The REAL Problem with Casual Mode

[@PartyPugTV]

Play WARTHUNDER today! Use my link to get a bonus pack full of goodies that includes vehicles and boosters: playwt.link/partypugtv

[@JoeyCheerio]

get the bag brah

[@mrman9262]

warthunder? more like pornthunder

[@CashuNutt]

she quickly plays with me casually till I queue

[@Linkman8912]

REAL

[@randomyoutuber4189]

🚫🚫🚫

[@krislovespies]

She comp my titive till I meet your match

[@YaboiFoxTale]

Qanon lit usually wiuuuuuqth slapping z\\\\\\£%¢|

[@RubberDuckyManThing]

"this might be one of the worst chokes in valve history" you're gonna have a stroke when you play frostcliff and frostwatch

[@plutoniumrocks]

Removing Goldrush (The exact origin point for the Payload game mode, which has become a staple of hero shooters) before Venice, Wutville, or any other holiday reskins of existing maps is insane.

[@danielsurvivor1372]

I think he didn't mention Wutville because it's not in regular map rotation hence it's not there. As for Venice, yes, looks nice, but TF2 artstyle breaking

[@cube69420]

>"The map pool is too bloated!" >Removes less maps than we get in a single update

[@PartyPugTV]

31:47

[@chippedgoat]

@@PartyPugTV you still did not really cull that many maps IMO. even with all your cuts there are still far too many

[@PartyPugTV]

@chippedgoat I agree honest! That's where I'd like you to offer your own opinions. I wanted this to be a start of a larger discussion not just the be all end of all if that makes sense?

[@chippedgoat]

@@PartyPugTV I see! Well then I pose a question to you then, if you were to cut all but 30 of tf2 a maps which ones would you keep? (And this goes for anyone else who reads this)

[@pixavier9746]

@@chippedgoat Na thank you, 30 maps is way too low, I rather go play community servers. But personally, I would remove all Passtime and Mannpower maps, VSH could also go, they were a fun novelty that not so much people play in casual anymore, in fact I would remove the entire Misc section, also remove a couple of bad maps like turbine and junction* (edited cause I put other name there), and that's basically it... Well, with Mannpower, Misc and Passtime gone I would finish to remove the entire alternative gamemodes tab that is more of a death sentence for any map that ends up there than anything else (aside from hightower), and I would also add Player destruction as its own gamemode separated from the already gone Misc category, cause its the only gamemode in that categoery with enough maps, resemblance to your normal TF2 modes and good reception for the playerbase to be part of the main pool.

[@forgottensoul6678]

5:10 You literally ignored the second upper path that the blue team is ENCOURAGED to take in order to put more pressure on the red team. You also could've talked about the vent up there that lets blue flank around the back half of red's defenses. As a result, the idea of this choke point is that red needs to split their attention down two routes to prevent themselves from getting overwhelmed. You unintentionally showed a good example of a chokepoint rather than a bad example.

[@PartyPugTV]

i didn't ignore it, i couldn't fit in on my screen. It actually makes the map worse since on both sides you're playing with half a team

[@forgottensoul6678]

@@PartyPugTV Next you are going to tell me CP steel is bad for doing the exact same thing.

[@disappointedcucumber]

​@@forgottensoul6678 Even with the upper path, it still feels too easy to defend. The defending team is perfectly capable of defending both routes simultaneously since they're so close to each other.

[@cooleecoolee9504]

​@@PartyPugTVYou also forgot the vents that lead to a small room that also leads to the back of the point

[@dumbvillage9253]

The issue is that BLU team needs to coordinate a perfect uber push, meanwhile the 7 human turtles need to have watched a few Uncle Dane tutorials to perfectly work together. This map can only work in competitive. good luck organizing a pub team to push all at once, and take advantage of the Uber. It just won't happen.

[@Kewertate]

In all respect I like open fortress too but the game mode removes half of tf2, and like you said the animations are iffy. I don't think it would work.

[@PartyPugTV]

yeah i'd agree with that, I think the concept COULD work in an a theortical "Arcade Mode" only if it was more polished tho

[@yeehaw8834]

I dunno what's worse. Being the guy who likes Mercenary Park last or being the frag in that one Open Fortress clip.

[@VortexF]

Me who plays dustbowl religiously:

[@алексейЦыплёнков-ф6о]

@@VortexF sometimes you just want to turn your brain off and play the game.

[@PathForger_]

An informative video. Here are a couple solutions (aside from a community server). 1 - Agreed that classifying any mode as 'alternative' consigns it to being unlikely to be played. It is better to combine the lists of both normal casual and alternative modes with the normal casual modes auto-selected as default, and to have the game 'remember' a player's choices for queuing, rather than requiring the player to reselect every time that the game is booted. 2 - You make a fair point on maps - but rather than eliminating maps, might it not be decent to reduce their odds of showing up? Such that maps like Junction become less and less likely to show up, and when they do they'll be better tolerated because they are so unusual.

[@II--II]

Seeing Reckoner on the “maps that needs to be removed” section makes my 6s blood boil.

[@dumbvillage9253]

TF2 would benefit so fucking much from a "map pool memory" feature. The average player puts more "treadmill work" than Valve, by being forced to weed out all the horrible maps out of their pool every single time they boot up the game. I think it's ridiculous

[@danielsurvivor1372]

TF is map pool memory feature? 💀

[@zythe_]

