The Rise & Fall of On Screen Fantasy

[@A.Campbell]

As a teenager in the 90s I was bullied for loving "nerd" stuff, now I'm being bullied out of the stuff I loved

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

This one hits home.

[@tagg1080]

You hit the nail on the head with a lot of things. When I tried to explain to my wife why I hated the star wars sequels so much, it was because they basically broke huge sections of continuity. The fun part of fantasy is seeing how different problems can be solved by different people in a different world. Breaking the rules of that world really degrades the experience

[@Garner2415]

Welcome back, sir! We've missed you.

[@DonnaKWeaverAuthor]

Thank you for this! You've verbalized what bothered me about the characterizations. It's stupid to alienate a built-in audience.

[@Morames]

Yeah, I think that’s it. I couldn’t put my finger on it before, but they didn’t just change the plot of tWoT but butchered the people living those stories to where even Brandon saying, ‘it’s a different turning of the wheel’ doesn’t help. If it’s a different turning use different characters and names.

[@GMarieWrites]

I totally agree - I am a little older in you (in college when Willow came out) and remember so much how you kept your love for fantasy hidden from view. Storytelling on the screen overall has gone off a cliff, and recent fantasy has been deeply disappointing. The Shannara series comes to mind, along with everything you said. I was deeply incensed by the changes to WOT on screen. It totally nullifies the plot.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I watched Shannara all the way through. I read the books, but while I remember Elfstones fondly I wasn't super attached. I enjoyed the adaptation and saw it as a full reboot. It was fun, and some of the characters was good. WoT feels spiteful.

[@DavidWisehart]

The word "okay" is more than 180 years old. It's older than a lot of English words commonly accepted by fantasy readers. Around the same time "okay" was coined, Charles Dickens coined several words now in common parlance: flummoxed, the creeps, devil-may-care, abuzz, etc. The word "boredom," which Dickens popularized, was coined about ten years before "okay." While many fantasy fans are not okay with "okay," they would be even less okay with medieval fantasy rendered in Old English: "Hwæt. We Gardena in geardagum, þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon, hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon..."

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

IMO the age of the word doesn't matter nearly so much as the origin and use, and whether or not people know about it. I will never get taken to task for using the word boredom. No one has ever given me grief about it across several million pages of published fiction. Plenty of them have called me out on okay. Had they not it wouldn't even be on my radar.

[@Morames]

I was honestly wondering about that. It’s funny the dialog we tend to get stuck on.

[@DavidWisehart]

@@ChrisFoxWrites Yeah, I hear you. A fantasy reader called me out in a review for using "okay." I searched the text and didn't find the word. I did use "all right" in the same context, so that was probably what he was referring to. Sometimes you just can't win.

[@LV99guy]

I think you are right the golden age of fantasy in TV and film has come and gone. But to be fair, it could come back, just needs a fresh story. Not an adaptation. Willow worked for me because it felt fresh (watched it only recently as an adult for the first time). All it takes is someone telling their own story and not anothers.

[@DanAbsalonson]

Good rant. Totally agree with everything you said. Thank you for putting it out there. It was cathartic to hear you walk us through it. My kids are also frustrated with movies they watch after reading the books. “Why did they change that?!” They scream. :) It is so frustrating.

[@h.godftw6498]

With due respect. Verbal anachronisms such as that can also be found in Tolkein’s writing: “They all ducked, and many fell flat on their faces. The dragon passed like an >>express train

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

There's no need to preface anything toward me with respect. I'm just some rando with a beard. =) You make a great point, but even Tolkien was capable of making mistakes. That line is, to my mind, a mistake. I have to deal with the fallout from angry readers in a way he never did. People can stalk me on social media, and email me directly to tell me about mistakes, while reading them in real time. I stand by what I said. If you include verbal anachronisms that are not at home in your fantasy world fans will definitely 100% take you to task for it.

[@ChippyPippy]

That sounds like a visual description from the author to the reader and not something that someone in the world actually said. So I don't see how it would break emersion. If anything it paints a clear picture of how fast the dragon was traveling.

