The Rapture vs The Church Fathers w/ Stephen Johnson

[@ferrywijaya2557]

When a person in searching of the truth of Christ is saying "I'll follow where this leads to", we all know where they will end up: home.

[@DirtExtractor]

Kinda true but that person can not be blind & lead by the flesh. A true study & independant even in rhe flesh of the Roman religion will say it all. What grabbed me at the get go was the manipulation of history as to when the Roman religion was really instituted. When I hit the lies by them I looked deeper. I read of it's vicars of Christ who were considered GOD'S man that replaced the Holy Spirit, wow! the great evils, deviance, great sexual immorality, mass murder of true believers. It was a greasy, dirty ride down a rabbit hole that lead to a septic tank. So enlightening. Now, when I listen to Roman religious members justify & ignore it all I see Satan's work of his very own vatican drones

[@Pumpkinshire]

I’m leaving the Calvery Chapel cult now and I’m being tempted to run to the arms of the Catholic Church. I allways felt my Bible was a little bit light too growing up I wished I had more books in the Bible and I’m going through my catholic bible now

[@Selousscout]

Come home brother

[@BirdDogey1]

Consider the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. It’s historic without all the extras.

[@KittyM-]

Exceptionally thoughtful gentleman. I'm so heartened to hear of people who study diligently

[@blakehanson4683]

Dispensationalism has been the biggest tool thats drawn me to the catholic church. It was a thread I started pulling that began unwinding everything I understood about the church and scripture.

[@John3_16_]

Friendly neighborhood non-echo chamber Protestant here. Why should I seriously consider converting and am I currently saved if I love god with all my mind, heart and soul and love thy neighbor as I love myself. Is my faith alone in Jesus enough to save me?

[@blakehanson4683]

@John3_16_ I wasn't talking about salvation but of how the Bible is interpreted.

[@MorrisonJames]

Both Dispensationaliism and The Roman Catholic Church came hundreds of years after the true church. Neither are the true body of Christ. And both were started by men inspired by Satan.

[@cecemeyers6028]

@@John3_16_Goid post there. Now I’m just curious. So what does “faith in Jesus” mean? How is that manifest in your life? Does Jesus’s interaction with his 12 apostles at the Last Supper intrigue you?

[@flyswatter6470]

@@John3_16_ depends on what you mean by "saved." In some Protestant circles it mean that you have pronounced the words that make YOU the judge. Most Catholics believe that final salvation is decided by the actual judge, God. So, it can't really be guaranteed by someone here. Baptism "saves" us in the same way that crossing the Rea Sea saved the Israelites or the ark saved Noah. It guarantees that God has adopted us and will never abandon us. It doesn't guarantee that we, with our free will, won't abandon Him.

[@brandi8040]

The timing of this video is perfect. Just a few days ago, I was debating with a friend, because as I was reading the Bible, I noticed how the Rapture theory doesn't really mesh well with what the Bible teaches.

[@louiseyvette2261]

Can you elaborate on this please? I'm interested

[@PNH-sf4jz]

@@louiseyvette2261 Hi Louise. I think it may be difficult to elaborate on a statement that says something does not appear to exist, such as #brandi8040 stated a few days ago. However, I appreciate your question, which relates directly to the main topic of this discussion. As with Brandi and her friend, all participants, I beleive, need to come to the discussion with a mind open to considering all the views presented, but prepared to state their own reasons for views that they hold, and to challenge with courtesy and respect, the views of others who may think differently. Despite meeting, for couple of years, with a group of people who hold to the concept of the rapture, it is not a point on which we have had much discussion. Consequently, I am not very familiar with the arguments, for and against, that people may wish to offer to either side of the argument {Argument of the debating type, not the disagreement type.}

[@Antiguanian]

Why not look up info on tbe rapture your own self? I did. I read and read. Then i read up on how the pope changed the bible in more than one way. So believing that the Bible is key to knowing about Jesus i must draw a line there. Eirher Bible is true or a total lie.

[@Antiguanian]

So you make a statement that you in no way can support with and evidence.

[@luxither7354]

When did the Pope Change the Bible? Support that wacky statement.

