The Ridiculous Combo That BREAKS Rogues

Sneaky, sneaky rogues traveling hundreds of feat a second while remaining perfectly still. Dungeons and Dragons 5e is a crazy game!
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[@DnDShorts]

What do you think? Is this combo a smart interaction between features, or sneaky exploit? Would you allow it in your game?

[@mjyates119]

lol mybe

[@AvangionQ]

I personally wouldn't allow mounted sneak attack at all, because firing from horseback removes precision, but that's just me.

[@Hangtime_Davi64]

I wouldn't allow it. My main justification is that the ability is called Steady Aim, and I doubt that firing from the back of a moving horse, griffon, or other mountable creature would be a very steady ride. Rules-wise, I would simply say that the movement limitation of Steady Aim extends to your mount while you are mounted.

[@thesongbird1679]

Mounted super rouge? Give em a lance and watch em charge. No mercy

[@TheRobversion1]

I'd allow it when i DM. this is something i already do as a player even with just a normal mount which imo is underused at most tables. there's so many ways to replicate this setup anyway without using your bonus action. for example, you can easily have a familiar perched on your mount always readying an action to help once you get to melee range. then you move in, familiar's help, you sneak attack then your mount disengages and moves away. same thing and didn't cost a bonus action. so what you suggested is actually a more costly action economy wise so i'd allow it.

[@izzymosley1970]

I'm pretty sure the Mongols did something like this in real life.

[@phillipduda1188]

Yeah.. welcome to the world of mounted archery.

[@vinzettoducama7065]

Yup. This is the comment I was looking for.

[@V-stur]

I was immediately going to say this... This is the mongol strategy in a nutshell.

[@TheApproachableMohawk]

Yeah I was going to say it makes sense if you consider that Mongols did BY THE THOUSANDS

[@scottread2979]

But the mongols didn’t have steady aim. They were firing into armies. It’s hard to miss an entire army.

[@rolancritz1853]

Nothing says "steady" like moving 200 feet on a mount in 6 seconds!

[@platiuscyndar9017]

I mean. Horses are pretty bloody stead at speed.

[@natepease2523]

One word Mongols

[@GMeneze800]

@@natepease2523 i don't think the mongols and the cossacks used to attack at advantage every single arrow but ok (they did have great aim tho)

[@platiuscyndar9017]

@@GMeneze800 no they just had a +15 to attack rolls

[@aduckwithayoutubechannel]

@@platiuscyndar9017 mongols were power gamers confirmed

[@LegendStormcrow]

As soon as he said "your move is 0" I immediately went, "yeah, mounted mongol warrior."

[@chrx6089]

Damn, I'm actually going Phantom Rogue that is gonna talk to some ancestral warrior. I was gonna go Samurai but I think this'll be rad!

[@LegendStormcrow]

@@chrx6089 glad that this forever DM helped 😁

[@chrx6089]

@@LegendStormcrow this is for a Discord Server. You can play sometimes at your own time!

[@LegendStormcrow]

@@chrx6089 I'd inevitably have scheduling conflicts. Right now I only play with my family, and only the writers feel game.

[@clarkkent163000]

Make it an elf with elven accuracy

[@Roshiyu]

Make it a fairy, mounted on a party member. ;P

[@aduckwithayoutubechannel]

@@Roshiyu 3 halflings in a trench coat with the top two each wielding a bow and arrow.

[@KajiinSkyrim]

@@aduckwithayoutubechannel at this point make it a batiri stack of goblins all being rogues besides the one on the bottom

[@dustinsisco9534]

Not being human makes it harder to get the ritual caster feat though

[@mr.cauliflower3536]

@@dustinsisco9534 4th level or UA background

[@Gareon155]

Ah yes horse archer. The best build

[@ulyssesthedm]

The Japanese specialized in it for a reason!

[@neiretzlik4337]

@@ulyssesthedm Huns too. And Cossacks. And Turks. Heck, a lot of cultures thought it's a good idea to shoot and ride at the same time lmao

[@martonszeleczki4169]

@@neiretzlik4337 What's funny is that faking retreat and shooting the enemy while they chased the Huns is the oldest trick we had in our sleeves and somehow the Mongol horde still fooled us with the exact same shit back in the day.