Hello, i hope you'd like to discuss some issues i have with this video. As a mapper myself, the 3 points you outlined in the beginning are, fine. I get tired of people complaining about chokes a lot, if people made maps with no choke-points blue would roll every time and that's not any fun, strategic holding positions are key and you correctly covered that, but even then, i don't think maps with worse chokes like merc park, hoodoo or gold-rush etc deserve to be removed because of it, and speaking of which... ______ 17:46 - Removing maps, for tf2, would be an INSANELY bad precedent to set for content added to the game. No map has ever been removed from the game (by removed i mean removed from the files, all the arena maps, cactus canyon and asteroid are still there and playable if you wanna load em up), and i don't think any of them should be, your removals are charged by personal preference i get that, but for official tf2 those removals would send shock-waves through the community, valve is right to keep all the maps in the game, and maps like junction and turbine serve their place in the pool because every player has unique preferences, and removing either of those maps or god forbid gold-rush would make a lot of people start riots, saying turbine is "beloved by few" is quite the ignorant way to look at it imo. Bloat should probably be addressed by other means than removing content, we know how CS2 players liked that, and is more of an issue of overhauling the UI and making some more categories, but not too many so we dont end up with category bloat too. Arcade mode is an idea ive maybe come around on but i dont want it to serve as a graveyard like misc or as an excuse to add more weird stuff... ______ 14:03 - tf2 map-makers make a percentage of all key-sales in a case like all other creators, map stamps are a bonus on top, so mappers make just as much, if not more than anyone else, i can verify this as i have credits on 3 maps in the game (Krampus, Selbyen, and Coal Pit). I'm baffled that this piece of misinformation is still being spread to this day, and that the notion that all mappers are poor beggars is still so prevalent, and it makes me so irrationally frustrated, so I'm sorry if this bit is a bit strongly worded. I do wanna specify, I'm not arguing that these people are some evil group of mobsters flipping tf2 game-modes for profit, they're obviously not, most people i know don't do it for a profit incentive, but i do also know a lot of people that DO do that, so, its a 50/50, even then, i don't think that should be seen as evil, unless the content is very obviously low effort. ______ 8:15 - oh boy, well, ill go through each game-mode in the order you mentioned them, generally, I'm more than open to having more game-modes be accepted to tf2, its just that, the delicate balance involved with creating one, hasn't been gotten all that right... and also wanna specify, for community servers? anythings fair game! community servers have always been a melting pot for all kinds of non tf2 insane ideas and copyright infringement heaven so, i also don't think "what the community version used to be like" should be presented as an argument even though i do agree that the ones we did get in the game were improvements. Also tangentially related, i am so sad that full on game-modes are the only thing that ever gets talked about instead of maps like monkeynaut (biased) that use vscirpt to add unique gimmicks to NORMAL game-modes like ctf. Slime, Perks, and other maps are great examples of what unique stuff you can do without having to make an entirely new thing and its such a shame they're never actually put into the spotlight... ZOMBIE INFECTION - I do agree that ZI is a bit over hated, i personally don't think its my cup of tea but does that mean id want it removed? hell no, i think for the concept, its actually pretty well designed. It holds true of good design philosophy which is to not make arbitrary balance changes to the mercs Mannpower style so you dont even know what does what anymore, all the balancing is done on the zombie side, the new thing, which is excellent imo! while i do think it could do some stuff better and i dont think ill play it any time soon, the only real sin it kinda commits is not having a secondary, non skill based objective (ill go over this in the gungame section again) like arena does, a control point to prevent camping, even then idk how well it could be implemented so, for now i think its mostly fine. VERSUS SAXTON HALE - Oh well, the opposite of what was mentioned above, VSH commits the sin of arbitrary Mannpower style class balancing, i personally think no official tf2 gamemode should have this, Mannpower being the prime example of what not to do, but, i do thing VSH is fun! does that excuse its position? not reeeeally? i think VSH has a soft spot for a lot of people so honestly I'm willing to just give it the pass, my own enjoyment aside, i still don't like it as much as normal tf2, but i can see why some people think its a strong deviation, VSH thankfully has a stalemate breaking, non- skill based objective in form of the point that unlocks after a while so at least there's that! PROP HUNT - this is the one that started it all, and i think for good reason. PH plays nothing like tf2 which is why it should be immediately ruled off as a consideration for tf2, one team playing as boxes sliding across the floor while one team shoots walls for 10 minutes just is not what i think of when i think of tf2, not to mention, the attempt to give props class specific abilities falls flat on its face considering, since they're supposed to be HIDING as a prop where you cant tell what CLASS they're playing completely goes against tf2s core design, and this isn't something you can make work really, but if every props the same class selection doesn't matter, so i feel like that was the only reason it was added is to make it "casual compatible". There's a reason the original PH was only scouts vs pyros, but not being allowed to choose a class would make it non-casual-compatible TM so cant have that.I think the very obvious marketing push made a lot of people even more angry than they would have been, prop-hunt also commits the sin of arbitrary class balance, and low gravity for some reason? and this arbitrary balancing doesn't even address the core issue of medics negating the whole downside of taking damage when shooting a non blue player though healing, and engies dispenser. Over all, i think its just objectively poorly designed, and even if these issues were all somehow fixed, i think the core concept just does not fit tf2 and, if anything as you said, would work much better as a halloween end of round minigame! GUN GAME - Ive played this game-mode a lot on TF2Ms play-testing servers and every time i groan, as someone who's played Open Fortress and enjoys it a lot, Gun Game (and by extension Death Match), does really just feel like a janky, awkward version shoved into tf2 for no reason, the standalone project OF is *right there* man, its fine, and works better as a standalone game because of the massive amount of engine changes needed to make it work properly. All of that isn't even mentioning that yes, shoving another game into tf2 results in the game-mode just feeling like another game entirely, and i don't think the dev, lizard of oz (the other open fortress devs DID NOT ACTUALLY WORK ON THE GAME-MODE AND ARE ONLY CREDITED FOR ASSETS), can or wants to do anything to change this. (if this sound needlessly rude, its because I've talked to him a lot during development and hes never taken any of these points to heart, so it is emotionally charged...). GG can be entirely written off as a game-mode for tf2 because, there's no teams, and there are no classes, i think it doesn't need explaining why this is an issue. And of course, the fact that the entire gamemode being team-less also means its objective is entirely skill based and focused on killing other players to win, which no tf2 game-mode does (pd still requires you to pick up the dropped points and bring them to a capture zone, a non directly skill based objective), so by having a game-mode that entirely focuses on an individual, where did the Team in Team Fortress go? The maps made themselves are good yes, but they'd just work so much better if they were just added to OF... and some of the mappers did say they were planning on that so, idk what the point really is. Over all, i think the base concept of the game-mode, once again just doesn't work, because it is quite literally another game entirely. ______ Wah Wah mucho texto i know, but please don't just write off this comment as angry uninformed rambling, some of this definitely comes from an emotionally charged place and its because i think discussions like this are genuinely really important, and shouldn't be written off as jokes, id love to hear what you have to say about this stuff and maybe you could even correct some of the misinfo in a followup if that happens. At the end of the day i do want this to be a positive conversation because this topic is genuinely really hotly debated for good reason; bloat, the appropriateness of gamemodes, etc... All of this mentioned above is my personal opinion approached from a game design perspective and generally i think just cuz its fun doesn't mean it should be official, community servers will always be there for you, but its why its worth discussing, because if everyone agreed on everything all the time the world would be very boring. NOTE: this comment may be edited for further/improved info.

