give me more confidence in their relationships than my own(chuunibyou, love is war, and sound of your voice)

[@MogofWar]

@@jonathansoriano3568 Anime are usually written by people nowhere near the Hollywood Bubble.

[@jonathansoriano3568]

@@MogofWar i used the tone in that comment wrong but i am just saying lets look at the bright side and appreciate good relationships in media despite it being oceans away😂

[@yiklongtay6029]

It really feels like the fact that Red's asexual didn't impede her ability to comprehend romantic subplots. It just made her have high standards as a connoisseur of romantic subplots.

[@wordforger]

As an aro-ace lady meself, I think I've probably examined the whole romance/relationship thing just as much if not more than a lot of romantic/allosexual people. I had to because it doesn't come 'naturally' to me and everyone's been going on about it my whole life. Examining these relationships from an outside 'objective' viewpoint makes it clear what works and what doesn't. So yeah, I can appreciate relationships where the relationship is built up on friendship and mutual understanding since that is basically how how all good relationships work, romantic or platonic. What annoys me are the ones built on "we are of compatible orientations and you're hot, let's do it." Because 'hotness' simply doesn't register, so it's easier to look past that to the inherent flaws of the relationship.

[@deadersurvival4716]

@@wordforger As a demi-ace, I can confirm. Just because I don't inherently understand most of the hints (especially since they've never been directed at me), doesn't mean that I can't identify how actual healthy relationships work. It's a mutual give and take, with communication, respect, understanding, and (who would have guessed) affection. The problem, as Red and J W have said, is that very few relationships in media are done that well, due to them being built on "you're hot, let's f*** outside a Wendy's", when that's just not how healthy relationships are built. (That being said, one night stands are fine as long as both sides have a choice in the matter and both sides know that it's a one night stand. Don't use a relationship to drag people along, and don't think that someone saying 'yes' is consent, remember to consider whether they have the option to say no.) Worse yet, most relationships that actually are commitment based tend to be a supporting character having a relationship with the main character without any semblance of reciprocation past sharing a bed, house, or a handful of kisses. For anyone that reads this, regardless of whether you're writing a relationship, looking for one, or are actually in one; remember that for a relationship to be healthy, BOTH members have to be able to operate in a healthy space, especially when their partner is involved. And that applies to any relationship; dating, marriage, friendship, parent/child, siblings, boss/employee, teammates, or any other form of interpersonal interaction. Relationships should NEVER be one sided. Both partners don't have to show their sides in the same way, but both sides do have to show in a relationship that works for them AND their partner. Whether that's constant hugs, supporting your partner through crisis, or even asking your partner what they want to eat even if you know that they'll give you a non-answer.

[@KoylTrane]

Not ace, still think that most romantic subplots are bullshit.

[@osteelgen8225]

Oh she’s ace ok that explains it

[@Takejiro24]

@@deadersurvival4716 Me being an aspiring writer for two asexual characters in a relationship: *Write that down, WRITE THAT DOWN!*

[@carmenmercedes9903]

I wrote a story once, and while I wouldn't say the main character was aro, she could be read that way. Anyway, she didn't have any romantic interests, but once I sent the story to my friends to see what they thought, these were the responses: "Is she polyamourous?" "Is she dating EvErYoNe or just Luke?" "Is she bi? It seems like she likes Luke AND Mary." They really thought that she MUST have a relationship because that's how stuff works, and it just really grinds my gears! (yes i know how old that made me sound lol)

[@Dragon_Fire_2468]

Did you explain it to your friends?

[@carmenmercedes9903]

@@Dragon_Fire_2468 yea

[@meh4315]

I know this was posted a long time ago, but would you mind dropping the name of the book? Or some kind of plot summary?

[@carmenmercedes9903]

@@meh4315 Oh, it was just a story for school. It's not posted anywhere. It was basically about this girl who was forced into an arranged marriage with the king even though she doesn't want to be married. She spends the story trying to kill the king so she can abdicate the throne, but nothing works. (She's not good with swords, he's been taking a bit of poison everyday so now he's immune, etc.) Eventually he tries to have shrex with her against her will, and she freaks out and suffocates him. It dawns on her that she'll go to prison of anyone finds out it was her, so she panics the next morning and blames her best friends. (Luke and Mary)

[@spencervance8484]

I once tried writing and bounce ideas off my sister. Apparently my descriptions and words were too big for her and she told me to "dumb down my writing"

[@johang7725]

Anybody think that Aphrodite would be mad at this and Artemis is just like "They get me"

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Oh, definitely!

[@zoro115-s6b]

Aphrodite is one of those people who ships characters that have never even spoken and have a 99% chance of hating each other if they did, and insists that they're perfect for each other because, you know, they're both pretty!

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Sayer Glasgow Pretty much.

[@zoro115-s6b]

@@RickyUzumaki993 Are... Are you Hermes? Because that reply was fast as fuck.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Sayer Glasgow Lol. No, I’m not Hermes. I wish I was.

[@Hazy_Heart]

I don't know why but I just wanted to say All your characters that you draw all have such majestic hair

[@fernandorivera4719]

Fluffy as fuck

[@niklavsveiksans8432]

Mostly why I watch

[@eliad6543]

*F L U F F Y*

[@xirensixseo]

its the besttt

[@robina.c.6380]

RIGHT?? I'd like to write a story for every character she shows us!

[@justanothernerd6714]

It’s incredible that Luz and Amity from The Owl House have so far managed to nail every point that Red lists for representing a positive relationship. It’s one that’s built up naturally over time, they don’t act like different characters when they’re around each other, and so far, the show is doing a good job of presenting an ongoing relationship now that they’re actually dating. At the time of writing this comment, Eclipse Lake is the most recent episode, and I’m really excited to see how Lumity will develop further!

[@snarls3760]

True

[@Doublemonk0506]

I need to add this. Amity does freak out in the earlier episodes, which makes sense as she has no knowledge of a healthy relationship. The only healthy relationship she has is with Edric and Emira, and they tease her a lot. Teasing siblings, selfish parents, and fake friends make it so Amity basically has no one to talk to about loving someone

[@EZenough4]

I think they sort of rushed Luz’s side of the relationship. She blushed once and the en off screen, developed a crush. I was disappointed but I still love them

[@Doublemonk0506]

@@EZenough4, to be fair, two factors made it so some plot lines in The Owl House would be rushed. The forced school subplot (it was forced onto the show by execs) and the early cancellation of TOH

[@justanothernerd6714]

@EZenough I don’t think it was rushed at all. While Luz may not have shown as many obvious signs as Amity did, we still see that she grows closer to her over the course of season 1. From their second episode together, Luz expressed a desire to be friends with Amity, and every subsequent episode shows a growing affection. Smiling, high fives, laughing, hugging, and the Grom dance. True, Luz never blushed until the Blight Industries episode, but there is more than one way to express attraction.

[@koalasandwich567]

How to make two characters end up together 1. Have like a few moments of interaction with some chemistry 2. Have some off-hand remark about them being together 3. Let Tumblr do the rest

[@Blwbelle]

Tumblr or Twitter

[@Peztllence]

@@Blwbelle both work

[@Blwbelle]

@@Peztllence lmao

[@kanyechan8376]

So What you’re telling me is that they did relationships in a healthy way in the Shrek franchise of all things?

[@XellosNi]

It almost makes way too much sense that a franchise that subverts Disney Fairy Tale Tropes would accomplish this. Funny enough, I think Aladdin comes pretty close in that part of the story involves turning a relationship that starts to get muddled by lies into a more open, honest and healthy one as there was some chemistry between them when they both felt on equal ground to each other.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

... Yeah, pretty much.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Big Brother Xellos Agreed

[@alilordoftheskies5079]

@@XellosNi Not based on lies but I think Tiana and Naveen as well as Rapunzel and Eugene did it right too. Well, I guess Rapunzel and Eugene was kinda based on lies.

[@CJCroen1393]

And also that fanfiction does "portraying the characters post-getting together" better than most Hollywood writers too.

[@Wells13555]

Red: I'm dropping hints that I'm aromantic Red: I'm aromantic

[@somedude8346]

Being blunt about how you want to handle a relationship needs to be encouraged otherwise you will fall into a dynamic that feels awkward and in some cases annoying

[@Wells13555]

I couldnt agree more, I'm just memein

[@alguienanormal3040]

She is asexual, dont know about romance, though.