[@Slitheringpeanut]

Mongols took over the known world with this combo.

[@adriandupre1713]

this just gave me an idea for a BBEG to end my campaign

[@peterlynch9929]

Your players will _hate_ you

[@haydenford3794]

Make them a mounted warrior fighter and an assassin or phantom Rogue to either kill someone in one turn or do loads of damage to two people at once maybe make them a bugbear too

[@Battleguild]

Let them shoot an arrow into the sky that blots out the sun, and the party gets hit by a literal rain of arrows.

[@ap_trial666]

@@Battleguild So basically you make the "General Starscourge Radan", neat.

[@prehistoriccreator9600]

Have at least two enemies, have one be the debuffer that's a lvl 20 hexblade warlock/bard(for other debuffs) with 30 cha and have it cast hexblades curse and also have its familiar cast Sign of Ill Omen and make the curse give extra damage rolls(like a 1d6 or 1d8) to all of its allies attacks. Make it do an agonizing blast if you're feeling cruel. Have another be the lvl 20 rogue with max dex and since the tank is there, you get the sneak attack bonus damage. If you want make it an inquisitive, have it go first, use insightful fighting for the first turn for the extra 3d6 dmg, or thief for the extra turn. Preferably you have a tank or two there. And there we get a nice tpk, or at least a painful fight, with a decently high chance of a PC death, depending what level the party is.

[@andrewjohnson6716]

How does it not make sense? You are literally describing the Mongols and the Huns. Techniques that allowed them to conquer the largest empire in human history and that are still practiced to this day.

[@argentandroid5732]

Technique AND equipment. The saddles, bows, and horses they used were all intrinsic the method. You would have a much harder time pulling off their style of highly mobile mounted archery with an English Longbow while mounted on a Shire horse.

[@GeorgieBonsoir]

@@argentandroid5732 And it's impossible to say that that "Longbow" is a high powered mongol bow?

[@andrewjohnson6716]

@@GeorgieBonsoir Good point. Mongol horn bows are more powerful and have higher draw weight than European longbows.

[@scottread2979]

The mongols were also aiming at entire armies. Even if they missed their target they’d hit someone. It’s not the same a rogue shooting at one monster.

[@frise6183]

do you think they were as accurate while riding horses as they were standing still? archery from a horse makes sense; getting a bonus to accuracy while riding a horse does not

[@shanytopper2422]

I don't think it's broken. 1 - it still cost you a bonus action to get that advantage. Seeing as there are ways to use you bonus action to get an attack, this is fair. 2- the rogues are balanced out to ALWAYS sneak attack once on their round. If you don't sneak attack, you are behind on the dpr. 3- you need to spend a feat to get this spell, and then to actually get it (you only automatically get 2 level 1 spells). So it's both an asi AND that the gm will allow it. It's not free. 4- the spell's ritual takes 10 minutes for 1 hour of steed. So you might not be able to use it on some cases. All in all? Far from broken. Just a nice reasonable way to get advantage and movement speed.

[@cmdrpickles]

You can skip the ritual and just get a normal mount too. You’re slower and the mount is vulnerable, but you can do something better with your level 1 or 4 feat and it takes no special training.

[@bskec2177]

Well, because phantom steed is an illusion spell, an Arcane Trickster can get it at level 13. They can't cast it as a ritual but it's a viable choice for an action cast. It's definitely not a broken combo at 13.

[@dustingaethje1332]

Just get yourself an illusion wizard. Illusion wizard + assassination rogue = best powrr couple Just letting everyone know, try this combo

[@michlhiatt7873]

Or be a halfliing and ride a dog

[@austinchristensen1487]

Not to mention you can't always be mounted so your DM can build the campaign around gimmicks like this

[@neiretzlik4337]

When a Total War Attila player desides to join the party

[@kevinphiggins]

Just discovered this combo in my last session with my weekly group when my rogue was riding a Broom of Flying, it’s even better than a Phantom Steed because it flies

[@hyliandoctor]

And with no rumbling underneath you (but horses can be damn steady at speed), your shots would be smooth as butter.