[@mr.teobruh977]

Mhhh... Yeah indeed, thats mucho texto

[@The_Renegade939]

100% agree I play TF2 to play TF2. (Shocker)

[@lm9029]

@zythe_ Agree that no map should be removed. Thats why i was never hyped for any operation in CSGO since whats the point bothering to learn a new map if you cant keep playing it? (I swear if they kill all community servers and workshop maps by also porting TF2 to the blinding Source 2 engine i will stop playing the game entirely) However maps being put on a rotation, in a featured tab or having a random daily contract on them would also help alot from players being stuck in their comfort zone. (I hate 2fort but only play 2fort since then i wont have to wait long to join a game and it wont matter if i get autobalanced) While i do think maps shoulnt be removed (it woulnt be fair to the one player somewhere who enjoys Junction) there are also plenty of "duplicate" maps that just take up space. Instead of having many versions of the same map in different gamemodes (Sawmill in koth or ctf for instance) all maps should have the multi gamemode support like in csgo and l4d2. If it got backported to TF2 it would mean we could have one of each map acoss different gamemodes. It would help saving space while also increasing voriety. ---- Map stamps. Yes you can make money from maps by selling stamps (i have bought one for Pl_Frontier and regretably...Turbine) but is it really that profitable when you can just make a war paint/unusual for less time and effort than what it would take to make a map? Despite most being indifferent to war paints now they are more universally applicable than stamps hence why they have always sold at a higher demand. People will only see my low tier unusual on Frontier meanwhile a normal unusual or warpaint can be seen on any map with any loadout. ---- Im glad youre not blindly hating on anything unfamiliar but remember the introduction of casual killed many community servers. Some rare server modes are now lost to time with no hope of revival. Bringing them back as content would be a nice way to make up for that and at least give them a chance to be preserved for the few who like them. Having them featured in casual would be the perfect gateway to introduce new players to some of the most fun outside the box things this game can offer. Things you just never see outside the source community. Though i agree officially adding them should only be saved for the best of the best community gamemodes. Maybe have a competition between Vscript modes and let players and testers vote out the winnder. (Like in Soldier vs Demo when they voted for their respective updates) --- I dont see how VSH is like Mannpower. There are no confusing powerups or flags. I personally found it very fun and balanced no matter if i was playing as Hale or anyone else. Unlike the server plugin, Hales fist isnt a automatic insta kill meaning even slower classes like heavy have a chance. However i would like if the que system was brought back so you know how long there is until you get to play as Hale, or give your spot to someone else if you dont want to play as Hale. --- People have already made concepts and SFM's of Spy disguising as buildings or props but i do get your point. It has low gravity so you can hide above the hunters. (OP since nobody ever looks up in TF2) I agree that in this case it wouldn't make a good additiion to the game but once again, that dont mean we should automatically write off any new mode or harass the skilled mappers just trying to make us fun experiences (that unlike warpaints and unusuals even Free 2 Plays can participate in) To me it should be a higher priorety trying new community modes over making the game run worse with more particle effects and weapon jpegs. Just like he said, the modes should be judged on a case by case basis. Just because one mode sucks dont mean that the next one or that it will be in future versions. We should give them helpful feedback and just vote for the best candidates. ---- Gun Game. I Actually heavially disagree with you with this point for one reason: Most players dont play the objective in TF2 and prefer to just endlessly DM for as long as they like. Its just like Uncle Dane said: "Teamwork is a illusion". (It was the singular thing i liked more about CS than TF2 is that i woulnt get kicked for doing the objective or be told to "shut up" when i warned someone about a spy behind them.) Unless you're playing competitively (which half the community actively hates or the very least is indifferent to) it should not matter if its objective based as long as its fun enough to play for long periods without getting bored. (THAT plays to the strength of TF2 as a whole and since TF2 is already so goofy and silly, its much easier to justify outlandish gamemodes in it compared to CS or Left 4 Dead) Of course its fun and satisfying to play as a team and do your best with your friends (makes me wonder why players hate competitive so much when the objectives are so much fun in TF2), but these modes dont hinder that. The normal gamemodes aren't going anywhere and if players have modes where they can just mess around, relax and have fun without needing to worry about the objective then maybe with that break from the action they will be more willing to play as a team in the real gamemodes. Just because you enjoy the objective dont mean we must reject non casual players a environment where they can play suboptimally without fearing they are ruining the fun for the team. (I know most hoovies, gunspies and spawncampers dont care but whenever i play anything else than Medic or Scout or a class im not confident in my skill i cant shake the cold feeling that im ruining the fun for my teammates when i could be helping them) These things are fun distractions while warming up for a real payload game. Speaking of warming up, a mode like gungame would be the perfect training ground for new players who dont have all the weapons.

[@zythe_]

@@lm9029 ty for the response, very interesting insight. i completely agree with you in that first section, and i do GREATY support the idea of some sort of weekly/monthly featured map rotation of some kind! my previous comment where i mentioned this got eaten i think... also GOD i pray we get summer contracts eventually... Map Stamps. in my comment i wasnt arguing that map stamps are profitable, i have 3 maps in the game i can tell you they're not haha, but i simply corrected them, because mappers make money *outside of stamps* as well. vscript modes. again im more than fine with more gamemodes being added to tf2! and the criticisms i outlined here are not the result of me blindly hating all vscript modes, heck, im helping a friend of mine design one right now! these criticisms come from a genuine place of wanting to see them improve their design and looking into the necessities of designing a new gamemode for tf2 in the modern day. i do judge these modes on a case by case basis i just think that the ones i outlined miss the mark after individially evaluating each one of them, and im not harassing anybody. Sometimes a valid feedback can simply be "it inherently and logistically doesent work". VSH is not like mannpower, i only mentioned mannpower because manpower arbitrarily alters weapon stats with no indication to the player, which VSH does aswell, and i think you shouldnt do that, despite making it more enjoyable. this is just a general rule that applies to all game modes! I guess well have to disagree on GunGame then, because like i said, just because its fun doesent mean itd make for a good addition from a design perspective, ESPECIALLY when the base game of Open Fortress is FREE and BETTER. You'd want each gamemode in the game to have similar or the same base structure, which GG just doesn't. an idea i liked that someone told be about would be to include free weapon contracts for free to plays so they can unlock each one by playing with it in an actual game and completing goals with it. i feel like thatd be a much better and direct system to let new players get and learn new weapons without having to add an entirely new gamemode, where you play with the weapons in a non tf2 environment and dont actually own them.