[@lukejordan7510]

@@alguienanormal3040 panromantic

[@samuel_boivin]

What does Blue think of that? 🤔

[@matteoford3952]

What's funniest about this is from what I can tell, Red understands the trope far better then she gives herself credit for. Apply the context of suspension of disbelief to this trope, and you get the true issue of most romance both inside stories and irl. Her notes on what makes romantic subplots not work is actually good romance advice.

[@TheRealEvilkitten3]

genuinely i think people who are aro and/or ace probably have an easier time understanding what works for romance story-wise bc we frequently don't really care about the romance itself. like sure there are plenty of us who love that stuff but i think that since so many of us simply don't give a shit it's easier to take a step back and go "ok but STORY".

[@Vinemaple]

@@TheRealEvilkitten3 Exactly. I'm not aro or ace, but I spent my entire teenage life not being in romances, except for being scammed a few times by unscrupulous classmates. And all through it, and even today, people ask me for relationship advice, despite the fact that I have too many issues to be in a relationship of my own. People always expect me to have a clear, unbiased view of their relationship, and oddly, it seems that I _do._ I'm not exactly sure why.

[@TheRealEvilkitten3]

@@Vinemaple i've been asked for advice about romantic relationships way too much for an aro person lol i feel your pain

[@CoryTheNorm]

​@@TheRealEvilkitten3 I can only get invested in a fictional relationship if I'm already emotionally invested in both characters individually. I'm starting to suspect I'm aro lol.

[@TheRealEvilkitten3]

@@CoryTheNormif you are, then welcome to the club!

[@ashley-rosebellendaine899]

I think the prepackaged romantic subplot and the traditional “boy meets girl, shared eye contact, soft music” thing goes out the window when you have two bi or gay characters. People will insist that those characters are just friends.

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

I wonder if it was something from real life that naturally bleed into media ir if it was the opposite (Personally experience) there were many times I had crushes on boys but the only times I've got any romantic related reactions by my family members was when I interacted with girls, and I mean *interacted* , sometimes mentioning a girl was enough to raise eyebrows and cheeky smiles but whenever I expressed sincere desire to be with a boy I was either given uninterested responses and sometimes was actively brushed off Granted I had only mentioned my sexuality to a few family members and only my mom even considered the possibility that I might date someone of the same sex and I can count on my hand how many times that happened, meanwhile I would need pages to truly point out every time my peers and relatives speculated about my love life Needless to say that effected my perception of love and romance

[@ashley-rosebellendaine899]

@@airplanes_aren.t_real oof I get that. I definitely think the real-life/media thing is a mutual-reinforcement situation since art mirrors life and vice versa.

[@cheekybreeky3775]

weirdly enough I've seen the opposite happen in certain fandoms, where two strictly just friends or explicitly straight characters are insisted by some people to be gay, which is in a way a different kind of toxic to those that deny gay/bi attractions. Not better or worse, just different. Certainly, gay and bi people have it rough as homophobia's still pretty widespread so representation is really great, but some people jump the gun a little too much and label things that aren't gay or bi as gay, and attack people who disagree with them. Again, small small minority, but a very annoying one that ruins the reputation of the gay community.

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

@@cheekybreeky3775 depends on the fandom, some might have more LGBTQ+ ships than straight ones

[@cheekybreeky3775]

@@airplanes_aren.t_real yeh that's true. It's a matter of what community is formed or stuff, etc. Owl house was pretty wholesome in that sense. Sometimes annoying when the ship is what's all that's talked about and not much the story, but it is nice to see lgbtq representation done tastefully and everyone's just really happy/excited over it so it's understandable. the my hero academia fandom on the other hand...

[@rconr1899]

okay but the overly serious woman and goofy male example is like 99% of Hallmarks storylines.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

What about overly serious guy and goofy girl? How often do you see that one?

[@lenarotblum8502]

Goofy girl is maniac pixie dream girl usually

[@cybersketcher1130]

@@RickyUzumaki993 I'm writing that in one of my stories.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

CyberSketcher 11 Interesting

[@TheHornedKing_27]

That’s because it’s funny also I’ve noticed that there’s never goofy girl and serious guy most likely because most people will just think there an ass even though it’s the same thing just the genders are swapped

[@themandownstairs4765]

"I don't like coffee" "[deadpan, distracted] I'm never talking to you again" Red writes more convincing relationship banter than professional writers

[@loturzelrestaurant]

Ugh... I'm so done with Harem-Building and the Concept of Harems; Real-Life or Fiction or whatever.

[@machinedramon3532]

@@loturzelrestaurant You're not wrong, but how is that relevant?

[@royalhydra9790]

@@machinedramon3532 I think it’s a bot, it’s commented that in other threads

[@notactuallyacat.]

I recently had a conversation with my partner about how to cut a sandwich, and after telling them I didn’t cut it at all, they promptly called me a heathen. We’ve been together for nearly two years and I wouldn’t trade them for anyone else

[@loturzelrestaurant]

@@notactuallyacat. Yeah, sounds nice. But do you play enough Minecraft, so your Relationship is Healthy? Wash your hands? Wear a Mask (during Covid)? And other stuff that is just generally good for Human-People-Thingys?

[@skyhideaway]

can we talk about how the owl house managed to let luz and amity get together in the middle of the series and stay as a healthy couple (so far, at least)? there were a lot of situations that could have been turned into cheap drama but instead, we see both of them being honest and supportive with each other, and acting as naturally as they would with anyone else. it's really refreshing,

[@aspendespain4606]

It is so FRUSTRATING to me when they don't show them IN the relationship. Like, the romance is fine and what not, but I much prefer seeing people in a nice healthy relationship and it's so sad to me that hardly any of them actually have that.

[@elisa4620]

I know, right? The start of a romantic relationship is supposed to be the beginning of something (hopefully good). Not the end of it all.

[@OreoRanger2210]

Literally this, let me see the characters being happy for more than an epilogue.

[@Vinemaple]

The people who actually know how to write that stuff can't get jobs as screenwriters, or they won't get jobs as screenwriters because they're able to recognize and avoid toxic interpersonal dynamics, like being a screenwriter in Hollywood

[@chanshengsupremacy8889]

You have a great point! I completely agree (even though, strangely, when I read fanfic I like the opposite lol)

[@Vinemaple]

Although sometimes when they do, you wish they hadn't, like in the 1st Space Battleship Yamato movie, where Nova, now married to Wildstar (apologies for the Western names), becomes a passive, whispering, submissive wife, and Wildstar insists on her staying home as if she couldn't darn well take care of herself. That's a different trope, though.

[@Warden_Vtel]

"Blander than unflavoured oatmeal" I don't claim to know you very well, but I'll be damned if that isn't the most _Red_ thing you've ever said.

[@Boggsy.]

Even steel cut can't carry that bowl.

[@donatodiniccolodibettobardi842]

S&N Forde Much blander, than cardboard, yes.

[@judeskater93]

Vtel 'Zolam my favorite line from red is, "because Zeus has never met a woman he didn't want to make sweet sweet Eros too." I laughed too hard from that line.

[@a-c6586]

she was right.

[@amilisom]

I eat bland, unflavored oatmeal every morning. It's cheap and healthy. Fight me. :)

[@abbydabbs5519]

Fave running gag: Red lampshading her audience with battle gifs

[@weldonwin]

Specifically Pacific Rim gifs

[@Dinoman972]

@@weldonwin And occasionally Godzilla.

[@acethurman71]

@@Dinoman972 and king Kong

[@stefschouwenaars9562]

Comic kaiju!

[@jennifercorbett8640]

It's actually sad when you realize she's using this to deflect/misrepresent criticism

[@candarus_collective]

as an aromantic who's sick of 100% of media being tainted by romance, and 99% of that romance being poorly written: THANK. GOODNESS. FOR THIS VIDEO.

[@pappanalab]

The assumption of love also means sometimes the romance is mindlessly written while another character and the MC develop a strong friendship. As an asexual/Demiromantic the line between friendship and romantic love is really blurry for me so seeing them as best friends who also love each other romantically is really easy because it’s also me a lot of the time.

