The Queer History of The Lord of the Rings

Was Tolkien a big gay? Were Sam and Frodo lovers? Was everyone in The Lord of the Rings transgender?! There is no way of knowing. Except to watch this video.
No cats were harmed in the making of this video. Miško just wants to be included in the fun, he loves to be centre of attention!
Video by Verity Ritchie. Script editor: Ada Černoša
Patreon: / verityritchie
Verity's Twitter: / verilybitchie
Verity's Instagram: / verityritchie
Ada's Twitter: / theliterarybi
Ada's website about bisexual books: theliterarybis...

[@verilybitchie]

Thanks for watching! For more juicy (soupy?) content, consider becoming a member on Patreon! www.patreon.com/verityritchie

[@asyouwish6633]

So when I originally clicked on the video I was expecting a bad faith interpretation used solely as a cudgel in the culture wars, so I clicked off...then thought about it for a few moments to then take a watch in earnest. And safe to say this is one of my favorite video essays that I have seen on the topic and I absolutely enjoyed the jump into the various parallels to fairy stories and the freedom of interpretation found within. Safe to say you earned a well deserved subscription and I hope you have a very merry rest of you r week enjoying some of the finest literature around.

[@bobbylee_]

@@asyouwish6633​​⁠Was that suppose to represent some kind of imaged validation? I think you should exam where those “bad faith interpretations” come from.

[@dayegilharno4988]

:) So... You're saying that the whole epic centers around travelling to a metaphorical "dark place" to throw off the shackle of hetero-normative conditioning represented by the "One Ring"...? I KNEW it!!!

[@asyouwish6633]

@@bobbylee_ Wow, hostility for what? I was stating that it was a well formed video essay that I thoroughly enjoyed when I thought that I wouldn't? And yeah looking at the amount of bs that has been spewing forth since Amazon made the Rings of Power series I can safely say ideologues have been trying to use Middle Earth as a cudgel in the culture war.... So could you chill it with the imagining some sort of slight to the creator that was not there?

[@antifacowboys-io4bs]

Thank you for the great research and presentation! I also want to add that Gimli might be read as a dwarven woman or a trans man... With some help from Terry Pratchett and Dwarf Fortress, at least.

[@Tbrekke]

"But what about second divorce?" "I don't think he knows about second divorce, Pippin."

[@salsamango5474]

Underrated comment 😂

[@hazel_witch2587]

Underrated by far😂❤

[@oshkeet]

Probably invented by one of the Sackvilles...

[@1th_to_comment.]

​@@oshkeet hate those guys! (Except Lobelia, she kinda redeems herself at the end.)

[@officialmkamzeemwatela]

This is a religious term about the split with God but ok

[@kaylaanderson7951]

I love your interpretations of LOTR so, so much. I met Sean Astin two weeks ago at a Comic Con, and my friend had him sign a painting of Frodo reading next to a tree. She asked him to put write a message on the tree that said "Sam loves Frodo," and while he did, he smiled and said, "It's true you know." Then at the Q&A, he was talking about how he loves that the queer community has latched on the relationship and there's nothing that says they didn't kiss each other more intimately. Sean Astin is the nicest human, and we need a billion more people like him in this world.

[@raveneskridge3143]

Sean actively ships Frodo and Sam and i love that for him. he's even admitted to reading some fanfic haha

[@charleston1789]

This comment made me so happy, it’s wonderful to know Sean Astin is a nice person

[@Cat_Woods]

I'm so glad to learn that. I saw an interview where he talked a lot about being a Christian, so I feared the worst. So glad he doesn't use his faith to excuse bigotry. Wish there were more Christians like him.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

His Mom is great. A film channel I love who covers mostly historical best actress Oscar races did a big video on her a couple months ago. It's very worthwhile watching. Sean Astin cameo near the end lol.

[@klisterklister2367]

​@@picahudsoniaunflocked5426 what's the channel name?

[@jenniewomack5113]

When I was ten I was reading and said "Mom what does 'queer' mean?" "uhhhh read me the sentence...... odd, yeah it just means odd." Then later I said queer in front of my dad and he was like "who taught you that word?" "The Hobbit" "it's an old fashioned word, it doesn't mean that anymore. Don't use it, you'll get teased." Oh to be an innocent bookish child in 1993.

[@emilyreames7748]

I... as a child I only knew "gay" to mean "bright and happy," despite knowing multiple gay people - this is because my child-self who grew up to be pan figured both straight and gay people were just making strategic decisions about dating pools.

[@serafine666]

Yeah, it's depressing when you know all of the old words but you can't use them because modernity has painted them over and scribbled something different over them.

[@strawberry.sunshine]

Someone called me queer when I was 10 (2002) and I, also an innocent bookish child, thought it meant odd or weird. Another child explained to me it meant gay and I was so confused.

[@rylsahawneh3662]

@@strawberry.sunshine8-year-old me getting asked if I was gay after having only ever read the word in old books where it meant happy. I knew I was being insulted but I couldn’t under how being happy was supposed to be a bad thing. Turns out I’m both trans and a lesbian. 😅

[@middlenerd178]

In elementary school “getting to know you” activities, one of the words I used to describe myself was queer, because the thesaurus told me it was a synonym for odd. No one told me. Happy to say I use queer in the not-straight way now.

[@sapphicdreamer]

I always thought the way males were portrayed in their relationships to each other was just a reflection of the normal interactions between male friends of the time. It seems (and ( could be wrong) that its only been in the last century that (the Western world at least) have made masculinity very toxic. The LOTR always felt like seeing good, positive examples of masculinity. Hugging, holding hands or expressing love for your friends doesn't have to be inherently romantic or sexual, except to the Western mindset, apparently.

[@attilamarics3374]

Or it just means Hobbits act differently.

[@Safiyahalishah]

Yeah in Pakistan that kind of physical contact between men is pretty standard. You walk down the street and you're likely to see men holding hands.

[@TheTricktracktruck]

@@Safiyahalishah Also in Morocco

[@meatysheep]

Exactly. Lets view this from a female point. Imagine the characters weren't male but female. Would people still perceive their actions and mannerisms as gay? I don't think so. For girls and women it is more normalized to be touchy and lovey with one another without being sexually attracted/interested.

[@Crowborn]

even the birthplaces of globalized Western culture I.e. England had male kissing and touching as normalised depictions of friendship in like, the 18th century. It's a recent thing even for us.

[@quagsiremcgee1647]

If I may speak honestly. LOTR is one of my favorite books partially because it doesn't talk about sex very much. It's more comfortable for me to read stories that don't bring it up that much.

[@loststar2375]

Me too. I don't know why and I don't know what is wrong with me but I've never liked romance in books and I like a VERY FEW romance movies. I don't know, it's just sooo boring for me. But, I do like a lot of romantic songs in Spanish. I'm starting to think that maybe I'm more of a musical romantic person. (Sorry if my English is bad).

[@rustyhowe3907]

Me too! I like how it had its romances but never delved into the vulgar, it demonstrated HOW to love rather than Pollock painting the bedsheets.

[@Perseus-u4g]

Men and women like sex. Aragorn had kids. Womp womp

[@kuriousQuing21]

Because sex is the icing. You’re looking for the cake. Just like most of us. Our culture has confused the icing with the cake in terms of what carries the most depth JUST cuz they taste the sweetness of the icing first. Deeper, more meaningful love exists in friendship and familial friendships (friends that are like brothers and sisters). Sure, sex and romance is great, and one path to that deeper love. But it is a mistake to think that is the most meaningful love. it’s a part of it. A tiny part of it. But even with someone you’re romancing there has to be the depth of that deeper FRIENDSHIP that feels like family, for that love to carry you over with meaning till the end.

[@funilyily]

@@loststar2375omg same!!!!Since I was little I’ve always taught romance between heteros was lamo and super boring and then I tried dating a man and it was lamer than lame !!! Plus they don’t know how to please a woman🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️😭😭SO IT REALLY IS AS LAME AS IT SEEMS😢😢

[@nikaanuk8233]

If Ian McKellen says it's gay, then it's gay.

[@nostalji93]

Who dis Ian McKellen? I just know Gandalf the White! Btw if you shine white light through a prism it becomes a rainbow. If that isn't confirmation Idk what is!

[@human_plant]

Ian McKellen is the gatekeeper of homosexuality

[@goblinwizard735]

@@human_plant he sends the draft notices

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

@@nostalji93 You haven't read the books, have you? That's literally Gandalf's first indication that Saruman is no longer his friend.