[@Thomas-vn6cr]

Pretty much agree with everything you said aside from the maps. I personally think maps should be removed. Or at least put onto a rotation. We have community servers that can host maps, and a lot of maps are only added because they "look good", without actually playing well. The possibility of a map being removed (or at least demoted to a rotation so it's not always available), should put a selective pressure on maps to stand the test of time and not just appeal with predatory eyecandy workshop screenshots. Even better, I'd love if there was a system that could incentivise and promote maps being updated more. There's countless variants of 2fort that will never see the light of day. Imagine if we could vote on a weekly basis to have a different variant of 2fort for that week. There's so many maps I want to see, but I don't believe I ever will without a rotation or removal of the unpopular ones. I'd like to add that Gun Game surely doesn't function with class specific weapons, combo weapons, and snowballing weapons? That was the initial reason I don't think it would work (oh great a Frontier Justice with no sentry, ect).

[@PartyPugTV]

Hey guys, so this video came out at a bit of a weird time. When i wrote and finished this video bots where still flooding casual, the #fixtf2 movement hadn't gone through and the community quickplay site hadn't come out yet. It was too late to change alot of stuff present unfortunatly :\ If these thing had come out a month earlier, this video would probably be a bit different. For the time, bots are gone which honestly makes casual ALOT BETTER! It's still not perfect ofc but if there's anytime time to play it, it would be now. However, this isn't guaranteed to last unfortunatly best we can do is be hopeful... With Swishcast Central (the server mentioned in the video), We aimed it to be a solution to help fix casual of some of it's major problems and literally as I was finishing this video but again, a new even better solution was released in with mastercfg's community quickplay. Good news though! Swishcast Central is one of the premier servers that it will drop you into as it's basically casual (but better), we made sure that it met all the requirements and more to be added to the selection so thankfully that whole section isn't just rendered obsolete 😭 That's all I would of added, sorry for the weird timing on the release of this vid. Alot of factors prevented me getting it out quicker than it should have, welcoming all discussion on map rotations, people's thoughts on casual and anything I said that stuck out to them. I like to think of my video's as "the start of a discussion" rather than just saying: this is what we should do bottom line. It's all for the fun of debate and trying to preserve our favourite game! 😁

[@raspy_on_osu]

ain't reading allat

[@PartyPugTV]

@raspy_on_osu RASPY!! 😡😡😡

[@ANIMESLAYER33]

Forgot to pin the comment!

[@PartyPugTV]

@@ANIMESLAYER33 cant, :\

[@krislovespies]

​@@PartyPugTVI feel your pain man

[@capy684]

HYDRO IS A FUN MAP PLEASE SOMEONE BELIVE ME

[@simplysmiley4670]

Quick play was good enough. When the game released. In 2007. Over the years it was getting worse and worse till about year or two before Meet Your Match where it was rare to get a good, pure, vanilla server _with real players_ via quickplay without bombarding you with ads. Casual's fine to me, mostly, just autobalance being wack (why does it target players who are in a party together before anyone else is beyond me). Can find any maps really, with most of them being honestly fine for the most part _besides the holiday events maps,_ alongside pretty good connection when looking for servers with someone across the world in a party with you. It's better then quickplay was in 2014 and 2015.

[@PartyPugTV]

Tbh, i regret using the wording " Was the best " I meant in, compared to casual. I still think it was alot better tho because it gave you the freedom to choose your own server and team which is the complete opposite of casual

[@simplysmiley4670]

@@PartyPugTV You couldn't _choose_ the servers tho it still was random where it put you. And to be honest I prefer official servers over gambling if I'll have a good vanilla match or plugin hell like with quickplay.

[@PartyPugTV]

yes you could tho 0:47 footage of it happening

[@tim14022000]

I'm pretty sure valve changed it where you could choose between valve servers, community servers or both at some point before meet you match came out (I didn't watch the video yet)

[@NotWendy3]

@@simplysmiley4670 But you could. You can literally see footage of the player pressing a "show servers" button and seeing a full list of servers they could directly connect to. The best part of the old system was the ability to click a checkbox to only find official Valve servers, get a list of them, and join one of your choice. Yea, sure, some people used Quickplay wrong and got bombarded with ads from community servers. But that's on them, not on Quickplay as a system. By default it'd list only official servers.

[@herec0mestheCh33f]

Im so glad i can just skip through sponsors

[@moredinorno]

i was on board until you mentioned gold rush. it's a relic of its time, a gem. it's like dustbowl, but a bit more balanced. i do get hoodoo, personally I'd like breadspace gone.

[@Dabs_All_Ovar]

we stan bigcity cars 🫡🫡🫡

[@foxingame6644]

In defense of the last point of mercenary park: You can go through the vents or just go over the little area meaning that instead of pushing from just 1 angle you can have the main push be from one side and another be from a different angle, which requires to coordinate and time it with your teammates to do so instead of cramming everyone through just 1 part. It's just that it's the fastest way to go from where BLU is set up to the control point yet I feel like most maps usually make the shorter routes more difficult to go through anyways

[@MeatwadMeatwad]

Every map you wanted changed/removed is for reasons that people LIKE those maps but reasons you personally hate them (except junction that map is legit dookie). I get you want matches to end, but people like just chilling in a lobby and fucking around indefinitely. I don't think it would be okay to remove maps that people have proved to play and like a lot, despite what you personally think about it. I feel the best way to put a spotlight on some maps would be to do that weekly featured maps thing some people have recommended prior. Also I've thought that the misc section just shouldn't be segregated like that and all maps should be part of a global selection by default, (also bring back arena it's genuinely so fun). Also new gamemode selections for shit like player destruction which as proved itself to be a unique enough and enjoyable gamemode please. Add more maps to warrant gamemode spaces for more niche things like territorial control (a genuinely great concept imo), and special delivery. Also control points is too broad of a gamemode to clump such diverse modes in one section like it is. As maps like powerhouse (3cp) and standin are distinct enough from the usual 5cp format to warrant being a sub-category or something. Same goes for "pyramid" Attack defense maps, like gravelpit; or "centralized" ones such as steel. Adding subcategories for these different types of modes would be more appropriate in my opinion, so you gotta think less about what sub-mode a map is if you wanna exclude or search for it. Also add haarp year-round.