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

Ngl I've had this issue my entire life, distinguishing platonic love from romantic love is not my strong suit but I think I've been getting better at it

[@RichardX22]

It's not an assumption of love, it's an assumption of banging. "Romantic" subplots are thinly veiled sexual subplots. For the majority of dudes, we just want the protagonist to get to bang the hottest chick in the movie.

[@nessa-parmentier]

@@airplanes_aren.t_real funnily enough, a few days ago a writing group I'm in tried to define the difference between platonic love and romantic love. None of us was able to get a distinction more meaningful than "it is what the people involved say it is".

[@justsomerandomhomie1794]

Holy shit another demiromantic.

[@ibrahimihsan2090]

Define romance by your perspective? Want me to guess? A deep emotional attachment.

[@jjkthebest]

"If one of them can't be in character while in a relationship, they probably shouldn't be in that relationship" I feel like this is pretty good advice IRL as well.

[@Kittsuera]

like, she cracked the code for what irl standards should be to say "i do" if you cant accept that, 9/10 times prob shouldnt be saying it. the other times is when there are things that should change for the betterment of both parties. like no setting villagers on fire for not providing sacrifices. just because you are a dragon doesnt mean you have to horde all the gold in the land too.

[@laciereinheart9490]

Agreement all around. I feel like if you have to put on a mask around someone, you're doing it wrong. I've never dated, but my plan if I ever do/when I do, is to act like my nerdy, geeky, silly self. If they want to get deep with the conversation, my plan is to let them know that I am a medicated bipolar disorder sufferer. Not because I'm trying to scare them away...but because I'd rather they know up front, than decide they like me, and then not know what they're getting into. If they want to keep trying with me, then my hope is that they learn more about it. In return, if they are willing to learn about my issues, I'll do my best to learn about theirs, and if it works out, then great! If not, I'll only blame them if they tried to use or manipulate me. But if they just leave cause it's healthier for them, I'd rather applaud them. I'm difficult to deal with, and mature enough to know that. I have upset people before, and while it was friends and church people, I've still learned that my random bouts of hyperactivity, depression, and mania can be...hard. I'm not an easy person to deal with. But if somebody is willing to try, then I'll be damned if I don't try for him. God bless y'all!

[@liamnehren1054]

hmm a bit more complicated then saying it, in the first year brain chemistry changes meant to ensure future generations screw up objectivity towards your romantic partner, this even messes with how you act and you are literally not 100% in control of this and you will act not entirely like yourself... and that's without talking about the Jungian masks we wear at home, work etc and how our real self is something that takes time to come to the surface because of how life beats us up and we hide if we have any depth at all as people. Later in life when hormone levels drop and so sexual desire, the changes for a new relationship also mellow out making it easier but still people have trouble riding the hormonal rollercoaster of lust.

[@willieoelkers5568]

This is the thing I found off-putting in all those kids’ shows where you’ve got the one hapless character who’s always trying to come up with a whacky stunt or obsessing over some minor detail of an interaction or otherwise seems to be devoting an unhealthy amount of time and self worth to either the jerk popular kid who treats them like dirt or someone who they should be able to be upfront with but they apparently have some kind of mental block about it. In either case, I never understand what the appeal of being in that situation is, or why they keep putting themselves through it.

[@nessa-parmentier]

I was searching for that comment, as it's pretty much what I was thinking when she said it. And it's also why sometimes I'm kinda sad when people I've known for a long time get in a relationship and suddenly their behaviour changes a lot. I'm like... hey, significant other person, what did you do to them

[@HimanXK]

Sokka and Suki getting together was a little weird, but once they were officially together it was great, and it was great that they just stayed together and stayed healthy and played off of each other well

[@supurflufybuny]

***SPOILER’S FOR ATLA COMICS*** But it’s so fckn sad that Suki dies in the comics.

[@adeleaslan8182]

@@supurflufybuny .... *WHAT?!?!*

[@cardboardcrafter2482]

Didn't his first GF turn into the moon?

[@adeleaslan8182]

@@cardboardcrafter2482 that’s rough buddy

[@cardboardcrafter2482]

@@adeleaslan8182 Memes are fun.

[@brandondavidson4085]

"disagreement and liking each other aren't mutually exclusive", my wife literally roasted my shorts for 5 minutes today but we still had date night and enjoyed each other's company. Respectful communication is the most realistic, sympathetic part of a fictional relationship

[@blackwing1362]

Mmmm, steamed hams.

[@baronvonbeandip]

Meanwhile, on instagram: "He didn't worship you for every second of the day? You deserve better."

[@wesleythomas7125]

"Imagine a world where every story had to incorporate a line dancing competition by law. We'd think they were all sodding bugnuts!" -Yahtzee Croshaw or romance subplots.

[@aunix16]

Romantic subplots: *exist* Red: *aromantic confusion*

[@Orange_Swirl]

Asexual and aromantic aren't the same things. Although, I'm pretty sure Red happens to be both. May God have mercy on the soul that falls in love with Red.

[@aunix16]

@@Orange_Swirl Sorry for the mistake! It has been corrected :)

[@1randomperson15]

@@Orange_Swirl She's ace and thinks she may be panromantic, she's not sure, from what I know, at least.

[@YaGirlJuniper]

@@1randomperson15 You can be panromantic while being gray aro, but speaking as a Gray Ace Lesbian myself, "Panromantic" is sometimes a label we pick up when we think we can feel romantic feelings for anyone regardless of gender but then it turns out no, that wasn't romance, we're just aroace and we feel platonic love for our close friends. That's why it's confusing! Is this romance or isn't it!? Even I sometimes can't tell the difference and I know I can feel romance.

[@AegixDrakan]

@@YaGirlJuniper Yeah, romance is definitely confusing. Until you've been hit by it, you don't really know what it is. And when you HAVE experienced it, it's also hard to determine in the future if what you're feeling is just "Stronger than usual platonic friend love" or just an obssession, or ACTUAL romance. It's a whole hot mess. And I say this as a "hopeless romantic type Ace", who doesn't have Lust mixed in, making things even MORE confusing. I have no idea how the hell non-Ace people cope with that. ...Hey, I think that explains all the mournful and confused love songs out there!

[@yurihime000]

I think the Tangeled series did extremely well portraying a happy healthy relationship by basically just writing Rapunzel and Flynn/Eugene as best friends who also thought the other is just super pretty and kissable

[@anzaia2164]

which kinda just is what a relationship is, from my understanding

[@Leafeon-gd5en]

I feel all the best relationships are just that lmao

[@kristanicole8123]

@SamTheSoviet42 that's actually how most relationships are! many healthy relationships are approx 75/25 personality to looks at least in each other's eyes. you might also look into the sexuality demisexual, which from my understanding is only having sexual/romantic with the pretenses of a deep love and understanding connection.

[@derekskelton4187]

@SamTheSoviet42 Culture and fiction loves the chase and the romance. Sexy people being sexy. Actually spending time together requires liking people, but people tend to rush into things, and end up stuck.

[@flightlesslord2688]

@SamTheSoviet42 called not being shallow

[@oricalu448]

Alternative title: Red being the most relatable ace for 15 minutes straight

[@nathanjereb9944]

Diamond or Heart

[@oricalu448]

@@nathanjereb9944 idk, I know these things have meanings (like i think hearts means demi?) but I always forget. I usually just go with spades cos it looks cool

[@thomasfplm]

I'm not ace and I can relate with that.

[@Rain-nm1ee]

@@thomasfplm idk why people made this about sexuality when the video was more about badly written romance…

[@sunflowermink3110]

I'm just going to let this out but why do whenever someone says something not straight they get viewed as part of the LBTG+ community by other people it's not your fault

[@meowofender6463]

"We live in a society where relationships are considered to be the norm. both in fiction and in real life." *checks another box for the reasons I am not normal checklist*

[@nathanjereb9944]

"We live in a society..." *joker noises intensifies*

[@Vinemaple]

The thing is, they're actually not. It's just another way our society is utterly f***ed up.

[@Emmyfish]

The whole "what to do after the big kiss wtf is a relationship" is so deeply engrained into long-running shows that when Jake and Amy got together in Brooklyn Nine-Nine really early on/were super open communicating past/present emotions I was legitimately shook and worried about whether the show was going continually break them up and get them back together. B99 is amazing.