[@Capa2.]

Honestly one of my favorite combos, Treantmonk's Temple has a 40 min video further explaining the build in "The Double Phantom: Straight rogue damage build for D&D 5e". It's really worth the watch!

[@dragonhearthx8369]

Yup, came to the comment section to see if this was already mentioned.

[@ahaymaker535]

Came to like all the treantmonk comments

[@matissequaylepetit7592]

My favorite thing about watching these is knowing damn well my players arnt smart enough to figure this out to I never have to worry

[@Noobie2k7]

I mean anyone trying out something like this would have to be in a pretty narrow window of stupidity. Not smart enough to figure out how to do it but then still dumb enough to actually want too.

[@stephanshaw6201]

This isn't broken at all, as a DM I love this the rogue in my game has a panther mount

[@robertgatfirld9945]

I watched a video a while ago of a build called the double phantom that utilized this exact thing specifically.

[@zacharylona]

WotC: designs this feature to be used exactly this way D&D KZbinrs: "YOU'LL NEVER BELIEVE THIS BROKEN COMBO!"

[@toe_sucker_4165]

Pretty sure it was meant to be used to be a sniper shooting from a vantage point.

[@Shoefae]

Yeah no, this absolutely wasn't "meant" to be used this way.

[@zacharylona]

There's zero abuse, and mounted combat is incredibly common at many tables, certainly by level 3-5. It's superior mobility, as your mount can disengage (while moving faster than your speed) and you can still attack whatever you want. I'm certain the designers didn't forget the whole "mounted combat" section they wrote.

[@Noobie2k7]

Tinkling back now in my entire 14 years of DM'ING I think I've only used mounted combat maybe 4 separate times.

[@burgernthemomrailer]

@@ShoefaeAnd you wonder why martials are so weak.

[@Law-of-EnTropy]

We're basically making a Mongolian Archer

[@rileybrannan1330]

this combo goes so hard. Treantmonk did a video detailing a player of his that introduced this to him a while back and its dirty

[@Tyrnak_Fenrir]

And then the winged Hussars arrived!!!

[@mifigor1935]

They used Lances though

[@Meftu]

Nah, Mongol horse archers.

[@tylerneve-harris3336]

This came up recently in one of my games, our paladin tried carrying our rogue to use steady aim. Our DM called bullshit and said no that doesnt work lol.

[@albertnonymous1886]

It's very inclusive of you guys to include someone developmentally delayed.

[@zacharylona]

Did your DM read Steady Aim? Like, all the words?

[@tylerneve-harris3336]

I can see both sides of the argument, I'm just the cleric so what do I know? Lol

[@TripleBarrel06]

@@zacharylona You should look up Rule 0.

[@JoeSmith-ug9hu]

DM over rules all... And I agree with your DMs rulling personally

[@override367]

Given that mounted characters in D&D generally get advantage all the time anyway, this isn't that big of a deal

[@ARandomGuy69420]

Only against targets smaller than the mount while using a melee weapon, and that requires a feat. This is a ranged weapon without a feat(although you probably want mounted combatant for the other effects anyway).

[@DDCRExposed]

I'm looking forward to this exact combo when I go to play a Warforged Phantom Rogue. Good Times!

[@joshd4119]

Awesome to see you here. Love your channel

[@DDCRExposed]

@@joshd4119 Thanks! I'm always watching their content as it comes out. It's great material.

[@LookingForAName...]

It does make some sense though, mounted archery has been used effectively throughout history, most famously by the Mongols. It's maybe a little bit of a reach to think that they would be able to hit vital points with deadly accuracy, but this is D&D after all.