[@PartyPugTV]

i like your ideas, good thinking in the right direction! Also, i have a friend who loves powerhouse just for the fact it never ends so i can respect that opinion! Keep in mind, my videos are not awnsers just my own thoughts so yeah i see where you're coming from 👍

[@tfablake]

Valve would have to rework the contracts when removing the older maps and we all know that aint gonna happen

[@CreepyCat2001]

Or maybe add a big highlight button called *WEEKLY RECOMMENDED GAMEMODE*

[@lucasthefox3748]

The amount of times I've gone the wrong way in bread space ia funny

[@ModeDriver]

If mvm came out nowadays, People would be pissed.

[@dingbat2461]

Braindead take.

[@widerekxxanimations6842]

I wish there were more medival maps ngl

[@CoolSs]

Simple fix, bring back quick play. EVERY SINGLE IMPROVEMENT Casual mode has received is just a removed feature that Quickplay had. The only true thing Casual mode bring to the table was map selection AND I argue that killed 90% of tf2 maps because no one que for them and the system is breaking and keep putting you on the same most popular maps over and over. #BringBackQuickplay

[@sonicmeerkat]

honestly casual is fine, just remove mid game auto balancing and if 2 servers get too in the same region combine them to remove the pregame wait for more players. only other change i'd suggest which is more of a nitpick is longer matches, best 2/3 leads to games being super quick, 3/5 would be better for most maps, only issue would be rolls which in that case shuffle the teams if a round ends too quickly. i will admit i have never played the quickplay system, it may have just needed a ui update and more valve servers in the pool but modern casual isn't bad, barring bots (which were mass banned for a just over a week when this video came out) the vast majority of games are fun. it could be my region cause when i play in other regions with online friends that's when i'd experience mic spammers and ragers, but that is mostly out of valves control. the servers are stable, matches don't take too long to start and you aren't discouraged from using meme loadouts or tryharding by the game design, all i could ask for really. casual is a perfectly functional system and for a game this old that is an achievement. if any server browser needs updating it's the entirely text based community browser, it's impossible to find new custom gamemodes without outside knowledge.

[@BotherRed]

Junction and Turbien was the maps I grew up on

[@domaws]

7:02 played brew like 2 days ago (i don't queue for brew but i was queuing with a friend) and i was the only person on the defending team who found the 1st point LOL

[@CoolSs]

When come to map removal, i think all maps post 2017 should go into review if they should stay. older maps are part of tf2 legacy (almost most of the terrible maps are post 2017) here is list of maps should be removed:- -Bonesaw -Frosty -Frostwatch -WUTVILLE -Cursed Cove -Erebus -Bread Space -Chilly -Frostcliff -Rumford -Reckoner -Cashworks -Venice -Brew -Carrier (sightlines and look) -Emerge (uninspiring) -Pier (this is maybe the most hot take one here but i hate playing on this map. where most of the map go unplayed on.) -etc... -no new Vscript gamemode unless it's remix of tf2 existen gamemods. (fit tf2 gameplay and aesthetics) Re-skins maps that are pointless:- -Snowfall -Snowtower -Hacksaw -Turbine Center -Sandcastle -Nucleus VSH -Coal Pit -etc... Keep in mind i wanted to add more halloween maps but many of them are so bad that i refuse to play tf2 in halloween. i can't put most of them here cuz i never played on them. but for the few i did, i hated my time playing on them.

[@cozzieozzie]

With all do respect Prop hunt and Gun Game should not be added to TF2 at all, I'm not even sure why you were even talking about it for half the videos run time, next time keep to the topic at hand.

[@PartyPugTV]

cause it's becoming more and more prevelant in casual

[@PartyPugTV]

also why? would love to hear your opinion

[@randomdude-tk6nm]

It is not becoming more prevelant in Casual. Where did you hear that​ @@PartyPugTV

[@Aurum4137]

​@@PartyPugTV I think I can understand why, like how VSH was added. Yeah got threw in alt gamemodes it will be the same problem and probably fall into the dust bowl of irrelevancy. To me a better solution (not fully finished but tired of hearing quick play > casual) just rework the server browser to have a quick play option. Still keep browsing but you can click quick play to find a populated server that you can play (like how casual right now for me I am paired in Virginia servers)

[@PartyPugTV]

@@randomdude-tk6nm there's a new v-script mode on the workshop and in game every map cycle wdym its not?

[@Nova-rd3hi]

The maps TF2 maps Valve have been adding to the game in recent years have the opposite problems of older maps. They're WAY to open and sniper-friendly, with gargantuan sightlines and room for rocket jumping.

[@PartyPugTV]

bread space is a good example of this

[@afaniscool]

the meat your match update was my personal vietnam

[@ericcousins3848]

Can't believe you got through this entire video without mentioning the uninspired slop that is Suijin.

[@RonZ234]

Powerhouse deserves to stay

[@NOMADICWHARF420]

the darker secrets are coming to light, it’s all in yo face like what happened to mike.

[@Thomas-vn6cr]

Sounds like a small change, but I bet it would have a huge effect: If they changed the menu to extend futher to fit two gamemode categories side by side, they could make it way easier to select and scroll down to see a lot of the other gamemodes, allowing them to categorise them more.