[@j2dragon109]

Emily The show did a remarkably good job of dragging out the pre-relationship stuff without making it unhealthy. Like, first Jake’s in denial, then he tells her but Amy’s dating someone else and he has to go undercover, then after Tedy and Amy break up, Jake’s dating someone else, then they thought that they had both moved on, then Jake finds out he still likes her, then Amy tells him about her no dating cops rule, then they finally get together!

[@bcmarcin9447]

I love that show so much

[@theomegajuice8660]

Parks and Rec was good with this too. Both April & Andy and Leslie & Ben relationships were more fun to watch after they officially got together.

[@j2dragon109]

hayhay055 Simply focus on other conflicts. The relationship does not have to have a conflict. It can be used as a break from the other conflicts.

[@justineberlein5916]

Say what you will about HIMYM's ending. (I side with the Take, that its issue was essentially that they planned the ending in advance, but then the characters grew in completely different directions) It handled Lily and Marshall's relationship well.

[@panlis6243]

"I don't know how to write a relationship. I can't even handle one of those in real life" - JP from Terrible Writing Advice

[@supreme_king_obama1158]

Ah yes, a fellow man of culture. TWA is my second favorite writing tips internet show. My favorite being OSP of course.

[@Alaryk111]

@@supreme_king_obama1158 GLORY TO THE EMPIRE!

[@supreme_king_obama1158]

@@Alaryk111 ALL ACCORDING TO PLAN

[@R_lulu]

@@supreme_king_obama1158 , I don't know what you're talking about, and the PLAN seems really important, but you know what is more important? The LOVE TRIANGLE

[@supreme_king_obama1158]

@@R_lulu ah yes, the LOVE TRIANGLE, the best way to solve any and all problems in your writing. have a massive plot hole that can ruin your book? just add a love triangle and problem solved. need something to fill in the gap in between arcs and -can't be bothered to come up with an actually good idea- just add a love triangle and problem solved!

[@LadyOMyth]

I feel that a lot of romantic subplot problems are mostly in movies and sometimes when it's transferred from book to movie, they tend to screw things up. For an example, in the Percy Jackson movies, they aged up the characters and essentially created romantic tension between Percy and Annabeth from the beginning to get the audience interested in them, right out telling them "Hey, this is who you're rooting for." (The movies also screamed: "Hey, I know they're supposed to be 12 and 12 year olds might be watching this movie, but those two are totally banging off stage and Grover's sleeping with EVERYONE.") It wasn't even done well and was nothing like the books at all. Where, when Rick Riordan wrote it, they start out as two 12 year old kids who aren't focused on relationships but on their tasks and just staying alive. He spaced their development going from strangers to friends to lovers in the span of five books. He saved it for the end of the series, but he also brought them back in his second series which, honestly, worked out well since you later got to see what Percy and Annabeth are like as a couple. The movies, though, ruined that whole thing, one of the many reasons why they stopped after two movies. Harry Potter actually did a better job at the relationship between him and Ginny although they didn't show as much as they did in the books and changed the part where Harry breaks up with her at the end of book six to protect her. I love romantic subplots but movies just get it so wrong in so many ways.

[@emeraldtree13]

Another thing with romantic subplots is that often the main character’s love interest, as compared to the MC or other major characters, doesn’t get much development or growth or agency; the love interest is sometimes limited or defined by that role. And even if the love interest does get development, the audience is often conditioned to view that character through the MC’s point of view, rather than seeing the love interest for their own merits. It’s an unfortunate trend.

[@avelongreed3132]

This is why i like Amity Blight from The Owl House,She has her own arc,backstory,and development,And a whole load of it,She’s her own character,Not just Luz’s love interest

[@YugSihtTsuj]

Most romantic and loving relationship: Gomez and Morticia Addams. Absent their weirdness, they are what every romantic pairing should aspire to. I'm not even kidding.

[@nowhereman6019]

"I remember my first funeral."

[@bishop2286]

Hell yeah

[@evilinc333]

To quote a line from Addams Family the musical: "We are as besotted with each other as the night we first met"

[@jean-paulaudette9246]

They always manage to maintain the initial excitement (& terror) of their first meeting.

[@thesatelliteslickers907]

They we're made to be a reaction and inversion to what is seen as normal Hence they are very open, very goth, they are constantly showing how much they love and care for each other in contrast to how distant so many other married couples are They are open about their sex lives and speak candidly with their children and support them. Even if they don't understand it like in the case of the baby from Adams family values who doesn't share their same excentricities They are both an inversion of the standard family values of the time. As well as what people should aspire to be in their relationships

[@grieverjoe]

You know, I was actually really pleasantly surprised at the end of Pacific Rim, when it ended with just a hug. Having spent time in the military, when two people spend time together, train together, and go through a traumatic experience together doesn't automatically make them hot for each other. It does help to form a huge bond between the two, but I always saw Mako and Raleigh as battle buddies, as opposed to "a thing". And I really appreciated that the movie treated it as such and didn't push them together for the sake of having a romance subplot.

[@TupocalypseShakur]

I loved that ending cuz it caught me off guard.

[@DragonKnightJin]

I appreciated that they didn't shoehorn in a romantic subplot. *Maybe* something happened after the events of the movie, maybe they just stayed close friends. It doesn't matter, really. Not to me, anyway. In the immortal words of Bob Ross: Everybody needs a friend.

[@yonibrill5553]

And then they ruined it in Pacific rim 2

[@megaalex6720]

Good romance subplot: the couple is relatable, wholesome, adorable, caring, and understanding Bad romance subplot: looks, strong, and forced... and harem

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

I think that some harem can be done well but the problem is that they are usually used so the situations the writers put the characters in doesn't feel forced

[@avelongreed3132]

A relationship isn’t all about romance,Its about the trust and care they put,Both Irl and in fiction

[@coltonwilliams4153]

Actually, I’ve read a couple series where the day to day life in a harem story was done better than most monogamous romances. One is a literal pride of lions (the guy is a lion lycan, and while only two of the women are also lionesses, the rest sure as hell act like lionesses).

[@GrassPokeKing]

@@coltonwilliams4153 Oh yeah, I'm definitely gonna need the name of that one, for my "research"

[@leonardorolingstella8554]

What's harem?

[@darabounds6671]

I crave a romantic story with a good and healthy on going romance. I need that wholesome love story

[@yourlocalmethaddict]

Then go watch the owl house, lumity is so good

[@jillianh7565]

Here’s a story my friend and I are playing out in a dnd game: Basically our characters are both nobles from different countries/domains. We met in Barovia and at first my character, Zelda Alagondar, didn’t trust this guy, Alexander Von Roeyen (Zarovich line). Note: Strahd Von Zarovich is the final boss or BBEG of the campaign; he’s basically the equivalent to Count Dracula. Anyway Alexander is the youngest of Strahd’s brothers and is also a vampire. Known as the forgotten prince of Barovia, Alexander wants nothing more then to see his oldest brother defeated and his legacy restored. The subplot between Zelda and Alexander began when the two characters realized they made a pretty good team after working together to tame a bird and start a Barovian militia. They started becoming close friends, often confiding in each other or helping each other while adventuring. Eventually Zelda realized her life was in danger and asked Alexander to protect her almost 24/7, becoming an unofficial bodyguard for the princess. Interestingly he decided to do this without hesitation and this act of selflessness went noticed by Zelda. Additionally Alexander taught Zelda how to have fun. For a while in the story Zelda would only think of her duty to Neverwinter. As heir to the throne her goal was to make political alliances either through marriage or negotiations. Alexander taught her that violence is sometimes necessary and sometimes you need to think of yourself first and life can be fun. Likewise, Zelda taught Alexander that he isn’t living in the shadow of his older brother and can create his own legacy if only he embraced his identity as the prince of Barovia. She empowers him to be his best self. As of now Alexander has begun to court Zelda. He often stays by her side and whenever she is in danger he rushes to the rescue. Just the other day our group made up a werewolf attack as an assassination attempt on Zelda’s life. Alexander, using his vampire abilities, came to Zelda’s aid and stopped the attack. While Zelda was frightened after seeing Alexander the vampire, she was still grateful he saved her from the werewolf. In fact one of the most entertaining things about this relationship is that both Zelda and Alexander could kill each other very easily: Zelda with the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind and Alexander could turn or kill Zelda with his vampiric abilities. This creates an interesting dynamic with the prophecy our dm set up because I need to be mortal to kill Strahd. There is an 80% chance Alexander could kill or turn me, making the prophecy obsolete. This means we have to prolong this relationship because it will end in tragedy.