[@h.godftw6498]

@@ChippyPippy hmmm, i sort of disagree… but i do not think you’re wrong. (Cause why un-complicate things now, right?!) For me, the author never identified himself, or from when he/she was relaying the tale… so it stands to reason they’re present in the era in which they’re describing. For instance, were they to be telling the story to other middle earthers, how would they reference Express train? I guess it all depends on how you digest stories. Personally I don’t necessarily consume the content as though i were being directly spoken to, but rather more as historical matter that i just happen to be reading. But there’s no right or wrong. I just thought it was an interesting simile to find in the number one fantasy book of all time.

[@h.godftw6498]

@@ChrisFoxWrites ​ oh no, sir. Totally disagree… in fact your insistence that you don’t require my respect now ironically demands my respect… sorry… that’s just the way it is… i respect you. And there’s nothing you can do about it. I mean, my comment wasn’t really in challenge of what you said… even if it kind of comes off that way. As an aspiring writer myself, i think adhering to tight and carful parameters to keep people’s positive attention is paramount. Really, why I commented was to relay how interesting it was that even Tolkein was sorta shaky on this rule. Personally i do agree with a severe deficit in good fantasy content…, but where we differ, i think, is that i’ll overlook a lot of those issues just for the esthetics, and you seem to stick more to your guns and reject those slip ups. 🤷🏾‍♂️ I guess I’m a little more desperate than you are! 😉 Also… don’t watch willow. 😔 it is as you feared.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

@@h.godftw6498 Great discussion all around. @chippy Pippy because when readers are immersed they don't want to be reminded that the real world exists.

[@Xerophun]

Post-modernism and Fantasy don't mix. Fantasy is a slow burn and requires wonder and myth in order to resonate. It's the oldest fiction genre for a reason. It's about the natural order of things, whatever/wherever those things are. Post-modernism is about cheap thrills and entertainment for entertainment's sake. The content of the story doesn't matter. You can't have a cohesive lore and world when it's just variety for the sake of vanity. That circle doesn't square.

[@timothyrussell1179]

You are absolutely correct. And, it needed to be said!!

[@tearstoneactual9773]

Oh yeah, about Dune. Good God the 2021 Dune was awesome. I felt really transported to another time and place. I really loved it, and the design/look/feel of everything. I am chomping at the bit for part 2. That was freaking *magic* again.

[@kerrissedai6857]

The 1984 David Lynch version did a lot of heavy lifting for the Villaneave version. They also had a huge budget. Amazon made a mistake by buying LOTR. If WOT had LOTR + WOT budget we would have gotten a more faithful adaptation. GOT had 50 pages of book per episode where as WOT had 200 pages to adapt per episode.

[@thegreatandterrible4508]

Ok is actually short for "oll korrect", which was itself part of a trend of misspelling things to make slang And, you can't actually take that sort of thing to its logical conclusion. English could not possibly exist in a lot of these time periods, so if you want the language to make sense... you can't write it. Most fiction uses the "translation convention", where you just assume that the language you're hearing isn't the language that's being spoken. Now, where THAT leads to breaking willing suspension of disbelief, is stuff like in GoT where they correct someone from saying "less" to "fewer". So, whatever language they're speaking has to have that exact same grammatical rule.

[@richardkeenan3079]

Loved this talk! Great points and I totally agree Chris! I had to totally stop watching Wheel of Time and Rings of Power show before season 1 of both was completed because they were so bad and upsetting to me as a huge fan of the books. I have not seen the Witcher show don’t really know anything about the Witcher TV show, hearing some good things though is it any good?

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I love Henry Cavill, and enjoyed the first season, though it was muddled and confusing based on the structure they chose. It wasn't apparent what time period you were in during many scenes, so we didn't know what was a flashback, and what was present day. That's not an issue in the novels, and appears to have been added so that Geralt wouldn't be the main person on screen. In short...they made it so that the show called the Witcher had less of the Witcher in it. I'm not nearly as big a fan as I am of WoT or LotR, but I empathize with Witcher fans who seem pretty upset. I watched the pilot for The Last of Us and was pleasantly surprised. The Mandalorian debuts tomorrow. We'll see if they're learning any lessons.