[@Ollie_Unlikely]

The original gay wizard 😎

[@Wolfmania98]

fun fact: there is a 13th century old french version of the 'girl who pretended to be a boy' narrative (Yde et Olive) funner fact: they end up with a son called Croissant

[@thumper8684]

disappointing fact: Croissant does not necessarily mean the pastry product. It can also mean the crescent shape, such as that of a new moon. embarassing fact: I remember in the translation section of a French exam I interpreted the clashing of "eclaire" against "la fenetre" as cakes banging on a window. Eclaire is French for lightning.

[@mdeliacloherty]

!!!!

[@klisterklister2367]

​@@thumper8684in our version it's cakes

[@yan-amar]

@@thumper8684Cakes banging on a window :'D That's a wonderful world where it rains cakes.

[@emmaphilo4049]

Lmaooooo like the moon crescent (le croissant de lune)

[@colinneagle4495]

I must be on the internet too much, because when you started talking about food in the middle of the video, I assumed it was a segue to a sponsorship from HelloFresh

[@pinkajou656]

I actually went to skip ahead lol

[@mariovilas4176]

@@pinkajou656 same hahaha

[@lnt305]

I had a terrible time rewinding because I couldn’t find the „ad read“ again after skipping forward 😅

[@Brangelina-mt1tw]

​@@pinkajou656yeah me too!

[@nemomagnum]

@@lnt305 same

[@raylightbown4968]

I am 77 and avidly read fairy stories as a young boy, including Andrew Lang's books. As with the Grimm brothers, these were oral traditions from several centuries earlier. Indeed. Tolkien, like many English Lit adcademics taught Beowulf and Norse folk tales. Well done on delving the connections, which I had overlooked when I first read LOTR. As a queer old fart (though not Catholic or any other religious persuasion) I have seen love between men (or between women) as fraternal, idealistic or heroic, in addition to being romantic or erotic. I often say "Love is love is love - and comes in many forms and varieties". Excellent video, my dear.

[@Manueelaa]

As a cis straight woman, I've always loved Lord of the Rings because there's so much gentle masculinity and platonic love, and also because even though the women are just side characters, they're all really cool (Eowyn, Arwen, Galadriel).

[@molybdaenmornell123hopp5]

Don't forget Rosie Cotton. Someone had to make sure Sam didn't run off when things got dangerous.

[@lepinlucador6628]

And Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, although she only appears in name in 'The Lord Of The Rings' she is (as far as I can remember) the only female character to appear in both 'The Hobbit' and 'The Lord Of the Rings'. She is not that cool it has to be said, but interesting.

[@Weird_One_]

I do really appreciate the lack of romance in these books as an aroace person. So many fantasy books now have a giant focus on romance and sex, and it can be hard a lot of the time to find them without. Having this book be largely about platonic relationships is just really nice to me when they are almost always pushed to the side in the favor of romance in every other piece of media.

[@KateRichardson-c1e]

Me too! I appreciate the gay readings of LOTR, but I always felt it was an amazing portrayal of a queer platonic relationship - the best one I've ever come across.

[@marxllna]

we love some uptight religiousness

[@fellinuxvi3541]

​@@marxllna what has that got to do with anything?

[@ememem2952]

there is definitely a aroace reading of lotr

[@crimsonhoudini1521]

That’s one of the things I love about LOTR on my first reading. It just goes to show us the reader the multiple ways of how we share intimacy. And that platonic relationships are just special as romantic ones:)

[@missanthropy6174]

In defense of Eowyn and Faramir as a couple, and in defense of Eowyn’s story arc, I think you may have discounted Tolkein’s perspective in writing her and Faramir. I am someone who as a cis woman absolutely idolizes Eowyn and I have since I was a very young child. To me, her character never read as woman who wanted to be a warrior, but someone who wanted the freedom to do things that would make a difference and protect her loved ones. It’s not that she dislikes what is expected of her as a woman, it’s that in this time of crisis and war, she wants to ride out with her brother and uncle and protect the country and people she loves so dearly. I read her crush on Aragorn as not real love, but first as a desire to be like him and then as appreciation because he values and validates her bravery and desire to fight. In her life, hes the only person who thinks she’s capable of it and that endears him to her. Faramir is a scholar who deeply loves learning and a peaceful life. But with war looming, he was expected to be the perfect warrior archetype like his brother. So he puts aside his desires and dedicated himself to becoming that. Despite not being a natural warrior, Faramir still takes great pride in serving to protect his people and does so without complaint. Even if it wasn’t expected of him, I still think he would have chosen to do so anyway. When asked which character is the most like himself, Tolkien always said Faramir. Like Faramir, Tolkien is a scholar and bookworm with passion for peace, nature, and learning. But as a young man, he left his studies to fight in a horrendous war. When that war ended, he put down his proverbial sword and resumed as a scholar, as did Faramir. I think Eowyn finding her true happiness by also putting down her sword and becoming a healer is meant to mirror The characters with each other. It also has a parallel with many women of the time that served as military medics and nurses returning from war and resuming their lives and finding husbands. Some went on to continue in a medical profession, others not but they did not go back to war because that was never what joining up was about for them. When Eowyn and Faramir get together and become healers, it’s because it’s what they want to do in a world now free of war, they have the freedom to do so. Middle Earth doesn’t need warriors to serve and protect it anymore. It needs scholars and healers to help it recover from war. Tolkien wrote an ending for her that he himself desired idealized beyond all else for himself and he thought she was the soulmate of the character he identifies most with. I really love this ending for her because I live in a world where cataclysmic climate change and dozens of systems of brutal oppression threaten the life and freedom of myself and everyone else. In the year 2024 I find myself marching and protesting for rights my grandmother had. It’s not with a sword, but I fight as an activist against the proverbial hoards of orcs actively destroying my country. I cannot imagine a happier future than one where I don’t have to fight anymore and I can live in peace with my partner and not have to worry about climate change or my right to autonomy or my country’s military committing more war crimes or our prisons acting as slave labor camps or billions of animals being needlessly slaughtered every year. The fact that Eowyn’s character is rewarded with such peace and happiness in the end shows an Tolkein’s admiration and respect for her bravery and demand for freedom of choice in her life.

[@missanthropy6174]

@@nourriadh6976 yeah especially since so many instances of women cross dressing in history have been motivated by either trying to keep themselves safe (traveling dressed as a man) or because they were trying to do something women weren’t legally allowed to do. Eowyn seems perfectly happy as a woman. She keeps her long hair, enjoys domestic life, and she pursues romances with men. The reason she cross dresses as a man is because she’s desperate to fight with her king. As a woman now, I don’t need to cross dress to join the army or learn martial arts. And I still enjoy typically feminine things like sewing, cooking, makeup, dresses, and having a male partner.

[@nonbinaryrussia]

thank you for sharing

[@whisper180]

Yeah, I think that's one significant reading Verity kind of skims over and just summarizes as Tolkien valorizing/idealizing peace. The impact of this ideal on all the characters is very consistent and informs their motivations throughout the story.

[@Li_Tobler]

Brilliant and I agree 100%

[@camille8099]

100% my thinking as well, i was hoping i wasn’t the only one who’s taken to reading eowyn that way

[@the_aberration7398]

Shout out to Leonora Blanche Lang, Andrew Lang’s wife, for actually doing most of the work compiling “his” Fairy Books. (Along with a team of other women.)

[@clinkedylinkedy1]

ooooh!

[@mariovilas4176]

Figures :D

[@Hypogean7]

Tolkien was most proud of his translation of Beowulf to modern English, he didn't take credit for other stories. He was a linguist first of all, and a medievalist.

[@МаркЧереватый]

​@Hypogean7 this comment isn't about Tolkien

[@RexExLiberi]

Quoting aother comment: [...] Andrew Lang books is that he was primarily the editor. [...] Lang himself writes in a preface: “The fairy books have been almost wholly the work of Mrs Lang, who has translated and adapted them from the French, German, Portuguese, Italian, Spanish, Catalan and other languages."

[@yakubduncan9019]

One of the things that drives me crazy about the polygon article is that we actually know how 1950s novelists wrote about queerness. Giovanni's room was published in the same decade; The City and the Pillar was published in 1948; the Pied Piper of Lovers was published in 1935; The Western Shore in 1925 and Death in Venice in 1912. I... don't get the same vibes from LoTR

[@johnny12022]

It reveals a rather shallow view of humanity, if every loving relationship between men must inevitably be reduced to a homosexual one. Clearly a lack of emotional education is prevalent in our modern world. Too much social media, perhaps?

