Tolkien F***ed Up First

In 2022, Amazon brought The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power to the small screen, and it was perfect, Jeff Bezos can do no wrong, he is a special angel, if we could only all be more like him. This is a totally uncontroversial video essay which everyone will agree with. Spoiler warning for Rings of Power, LOTR, etc!
Video by Ada Černoša and Verity Ritchie
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[@verilybitchie]

If you enjoyed this video please consider supporting us via patreon where we also have a podcast episode about the Lord of the Rings musical! www.patreon.com/verityritchie

[@mytandasouder4485]

@@fantasywind3923 it probably one of my favorite stories from unfinished tales!

[@andrewlustfield6079]

Rings of Power abjectly failed for so many reasons. Using Galadriel as a main POV was a terrible mistake. There is zero tension in any of her scenes because we all know that she and Celeborn leave for Valinor at the end of Return of the King. Further, the way she was written, she was just another Mary-Sue character who could do no wrong. It wasn't that she had a sword. It was that she wasn't a strong character at all. Ripley from Aliens was a strong character. In Lord of the Rings, Galadriel was a strong character. In this? She was a total Mary Sue. The flirtation with Saurron was enough to make Tolkien roll over in his grave. The isn't he or is he game with who Sauron was seemed juvenile and not worthy of a serious Tolkien adaptation. And the whole nonsense of Gandalf being the stranger---who thought that was a good idea? Whoever edited this should have been fired. A more serious script might have looked a lot more like HBO's Rome, where we focus on minor, unnamed characters as they interact with characters like Galadriel and Elrond and Durin. Just like they used Vorenus and Pullo in Rome, even though their lives were being directly impacted by the likes of Ceasar and Mark Antony, Ciscrio etc. Then we could have had characters who we could place a stake in, we could worry about them--their success and failure would mean something. Did anyone worry when Galadriel was engulfed in the volcanic flash. No. Because we know she is on one of the last ships to Valinor with Celeborn. Arondiel and Ada were the two most interesting characters out of the whole lot of them. We could feel real jeopardy for them. And the proto hobits? Way to go if you like reinforcing every negative stereotype about Irish people. They were not part of the lore and had nothing to do with the forging of the rings of power. Their treatment of the Numinorians wasn't anything like they were in cannon, who were blessed by the Valar and equals of the elves. What we got was the keystone cops. Yes, they became corrupt after a while but not before they imprisoned Sauron and took him back to Numenor. The overall script writing seemed more like Tolkien fan fic with a billion dollar price tag. That's why this flopped and deservedly so. Jackson crafted his Lord of the Rings trilogy with love and reverence for the source materiel. That's why it's one of the best movie trilogies of all time. Rings of Power belongs in the duct-bin of history alongside Witcher Blood Origins. If you don't like Tolkien don't read him. If you want a different kind of fantasy--fine. Write one. More power to you. But don't try to rework his world into your vision of what you think it should have been, leaning on his world building and his creativity and expect it to go very well.

[@rijjhb9467]

Very interesting video, it was way smarter than the average KZbin video. Speaking about races though, I didn't like the Jew erasure. Hollywood is run by Jews, not white men. That's one of their greatest accomplishments, why do you want to take it away from them? Sure, you could say that Jews are white, and fair enough, they can be considered white, but again, this sounds like Jew erasure.

[@andrewlustfield6079]

@@fantasywind3923 The problem with the characters is why I think Rome is a much better model than GOT for writers at Amazon to follow. Sure, we have the named characters and we deal with them. If you want Galadriel to be a military captain--great. Then make our POV character her lieutenant or even a private soldier in her command. Now we can see and feel the impact of her decisions, while we are invested in the character in her command. For the actual forging of the rings, have our POV be an apprentice to Celebrimbor. Or perhaps it could be one of the dwarves--maybe the smith who forges Narsil that is gifted to Elendil. Then use these characters to lean into the lore instead of trying to "fix" it. Arondir has several problems, to be sure. The romance is the biggest one. The human, elf romance belongs to other characters--Beren and Luthien and Aragorn and Arwen, so it was as out of place as the romance between Kili and Tauriel in the Hobbit movies. It just shows how out of ideas they are. That said, he was still probably the most interesting character out of all of them. It's not a high threshold to cross. I am really of the opinion that if you are going to work on an adaptation of an IP, you should be a true fan of that IP.

[@moritzmonska9912]

Gut geslayed digger

[@Jacob-yg7lz]

Galadriel has lived so long that her hair radiates the energy of the trees from which the moon and sun were plucked as fruit, why the hell does the show treat her like a young adult when she's literally one of the oldest creatures on the planet besides the ents and maiar

[@Gontaza]

Círdan: "Am I a joke to you?"

[@paleposter]

It felt like they treated her like a romance novel/Hallmark Christmas movie protagonist. Her role for most of the runtime felt too much like “ice queen who has to defrosted”. We also got a problematic hunky guy to play the opposite part

[@Jacob-yg7lz]

@@Gontaza "One of", not necessarily "the"

[@Gontaza]

@@Jacob-yg7lz I get it and I agree with your point. I would've liked a scene betwen Galadriel and Círdan showing their age, wisdom and foresight. But I don't have high hopes

[@tetrahedron9196]

@@Gontaza You can only write what you know.

[@jacqueshardin4601]

A problem I always had is how synthetic Amazon originals look and feel. I think that style does not work for Lord of the Rings due to how Tolkien really liked the natural world.

[@gothicanimeangel96]

It's super weird because it seems like they were trying to give storybook, but instead we get something that looks like it's trying really hard but ultimately brings to mind game concept art. It does not help the atmosphere that the whole thing is really pedantically written.

[@jarltrippin]

That's something that bothers me with these streaming services in general. They all have a "look."

[@thomaskalbfus2005]

Well its Amazon! Amazons are warrior women!

[@sleepysera]

Ohh, that makes so much sense. I've always wondered why something always felt kind of...off? to me about their historical or fantasy series, visually. Yet I loved the look of their Sci-Fi or IT-related shows. "Synthetic" is a great way to describe it; and for more modern settings that fits the visual tone and style of the show perfectly well, but it kind of clashes with something like this.

[@GnosticAtheist]

Yes, AI has come far, they should probably wait to make that thing rule their scripts. Seriously, a language model would do better even at the current state, compared to Amazons version.

[@BradyRamaker]

One important facet of tolkeins worldbuilding is that the more powerful you are, the more static you are, the more eternal and unchanging. You're more force of nature than person. An immortal elf thats 12,000 years old doesnt have much personal flexibility than the cycle of seasons. This means characters at the top end having PLANS rather than ARCS. That ends up a problem for a story, and its why Tolkein liked to follow smaller folk who were more temporal, it meant they evolved and changed. Galadrial is extremely powerful and so she doesnt have a lot of room to change. Not a good protagonist choice.

[@DreamersOfReality]

Just a little nitpick, but in the source material, doesn't Galadriel change? She resisted the temptation of the ring, "passed" her test, and at long last, decided she would accept fading and returning west?

[@shadenox8164]

@@DreamersOfReality It's more than that, she was explicitly banned from returning until after she had shown herself to have grown enough to return. A Galadriel that has just arrived in Middle Earth would not be the same as the one we see leaving it because then why would the ban be lifted?

[@quali-vd3ud]

they should've looked to characters like superman for writing someone like galadriel

[@fabioviti7384]

​@@quali-vd3udi disagree, superman Is a man before everything else "a nice man Who happens to have super Powers" galadriel is not human, She saw all of human history and she basically saw heavens and gods, She's not human in any capacity

[@agilemind6241]

@@DreamersOfReality Exactly, Galadriel could have been an excellent main character. The main problem with her characterization in the show is (1) failing to make her sufficiently imposing (2) personalizing her motivation. In Tolkien's work, characters are rarely motivated by personal reasons - the Fellowship don't band together to destroy the ring because they have personally be hurt by Sauron - but for the greater good. Those acting for personal greed, or revenge or to save their own skin are generally portrayed as weak and evil characters. Galadriel should have been obsessed with hunting down Sauron because he is a great evil - the right hand of Morgoth, and only one as powerful as she could stop him. Not because her brother was killed in a war... Her character arcs then become one where she hunts for Sauron arrogantly believing she is powerful enough to take him single-handly (or with a small number of men). But fails and instead tracks down a Balrog that is gathering some of the remains of Morgoth's army because that is what she believes Sauron would be doing, and doesn't consider that Sauron might use subterfuge/trickery or could look like a regular person. She fight it but cannot kill it and instead seals it below Moria. This causes her to realize she needs more power in order to defeat Sauron, so she recruits Celebrimor to make the rings of power. They could even still have her recruit the disguised Sauron to help make them. She also suggests making some for the Dwarvish king(s) so they can defeat the Balrog below Moria - and/or other Balrogs that may be sheltering in their mines. Meanwhile disguised Sauron argues that it is only fair to also make rings for the human kings if they are making them for elves and dwarves. Most of the rest of the season can be the same, still with Aldar and his orcs trying to erupt mount doom, Galadriel finding them and fighting them. The only other change you'd need is to make Numenor send their army to the main land because of the queen's visions of Numenor being destroyed - i.e. to create a colony on the main land where the Numenorians can flee to or that will survive and preserve the Numenorian culture should Numenor be destroyed - though they could still have the queen use the pretext of fighting Sauron to justify it to the people. But this time without Galadriel showing up there, just make Numenor a secondary plot like the village in the east is or the harfoots are.

[@johannao4849]

Making the elf guys short haired was a crime.

[@theriverspath]

Hard agree.

[@uprisingsun9105]

Absolutely. Elves need the long hair.

[@annabeatrizzimmermann7708]

fr ir was

[@amrys_argent]

Every time I see this version of Elrond, I keep wanting to tell him to give Kurt Russell his hair back.

[@samaraisnt]

unfeminizing our elves=hate crime prove me wrong.

[@himesilva]

I like how you pointed out that despite Galadriel in ROP being an OP warrior woman with swords and swirly armour, she doesn't have the _commanding, intimidating presence_ that Cate Blanchett brought to the role. All the LOTR Galadriel does is float around all pretty-like and yet she comes across much more badass imo

[@theriverspath]

This. It's not even just about physical stature, either. The other elves treat her like a child. She comes off as petulant because her peers alternate gas lighting her, indulging her, or placating her.

[@Icetea-2000]

@@theriverspath the writers also seem to not acknowledge that she’s been alive for THOUSANDS of years already. Like Elrond is also eons old, and he looks like a child. Btw, he goes to looking like 2001 Hugo Weaving in 100 years, and then stays the same for the next 3000 years They were like "uhhh they’re younger…. sooo they have to look younger right? What do you mean they’re immortal? I don’t get it"

[@azentra7560]

​@@Icetea-2000 let's also not forget that on top of the physical transformation that Elrond undergoes in those 100 years, he goes from super smooth talking politician to ultimate warlord/general commanding the entire elven army and fighting on the front lines during the battle of the last alliance in that same timespan.

[@Icetea-2000]

@@azentra7560 Yeah true, their political position as well, both Galadriel and Elrond seem like subordinates when really they were some of the highest ranking elves in existence even back then Also Gilgalad looks too much like a normal dude. He doesn’t look at all like the last legendary king of the Noldor

[@Hiraghm]

The Superman effect. Look at Christopher Reeve's Superman. He no longer leaps into the air, but calmly.. lifts... off. He's not loud, he's not given to flashes of emotion. When he does go off, it's all that much scarier. Superman comes off as powerful because of the confidence he emanates. He doesn't have to get excited or express extremes of emotion, because he knows with absolutely certainty, at the end of the day, he's got this. He's capable of handling whatever happens. Galadriel gave off that same vibe in LotR.

[@thesailorcat3334]

“He basically just didn’t like technology. Or, loud noises.” Same, Tolkien. Same.

[@pallydan893]

The Beatles move in down the hall Tolkien: ORCS!

[@BlackLotus30]

you would too after experiencing a WW.

[@hannibalburgers477]

Literally me. I also like Goth chicks

[@nickmilo932]

There's plenty of tribes that live distanced from society, noise and technology. One of them would probably let you join them.

[@connorscanlan2167]

​@@nickmilo932 Well, Tolkien tells us Hobbits love small, wholesome machines, things like looms and the like. And they certainly love their coffee and cakes and getting breakfast multiple times a day. I'm sure they'd appreciate clean drinking water and convenient human waste disposal.

[@blueharmony3675]

The mistake Amazon made was thinking that Galadriel wasn't already a warrior. Galadriel doesn't need to wield a sword to be a warrior because she already possesses the most powerful weapon of all: wisdom. She is respected and feared, and considered one of the most powerful beings in all of Arda because of her intelligence, wisdom, will, and authority.

[@annarita333]

Even Finrod´s own fight with Sauron and his defeat (where Galadriel in the series gets her whole motivation for everything) is described as a battle fought with "Songs of Power". A lot of the Feanorians and other members of the house of Finwe had this "Power" and used it. So to portray Elves as purely physical beings is just short shighted and goes against their very nature

[@AdamWhistle1]

@@annarita333 It makes writing for visual medium better however, because once you introduce magic how do you stop it from being the obvious solution to every problem? You have to establish enough for the audience to know whether magic is a solution or not to most problems (otherwise you get the wiseass "but why didn't they just ride the eagles to the vulcano?" remarks). It is not an incorrigible problem but having Galadriel a warrior (which makes sense for her) simplifies that problem immensely, especially when you are balancing several plotlines and every minute of airtime has something insane like a six-minute cost to what is already the most expensive TV show in history.

[@wrestlinganime4life288]

Basically they turned her into Yoda during the prequel.

[@KevinJohnson-cv2no]

"The most powerful weapon of all: wisdom" So if I lobbed a mace through your skull, would wisdom project some sort of shield to protect you?

[@nikoguarro]

​@@KevinJohnson-cv2no so, Galadriel will probably already have infiltrated into your mind (as she does when she speaks to Frodo) and probably show you a vision so traumatizing that you probably don't remember how to wield a maze in the first place lol

[@kittencadaver2744]

Blanchett felt tall because of the camera angles and the costume design. The curls in her hair, the way it hangs over her shoulder and matches the draped and wavy fabric of the dress creates a long silhouette that could've very easily been done with ROP too

[@yay-cat]

Yeah like Ian Mckellin is taller than Eliga Wood but some garden variety Hollywood trickery made Gandalf appear double the hobbit’s height

[@MsHermyGranger]

She has a Dramatic body type (by Kibbe). She has long vertical features and they also make her seem taller than she is

[@kittencadaver2744]

@@MsHermyGranger she also wore white gogo boots to help as well!