[@mrsandmom5947]

It’s amazing how evangelicals believe in the rapture but can’t believe Mary was assumed into heaven

[@John3_16_]

Similar to a pre-trib rapture. There is literally zero corroborating evidence for Mary being born of a virgin, living a perfect/sinless life, or being “assumed into heaven”.

[@sjm9876]

Does the Catholic Church teach that Mary was born of a virgin? I thought she was just miraculously born without original sin? Maybe I am misunderstanding

[@John3_16_]

@@sjm9876 yes. Ah… I forgot the catholic dogma about “Mary’s perpetual virginity” 🤪👀

[@John3_16_]

@@crossvilleengineering1238 if it’s between listening to some rando on the internet, or Mike Winger/Gavin Ortlund (with sources)… I’m not picking you to get information from.

[@CatholicKit]

@@John3_16_Do you not think Christ would have prevented His mother from suffering from the ails of original sin? He is God, He had the power to intercede for her to the Father who made her. The Church does not teach that Mary came from a virgin birth, you are misinformed. The Church teaches the doctrine of the immaculate conception, that Mary’s mother and father conceived her with no lust in their hearts, and that she was conceived with perfect love, and through this God blessed her with freedom from original sin. Mary is the Mother of God, not the mother of the trinity, but you cannot deny that scripture states in Luke 1 “…And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”. Do you think Jesus would let His mother wither and decay? For her body to rot away? If you could make your mother live forever wouldn’t you do that? The denial of Marian doctrine comes from a weird place of hatred towards the Mother of the God-Man Jesus. It seems to suppose that Christ thought of His own mother as an incubator for Him. Christ loved His mother. He embodied the law perfectly and honored her as we are all called to honor our parents. At the Cross He tells John, “Behold your mother”. He clearly respected her and loved her, and thought John, arguably the most obedient apostle, would benefit from having a relationship with Mary. It makes no sense to bash Mary. Even if you aren’t Catholic, denying that she is the Mother of God is foolish.

[@Forester-]

Invented by John Nelson Darby in the 19th century and popularized in the US by the Schofield Reference Bible in the early 20th. Same guy who gave us Dispensationalism.

[@ritastojanvic9344]

There was also a Margaret MacDonald who was speaking in tongues. According to Wikipedia- Dave MacPherson argued that the source for Darby’s rapture was from a vision Margaret McDonald had concerning end times. I had never heard of the raptors until Hal Lindsey’s books

[@Tomster22]

It's amazing how many Catholics have been "Sucked up into" (pun intended) the Rapture heresy.

[@psychedelicdivinity2872]

Nice

[@bvmslave1288]

is there a part 2? this us really good. thank you for your honesty. you are Catholic now, right? God bless you🙏🙏

[@GustavoAndresHerrera]

the link to the full episode is in the description

[@patrickmooney4135]

Fascinating discussion.

[@IsaiahINRI]

I remember when I first started reading the Bible, having been raised in a rapture believing evangelical family, and expecting to find it. I remember reading through the New Testament and seeing nothing for it and then I was like "well, it's probably in Revelation." And when I got to Revelation I found absolutely no mention of it. I was really surprised because I had heard it talked about my whole life as if it was as plainly in Scripture as the Second Coming but there was absolutely nothing that talked about it. Literally that one passage in Thessalonians is the only possible passage in the Bible about it, and even that is flimsy at best. Definitely helped open my eyes to the lies I was raised on in regards to my faith.

[@peggyfujawa5355]

Do we believe we are being lied to or that people just believe errors that they received? The debate about the rapture is what sent me back to the Catholic Church, but I don’t think the people in my Bible Study were lying to each other, just debating erroneous information passed on be previous generations.

[@rickhall517930]

One of the most damaging heresies in Christianity

[@Patto2276]

Damaging how?

[@John3_16_]

If you think that a pre-trib rapture is “one of the most damaging heresies in Christianity”, it begs the question about the rest of your beliefs 🤪👀

[@jndvs95]

Yeah, a lot of Christians lost their lives for believing in a pretrib rapture thanks to the Catholic Church

[@MorrisonJames]

Wouldn’t say it’s damaging. It’s pure deception. It is Satans gospel and Satans false ‘jesus’ The pre tribulation rapture jesus’ is actually the antichrist. Yeshua Jesus Christ warned of the multitude of Christian elect who will be deceived by the coming false jesus and the powerful delusion. Matthew 24: 23-25

[@Thomas-dw1nb]

​@jndvs95 huh?

