The Problems With Imitating the Federer Straight Arm Forehand

[@TomAllsopp]

Just be clear, obviously the Federer forehand can be executed by certain individuals but the message from Slavy and I is firstly that you shouldn't get fixated on imitating specific parts of the swing, but rather see it as a rhythmic and flowing stroke. Secondly, people run into errors by imitating the straight arm forehand and locking out the arm. Thanks for watching!

[@Johnstage]

Excellent advice! I should have gotten this advice years ago. Tried sticking to an eastern grip which I’ve had since 1975 but finally decided to move to what was more comfortable for topspin; semi-western. Pretending I was Federer for years was fun. But not very productive! I don’t copy anyone’s forehand anymore but do what’s comfortable and what works for my own anatomy.

[@kingtutmano]

Where can I find those nike air zoom zeros in size 12???

[@brenhugh]

I loved this tennis chat outside the cafe. I felt like I was almost there. Cheers. And never lock your arm on the drink.

[@SlavElenkov]

LOL'ed at your comment about locking arm on the drink

[@rucas10]

I couldn't agree more. This is exactly what I was thinking about.

[@mytennisjourney4949]

Thanks, this is really great point. I’m trying to learn the Federer forehand, I usually shadow swing at home do exactly as you said, not smooth drop. And when I record my rally, I found I play more like the roller coaster way when I was focused on watching the ball, and I’m trying to fix that!! It’s lucky to see this in the right time, thanks again!

[@TomAllsopp]

Thank you!!!

[@astropiazzolla]

Also relevant to this video I think is your earlier one about copying certain players deliberately in order to get out of particular habits. I liked what you said then about how you looked at yourself copying different players and they looked the same - it really sums up the gap between how we imagine ourselves vs how we really are. In fact for most recreational players, just being able to hit like some of the best players at the local club would be more than enough of an aim, let alone copy someone like Federer (but of course there are no KZbin videos of slow motion available on them!). Another issues is that KZbin makes it seem like you can break down a complex stroke such as the forehand into small bits that you can fix: so many videos about getting more power in a few "simple" steps. In reality the human body and the brain doesn't work like a computer and it's difficult to break down parts of a stroke and fix them one by one. A classic example is how trying to change one part of the stroke makes another part compensate for the change, resulting in the same outcome - it's just what the brain does to impose the same constraint it had before. So it usually requires years of hard work to fundamentally change a stroke at the technical level.

[@SlavElenkov]

well said. mastery takes much more time and effort than a simple fix.

[@mayabergom]

Best analogies yet. Everyone wants to ride a roller coaster but nobody wants to ride a horse with handcuffs.

[@TomAllsopp]

Hahahaha exactly!

[@weichengli6612]

This is greatly helpful! I was imitating Roger’s for a while, which didn’t work for me at all. Then I found Medvedev’s style made me more comfortable, especially to the usage of the gravity! That imitating worked so well! However, after watching this, I learned that it’s not about imitating the gesture or swing. It’s more about to find a way to optimize the overall control of your body! Generating your own style that can comfortably and smoothly hit the ball! So, I think I will continue learn something new from the pros, more importantly watch your video, haha. But when I practice, will be focusing more on myself!

[@alhs77st]

Great video. I think this is 100% correct. And I say this as someone who used to watch countless hours of pros hitting forehands in super slow motion. Most of what people end up fixating on/imitating is idiosyncratic to the individual pro. Trying to replicate it destroys fluidity/momentum/weight transfer: all the things that truly matter. Focus on those things, and keep your eye on the ball through impact, and you'll be much better off.

[@TomAllsopp]

Agreed!

[@Mickey_McD]

What blows me away about Fed is how he just hugs the baseline, taking so many shot on the short hop and yet still hitting them solidly. His sense of timing is incredible. My guess is because he hugs the baseline so closely he needed to make his swing as compact as possible, so he's eliminated the larger "C" loop and just does the quick racquet drop that you've pointed out in your video.

[@SlavElenkov]

interesting point. it could be, as you say, a personal adaptation.