[@user-qj9en1kp1m]

In the Amazon tv-show 90% of the time whem "Galadriel" was on screen I had the urge to offer her a hairbrush.

[@Reiknar]

@@yay-cat "Garden variety Hollywood trickery" 🤣 What nonsense. Calling it garden variety implies that it is simple, and easy to pull off, to make it work right. It's not, and the way Peter Jackson, his crew and the actors handled it was masterclass.

[@lilithblack6060]

I never imagined a production where Galadriel would be insufferable. No shade to the actor who was doing her job as directed, the infantilization was over the top, she's not 16, she's supposed to be old enough to be plenty competent and measured.

[@ashtonpalmer5035]

She is well over a few thousand years old and not far from being one of the oldest characters in the series. A powerful and wise ruler who is as far from young and reckless as one can get. The giving her a sword was silly not becuase she could not wield one competently but in comparison to her other powers and abilities it is near useless, as nearly the only person in middle earth that could hold her own against Souron and having imense political power why would she ever enter hand to hand combat. It is the equivalent of a modern president or prime minister deciding to join battle themselves and restrict themselves to a bayonet.

[@swimmingmide]

She is older than the actual sun in the canon story if my memory is correct. The trees were older than her, but the sun was created after Feanor became a Kinkiller and cursed the middle earth elves.

[@Nerobyrne]

I thought it wasn't as bad as most people, because to her, humans would be essentially mayflies the size of elves with one foot behind Sauron. Makes sense she'd treat them like trash.

[@swimmingmide]

@@Nerobyrne She was a high born elven princess raised in an elven court and directly related to the high king of the elves. She was a diplomat and raised to host people in her father's halls and eventually her own forest. She would have had courtisy and respect for others drilled into her from a very young age. She should have behaved like she did in the books and movies. Where is her husband? They were together for the entire Silmarillion.

[@Nerobyrne]

@@swimmingmide have you ever met a politician?

[@Symaethis]

The thing that upset me most about the Amazon show was that elves didn't have long hair and dwarf women didn't have beards. WHY????

[@orangutangarama9870]

Because the studio couldn't market a bearded woman. But they knew fans would complain so they made her black so anyone who did complain could just be called racist

[@ecthelionofthefountain8267]

They couldn't afford wigs for the Elves because they spent all the money on crappy CGI.

[@verdurite]

@@orangutangarama9870 This is a stupid take, if they knew people would complain about the race they'd have gone through with the bearded woman thing anyways by that same logic

[@18laxX]

@@orangutangarama9870 bearded dwarf women sounds pretty marketable to me. That’d be an eye-catcher on an advertisement no doubt.

[@PabloMejía-k7f]

Because no one in the production read the books

[@emfgull]

Thank you for pointing out the ways that enforcing "boys have short hair and women have long hair", doing away with female dwarves having beards, and portraying Galadriel as even more diminutive is a cowardly interpretation of gender in Tolkien. It's also validating to hear why short hair doesn't actually make sense for most of these characters. I tried to be open minded but it always felt so wildly incongruous.

[@Flozone1]

It is also pretty insulting if you brand yourself as showing diversity and so on, but shy away from actually showing more divergent gender norms. Gay characters okay, but bearded women is were it ends!!!

[@dzonbrodi514]

Yeah FR a lot of those haircuts are really modern and carefully tended, it's really jarring visually

[@TheBananamonger]

But they put black people in so you shouldnt be noticing the flaws! You should just be praising the existence of black people and the show runners should be praised for letting black people into LotR, a property no black person was allowed to like before 2022

[@IMayOrMayHaveNot]

People who wrote this show were too obsessed with gender roles to realize how insulting these decisions would be. They literally overwrote the cultural traits Tolkien created just because it didn't fit their narrow perception of feminine/masculine. High-key petty and self-centered atittude. It's like taking a black person's coily hair and go "Your hair is wrong, where *I* come from straight hair is what's considered good-looking, so we'll straighten yours".

[@jackrutledgegoembel5896]

it ALWAYS disappoints me when corporate committee-led "diverse" casting is chosen to reflect the demographics of the modern USA in some fantasy universe instead of working with, and expanding on, the already-existent diversity and nonconformity in a text. Like, they had such an opportunity to really play with the way gender presentation works in this universe, but instead they just had to make everyone seem "normal" albeit "diverse" in the most generic sense.

[@RanVor]

"They want us to ship Galadriel and Sauron." You know, at this point I think they should just double down on this and have Galadriel redeem Sauron through the Power of Love and avert the entire plot of LotR. At least it would be funny.

[@Thesakuraharona]

That would be amusing. Too bad Hollywood and big companies have no creativity or humor left. They just churn out products to milk cash cows.

[@Skycroft1000]

I think a really interesting thing to examine when it comes to Tolkein's thoughts on race is the Kin-Strife. The Kin-Strife is a bit of Gondorian history that takes place about 1500 years before the start of LoTR. The King of Gondor marries a Rhovanion woman and his only son, Eldacar, is mixed race. When he dies there is a massive civil war and Eldacar's throne is usurped and he is forced from the capital for decades. What's interesting about this is that the rebels, who are essentially blood purists who hate the idea of the royal house of Gondor being mingled with the blood of "lesser Men", are very clearly depicted as the bad guys. The Kin-Strife tears Gondor apart and greatly accelerates its decline. The Capital Osgiliath is half-destroyed and its Palantir is lost. The usurper Castamir is a tyrant, remembered as the worst ruler in Gondorian history. And, most notably, they are shown to be _wrong._ Eldacar eventually retakes the throne, and for the next six hundred years the kings of Gondor are mixed race and not pure Numenorean, all the way up until the royal line dies out entirely. Indeed not just the royal house but also Gondor's noble houses all are said to marry non Numenoreans a lot more frequently after the Kin-Strife (partly because so many of them died in the civil war that they had to just to repopulate). And the decline of the Numenoreans, the slow waning of their lifespans as the centuries pass, _is not notably affected in any way._ Interbreeding with "lesser Men" has nothing to do with the decline of the Numenoreans because that decline was never about genetics or heridity or anything like that, but was rather a divine blessing that had been withdrawn. There's certainly still a lot of uncomfortable racial undertones in Tolkein's writing, but I think this bit of in-universe history is a really illuminating of the way he himself struggled with those implications.

[@brooksboy78]

Yes! That's such a good point. I don't think it negates some of the racist undertones, but it certainly provides a much more nuanced picture.

[@rafexrafexowski4754]

What I also find interesting is that the Haradrim, the black-skinned people, only become "evil" after white guys from Numenor started ruling over them. They were called the Black (i.e. evil) Numenoreans. And after the destruction of the ring the Haradrim almost instantly join Aragorn's side, showing that they have been oppressed by Sauron into serving him.

[@totraspook]

​@@rafexrafexowski4754 Do the Haradrim join Aragorn immediately? I remember some fleeing, some fighting because though 'evil' they are 'proud' (something like that), and some capitulating.

[@davidtaylor142]

Tolkien is a great example of a "man of his time" in the correct usage of the term. He was pretty socially progressive for his time, he just also grew up with fucked up race science ideas from his society. Another example is Robert Jordan and his feminism. Super dated by today's standards but really progressive for the time

[@Tounushi]

There is a metaphysical element to bloodlines in Tolkien's world, but it isn't as straightforward or superficial as simple bloodline purity. I'm almost willing to wager the purest Numenorean bloodlines on Middle Earth outside of the Arnorian royal house were whatever Black Numenorean ruling class was in power in Umbar. Additionally, I wouldn't be surprised if a few of them start sporting Habsburg jaws. And they'd still see their longevity wane generation after generation at perhaps even greater rates than Gondorians, leading to further desperation to "top off" their übermensch characteristics through Sauron's crafts. Even Elrond and Elros were both 1/16 Maia, 9/16 elf and 6/16 edain, with one choosing to be an elf and the other a human, so if we'd go with strict materialist genetics, both should have immortality or both should have long but finite mortal lifespans. But Tolkien's world is not fully materialistic and their choice of "race" was metaphysical. Elros gave up life at around his 500s and later kings of Numenor desperately struggled to live half as long with their bodies and minds wracked by the ravages of advanced age. Aragorn dozens of generations later passed at 210 voluntarily and still with healthy mind and body.

[@PrettyGuardian]

The idea of a 6'4" Man-Maiden is the Galadriel of my dreams and all the depictions I've seen so far have left me wanting.

[@QLIES]

Yeah. But if it helps, I got to say Cate Blanchett without make-up is one of the most handsome women I've ever seen in IRL.

[@alalalala57]

​@@QLIES A true man-maiden, especially with that voice.

[@PrettyGuardian]

@@alalalala57 Cate Blanchett is a wonderful actress who has an ethereal beauty and brought a lot of life to the role. Calling her a "man-maiden" is more than a stretch for me though. Plus I'm not a fan of certain effects PJ went with for the elves such as the backlighting which seemed like a community theater level effect at best.

[@kitkakitteh]

Man-maiden? Wtf?

[@lexa2310]

Is a man-maiden a woman that is considered more "masculine" than normal?

[@GreyhawkTheAngry]

“He basically just didn’t like technology. Or, loud noises.” The man fought in one of the *World* *Wars.* Can you *fucking* _blame_ him?

[@leogolive]

As a black man I’ve always enjoyed the LOTR. Just because I didn’t see black people in it didn’t stop me from enjoying the stories and characters. It’s all fiction anyway! Tolkien was a white man who wrote a story from the perspective of white men to appeal to white people. I don’t care, because I don’t need to be part of the white world. I could care less. I want to see somebody black do the same thing he did and create a story from our perspective. That’s far more appealing than just throwing in some token black people for diversity’s sake.

[@foofieviolet]

Seriously would love to see some epic African fantasy series based on African languages, cultures, history, and legends. I mean Black Panther proved beyond a doubt that there is a market for it, it's what the people want!

[@rafiki4444]

You’re missing the point. Consider rewatching. Some people are just not as good at listening comprehension, because they’re not descendant from an ancient king who heard the song of Gods and traveled West.

[@regularshowman3208]

@@foofieviolet It's only two books and I only read the first one, but Raybearer is really fuckin good. It's YA, but it's honestly really awesome and handles its worldbuilding in a way that feels extremely natural.

[@wareforcoin5780]

This is me for female characters as a woman. I'm perfectly happy with an all dude cast. I watch RuPaul's Drag Race, I'm _expecting_ to watch all men sometimes. I get irritated when people say something just "needs more women." Like, no, the quantity of women present in the cast will not inherently improve something. I've never found a female character that I relate more to than I would if that character was male. I don't need to be reflected in every piece of art.

[@emilwandel]

​@@wareforcoin5780if women are only portraited as objects to own or to serve men it really feels like the world is flat and colorless because half of the perspective of the world is missing. This would be different if women would just not exist in the world like black or asian people or a world were human can populate with only one gender.

[@Notsogoodguitarguy]

Also, the thing about Galadriel's husband is pretty fucked up if you think about it. She mentions him in brief passing. But, she even says she doesn't know if her husband is dead or missing or whatever. And...I mean, what? Your husband might be alive and you're not going through hell itself to look for him, but your dead brother, that tips you over the edge? And you go off to avenge your brother instead of look for your husband? That throwaway scene actually does a lot of harm to her character. A lot. But, I mean, it's Rings of Power. Expectations aren't very high.

[@verindictus3639]

It gets worse if you realize that since all elves who die in Middle-Earth go to the halls of Mandos, which is in Valinor, and Galadriel would know this. And so, when she refused to go to Valinor, she was refusing a chance to be reunited with her brother in person.

[@Notsogoodguitarguy]

@@verindictus3639 I dunno about that. I'm going purely off of the movie. But then, yeah, you're right. If this exists in their universe, then it's even worse.

[@tavoreparan8091]

My speculation is that her husband poofed *during* her hunt for Sauron, so she would've been faced with a choice of continuing her current obsession or getting distracted into what might very well be a false rumor. It's still a slap in the face to give him no consideration except a literal passing mention, but one way to read the scene is that she's realizing that it may have been a mistake to dismiss Celeborn's absence as a non-problem. (Of course, the problem with *that* reading is that it was never set up properly, so that wasn't a payoff, but structurally incoherent writing is kinda Rings of Power's whole thing.)

[@ptlemon1101]

It get evens worse when you know that in Middle-Earth, when elves marry, their souls literally become connected with each other

[@Laurelin70]

@@ptlemon1101 Yes, but it's said that husband and wife CAN live separately for years, just because they have different interests.

[@tatjanakaiser5402]

The „It‘s all terribly American“ had me laughting so hard. It sums it up perfectly

[@andresacosta4832]

I didn't really get it because I've been exposed to that kind of story before, but I think I'm starting to...?

[@thelastonetofall108]

I was about to comment exctly that.

[@ncpolley]

I'm not entirely sure it's "American" but it is an American movie trope.

[@Blue74]

The hair was the first thing I noticed too. They made everything way more gendered, mind blowingly, you'd think it'd be the opposite.

[@Oxaphosphetane]

The hairstyles really are jarring, aren't they? And if they were trying to match the aesthetics of the Peter Jackson films, how did they miss that the main male characters in the films have long hair? Even the hobbits, who arguably have short hair, have longer hair than the guys in the series, haha.

[@hurktang]

The virtue signaling bunch is often the most racists. They claim they are better, they are often worst.

[@aino-kaisav5504]

Honestly, I haven't many complaints about the character designs. But those short-haired elves......

[@hllyenaylleth9576]

Not sure why that would surprise you, that's how they operate.

[@Alalea17]

I think its just to push that sex is binary agenda :I

[@MsHellokitty666]

Tolkien would've hated Amazon, and so should all of you.

[@PhilHibbs]

I think I bought maybe three things from Amazon over ten years ago.

[@bkolumban]

No he wouldn't; he would be a stupid rich white guy with problematic (read super racist) ideas and hating everyone for pointing that out.

[@shadenox8164]

He also according to his son would have hated the lord of the ring movies, just as an fyi.

[@TheNightman.]

@@shadenox8164 He would've accepted it as a decent attempt to tell the story, staying true and honest to the story. He would've fucking despised Amazon's Rangs of Powah

[@sicknessnfilth1616]

Oh I hate Amazon for this atrocity.

[@SaintPandemonium]

"Half the male elves make me feel like I'm getting Rick-Rolled" the soprano SCREAM I just let out, LMAO!!!

[@notbenh]

Really like how in-depth this dive went and yet still maintained the nuance of time and how people can grow.

[@daniellehalen3479]

This video has only made me realize we were ROBBED of having Gwendolyn Christie play Galadriel. ROBBED!!!!

[@invisible__design657]

yes!!