[@nomanisanisland117]

@12022 There is definitely erasure of platonic male affection in culture, but just from the jump in this video I think it's fair to call the scene of Sam reuniting with Frodo in Rivendell something more than that (the blushing and all). The issue is that so much of media has also buried queer affection in so much coding and inneundo, that many queer audiences are understandably eager to spot moments of it anywhere we can.

[@johnny12022]

@@nomanisanisland117 The first thing Gandalf does with Frodo is to stifle any of the Hobbit's feelings of self-pity. And honestly interpreting scenes according to a fair and wholistic analysis of the work is one thing. Shoehorning one's own perspective into the text as a matter of self-validation is entirely another.

[@johnbravemusic]

@@nomanisanisland117 You know whats worse? The word "queer" being co opted to be put under a banner of sexuality. So queer no longer means being strange or odd but it means being a weird sexual deviant and how thats totally okay. It's disgusting.

[@charlesterry2480]

Uhh no we don't? What do those have to do with anything

[@rhicrtr]

One thing I would add to the bit about the intimacy of WW1 soldiers, the world wars were the first time a LOT of people found out they weren't the only gay people on earth, which was a big catalyst for the queer liberation movement that followed. Sometimes two boys in the trench who love each other IS gay

[@lucyremson]

That last sentence is really funny!! Good job :)

[@naluzoniro]

Two boys, cowering in a trench, five feet apart 'cause they're not gay (except they are and the daily brushes with mass death will soon precipitate them into each other's arms)

[@AzraelSeraphino]

That's kinda sad ngl, two guys falling in love in a ww1 trench but most of them not making it out of the war alive to continue their relationship, most of them dying together

[@XLightChanX]

the hypothesis that WW1 sparked a fight for equal human rights says it's because those gay man had to fight, suffer and die in the war just like straight men, but had less rights. not because "they found out other gays exist" lol

[@trevorrobertsondoublebass4233]

Wait wait wait wait wait, you did not just call Faramir “bootleg Aragorn”

[@emilyjensenius4289]

Which Ytuber was it who called Halbrand in Rings of Power "Kmart Aragorn" or something like that?? 😆 LOL

[@littlemissevel3607]

surely he is knock off Boromir if anything...

[@nickklavdianos5136]

​@@littlemissevel3607he's quite a different charachter than Boromir, so I wouldn't say that.

[@AwesomeOwl5]

literally thank you!!!!!! faramir slander is so not it fam 😩 of anything the chapter about eowyn and faramir is imo the best and really only in depth example of textual heterosexual romanctic love they’re so healing babes !!!!

[@mdeliacloherty]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@prphawke]

I love when video essays suddenly become good pieces of investigative journalism

[@TobiasFangorIsntCis]

💯

[@TindraSan]

I need someone to make a playlist of specifically this so I can find more of them

[@jamdoe6486]

​@@TindraSan"I rated places with 0 reviews" isn't really a video essay but it sure does change partway through!

[@kostajovanovic3711]

Thank you Tommy!

[@prphawke]

@@TindraSan hbomberguy's 2 latest videos also come to mind 😅

[@emmy8526]

An interesting fact to note about the Andrew Lang books is that he was primarily the editor. Leonora Blanche Alleyne, his wife, did most of the work. Lang himself writes in a preface: “The fairy books have been almost wholly the work of Mrs Lang, who has translated and adapted them from the French, German, Portuguese, Italian, Spanish, Catalan and other languages.” She and a team of other writers, mostly women, did the translations and wrote the adaptations.

[@sawanna508]

Iteressting a lot of the fairytales collected by the Brothers Grimm were told by women.

[@funilyily]

Guys ,this makes sense ,think about it ,who is more inclined to read about fairies ?Children!Who gives children those magical books?Their mothers !Waow

[@karelfinn2343]

Here's my take on Eowyn. Eowyn is a badass feminist hero who proves everybody (including Gandalf) wrong about what women can and should be expected to do. Eowyn is also desperately depressed and trying to die at the end of a sword just so that she can feel like she's done something worthwhile. Two things can be true. Her relationship with Faramir is not about Faramir, a man, convincing Eowyn, a woman, to know her place; it is about Faramir, a pacifist, convincing Eowyn, a warrior, that the war is over and she should find peace with that instead of continuing to chase death. It works for me. Faramir is pretty much the only guy in the book who really gets what's going on, so it feels true to his character.

[@JayofLemuria]

Agreed! I always found them finding each other to be a sign of healing and her making an intentional choice to release her trauma and realize she had nothing left to “prove”-she could just become herself, along with someone else who’d always been striving to be Other than he truly was.

[@StormEyes1991]

I completely agree. Éowyn rocks.

[@embyrr922]

That was always my read on her as well. Trapped, hemmed in by others' expectations, constantly disregarded by everyone around her, and unable to do anything as her uncle's senility erodes the safety of her home. I was my partner's full time carer for several years (he's recovered now, thanks to some incredible doctors) and the constant need to make things better in the face of something that you have so little ability to affect is soul destroying. I never got to that point, but I'm very sympathetic to her desire to do something impactful and then stop existing. Her arc in the houses of healing with Faramir always reminds me of the end of Princess Mononoke, when Ashitaka tells San that the forest spirit isn't dead, and "He is here with us now, telling us: it's time for both of us to live."

[@elektra121]

This! Thank you! Everytime, I'm astonished anew if people don't seem to get that Eowyn going to war isn't bravery or the wish to be a warrior - but a s****de attempt, because she is severely depressed. I have been depressed and the only possibility to creatively depict this, for me, was Eowyn fanfiction. There is not much realistic depiction of depression around, and I very much felt Eowyn's struggles. Also, as a pacifist myself, I never got why being a healer is so disregarded and well... ki***ng people sooo much cooler and better. I think Faramir and Eowyn are perfect for each other, they very much understand each other and have a lot of similarities. This has been and will be my OTP. :)

[@HikariMichi42]

@@elektra121 Yeah thank you ... I'm also a pacifist and society's rampant glorification of violence, both in real life and in fiction, has always disturbed me. I also love that Frodo explicitly becomes a pacifist by the end of the story, but predictably the movies cut the scenes that make this clear. Well, at least they didn't add any action scenes for him! (But they did make him seem less mentally resilient, which isn't good either.)

[@afrothekobold]

ngl, one of my personal favorite interpretations of the "I am no man." bit is that Tolkin was reading Macbeth with the whole "no man of women born can harm Macbeth" with the answer that "I was a man who was from his mothers womb untimely ripped c-section baby)" and was like "that's bullshit and over complicated."

[@andrewbouse8968]

valid, when I read that in High School English class I was like, "Wouldn't it be simpler if he was just killed by a woman?"

[@JaylukKhan]

Tolkien's frustration with Macbeth definitely inspired him. The ents and huorns attacking Isengard was inspired by the Burnham Wood prophecy from the samd play.

[@excruciatingsleep]

"Soup: the food that is juice" is now my favorite phrase, thank you.

[@MiotaLee]

goodsoup is food

[@phryg2035]

idk if i've ever been this excited for a video essay before

[@AnarchoCatBoyEthan]

same my friend

[@aliendeathrocker]

Same. I'm living for this.

[@Kiki-bo9en]

I gasped in excitement when it came up

[@clinkedylinkedy1]

right?! immediate click.

[@Louisyed]

Ohmygod, I am literally constantly pausing it to repeat bits every few seconds because I'm enjoying it so much 😂

[@ianthompson1907]

I liked learning about the Violet Fairy Book. I think Eowyn also kills the Witch King because Tolkien didn't enjoy how some of the prophecy works out in MacBeth. He liked the idea of a woman killing the one no man born of a woman can kill better than using a c-section as a work around for the term born. He also has the ents move the forest to Isengard to get the orcs rather than having guys in disguise like when Birnam Wood come to Dunsinane. Tolkien never said the Eowyn part straight out, but he did say MacBeth made him want to “devise a setting in which the trees might really march to war.” and he is on record being very critical of Shakespeare throughout his life.