[@kingkrool94]

removing content from the game sets an awful precedent for TF2's future. People like Powerhouse, People like Hoodoo, and people love Mercenary Park. having that content be removed overnight will anger the player base. as for Vsqript game modes, it comes down to execution. ZI can kinda get away with it as it's Halloween exclusive. VSH is at least a fun reference to the lore surrounding TF2, but it's very different from TF2's core as a team-based shooter. but as for prop hunt and gun-game, it's not TF2. simple as that. if you want a prop hunt game, play Gmod. if you want an arena FPS, play the open fortress mod or DOOM or Quake. don't add stuff to the game that isn't a part of the game. TF2 will end up being a Roblox or Fortnite. but a good example of Vsqipt done right in koth_Krampus, it adds a unique boss that fits the setting of TF and Smissmas. it's still TF2, but it adds a unique twist. a less holiday example would be ctf_harrp. it's a remix of attack/defend styled after TFC's A/D. it fits TF2 very well and stands out among the others.

[@themisterdellou]

I still don't see any problems with casual. We still can play on community servers

[@JuhMall01]

I only ever queue for 20 maps max

[@rawmaw]

Pls decrease the volume of the background music, it can be a little too distracting.

[@PartyPugTV]

i have edit software turned down that was my bad 🙏 will fix that next time, sorry again

[@rawmaw]

@@PartyPugTV Thx!

[@mrman9262]

thank you PartyPug TurquoiseVest for blessing us with another video

[@CreepyCat2001]

Or maybe spy can drop a fake ball?

[@Momoko_Sweetie]

Yo, an improved casual experience with random crits and no class limits? That sounds like heaven

[@iced2594]

Not to mention there's no point of trying to win because you don't get rewarded for leveling up anymore

[@pyxell]

I'm just going to focus on your choices for map removal since others have made much better points than I can about v-script gamemodes and such. Your rationale on it seems to just be whether you personally enjoy the map, not considering that other people have tastes that differ from your own. Powerhouse is my favourite map in the game, and the fact you not personally liking it is enough to suggest removing it from the game is baffling to me. Me personally, I find playing on Swiftwater comparable to being inside an Iron Maiden, but a lot of people find the map fun somehow, and it isn't fair to deny those people the ability to play a map which has been in the map pool for almost 8 years just because I don't like it.

[@PartyPugTV]

If they fixed the timelimit thing i'd be chill with it honest

[@AzelleTown]

Yeah yeah okay but what about my casual rank that I've been tirelessly working on for the past 46 YEARS of my life????? maybe i will great video

[@not_pyxlwhip]

no mor botis

[@infernuzGD]

I have to admit that sulfur is confusing but it's just SO MUCH FUN. I really like the gimmick of a "second chance" which doesn't come into play very often but if it does, it's basically Pub push activator which is pretty cool imo. And the map itself is very beautiful. I feel like it just needs a couple more signs and then it would be one of the best TF2 maps. However, I would like to hear what you think about it, and by you I mean everyone

[@randomseagullonalcatraz755]

Ok no joke Sawmill CTF is one of my favorite maps. Granted mostly because of nostalgia. But it’s to the point where Sawmill koth is my least favorite map because it’s not ctf. I would like to hear your reasoning. And I know I sound like a coping loser on the internet, but tell me something other than the intel hell that is the basement, by just having one engi makes the game last longer than Oppenheimer… Kinda answered my own question huh. Jokes aside is there something wrong with ctf sawmill I’m missing.

[@otmanbudunt6992]

The "REAL" Problem is that you dont mention me pwning you on Hightower as demopan

[@PartyPugTV]

supressed memory

[@lm9029]

Nice to finally see someone giving v-script a fair chance. Playing all of Valves other games always made me jealous that TF2 had no support for the creative community modes that worked as "fun distractions" while warming up for a real game. Also i dont think that the problem with turbine is that its cramped (mid is about the same size as harvest mid which you thought was alright) but rather that attackers can approach spawn from 3 sides while being able to see inside enemy spawn. That map basically require and encourage you to spawncamp if you want to win. Would still definetly want that map switched for something else any day. Buying a turbine map stamp was one of the biggest mistakes of my life.

[@grilledsaxton]

if you remove brazil then people cant do their very old brazil contract to get yeti heavy

[@PartyPugTV]

true... i think its like 4 cents tho 😭

[@grilledsaxton]

@@PartyPugTV 4 cents to much

[@lnterest-ing]

my personal thought is that i dont mind any casual map in particular, but i think there should be a rotating selection of, say, 3 to 5 maps per gamemode each day, so if you want to play payload, you aren't playing badwater for 8 hours every single day

[@PartyPugTV]

I agree with this!

[@simplysmiley4670]

At the same time, fuck rotations of maps. Let's say you're feeling like playing, I unno, Borneo or Swiftwater, but nope, out of rotation for [insert amount of time here] "go play the maps you don't want to play or fuck off."

[@PlafonFan]

That would only make player unable to play the maps they want and wouldn't fix anything.

[@Thomas-vn6cr]

I think it would work, but only if community servers are integrated a bit more into the equation. So players that insist on playing a specific map can more easily move to community servers, which would give them some needed attention.

[@skelorbonor]

For as long as this video is, idk why it's not chopped into visual segments because I'm not watching all that

[@PartyPugTV]

here u go :) Chapters 0:00 - Intro 3:53 - What Makes A Map Bad? 8:14 - V-Script 10:52 - Sponsor 12:55 - Back 2 V-Script 17:46 - What Maps Need To Go... 24:34 - Alternate Gamemodes 32:07 - What's My Solution? 37:20 - Outro

[@ArchChrono]

oh no, the heckin bigotry and hate speech is ruining tf2, we should cancel the vas for making those awfully outdated and needlessly cruel lines that the mercs say to eachother

[@PartyPugTV]

comparing slurs to the in-game dialogue is crazy

[@Auriee_]

the tc_hydrophobia is apparent

[@PartyPugTV]

I got in a full game of hydro the other day with no bots and tbh It was so surreal playing a full game of it and i won't lie i kinda had fun just for the novelty. However, the mode is genuinely broken is casual it like restarts the match randomly out of nowhere which sucks... 😭

[@Auriee_]

@@PartyPugTV If they just fixed the occasional spawn bugs and kicked it up to the regular casual pool so people would play it it'd be infinitely better because a lot of the faults of hydro come from low player counts. It works way better in 12v12 than, say, 4v4 (the best I've gotten recently) because there's enough people to both attack and defend.

