The Ransom Theory of Atonement

[@atonementandreconciliation3749]

Matthew 20:28 and Mark 10:45 may have a translation problem when they are read in their full context. Both are passages of an account about future positions in the coming kingdom of Christ, but his response is still within the original topic under discussion. The topic under discussion had nothing to do with atonement or sin, it was position and power. In Greek, the word “anti” in “ransom for [anti] many” means “against, contrary, in opposition to, in contrast to, opposite to, etc.”. When the phrase is changed to “as a ransom, in contrast to many”, it is easily seen that he was contrasting his ultimate end with what he was asking from his followers. He offered his followers lives of servants in contrast to positions of power. Again, the topic under discussion had nothing to do with atonement or sin.

[@kevinalbertjoyce8852]

Yes. I am in agreement with you. Mark 10:45 was dealing with servanthood and Mark was reiterating the servanthood theme that Isaiah expounded on within Isaiah chapters 42-49.

[@kevingeorge1095]

@@kingdomseekers1973 The PSA theory has perhaps the most problems of them all. Here is part of a list I have compiled in a book I am writing: 21. PSA is about paying God for sin in order to cancel God’s wrath. It is God pouring His wrath on Christ, punishing him until His desire for justice was satisfied. Even if this were possible, the primary result would be to reconcile God to humanity, not stopping our sin. But the Bible says Jesus was reconciling man to God, on God’s terms, which requires righteous living, a cessation of sin! The objective is to motivate the world to be reconciled to God, not for God to get satisfaction due to His sense of justice being offended. “All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” 2 Corinthians 5:18-20 ESV 22. PSA preachers typically have people accepting Jesus as a substitute for being reconciled to the God, the Father OF Jesus. It is the God and Father OF Jesus who seeks for us to be reconciled to Him. Reconciliation with God’s Son cannot be an appropriate substitute and is not genuine reconciliation with God, the party whom we have offended. Therefore, the term “substitutionary atonement” is on its face a serious error, separate and in addition to the payment idea. 23. The word “atonement” in English and in Hebrew, when used in a relational context, is about reconciliation, not payment. An action that has reconciliation as its goal cannot become a substitute for the actual reconciliation. Furthermore, a belief cannot substitute for relational reconciliation - believing that Jesus paid God on our behalf does not resolve the relational problem. An “act of reconciliation” cannot also be substitutionary for the reconciliation being sought. (There is no such thing as “substitutionary reconciliation” i.e., being reconciled with a third party instead of with the individual who was injured or offended.) Problem category 6: Righteousness 24. Most PSA proponents claim that humans have a sin nature that goes beyond merely having a natural choice to sin; that we are sinful by design and are incapable of choosing to be righteous or choosing to turn away from sin. Yet, we read in the Bible that people were able to turn from sin, both in the Old Testament as well as in the New. They did not need Jesus to do it for them, nor for an external righteousness to be transferred to them. Both Jews and Gentiles had the ability to live righteously and did not have to believe in Christ in order to be righteous. Here are a few of many texts related to this subject... atonementandreconciliation.com/chapter-3-biblical-logical-problems/

[@mjsch777]

I agree we were slaves to sin and death. So Yeshua send us free from sin and death. The wages of sin is death. Praise YAH for His son!!

[@kevinalbertjoyce8852]

God the Father planned, God the Son, Jesus executed and God The Holy Spirit applied Salvation for humanity. Satan had no role in eternal life for humans.

[@leenieledejo6849]

A lot is unBiblical in your comment. NOWHERE is "God the son" and "God the spirit" mentioned in all of Scripture. [And "God the father" should be translated as "FATHER GOD"]. You'll never understand Scripture if part of your mind is conditioned by what you've been told by people. You need to repent of that.

[@christian-ns8ji]

I would like to ask what graphics app is used in this video, looks just the type I need for myself .

[@kingdomseekers1973]

Video scribe

[@MrKappaKappaPsi]

Satan having to accept a deal for our salvation is very dangerous theology.

[@dougtibbetts857]

Jeremiah 31:11For the Lord has redeemed Jacob, And ransomed him from the hand of one stronger than he Galatians 3:13Christ bought us with His blood and made us free from the Law. In that way, the Law could not punish us. Christ did this by carrying the load and by being punished instead of us. It is written, “Anyone who hangs on a cross is hated and punished. Oops! So Christ “ bought” us from the Father? Who was the one stronger than Jacob? Payment to the father precludes forgiveness… in other words if you have a debt you cannot pay and someone else pays it…. The debt was NOT forgiven! The debt is forgiven when you repent( repentance unto the remission of sins… look it up doh!) Esau sold his birthright for a mosel of food… you sold your birthright for carnal sins! It was bought back! Isa52:33 For thus says the Lord: “You have sold yourselves for nothing, And you shall be redeemed without money.” All the early church up until Augustine believed that! Polycarp… Clement’s

[@iandacosta107]

What translation are you using for Gal 3? "being punished instead of us" is very interpretive, not very translation-y is it?