[@believewithyourheart5627]

I could never find the rapture in scripture either ✝️

[@MorrisonJames]

It’s detailed in the bible exact and in truth. 1 Thessalonians 4 - read it.

[@Sanity1234]

Funny that the Church never taught or believed it throughout its history. Some random Scottish guy comes along and all of a sudden comes up with that interpretation. You might as well believe John Smith found the golden tablets for the Book of Mormon.@@MorrisonJames

[@parsleyfarm328]

@@Sanity1234 Is this fact?

[@hypercubed2]

@@MorrisonJames I believe that’s simply referring to the day Jesus returns

[@Christo-Cola]

@@Sanity1234 Quotes from Ephraim the Syrian one of the Church Fathers in the 300’sAD: “For the elect shall be gathered prior to the tribulation, so they shall not see the confusion and the great tribulation coming upon the unrighteous world.”-Sermon on Repentance and Judgment and the Separation of the Soul From the Body ”The righteous ... shall be seized up in the clouds to meet him. While those who are lazy and timid like me shall remain on earth trembling.”-On the Second Coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ “Again, when we see the saints in glory flying off in light in the clouds of the air to meet Christ, the king of glory, but see ourselves in the great tribulation, who shall be able to bear that shame and terrible reproach?”- On the Fathers Who Have Completed Their Course

[@R.C.425]

Nice ❤ Thank you

[@marysisak2359]

As others have mentioned, the timing of this presentation is ironic. I had run into a previous colleague who is a very enthusiastic evangelical. I am Catholic. At the end of the discussion, we touched on the fact that we both believe that the end times are near. Her last comment as we parted was not to forget to leave the toilet seat up for my dogs. I thought, did I hear that correctly? That is when I realized she was talking about the rapture. Surprise she thought a Catholic would be raptured.

[@littleboots9800]

Remember at the height of the "left behind" madness there were companies that you could pay that would promise to look after your pets if you were raptured?😂 I don't think feeding my pets would be top on their list of priorities what with all the wars and plagues and famines. Lol. Why would I even trust them to keep their word if they were one of the unsaved?? So many questions, so many terrible films.

[@sanguiniusse434]

​@littleboots9800 Even when I was a Protestant who believed in the rapture, I found those services appalling. How could you be more concerned with the fate of your pets then a poor unbelieving soul "left behind"? It's the "Christian" equivalent of ultra-orthodox jews who call over gentile neighbors to do chores for them on Saturday. Totally exploitative and missing the forest for a tree that isn't even there

[@Christo-Cola]

Quotes from Ephraim the Syrian one of the Church Fathers in the 300’sAD: “For the elect shall be gathered prior to the tribulation, so they shall not see the confusion and the great tribulation coming upon the unrighteous world.”-Sermon on Repentance and Judgment and the Separation of the Soul From the Body ”The righteous ... shall be seized up in the clouds to meet him. While those who are lazy and timid like me shall remain on earth trembling.”-On the Second Coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ “Again, when we see the saints in glory flying off in light in the clouds of the air to meet Christ, the king of glory, but see ourselves in the great tribulation, who shall be able to bear that shame and terrible reproach?”- On the Fathers Who Have Completed Their Course

[@vincewarde]

I'm a Free Methodist minister who graduated from Liberty. A couple of points: 1) I do not hold to a pre-tribulation rapture. Clearly, all of us believe that there will be a rapture - the question is WHEN??? The answer, from both Scripture AND church tradition (which we hold to be of value) is WHEN CHRIST RETURNS after the tribulation. If no one ever saw this truth in Scripture prior to the 1700s, one must think that it simply isn't there - and indeed this is the case. Please understand that while this doctrine is indeed popular with the laity in evangelical circles, in my observation the vast majority of evangelical clergy do not hold this view. 2) I am so disappointed with Stephen's experience at liberty. In my experience NOT ONE of my professors was anti-Catholic. In church history, we spent most of our time studying the Catholic Church - and while we have differences, we spent a great deal of time on the history we hold in common - including the Church Fathers. Additionally, while you technically could call Liberty a Calvinist school (I'm not Calvinist, but Wesleyan - obviously) they don't hold to the 5 point Calvinism that so often devolves into absurd anti-Catholic hostility. As someone who is not Calvinist - but holds views much closer to Catholicism on the matter of Salvation and Election, I thought that my views we taught quite fairly. Matt, thanks for all the work you do. Never forget that we all worship the same Jesus, we all (hopefully) are trying, by His Grace, to walk in obedience. I love the way you discuss issues with evangelicals. Let's all never forget that many of us will spend eternity together..... Grace and Peace, Rev. R. Vincent Warde