[@thespringlock1794]

my question is how tf does PASS Time’s 3 maps warrant it’s own slot in Alternate and not VSH’s 4 maps? also how tf is 2fort Invasion more of an alternate game mode than like Standin (a map with a unique domination 3cp thing)? ok but yeah, the map problem is really just something the contractor and Eric Smith dug themselves into and there’s really no pretty way for them to climb out of it at this point (they could’ve spent some of that update space on more war paints or contracts or weapon skins or more meaningful patches or anything but nooooo…). getting ur map removed from casual is like a final gut punch for those who weren’t lucky enough to make an instant classic, and like a sudden kick in the balls for those who saw some success in their map. and most of the official maps are instant classics, so no luck there. the map bloat problem is kinda just something that’s there, and if ya nudge it, suddenly the pain spikes. really the best and least damaging thing they could do is like prop up the alternate game modes a bit in the main menu, cuz i swear like 70% of the playerbase doesn’t know that the section exists. otherwise, adding the changes you suggested for Payload Race and PASS Time would help (even if I don’t think plr should be mixed with normal pl, for the sake of preventing newbie confusion).

[@at0m1zed]

Yeah hydro is the problem with casual glad you agree

[@PartyPugTV]

😭

[@gaminggranny1541]

The idea of a Community Mode tab was something i really wanted since they added vsh in, so seeing it in the same tab as Hydro is very upsetting

[@小縷縷]

remove wutville

[@SealShpeeDaSweggy]

Where did all this hatred towards Quickplay come from all of a sudden? Are people in this comment section seriously sitting there with a straight face saying the player experience was worse back then than it is now? I'm convinced that awful video SquimJim made has caused people to just blindly eat up everything he said and ran with it. What's worse is people keep expressing that opinion and then don't elaborate as to why it was so bad. I've been an avid player of this game since 2013 and 9 times out of 10, my games were fun then compared to how broken the shit we have now is.

[@PartyPugTV]

I admit it wasn't perfect, but it wasn't terrible or anything? Atleast in my expierence. It gave you the choice, which was what's important imo

[@SealShpeeDaSweggy]

@@PartyPugTV Precisely. If I want to play how I want, on what team I want, Quickplay had all that. Casual stripped almost all of that away. Why are people refusing to acknowledge that?

[@CoolSs]

Well, people are still coping for MYM and so scared they will be called out after they shilled for it. Also somehow disabling message of the day and looking for better server is harder than re-queing. but what do i know, being put in steam roll or bot server must be better or something. The hate Quickplay getting is propaganda at this point. Also would love to see the SquimJim youtube age metrics to see how many are in the age of 14-16 (who no way start playing tf2 before MYM)

[@theraze8686]

80% of current tf2 playerbase started playing after jungle inferno

[@lm9029]

@@SealShpeeDaSweggy Nobody is hating quickplay. It had plenty of things that could and should be back in MM. But its also not the magical solution to the bot crisis like many think it is. If you watched Squimjim you'd realize he agrees with this too. Even he admitts that quickplay did many things better. He only points out why valve is unlikely to go through the effort of "un do" the entire meet your match update and why casual is "good enough" for TF2 Quickplay still had cheaters, it didnt let you pick the exact maps you liked. You were easially put in malicious servers. You could easially be stalked and griefed as kicked players can simply rejoin. That didnt make the system bad, but it was easially exploitable. Matchmaking has gotten alot faster and gives you a sigh of relief when cheaters are kicked. Though it made it harder to pick obscure gamemodes and not play the team you want. Neither system is perfect. Matchmaking works for TF2 but its a no brainer that completely removing and replacing quickplay entirely, was a horrible mistake.

[@theotherjared9824]

Casual should be overhauled into more of a hub. Quickplay should be inside of casual alongside all the other modes and an "other" tab that sends you to custom servers. Quickplay itself could introduce a system like mario kart where everyone either picks a map or a random option, and the game randomly chooses which player it listens to.

[@BoyOHBoy123]

Instead of removing maps. You could make it to were you can't queue for specific maps?

[@PartyPugTV]

Map rotation would go hard imo

[@PlafonFan]

But why ? It wouldn't fix anything, just makes you unable to play the maps you like.

[@BoyOHBoy123]

​@@PlafonFan My reasoning is that it will make people queue for lesser played maps more?

[@PlafonFan]

@@BoyOHBoy123 Well thats true but it would still make more problems than solutions.

[@Thomas-vn6cr]

​​@@PlafonFan what problems would it cause? Aside from the players that insist on playing a specific map, I don't think this would be that bad. For those players that are put off, I believe integrating community servers into casual somehow, or just increasing their accessibility would help a lot to provide a place for the ones who want to stick to the same maps. Community servers could do with some more attention.

[@doctormedic2682]

I liked this video up until the Turbine and Powerhouse slander. I will not listen to any reasoning. Reported.

[@CoolSs]

The hydro and junction slander is unjustifiable. I think legacy maps should stay, anything post 2017 should be reviewed and only keep the good maps (most halloween and winter maps will be cut out if you ask me)

[@_indii]

Hopped on my boy while watching this one, great work!

[@foxingame6644]

casual just needs better team balancing to be fun since I still find myself requeuing until I get onto a match where I don't get snowballed cause of team diffs like crazy

[@zerokoolsentenals4281]

Why does it sound like you have a cold and you have a stuffy noise

[@Ne1vaan]

You could also connect to valve servers manually from the server browser to pick exactly what you wanted to play. Miss that immensely.

[@randomdude9630]

I think a better idea would be to take the bloat maps and make them an optional dlc [free of course] so you get TF2 with the base maps plus a few extras then on the store page there would be 2 dlcs Extra maps so stuff like pass time, man power and community stuff and seasonal maps so you can play zombie infection all year round [I love zombies so much] that way everyone wins since the map creators get their map to stay in the game offically, I dont have to play their maps and people cant complain about bloat anymore since they dont even need to have it on their hard drives the only issue is that its gonna require a bit of co- oh wait

[@gp-1542]

I used to go to CP maps and moon as for my go to for tf2 before meet your match. Had a lot of moments there and many memories still reside on those memories After meet your match, it was like a piece of the game identical was lost. Sure, community severs are there, and skia is a source for entertainment for me, (like looking through a metal asylum) i still miss the old days, not even the updates, i just miss clicking quick play and jumping in a middle of a match 😢

[@Milessexton-g6z]

casual is the reason why I like classic tf2 better because u know casual sucks so bad

[@Kaydoom.]