[@emmaphilo4049]

Interesting 👍

[@camille8099]

i always assumed as well that eowyns i am no man line was directly inspired by macbeth, maybe due to me reading lotr at the same time i had to read the play for school 🤣

[@kdmw]

I also read that somewhere, though I can't remember where! It resonated with me because I felt the same when I first read Macbeth in high school (about no man born of women anyway, I don't remember what I thought of the trees)

[@lilahvandenburgh6821]

It's funny because I had always assumed, whether he professed to liking Shakespeare or no, that he was tapping that literary tradition of girls cross dressing that's so prominent in Shakespeare's work. But thinking of him doing it more in a "fix-it-fic" kind of way is hysterical

[@joepugh678]

I've heard a lot of people recognize the Shakespeare references, but rarely do I hear anyone note the nod to the tale of Theseus in ROTK.

[@krankarvolund7771]

I don't question the part about the violet fairy book, that was probably one of his inspirations, but the "I am a man" bit of Eowynn is usually accepted as coming from Macbeth, where the witches tell Macbeth no man born from a woman would kill him, and Tolkien thought after reading the scene, that making his killer a man born by caesarean was not elegant and he could do better ^^ It's also where the Ents came from, in that same prophecy, the witches tell Macbeth he would only be dethroned when the woods would walk to his castle. Tolkien was very upset that the woods walking were dudes hiding behing treebranches and not literally trees walking XD

[@Brangelina-mt1tw]

Yes, I've heard the Macbeth reason too! It doesn't contradict the majority of this video, but it's still an important detail. This needs more upvotes

[@arambles1]

He really said “nice try Shakespeare but i’m better”

[@iprobablyforgotsomething]

@arambles1 -- And he was! xD . I mean, if you're gonna hype up a promise of walking trees, even by implication, a man in a --b-e-a-r-- tree suit just disappoints.

[@thepap000]

I'm glad we aren't accusing tolking of meaning to write it like that. Why can't men just be affectionate with each other.

[@DreamersOfReality]

I thought like that too, once. Then it turned out I was gay. But all jokes aside, cis-masculine western culture is defined by what it is, but... mostly by what it isn't. Men are so afraid to be perceived as unmanly, that they'll lash out against any and all real or imagined slights against their gender/sexuality. Particularly when it comes to being likened to any effeminite or gay quality. As a result, masculinity has crystallized into a toxic cyst, and it's not going to improve until men (among others. Women are also actors that can reinforce what is and isn't considered masculine) can divest themselves from this fear. Learning how to accept that masculinity need not be a rigid thing requiring a ring of spears to defend. What it means to be a man can truly be defined however you wish. Be the change you want to see, and be unafraid of detractors.

[@NickNightfall1711]

​@@DreamersOfRealitywell said.

[@UlricGrim]

If my best friend helped me battle goblins and orcs, saved me from a flesh eating spider, and carried me up Mt. Doom when I was too weak and couldn’t carry on..I’d kiss his ass too, more than once!

[@molybdaenmornell123hopp5]

​@@DreamersOfReality I'm a straight cis man and still prefer kindness with my male friends. Then again, if you were to ask me what I identify as, my answer would start something like "musician, moralist, writer, eco, thinker, feeler, lover, clown ..." with sex, gender and sexuality well down the list.

[@bricksloth6920]

"'...she was inspired by this Valkyrie because......they were both women.......and both...had hair."' I LOLed out loud

[@dr.metalhead5452]

It's a funny joke, but someone who sees no other similarity between Eowyn and medieval shield-maiden (including valkyrie) characters clearly has very limited knowledge and understanding of medieval (Norse, especially) literature

[@nostalji93]

​@@dr.metalhead5452 besides having a shield and being a maiden? And Valkyries are basicly reaper, so what exactly are those similarities? Those are pretty superficial similarities. After speaking so patronizingly: Please enlighten us wtfdym?!

[@thedreadpiratewesley]

As a queer neurodivergent person whose top Special Interest has been Tolkien since I was like 13, this video feels like it was made specifically tailored to my obsessions and I wish I could inject it directly into my bloodstream. I'm so, so delighted that you followed that trail of evidence and found what seems to be an incredibly likely source of inspiration for him, that's something I probably never would have known about him and his writing if not for you! Also David Day asserting Eowyn is based on Brynhild just because they're both women who can fight is so in character for him, the man is notorious for just asserting nonsense he made up as fact and pretending his headcanons are actually canon.

[@nostalji93]

Would you share your opinion on an odd thought of mine? I was thinking why "queer" became to mean "not heterosexual"? (English isn't my first language). To me Tolkiens use makes a lot more sense and is more intuitive. "Queer" as in odd. Its not like "gay" is much better to describe homosexuality, but at least it meant something positive. I dont understand why the meanings of those words changed. Its not like they are good metaphors or generally good at describing what they mean now. To me its feels weird that people want to identify as "queer"/odd. Or does it make your sexuality sound more edgy? "Neurodivergent" sounds cool, too. But in my opinion its a lot more discriptive than "queer".

[@gingganggoolie]

@@nostalji93 The oldest meaning of the word Queer is just strange, or odd. And it matches other euphemisms for non-cisheterosexuality, like "bent." Basically if you weren't fitting in to society's expected role for you, you were strange, and probably a problem. "Queer" just got used so much to mean strange in an LGBT way that it became a slur. People started to reclaim Queer as a label for themselves as activists, more or less saying "Yes, I am different to you, I am a problem for the restrictive world you want to live in, and I want to remake the world so that it has a place for people like me"

[@thedreadpiratewesley]

I like that summary, and getting much deeper into the history of reclaiming terms like queer might be beyond the scope of a KZbin comment section. But one other thing that I always like to note is something relating to the comment that gay "meant something positive," which I assume is a reference to the old meaning of "happy" or "joyous." As someone who was in an American public school in the mid 2000s, I've actually been called gay as an insult far more than I've been called queer as an insult. Which is just to say that almost every word queer people use to describe themselves has been used as a slur at one point or another. The meanings of words are always changing (a poignant topic for the comments of a Tolkien video, what with him being a passionate linguist), and I'm happy to be one small part of a movement to change these into words of inclusion rather than hurt.

[@MaryamMaqdisi]

Thank you for sharing this

[@nostalji93]

@@thedreadpiratewesley Well said. The use of "gay" as is an insult important nuance which I disregarded, but its worth mentioning. And sorry if anything I brought up was offensive. I really don't mean to. I am just curious.

[@iceheartqtyger]

Here's my contribution to this discussion: "...'How long is your rope, I wonder?' Sam paid it out slowly, measuring it with his arms: 'Five, ten, twenty, thirty ells, more or less,' he said. 'Who’d have thought it!' Frodo exclaimed. 'Ah! Who would?’ said Sam. '...It looks a bit thin, but it’s tough; and soft as milk to the hand’" (Two Towers, 595)

[@xEloiseKerryx]

OH MY

[@tbotalpha8133]

LMAO

[@emmaphilo4049]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Hypogean7]

That's just having your brain in the gutter.

[@thatpeskyrat]

@@Hypogean7 But it's a funny gutter

[@educampsrocks]

What I find really interesting about the topic is the fact that i’ve always admired LotR as one of the few pieces of media that actually represents positive masculinity in a thoughtless, genuine way. It was really surprising to me when I realized most people just interpreted it as somewhat gay or affeminate. Really made me think about how easily people accredit whatever isn’t “traditionally masculine” to homosexuality. It is so insane we have been conditioned (as a culture) to react this way whenever we see a different display of love and affection between men. I think LotR unintentionally became a highly progressive artpiece and a slight moral test,; the way you decide to interpret the message defies much of how you view the world imo, which is what all great art should do. edit: I just finished this video and, ohmyghodddddd, the way you so carefully worded an extremely complex web of topics, That was beautiful. What an amazing script i am shocked. Proves that art really goes beyond the creator. Amazing, I needed to see this, thank you Love your videos btw! banger as always, Love from México.

[@tomigun5180]

Finally someone gets it.

[@sambeckett2428]

It's more that people these days- particularly women, but also a certain kind of man- are deeply afraid of platonic male friendship, which is opaque to them.

[@tomigun5180]

@@sambeckett2428 Yes, they aim for the atomization of society. Friends together are strong - and this is bad for the Marxists. They want only individuals, who are alone, and are weak without strong connections, like friendship. They hate strong traditional communities, like family and the nation.