[@trazyntheinfinitearchivist7866]

Brooklyn 99 does love stories in a fantastic and mature way. Much recommended

[@ibrahimihsan2090]

Watch the Addams family(preferably the 1960s show). The main couple is quite passionate(though still G-rated) but very wholesome with tons of awesome moments.

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

Iv never seen 2 characters go on one date and decide. “Nah, friends” which is like 80% of my dating experience

[@wooyeah1738]

Honestly the only time I’ve seen this was with Rachel and Percy, and half of the fandom still hates Rachel for it.

[@cordeliajackson8615]

pandemonium present I know, I love Rachel as a character and how Uncle Rick handled it. Rachel is an interesting character and the fandom hates her because for maybe less than a book, she had a crush on Percy.

[@wooyeah1738]

Cordelia Jackson Yeah. People fail to recall that she can’t date, and Percy wasn’t dating at the time.

[@toastymarshmallow5372]

you should watch "Spies are Forever". It's a musical that's free here on youtube and the female and male lead have a song together and they kiss but are like "ehh nah this just doesn't work let's just be friends" it has great music too also your pfp and username are amazing

[@cordeliajackson8615]

ToastyMarshmallow Dude I love spies are forever! It just didn’t come to mind.

[@tuneaj2763]

Very good, healthy relationship example: Rapunzel and Eugene. They're my favorite Disney couple. They have good chemistry in the movie, and they're so great in the show.

[@UmBelenense]

Show? What show?

[@holly3330]

Um Belenense The tangled tv series, it’s honestly really good.

[@nyangatagaming903]

Exactly! The relationship is healthy, and MAKES SENSE!

[@sophhuh2113]

Tiana and Naveen, also! :D

[@slithra227]

And they had actual fights too! And they worked through them! Writers almost never show realistic emotional fights especially in stuff marketed at kids so it was really refreshing to see.

[@happytortoisee]

0:01 red being an oblivious ace icon for 16 minutes

[@blueninjakick5387]

I used to try to avoid romance subplots, thinking they just weren't my thing. But one story I read had a romantic subplot that I absolutely loved every second of, simply because it made so much sense. It was then I realize It wasn't that I didn't like romance, it's that most of the romance subplots I had seen were just forced and bad overall.

[@reisatsuki5891]

Same, I thought I hated romance subplots or any romance story at all. Apparently it's just that these generic romance are just well, poorly written.

[@questionmarkquestionmarkques]

what was the story called

[@forestofstorms]

Now, let's say this together. GOOD ROMANCE STARTS WITH GOOD FRIENDSHIP. and bad romance starts with oooooooooooooo oOoOO caught in a bad romance!

[@randiscott2647]

Oh my God I love this comment

[@user-rx2zp1um2n]

You’re right though

[@rahmanmoncatar9675]

(BuT ItS MoRe CoMplEx tHeN tHat)yeah yeah yeah but its probably the best way to right a romance

[@forestofstorms]

@@rahmanmoncatar9675 yeah I kinda hate the "oh they're attractive so I'm head over heels for them" it just... I hate romance wirh no context. If it takes them kissing to make me ship them, it's not worth shipping

[@rahmanmoncatar9675]

@@forestofstorms exactly

[@kfizzledizzle8467]

Movie Executive: "Wow, so they fall in love. why? Do they have some sort of romantic chemistry through out the movie?" Guy pitching the movie idea: "Because he's the male lead and she's the female lead." Executive: "Wow, that is super romantic. Romance subplots are tight!"

[@janeeggleston9542]

Kip Higginson ...or, because the are both attractive. I love pitch meetings!

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

Writing romantic subplots is super easy, barely an inconvenience

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

@Riley Harper p.s. look up 'pitch meetings' on KZbin if you haven't seen them 😅

[@l.tc.5032]

You win the internet.

[@bored_person]

I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. Media executives are known for their detrimental interference. I wouldn't be surprised if most bad romances were the fault of executive meddling.

[@Telawin]

one of my favorite examples of a romantic relationship in fiction done well is Kim possible. the writers actually decided that they'd get over the "new relationship" phase pretty quickly and so we actually get to see that drama that comes from trying to sustain a relationship. and we even get to see our romantic characters trying to better themselves for the sake of the relationship. like when Ron joins the football team because he thinks Kim would like him better if he was a jock you'd think would be a one off episode but no. he stays in it until the end of the series because he finds he's surprisingly good at it... due to his experience running away from things. perfect having a character stay in character even after the relationship starts

[@icicleditor]

Now I'm imagining a power couple of two unrelated badasses just kicking ass together and they do a super cool fistbump-handshake for like 5 seconds afterwards

[@Just_Some_Guy_with_a_Mustache]

Romance in fiction died for me after I stumbled across a fanfic between Cabbage Man and Katara.

[@JP-rf8rr]

Just Some Guy with a Mustache You poor soul

[@basilofgoodwishes4138]

Just Some Guy with a Mustache ew, that's....still better than Zutara.

[@awsomesaucekirby]

Just Some Guy with a Mustache the internet must be cleased with fire

[@9Godslayer]

Did it end with Katara hitting him in the cabbages?

[@Enchie]

awsomesaucekirby Their isn't enough fire in the universe to cleanse all that.

[@bennyd.1862]

A boy and a girl are childhood friends. Boy leaves town for whatever reason and girl is sad, but moves on. They meet each other after *no* contact for 15 years. But that doesn't matter because after the reunion they are suddenly in love.(I hate that shit)

[@useodyseeorbitchute9450]

Maybe that's better that the time apart was so long. Otherwise they may have done something irresponsible before reaching age of consent.

[@merrittanimation7721]

And then he makes a grand romantic gesture like blowing a hole in the moon or something to show his seriousness

[@TheManofThings777]

This is funny because in anime, two characters being childhood friends is like, an instant "yeah they aren't ending up together" nowadays.

[@icarusablaze1831]

@@TheManofThings777 Nowadays the protagonist doesn't get together with anyone

[@MrElionor]

Isn't that the plot of the Kissing Booth?

[@loremastre6682]

Very fitting that you used an instrumental version of Seal’s “Kiss from a Rose”

[@thelaughingman3825]

I swear to god, I only know that song from the panpipes cover they used in "Who Killed Captain Alex"

[@loremastre6682]

Lol anytime they talk about love, Kiss From a Rose will play. I didn’t know about the song until a couple years ago from another KZbinr. I unironically enjoy the song.

[@Ch4os4ever]

This is why I like stories that have the protagonist already being in a lasting relashionship so all the romance stuff is already past and the focus can be the story itself. Lord of the rings filled thousand of pages with one of the main heroes (Aragorn) having already a decades old relashionship and not needing any romantic subplot in it.

[@photogenicBlur]

how to write a good romance: write a good friendship. that's it. if you can't imagine them as friends, you can't imagine them as a couple this also goes to those seeking relationships irl btw. that girl/boy is not good for you if you don't enjoy their company as a friend!

[@fightingmedialounge519]

If only it were that simple my naive friend.

[@yaboimagnus4776]

Kye Dysarthria well, although it can be more complex than that, these are good starting points

[@skullthrone8882]

Unfortunately most movies don't have 2 year run times

[@grayson8929]

That's probably why most friendships are misinterpreted as relationships because they work so well together why in the hell wouldn't they hook up

[@pRahvi0]

Friendship is, I guess, one of the best ways to get a relationship last longer than the honeymoon. But I have a hunch that, in many cases, there is also something else included. "A spark" or something like that it is often called. (And in some cases, it's all that is included; and romances like that seldom stay healthy for long, as far as I understand) I don't know if it's possible to even understand a romantic relationship without experiencing it on your own; so, as a single, I might be completely wrong. But I guess it might be the occasional (positive) surprises, or just some peculiar incidents that refuel the romance. Something like: "I {had forgotten/didn't know} you could be nice this way (too)."