[@allisonmillions3863]

Thank you!

[@ggt47]

She actually probably be an accurate height. 😂She would also been a good Marvel comic book accurate Valkyrie.

[@annakuch9108]

Oh yes we were. CAN U IMAGINE OMG

[@michaelsasylum]

Gwedolyn Christie is extremely overrated. GoT is her flash in the pan and she's going nowhere.

[@i_will_not_elaborate]

Me: the elves having modern hairstyles reminds me of movies based in the dark ages/fantasy worlds during the 1980s but all the characters look like motley crue. This video: I feel like I'm going to get Rick-rolled at any moment. Me: By the Gods!

[@nathanielallanschweitzer9986]

I think if we're going to include diversity in this work, then it would serve Tolkien's work and its betterment to explore the regions he never got to fully develop. Harad, Rhûn, and Khand have interested me in the last few years as the spots where POC heroes should come from, and the lack of their lore allows us to fill in the gaps without sacrificing consistency. Tolkien wrote of the Haradrim being controlled by Numenor just before it fell. He wrote about black subjugation under under white colonialism. This story does not need colorblind casting when you have regions full of nonwhite people. They could have given us Haradrim heroes fighting against the tyranny of Numenor under Ar Pharazon only to join with Elendil and the elves in the battle of the last alliance. They could have had the blue wizards played by Asian and Middle-Eastern actors go into Rhûn and find their own hero of a thousand faces to face the darkness in that land. We could have had dark skinned Avari elves with an unheard of culture living under the sun rather than trees and caves, or shown any of the other four tribes of the dwarves. We don't need colorblind casting in a mythos that is big enough to include everyone although the obstacle of geography must be included in the setting....except maybe for the Valar and Maiar who could literally look like anything whenever they wanted. Tolkien's Ainur would be perfect for a colorblind cast.

[@CaptainPieBeard]

Exactly! You can have a diverse cast and still respect the rules of the fantasy world that were laid down by the original author. Tolkien didn't have colored elves for the same reason that the real world doesn't have colored Swedes. (Setting aside immigration) A group of Avari, with dark features and skin would be a brilliant extension of Tolkien's work while still being true to the original rules and vision. Or, as you pointed out, just create a character from a land that is populated by different races! How did they mess this up so horribly?

[@RoseBaggins]

^^^ This, a thousand times!! They could even go so far as to create their own languages! It would have been awesome to see other countries in Middle Earth! Everyone is complaining about the fact that there are more people in the world than just Europe ... and then head straight to European stories to adapt and cast non-Europeans in the roles, thinking that will do the trick.

[@escribendo6138]

@@CaptainPieBeard I am really not convonced by this. Sure, you can make up societies segregated from the lands the story of our heroes to draw Characters of Color from, but that's relegates them either to outsiders or forces the story into places many people just don't care about as much when consuming LotR media. I for my part would much prefer a story about for example another dwarf culture aside from the longbeards in possibly faraway lands to many recent tolkien adaptions, but in general this kind of thing is not why you get film rights to a property, because, by it's nature, it is secluded from the things people know and love about the property. Maybe such a thing will become more commonplace once tolkiens works enter public domain... one can only dream Anyways, my point is that I don't think it is conducive to good representation to worry about why someone is the race they are as if being nonwhite is something that demands an explanation. I think the only reason we think so is a kneejerk reaction. Firstly, even if we were to concede that a black noldorin elf or whatever were uncanonical, I couldn't care less. I don't think there are any themes this undercuts, and if it did I would not miss them, and I do not see why I should suspend my disbelief for magical jewels but not for skin color. But most importantly, I don't concede that. I think, maybe because we in our thinking are modeling societies as a number of exeptional people we know explicitly about and the rest, that makes it easy to abstract the rest so far from a real group of people that it sort of inadvertently becomes imagined as homogenous, but I don't see a good reason any fantastical society not explicitly stated to be so has to be strictly ethnically homogenous. So why should there not be to stay at the example be a black noldorin elf? Even if there isn't an explicit example of one in the canon (is there? maybe, my Tolkien nerd credentials aren't good enough to confidently assert that), as long as there isn't stated that there are none, I don't think that is uncanonical (and again, if it were, I wouldn't care if this did not for some reason inherently makes the story worse)

[@CaptainPieBeard]

@@escribendo6138 Here's an idea. Instead of trying to "fix" a beautifully written work that is almost 100 years old. How about modern creators just make up their own worlds and stories? Make up your own worlds and rules and then you can have as much geography-defying-diversity as you'd like. For a society that is so obsessed with pointing out the moral shortcomings of "old white men", said society sure loves the works of "old white men". If you find Tolkien's views to be antiquated then perhaps a more modern work, that more accurately reflects current trends and cultural make-up, is the type of media you should be consuming.

[@escribendo6138]

@@eliteteamkiller319 I actually care about the lore quite a bit, but skin color isn't really a big part of Tolkien's lore, largely unspecified and assumed to be white, and for the most part trivial where it comes up. That's why I find it hilarious to se people throwing hissyfits about it when, as you say, big parts about the lore are largely overwritten, as you pointed out yourself, to the point that events playing thousands of years apart are condensed into the shows time span. Do I care about that? Certainly, but in my mind it cannot be the only aspect of the show to consider. Because an adaption has to do more than merely accurately reflect the source material, and this it doesn't even have to do. If we were to look at adaptions only through this lense, they would be inherently obsolete, just a retelling of an existing story that doesn't dare to deviate an inch to create something new, and potentially good. If it (and I really hope it refers to sweeping rearrangements of large parts of the legendarium more than to the pigmentation of certain actors that might or might not vary from how their characters, nay, their people in the general case because we aren't even talking about existing characters here, are described by Tolkien, and if not, why?) bothers you so much, try thinking of it as a work disconnected from LotR with some curious similarities. It helped me enjoy it a bit more...

[@MRdaBakkle]

You briefly mentioned how Nori just wanted to know what life was like outside of her Hobbit caravan. But she really should know how far the river goes or where the sparrows go. Her people travel for a living. They are not sedentary, but are constantly moving from one place to another. She isn't unused to travel.

[@miffedmax3863]

I thought the Harfoot were walking a specific path, though?

[@MRdaBakkle]

@@miffedmax3863 even if that's true and their path is the same year from year. The point stands that these proto hobbits are more mobile and world wise than the Hobbits of the Shire.

[@miffedmax3863]

@MRdaBakkle Fair enough.

[@viiviviviiv]

i feel like she emphasized the "nomadic" elements of the group in the vid, the strangeness of her desire to see the world WHILE being a nomad was clear to me... fwiw i haven't watched the new series at all, and that seemed to be the point of that to me.

[@gee159]

I think the line “she finds the Nomadic life of her Nomadic people boring so she wants to go… travelling?” makes this point in the video

[@BattyButtercup]

I remain FURIOUS at the Injustices Amazon has done unto Celebrian: they broke up her happily-wed power couple parents, erased her own existence, aged her husband up to look older than his own mother-in-law... and continued the live-action trend of UN-yassifying Elrond. ELROND! GRANDSON OF LUTHIEN! FATHER OF ARWEN! Left a short-haired, visibly middle-aged dude. smh at this constant Disrespect to Celebrian, honestly. the only other live-action Tolkien characters who have been as Aggregriously Wronged by the Un-Yassifying of Tolkien characters is... the entirety of Middle-Earth, by way of PJ's LOTR rendering Gimli as anything except THE Most Eligible Bachelor of the Third Age. u_u JUSTICE FOR CELEBRIAN! JUSTICE FOR EREBOR! JUSTICE FOR LEGOLAS!

[@lewisirwin5363]

Dunno about Middle-aged, if anything he looks too Tom Holland for me here

[@beckmannm]

Gimli the most eligible bachelor is RIGHT!!!

[@annamelvina216]

I haven't watched the show, but Elrond is fairly young compared to a lot of elves. It probably would have been better if he wasn't in ROP at all.

[@uncletomalex]

@@lewisirwin5363 I think the person who responded mixed Elrond and Celebrimbor depiction on the show

[@joebloe4734]

Can I ask what you mean by the un-yassification of Elrond?

[@andrewdestefano4143]

When they started talking about Amazon being able to bridge the gap between media and retail eliminating their competitors I literally said to myself "and in darkness bind them"

[@duncancameron6342]

"and in the warehouse bind them"

[@finngswan3732]

I hadn't seen anything of the show until now and my brain SHORT-CIRCUITED at the sight of Elf Boy With Short Hair. Like ??? My LOTR brain cells imploded, I swear.

[@bewilderbeastie8899]

We don't know that all elves had long hair... but every description of elf hair we have is long

[@Tar-Elenion]

@@bewilderbeastie8899 Tolkien described the Noldor as having long hair. "Finwë (and Míriel) had long dark hair, so had Fëanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage which did not often take place between clans, except among the chieftains, and then only after settlement in Aman." NoMe, Hair And the Teleri: "But most it was their wont to sail in their swift ships upon the waters of the Bay of Elvenhome, or to walk in the waves upon the shore with their long hair gleaming like foam in the light beyond the hill." MR, LQS and Elves generally: ""There blowing free unbraided hair is meshed with beams of Moon and Sun, And twined within those tresses fair a gold and silver sheen is spun, As fleet and white the feet go bare, and lissom limbs in dances run," Lost Road, FNII And the Silvan Elves: "Their gleaming hair was twined with flowers; green and white gems glinted on their collars and their belts; and their faces and their songs were filled with mirth. Loud and clear and fair were those songs, and out stepped Thorin into their midst." The Hobbit, Flies and Spiders "In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes...." WotJ, Quendi and Eldar Of course the Sindar and Silvan Elves are ultimately Telerin in origin. While the Elves all had beautiful hair, and it being long seem to be equated with that beauty: "All the Eldar had beautiful hair (and were especially attracted by hair of exceptional loveliness), but the Noldor were not specially remarkable in this respect, and there is no reference to Finwe as having had hair of exceptional length, abundance, or beauty beyond the measure of his people." PoMe, Shibboleth of Feanor"

[@prodeo3570]

Tolkien’s reply to German publishers of the Hobbit who had asked if he was purely Aryan: “I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-iranian... But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.”

[@nyatrue401]

What a badass

[@TigerPrawn_]

I always find it funny that we use the word Aryan to me white, when Indo-Iranians are…not particularly white

[@aesop1451]

Aryan=Indo-European. “The Indo-European language family is native to most of Europe, the Iranian plateau, and the northern Indian subcontinent.” So yes, he was an Aryan. If Tolkien was alive maybe someone would inform him of Magnus Hirschfeld, Leslie Feinberg, Harvey Milk, and Abby Stein, and he wouldn’t have made such a smartass remark.

[@ImminentAl]

The most lore accurate adaptation is clearly shadow of war. Sexy Shelob was clearly what Tolkien had in mind

[@koboldcatgirl]

You have to admit, her and Galadriel being exes does explain her antipathy to the light. No other possible explanation.

[@kenobents2741]

This gives me flashbacks of the sexy shelob greentext

[@renaigh]

I mean those games are single handedly responsible for making the Orcs actually interesting.

[@brooksboy78]

@@renaigh Do they, though? They're pretty boring there, too.

[@alalalala57]

​@@brooksboy78 No? That was the whole highlight of the games. Orcs are fun in those.

[@LizbetNene]

Thank you for validating my strong instinct that elves with short hair are a hate crime.

[@sportenapfeltorten2095]

lol :o)

[@moonmun]

Ah man... We lost our tall Galadriel for a ship!? And we also lost the long haired Elven men and bearded female Dwarves?! T:

[@AdamWhistle1]

An important note about the orcs: a MAJOR reason why they're "all evil" is that they are effectively enslaved by Sauron. The orcs caused consternation for Tolkien himself (particularly about how they cannot reach salvation and he kept changing his mind about their origin), but Sauron specifically has the power to bend the will of others to his will AND it is heavily implied that the orcs are tortured and deceived about their condition. Even in the LOTR dialog, they talk of "elvish tricks" and whatnot (maybe even in Hobbit), implying that they are subject to a propaganda that dehumanizes their opponents as well. A tactic that his son would have seen in WW2 (fascism particularly embraces this tactic, just look at Russian propaganda) and maybe even himself in WW1, if not seen throughout history. This does not necessarily excuse Tolkien's problems and of course if you dig deep enough in Tolkien's writing, you can leave with whatever interpretation you want. Also definitely doesn't excuse Amazon's problems, they don't have Tolkien's excuses.

[@equinox1223]

They aren't enslaved by Sauron, they were originally corrupted men and elves who served Morgoth with literal respect and utmost care...idk why I'm having to describe this weird relationship but your comment is more of a ponderance on your own thought then what actually does occur. As for breeding, no one can say where they come from (but they do appear to grow in wombs in the earth). Morgoth didn't even have to kidnap people, he literally just used the same creation "song" as the LOTR universe creator but corrupted said song - and if I recall right said orcs were kinda just "made" with the same intonation as how men and mer were but their creation was changed due to Morgoth changing up the "song.").

[@hozie6795]

@@equinox1223 Tolkien went back and forth on the origin of Orcs numerous times, and the notion that they are corrupted elves is highly contested.

[@mickwayne3398]

@@equinox1223 when the ring is tossed in the volcano it said in the story that the Orcs were no longer under Saurons controllnig will and became confused and easily beaten back by the alliance army

[@SuddenReal]

Propaganda to dehumanize and ridicule the enemy has been around for a long long time. Remember, Napoleon was a large man. The only reason why people think he was short was because British cartoons depicted him as small since they didn't realise a French foot was larger than a British foot.

[@equinox1223]

@@mickwayne3398 yeah, because Morgoth had weaved a song creating his own variants on elves and men, he didn't enslave them, they were pretty much a "hive mind" of sorts. Although only Tolkien himself knows the truth, but he never fleshed any of that out enough for anyone to make a true call. Orc culture was a lot more violent and animalistic too with those at the top who looked weak having their authority challenged, which isn't to say they all didn't have their own cultures of sorts, but it was a lot more base.

[@emptilion]

Jesus, you just opened my eyes. Gwendoline Christie as Galadriel would have already improved rings of power so much for me.

[@celiwhaaat6285]

Yes I had the same epiphany 😅

[@neuralmute]

Me too! She may have seen it as a bit of typecasting (another armour role?!?) but she'd have been magnificent.

[@morgenzon69]

To be fair, Gwen Christie in any show instantly makes it 100x better

[@viiviviviiv]

and it would've instantly gotten them the shipping attention they wanted, frankly lol.

[@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio]

I think Elizabeth Debicki would have been a great choice too.