[@jimpoole6037]

As a 4.5 player I spent this year going to Roger F swing path; you have given me reason why it is Not working like I want!! Thanks !!

[@jerome_morrow]

Watched many of your videos now. You evidence excellent understanding of biomechanics and how it influences the dynamic movements in the kinetic chain of tennis strokes. Most importantly for a coach, you articulate the learning points with great clarity and in a manner very easy to understand and follow. PS: I’m willing to bet that you also have an excellent understanding of the golf swing and probably have spent a fair amount of time analysing the similarities between the forearm release through impact in both golf and tennis. The right forearm supination-pronation sequence is common to all throwing motions, even if the terminologies are different between sports. Eg: forearm supination on initiation of the downswing in golf is often discussed as “flattening the shaft plane”.

[@TomAllsopp]

Thanks mate. I’m loving golf right now. Got down to a 7 handicap and it’s amazing the similarities to tennis. Thanks for the kind words. Are you a coach? If so, where?

[@jerome_morrow]

@@TomAllsopp Amazing! Top level tennis player AND golfer. 👏👏👏👏👏 The 7 handicap is no surprise. Saw your swing in one of your previous vids. I’m not a coach. Just a former competitive amateur golfer (played off between scratch and 2 for some 20 years) with a keen interest in biomechanics of the golf swing. I can coach a bit when it comes to golf, but I’m not pretending to be anywhere near as articulate as you are! Played tennis a bit in my teens and was around 4.5. I’m now in my 5th decade and have recently started playing tennis regularly again. Currently at 4.0 but improving steadily. I’ve become similarly interested in biomechanics of tennis strokes, hence my coming across your channel and really enjoying your content. I’m fascinated by the different terminologies used to describe the motions between golf and tennis. They might sound radically different, but the fundamental principles are the same. Cheers!

[@TomAllsopp]

@@jerome_morrow thanks for the support mate. Scratch to 2 is amazing. It’s so mental how I can’t do what I do on the range on the course. No opponent. Just me. Crazy. Let me ask you: Are you trying to get the club passing the hand and body? Having the wrists kinda roll. If so… are you trying to do that while keeping the club straight at contact, almost pushing through contact for a few inches. Am I right? Or what is happening? Much appreciated

[@DonYang73]

Totally agree. Federer uses the wrist lag to whip the ball together with the straight arm pushing forward. You need superb timing for that. Most players wont be able to do it so smoothly, with so much power and great timing. Learn the true fundamentals and you will develop your own style when you reach a certain level of play.

[@TomAllsopp]

Great comment. Thanks

[@SlavElenkov]

Love this comment. Those are my thoughts as well.

[@emmanuelbuenviaje6564]

Process vs Result...that's a good summary and makes the most sense 👌

[@johnscpmg4862]

I agree. Federer doesn't swing with a locked straight arm. Imo, his fh is very similar to other bent arm fh except most times, his bent is just not as pronounced. His power is still from the pronation of the forearm and some ISR but his swing is more horizontal than vertical. One key thing also is that the racket head needs to come around the swing and release as it hits the ball. I think he does this by actively rotation the head back right before the forward swing so that it create a figure eight. This allows the racket to swing around the hand and release. If you don't facilitate this release with a figure 8, then you need to muscle the pronation to get that racket head around and release. Ow, the racket just trails behind the hand and lacks rhs if no release or release after swing is over. Just my 2 cents. Hope that makes sense.

[@Johnstage]

What do you mean by actively rotating the head back before the foreword swing?

[@johnscpmg4862]

What I mean is that Fed doesn't just place his racket down in the Pat the dog position and then swing forward. Most players create a figure 8 with their swing. The racket head goes back then forward. Fed does it also but the back loop is smaller. He supinates/externally rotates the racket as he gets his racket back and then pronates/internally rotates when swing forward. This figure 8 loop helps to bring the racket head around and release into the shot. Without this figure 8 loop, there's a break in the motion and you won't have the uninterrupted acceleration to generate good racket head speed. These are just my observations. One other point is that fed keeps his racket closed with the back loop (supination/external rotation) and that's important to keep balls from flying long.