[@realSeanMcMahon]

Out of curiosity - 1:23 on, you are using Hebrew names, but you are quoting Mark and 1 Tim - which versions/translations are you using? I was not aware there were Hebrew originals of these writings

[@kingdomseekers1973]

I use Yeshua over Jesus And Yahweh over God. I believe the text is in Greek but I prefer to use the Hebrew and Aramaic names for the Almighty and the Messiah

[@nvdxn]

Does substitutionary atonement require a sacrifice for God to forgive sins?

[@nvdxn]

​@@kingdomseekers1973 Thx for responding, sorry its taken me a while to get back to you, we are travelling and not spending a lot of time on the computer lately. I am still trying to work this out for myself too. My personal opinion is that substitutionary atonement presents God as not being able to forgive sin through His mercy, that He requires a human sacrifice to forgive sin. However, in the Scriptures we do see examples of God forgiving sin without a sacrifice. Another problem I have is the Christian theology that animal sacrifices were temporarily covering sin until Yeshua came. From my understanding this belief is at least partly based on Hebrews. So does Hebrews teach that animal sacrifices were temporarily covering sin? Or does Hebrews teach us that animal sacrifices were being done to cleanse the physical? It is my understanding that sin was always forgiven through Gods grace, through confession and repentance, as per 1Joh1:9 Yeshua ransomed us from the second death, by Him YHVH was able to deal with the consequences of our sin when He paid the ransom. With regard to substitutionary atonement and the idea that Yeshua suffered the consequence in our place, rather than Him ransoming us from the second death, if Yeshua was resurrected from the dead, then He did not suffer the second death in our place. If the consequence of our sin was dealt with by YHVH paying the ransom, where does substitutionary atonement fit in? I hope all that makes sense, and my questions make sense :)

[@rumblematttim5639]

@@nvdxn hey you there?

[@nvdxn]

So your understanding of the Ransom is that God pays the ransom to Himself?

[@johnlawson6851]

We got ourselves in a hole, we call up our dad to bail us out.

[@nvdxn]

@@johnlawson6851 which Bible verse says God pays it to Himself? I can find many verses whch tell us that YHVH pays the ransom, and I know which verses support the ransom being paid to ha-satan, am I missing verses which talk about God paying the ransom to Himself?

[@johnlawson6851]

@@nvdxn Please share them, I sincerely would like to see what you see. I personally see scripture saying that we are in debt to Yahweh.

[@johnlawson6851]

@@nvdxn I'm not trying to make you look wrong or anything I'm sincerely listening to your side would you mind sharing the verses that you're referencing that support Ransom

[@nvdxn]

Where does Mark 10:45 say the ransom was paid to YHVH?

[@nvdxn]

@@kingdomseekers1973 The way I read it, Mar 10:45 says Yeshua gave His life as a ransom, it doesnt say anything about who the ransom was given to.

[@nvdxn]

I am happy to, just might take a couple of days

[@nvdxn]

@@kingdomseekers1973 thanks

[@nvdxn]