[@supremophm9910]

the dwarfs in tolkien's world are strong warriors and builders, it was one of the reasons he disliked Disney so much, for always representing them as greedy pigs, with children behavior.

[@nathandutton2860]

It wasn’t really that he hated them for being greedy but more of childish. The dwarves in show white were goofy, silly, had funny names, weren’t taken seriously, and cartoonish. He saw dwarves as a respectful and noble people so seeing them displayed as childish unsettled him because not only did they insult these mythical creatures but they also supported the idea that fairy tales and myths were meant only for children.

[@supremophm9910]

@@nathandutton2860 100% man

[@Foogi9000]

​​@@nathandutton2860 He hated Disney for a myriad of reasons. He valued tradition and loathed how Disney would tone down the original stories, he viewed it as an insult to the intelligence of children.

[@madisonlee2203]

"Oh.. it's all terribly American" this whole video was worth that perfectly timed line 😂

[@roadbone1941]

It's LA west coast America. It ain't the south or Pacific NW

[@dearleader7623]

​​@@roadbone1941This is a bit of a logical fallacy. This is like "no true Scotsman" but applied to Americans. Do we simply want to just lump a longing for something different to just SoCal? Why not all the people living in the South who are sick of the South? Besides, we are a country made up of immigrants who wanted to fuck off from parts of the world that were less favorable. This is a uniquely American experience and, honestly, ot should apply to all Americans because that's unironically the American way.

[@thisisobviouslybait]

@@dearleader7623 That's not what "no true scotsman" is. America being uniquely made up of immigrants is just as moronic of a take. Every single country in the world is inhabited by groups of people who immigrated there at some point in history. Even if you move the goalposts and say well only counting people who immigrated since the colonies were established the entire western half or the world as well as Australia and New Zealand still fit that bill and make your point invalid.

[@bigape8640]

I think a beef that goes under the radar is the lack of monsters in RoP. Each of the Hobbit and LOTR movies has at least two or three larger than life monsters that add an extra level of awe to the world. Rings of Power has 4-ish: 1 Balrog cameo, 1 snow troll, 1 lame looking Warg, and a Sea Serpent that we don't really get to see much of, also some pig wolf things. Middle Earth is supposed to get more monster filled the further back in time you go, so the fact that we don't even get a dragon or an Ent just waltzing through the background of a scene is tragic. With the budget they had they could've had a new Smaug sized monster every episode.

[@thearnorianruby4681]

That's not a warg. That's a deformed wolf.

[@bigape8640]

@@thearnorianruby4681 Personally I thought it was one of the Hyenas from the Lion King but that felt unfair to the Hyenas

[@thearnorianruby4681]

@@bigape8640 lol

[@hawksboy]

Because they were more concerned with making the show look and feel like Los Angeles in 2022 than a fantasy world.

[@bigape8640]

@@hawksboy I fail to see how adding diversity cost $715 million dollars.

[@younggriff6026]

I think for casting racial diversity in open worlds like Tolkien, they could include it in ways that are a little more logical. If it's an isolated tribe that keeps to itself you'd expect homogeneity (whichever ethnicity), whereas cities with ports and trade would be more mixed. You could have communities of elves or dwarfs that have different skin colors live in different geographical areas or have them live together in cities that are more metropolitan. I think racially blind casting ends up creating worlds that look like the population of Californian cities. That is not in itself a bad thing, but it wouldn't explain how that diversity came to be in Middle Earth. You only see diversity if there is migration from places that were previously geographically separated.

[@naurahdeatrisyagitany8365]

I don't think it's that hard to worldbuild into tho. The three Edain tribes came in separate migrations and after them, the Middle Men. It's very easy to make them be physically distinct groups so it makes sense that folks in Numenor are mixed. Also, the Middle Men probably also intermarry with the remaining Edain in Eriador so even Middle Earth humans can have diverse ancestry. For the elves, they can be Awakened already with features from different ethnicities, but certain features, mainly hair and eye color, became dominant in different groups. Even then, pureblood Noldor can have non-stereotypical features, like Miriel's silver hair and Nerdanel and her family's red hair so there is that. We also know that elven groups intermarry and interbreed in Valinor (probably common for folks in Tirion) which is how we have Galadriel and her sibs having the heritage of all three Valinorian elf clans. There is also the isolation of certain elf groups, like the Avari from all three initial clans and the Sindarin, which can isolate and develop different features and form new admixtures when the Noldor went into exile. As for dwarves, Aule made them. Aule can decide to fashion his creations as unique as the earth they inhabit and mine because he is a craftsman and maybe he likes variety in his craft.

[@no3ironman11100]

You are very open minded, unlike most people. Great explanation. Many would easier say they want diverse casting for the sake of the actors (we don't want movies for them, we want movies for us lol) or others would say adding diverse casts is bad in and of itself, when that's far from the truth and sometimes being a little more diverse is fine, shoving a black samurai into a movie about japan, but making them 1/3 of people is very weird . One could have ethnic people in appropriate parts/regions of the story is the better way.

[@Johnaii_Steck]

You're so right, god what would I give to finally see the Dwarves of the Red Mountains.

[@eddthehead123]

They already had black people in setting. People from Harad, Far Harad, and Umbar. They didn't need to add in a beardless dwarf who lived underground her entire life for their token black people check box.

[@MissMCwuffles]

I feel that sometimes "diverse" world building, in which casting directors want the cast to reflect the average American or Western population all living in larger cultures or nationalities, unintentionally imply some preexisting colonialism. I always felt like it implied that an older culture had consolidated many distinct ethnicities into one nation, and I've never seen anyone acknowledge that this unifying culture is almost always European-inspired. In contrast, I've found the diverse stories that I do like tend to acknowledge that separate groups do develop some independent ethnic traits and then actually portray the cultural distinctness of each culture. Of course, I am referring to human societies, and deity-created dwarves and elves can more easily break those rules.

[@LontEnCaras]

Wait. Nobody was enraged, that Galadriel had a sword. Most people were enraged, that she behaved like an angry, impulsive teenager, while at this point in time, she probably already was one of the oldest persons on middle earth. But yeah, there are no gender roles in elven societey and they tend to be taller than humans. Rings of Power seems to have forgotten that.

[@Tar-Elenion]

There are 'gender roles' in Elven societies. Men tend to do the hunting, women the farming. Men bear arms, women abstain from war and are more likely to be the healers. Men tend to prepare food, except for bread which is customarily done by women, invention and change is mostly men, while women bring forth children. Women tended to do the spinning, weaving and playing of music, men the smithing and composing. (With some differences in various elven races). As Tolkien puts it: "There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a _ner_ can think or do, or others with which only a _nis_ is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of _neri_ and _nissi_ , and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar)." MR. Laws and Customs of the Eldar "ner, pl. neri (Elvish) man" "nis, pl. nissi (Elvish) woman" Edit: When using 'men' and 'women' above, I am referring to the 'sex' of the people in question, i.e. male and female, it is not a reference to the race of Men.

[@taelorpickel2830]

@@Tar-Elenion I don't know why you are saying "men" and "women" as if elves are the same as humans.

[@Tar-Elenion]

​@@taelorpickel2830 It seems to have been clear to you that I was using the terms in reference to the difference in characteristic 'gender' activity among the men and women of the Eldar; that is, the sex of the people in question, as opposed to the race (i.e. Elves/Men). Much as Tolkien would do on occasion, e.g. in Laws and Customs of the Eldar: "...the making of bread is done mostly by women [...] cooking and preparing of other food is generally a task and pleasure of men", where these differences are drawn from. Or see Der, Ni, Nis and related in Etymologies (HoMe V). "From their beginnings the chief difference between Elves and Men lay in the fate and nature of their spirits." MR, LQS "Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring..." Letter 152 "Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this 'history', because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world." Letter 153 In the event I will append a note to make sure it is clear.

[@ecthelionofthefountain8267]

I kind of see what you're saying but the Neri and Nissi did have different 'gender roles' but were considered equal to each other. Perhaps that's what you mean.

[@Laurelin70]

@@Tar-Elenion The quote you did ends with " But all these things, and other matters of labour and play, or of deeper knowledge concerning being and the life of the World, may at different times be pursued by any among the Noldor, be they neri or nissi." though. So, even if there are some "natural tendencies" and "general abilities", they are not strict rules and any Elf could do whatever he/she wanted and often shifted his/her interests from one thing to another, since they had so long lives.

[@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio]

This is probably the most clear-eyed and wittiest critique of the Rings of Power I've seen yet. And the deftness with which you wove in your understanding of Tolkien's own flaws is commendable as well.

[@runjennierun07]

​@@rpgadventurer32 beliving in racial superiority is definitely a flaw

[@NioFiota]

@@rpgadventurer32 holy shit you're annoying in the comments

[@gnubbiersh647]

@@runjennierun07 you should write your own books with an imagination like that

[@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio]

@@runjennierun07 As the video says, there's no indication that Tolkien believed in racial superiority in the real world, in fact, the complete opposite. He was writing about various races in his fantasy world as analogues for moral values, both light and dark, and the films based on his works interpreted that into literal light and dark. Did you miss something?

[@jamesriley007]

@@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio not to mention the fact that the books were written during the war when this guy who was into racial superiority was coming to power What was his name? Oh that's right Hitler

[@ana-mariabobe1762]

I think one of the best ways of making something like the orcs was the approach the writers of Dragon Age had towards the darkspawn. The way they reproduce is actually explored in the game and it's chilling, but I can see why Jackson might not have wanted to do something so gruesome. In my humble opinion, the best way to have gone is to have set at least the first season in Harad, Numenor and introduce the Blacklock dwarves, maybe even the Avar. Hell, so little is known about the two wizards sent west that you could have made them as two old ladies. You can still have Miriel as black, maybe her father married a woman from Harad and you'd have a cast of mostly black people. And no one would have batted an eye. I wanted long-haired elves, bearded dwarven women, I wanted far Harad and Easterlings, the Avar as dark skinned elves, the Blacklocks as dark-skinned dwarves, a half Numenor Miriel Queen storyline who is usurped and forced into marriage with her own cousin Ar-Pharazon (like in the books) but working to undermine him from within, I wanted to see the brotherhood between Isildur and Anarion, etc. Honestly Isildur and Elrond should have been the main characters. Period. Because they are perhaps the two names most fans and even those who aren't fans know and we should actually care about how and why Isildur became corrupted by the time he has to cast the ring into the flame and refuses to. Galadriel as a main character doesn't work at all. I would have used her sparingly, or I'd have placed her to play off against Durin the Deathless, the only dwarf who comes to life time and time again. Like how must that feel? To be constantly reincarnated when your people need you and to see how things change, not always for the better for your kind?

[@DaveGrean]

It's honestly ... VERY bold of you to assume that 'no one would have batted an eye' in the situation you've described. Obviously plenty of bigots would still have had meltdowns and called it 'forced diversity' just for focussing on a cast of minorities. As they do every single time, regardless of how much sense the diversity makes in the story. Ever heard of Star Wars, Star Trek? Marvel and DC? Literally the vast majority of popular media, with cases like Rings of Power, Cleopatra, or Snow White, where the diversity as implemented did indeed not make much sense, being relatively exceptional?

[@IllJoy]

Hey guys I found a tourist

[@melkormorgothbauglir.4848]

@@DaveGrean Yes but people who's opinion actually matters wouldn't care about it and probably would have enjoyed the show.

[@mizzymiao]

i know you made this comment months ago, but just wanted to let you know, I love your ideas. That's exactly what was bothering me! I would have loved if they had written it that way! It would have picked up loose threads from the films, given new ideas on diversity a propper introduction and we would have had protagonists that everyone would actually feel emotionally invested in. I feel robbed of that experiece 😢

[@ana-mariabobe1762]

@@DaveGreanmost pleople aren't bigots. They just refuse the forced tokenism being shoved down our throats. If the story they wrote/the characters were good, most people would have backed down that it's forced diversity. Also with no rights to the Silmarillion they could have stretched their wings writing a good tale in the one place we know very little about, about people we also know very little about.

[@carpevinum8645]

The fear of spoilers seems particularly misplaced given the success of the lord of the rings... when everyone, even those who had never read the books, at least broadly knew the ending....

[@Helperbot-2000]

theres always going to be many who havent seen or played something

[@viiviviviiv]

there have been literal studies that show audiences who know the ending of the media they're watching will typically enjoy it more. the hysteria of getting spoiled is extremely overblown. And, if your content can't stand on its own without a shocking twist, then it was not good content. it's like everyone freaking out about trying to preserve a jumpscare in a scary movie. Just because you got 1 second of a reaction doesn't mean it was actually scary.

[@squaeman_2644]

​@@viiviviviivMaybe because they know what theyre looking for theres more anticipation, if its a suprise of course you wouldnt even know about it beforehand. Not spoiling something is also just not being a dick

[@PKS02]

17:35 I think the game Lord of the RIngs Online had a good take on this. During your stay in Mordor after Sauron had died, you capture and take an easterling captain to Minas Tirith for questioning, and along the way, he reveals that Sauron came for the eastern peoples first, that he let an artificial plague kill a large percentage of the population so that desperate people would turn to him.

[@azzyjeffs]

“non-binary Eminem” just killed me 🤣 That’s me when I bleach my hair

[@thegentleartoffisticuffs6983]

You can't just feed us with a juicy title like that and then make us wait

[@LL-tr5et]

naw exactly

[@rachelforero7234]

Literally so sad I have to wait … 92 miniyes

[@tadhghanrahan7976]

I often get the sense that these large corporate shows just don't really know how to write characters. They come across as not understanding how to write "The good guys". In this and the disney stuff I kept finding myself routing for the "bad guys" who are always given more obstacles to overcome and have much more endearing interactions. The heroes are always narcisstic, rarely care about anyone else, or only do so in self-serving fashion and no matter how many stupid decisions they make it just works out perfectly for them

[@PhoenicopterusR]

Villains are the new underdog

[@johnniejupiter]

You should read my novels then, because I've been compared (stylistically) to Tolkien and LoTR by reviewers (and I adhere to canon with bearded Dwarven females) and I agree about how heroes are portrayed. Same reason the corporate world can't emulate the spirit of small business... they just don't relate to the spirit of it. Book one in the series is being re-released globally this week, I think. The Insignificance Paradigm.

[@amb_.]