[@Swagnar666]

I know it's a joke, but I feel you're doing a disservice to Gimli when he asks for a single hair from Galadriel's head. The Farewell to Lórien reads as follows: “‘And what gift would a Dwarf ask of the Elves?’ said Galadriel, turning to Gimli. ‘None, Lady,’ answered Gimli. ‘It is enough for me to have seen the Lady of the Galadhrim, and to have heard her gentle words.’ ‘Hear all ye Elves!’ she cried to those about her. ‘Let none say again that Dwarves are grasping and ungracious! Yet surely, Gimli son of Glóin, you desire something that I could give? Name it, I bid you! You shall not be the only guest without a gift.’ ‘There is nothing, Lady Galadriel,’ said Gimli, bowing low and stammering. ‘Nothing, unless it might be - unless it is permitted to ask, nay, to name a single strand of your hair, which surpasses the gold of the earth as the stars surpass the gems of the mine. I do not ask for such a gift. But you commanded me to name my desire.’ The Elves stirred and murmured with astonishment, and Celeborn gazed at the Dwarf in wonder, but the Lady smiled. ‘It is said that the skill of the Dwarves is in their hands rather than in their tongues,’ she said; ‘yet that is not true of Gimli. For none have ever made to me a request so bold and yet so courteous. And how shall I refuse, since I commanded him to speak? But tell me, what would you do with such a gift?’ ‘Treasure it, Lady,’ he answered, ‘in memory of your words to me at our first meeting. And if I ever return to the smithies of my home, it shall be set in imperishable crystal to be a heirloom of my house, and a pledge of good will between the Mountain and the Wood until the end of days.’ Then the Lady unbraided one of her long tresses, and cut off three golden hairs, and laid them in Gimli’s hand.” The significance is only understood when you read the Silmarillion and the eternal bastard Fëanor repeatedly harassed Galadriel for her hair, 3 times to be exact, and each time she refused because she knew Fëanor was up to some bullshit. Gimli was by no means weird or creepy. He was a poet and and appreciator of beauty for its own sake, as dwarves are want to be, what with being great miners and craftsmen of the mountain halls. Gimli is a beautiful soul and deserves to be honoured as such.

[@sawanna508]

Also in European culture a strand or lock of hair was one of the most preciouse token of love from real live women.

[@finnilyenough]

The author didn't mean to make a gay masterpiece but he did anyway and it went hard

[@Hypogean7]

Of course he didn't. He also didn't expect to get calls in the middle of the night from some stoners in America telling him that they identified with Tom Bombadil, but he did get them.

[@LunaticoSolario]

Ikr!

[@zenosAnalytic]

Re: Eowyn, I kinda wonder, given Tolkien's low opinion of Shakespeare particularly due to Macbeth, if Eowyn's "I Am No Man" line and fight with the Witch King was his "improvement" of caesarean-born McDuff killing Macbeth.

[@vickymc9695]

Yer my English teacher used to say that he was really annoyed by the battle in Macbeth. So rewrote it.

[@rajukollati6874]

Also the part where the trees move

[@zenosAnalytic]

@@rajukollati6874yup! can't forget that

[@Alex-cw3rz]

So that's what he meant we he said Frodo destroyed Sauron's ring...

[@wellwell7950]

No wonder the ring was written about so sensually.

[@yan-amar]

The ring that could change its size to fit perfectly.

[@pisscvre69]

Sauron was just “frustrated” who knew one so small could please him finally, its about how you use it just as frodo did UwU

[@TransTheVoid]

@@pisscvre69 After all daddy Morgoth had long since been banished into the void. Last time Sauron enjoyed himself was in Numenor and well, Frodo had experience with being the master in the relationship

[@theblazingpearl1067]

I think it can be a sort of gay thing, but I think its more kinda like a QPR (queerplatonic relationship). Frodo to me seems like an aromantic icon. He can appreciate the beauty of people like Galadriel, and I think that has more to do with bisexuality than anything else, but he never really showed any signs of seeking out a "romantic" relationship, at least in the sense of a typical heteronormative relationship. Sam is a bit different, he's definitely alloromantic given his relationship to Rosie but still had VERY strong platonic feelings and a very strong commitment to being there for Frodo, so I think that while it CAN be perceived as gay, its more a sort of besties who kiss each other and cuddle on the occasion.

[@charlesterry2480]

1:42 how is that g/ay? 1:35 I know why you’re saying this but hear me out I’m g/ay and not even *_I_* didn’t even think of that. (Referring to 0:17 on what Iain said) you know why? Because I want to be entertained! maybe it’s just me but I hate whenever positive mascu/linity (as in the antithesis of tox/ic mascu/linity) is portrayed along with a man being *_le gaspe dramatique_* vul/nerable! Say it ain’t so! is treated as ga/y coded? Like there are so many men who are into women or full on straight in the real world and fictional one that are taught from a young age that they have to be breadwinners that they have to be the strong ma/cho ones and they are not allowed to be vulne/rable. “Stiff upper lip” And all that. Or even when they are okay with being vuln/erable! they’re sha/med for it by soci/ety, and by the people around them. And unfortunately one way is saying that it “gives g/ay vibes”. Basically saying through our interpretation of our societal cul/tures, that being g/ay is inherently effeminate for a man or mannish for a woman, and a man showing vul/nerability is we/ak, and If it’s not weak, it’s not man/ly, and therefore it’s more tuned with femi/ninity and therefore g/ay? It’s deceptively simple, but it goes around the full circle . I don’t like it. EDIT: it is significantly less talked about if it were women. I mean sure some people might talk about “les/bians” or “and they were roommates” but we *_know_* that if these two were replaced with women that there would be a starkly different feel about their friendship and closeness. Because it’s more into the “norm” of fe/male. Even to our more educated and awaken eyes. Oh and I didn’t even THINK about how we view foreign cul/tures! Like I think the Burma people (?) correct me if I’m wrong. But if I remember correctly, it’s perfectly normal and platonic for same gender friends to hold hands. It’s been normal for centuries maybe more. But to our eyes it seems kind of “sus” or “g/ay”

[@tuomivuori]

Oh my god, this is actually huge if the coloured Fairy Books connection hasn't been discovered before! With the amount of Tolkien research that exists, it's crazy that this kind of thing has remained hidden for so long - because I think the similarities with the invisibility ring especially are way too big to be just coincidences. And it makes so much sense that he'd include ideas from these books he loved as a kid! Also, I wonder why seemingly no-one had suggested the legend of Hua Mulan as an inspiration for Éowyn, that's probably the most well-known iteration of the 'woman disguised as a man in order to go to war' theme. (Also, as a Finn, I take strange pride in the fact that the version of the story where the girl gets an enormous schlong seems to be Finnish :D)

[@Pippis78]

Very much this. She just whiped the table with a litany of Tolkien scholars 😀

[@xEloiseKerryx]

Hahaaa god I love that, have there been many discussions about its likeness to the kalevala? It’s fascinating

[@sefiraganton6387]

​@xEloiseKerryx Tolkien LOVED the Kalevala, from what I recall - both the stories and the language - Finnish being one of his biggest inspirations for Elvish.

[@flyingstapler1241]

There are plenty of stories and historical events from ancient China about women disguising themselves as men to do men-only things like pursing education or fight in war. Mulan is just one of them. It's so common as a literature trope and in history for China that I don't even specifically think about Mulan- it's normal to us. I don't know if Mulan was even that known in the West before Disney for Tolkien to have taken inspiration.

[@Hypogean7]

Why would an Englishman mostly in love with the history of Europe have a copy of the Ballad of Mulan?

[@CMelon-xe1qc]

Ummm, just, I thought that Eowyns whole thing was just that Tolkien was upset at Macbeth and was like “I’LL FIX IT!”

[@Zephyr_Zeitgeist]

It can be more than one thing.

[@CMelon-xe1qc]

Fair

[@JH-lo9ut]

"A woman?! Now there's a plot twist"

[@ali6418]

I have no citation to back this up, but I can't help but feel like, master linguist, JRR Tolkien just fell in so much love with the "I am no man" pun that he was willing to twist both the logic of his world, and his worldview, just not to spoil it.

[@Envy_May]

i wonder if it's also kind of a macb*th reference since he was notoriously opinionated about how that play ended lol, and it kind of has something similar with the witches' prophecy about who can kill him

[@ygslyn6732]

@@Envy_Maywhy did you censor Macbeth?

[@Envy_May]

@@ygslyn6732 UR NOT SUPPOSED TO SAY THAT

[@ygslyn6732]

@@Envy_May I’m confused

[@Envy_May]

@@ygslyn6732 it's cursed !

[@IonIsFalling7217]

As a queer woman, I have to say I’ve never seen Frodo and Sam as gay. Deep friendships are okay too; not everyone wasn’t just roommates.