[@vincewarde]

@@crossvilleengineering1238 Always wonderful to converse with an Anglican brother in Christ! My 6th Great Grandfather was an Anglican Priest who served as pastor of the the parish church of St. Giles, Badger, Shropshire, England. My daughter, who is also ordained was actually able to visit the church! Now, as to the Rapture - I see your point and agree with it. I do not hold, nor would I say that all Christians hold, to the Rapture as you describe it. That said, we cannot simply ignore 1 Thess 4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." At Christ's return (not before) the believers who remain will be "caught up" to meet Christ. This is the Rapture, it is real, The error is the idea that it will happen BEFORE the tribulation....

[@John3_16_]

Well said Rev. Warde!

[@chriscalhoun380]

⁠@@crossvilleengineering1238 “Rapture” comes from the Latin translation for the Greek word we read as “caught up”. It’s fair for Rev Warde to say that all Christians believe this at minimum. The word “rapture” has become synonymous in American evangelical circles with the secret return idea that is pervasive among American dispensationalists, but that’s not what the word means or how it has been used historically. @vincewarde is correct here.

[@vincewarde]

@@chriscalhoun380 Thx. I have been trying to reply, but KZbin keeps deleting my posts!

[@vincewarde]

@@crossvilleengineering1238 I indeed believe that the verse in question does indeed describe Christ's visible and triumphant return!

[@Jruuuuu]

Yes Scottish pastor and it spread through DL Moody

[@southbug27]

I feel like the rapture theology fits nicely with the prosperity gospel theology. Both are a very modern American Christianity without the cross, without the sacrifices. It’s all very much an Oprah Winfrey & her New Age religious buddies type of Christianity; she thinks she’s a billionaire because she wanted to be one & her & God (the universe) made it happen. The rapture very much has a middle finger smugness to atheists, people of other religions, Catholics, & even other Protestants who don’t agree with them on the rapture & other things. I’m a Protestant who went to a Christian elementary school of one denomination, belonged to another denomination, went to Vacation Bible Schools & youth group meetings & trips with friends & neighbors in other denominations, & went to other denominations with close relatives who also would babysit me, but I never heard of the rapture until the mid 90s, I think. I know the history of it with Darby to America & to modern times, & except for extreme independent Baptist circles & then Pentecostal ones with the Late, Great Planet in the 1970s, it really didn’t exist anywhere else until the Left Behind novels of the 1980s & the Kirk Cameron movies of the 1990s. I can’t understand how people are so adamant about it’s truth when it’s only been a thing for 30-40 years. It’s really a puzzle for me.

[@snackpup]

kzbin.infoj-DHRzBfBMA?si=RZqEg3H8vmSjVW0h

[@littleboots9800]

And even Kirk Cameron doesn't believe in it either apparently 😂

[@JoeL-gl5ie]

It's not a heresy. It may not happen, but it's not a basic tenant of Christianty. It is not salvation dependent.

[@lornadoone8887]

I think Wheaton College in IL used to require students and faculty to hold pre-trib Rapture position. A lot of their grads went on to Dallas Theological Seminary. I do not see this specific teaching as part of their current Statement of Faith.

[@harpazzo777]

I would love to see an actual DEBATE on the subject, this is a one side argument! If when Jesus returns, He returns WITH THE ENTIRE body of Christ, the Bride, the Lambs Wife, GLORIFIED (Revelation 19) AFTER THE MARRIAGE FEAST, At some point prior to Jesus return to earth those living and trusting in Jesus (Christians)had to be taken to meet the dead in Christ in the clouds, that is what we protestants call the rapture

[@KevinPublic]

For the sake of full transparency, many Protestants don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the bride, either. And... Liberty University is well known throughout the Protestant faith as being more than a little off-center, theology-wise.