Villians can’t write heros

[@lkeke35]

The corporations do not know how to write any characters that are not straight white men. They botch the writing every time. There are other companies that actually hire PoC showrunners and writers and they're much better at it, (I'm citing Westworld with anAsian woman writer, Lovecraft Country, with Black women writers, Last of Us, and Interview with the Vampire, shows which had gay, Black women, and men as writers and showrunners). Shows directed, run, and written by white men are and can be very enjoyable, (I'm a huge geek!) but surface diversity is all they seem to be any good at. "Plastic representation" is one of the problems we run into when we're asking people who don't share or even understand the kinds of marginalities they're writing about to write those kinds of characters. They don't have the depth and nuance to write characters who don't look like them. I mean, look at how badly they write white women, and they are presumably the one group of people they're most likely to interact with and are supposed to know well! They're not going to be much better at writing Asian, Black, and/or gay or trans characters, the kind of people they have not taken the steps to understand in the "real" world.

[@tadhghanrahan7976]

@@lkeke35 I understand what you're saying. I just don't think they're particularly good at writing straight white men either. I suppose I'm making the point that there is a fundamental writing/editing problem to how these corporate shows are produced that exists alongside the social issues you're highlighting.

[@pebble8560]

My husband is a lifelong Tolkien nerd. He watches LOTR at least once a month. We watched the first episode of this series, and then he’s never mentioned it again. Enough said.

[@Wifibee]

@@calciocarte It's shit

[@NoPreyRemains]

No one, no matter how much of a fan they are, should watch the same film at least once a month. Once a year, maybe once every six months, but not at least once a month. That's madness.

[@FifinatorKlon]

@@knightjamesii7757 One has nothing to do with the other. Spending 4 - 12 hours once a month every(!) month on watching the exact same movie is hardcore autistic lol.

[@nimallanjayabalan]

@@NoPreyRemainsThen I guess you never met actual fans of LOTR.

[@NrettG]

@@NoPreyRemains If you love it the first time, and you loved it the second time, then it's a pretty safe bet that some will keep watching it until they get bored of it. Sounds like some just haven't hit that point yet.

[@DariaElGrellPozina]

I couldn't even finish episode one of the show because the intro tells us that Galadriel traveled with her group of volunteers for hundreads of years and when we see her with the group everyone just fucking hates her guts. It gave me the vibe of "a new boss who ousted an old beloved boss" except SHE'S THE OLD BOSS. And I felt so tired because it echoed how powerful women are viewed as stone cold bitches undeserving of respect (unlike men who show same qualities), but "we can't say that they're bitches or we're gonna be called sexists cuz everyone is crazy woke so we're just gonna treat them like shit".

[@summit505]

Soon as the reviewer made talking points of racism, misogyny and the rest of the woke talking points I knew exactly where the vid was going.

[@pmpowalisz]

Galadriel’s troops didn’t hate her guts, they just had enough of her risking their lives on a personal mission that went against the kings orders. A male commander would have had a partial mutiny on his hands as well. Also learn the true meaning of “woke” why don’t you.

[@bradleyhiggs3824]

realness

[@wewuzkangz2505]

@@pmpowalisz So they hated her guts, nice try leftie.

[@pmpowalisz]

@@wewuzkangz2505 if they hated her guts, they probably would have killed her, and made up a story when they got back. No, they simply had enough of following her on her personal mission. They likely still admired and respected her though, and Galadriel respected her troops enough to submit to their demand that she abort her personal mission.

[@TKTS1409]

Also the whole warrior revenge quest Galadriel scenario would've been so much better if she *wasn't* portrayed as the underdog and she was just unapologetically powerful without having to be framed as someone at a disadvantage against a bigger enemy, instead she should've been portrayed as being almost equal to or more powerful than her enemy in a 'will she won't she win' type of scenario where if they were to spar they would end up tied most of the time or win an equal amount of times etc. but my biggest problem with the rings of power is that really no one, not the elves, not the hobbits and not the dwarves look like they live or belong in middle earth in my opinion, they look like fantasy creatures sure but not like they're in Arda.

[@TKTS1409]

Not trying to say she's not protrayed as unapologetically powerful already but she's framed as being an underdog when she never has been one.

[@JRexRegis]

Yes! Galadriel is among those elves who can (and will, and did) solo balrogs, duel Sauron and be generally incredibly bad-ass. She should be unapologetically powerful, able to stride into battle and make orcs cringe away by her sheer presence. She should NEVER be approached by some random-ass dudes, requiring *hand to hand combat* to get distance - her presence should be enough to ward them off. Idk why they made her this weird underdog figure who struggles against anything that isn't a balrog or giant shelobian spider monster

[@agilemind6241]

Yes, but also No. Galadriel can only rival Sauron after she receives a ring of power. In RoP, she (and the audience) should believe Galadriel can take on Sauron and win, but this should be arrogance on her part, and she should fail against a similarly powerful entity as Sauron (e.g. a Balrog or another evil Maiar), which should be a reason she supports Celebrimor creating the rings of power.

[@aeliatain2727]

my family hated the norrie storyline so much that we have started referring to any boring/uninteresting part of movies/tv shows as "the norrie of the show"

[@seapeajones]

That's fantastic

[@obiwanobiwan13]

As a Jew, I never knew about the Tolkien/Jews/Dwarves thing, but you know what? Problematic as any real-world-groups-as-fantasy-races coding can be... Compared to the greedy little hook-nosed wizard-bank-running goblins certain OTHER British fantasy authors (and TERFs) use in their real-world coding, *I will take the Artefact-loving Axe-wielding Dwarves of the 1930s/40s role every time!* :p

[@wolftrem4206]

I think one issue is though, that people to often only look at LotR and The Hobbit, disregarding the Silmarillion as the underlying and most important background/mythology for Tolkiens work. Which gives all of these points a more nuanced answer and argument. So that, it is not only the history of the Jewish people that Tolkien draws from, but also the Nibelungenlied and norse mythology. In which dwarfs are very present and have - as far as I am aware - not been linked to being a 1-to-1 imagining of a Jewish person in the story. Saying that the dwarves, given that they were driven from their ancestral homeland to live in exile, resemble Jewish history is not racist. It is simply sth one got inspired by and has no negative or prejudiced point to it. Neither is saying that dwarves speak a semitic language, because Hebrew is not at all the only semitic language. And given that the dwarves dwindle and die out Khuzdul might much better be represented by, lets say, Sumeric. And at last it seems people always focus on the money/gem crafting aspect, but the dwarves are also stone masons. Which in racial stereotypes is not linked to Jewish people. It is its own creation i spired by real world things, but not a situation where someone took a list of stereotypes of a certain people and said "a perfect. In my story I call these people dwarves and no one will notice what i did".

[@berilsevvalbekret772]

​@@wolftrem4206 are you actually trying to explain a JEW what feels racist towards him or not 😂

[@wolftrem4206]

@@berilsevvalbekret772 no? I was simply adding information and a view point to, a concept that appeared new OP and which, imho was not very well adressed in the video itself. Because while i agree with parts of the video, it is also simplifying this particular topic (at least in my opinion). Could you clarify where you had gotten your statement from? Any specific words I used?

[@jahrfuhlnehm]

​@@berilsevvalbekret772 You should quit your diet of lead paint chips, for the sake of everyone you speak to.

[@johnclikeman5041]

@@wolftrem4206 I don't think the fact that Dwarves and Jews are not an exact 1-1 parallel complicates this critique much at all. Tolkein was quite clear that nothing in Middle-Earth was intended to be a 1-1 match with anything in the real world. But you heard in this video that Dwarves being made to resemble Jewish people in some ways was an explicit, intentional choice by Tolkein. Saying that the Semitic language that Dwarves speak is probably more like Sumerian instead of Hebrew is, IMO, not intellectually honest when the parallel is laid out right there in the author's words. Which means that it is more than fair to critique the ways in which that influence draws from negative stereotypes as opposed to neutral or positive ideas. To pick on the other example, the idea of Goblins has existed for centuries, and are not inherently tied to Jewish people. JK Rowling clearly drew on those sources when creating the Goblins in her books. But saying "Griphook isn't a 1-1 imagining of a Jewish person because he's also based on some other ideas" isn't a defense against the charge that part of his characterization clearly is based on a real-world stereotype, and that stereotype is "hook-nosed, greedy banker."

[@defenstrator4660]

"That's not why the fans were mad." Let us not pretend that the race swapping was the only reason the fans were mad. The lore was disrespected on many levels and there were many stupid things about the show. Like how the main character jumped off a boat and downed because she was so stupid she thought she could swim for a few weeks back to land in freezing water. But for some reason was magically not dead and instead met the antagonist floating in the middle of the ocean.

[@caseycovello8204]

This. The racial elements are what the media focused on the most, since it's such a charged topic and makes for great click bait-y headlines, but it was just a shit story that didn't even follow canon. If you're doing a show with a built in fan base, don' alienate the fan base. Seems an overly difficult task these days :/

[@Eagledelta3]

@@caseycovello8204 To be fair, part of that problem can be traced back to the Tolkien Estate themselves who wouldn't allow Amazon to use the full Lore needed to tell the story of Rings of Power.... leaving them to fill in the gaps with story NOT from the books b/c anything not the Hobbit or LOTR were off limits.

[@LeePearson90]

Ya'll weren't on reddit were you... It wasn't the media. Like they say in the video the white supremacists were in full swing

[@mastpg]

Acting, camera blocking, fight choreography, pacing, logical connections within the plot...the show just kinda sucks. It's done poorly.

[@kurtacus3581]

She's a magical elf. Legolas didnt wear winter clothing and walked atop the snow when traversing the mountains. Gandalf fell a kilometer through the earth while fighting a balrog. The elf in the books that took Frodo to Rivendell literally fought a balrog and lived to tell the tale. Interesting we're only applying this standard of realism when the woman is center stage

[@JosephSchneider26]

15:35 petition for a spinoff show "Azog's Diner". The struggles of a young orcish restaurant owner trying to make a living between stealing, violent customers and sudden outbursts of lava and pyroclastic ashes.

[@andrewvalentine797]

Check out Legends and Lattes by Travis Baldree. Not a restaurant, but a coffee shop.

[@melrakan]

And violent dwarven tourists who never tip and always leave drunk. Puts a whole another perspective on why the Orcs hate Dwarves...

[@JosephSchneider26]

@@melrakan You mean they arrive drunk and leave totally shitfaced 😁

[@Leftistattheparty]

This is exactly the kind of criticism about Rings of Power that we need.

[@30-raflymochamadrivaldo14]

@@PhattyBolger Ar you being sarcastic right now or not? I couldn't tell...

[@perchy22]

@@30-raflymochamadrivaldo14 Given the username and the video's frequent evil eying of people with more wealth hording than Smaug, among other things, I suspect not sarcastic. (yes, Bezos literally has horded more wealth than an evil incarnate species living in a mountain full of gold; it's not even a close comparison)

[@adamrbrewer1660]

But like it's kinda... Wrong? I feel the analysis of the role numenorians play in Tolkien's world is unfair and the discussion on race to be a misrepresentation as well. Like Tolkien's main love story was a mixed race story. One of his B plots was about 2 guys from different races overcoming their prejudices and becoming as close of friends as has ever been seen despite the racism in their cultures. Like the story literally has anti racist themes but people keep throwing racism allegations at his works and it just feels overall gross to do

[@squaeman_2644]

​@@adamrbrewer1660Welcome to 2023

[@theMad_Artist]

@@adamrbrewer1660 there are (unintentionally) problematic real-world racial implications in the characterization of Middle-earth's peoples despite the heart of the story being very much anti-racist. She clearly states this in the video!

[@junkfire4554]

17:17 this is so important for medial literacy, especially for fiction. The whole "it's actually pretty fucked up if you think about it" take on fiction only applies if you try to map it 1to1 to reality. But that's not how any of this works. Fiction is what it is framed as. If Tolkien frames the Orcs as inherently evil, they're inherently evil. Their moral simplicity is a fictional element of the story just like the immortality of the elves, because they serve a narrative purpose rather than a social allegorical one.

[@blakeriley8546]

i had the same thought

[@nightsplurge810]

Literally this the video was great until that hiccup

[@Anna-vd7hu]

I think there's a difference between creating a more diverse world, and color-blind casting. If your story takes place in a bustling international city, those are the same thing. But to have a small, insular community that's not seen the outside world in generations, but is still somehow completely multicultural and racially diverse, takes away from the sense of place that you're trying to create. In a work like LOTR, where you see many communities, each with their own distinct culture, language, lifestyle, and infrastructure, it makes sense to honor Tolkien's attention to detail. If a group lives in isolation, it should be relatively homogenous, whichever race you pick/create.

[@SonofSethoitae]

​@@dalriada7554 At least in Wheel of Time, you have the excuse of the Breaking of the World.

[@SonofSethoitae]

@@dalriada7554 I'm not saying it's a perfect explanation, I'm just saying that there's more of a mechanism for a lot of very diverse looking people to be scattered around the world.

[@SuddenReal]

I keep saying it, if you want to create a diverse world, you need non-diverse area's. Europe is a diverse continent, since it consists of non-diverse countries. If you make every town diverse, it becomes just like every other town, which makes it non-diverse. You can't diverge if diversion is the standard.

[@Angrenost02]

​@@SuddenReal To paraphrase a certain villain: when everything is diverse, nothing is.

[@Icetea-2000]

Thank you, that’s exactly what makes sense, you can’t just mix races for the sake of it, and Americans tend to not get this because their whole country is made up of people immigrating to it from all parts of the world. The problem is that american writers tend to apply their own society on these fictional worlds, which is fine with their own works, but is completely rewriting the world of someone else, like Tolkien. No, Middle-Earth is not California ffs. There doesn’t just "happen" to be a black elf, such obvious changes cannot be taken for granted by the characters in the universe and never acknowledged. He’s of a completely different human race and they just try to sell this as if it’s just normal. Where are the several different continents that elves expanded on over hundredthousands of years, growing into distinct races? Oh there weren’t? Because that’s how it was with us humans. But the elves didn’t undergo that same evolution. There is no elvish Africa and Europe and Asia, Elves were never that far apart and out of reach for eons that they could’ve possibly grown so differently, it’s just not possible. They could’ve at least given SOME explanation, like some elves that lived in Harad or something, which still wouldn’t make sense as they couldn’t possibly have lived there for the hundreds of millenia it would take to grow into a different race completely undisturbed by other elves and then just reestablishing contact eons later. But to not even give any explanation and just leave it be as if it’s taken for granted by everyone, that is truly nonsensical.