[@gabrielalcocer8051]

Agree with all of this. Smooth perpetual motion is what I look for in students, sometimes takes a lot of time. Too many coaches just teach beginners to lay the racket back without a loop, bothers me. Lol

[@mayabergom]

Yeah, I love this emphasis on fluidity, acceleration, stability, etc. instead of imitating various pros' idiosyncratic technicalities. Very cool.

[@goldilocks450]

Harrington Emerson, not a tennis coach, put it best. "Of methods there may be a million and then some. Of principles there are but a few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble."

[@TomAllsopp]

That’s brilliant! I’ve never heard that before.

[@goldilocks450]

@@TomAllsopp can't remember how i stumbled across it Tom. he was basically a management consultant in the 19th century and applied that philosophy in business settings. As a tennis coach myself however it resonated with me as ive tried to convey the same idea to many students, particularly those who are obsessing over some minor technical detail thats largely irrelevant to the way they actually play tennis.

[@1114gabby]

Tom- I totally agree with this. you still see a lot of pros with the loop forehand. Fed had a loop and he changed it....I think a trade off for more explosive power. Worked for him ...but most of us are not Fed. love this video. On another topic - How do you like Chris Eubanks backhand? I think its a pretty awesome stroke.

[@TomAllsopp]

Thanks mate, I'll go check him out.

[@SlavElenkov]

👍 analogy king 👑

[@Tennissoccergolfski]

Thank you coach

[@alexandern4140]

thanks very much - great tip

[@1985markush]

loved both parts

[@TomAllsopp]

Thanks!

[@qk1s]

guys i'm thankful for the content you are putting out, however for me the most controversial thing about forehand kinetic chain is the involvement of body vs arm. Some content on youtube is describing kinetic chain from ground up and transfering body generated power into the racuqet at the pre-shot and putting it all down at the contact (which seems correct for me) (legs > hips > shoulders > arm > racquet > going through)) however some other coaches are advocating to throwing racquet first and following with the body. I feel i need biomechanical literature on this topic as advices are controversial. Shall the body generate a whip or hit initiate a weight transfer in the direction of the ball?

[@TomAllsopp]

I’m not sure how you’d throw the racket first without the body. I think what you may be missing is that the kinetic chain works in reverse after contact as it did leading to contact.

[@edwardgrunder5628]

The only thing I’ve ever “ copied” from Fed that lead to any real meaningful progress was his use of the off arm .. how he almost touches his left shoulder against his chin ..I guess this ensures you are getting the right amount of rotation..

[@TomAllsopp]

The right amount of rotation would depend on the type of shot you're faced with. Thanks for the comment.

[@Jfff-ugfgh]

Momentum and fluidity is key, unfortunately most club instructors are teaching in wrong way.

[@marktace1]

Given the low racquet drop the swing path would be too steep if he hit with a bent elbow. As it is he gets more spin than other players with Eastern forehand grips because of the low racquet drop so it works for him. Nadal has a similar issue with his low racquet drop even hitting with the elbow extended because he has a stronger grip. He has to hit the ball hard all the time to keep the spin from dropping it into the net. It works for him, but wouldn’t work for 99.9% of the rest of us.

[@crocr]

I hit with straight arm but it came naturally because I mostly use an eastern forehand grip, hence it is very difficult to hit with a bent arm. With an eastern grip, the arm naturally straightens out in order to get that natural follow through.

[@TomAllsopp]

I use an eastern grip. This doesn’t make the arm straighten. Mine doesn’t

[@crocr]

@@TomAllsopp are you hitting a classic forehand as opposed to a more modernized forehand? With an eastern grip, the arm has to naturally straighten out in order to get that windshield wiper follow through. If my arm is bent while hitting forehand with an eastern grip, the racket face is too open and there is no windshield wiper finish.

[@TomAllsopp]

@@crocr my arm doesn’t straighten whether I’m doing old school or modern. The strings don’t face the sky. I appreciate this is what you’re experiencing with your stroke but it’s not the same for most people

[@g.tennisgustav7661]

You do not mention ESR and ISR..that's what happen in his stroke.Review ,learnran and teach.Thanks.Kudos

[@TomAllsopp]

There’s lots of things I didn’t mention…

[@glennwilliams4441]

Great advice

[@kadivikram]

New channel idea -> Coach Slavey roasts internet tennis coaches Jokes aside, great content as always!