[@nuggetoftruth-ericking7489]

I have in my lectures shown how the early church believed that the Christian Church would be "caught up first". Watch the KZbin talk titled: "The Rapture Question Answered - By Eric W. King". This answers the question completely.

[@Guypt25]

It doesn’t. The theory is.just another hallucination from insane Pentecostals. I hope u burst that bubble man. Time to grow up.

[@BradleyKimmes]

There is no such thing as "the Rapture". It is not in the Bible and God warns those who teach His People to fly. Ezekiel 13:20 Also, Isaiah 52:12 "For ye shall not go out with haste nor go by flight; for the Lord will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your reward". Do not be fooled by anyone talking of a rapture it is false teaching. Rapture theory began in 1830 and has been promoted by false teachers ever since. If the rapture were true it would be mentioned in Revelation, Matthew 24, and Mark 13 and there is no mention of it because it's a lie.

[@andreastarks2780]

It’s not until the end of time it’s until the end of the age, old covenant age of the temple economy and sacrifice.

[@nunyobidnezz707]

If you didnt read the Left Behind series you don't have an educated opinion on eschatology. I would also point you towards the film version starring the Reverend Nicolas Cage

[@erravi]

😂😂😂😂

[@ayobithedark2772]

🤦😂

[@1991jj]

What about the claim that Iraneus and Justin Martyr believed in rapture??

[@SaltAndLight1027]

Got some guys in my town spewing the “council of nicea was when Constantine put in pagan influences “ and love finding more ways to show them how wrong they are

[@cometblazt]

Great conversation brothers thank you

[@louiseyvette2261]

The Rapture is bonkers! Lol

[@MorrisonJames]

No it’s not bonkers. It’s detailed in the bible exact and in truth. 1 Thessalonians 4 - read it.

[@louiseyvette2261]

@@MorrisonJames I have read it.

[@MorrisonJames]

@@louiseyvette2261 Verse 16 and 17 is the catching up of left alive faithful at the very end of this earths age. At the return of The King. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[@louiseyvette2261]

@@MorrisonJames ok, but the actual "doctrine" of the rapture isn't just as scripture has described. Protestants can't even agree on when it will happen. It's the theory that's bonkers, not scripture

[@JJSMKY]

@@MorrisonJameswhen one uses a theological view that supports it then apparently it is there. However, when one uses the correct theology will see that it was nothing but a publicity stunt to garner fear and money.

[@normmcinnis4102]

It all hinges on which text on is relying on.

[@steelmongoose4956]

Although Dispensationalism/Rapture doesn’t make any sense, it does make for some entertaining narratives. Who doesn’t want to imagine evil people waking up some morning to find their unfashionable Christian neighbors suddenly and inexplicably gone? Unfortunately, it’s not that easy. Christ’s followers have a mandate to keep spreading His faith, not turtling up and waiting for the world to end. Let’s get to work so no one is (heh) Left Behind.

[@flyswatter6470]

I love to watch some of the end-times speculation sites. It is hilarity at it's greatest. I'm still waiting to see anyone in their audience question these charlatans sources.

[@CountCulture27]

Asks a question on the Rapture. Catholic-Let me look on Wikipedia. First of all, in against Heresies by Irenaes he speaks of it. In Against Heresies 5.29.1 he says, “And therefore, in the end when the Church is suddenly caught up from this, it is said, «There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For a Catholic to believe in Marian doctrine where there is less Biblical evidence than a Rapture, which Thessalonians 4 clearly shows, is a bit strange to me.

[@IlovetheTruth]

I disagree with the idea of a rapture. But how is it a heresy?

[@flyswatter6470]

It teaches that you don't need death and resurrection, like Paul promised based on Jesus actual resurrection.

[@IlovetheTruth]

@@flyswatter6470 Elijah and Enoch didn't experience death. Are they heretics as well?

[@flyswatter6470]

@@IlovetheTruth NO. they didn't teach anybody that they were above death. Darby started the fad of telling EVERY generation that they are the generation that will be raptured. How many generations were he and his students wrong? What's the definition of a false prophet? Doesn't it have something to do with false prophesy?