[@kreestuh4367]

Thank you for this. I hate that the discourse around this show became "wokeness" as I personally felt the show was often pretty regressive, outside of being just poorly written in it's own right. The way they treat women in particular was infuriating, speaking as a woman and also a fan of Tolkien's books. For example, let's talk framing. You say Morfydd is miscast, and I think that's ultimately true, but the production does nothing to help her look the part. She is repeatedly framed (visually and through dialogue) as being childish compared to male characters throughout the show. Most obviously, her most-worn costume is a shapeless shift, just like the one she wears as a *literal child* during the prologue. But beyond this, the camera also consistently *focuses* on how petite she is in comparison to Halbrand or Elendil, each being shown as a head taller than her even if the scene didn't need to be framed that way. And as you noted, Elendil even makes a comment about how brash and young she is, despite the vast gulf in their age and experience. The show kept trying to tell us that Galadriel is powerful and ancient, but then did everything it possibly could to undercut that. Hell, even her iconic line from Fellowship of the Ring ("stronger than the foundation of the earth") is revealed in Rings of Power to not be her own creation: it was all prompted by a man. The writers also missed a huge opportunity to flesh out more of Tolkien's lesser known female characters. Celebrian, the daughter of our hero and main protagonist is...strangely absent. Miriel's grandmother, Inzilbeth, a former Queen and secret member of the Faithful is... strangely absent. Elendil's wife is simply... killed off. And of course, they didn't bother referencing Tolkien's "The Mariner's Wife" even in passing, despite it having a huge cast of women to choose from: a story that along with establishing female inheritance in Numenor, also features a monologue that goes HARD against gender roles. Seems like that could work in really nicely with Miriel trying to hold power over a fractured kingdom. Meanwhile, the new female characters the writers added are also rather... milquetoast. I had high hopes for Disa when her first images were released, I was hoping that we'd get to see new facets of Dwarven culture from her perspective, since in the books, it's 100% male POVs. But in the show, she's... mainly a love interest and a mother. Hmm ok. Bronwyn starts off a little more promising with some leadership potential and a unique skillset as a healer, but then is reduced to... mainly a love interest and a mother (with no less than three fake-out deaths to scare her loved ones during the finale). Earien was basically a non character... I guess Nori and Poppy are a little more interesting, but that seems more like it was a happy accident: because they're basically a female reskin of Frodo/Sam, even down to how they look. Is this really the best they could do? I don't think the producers necessarily did any of this *maliciously*. It's just the same old unfortunate "made-by-committee" story that we've seen a thousand times already. But man if that isn't wildly disappointing for such a rich work. I can't get over how it could've been so much better.

[@spacehootle309]

Agreed. But they didn't have the rights to for example "The Mariner's Wife" or ANYTHING of the Silmarillion. Which includes Celebrian etc. I'm honestly already amazed what they get away with with the rights they have. But why the heck they frame Galadriel to be so tiny, when literally one of her main physical traits is being as tall as any of the boys, is genuinely beyond me.... WHY?

[@Theeight8b]

​ @Spacehootle * They wanted to tell their story and from their perspective. And Galadriel in Rings of Power - is a perfect example of Mary Sue, so they made that it’s were easier to associate yourself with her.

[@BayWa4eva]

you don't understand why people criticize it as woke and then go on and elaborate all the wokeness in it. wokeness is not a good thing, it's an excuse, it's blaming your faults on others. a typical woke film will depict all women as more or less stereotypical men, mostly of the unlikable kind. that's because the woke people are inherently sexist and can't think of a strong women but feel the need to mask it by creating a male lead and casting it female. same for skin colours. these people are the problem, but their life purpose is blaming others. if you complain they can call you sexist, racist, whatnot. try to ask hollywood for a strong woman, good luck. original galadriel could've been one. that the biggest complaint: ROP changed the source to be more sexist while claiming the opposite. also skin colour is an effect of evolution, after long enough time the skin will be a local optimum for the respective environment. now that is mostly about sunlight exposure for humans but it could be also camouflage, warning colours or attractivity for other species. if middle earth has only one respective environment, skin diversity is unrealistic (unless the dominating factor is attractivity which will always create diversity)

[@kreestuh4367]

@@spacehootle309 I sympathize that the rights situation was precarious, but I don't think it tells the whole story. They make quite a few allusions to the wider legendarium throughout the show, especially with some of the background details. For example, they spent time making a replica of Dramborleg-- Tuor's axe. That's a deep cut! Despite this, they choose to cut a lot of the things they DID have the rights to. Celebrian is mentioned in the narrative in Fellowship of the Ring during the Council of Elrond and in Lorien; she's also included throughout the Appendices, both in the timeline portion and in the story of Aragorn and Arwen. I'm not sure what the rationale was behind leaving her out of the narrative entirely? It would've been lovely to see Prime!Galadriel have a relationship with another woman that wasn't wildly antagonistic, at least.

[@alanbarnett718]

"Woke" is basically tokenism reworked for the 21st century, with the added twist that it *has* to be at least slightly insincere for the other woketies to accept it. So, lots and lots of "colourblind" casting, but only in the minor roles. A kick-ass Strong Feminist Role Model, but undercut anything that truly makes her either strong or feminist. Tolkien's racist and classist assumptions suit them down to the ground.

[@PACR66]

"white supremacists love LOTR" I hate this world, that is the saddest sentence I have heard.

[@Enkiaswad]

YES FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT ABOUT SHORT HAIRED ELVES AND NO BEARD DWARF LADY!! There was an opportunity to have bearded women and it being perfectly canon! And don't even get me started on the elves. The elves in Lord of the Rings shaped my whole sexuality but fine... let's normalize gender expression of elves and dwarves 🙄 And yeah actually if Galadriel was a tall majestic lady (like a Gwendoline Christie yes!) I would have liked her tension with Sauron a bit perhaps. Why not have tension between a strong tall woman and a smol guy?

[@Oxaphosphetane]

Give us the bearded ladies amazon you cowards

[@internetenjoyer1044]

Tolkien didnt write all this deep lore just for you to get off over it lol

[@FERDINANDVSLVCIVS]

Black South-American leftwinger speaking here: Guys, it's a Norse and Anglo-Saxon mythology-based story. Of course the vast majority of the cast have to be white, and, well, certainly most of the protagonists. Want more Black representation in fantasy? Just adapt an African legend already. There are plenty of those. Pick one...

[@grimaldur778]

I feel like you actually summed up my issues with RoP with just "it's all so American"

[@photophob]

For the most parts it feels like an american high school play to me. Like the "teenage years of all your beloved LotR characters" 🤣

[@LilyShimizu]

Oops you mentioned how how great it would have been to cast Gwendolyn Christie as Galadriel and now I need it and won’t be able to stop thinking about what a horribly missed opportunity this was.

[@ilonakonradsheim3988]

Oh yes… all the dreams of the possibilities🥲

[@Carrot880]

Nah she's a great actress but too much of a tomboy. She lacks the ethereal grace.

[@haileymaurer122]

The dwarves are another conundrum, that translated differently to the screen than in the books. I like both versions though to be honest. Tolkien's dwarves (at least the later ones) were based on Germanic lore, and were grim, sober, and noble, having a history of battles that cost their people greatly. Their basis on Jewish allegory is an interesting tidbit, and I'm not sure how that factors in. Hopefully it was a result of Tolkien's empathy for their plight after the war. Legolas was the much more light-hearted character, singing and laughing whereas Gimili was deep and brooding. Jackson for some reason decided to base the Dwarves on more Scottish and Irish lore, where they were seen as tricksters. So, the Jackson dwarves led the scenes of comic relief. Both have a special place in my heart though! Great video. Thank you for your insight.

[@Tar-Elenion]

Tolkien says of his Dwarves: "These dwarves are not quite the dwarfs of better known lore. They have been given Scandinavian names, it is true; but that is an editorial concession." Letter 25 "Even the dwarfs are not really Germanic 'dwarfs' (Zwerge, dweorgas, dvergar), and I call them 'dwarves' to mark that. They are not naturally evil, not necessarily hostile, and not a kind of maggot-folk bred in stone; but a variety of incarnate rational creature." Letter 156 "I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue....." Letter 176

[@pietervanderveld3096]

Like tar-elenionmaranwe mentioned, Tolkien thought dwarves like Jews because both people are "at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue....." and NOT because "Dwarves are greedy, therefore they resemble Jews". If you read Tolkiens answer to a German publisher (pre world war II) who needed a declaration of Tolkien being an "Aryan" before publishing his books, you will understand that Tolkien admired the Jewish people.: The answer was : "Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. "

[@RaptorJesus]

@@pietervanderveld3096 What I find fascinating about the "Dwarves are greedy" thing is that... *that's also a racist stereotype in Middle Earth.* The common-people in-universe think it's true, but it's *not.* Dwarves *aren't* greedy, not as a whole. There's a few famous Dwarves, sure, who were consumed by their greed(usually with a 'push' from the likes of Sauron), but Dwarves as a people? They aren't greedy, they're just secretive and private, but *incredibly* generous to anyone they "let in", whether as friend or guest. And you see that in their interactions, in the Silmarilion, the Hobbit and LotR.

[@Dorsidwarf]

@@RaptorJesus Theres an element of retcon - the dwarves of the Hobbit are ferociously greedy and small-minded over treasure, but then in Lord of the Rings, Gimli is almost the antidote to that.

[@jellyfishjones4741]

@@Dorsidwarf And there's a bit more to their tendencies to materialism than conventional greed. Greed wants more, they largely want what they see as theirs already. The tie to gold and such is because as creations of Aule they have an inherent connection to the materials of Middle Earth. They become focused on things, but much of it is because they or a relative probably *made* those things. It's not just about more money.

[@apaloosa01]

The problem of the amazon show is that it was bad : dialogues, no tension, it didn't make me feel anything... remove the fact that it's linked to the LOTR, and just take it as a fantasy show in itself, and it was boring... I mean, you could remove the whole harfoot storyline, and it wouldn't affect anything in the show !

[@lisaashpole8066]

I think the world of Tolkien is so large it leaves so much room for creativity. We don't know a lot about the Haradrim, which might be a good thing considering the time in which Lord of the Rings was created, but I think there is a real opportunity to create an incredible and complex story around their people and the struggles they had with Sauron. Some would be evil, some would have been tricked and believed they were doing the right thing, and others would have fought back and spoken against Sauron. It's an opportunity to show them as more than a monolith in all their complexity. We know Gondor and its terrible treatment of them Haradrim is part of the reason why they trusted Sauron.

[@Arzeusinti]

Very true there is even more room for personal creativity that can expand upon Tolkeins world, but they were going for the big bucks, and I don't think the majority of the LORT enjoyers are too interested in the other cultures and peoples of middle earth.

[@messymermex]

@@Arzeusinti It seems it was the intention to an extent with the Southlanders, who also have a history of serving Sauron, but then Bronwyn and her son Theo are the only characters played by people of color in the region (Nazanin is West Asian/of the Iranian diaspora) that I’ve noticed, although Bronwyn is one of the best characters of the series- and I don’t know why the romance between her and Arondir wasn’t enough for Amazon because it works a lot better than hinting at Galadriel & Halbrand/Sauron. -So I don’t think we can conclude that the majority of people in the Southlands are inspired by people from countries with a majority PoC population like the Haradrim/Easterlings/etc.

[@Arzeusinti]

@@messymermex it's such a weird "romance" as well, it's the kind of thing you'd find in a Tumblr thread or a fanfic (that of Galadriel and Sauron) the typical "I can change him" trope lol. I haven't really watched it tbf, so I didn't even know they had Haradrim characters. I guess you're right, added them as a "test the water" kinda thing, to see if people would be interested in the south. It kinda feels that TRoP is trying to be deep but turned out to be a popcorn flick.

[@joshuabaughman3112]

@@Arzeusinti As a fan of the lore, I suppose I am minority. I recently have been very interested in these places, especially the far east. When I look at the map of the whole middle-earth, it just makes me wonder what can or could be there, both in Tolkien's imagination, as well as mine, beyond the borders of the normal map we all know.

[@eaenneae5822]

@@Arzeusinti I think that it depends on who you mean by lotr fans. Im pretty sure that basically the whole community that loves books wouldn't mind expanding on the universe in a creative and respectful manner. I'm not so sure about lotr movie fans, but honestly... I think that Game of Thrones proved that there is enough people willing to watch politics/wars and fantasy worldbuilding as long as the characters and their decisions make some sense.

[@AM_on_YT]

Thank you for basically immediately saying “and no this show isn’t bad because of diversity” and instead giving a really interesting video essay!

[@choronos]

@@Z-MACx Yeah you're full of it. I've been in countless arguments in comment sections and seen countless videos posted on dozens of right wing channels wherein people are decrying how "rAcE sWaPpInG iS bAd." The main criticism I've seen online of this show is based on how some of the cast aren't white, and that is an egregious affront apparently because elves and dwarves are "supposed" to be white. The "race swapping" complaint is SO mainstream that Elon Musk tweeted about it. Give me a break. Kinda sounds like you're butthurt and bitter because someone called you out for being racist when you complained about brown elves in some comment section somewhere.

[@laisphinto6372]

its a woke agenda when you steamroll established lore to artificially have diversity. also the vast majority of these changes are unnecassery lazy and insult said diverse groups that they try to pander too that is what we mean with woke agenda, lazy writing with a lot of modern political moral larp to hide the fact they are incredibly lazy, cheap and egoistical narcists

[@harrybudgeiv349]

​@Eleiya Umei except it is part of the problem. All of the issues with the writing come from an attempt to tick off boxes that show how progressive their work is.

[@hadrian318]

Ethnography is a thing.

[@hectorrodriguezgonzalez8938]

​@@harrybudgeiv349 How does a dwarf been black instanly make them a bad character ?

[@Hermey7777]

16:25 Gorbag and Shagrat don't want to go live a quiet life, they want to pillage at will without bosses getting in their way. And 16:44 Aragorn never called for the extermination of orcs; after his coronation he makes peace with them and gives them the land around Lake Nurnen.

[@brucetucker4847]

I don't think the second is true, he gave the lands around Lake Nurnen to the agricultural workers who had worked them as Sauron's slaves, and they were Men." IIRC orcs mostly died but a few survived in places of hiding or became scattered robbers and brigands. Orcs in LotR are portrayed as thinking beings but irredeemably evil, which bothered Tolkien later when he considered how any Children of Illuvatar could be made beyond redemption by Morgoth or Sauron, or how anyone other than the Children of Illuvatar could be sentient beings (Dwarves and Ents were made sentient by Illuvatar even though they were originally made by Aulë and Yavanna), but he was stuck with what was published in LotR.

[@jodieg6318]

When I read all the criticisms of RoP being ‘woke’ and pandering, (which it kind of was) but when they kept saying “This was what Tolkien and LOTR was!” I was going “which Lord of the Rings were you reading then?” Besides some of the more obvious stories like Eowyn slaying the Witch-King and Arwen standing up for her right to choose what she wants for her life, I’d like to point out a passage from Return of the King in the Houses of Healing where Gandalf, Eomer and Aragorn are talking about Eowyn and how she rode to war out of despair and Eomer has no idea why his sister was so depressed and desperate and Gandalf says to him: “you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man … her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.” It was very nice that Eomer’s duty lined up with what he wanted to do and had prestige to go with it but no one ever thought to ask Eowyn what she wanted or considered what she was good at because she was woman. Or in modern term, Gandalf told Eomer to check his privilege.