[@richardkeenan3079]

Ok that makes sense with some the the things I have heard! Yea we will see, I was going to ask you for some fantasy or sci fi TV shows or movie recommendations if you had any as I’m getting those creative and recharge juices flowing ;)! Yea will be interesting to see how fantasy shows continue to grow and go from here. The sad part it I feel like it’s also a perfect opportunity for someone to come in and do fantasy well even if they have to crowed fund it to be able to have complete creative freedom to do things well. We will see if anyone does this decade.

[@blakepeel6273]

Lifelong fantasy fan here. World building is one of the most important parts of a fantasy story - something that ‘normies’ don’t understand. Fantasy fans actually read the lore, they study the maps and pore over the histories of the universe they’re investing in. These shows and movies violate the lore and do a terrible job of world building, and as a result the die-hard fantasy fans (the ones who will buy the games, books, and merch) lose interest. You mentioned the fast travel thing, but I’d also like to point out that unnecessary race-swapping also disrupts the suspension of disbelief. Now, I’m all for diversity, but it has to make sense within the world you’re trying to build. An isolated fantasy village isn’t going to look like cosmopolitan NYC. People didn’t travel much in ancient times. Most people lived and died in the same place they were born, and when you change establish characters just to meet ‘diversity quotas’ it destroys your suspension of disbelief. This is something House of the Dragon actually did fairly well. They changed the race of the people in House Velaryon, but made it make sense with the bounds of the lore. Of course, you can’t bring any of this up without being labeled an -ist or a bigot 🙄 I also hate the argument that “changes have to be made in order to adapt a story to the big screen”. Too many show runners use that as an excuse to put their own narratives into something that was written by a vastly more talented storyteller. Those few films that strive to stay faithful to the lore (LotR, Dune, GoT seasons 1-5, etc.) stand head and shoulders above the rest of the bland, generic, corporatized fantasy we’re being fed nowadays.

[@bellcreativecommunications6885]

OMG! After watching this I realized I was (and still am) a closet fantasy nerd! I loved almost all of the movies you talked about! The first Clash of the Titans was awesome! And stuff with dragons? I was IN. I never connected the dots until this very moment!

[@1monki]

Thanks for the insightful video

[@tomh.6261]

You are spot on. Is clear to me that the writers of many franchises are NOT fans and have not read the source material. I feel like they were bought in to inject left politics into everything. It is so tiring. I'm happy that Henry Cavill is a Producer in Warhammer. I love that IP and I have hope he will keep it on track!

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I rejoiced when I heard not just that he was involved, but how. If they let him helm that it will crazy good. I'm sure he must have watched the fan films. Pair him up with those people, and just get out of the way and count your money...

[@wendygoerl9162]

Writers have been getting the shorter and shorter end of the stick for years. All the money goes to the actors and producers, and directors, and the writer gets paid pocket change and huge list of "must include" and "can't afford to shoot that." Even if a good writer agrees to do it, higher-ups will edit it, add fluff to justify the salaries of overpaid leads, and shoot scenes to "look cool" without regard to whether they fit with the story. Some even admit they don't find actors to fit the roles, they hire based on their social media following because people pay for a popular name regardless of the story. Just look at Universal Studios, who got sued (successfully) for false advertising because Ana de Armas had a scene in the trailer of "Yesterday" that got cut in the movie. The claimants' sole purpose in renting the movie was to see Ana; the story being told was irrelevant.

[@3869426384]

You don't really have to be a fan to treat adaptations with respect. And even if the writers are, the director might not be, and the execs rarely are.

[@JDBrink]

I just watched The Beastmaster this morning! First time since the mid-80s I've seen it and was surprised to see how many fun things I remembered from it.

[@ethanfreckleton6800]

Fun movie! :)

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

It holds up surprisingly well. Such a fun movie =D

[@JDBrink]

@@ChrisFoxWrites I agree. Most things turn to mush when you watch them again as an adult, but that S&S piece I still enjoyed. And the boomarang-axe, the eyeball ring, the brainworm berzerkers, all fun elements I remembered but didn't realize were all in that movie.