[@watchwomanofthedragon8376]

Don’t y’all look up like he says to. Free channel. Wake up 👀 up. ❤️⚔️

[@chronic_daydreamer]

I love seeing false teachings like the Rapture exposed. The Bible teaches that there will be TWO resurrections. The resurrection of those to heaven who will rule with Jesus during the Millennium, and those who will be raised to life on earth who will be ruled over and raised to the pre-Edenic perfection. Philippians 3:10, 11; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; and crucially Revelation 20:4-10. Riddle me this: if there is a group who goes to Heaven to rule with Jesus for the Thousand Years, but then Satan is released to test the NATIONS after those Thousand Years, then who are the nations? Those are the second group resurrected to life on earth along with those who survive the Tribulation. The Rapture implies there will only be one group raised to eternal life in Heaven while all others on earth die. This clearly makes no sense in line with God’s purpose. To be Kings in Heaven ruling with Jesus dictates that they are raised for a purpose, and that is to rule over those saved who are given the earth to inherit. Thanks for helping expose the Rapture lie.

[@zachpatterson434]

Everyone believes in a rapture, the disagreement is it's timing.

[@flyswatter6470]

No we don't. We believe in taking up our cross and following Jesus through death and resurrection.

[@zachpatterson434]

@@flyswatter6470 Rapturo is a Latin translation of the Greek word Harpazo which means "caught up." Its in 1 Thes 4:17. The traditional view is we are raptured upon the second coming. The pre tribulation rapture is the novel dispensational idea.

[@BirdDogey1]

Rapture is very popular with American Evangelicals. It isn’t considered valid anywhere else or by most anyone else.

[@Guypt25]

Are u smoking something!? It is all over Latina America, Africa, Asia en parts of Europe. Not only evangelicals but particularly the insane Pentecostals. 👊

[@normmcinnis4102]

Daniel 12:4,9 the 'church fathers' would not have been aware of a Rapture.

[@Guypt25]

First of all, you never studied the CHURCH FATHERS, otherwise you would put a moronic quote upon it. You are just another brainwashed evangelical with your fanatical sect.

[@zita-lein]

At the Rapture, can I have your car? Not kidding. 😅

[@glennlanham6309]

its' not even 200 years old theory

[@gustavoserrano4877]

I attend a calvary chapel and my pastor has never made a reference to it.. though I am familiar with that end time's view.....I don't agree with it.. now for someone to claim that all the calvary chapel ministries teaches it would be wrong...now there is some good stuff that calvary chapel does that I believe other denomination would benefit from...Plus Jesus said to us to focus on making disciples and baptizing them....!!!!!!

[@vincewarde]

As an evangelical pastor in another denomination, the fact that he's not stressing this does not surprise me. In my denomination we are free to hold any position and at least 2/3 of our clergy do not hold to a pretribulation rapture.

[@John_Six]

Margaret MacDonald invented it and John Darby copied her.

[@michaelnash5124]

Crap. Another strike against the rapture

[@austromyrtus]

“Rapture” is like “trimity” - the word is not found in the bible, but it is the name of a concept based on scriptures. I would be interested to hear how Catholics explain Matthew 24:39-41 “They didn’t know anything was happening until the flood came and swept them all away. This is how it will be when the Son of man appears. Two men will be in the same field, but only one will be taken. The other will be left. Two women will be grinding grain, but only one will be taken. The other will be left”. Forget church fathers. They were not always right. When you read this, what does it suggest?

[@ItcHSniping]

Maybe this might help answer your question: in the time of Noah, who were the ones that were eating and drinking before being swept away by the flood? Now re-read Matthew 24 and see if the Rapture theory makes any sense with Jesus' logic here. Don't forget that most Church fathers read these scriptures in the original native language since that was their mother tongue.

[@agnesbarber4035]

Also, they were told by Noah that there was a flood coming (why are you buildingthis ark?)...just didn't believe him.

[@flyswatter6470]

Here's how we explain it. The Jews in Jerusalem were not listening to the warnings of the apostles about the signs leading up to the end of the Mosaic age. The Christians had it drilled into them for 40 years. So, when the Jews least expected it, their city, their temple, their priesthood and their lives were gone in a flash. The Christians escaped Jerusalem when they saw the signs that Jesus told them to watch for.