[@patrickhannon2694]

Ahhh the classic double phantom maneuver

[@Nora_Muse_]

Imagine giving the enemy the effect of the spell blur, which cancels all advantages

[@Drekromancer]

pain

[@macmusial3644]

Treantmonk's Temple did a video a while back on this exact build using Elven Accuracy, look up the Double Phantom Rogue it's a great video

[@JoshDavisBlues]

Yep, this is a key piece of the Double Phantom build

[@jakestanley3529]

I am once again asking for a video about how to get the most cantrips in dnd

[@lurialiliani]

I support this request. 🪄

[@TheMccaleb19]

Dundundundundundundun FLASH AAAAAAH-right in the damn kneee!

[@nuggetsschumaker4371]

I was an adventurer like you, then I took an arrow to the knee... From a mounted goblin... Who seemed really steady to shoot even if he ran across the plains at high speed on a horse.

[@bannana422]

This is a legitimate tactic of combat mounted Archers in warfare. It makes sense they'd get something like this in game.

[@stephenhenderson6143]

Hey, the actual full build of this combo is over on treatmonks temple

[@darkranger116]

"it doesnt make a lick of sense" Mongolian and Comanche Horse Archers in real life : :)

[@Comicsluvr]

Take this down right now before my DM sees it and figures out how to counter it because I am SO stealing this!

[@bigloser5104]

DMs are prolly scrounging these videos

[@arekpetrosian4965]

@@bigloser5104 Yes, we are. 😉👍

[@cheddar_boss]

Nice try.

[@ashemadaeva]

close quarter combat, uneven terrain, snares

[@remington14]

The double phantom build!

[@xenia1250]

how to turn your rogue into an eastern asian ancient warrior

[@ssalamander2134]

Treantmonk made a video about a build that uses this in addition to a lot of other things, called "The Double Phantom" (Phantom Rogue with a Phantom Steed)

[@Maninawig]

Also works with a Scout when the enemy ends their turn within 5ft.

[@lucasramey6427]

That wouldn't work while mounted because you have to use your movement to move and not the mount's however if we're talking nonmounted then yes absolutely

[@japanadian879]

My group's rogue does this LOL

[@lordzaboem]

What mount does the Rogue use?

[@mactireliath2356]

Treantmonk’s Phantom Rogue build is a smart way to make this into a full build

[@jordyrowe9055]

Saw this on Treantmonk's channel first. The double phantom is one of the only straight-classed rogues that can hold up and outperform against other highly optimized martial builds where other rogues can't.

[@TheStarFishVessel]

RAW this makes sense mechanically, but I think the idea of Steady Aim was, well, to be steady. hard to do that while running, let alone riding horse back

[@arekpetrosian4965]

Tell that to the Mongols. LOL

[@TheStarFishVessel]

@@arekpetrosian4965 they just built dif

[@arekpetrosian4965]

@@TheStarFishVessel I was joking...I actually agree with you, and as a DM, I would NOT allow this combo. "Steady Aim" sort of has it right there in the name..."steady"; you can't be too bloody steady on a moving horse. Now...a broom (or carpet) of flying? I might allow that...

[@TheStarFishVessel]

@@arekpetrosian4965 so 👍

[@TheStarFishVessel]

@@arekpetrosian4965 yeah

[@jackrocks8350]

Or be a small race and mount one of your party members

[@pockets8548]

exotic saddle time.

[@mx_nana_banana]

This is like the flash running up to the bad guy, and slapping him in the face.

[@Edman459]

Treantmonk did a video on this concept and it turned out to be one of the best dpr builds in the game.

[@PyroGobbo]

Paladin/rogue multiclass here we go. Find steed new meta.

[@e4ehco21]

Also elven accuracy for that sweet sweet crit chance

[@BoredTAK5000]

Ok I so wanna do this now

[@jordanprice6457]

Treantmonk has a video where he presents one of his patron’s build that uses this combo with Phantom Rogue. It’s called the double phantom and it’s a great build! Everyone should check it out!!

[@caramelfrappe402]

I love your videos because every time a player wishes to try this, I get to see how balanced it actually is in my campaign. Granted, I also throw counters to see how long their strategy lasts for so it's a fun scenario for both people. Great video!