[@lleer00na.79]

Say it with me people. Friends first, THEN romance.

[@ZaxorVonSkyler]

Ok but here me out, online dating.

[@generalzeta7000]

Is this why you should look for a SF who in the Friend Zone with you?

[@Ichigo90]

Two words: Ron Stoppable

[@nicolasa.3192]

It's the most effective way man. That's why it's so believable

[@user-jn1wm3tb8v]

Not always. Most people nowadays date other people they never knew before dating.

[@silverwolf28]

"How aro/ace do you want this episode to be?" Red: yes

[@chikaknight5610]

Omg as a asexual who enjoys romantic stories but rarely gets/picks up on/enjoys lazy romantic subplots, this whole video is a *mood*. Bless you

[@nathanfitzgerald2596]

"¡How could you cheat on me with my twin brother Enrique!" "Henrique! It's not what you think!" Goddamn I love this series.

[@limazulu6192]

what series is this?

[@warmgoodrob5611]

@@limazulu6192 late reply, but "this series" is referring to this video, Trope Talk

[@gangrenousgandalf2102]

Enrique: "¡Brother! ¡How dare you insult the love of my life!"

[@enigmatic3194]

Time stamp please

[@zorroillumantiz3562]

This bothers a lot: if they are hispanic (it seems like a mockery of mexican soap operas) their names should be pronounced the same way since the "h" is silent in modern spanish... Though know that I think about it a pair of identical twins with the same name but spelled differently is hilarious. It doesn't bother me that much anymore.

[@elliaatlas5832]

Good Example of a healthy relationship: Hiccup and Astrid

[@fernandorivera4719]

Fuck yes, you need to be higher.

[@eilonwy0360]

Their romance in the first movie was pretty forced though. They only got better with sequels. But in first httyd they felt like a walking trope of 'hero gets the girl by the end' :{

[@sebastienvondoom8615]

Jake Peralta and Amy Santiago

[@quinnsinclair7028]

They’re also really great in the tv show.

[@Traumglanz]

@@quinnsinclair7028 I would say, they are only great in the TV Show.

[@GoblinLord]

honestly, Red not understanding relationships just feels like she'd be 100% a worshipper of artemis in greek times, or like, athena also, still proud of that one time when I was watching Fringe and I caught that the two leads were gonna date like....on episode one, they had no real chemistry yet, I just caught it, and this was before I learned that it was the norm for leads to date

[@Blwbelle]

Who wouldn't

[@Jinx101luv]

The comments: you should be best friends first before you can be lovers! Me: *cries in enemies to lovers*

[@tommydoez]

Look the only difference between enemies to lovers and friends to lovers is that one of is about a deep seated interest in knowing and being with the other person and the other is a friendship. (like damn enemies that know the traumas of one another and make the effort to not only meet with one another regularly but also to turn them to their side because of their "potential"? that's just love on a different setting)

[@CLDJ227]

Kim and Ron from Kim Possible is a good example of a couple that still act as themselves as they did when they where friends.

[@carlrogge94]

Because they actually got a season to show their relationship and didn't end on the kiss.

[@domocan6877]

Pythak reh we only got that season because fans demanded another one. Writers originally were just going to end it on the big damn kiss

[@andyandanadraws]

After seeing this I remembered Tamaki and Haruhi from ouran high school host club 🤣🤣

[@nuggetbomber5977]

This is why I love doom. No romance, no forced relationships, just ripping and tearing through hell. The only romantic subplot is between the player and the game because the player loves it.

[@friedegg3732]

finally something i can get behind

[@indigo7289]

otp!

[@Ismael-kc3ry]

Wdym, The Slayer is madly in love with the super shotgun

[@royalhydra9790]

*RIP AND TEAR,*

[@TheAstralWitch]

Romance is temporary, but Doom is Eternal.

[@charlesintune]

"a wardrobe malfunction, a staring contest and a cup of coffee do NOT a relationship make!"

[@chelseawhite7117]

“But if the only way for a character to be in a relationship is to stop being themselves entirely, then it probably shouldn’t happen, for everyone’s sake”. Whoa man is that ever real. Red is getting deep into real talk

[@RandomSkyeRoses]

I think Red understands relationships but she doesn't understand romance because they often come across as shallow

[@revamahajan4395]

2:15 I think this explains why same-sex romantic subplots are more compelling and actually make sense to me. Writers have to actually write a compelling subplot because it’s not usually automatically assumed by most audiences.

[@Redrally]

That's a fair point, while most hetero relationships in fiction are clearly FRIs (Forced Romantic Interests) and are very very boring.

[@t26e44]

It’s probably true that same sex relationships have to more well written considering it’s less assumed, but it’s really annoying when the story puts too much emphasis on the couple rather than treating it as normal

[@revamahajan4395]

Hugo Huang yeah it is really annoying when people think they deserve high praise for being so “woke” however, in this period of time, representation is definitely appreciated. I think its a fine line to walk.

[@SingingSealRiana]

Yeah, not unfailable, but still totaly a true trend

[@chadfalardeau3259]

There still be a forced romance just for the sake of being "woke"

[@woolyshep]

Romance: *is right in front of me and is blatantly obvious* Me: Hmmmm.... Don't see anything.

[@NoArtisticLimitation]

Oh this is so true XDX People keep flirting with me and because I’m completely oblivious and don’t tell them to stop, they think I’m digging it, then they get so offended the first time I mention my fiancé...

[@birdinafedora7391]

Me: Hold on, I think I see a smudge of- Romance: *literally glows* Me: Nope. Nothing.

[@uncreativealien1819]

Sammmmmmmmme it all ways happens to me

[@articcenturion8387]

Like harem anime.

[@mickodooku6058]

Wait, so do you constantly say that you don't see anything until you see something? That must take up a lot of brain power.

[@josiemcmillan5012]

I know I’m a little late to the conversation, but I thought that the biggest appeal of Korra and Mako’s relationship was precisely how shallow it was. She’s been isolated with nothing else to her life but training to be the avatar for over a decade. Now, as a teenager, she goes into this fantastic new world, meets a celebrity-an attractive one at that-and falls for teenage infatuation. It could *never* have lasted for long, especially since half of her attraction to him seemed to stem from the cultural standard of heteronormativity. He’s a guy, he’s attractive, and he’s someone that she admires for his celebrity status and “cool factor.” With no experience or occasion to question any of those standards, of course the assumption will be that she’s “in love” and that they’re “meant to be together.” By contrast, Mako is a teenage guy, and we all know what that means-raging hormones. He’s naturally going to be inclined to react to someone he finds attractive, especially when she continually throws herself at him. She doesn’t appear desperate (well… not TOO desperate), and she’s a strong woman to boot. There’s just sort of a cultural expectation that they SHOULD be romantically involved. He’s hot, she’s hot, they’re both celebrities, they’re both interested to some degree… how could it possibly fail. Fast forward to the next season, and we can see exactly how it could fail-there was no real foundation for it in the first place. It’s easy to forget that these are all kids, and so it can be a little jarring when they act like kids. It felt very in-character for them to at least try to get together, but I’m so glad that they followed this by showing how the relationship fell apart because there was no meaningful foundation for it.

[@secretgaygent6617]

What I’ve learned is, JK needed to watch this and Uncle Rick is still the best

[@sastryvnk4402]

What are you talking about?

[@SuperUmizoomi]

@@sastryvnk4402 JK Rowling, the author of harry potter, and Rick Riordan, author of Percy Jackson

[@rarescevei8268]

​@@SuperUmizoomiJK did it well in the books though. There is a reason book fans hate the Half-Blood Prince movie.

[@Moonstar79]

I REALLY love that Avatar did that thing it did with Zuko and Katara where everybody in universe (and not) shipped them and they specifically denied that because fan service isn't what Avatar is about. She wasn't a perk for his character development. As a wise Red once said, man, this show is good.