[@GreyhawkTheAngry]

Thank you.

[@Jakov-or7fp]

That is correct, also it is very unlikely that Tolkien would write gay characters, because he was a devout chatolic who had a 99% Chance of beliving that homosexuality is a sin.

[@caeandstars]

as a queer man, i've always viewed their relationship as queer, along with some other m/m relationships in the books, because it brought me comfort and helped me connect with the work more (lotr and Tolkien's work in general played a very big part in my life).

[@melina_0455]

I don't really like that all and any physical touches between men showing affection must fall under the category of "gay suspicion". I think it reinforces the clichés that masculinity must be manly man punching his bro on the back rather than a less toxic, gentler one that can say "I love you" the same way a girl can say it to her best friend. I find it beautiful that it is this sort of masculinity that got soldiers out of the inhuman hell of trenches, and that men don't have to wait to be gay to experience this kind of love.

[@DreamersOfReality]

While not every soldier in the trench was gay, there were actually some high-profile gay WWI vets! Honestly, that affection and platonic love between men came to be viewed as homosexual is just silly.

[@CloneCaptainRex7567]

I mean queer readings of fictional characters doesn't mean that men can't be like this. In fact, it is rare in media that gay men are this physically gentle with each other, fuck even rarer to have a gay man's love interest be his best friend first and then end it with a happy ending. Most male friendships that people read as romantic are just that. Friendships. Reading smth as gay doesn't erase that really. It just widens the appeal

[@human_plant]

"The princess suddenly felt she was the man she had been pretending to be" Literally me 🎀

[@snakesnoteyes]

Good on ya!

[@minivergur]

That one moment clip of Eowyn telling Theodin that she was going to save him, and him responding with "You already have" hit me so hard

[@Lyrog]

The gayest thing in Tolkien's books is when Turin strips naked an elf dude and chases him around in a forest because he annoyed him.

[@Millions1000]

the obsessed "weird" part is exactly the content I love ;) It very much feels like the way I am obsessed about where some samples come from.

[@emilyemick6852]

Exceptional video!!!! When someone asked Sean Astin whether Sam and Frodo should have kissed, he said, "First of all, how do you know they didn't?"

[@sparr00w]

“You there I see you sit down” Me slowly taking my hands off the keyboard. I’ve never felt so called out 😂

[@clinkedylinkedy1]

like the eye of sauron illuminating you

[@Uidor]

It was ever so slightly hypocritical of Verily though, to discount us fans of the extended edition by citing PJ’s intent that the theatricals be considered the definitive version, when a large part of her point relies on the death of the author.

[@CrystalSki67]

MEEEE TOOOO

[@briansmith303]

@@UidorAlso always remember that PJ made The Hobbit as well, not just LotR. So he is not beyond questioning and second-guessing. 😁

[@billychops1280]

Seriously doubt Tolkien wrote anything gay in his stuff, you know cuz he was a “devout catholic”

[@CloneCaptainRex7567]

You didn't watch the video did you?

[@Hypogean7]

@@CloneCaptainRex7567 He did. And there are so many reaches here.

[@solring5721]

​@@CloneCaptainRex7567 This video isn't about a queer history of LOTR, it's about the history of LOTR if you view it with a queer lens. There is no queer history of LOTR because it isn't queer, and neither is it's creator or it's inspirations. Queer is a modern concept refined over decades of theory and cultural development into what it is now. Anything queer about Tolkien or his creations is purely a product of modern interpretation.

[@Hypogean7]

@@solring5721 Isn't that just worse? I know that Tolkien liked applicability, but it just feels like you're rejecting the actual text and implanting your own.

[@HOVNA]

​@@Hypogean7 The actual text wasn't rejected. It's literally just a different reading for its own sake. Nobody is arguing that this is some right interpretation. It was interesting af

[@bigorange4919]

One thing I absolutely love about lotr is how characters can love and show affection to each other without it being sexual or romantic. That moment when Bilbo is crying and Frodo puts his hand on his shoulder is a really good example of this imo. I think making their relationships about sex ruins them for me. I think two men acting like this and it not being sexual is just very foreign to us. Before I say this I am not Christian or religious or anything, but the way people act in this story reminds me of Jesus in the Bible because he had a deep love for everyone around him and wasn’t afraid to show it, and it was obviously not about sex at all. Y’all can think what you want, but this is how I interpret the relationships and seeing how Tolkien was a huge Christ fan, I think I may be on to something with this one

[@Hdehshzyhwjw]

As a kid watching the behind the scenes for the movies, the parts where viggo mortensen is kissing billy boyd and talking about how he’d been wanting to do that is largely what made me first start coming to terms with my own sexuality. It was really the first time in my life i’d seen men kissing and it wasn’t played off as a joke or anything. Sure they joked about it, but in those interviews everyone felt safe to talk about how often they had all kissed each other without feeling ashamed at all Just in general how the whole cast (especially ian mckellen) and even the characters within the story were so open about their feelings about themselves and each other really resonated with a timid me who was scared of how i felt. Never been able to see the series in the same way since

[@Awidferd]

I HAD TO GO WATCH THAT BECAUSE YOU SAID THIS! it was very gay

[@rruysch]

i had completely forgotten about this in the behind the scenes. gayer than the books somehow... they were very confident and full of love for one another. apart from orlando who they rightly took the mic out of.

[@davebob4973]

wha orlando bloom do

[@robinpayne125]

A superb exploration of the nature of the relationships. Particularly good about framing the portrayal of platonic male relationships in terms of the First World War, something too often overlooked. Thankfully you left open Legolas and Gimli. Don't even try to deny it. In the undying lands theirs is the undying love.

[@rakbung]

The compounding stamina and duration of love as expressed between a dwarf and elf ♥

[@AzraelSeraphino]

​@@rakbungwould gimli be the top or the bottom

[@sayanickolay4261]

Calling Faramir an "offbrand Aragorn" is the biggest insult to his character 👎

[@dutchkel]

As a Faramir Stan, 😢

[@FerencDojcsak]

I'm a white hetero dude from Hungary, from a conservative, midly (?) right-wing family, with a Bible-thumping childhood and a lot of hard physical work and other challenges, whose both grandparents fought in WW2 on the Axis side. You get the picture. The reason why I'm telling this is because although in recent years I have shifted away so much from my childhood (including rejecting young-earth creationism and religion, political views, etc.), I found interacting with queer content so very challenging and puzzling. Most of the times you cannot hear anything from the roars of the culture war and you cannot ever be sure who to listen to if you just want to know how people so very different from you think about things. Clearly the conservative or "right-wing" side (I know it's a broad brush) is wrong about so many things and hates LBTQ+ people just for the sake of it. But then, queer people don't really help much to understand either. It's like learning higher mathematics or physics; a professor might be justifiedly annoyed by stupid questions and wrong conclusions of students who think they understand relativity just because they watched a couple youtube videos. But at least with physics, you can learn trigonometry, then derivating and integrating, then Lorenz-transformations, then the proper theory behind relativity. With how queer people think and feel, that's just so much harder. And then I stumbled upon this channel. I honestly did not know what to expect, but I'm a fan of LotR and Tolkien's work since I was 14 and you are talking about queer stuff, so I thought, heck, why the hell not. And so from an "outsider": this is exactly what I was looking for. This video (and the one about Rings of Power) has brought a queer perspective much closer to me than anything I've encountered so far. This is helpful. This is informative and gives a new a perspective (not to mention the interesting research you've done on the Fairy-stories and the production quality) I genuinely thank you. This is probably not the comment anybody is looking for, but I hope my feedback at least proves to be somewhat useful.

[@kdmw]

As a librarian I was surprised to hear that the library had released Tolkien's borrowing history. Confidentiality is one of the core values of the profession - if people are worried about others finding out about what they've been reading, they might not feel comfortable borrowing the books they really want to read. In my province it's the law that public libraries can't share this information, and in the US libraries went to court over the Patriot Act when it would have required them to release people's borrowing history. Anyways, that has very little to do with this excellent video.

[@jadewhite766]

In fairness, Tolkien has been dead for decades and is a significant historical figure. There is a legitimate accademic/public interest in his reading activities.

[@kdmw]

​@@jadewhite766 that's true but it still rubs me the wrong way. I wouldn't want my borrowing history publicized, even after my death, even if I were a public figure. Which is a moot point because none of the libraries I use even save that information once the books have been returned.