[@internetenjoyer1044]

i think this is an example of woke misreadings of tolkien as per this video. Eowyn for example is not about "she kills the witch king coz shes a strong independant woman and doesnt need no man", she is enviorous of men for their unredeemed pagan virtues, she wants the glory and honour of it all. It's an understandable but inherently selfish motivation. A vanity and vexation of spirit, as the book of solomon has it. it's only when she reaches the pinnacle of pagan virtue; she shes her Lord slain and avanges him against the great enemy, she recoils with horror from it. then she marries Faramir, who embodies the Christian perfection of pagan virtue; bravery and martial skill but not for their own sake, but for their proper purpose; to defend the weak and defeat evil, and then to be put aside (note how this is what elves do, and elves are less fallen than men). She gets "married off" to someone who embodies the proper moral understanding of glory and violence. Before she was in love with Aragorn, but not Aragorn the man, instead the idea of aragorn and the embodiment of vainglory. In Aragorn;s own words, she loves a shadow. So killing the witch king isnt the climax for her, as modern work interpretation believe; it merely causes the conflict needed for her to reach the climax of her arc; getting maried off. or rather, a moral rejuvination of her previously fallen values. I note that you seem to be under her delusion (at least from Tolkien;s pov) since you think Gandalf is checking their privalige by saying what he said. in reality, he is saying that for her, service to the weak is a doom. Hes calling Eomer out, becuase to him also it would be a doom. But actually serving the sick is greater than slaying orcs and puffing ones feathers over doing so. A vanity and vexation of spirit.

[@toddhennen]

I think it’s less about being “woke” and more about being influenced by the movies over the books. Your interpretation is imo definitely closer to Tolkien’s view, but I think he’d also say that healing and serving the weak is a higher calling for all, not just women. Elrond is explicitly one of the great healers of the world, after earlier having carried the banners for Gil-Galad

[@GreatOldOne9866]

“Tolkien’s Galadriel could probably beat you up.” So can Jackson’s Galadriel.

[@englishlady9797]

I think that's a misreading of the source material: Eowyn doesn't despair because of the patriarchy. She basically has depression and seeks death in combat to escape the attentions of Wormtongue who was stalking her.

[@glendaal67]

I don't know about Arwen standing up. It was more like Elrond saying: "You must commit to becoming the king of Gondor and you can have Arwen" And Aragorn agreed.

[@markwrede8878]

The true fail is that there is nothing noble about a revenge plot.

[@vigbjornblaskeeg5813]

I appreciate the take that Eowyn resembles an underdog but I don't think that was Tolkiens vision for her. She wasn't denied the ability to fight because she was a woman, it was because she had a duty to lead should Theoden and Eomir die in battle. I don't think Theoden would have really cared if any other nameless woman hopped on a horse really. It seemed more of a sense of duty. I see Eowyn as more of a broken/frustrated character. angry with being purposeless and helpless as people she losves go off and die and not be able to control it. Angry and desperate enough to disobey her king and fight when she was instructed to lead. but in the end she finds more value in healing than killing so she becomes a healer and is more fulfilled.

[@calumwatt4360]

"Apparently Peter Jackson's Orcs have restaurants since they know what a menu is" - made me literally spit out my tea as it had never occurred to me before 15:21

[@Memoiana]

Army mess and canteen have menus..

[@laurencefraser]

@@Memoiana Well, modern ones do when the logistics train can manage it. In the past it was a lot more common for it to just be 'this is what was made today so this is what you get'.

[@richborn6700]

They marched from Isengard where Saruman had an entire stocked pantry. Whether he's feeding the troops or not hes definitely structured enough to have a weekly menu for himself at the least

[@jefR6875]

Colorblind casting is a superficial and insulting way of offering representation. if they wanted to tell a racially diverse Middle-Earth story, they should have told the story of the two Blue Wizards and their travels and efforts to subvert Sauron in the south and the east. Then, they could have expanded the representation in Middle-Earth in a way that was true to canon. Tolkien fans would have loved to see that story. Tolkien fans would STILL love to see that story. No need to shit on the Silmarillion at all.

[@JasonOfArgo]

Calling Tolkien a "dickhead" is wildly reductive and almost flippantly insulting. I think this video fundamentally misunderstands what Tolkien was actually trying to say, and seems to assume that any kind of comparison of fantasy races to real ones is fundamentally racist and bad. If that's the case, then every fantasy that portrays a fantasy version of a real world culture (fantasy Mongols in Song of Ice and Fire for instance) is inherently reductive, malicious, and comes from a place of misunderstanding. Using particular aspects of certain cultures (language, propensity for violence, etc.) is not stealing, nor is it a sign of extreme racism. “I do think of the ‘Dwarves’ like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their native tongue” is not racist, it's a portrayal of what Jews were genuinely going through in his days: displacement, isolation, and seclusion among those who spoke their language and followed their customs. In fact, most races on earth do that when they're suddenly thrust in large numbers into a place where their culture isn't the majority. It's assuming that Tolkien had some longstanding bias AGAINST Jewish people, and against people of other races in particular, completely ignoring that as a scholar Tolkien was well acquainted with the storytelling motifs. Yes, there are "greater" and "lesser" races of Men... because that's how most ancient myths worked. Gods, demigods, regular people, all in a hierarchy of nature. Greater and superior kinds of beings that gradually degenerated. An exploration of why people saw beauty and felt great emotion for something they felt was lost when the world around them was violent and full of ugly, nasty people. We literally do the same thing now with our superheroes. And those "greater Men" were greater in pure power and physicality and might, NOT morality, as the Numenoreans themselves became evil conquerors. What it's NOT is Tolkien saying there are literally "superior races" like the Nazis did or something. Sheesh, and the rest of the video seemed so on point.

[@damaramu.]

Did you even watch the video?

[@JasonOfArgo]

@@damaramu. obviously I watched the video, or I wouldn't be commenting on specific points made in it. Do you just throw that question around and mistake it for an argument?

[@IronheartvsMiles]

Cry about it racist

[@lordjustinian2913]

I would say they definitely should've kept the androgyny of the Dwarves and Elves because of how that just honestly works, like the idea of Elven men just being pretty and elegant and what we would consider feminine kinda makes a lot of sense within the Elves and the same applies to Dwarven women, like I can imagine Dwarven women being just as rowdy as the men due to the culture of the Dwarves. I think race is interesting in Tolkien's work because I do think while the Orcs are definitely portrayed negatively and as inherently evil, also you hit the nail on the head as in a lot of the race issues in Tolkien's work are more closely linked to class and very few shows and film studios try to tackle that problem and none of them are brave enough to simply because they might be labeled communist if they dare to address the problems of class in the world of Tolkien. I would use an example of how diversity can be done more correctly in a series that isn't really that diverse. To me just imagine culture being the defining feature of people not their race, because that in turn creates a more realistic sense of diversity like take for example. If a Half Orc from Dungeons and Dragons grew up in a culture that prized peace and intelligence, you could see that Half Orc being a smart peaceful being who doesn't want to fight all the time because of the culture they grew up in, then you take a noble's son who is raised by an Orcish tribe in the same series and that Orcish tribe is very nomadic and fights a lot of people due to the fact they live in a desert and raiding is the only way to survive, that son of a noble is going to be a more Raider type of person because of the culture he grew up in, but then you can add Orcs who have a calmer nature in that tribe. Because with the bigger focus on culture rather than race it reflects the diversity of our world. Because our world is very different, a South African man who is black has a very different culture to a Black American man because they come from two different countries, one has a culture that can trace all its history back to almost B.C.E period potentially and the other can trace their history to an African culture but due to being American a lot of that formerly African culture is lost as fast food and consumer culture is more prevalent in a Black American man. I think an even better example is this though Indigenous Australians are probably the best example of differences in culture rather than race. You cannot compare a Black American to how an Indigenous Aussie lives because their cultures are significantly different in massive ways, yet we would say, "They are both black people." The same even applies to white people and Asian people, like we wouldn't call China and Japan the same in terms of culture, or we wouldn't call Poland and France the same in terms of culture and yet we would say, "Oh they are the same race." And yet here we go, a African man from Nigeria who lives in France his whole life would call himself French though and would try and practice his African culture in small ways like maybe the food he eats might be more Nigerian in style. So in all honesty that is why for me culture is more significant when compared to race. Because race does certainly exist and should be taken into consideration but when creating a world, the best way to separate different groups of people is by playing more with culture and focusing more on race as a more physical feature and culture represents how they act and go about their lives in the world. Because if we entirely focus on race that basically means we consider all of them to be the same as each other. So are all African cultures the exact same as each other, no they damn well aren't the same and that is because of culture and that needs to be the way we think about race in worlds like Middle Earth because it's like I can imagine a guy born in Rhun living in Gondor for the majority of his life and setting up a small shop or even place for people to eat where he cooks food that he might have loved in his home country but then he embraces aspects of Gondorian culture as well.

[@matiasluukkanen7718]

Dwarves are not rowdy like football hooligans in Glasgow pub that Jackson made them out to be. They were semitic warrior poets who were unforgiving and indomitable, grim and fearsome in anger, but steadfast in friendship. This show was doomed to fail, as it built itself upon misconceptions and adaptation of Tolkien, instead of trying to adapt what Tolkien actually wrote. It is perfect piece of americanized popular culture.

[@hozie6795]

@@fantasywind3923 To be fair, none of that precludes having feminine features? I agree that book Legolas is cool as fuck and everyone massively underestimates the immense physical strength required to be a pre-modern archer, but he could still absolutely be a totally yoked twink. While I do not think that Tolkien intended his elves to be read as androgynous, I do think it is a cool way that interpretation and response to his work has evolved past his original intention. Elves not really aligning with traditional ideas of masculinity and femininity and possessing their own sort of ethereal androgyny contributes to the sense of otherworldliness that they have in Tolkien's writing. They are fair beings from a different age; why should their beauty be limited by the crude physicality of the body?

[@lordjustinian2913]

@@fantasywind3923 The thing is I don't think it's a "ladylike" interpretation of the characters though, it's the fact in our current world, men who care about beauty and appearance are often called "feminine" by our current society and yet Elven men are very beautiful and pretty boys who can do violent stuff but they are very beautiful men which by men who consider themselves masculine would be considered feminine.

[@partyboi8773]

@@matiasluukkanen7718 I agree with almost everything you said, except its being "Americanized" popular culture. It's "Hollywood-ized" (or "profit-driven, cash-grab") popular culture. Call it bias, as I do happen to be American, but authors from the U.S. created much of the most innovative, influential, and nuanced fantasy/SF in the past century. You may have heard of Robert E. Howard, Charlotte Perkins Gilman, W.E.B. Du Bois, Ursula Le Guin, Isaac Asimov, Samuel R. Delaney, Robt. Heinlein, Philip K. Dick, Octavia E. Butler, N.K. Jemisin, Harlan Ellison, Kim Stanley Robinson, Gene Wolfe...

[@ingweking8748]

This is a lot of big words to spew nonsense

[@nathanielmonroe3057]

I found… alternate methods to watch this show because as much as I love Tolkien, Amazon. This was a really interesting conversation on the show, raising so many points I did not even consider spending so much time lost in lore implications and the utter splendor of Numenor. That said, it was so nice to hear someone even tangentially confirm my frustration with Tolkien’s work as anti-orc propaganda. My family is very deeply steeped in all things Tolkien and that usually draws eye rolls. But it runs so much deeper than even my shallow read obviously. Sharing this with my family for sure.

[@brandonc7566]

As a black man I never knew they were using it for that kinda shit but heyy I would not change a damn thing about LOTR, let them be 😂

[@johnkeane1583]

I would like to add that in deeper lore there were Haradrim who resisted Sauron, we just don't see them because all we do see of them were the invading force under Sauron's command. One of the blue wizards was allegedly involved.

[@stefanoputignano1555]

wasn't Khand the place where the Blue wizards went to try and convince the people about Sauron's danger?

[@lanagievski1540]

Gwendoline Christie Galadriel sounds almost perfect to me and I’m now accepting no less than that

[@JC-yy8iv]

The second she started telling us how Galadriel was supposed to look my mind immediately went to her, now that would be some inspired casting

[@WhiteNucklin]

16:30 wrong

[@Marcel-yu2fw]

@@LadyAndTheMask Exactly. The only thing you could criticise is, why Tolkien wrote the Orcs like that in the first place. But I think thats just the nature of the genre of Fantasy: There is always an entity that is just pure evil without redeaming qualities, like Sauron and the Orcs or Voldemort, that the underdog hero has to fight. It is not supposed to represent the real world and if some Nazis use Fantasy stories to justify or promote their twisted world view, that just means they are stupid.

[@FerroMagelock]

Seeing that it is a prequel, there is a super obvious way they could have added diversity without resorting to the sort of bland table scrap casting we're used to. Just have part of the series take place in Harad or with the Easterlings. Imagine following a story where someone(s) notice the power growing in Mordor, and try to unravel what it going on/resist. There are plenty of places that they could spice up and expand upon pretty freely.

[@laisphinto6372]

for that you have to assume they actually know anything about the vast lore from tolkien . thats the same reasons why we get so many race swapped supeheroes and barely og diverse superheroes because these idiots are all for equality but never bother to Research even the surface level to realize that blue marvel or icon exist.

[@noscar3557]

(about what is said around 13:00) the fact that this show revolves entirely about a revelation really prove that the writers didn't understand Tolkien at all since he is the king of spoiling his own stories (anyone who has read the Silmarilion knows this)

[@apaloosa01]

so sauron just...(Boromir meme) walks to mordor ? I know it's been done a hundred times, but man does it still makes me laugh !!

[@qwertyTRiG]

I love Tolkien's writing deeply, but I don't believe it was perfect. This is going to be interesting.

[@mainstreetsaint36]

He was rather wordy, describing just about everything. Still good literature though.

[@brooksboy78]

@@mainstreetsaint36 Eh, not really. His writing often goes off on tangents about the lore (which I love), but his actual physical descriptions are rather sparse. People debate endlessly on things like what the Balrog looks like because he didn't spend that much time on describing their appearance.