@@kingdomseekers1973 thank you for your patience Part one All I have ever heard spoken of in Church is Penal Substitution, so I am very new to the Ransom view, which I originally heard of from watching a teaching by JP at TheWayBiblicalFellowhip on his ButcheredDoctrine playlist. JP is a teacher, I am not, if you are interested in getting to the truth then I highly reccomend His teaching on the atonement. So here are some verses which I believe demonstrate what the ransom was about; *The ransom/redemption is prophesied in the Scriptures, in Jeremiah the ransom/redemption is spoken of in the past tense using the prophetic perfect; Jer_31:11 For the LORD hath ransomed Jacob, and He redeems him from the hand of him that is stronger than he. *Yeshua redeemed/ransomed us; Luk_1:67-69 "Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: "Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people, And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David." Mat_20:28 "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." 1Ti_2:5-6 "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all" Rev_5:9-10 "And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." *Those who are ransomed from the second death are ransomed from Sheol, the first death. They will be part of the resurrection to life from Sheol (i.e. inherit eternal life), they won't be destroyed in the lake of fire; Psa_49:8-9 "For the redemption of their souls is costly, And it shall cease forever- That he should continue to live eternally, And not see the Pit." Psa_56:13 For You have delivered my soul from death. Have You not kept my feet from falling, That I may walk before God In the light of the living? Psa_86:13 " For great is Your mercy toward me, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol." *The second death is the consequence of our iniquity, it is the final destruction of our souls in the lake of fire; Mat_10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [ge-henna]." Eze_18:20 "The soul who sins shall die." Rev_20:13-15 "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." *'The soul who sins shall die' is 'the curse of the Law'; In Eze_33:8 we get more clarity on Eze_18:20. In Hebrew the word 'die' is repeated, so the verse literally says "When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you shall surely die die!' and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity" In Gen_3:4, the Hebrew literally says "then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die die". 'Die die' repeated like that in Gen_3:4 & Eze_33:8 is literally saying 'in dying you will die'. 'In dying you will die' is not dying the first death, everyone, including the righteous, will die the first death. 'In dying you will die' is the 'second death' that the wicked who 'die in their iniquity' will die. The 'wages of sin' is their souls being destroyed in the lake of fire, which is the 'curse of the Law'. Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death... Eze_18:20 The soul who sins shall die. Eze_33:8 When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you shall surely die!' *The serpent lied to Eve, by Adam & Eve eating the fruit Adam did bring about the consequence of their iniquity, the 'second death', contrary to what the serpent said, and all men have earnt the wages of sin because we all sin; Rom_5:12-14 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned- For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." Rom_3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" posted in two parts

[@nvdxn]

@@kingdomseekers1973 part two *David describes our soul being destroyed in the lake of fire as 'corruption' in Psa_16:10, Psa_49:9& Psa_103:4 The second death is also described in context as going to the 'pit" or going to 'the pit of corruption/destruction'' as in Psa_55:23, Job_33:24 &Psa_49:9. *The second death is the consequence of Adam's transgression; 1Co_15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." Rom_5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned" *Isa_53:6-8 The consequences of our iniquity is the second death, and by Yeshua's being cut of from the land of the living, YHVH struck down the consequences of our iniquity. *Yeshua bore our iniquities by ransoming us, He did not suffer the consequence of iniquity in our place, He did not suffer the second death which is what penal substitution teaches. Heb_4:15, Yeshua did not sin so His death made restitution for our souls, He ransomed us from the consequences of our iniquity, which is the destruction of our souls in the lake of fire, (aka 'the second death'), so that we could be resurrected to eternal life. Isa_53:10-11 JPS "Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand: Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear." Heb_9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many" *The ransom is paid by YHVH; Psa_49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah Hos_13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes." Lam_3:58 O Lord, You have pleaded the case for my soul; You have redeemed my life. *In the First Testament the 'second death' is called the power of the grave, in the Second Testament it is called 'the power of death' and 'the law of sin and death'; Rev_20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Hos_13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes." Psa_49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah Heb_2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, *We cannot pay the ransom and deliver ourselves from the second death, and we cannot give the ransom price to God to pay it for us; Psa_89:48 What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his life from the power of the grave? Selah Mat_16:26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? Psa_49:7-9 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him- For the redemption of their souls is costly, And it shall cease forever-That he should continue to live eternally, And not see the Pit. *The ransom was costly, it wasn't money or gold; Isa_52:3 For thus says the LORD: "You have sold yourselves for nothing, And you shall be redeemed without money." 1Pe_1:18-19 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. *Hos_13:14 says we will be ransomed from the power of the grave, so who holds 'the power of the grave', (aka 'the power of death') over us? Heb_2:14-15 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. *Because He was born of a woman 'the Power of Death', (aka 'the Second Death', or 'the law of sin and death'), had dominion over Yeshua; Rom_6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. *Yeshua was born of a woman so that He would be born 'under the Law of Sin and Death' so that He could ransom us who are also born 'under the law'; Gal_4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. *We are ransomed/redeemed from the 'hand of him that is stronger than' us; Jer_31:11 For the LORD hath ransomed Jacob, and He redeems him from the hand of him that is stronger than he. *Who is the 'hand of him who is stronger than us'? Mar_3:22-27 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, "He has Beelzebub," and, "By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons."So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: "How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end. No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house. So from what I understand, Yeshua called ha-satan the strong-man, so I can see why ha-satan would be called 'the one who is stronger than us' in Jer_31:11. And Heb_2:14-15 tells us that it was ha-satan who had the power of death. Therefore it seems logical to me that it is ha-satan who is the 'hand of him who is stronger than he' that the ransom was paid to, to ransom us from the power of death, which is separate to forgiveness of sins & atonement.

[@kurtnedap1717]

Are you One-God believer?

[@kurtnedap1717]

@@kingdomseekers1973 so we're same. Do you have a fb account?