[@benegesserwitch]

@@kdmwI’m wondering what would be considered “fair game” in terms of bookmarks/personal artifacts and pre-digital checkout cards? I understand what you’re saying and am very glad of those privacy standards, but it’s only been within the past two decades that the last ~10 borrowers weren’t listed in the inner cover pocket for anyone to see

[@eyesofthecervino3366]

Oh neat! I didn't know that.

[@deejlahh]

ok so: hearing “horse spice” sent me to the grave but “the elf barbara” brought me back to life, tysm 💕🙏✨

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

I love the idea of elves named Debbie + Keith.

[@deejlahh]

@@picahudsoniaunflocked5426 ok YES: i initially read this as “toby + keith” but either way - YES

[@Ollie_Unlikely]

Verity how DARE you insinuate that bit about finding the paper trail back to the Violet Fairy Book was weird and no one would want to watch it, that is exactly MY SHIT Well done with this one, this was super fun ❤

[@r.coachman3499]

IKR? I was like…expecting somethin’ W E I R D weird (even saying that, I dunno what that would be), it was amazing and super in depth research! HECK YEAH!!?

[@FerretinSocks]

i love the acknowledgement of, yes, putting the words as written in their original context while also understanding our modern interpretation is its own context that can be appreciated. love your videos

[@mommiesaurus]

As an old lady Catholic woman myself. When I first read the book. Years before your parents were even dating. I never saw it as sexual. This coming from a women who saw 70s rock bands live. Your are right. If anything was sexual. It was the ring.

[@standardizedshipping]

Since the ring represents sin, it makes sense for it to be depicted as such.

[@bardiboi1517]

Fellas, is it gay to show appreciation and care for your friends and fellow man?

[@JH-lo9ut]

It is a little gay, but that's ok.

[@bardiboi1517]

@@JH-lo9ut It's really not.

[@kl3321]

I don't think you watched the video.

[@deep_cuts2019]

“The girl who pretended to be a boy“ description made me think of Mulan

[@Hypogean7]

No way the story was popular in England by the time Tolkien wrote everything.

[@DawnDavidson]

@@Hypogean7Doesn’t really matter if it was “popular.” Tolkien was a scholar and a researcher of mythology. The trope is one that occurs in mythology all over the world. He didn’t have to be inspired by that particular story (Mulan) for it to have been a theme that he was familiar with. It’s like how there are only so many basic stories in folk songs. Child - of the Child Ballads - literally numbers them, and you can trace the lineage of a ballad and understand its relationship to other ballads as a result. This is similar.

[@Hypogean7]

@@DawnDavidson My point was that the inspiration coming directly from the Ballad of Mulan was a stretch.

[@witchwaist]

​@@Hypogean7your point was unnecessary

[@louisee7339]

As someone who was working at The Story Museum in Oxford in 2017 I'm shocked I didn't hear about what you reveal toward the end of this video at the time! I did get to speak to Priscilla once or twice tho!

[@CassMarlowe-ge4jf]

I love all of your essays on Tolkien so much! Fans often have the urge to downplay how catholic and old-fashioned Tolkien was but that itself is also an interesting point of analysis. It is so telling about the Victorians, modernity and contemporary views on masculinity that Tolkien's male friendships can be read as very gay. I have seen people try to dismiss the queerness of these relationships on that account but I think there is much more ambiguity in these 'romantic friendships' than Tolkien might have noticed himself. Your deep-dive into the Andrew Lang Fairy Books is very fascinating and seems a much more plausible inspiration than Hervör or any other random woman from Old Norse stories. Tolkien also uses Éowyn defeating the Witchking to give his twist on the "no man of woman born shall harm me"-prophecy from Macbeth, so that seems a similar approach to me. Éowyn is much more nuanced than people often make her out to be. Her story might not be one of feminist liberation, but I also don't think that her becoming a healer and tending to a garden is meant to be just a return to a traditional role but her overcoming her desperation and very unhealthy obsession with dying a glorious heroic death. Tolkien loved gardens after all. Faramir is not just off-brand Aragorn but a thoughtful history-nerd character that Tolkien himself heavily identified with, so I don't think he is meant to be a downgrade at all :D

[@anotherKyle]

Imo reducing intimacy between men to the queer context diminishes masculinity as a whole.

[@GreyhawkTheAngry]

^This.

[@caeandstars]

i think people should be able to interpret it however they want as long as they dont view their interpretation as the objective truth 💗 yes, intimacy between men can exist without it being queer, but it being viewed as queer by mostly other queer people (usually as way of connecting with the work more) is by no means a reach and not a bad thing either. yes, two men can be friends, but two men can also be gay.

[@benkle3000]

Honestly it's so refreshing to see how much time and effort you put into researching your topics so as to present as accurately as possible the historical, societal and individual contexts at play that define the original intent behind the work, as well as the reasons why the work can be interpreted so differently as language and contexts have changed over time. So many people I see talking about LOTR (and other works similarly widely read/enjoyed) seem to confuse their interpretation of art as the original intent of the art and can sometimes get very hung up on/defensive about their interpretations being 'the only realistic way to view the work!'. It's important to understand an artist's intent, and it's also important to interpret works through your own lens, especially if it allows you to connect more strongly to that work. The two are not mutually exclusive, and it's great to see more people educating about this.

[@bw7601]

I agree that the polygon article is probably wrong that Tolkien intended anything gay, but it’s broader point was that there is space for queer readings of Frodo and Sam. On the one hand because the faux Red Book translation gives us space to make our own reading of the story as it ‘really happened, and on the other because there is something queer, something radical, about the mere fact of structuring the entire saga around the transcendental love between two men. The unpublished epilogue demonstrates the primacy of their relationship. You touched on this a bit but I think you could have explained/explored it further

[@BlueMagicite]

well now I'm just gonna have to read through all these fairy books and be the equivalent of "Is this a Jojo reference" every time I see something clearly inspiring Tolkien's own writing. Loved this video, it's so wonderful seeing potential inspirations for people's works and seeing how it leads to a tapestry of appreciation for these stories and where they come from!

[@Barborametal]

As a Barbora who was in love with Viggo's Aragorn as a child - thank you 😂

[@theherbman2101]

I had to pause and loudly exhale at “ringussy”

[@lvncee]

1:35 I do want to point out that, from what I remember, Tolkien didn't intend to make it a Christian allegory either, despite being Catholic.

[@ralithcoa8651]

Ursula K. Le Guin mentioned!!!! I love her writing and her ideas about storytelling

[@TearfulMoon]

Transgender prince reminds me of Italian folk tale Fantaghirò - about a cross-dressing princess with rebellious spirit. There was also a tv show in the 90s. Very progressive for its time and I'd say "female-gazy"(it had badass female lead, campy evil witches and hot not-quite-love-interest evil wizard. Oh! And a shape-shifting gender-bending fairy godmother\father\themparent😃). Edit: (to whomever sees this comment) Check out Fantaghirò. It rocks!

[@sawanna508]

I loved that series.

[@janikbuser2604]

Great video, but refering to the Silmarillion with no mention of Fingon and Maedhros in this context is a crime

[@annafdd]

YES!! And Turin and Beleg for that matter.

[@guguludugulu]

I believe "They're not gay! They're hobbits!" Is a quote from Clerks 2

[@davidsachs4883]

Hand holding is very cultural. American soldiers in Vietnam saw men holding hands as they walked down the street and assumed they were gay when often they were brothers or cousins. I’ve no opinion on Frodo’s sexuality, but I’ve always seen Sam as completely straight, considering his attention to his future wife.

[@DOOMsword7]

Yeah, as a fan of both Tolkien and CS Lewis the Lang Colored Fairy Books were a huge inspiration to them both (now which story in which book inspired which scene is of course open to interpretation). There is a huge Academic bias against ‘childlike’ or ‘unserious’ inspiration for literature when the creative process often PRIORITIZES the influences of our childhood. Especially Fantasy stories which are basically just taking childlike wonder and influences and treating them seriously. Fantastic scholarship!! Wonderful video!

[@timetimestime]

I wonder if The Violet Fairy book’s author (or Tolkien) read Ovid- and if the story of Iphis and Ianthe influenced the stories at all. It’s the earliest “woman pretends to be a man and then is magically transformed into a man” story that I know of.