Is that me as medic at 8:33 ? I remember playing this months ago it was fun as hell. AND I was in the prop hunt and gun game on the switch cast server

[@keecko8169]

I think the sad part about some of the bad maps is how easily they can be improved, Mercenary Park? add like 3 or 4 Flanks that have varying angles on the point, why so many? Because the C point room is small enough to where 1 or 2 flanks would be negated by 1 guy just watching it every now and then, I think this would also be a great way to add some vertical depth to the C room, have a flank that ends on a decent sized hole in the wall, with a nice platform to move around and pester the Red team with, 2 of our 4 Flanks could come from the same general direction as the choke, but much harder to manage, coming in at a diagonal angle, with one having a very wide exit, presumably from a former Yeti having broken through the wall that way, making the flank a big wide, tall tunnel, this would be good for those mini-pushes where 3 to 5 people group together and push into the enemy territory, which would distract Red enough to allow the rest of the team to do a full push through the main choke, the 2nd diagonal could be more tight, only fit for 1 or 2 people at a time to use, this would be a great spot for any Medic Combos who plan to Uber, or for just keeping Red on their toes about who's gonna pop out of the small flank next, then there's turbine, this is also easy. the Health Packs get moved into the Middle of the map, the Ceiling is raised drastically, the inner areas on both sides where teams spawn could be widened so it isnt basically just a tunnel, the vents are cool but to be better they should offer more routes, maybe 1 or 2 extra routes to the intel, maybe they get expanded and theres a route that connects the vents, anything to give the vents more depth

[@Multi1]

It is, objectively speaking, a misconception that TF2 is unplayable. Community Servers can and overall are better than official casual servers. Mainly because random crits are in Casual and you cannot turn them off. You can for Community Servers. All you need to do is spend some time looking for servers to favorite. Then you'll have a catalogue of servers to switch between. There is no reason not to try community servers. They also have no Sniper bots there. No matter what happens to Casual, you have community servers.

[@PartyPugTV]

agree with this aswell

[@Mr_Sega]

14:06 Wrong. Map creators do get % profit from crate key sales as well. Not just stamps.

[@PartyPugTV]

thank you mr sega for correcting me on my joke

[@Mr_Sega]

@PartyPugTV that's not a joke. Jokes are supposed to be funny because there's some kind of truthful. You're just spreading misinformation.

[@PartyPugTV]

@@Mr_Sega my bad i forgot family guy was actually a documentry

[@randomdude9630]

@@Mr_Sega sir twitter is two floors down and to the right, you'll fit in there much better

[@NinjaV12_]

I do understand removing CTF Sawmill but if it was less chokey and a more streamlined root it would be good

[@joshmayo659]

I LOVE powerhouse, terrible map but I’ve made so many memories there from my first top score to backcapping with the bois

[@PartyPugTV]

fair enough honest 👍 I love the design too! I just also like it when my matches end 😭

[@the_really_blobfish]

[Text communication is not available for this acount]

[@ShockedTaiLung]

aw yeah its party pug time

[@ethanrumley746]

I saw a demo knight run across the screen in my exact drip and had to subscribe

[@antionnella1938]

2:16 *INSTANT LIKE*

[@noireanimations]

When the bots are gone, casual is peak tf2

[@TheKingofGames1001]

36:54 Wait... 3RD TIME?!?!?! Was there one between savetf2 and fixtf2? or was there one before savetf2?

[@darkmewmewsans5481]

One of my favorite maps is sulfur but I get that it's a bit confusing

[@kieranocity]

I once got 6 matches that were rolled by the enemy team.. In a row. BTW, once i saw The Satan model from Sam & Max 2, i immediately subbed :D

[@FungIsSquish]

Freaking bigotry!! I wish valve moderated it’s chat and made it insufferably corporate, soulless, and full of toxic positivity garbage

[@PartyPugTV]

?

[@FungIsSquish]

@@PartyPugTVOh... it’s nothing 🥺❤️❤️

[@ozziemahboi]

Though it's not fun to just see people having the right to make fun of a specific group of people in a serious way i suppose, i do wish there was a better option to be able to censor the chat for a person themselves rather then just have it be done for everyone

[@Artemich20v]

Vavle tried this "solution" before. It didnt work fine. Man, if you dont like some maps, just doent play it. Its a fresh air for other player, and new feelings for them. And its not so bad to hide it completely.

[@tomsmithok]

I miss being able to easily play on maps like pipeline and hydro, casual completely killed those maps

[@Neoniq41]

"MuH bIgOtRy" Yeah you lost me.

[@NotSamG]

Yes it’s literally 1984 cuz u can’t say slurs

[@yuritarted9890]

@@NotSamGbut we can say slurs

[@doestf2videos]

YEAAAAHHHHH A VIDEO!

[@3cheeseshigh]

wait fixtf2 is the 3rd time we've tried this? i thought it was the 2nd

[@maximilianklinger2712]

9:49 you mean Versus?

[@ApocRNG]

Remember how it was a specific group of competitive players who "advised" valve when they were making meet your match? Yeahh... thanks B4nny and co

[@justalifelover]

pretty good video man, finally someone that says the same things that i haved think and discuss about w my friends, someone that uses the brain and doesn't just cry

[@sidequest2230]

i find it so absurd people find the alternate game modes out of places. yeah some would be but alot of them are peak tf2 content. the kinda shit we wish valve would give us. If mvm or the holloween events were new these guys would flip there shit. To me these kinda game modes need to be at the forefront, not as a core game thing but celebrated along side it. Though im also a weirdo that just wants tf2 to be pure community content so im kinda also on the opposite extreme of that mentallity

[@SirKarpAlot]

NBA style football pitch

[@yoshen433]

As a pyro I approve of the door of doom

[@AJ-vq7im]

Why did you talk about vscript half the video. That was dumb. Keep to the actual video

[@PartyPugTV]

felt it was revelant since more and more community gamemodes are being added and it's been very decisive. Maybe i should of placed that section at the end tho

[@AJ-vq7im]

@@PartyPugTV probably appreciate your handling of criticism love your videos!

[@mrkripo6227]

I am not sure on rtd thing. I was(still) playing TF2 at that time. My head remembers stuff when I was still Gibus.But I have no memories about rtd in quick play.