[@pr4nk5tr]

I wouldn't mind imitating the Sampras serve though haha.. could you do that yourself if you tried? 😁

[@TomAllsopp]

Actually, stay tuned. That might be my next video.

[@pr4nk5tr]

@@TomAllsopp I'd love that! Everyone seems to talk about how you need some freakish athleticism and flexibility to copy his motion and that one should only take away some core principles, but I'm not really buying it. Only guy I know with a good Pistol copy is the mighty Rampras

[@shriramoka]

Nice video. But pat the dog of fed has a lot of sense to it. First he creates armpit body separation w.o having to lock the wrist. And then He viciously rotates from the hips the moment he reaches pat the dog... this naturally causes ext shoulder rotation for him and also for Naadal. It's another story that rec players don't have the same arm relaxation and hence they can't use it. Pat the dog is the shortest way to prepare the racquet !!

[@cpgone]

thx

[@TheMax200g]

What’s the difference between Federer’s straight arm forehand and Nadal’s straight arm forehand?

[@genaroflores835]

The way they grip the racket

[@yakzivz1104]

Literally I can't copy any of the pros forehands; however, I do try to imitate parts of Nadal, Sock, and Swiatek's forehands. IMO Nadal has the best forehand on the ATP tour.

[@TomAllsopp]

Nadal and Sock have the complete opposite style of forehands. You must be doing a lot of experimenting!

[@yakzivz1104]

@@TomAllsopp Sock was the reason why I decided to play with western grip; however, I did not copy any other part of his forehand though. His swing path is just too extreme for me but I really like how much topspin he imparts on his balls, while also flattening it out. Some of Nadal's techniques, I was able to copy as well. I'm not strong or fast enough to copy everything that Nadal does on his forehand but I took a few notes.

[@ankbas4718]

Federer is the most talented Tennis player ever. So you can't just copy his techniques and playing style. But at the same time he is so technically sound too so coaches find him the best player for their students to model upon. Apart from that, both Federer and Nadal, the two greatest forehands in history, have straight forearm while hitting forehands.

[@transamination]

8:44 - starting the serve with racquet down the back. Thankyou! I hate this exercise. It makes no sense.

[@k.l.rf2032]

When I first learned my forehand, I watched many of Federer's forehand videos and I learned a lot from them. My forehand turned out just fine. Federer's forehand motion is one of the smoothest and the most effortless, not to mention how elegant it looked. It's absolutely ok to imitate Federer's forehand motion as long as you stay loose, which is actually vital to any other motion. Maybe you guys should be more open minded and stop thinking that learning from the pros' motion is idiotic.

[@TomAllsopp]

We never said learning from the pros motions is idiotic. We also never said it wasn’t possible fir some people to execute it well.

[@SlavElenkov]

What I think is idiotic is trying to copy small elements of a pro’s forehand. it’s a complex system. copying one element and plugging it into your forehand will result in Frankenstein effect.

[@k.l.rf2032]

@@SlavElenkov well... it somehow turned out great to me 😅. I copied the wrist lag and the straightened arm motion from Federer, they respectively helped me a lot on creating more power and saving effort. And as for the none-looping backswing, I've been playing that way since my first coach taught me how to play forehand. I don't know... am I really the only person that was benefited from copying small elements？I think it's totally fine when you find some kind of small moves in a pro's video and you go try it on court. Maybe it'll help, or maybe it just doesn't work out. Either way is fine.

[@SlavElenkov]

maybe i’m wrong. i’m just saying what i see from students and club players in general.

[@k.l.rf2032]

Great talking with you about tennis ☺️

[@DavidBartosik]

Hey Tom, be careful with this video. I love your channel but many people are dummies and your friend criticizes what most players are doing thinking they look like Roger. ...what I did when I started developing my tennis. It might have caused my TE that's lingered for a long while. (Perhaps a video on that and how to avoid getting or treating it TE). I know you are trying to grow your channel but it may alienate people. Great work. Great content. I'm working on footage to do an online consult. 👏👏

[@TomAllsopp]

Looking forward to it!