[@zoro115-s6b]

I loved their simultaneous "I'm not his girlfriend! / She's not my girlfriend!" Scene. I never got the zutara shipping. I mean, there was the scene from the cave, and I get why that could be seen as shipping fodder if it was a different set of characters, but in that case, it was really just Katara being Katara. She's just a naturally caring person who wanted to help Zuko now that she realized how clearly damaged he was. Ultimately I really don't see any chemistry between them. I think she ends up liking and respecting him, but they really don't have much in common.

[@Moonstar79]

@@zoro115-s6b As opposed to Mai, who was into him for basically their whole lives and ahhhhh that scene in the prison block! Yeah, I'll always be team Maiko.

[@drascin]

@@Moonstar79 I mean, I admit, Mai and Zuko being a thing caught me kind of by surprise. But then, both of them are dumbasses with the emotional openness of a marble fountain, so it's not terribly surprising that they didn't really demonstrate it much outwardly until they both were certain the other reciprocated.

[@Moonstar79]

As much emotional openness as a marble fountain XD although, there was that campfire scene at Ember Island. I was caught off guard by it, too, but I learned to love it.

[@zoro115-s6b]

@@Moonstar79 I mean, for Zuko and Mai, going ten minutes with someone without telling them you hate them or literally blowing up in their face is the pinnacle of emotional openness.

[@popstarchamp]

But Terrible Writing Advice told me throwing in Love Triangles were always important.😲

[@caseywilde7931]

That is terrible advice xD A lot of cute ships I used to have made me stop shipping them since the characters started acting differently when the love triangle came and it just lost its touch. If a love triangle is done well, then it can be the most interesting thing ever but if it's done badly it becomes the worst thing ever

[@whiskeredwolf4861]

Casey Wilde /woosh

[@sydn2698]

Whiskered Wolf you edited your comment and you still messed the thread up

[@whiskeredwolf4861]

I|-SkyDon-|I whoops

[@jeythecount6546]

Visible Confusion

[@Cbawls]

The kiss from a rose piano track made me sub

[@voidmystic00]

The best example of romantic subplots I've seen in any media is from "The Wheel of Time" series by Robert Jordan. Not only do you get the dramatic build up, the "will they, won't they" setups, and the excellent romantic scenes, but you also get to see how each character deals with finding out they are in love, being in love, and how it affects them individually. Tbh I'm amazed at how many types of love this series touches on without detracting from the overall story.

[@6ixlxrd]

A big pet peeve of mine is when a girl, often snarky and independent, falls for the "Super-Hot Bad Boy" who treats her like crap until the novel's climax so we can forget everything he did and automatically care for him, like Four from Divergent. There's literally no build-up, considering their conversations often go like this; Her: "So, you came from there too? I'm sure it must've been nice. Was it?" Him: "Who gave you permission to talk to me? Your breath stinks." *OMG! I'm in Love!*

[@aleph7056]

I find this unironically funny how the guy just says "you need permission to speak to me". Just sounds absolutely hysterical. (Just in case, I'm not being sarcastic)

[@Carbon2861996]

That's like Han and Leia.

[@synflwr]

So I made this story where there was this boy, Travis, who met this girl called Cece. They didn't get along well at first, because this was set in a magic world and Cece found out Travis was a newcomer while she was from one of the best magic families. They eventually started hanging out more, to the point where they actually made friends and got pretty close. All the signs were there, they were gonna date. Travis ended up with another girl, named Neveah. Cece was so angry she dated one of Travis's enemies, but still stayed reasonably close to Travis.

[@512TheWolf512]

It's like divergent is a piece of shit story, huh? Who would've guessed

[@aceofthorns7944]

@@512TheWolf512 What's with all the Divergent hate? They were pretty good until the last book

[@patrickhf8298]

I just loved the "A kiss from a rose" song in the background 👏👏👏

[@GeneralNonsense]

Thank you.

[@unformedeight]

Thank you, I remembered too little for google to be of any help, thanks for the save.

[@username12120]

I can't not notice it now... or keep myself from singing along.

[@fromthe4621]

Merci beaucoup

[@adamlackseverything]

I liked it too, it reminds me of how she used this song during every single romantic moment in the Miscellaneous Myths, at least in the early ones

[@Levsa399]

The TV show “White Collar did a good job with this. One of the two main characters has been married for ten years, before the show even started. His wife is one of the central characters and the show often explores their relationship and how they handle the conflict in the show together.

[@Pixelflare03]

I like Jim and Pam bc their story doesn't end at the first kiss- we get to see them go through life's struggles as a couple, through marriage, kids, and job changes

[@Lex60]

I just realized that Shrek and Fionna is a very well written romantic relationship. They still are the same characters before becoming a couple, had they of course have troubles but they enjoy their time and share lots of thing in common.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Same here

[@carolinemcgovern4488]

Shrek, despite being memed to death, is still a very good movie. For me, Shrek the third was a movie where even though the rest was terrible, the romance between Shrek and Fiona actually worked. Like, despite the poor writing, they still have chemistry, and their troubles over babies were actually pretty realistic. Especially from Shrek's POV. If I were in his situation, I'd be terrified of becoming a parent too.

[@Kittsuera]

bonus, one of the few instances where becoming not human is the happy ending. too often its "curse is broken, now everyone is super model humans. but rare is it, curse is broken, you are now *insert creature of choice* full time.

[@merinofanfic4717]

SHREK is the best thing humanity has invented

[@TheRealEvilkitten3]

shrek is unironically a fantastic movie

[@ragingmonkeycritic]

“Subplot over” “Achievement unlocked” I love it

[@ConnanTheCivilized]

Particularly as most achievements have you do idiotic busywork that would make absolutely 0 sense canonically. Just like a forced romance subplot!

[@StarkSpider24]

This hits different when you play a game and after romancing a character they just go back to acting like some type of NPC 🥲

[@jonnestyronicha497]

I've seen so many times when two same-gender characters have shown intense, powerful, borderline-romantic chemistry... and then been turned into "very good friends" and paired up with opposite-gender characters. But that same chemistry between male and female characters almost never ends up as "very good friends." I know there are allegedly stories out there where two opposite-gender characters with intense chemistry do end up as friends in the end with no romantic plot but I honestly don't think I've watched/read them. And it's really annoying because when you say "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Arthur and Merlin ended up together?" someone else goes "Oh my god, they're just friends, stop forcing your sexuality into it, you're reading too much into it." But the same interactions if Castiel were female would have fans all over their chemistry and it would 100% end in a romantic plot. The person who accuses me of forcing my sexuality onto a character then looks at something like the relationship between Mako and Korra and decides they should be romantically involved based off of almost zero chemistry. And it's like... oh my god, people. Either stop immediately assuming all male-female character pairs in a story are romantically involved (thus forcing your heterosexual interpretation on characters) or just accept that there are places where two same-gender characters clearly have romantic chemistry and it's not "forcing our sexuality" to interpret it that way. You can't have both. (I bet you people in the comments are going to castigate me for suggesting that Arthur and Merlin were even the slightest bit gay -_-)

[@charlesintune]

I feel this. Shang Chi and Katy have a brother sister dynamic going on but if they make them hook up in a sequel I will personally use the ten rings to drop kick a writer. (People legitimately ship them romantically? Like have you ever met two friends??????!!)

[@jonnestyronicha497]

@@charlesintune I've heard that there was a deleted scene where Katy admits to Xialing that she has a crush on Shang-Chi and I really hope that scene was deleted bc the writers decided they were better as friends but given that Disney is the poster child of heteronormative media I have low hopes

[@literalcyborg3723]

You’re absolutely right, I agree with all of this. (Especially Merthur)

[@Doublemonk0506]

@@jonnestyronicha497, and the only series that boldly defies Disney's status quo is getting cancelled soon. I wonder why 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

[@jonnestyronicha497]

@@Doublemonk0506 which one??

[@averageevil801]

One of the things I actually like about my writing is that none of my romances are subplots or trope like. Romance I think is a great tool for advancing the plot as it can be used as a lens to why a character treats someone the way they do, or why they are taking the specific actions they chose. I love when it’s used that way because it’s actually important, and I wish it was mainly used that way instead of subplots!

[@brynnaandersen7739]

"Writers for some reason have a really hard time writing the characters in a steady relationship." Because they've never had one

[@robinschicha4712]

George Lucas Heart 💔was broken. 😢

[@redd-qh4xn]

I never been in a relationship before so it will be hard for me, but will do it off because I too lazy for written a romance subplot.