[@DukeofDusk]

What about being mounted on your centaur friend

[@justachannel8600]

Me: So I've made a horse archer. DM: So tonight we are playing the cave of tightest corridors.

[@patrickmoore5317]

You bringing this up reminded me of discovering how rogue arcane trickster is low key one of the best assassins ever. With three major options one of which does not require any feats. 1. Using find familiar / flock of familiars, stand outside the building, or down the road using your familiar senses and their ability to deliver touch spells, which is an attack roll, use steady aim, shared senses, and have the pigeon land on someone's head then deliver shocking grasp at advantage, which then adds sneak attack as a damage multiplier. 2. Take metamagic adept for subtle spell, go into the ballroom as one of the guests, subtle spell Chill Touch that states ” You create a ghostly, skeletal hand in the space of a creature within range.” so there is no visual effect that leads it back to you, and with subtle spell cannot be detected or counter spelled normally. 3. Quandrix Strixhaven Background and Take Strixhaven Mascot at 4th lvl. All the other options apply, but now you have a mascot as get out of jail free card when it Burrows through the wall and teleports you out. all of these abuse steady aim, or not being identified as a threat. Either way adding sneak attack to attack spells as a damage multiplier is fantastic.

[@brucehalden6148]

"It doesn't make a lick of sense" My man, how about I introduce you to the Mongols?

[@davidfarnham5623]

this is the interaction behind the "double phantom" rogue build that breaks DPS in tier 3 and 4 play

[@COBsomeone22697]

I'm so glad you finally talked about this combo. I've been having my party deal with a mysterious French Horse Rouge using this exact mechanic to cause havoc on the battlefield

[@paulbadtram748]

Brother's character had this in the game. We started naming is his horses by numbers.

[@cameronschmid4773]

Highway Rider Rogue from Grim Hollow is literally why this was built. Running one right now and that has been such a useful tool!!!

[@louisbenson3321]

Reminds me of an old saying... "If something is dumb, but it works, is it really dumb?"

[@dandondon]

Just getting back into DND, and found your channel keeping me entertained. Thank you

[@goldenmidnightentertainmen2043]

I remember trampling a bunch of skeletons with a phantom steed as an arcane trickster, good times.

[@drewberrycrunch1417]

I think what breaks a rogue more is being an elf or half elf and taking the elvin accuracy feat. Then you have triple advantage on basically everything forever.

[@nebei3740]

There is a way to break rogue even more by weaponizing the reaction to get a second sneak attack because raw you can sneak attack once per turn not once a round the most realiable ways to do this are Haste (attack with your haste action and ready your real action to attack on a really easy trigger) Multiclass into berserker barbarian (Works almost the same but you attack with your frenzied ba attack and ready action) Multiclass into sorcerer or get metamagic adept (attack with your ba by quickening booming blade or green flame blade + ready action) Multiclass into echo knight (place your echo to trigger a lot of reactions or use action surge to ready your action) Sentinel + bugbear (hide behind your allies and when they get hit you get a reaction attack)

[@pencilbender]

As a dm, I know how to build my bandits now.

[@nomasan]

I would interpret it as "If your player hasn't moved from their space" and adding "you cannot move willingly from your space until the end of your turn"

[@raconiii2701]

Did this about 5 months ago as a goblin with an alicorn mount. Terrorized everything as the nightmare in the sky.

[@W0lfMan26]

you try this at my table... I'll laugh for one encounter, then I'll just threaten to do it to them if they continue.

[@jarlock2969]

The moment he said " If their mounted" me as a DM went Oh No.

[@seanblack4142]

I feel like that's exactly what Genghis Khan's cavalry did... 🤔

[@jbaughman7097]

I'm glad to see this combo see the light of day

[@thefollowingisatest4579]

An accurate recreation of the power of mounted archery.