[@ruggierojerolli]

Medvedev´s aka Crooked Man demonstrates with his ugly movements (the ugliest when hitting hard ends up in sort of disjointed bones ) that being light years away from Federer´s sleek, compact (you pick the adjective) strokes does not prevent him from producing huge tennis in every aspect. Of course must be doing "some things" exceptionally well in all the technical stuff despite looking ugly otherwise....bla bla it´s obvious. I noticed that against Nole in the USO Final that Daniil hit brutally hard his fh and at the same time it landed consistenly safe one or more feet before the lines, yet one could see his ball traveling with pretty more arc than Nole´s which was completely strange and upside down for me. Supposedly Nole´s topspin forehand safety and speed is massive but that day (began with Zverev to be fair) his forehand oftentimes landed out . From my good hundreds of hours watching tennis since the day Lendl was painfully beaten by Chang in RG in 89' (watched tennis years before but not as a real fan) and from watching quite a few Medvedev matches I realize that in his fh, if it wasn´t for his abrupt, up steep follow through that looks like he wants to badly hang himself with his arm - that is precisely his solution to produce enough topspin on the ball - his shots would mostly land out because c´mon this guy doesn´t seem to hit the ball from down to high, he swings sort of from upwards, does not have time or barely has to go down to high. What do you make of Tom?

[@TomAllsopp]

Yep, he certainly didn’t imitate anyone.

[@ruggierojerolli]

@@TomAllsopp Well people say Dimitrov did though. May be indeed it was his own nemesis and limit ´cause he didn´t achieve to get neither that RF´s forehand nor his bh. That´s why a very good imitation is what it is. And if argument is that he beat Federer in USO 19' well we all saw that match and what happened with RF from 3rd set on.

[@TomAllsopp]

@@ruggierojerolli what or who did he imitate?

[@ruggierojerolli]

@@TomAllsopp For years tennis fans, tv commentators and coaches have said that Grigor Dimitrov imitated Roger Federer (basically in his fh, also his bh but less). For me he fell short at 70% or some less. Did you know that or is nonsense?

[@TomAllsopp]

@@ruggierojerolli he looks like he tried to imitate Federer to some degree

[@logicrule]

leylah fernandez forehand is straight and locked

[@TomAllsopp]

And it’s rubbish

[@logicrule]

@@TomAllsopp haha true

[@shabzone]

Stavey sounds like he really hates teaching. I'm glad I didn't pay $120 an hour to be called a fool.

[@SlavElenkov]

I wouldn't be calling you a fool, because if you were my student you'd know better on day one. you wouldn't be copying small elements from other people out of the context of your own stroke and playstyle. thanks for the comment anyway.

[@claude7473]

Very difficult staff....

[@watcher687]

I bet if we ask Federer to throw a stone sidearm he will do it with a bent elbow. Straight arm throwing is just not natural, don’t know how the hell he developed it.

[@progressivedemagogue8480]

Your arm is straight in the end part of the throwing motion actually, think about it.

[@Chris_Sheridan]

Ok - let's see proof of Federer's forehand - no professional player makes a 'triangle' shape - it's bio-mechanically unsound. There are reasons why the extended forehand should be practised, just like any other shot in tennis - everything requires practise - the serve is the most complex, so why not an extended (straight arm) forehand?

[@emjay2045]

Good vid. Until that chair scene … had to cut it off. Get therapy !

[@TomAllsopp]

Shame. You missed some great advice.

[@robrawlings4402]

@@TomAllsopp that was the best part....funny too

[@drbonesshow1]

Keep gerkin' the gherkin.

[@TomAllsopp]

I was going to use your forehand but decided to use mine instead. Next time!

[@drbonesshow1]

@@TomAllsopp It's your gherkin not mine.

[@yakzivz1104]

Nadal is better than Federer! I know that I'm going to get a lot of hate.