[@immortalkitsune360]

Given the tendency for a decent percentage of marriages to end in divorce, I'm not sure many other people have either

[@zoro115-s6b]

That's quite a bit of damage.

[@salvadortoscano2534]

That was my first thought xD

[@GhostPuddle]

I never thought "Kiss from a rose" in solo piano could be so compelling, even less as background music.

[@vaultedhollow]

It is very nice

[@rowan1555]

I was actually looking for this comment. I've heard this song before but couldn't quite put my finger on when/where, and somehow it didn't quite seem like it came from this. It really does fit, and I've found the song thanks to you. soo.... Thanks xD

[@curranfrank2854]

I don't even like the song but it fits really well here

[@jacobedward2401]

Yes thank you! I had heard Dan Avidan's cover so I was searching NSP songs haha, never would have found it!

[@MoonBlinked13]

One of my favorite examples of a relationship written well after the 'big kiss' is HTTYD. Hiccup and Astrid's relationship feels so natural!

[@MizzMDN11]

2:22 "Watch as these two awkwardly flirt in a classic will-they-won't-they relationship. Then, for the first time in movie history... *WON'T.*

[@kingusernamelxixthemagnificent]

I knew Shrek 2 was a masterpiece.

[@matthewmuir8884]

One of only a few sequels that's just as good, if not better than the first.

[@discmanthecdlord]

Of course it is

[@catherinemoul9160]

Fun fact! My ela class watched shrek 2 in a vote. We're middle schoolers. It was... interesting

[@RandomSkyeRoses]

@@matthewmuir8884 The film was very mature for a kids comedy film

[@Someone-or8tp]

@Schaffrillas Productions

[@kevingriffith6011]

The biggest victim of "writers can't write stable relationships" for me is Peter Parker and Mary Jane. They had to do a literal deal with the devil plotline to split the two up again so they could go back to the will-they-won't-they stage.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Ugh, _please_ don’t remind me of that. One More Day pissed me off so fucking much.

[@thecollector4332]

Kevin Griffith One more day is garbage and I hate to even think about it.

[@salad72057]

It's not even that really, it's simply a result of the really stupid status quo in comics that the then editor-in-chief forced onto Spidey which was to separate him and mj so that Spidey can be young and single again. They actually had a a good and stable relationship until one more day was forced to be written.

[@aros0018]

@@salad72057 Honestly, the fact that One More Day came at the end of J Michael Straczynski's Amazing Spider-Man just puts a lot of extra sting into how bad that change was. That man went out of his way to not only elevate Peter and MJ's relationship but even made Peter's relationship with Aunt May better and pushed Peter to be more mature. It had its ups and downs but JMS's run was very much about an adult Spider-Man, and it was forced to end by regressing him to an even more immature position than he was at the run's beginning.

[@yiklongtay6029]

It's a bad story. But I don't blame them for trying to stave off marriage. These comics have a very weird issue. They must give characters proper development but they cannot let them change so much that they lose teh status quo. Peter has to stay young and moody for decades of story telling. So writers have to give give the audience the illusion of character development without actually doing so. The accusation shouldn't be about "How dare they did it" it should be "How well can they do it"

[@The.Mountain.Flower]

For apparently going in blind, you hit it all head-on. I'm a hopeless romantic and frequent shipper, and you're saying things I've been wanting ppl to know/acknowledge for forever!

[@mirjanbouma]

I think her outside view actually helps with looking at it objectively

[@heatherweir8726]

Kim Possible did the romantic subplot exceptionally well.

[@yourlocalmethaddict]

So did the owl house

[@carolinemcgovern4488]

I think Kim Possible series 4 should be a masterclass on how to write a healthy post-kiss couple- It works so well.

[@llamasrock2284]

This makes me really appreciate Kim and Ron in Kim Possible.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Same here

[@supreme_king_obama1158]

Ah, another man of culture I see. *looks at comments* ah, two men of culture I see.

[@Luke_Danger]

And yet people keep insisting that Kim should be romantically attracted to the supervillainess who has tried to blend her into cookie batter rather than the actually rather wholesome relationship that was built over twelve years of slow burn growth and friendship before making a jump forward that very well may not have happened nor was written as inevitable in the show either.

[@NightoftheLivingcookies10]

I have rules for when I decide to ship characters 1) They have to KNOW each other (at the most be acquaintances) 2) They need to be friendly with each other (I won't ship characters who's relationship in general is cruel or abusive in a dangerous way. I know lots of tv/movie couples start out hating each other but sometimes the cruelty goes too far and there should NEVER be romance coming out of it) 3) The romance shouldn't distract from major points in the plot 4) Their relationship is beneficial to each other (like one supporting the other when they have no one else and the other getting a shoulder to cry on)

[@RandomSkyeRoses]

Actually, that's a really good rule. I hope you use that in your real life

[@MrTigracho]

Those rules are actually superb for writting too.

[@Flowtail]

My rules for shipping: 1) Is the fic well-written? 2) thats it

[@justinalicea1590]

I think there should be a singular exception to rule number two on this, if people wish to use them for themselves: Characters who are not friendly with each other but are actively trying to be better people. They recognize that they have issues and they are trying to work through them, hard as it may be.

[@Hexagonaldonut]

As someone who exists kind of in a fandom with a really popular and also *really* abusive-in-concept ship, I really feel like for the most part these rules should really be followed by EVERYONE. Because no, a romantic relationship between two people where one of their character motivations is *literally* trying to kill the other does NOT make a good relationship! (Props to anyone who knows exactly what ship I'm talking about.)

[@kairussell2156]

I HUGELY appreciate you pointing out how obsessed fiction is with setting up relationships with no intent of actually exploring them. I personally enjoy shipping, but only if there is genuine chemistry, and really wish there were more fantasy/sci-fi heroism and adventure stories that feature healthy, committed relationships. Thank you for the informative video!

[@klbzplb]

I feel you on this one. I never understood and/or absolutely disliked romantic subplots, and many times when enjoying a book, movie or something like that with my friends, they thought that "the ship is super cute and otp" and stuff where from my perspective it went from "woah that guy is creepy leave her alone she doesnt like you" to "oh theyre in love now" with no actual relationship development.

[@MagdaH97]

I accidentally wrote a pairing. This made it feel much more natural then all my other attempts at romance. It was glorious.

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

And thats how its supposed to work. Organically.

[@hyperx72]

What was it?

[@thealiplayer8736]

*Is it possible to learn this power?*

[@Munchkin.Of.Pern09]

MagdaH97 I get the feeling that might accidentally happen in a story I’m working on. Oh well. If my audience (however big that ends up) decides to ship those two, I won’t spoil their fun. I admit, I can sort of see it. Especially since there are no male leads for them to unbelievably fawn over.

[@pLanetstarBerry]

Right?! One writer to another, those moments are great! I had one story where I was going to write a deliberate love interest for a character after his arc resolved. On my way there I found he and his friend had a crap ton of chemistry during all the A plot drama and decided, hey, just write them getting together. All the friends I shared this story to ended up being super on board with it.

[@corrat4866]

Red: points out actual flaw in Attack of the Clones Me and my meme mind: “it’s treason then”

[@memerboi7128]

Nah mate execute order 66

[@christopherbennett5858]

@Tom Ffrench And out of both grief and desperation on Anakin's part. What is crazy though is how 8 and 9 yoyo arguably one of the most disturbing relationships and play it straight.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

Ugh... I'm so done with Harem-Building and the Concept of Harems; Real-Life or Fiction or whatever.

[@pjlusk7774]

@Tom Ffrench Part of me thinks "it's maybe a plot point that this relationship is obviously bad" in a different way. I'm on board with the theory that Anakin is so powerful with the Force that he's (probably accidentally and without really meaning to) using it to subtly manipulate Padme into being in the relationship at all.

[@MoonBlinked13]

I love how Pacific Rim did it. And it's even kinda spelled out with Drifting being said to create a special relationship. There's nothing else like the relationship between Jaeger pilots.

[@archivist_13]

As someone who finally caved and watched Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood because of this channel it made me happy to see Roy and Riza/Edward and Winry in this video, even if it was just in the background