[@MonographicSingleheaded]

yeh Tolkien himself changed many things as he grew more experienced, so ofc he never thouyght of his own creations as prfect, more like a work in prog

[@iangraham9050]

Tolkien’s philological style and refusal to write in an allegorical fashion sets him light years ahead of any author who has ever lived. He purposely gave less description at the behest of his most fierce critics - his children! They always bemoaned his descriptions as taking away their imaginations, making Tolkien write and rewrite much of his characters’ descriptive prose to accommodate that very critique; and thank goodness for that. Anyone who thinks he wasn’t perfect need to understand that; to cover ‘everything’ in the massive world of Middle-earth and the complex races therein, he would have to have lived for well over a hundred years. His works extend much further than the creations of Eru Illuvatar.

[@qwertyTRiG]

@Timothy Dalbeck I can think of one scenery description, in which the Three Hunters see snow-capped mountains to their west reflecting the sunrise, which is legitimately beautiful enough to make me cry. And that's a short paragraph. The idea that Tolkien spends pages describing trees is very much a myth.

[@ToxicPancake88]

To be fair to Jackson the main “dark skinned” Orc in his movies were the Uruk-hai, and when seen in natural light like in the opening of the Two Towers are rather purple in hue, the vast majority of the other orc breeds were green and grey in skin colour. Moria Orcs were very pale and Morannon Orcs were even orange and blue in tone so I personally wouldn’t see this depiction as particularly problematic. Great video all round though, very interesting and fun critique

[@TheBiggestMoronYouKnow]

being obsessed with skin darkness is hilarious and red flag full stop.

[@kosaciecsyberyjski]

Yup the fact that Mordor is dark as fuck and the movies have a lot of color coding means they all looked just black, which is a shame

[@jpnesseth]

I can't stop laughing at referring to ring wraiths as 'goths, really'...🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@veroproks7384]

Damn, now I am absolutely stunned by the idea of Gwendoline Christie as Galadriel. They have to cast her in the new movies, she's absolutely perfect!

[@faenigma]

The short-haired elves really killed my immersion lol

[@MagicBrianTricks]

Aragorn is in no way a "nepo baby"

[@MagicBrianTricks]

@USERZ123XD Aragorn has no claim to be King of Gondor. He is descended from Isildur, the King of Arnor. The kings of Gondor were descended from Anárion. Anárion and Isildur were brothers but the two kingdoms were separate. Nobody in Gondor would really even know who Aragorn was descended from let alone recognise he had a claim to the throne. He was never the "rightful" King of Gondor. Faramir proposed that Aragorn be made king because of his actions during the War of the Ring. However, he does recognise his kingly blood and his descent from the Númenóreans.

[@MagicBrianTricks]

@USERZ123XD I'm talking about the actual books, not Jackson's films.

[@komo2542]

Sorry if it was meant to be ironic (didn't sound that way to me) the line: "But colour blind casting in rings of power is definitely a better move then giving us all white heroes and basically creating hundreds of jobs that are like... only for white people." like, what happened to casting for the role like you said with Galadriel? The thing that sets Tolkiens world apart from other fantasy is the sheer depth of it right, that's what makes it feel "real". The people of Rohan look different from the men of Gondor or the Easterlings etc because they're different ethnic groups. In our real world modern times we can have a diverse society because of fast travel and globalisation. In middle earth a man from far Harad ending up with the Harfoots would be a Marco polo figure. Speaking of, the Harfoot tribe doesn't look to be more than 50 people, so after two or three generations realistically they should all look the same again and they don't seem the types to take in a lot of outsiders. Casting them to look diverse within the group (just because of external circumstances such as wanting to hire marginalised people) takes away the grounded sort of realism. It's like Minas Tirith being surrounded by a grassy plain in the movies (external circumstances; Easier to shoot, less expensive set etc) whereas in the books it's obviously farmland. It's taking shortcuts which in the end just makes for a shallower depiction of middle earth. Casting short Numenorians, casting uglier masculine and worst of all OLD elves... I'm trying to suspend my disbelief but they don't make it easy. The rings of power had a budget of almost a billion dollars, they should not need to take any shortcuts whatsoever.

[@melrakan]

That's a legitimate problem, yeah. Another legitimate problem is that films exist in the real world and real world are employed by their production - and if only white people are cast, that has the effective consequence of just creating more jobs for white people that are excluded for black or asian people. It's something we kind of want to move away from. Gondorians, for instance, could very well have been cast as any skin color - Gondor was a large kingdom of many ethnicities. Elves, too. Not to even mention elves, many of whom could be from Beleriand where the slate is blank on what different 'ethnicities' are supposed to look like, for the most part.

[@quirkyblackenby]

You’re gonna lose it when you find out elves and hobbits and such aren’t real

[@havtor007]

@@melrakan In the real world Hollywood is casting more black people in % then the actual % of black people in America. Just because you wanted to take into account the real world via the film industry, in the real world they are accurately even over represented in Hollywood works. So no it is not a legitimate problem. Just because you want something to be true does not change reality. Lord of the Rings is a fictional tale sure but it is based on northeuropean folklore mythology for the most part even going so far as to literally take myths from those places. places that had less then 0.1% anything other then white til the 1900s. This would be like taking Subsaharan African folklore and mythology and casting white people for the roles. (and there are quite a lot of white people in that part of Africa these days.) And "Gondor was a large kingdom of many ethnicities. " The people they used was native people living in the country of new Zealand who wanted to be in a movie and had the ability to do so. It is not Peter jacksons fault that other ethnicitiess did not come forward, and the few actors that was actually actors from faraway just so happened to be white i do not know why they cast them specifically but they did. Just because you are a racist does not make the works of someone who was in the battle of somme racist a place where for 6miles of land 1 000 000people got killed, and in the first day 12 000 English people got killed before 12:00. A person on the allied side got killed every 4.4seconds. JRR Tolkien literally saw some of the worst of humanity happen saw 16year olds who had zero military training get shot down by machine guns, saw wave after wave of family neighbours friends get mowed down. And now after his death and over 100years after it happened people try to smear a man who survived from one of the most terrible battles of both world wars. A person who had to have horrible trauma from this.

[@squaeman_2644]

​​​@@melrakanWhat a completely stupid comment, jacksons trilogy was mostly white but think about the extra media that came from those movies that NO DOUBT ended up creating even more jobs... For everybody... Yet ROP couldnt do the same because they didnt make the fans happy. Were black people somehow out of work in the early 2000s? I must not remember Chapelle or Blade... Gondor are descendants of Numenor so for the most part would look the same, like Mediterranean/Latin. And Elves are white, regardless of where in the world you went. Dark elves are named that way because they spend most of their time in shadow away from the sun...

[@JamesGraham1974]

I suppose, if you squint a bit, you could say that Galadriel only looks short because she hangs out with Numenoreans who are all super tall. For the record though, I agree with you and am glad I'm not the only one upset by all the horrible elven haircuts in RoP.

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

Well, if you put her in frame with Elendil the Tall - who earns that moninker by being nearly 8 feet tall - it makes sense. But Show Elendil isn't really particularly tall amongst his fellow Numenoreans, it starts to fall apart.

[@JamesGraham1974]

@@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t If only the special effects company they used had somehow devised a series of camera techniques to make short people look much taller and vice versa. It would have come in really handy!

[@englishlady9797]

Galadriel looks short even in comparison to regular humans and certainly among other Elves (some of whom are not Noldor). The actress if 5"2 in real life. She is short.

[@josabby474]

Now I’m bummed about something I never knew I missed. Gwendoline Christie would have been an awesome Galadriel.

[@bewilderbeastie8899]

This is what happens when you let Mormons near Tolkien. I just wanted an adaptation of the Second Age. I wanted to see Númenor's rise and fall, the consequences of its Imperialism. I wanted to see Galadriel and her desire for a kingdom, and HER Imperialism. I wanted the creation of the Gates of Moria. I wanted to see the raw homoeroticism between Celebrimbor and Annatar (as his rightful twinky self) as they develop and create the Rings, and the inevitable fallout of the War of Sauron and the Elves. I wanted to see Ar-Pharazon's madness and hunger for immortality as he forces his cousin Tar-Míriel to wed him and Sauron becomes the high priest of a cult of human sacrifice to Melkor. I wanted to see Elrond and Celebrían fall in love, and maybe Oropher and a younger Thranduil and the thorny politics of Lothlórien vs Eryn Lasgalen,, and heck, a ghostly but anonymous spectre with bleeding hands singing mournfully on a mist-shrouded beach because we don't actually have the rights to Maglor. But no. We got fucking Sauron/Galadriel Reylo.

[@bewilderbeastie8899]

Also re: Dwarves and Judaism... the Dwarves and the Noldor are explicitly stated to have deep parallels with each other, in what and how they create and what they love: jewels, gold, architecture, lore, and in the way they view monogamy. The great and mighty High Elves have so much in common, culturally, with the Dwarves. The racial aspects of Tolkien's works are so far from perfect, and it's absolutely right to critique and pick apart these aspects. acknowledging unintentional harm does not take away from the good parts of something. We wouldn't want it to be better if we didn't love it.

[@BreakingStubad]

Women in lead roles who feel tokenised seem to be a prevalent problem in hollywood (and this goes for poc too, although we don't even get to see many... sooo)

[@SomeThingOrMaybeAnother]

There are bunch of factors here. One is "representation", where the "representative" has to be at their best, so ends up either flawless, or worse, the objective flaws never get acknowledged. And there is merch to sell, so any edge has to be dulled, to push a couple more funko pops. And then there are some foreign markets with "issues". Very safe, very boring. Secondly, if the character is flawed or dares to fall into any tropes, or some line of dialogue approaches a hot topic issue vaguely, and there is backlash. Progressive cannibalisms drives me up the wall.

[@Ferreneh]

Agree. I think the filmmakers have good intentions, but just fail to execute good and well-written women. I think this problem is so highlighted in fantasy category nowadays because that's usually where female characters have succeeded most. But constantly and forcefully producing common tropes gets boring quickly. The problem still in movies is that female characters lack enough unique character, depth and self-agency. Schnee has also done great videos about this of both Arcane and LOTR, also comparing the two.

[@therealvang]

Probably not the only one to say this but Aragorn never commands a genocide. Without a leader to drive them the orcs basically go back home. Mordor is given to them but like all the other races aside from men slowly die out. "After the ultimate defeat of Sauron, Mordor became mostly empty again as the orcs inside it fled or were killed. Crippled by thousands of years of abuse and neglect, but capable of sustaining life, the land of Mordor was given to the defeated foes of Gondor as a consolation"

[@mknees1467]

"the devil's boyfriend" I died right then and there

[@Culturewatcher]

I keep asking myself wtf Galadriel thought she was going to do to kill Sauron. If she knew what he was what made her think she could kill him once she finds him? It's never brought up until the reveal where it's like 'oh, the plan was to half heartedly try to stab him'

[@guyr3618]

Well, Noldor elves have killed maiar before. At the very least, Galadriel should have been able to destroy Sauron's physical form. Though it was bound to be a very tough fight. The show actually presented her as less powerful than she should be, which is why her plan seems silly...

[@cowpercoles1194]

That would require the writers to actually think, instead of just using an AI to write the scripts.

[@englishlady9797]

@@guyr3618 The Maia they killed were Balrogs. Balrogs in terms of status were always lesser Maia who had been corrupted long before, and had lost the ability to shapeshift. They were basically *locked* into that form. Sauron was one of the most powerful Maia ever created, far more powerful than any Balrog, and in the 2nd Age was at the height of his power. There is no way Galadriel would have been able to beat him: even Finrod lost to him in a magic standoff and he was supposed to be equal to Galadriel in might. The only person who ever really handed Sauron's ass to him in a fight was Luthien, and she was half Maia, being aided by Huan, who formerly belonged to the Vala Orome. What makes it stupid is that Galadriel who grew up in Valinor with Maia thought she could just kill one with a knife.

[@guyr3618]

@@englishlady9797 Sauron was killed by Gil Galad (a Noldo) and Elendil (a man), don't forget. And Galadriel was described as the mightiest of the Noldor other than Feanor, so, she was mightier than Finrod too. Again, it was going to be a tough fight. But it's not impossible to imagine a scenario in which Galadriel might beat Sauron.

[@englishlady9797]

@@guyr3618 ..and don't forget that both Elendil and Gil-Galad died in the process. Neither of them came out that fight alive. If you read the passage referring to Galadriel as the "mightest of the Noldor" in full, or it might be another it counts her *alongside* Finrod as the mightiest of the Noldor. People often forget or fail to mention that Finrod is counted along with her. The passage which calls her "greatest of the Noldor" in the 3rd Age continues by saying she was "incapable of punitive action" and that her strength was in wisdom and counsel. People often pick and choose which part of those passages they want to quote. Furthermore, what does "might" mean? It doesn't always mean strength or military prowess in Tolkien's work. Aldarion was described as mighty as well but he was not a great warrior.

[@christopherprivett3344]

Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, aren't legit people. They were created by Morgoth as a defilement and mockery to the other races. (Morgoth = Suron's Boss). Orcs were ruined men, Goblins were twisted Elves, Trolls were mocking Ents if I remember right. LOTRs was written by Tolkien as a love letter to England and to be a modern fable for the UK, because he really loved England. Amazon went and messed the whole thing up adding modern politics to a story that didn't need them. Not everything should be about gender politics ffs. Sometimes we just want a damn story that's good. But nobody seems to be down with writing good stories anymore.

[@disintegratesintobinary655]

Orcs and goblins are essentially the same race, and they are corrupted elves.

[@Uriel238]

_Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys!_ In _The Two Towers_ the Peter Jackson movie, this is one of the more notorious lines from a point where Saruman's Orcs make contact with the Uruk force tasked with grabbing the Hobbits, and yes, seems meant to show that Ork and Uruk alike are beastly (in that they'll eat raw meat and cannibilize their own, say the way that lions do and civilizerd humans don't.) This scene doesn't appear in the book _The Two Towers_ but there seems to be an almost related scene. One of the the orcs gives Merry and Pippen some dried meat, the same rations the rest of the troopers are eating, and the Hobbits find the meat questionable, wondering what it's from. The Orc takes offense like _Check your effing privilege shortstack. Our rations are safe, and in fact I _*_*do*_*_ know Geneva conventions on the treatment of civilians and POWs._

[@sabrinabeeart]

Adding to that: there's a whole entire scene at the beginning of Return of the King at the spiders lair where Sam overhears the Orcs talking. They are chatting about their frustrations with their position and doubt in their commanders and the whole operation. They talk about their hopes for the future and their plans for once the war is over, they talk about the loss of comrades. They talk like people because they are. It's one of the scenes that make me most uncomfortable with Tolkiens world because the Orcs are so clearly not just mindless beasts. They have a history and culture and from an 2020s pov their treatment in the books is extremely *yikes*.