[@KittyGamer1514]

*rouge chuckles in riding a dragon* *Bard chuckles in 'riding' a dragon*

[@byronwaddell4097]

I think that a series about how to counter this type of things and other monsters would be cool

[@goldenegg8of100]

A gnome with a crossbow riding a goat 🐐

[@Wingdings_man]

weird things idea: the concentration killer step 1: pick up the telekinetic feat step 2: acquire a weapon step 3: the next time you get in a fight with another magic user, use your at will invisible hand to drop the improvised weapon. now they have to make a save to keep concentration. since this is described as at will and not needing concentration, you can do this, even not on your turn.

[@andresi2002]

The moment dnd min/maxers discovered the fighting tactic that took down literally countless empires

[@olu550]

There was a pair of criminals that did something similar, one shot people from the trunk of a car while the other drove

[@krysbingham2501]

Grim Hollow has a subclass called Highway Rider rogue, who can even move when initiative is called and getting a horse is their whole gimmick. They just got even more batshit insane

[@IdiotinGlans]

"It doesn't make any sense" Laughs in Tatars

[@richskov5040]

I can't wait for the vldl guys to use one of these

[@drpl4gue908]

So this is where the renegade fighter got that sniper ability from, cool

[@abj6920]

This just made me realize how strong the Ritual Caster feat is. At fifth level, as a non caster, you can use spells full casters get at that level.

[@mortalitydoesstuff8965]

Mounted longbow-wielding elf rogue with elven accuracy and sharpshooter

[@cmdmd]

That landed on my “it’s your ONLY speciality” or outright banned pile. Then, I allowed it and simply calibrate the encounters with limited space (rocks, trees and other obstacles) to make the galloping guy a target for every opportunity attack imaginable. Encounters can be balanced quite easily. Also, Mongols used to do that, but a short range and at closed-hauling angles. Once you start opening the angles, your precision drops greatly.

[@benjin3993]

Double phantom rogue for the win

[@robbinridunk]

Welp, never thought I’d be making a Cavalier/Arcane Trickster, but here we are.

[@zauromoun]

Bow Knights in Fire Emblem:

[@Themohr]

Sounds to me like this is how you build effective Mongolian horse archers

[@CKnightZero]

Do this as a Halfling riding a Mastiff, now you can do this practically anywhere in any situation since the dog is just a medium creature.

[@RyanAndyBob]

This is why Ride was a skill check in 3.5e

[@Daikon_Micucci]

Make it one of those two- or one-wheel skateboards, and you won't be stopped.

[@steelshade]

I'm imagining a horse sprinting full out, slamming on the breaks just long enough for the rider to steady-aim-shoot, then sprint off again, haha! But as many have pointed out the Mongols had this down pat.

[@leodouskyron5671]

It is the Phantom Horsemen combo when you use the Rogue Phantom subclass. But sneak attacking every turn is normal - just that high speed and then the adding sneak attack to a second person makes it a bit broken.

[@GuyIncognitoNZ]

My ranger rogue used this feat constantly from a flying carpet using sharp shooter feat! Taking out enemies before rest of party even made it into combat range!

[@adamgarcia5616]

I wouldn’t allow this at my table but I see what you did RAW

[@VanKlaus]

Love the F-zero ost in the background ❤

[@cconnorss]

Treantmonk did this build from one of his Discord members, with EXACTLY Phantom Steed from a ritual casted feat by a rogue. The rogue who actually went 1-20lvl pure rogue.

[@13lackhood]

Gonna try this out in our DM´s next meme game

[@droolhd]

Double Phantom! Let's goooo

[@thenugget1991]

I like pairing steady aim and tabaxie. Feline agility one turn. Stay still for steady aim, which allowed for feline agility next turn. Again. And again.

[@MafiaCow01]

I can't imagine being steady if your horse is galloping about...

[@MyAramil]

Might actually use this against my players in an eberron game. Imagine a bunch of halflings on velociraptors riding about doing this.

[@bitterblossom19]

So this is where one of my players got the idea from lmao. I was wondering why he was asking if it was ok to use during our session zero last night. Really cool and on flavor with their Mongol inspired rogue/fighter build. Can't wait to try it out myself.