[@austromyrtus]

@@flyswatter6470 thank you.

[@lornadoone8887]

The ones “taken”, given the OT illustration, are taken away in judgment. The ones left behind are those spared. This is the opposite of the Pretrib Rapure rationale.

[@NataliaoRI]

When i was moving to the states from a very chill country with regards to religion i was warned by everyone to be careful about the cults and fundamentalists over there. They come over to our small county and impose their views with their missionary trips. We are q very loving a accepting country and after being in the states for decades i see whst they mean. There are a lot of very nice people here who go to these churches but when i tried attending a few i saw very quickly how removed they were from what jesus represents. It's very backwards in the states. You have the republican party who seemingly are the religious party but jesus represents nothing they are for. Bernie sanders had so many similarities (a jewish man who always fought for everyones rights, wants to help the most vunerable, and give healthcare to all and does not like the rich getting everything.) And he was vilanized by the right as a radical. 😂 This place is kind of different...

[@williamstoryiii9252]

On this matter there is some debate.

[@AS-np3yq]

It is such a silly concept...

[@randyhall7650]

I can't see how the word "Catholic", as used in the early church has anything to do with the current institution of the Catholic Church. The word simply meant universal, referring to the church as a whole. No where in the new testament do I see the type of ritual, structure, and sacraments that the current Catholic Church practices.

[@HolyFamilyHermit]

You aren't looking hard enough. All aspects of the True Church are found in Sacred Scripture

[@rachelelizabeth00]

The fact that catholic means universal is not the reason why the Catholic church is Christ's Church. I really suggest digging deep into catholic apologetics, Peter's papacy and the succession of the Pope's.

[@J-PLeigh8409]

You need to look just a bit better & maybe put down the Protest lens first....then check out the teachings & practices of the early church...they are Catholic & you won't find Modern Protestantism in either

[@RenegadeCatholic]

When Ignatius, apostle of John, first used the term "katholikos" in his letter to the Smyrneans, he was referring specifically to a visible and hierarchical church with a shared yet single communion. So, going back to the very first church fathers who KNEW the apostles, they used that term to refer to a specific institution.

[@DrChaunceyBlevins]

Trace the papacy.

[@xrendezv0usx]

I grew up in a calvary chapel and I have to say that I also disagree with their conclusions about rapture. They also have a poor understanding of Communion. Besides that are a very Bible reading and Jesus loving church

[@littleboots9800]

Mike Winger is Calvary Chapel and I believe he does not believe it either. He diplomatically uses words like "I'm not convinced," and "I want to study it more before pronouncing publicly on it," but I think it's obvious he doesn't from other things he's said.

[@Frank-st6gd]

Proof of A Pre trib Rapture. Pay Attention to the Cloud and Clouds Jesus appears in and With. Acts chapter 1 verses 9 10 11 Cloud. In Red Luke chapter 21 verses 27 and 28 Jesus is coming in A Cloud the Rapture. In Revelation chapter 1 verse 7 Jesus is coming With the Clouds when he comes back to the Mt of Olive the second coming KJV.

[@Patto2276]

I don't really care about the Rapture one way or the other, but "...certainly not founded in the Church fathers" kinda pissed me off. My faith is based on God and Jesus. I don't care what some Scottish Pastor said OR "the Church fathers."

[@flyswatter6470]

Do you know who the church fathers are? They are the Christians of the first few centuries. They interpreted the writings and teachings like the authors of the bible intended. They weren't building a career or empire on novel interpretations that promise things like heaven without death.

[@PhunkMaster-VivatChristusRex]

Who do you think assembled, curated and canonized the Bible? Bibles don't just grow on trees...

[@Sanity1234]

Yet you trust them on helping to compile Scripture itself. Odd thinking you've got there.

[@Joelthinker]

This is like owning a F150 truck, and then saying you couldn't give a hoot about Henry Ford

[@andreaarse5161]

Many practices in catholicism have no basis in scripture ,complete overchange required from top down ,catho Ics read your bibles the holy spirit wiill open your eyes ,he is the best teacher

[@sanguiniusse434]

Reading the bible made me catholic.

[@frekigeri4317]

The Holy Spirt is the best teacher, it made me Catholic