[@peardrop7840]

You are my new favourite person on the internet . Also my entire lgbt group at school used to just meet up to discuss if lotr was gay. Sometimes wed discusss important queer politics, but mostly, it was how all the dwarves had beards including the flintas, and who was shipping who, and that sparkle between legolas and gimley

[@vicc19]

Yeah! They are not gay. But it's a beneficial portrail of men to the queer community regardless. Many of Tolkien's characters are good in that sense. A lot of queer people (and non-queer too) don't fit into gender stereotypes, and many face prejudice because of that. By expanding our views of what a man and a woman is supposed to be and act, the less judgemental we tend to get as a society. I would go as far as to say it also reduces sexism. Men cry, have feelings, cook, take care of others. Women are powerfull beings, logical, inteligent, some prefer swords over ballet, some prefer being gentle and it is not a sign of weekness, etc...

[@crumbsintopebbles]

Honestly, I can see it go either way. I mainly ship them because the romance potential was too much too overlook IMO (the yearning, the tenderness, the textual admissions of love) but I *can* see them as being really good friends who are physically affectionate.

[@rosesinthegard3n]

on the 27th of this month it will be 85 years since tolkien checked out the transgender ass story from the library. personally, im gonna start t to celebrate

[@r.coachman3499]

May your Elixir of Transformation be swift and forever in your grasp~✨🙏

[@jamiegallier2106]

This was brilliant, I appreciate the effort behind producing such a thoroughly researched, thoughtful and entertaining video. Thank you!

[@xebatansis]

None of the characters were gay. Tolkien is dead and no twisting of yours will ever change that.

[@verilybitchie]

i love the idea that this video essay was meant to bring Tolkien back from the dead

[@jackshackanimations9482]

Did you watch the video?

[@dermotfenster9980]

​@@jackshackanimations9482lol of course he didn't, otherwise he would have seen the multiple acknowledgements that Tolkien specifically said they weren't gay 😂 But hey, let's cut him some slack - he HAD to abstain from listening so that our collective queerness wouldn't crawl into his ear and infect his brain with THE GAY 😱

[@Littlebeth5657]

Ringussy has me rollin 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@thomasfleetwood4727]

as a hetro male. I kiss all my homies.

[@bellaberzack2212]

This is probably the most thoroughly researched video essay I have ever watched. This is like dissertation level depth.

[@janosrock]

"they're not gay! they're HOBBITS!" idk why but i can't stop laughin😂

[@estrelinhaNove]

Now it is LGBTH

[@arielvittori8570]

One of your best videos ever, I laughed, I cried, it has the best sponsor. Also it's ridiculous but that 'I am no man' was so formative for 12 year old me in the cinema that even just a repeated clip 20 years later gives me chills, and it's so great to know so much more about all that there is behind it.

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

Wow, that would have blown me away as a little baby-queer feminist at 12! When I saw it in the theatre at 22 I cheered out loud, and decided that I wanted to marry Eowyn even more than I already did, thanks to the books.

[@arielvittori8570]

@@thing_under_the_stairs yeah exactly, it rocked me to my core!!

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

@@arielvittori8570 I mean, it was already one of my favourite parts of the books, because strong, beautiful woman with sword kills monster = awesome, but onscreen it was possibly even more amazing! It's just so powerful. (And also so hot.)

[@claclarolo1]

Ah my favourite characters, Horse Spice and Barbara

[@Dextrositylight]

It's a shame that after near death experiences and long years in each others company, ordinary affection is immediately considered romantic.

[@SaoirseWaddingHayes]

I was told in a Shakespeare class in college that Tolkien was massively influenced by his hatred for Macbeth. Eowyn defeated the Witch King because Tolkien hated that "no man of woman born can kill Macbeth" was resolved with him being killed by a man who was born by caesarian section rather than a woman, which he assumed would be the twist. He also thought it was lame that when Birnam Wood marched on Dunsinane it was just a bunch of soldiers holding branches, so he created the Ents. I just assumed this was true because a wise old professor taught me, but I'm assuming since you didn't mention it there's no actual evidence that this is true?

[@beckyginger3432]

I heard this too! But wysiwyg no source so maybe its a made up?

[@HikariMichi42]

@@beckyginger3432 I think I read it's just a very common theory, that gets repeated so often many people simply assume it's confirmed.

[@vickymc9695]

Got told that by English teacher Eowin goes to battle because Tolkien didn't like the end of Macbeth. So he was the ents walking on the battlefield (the forest walking), and the king slane by a woman instead of the C section cope out. It does track and would be a source he'd read because it's on all UK schools' curriculum.

[@sarahr8311]

It can be both! The girl who pretends to be a boy is a great character to kill Macbeth instead of having some cop out about a C section not being "born".

[@jadewhite766]

When Tolkien was a child the idea of a "National Curriculum" didn't really exist, but the man was an Oxford professor studying linguistics and literature (roughly - strictly speaking he was a Philologist), he would absolutely have a great familiarity with Shakespeare.

[@JohnnyProctor9]

About the war analogy, I'll quote Sir Ian McKellen in the film Gods & Monsters "there may be no atheists in the foxholes, but there are occasionally lovers". That film was based on the true life story of gay WWI veteran, director James Whale...

[@laurenanderson61]

I'd say that is as close to absolute proof as you can get - anyway, that was fascinating

[@TheMRock888]

I've recently become obsessed with your videos, your takes are 100%! I've never been a super fan of this series I did binge all of the movies once, but it wasn't life-changing or anything. I always did wonder about Sam and Frodo being a lil gay, but I concluded that if women can show affection without being called gay then so could men (or in this case male hobbits lol). Btw you are looking extra gorgeous in this vid girlie :)!

[@The_Lauren_Fox_Catalogue]

So, I have a notebook that's intentionally designed to look like the Violet Fairy Book. I bought it to be my editor's notebook for a queer secret agent novel spin-off series I'm developing, and y'know, fairies and violet (to be fair, in the original pulp series, a fairy was their seal). Now I'm very happy to learn there's way more queer context to it with that story.

[@brooksboy78]

I've always thought that the Volsunga saga inspired the One Ring, but your interpretation certainly has merit. Perhaps it's a synthesis of both? Also, I think Eowyn's glorification of war is a flaw because LotR is inherently critical of war. Boromir is a character who also glorifies war, and the text criticizes this through the juxtaposition of Boromir with Faramir (a character who explicitly states that glorifying war for its own sake is bad). In a way, Faramir helping Eowyn get through this poisonous mindset and embrace healing and life instead is the logical conclusion of this theme. War is bad, and glorifying it is pernicious. Eowyn is never lambasted for her achievement. She is given honor and glory for her deeds. Her bravery is not the problem, the problem was just her mindset. She saw war as something good and positive in itself, which is not something that Tolkien agreed with. I get why people find this problematic and sexist, but I think that's because Eowyn is one of the few women in the whole work. If Boromir had been given Eowyn's arc, then obviously the "anti-war" theme would have been a lot more obvious to readers. For me, Eowyn's story is a much clearer arc than what is shown in the film. Eowyn is just a girlboss in the films, and her depression is never explored nor worked through. Her character is made a lot less complex. She glorifies war in the films, but it's never examined or worked through at all.

[@dandelionhood4508]

No way, I actually knew The Girl who Pretended to be a Boy! I read it a couple months ago while researching Albanian mythology and fell down a rabbit hole. And it's been stuck in my head since and nobody I talked with it about it knew it! Needless to say, was very surreal seeing it here, but I'm not complaining

[@kungfubigfoot]

I feel it is important to talk about Authorial intent these days. Xmen and the talk around it always being "woke" people like to point out that it was never Stan Lee's intention to write a Civil rights themed story and though that maybe true. The theme itself resonated with the people of that movment. May that be the Black community or now more pointed to the LGBT+ community. No one can change how a peice of art/media/story made you feel. That is whats important. Like I know hes a touchy subject these days. Mark Hamill said "If you think Luke is gay then hes gay" there is nothing stoppping you from feeling that way. But do recognize that the Author may not have intended it that way. But that is okay.

[@nasafo8292]

i do think it is super important to still hold up the reading of men being able to be very intimate and close and loving one another without it being romantic, though i do like the reading that there is something more between the characters. Among the first steps, i feel, to ending homophobia is to do away with the idea that men cannot be close to one another without it being gay in a romantic or sexual sense. in doing so relationships between men become more tender, more loving and less toxic, thus lessening patriarchy and helping to end the cycles it enforces.

[@kid_at_the_summit]

SO WTF HAPPENED WHEN TOLKIEN WAS 19

[@kreolado5880]

This I want to know the story behind how the 19 year old tolkien discovered the existence of homosexuality lmao

[@karaltar7914]

Experimentation:)