[@JohnInTheShelter]

Fantasy these days is so limited--it's replays of Tolkien, whose LOTR is so beloved that its fans want it replayed in different packaging over and over. Fantasy should be the ultimate wide-open genre, but it's actually the most constrained by what the audience will pay to see. Military, armies, elves, swords, sometimes dragons--that's ALL most people think of as fantasy. Look at the fantasies of Jack Vance, Ursula LeGuin, Jorge Luis Borges, Arthur Machen, John Crowley, Gene Wolfe, John Myers Myers, and on and on and on, and you see the HUGE variety. But producers and fans just want the same tropes over and over. So the sloppiness touched on in your video is inevitable, because these fantasies are not built as original worlds from the ground up, but reboots. I mean, even Game of Thrones is in part GRRM's response to Tolkien.

[@edgytypebeat781]

You're right tbh. It either replay some of the same exact elements of Tolikien's work but monetized, a grimdark/dark fantasy response, or it's polluted with trashy YA fantasy. Keyword: Trashy (I love YA fantasy but there are a LOT of sloggers), and that's mostly Netflix's fault.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I think we'll see a much greater breadth of fantasy going forward, precisely because the euro-centric Tolkien-derived stuff is now tainted on screen. But keep in mind that developing more cerebral or experimental fantasy is both expensive and risky. As production costs come down more creatives will take chances, or at least I hope so. There are a ton of great stories I'd love to see make it to the screen in any form.

[@rolanddenzel-authorcoach]

@@ChrisFoxWrites I think right now they're trying to 'stream to market,' but they don't understand viewer expectations, just a bunch of the tropes. You need to send them your book. ;)

[@GurtGobain]

I wonder what genre will be the next to enter its golden age. After Stranger Things I thought maybe we'd have a ton of new paranormal horror/thriller books, shows, and movies but it seems to have just fizzled out.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I'm wondering too! There will definitely be something, but what? LitRPG hitting the big screen? Something new entirely? I honestly have no idea.

[@tearstoneactual9773]

@@ChrisFoxWrites - Dear god, please no. LitRPG needs to die. And I say that as a Looooong time tabletop gamer, as well as player of games like Neverwinter Nights, Legend of Dragoon, Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft, etc. Now, if you want to use a game to base a story off of or drive story, that's fine. But please keep the RPG elements out of the story. The game should be completely invisible behind the scenes and should never be referenced or alluded to.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

@@tearstoneactual9773 I'm not at all into writing or reading litRPG, but I did have an absolute blast writing the Dark Lord Bert. I had a chance to poke gentle fun at all the faces I'd seen at the table over the years, and some how absurd most gaming groups are. It's satire, and I still chuckle about it.

[@Morames]

LitRPG has definitely been hit or miss and the market has been flooded over the last few years making it hard to sift the wheat from the chaff. I tend to find a good series and wait for new books, then dip my toe in when I’ve run through a series.

[@oathsworn]

Yeah, the Wheel of Time show boils my blood because those stories are so near and dear to my heart and there was no way people like Rafe Judkins were ever going to do it justice. Honestly, I enjoyed Rings of Power, but more in a 'it's so dumb, it's funny' kind of way. Every episode I sat and giggled through it, talking to the tv screen. "Uh, guys, I don't think that's how elves work." "Uh, guys, I don't think that's how volcanos work." "Uh, guys, I don't think that's how metallurgy works." What are they going to do to Mistborn?

[@LadyAstarionAncunin]

Listening to you talk about The Wheel of Time, it's clear so many Hollywood productions don't understand how inclusivity/diversity works. Unfortunately, too many productions define it in the same way that a person who is against inclusivity/diversity does: that, to add, you have to diminish or remove. But that's ineffective and unsatisfying, and I can speak for myself and many others who have expressed the same by saying that's not what most of us want. But when so many productions do things in the aforementioned way, they make it easier for those against inclusivity/diversity to act as though they are right. A good example of, say, having a female-led cast while keeping male characters strong is Wakanda Forever. Because of the real-life tragedy, the female cast had to step up to help keep moving the story forward, but there was no focus on them being women/girls. That was neither plot nor subplot. If anything, there was focus on age and traditions unrelated to gender. Women and men worked together, literally shoulder to shoulder. In fact, M'Baku got more dimension and his own continued arc; his character was enhanced. A character like Namor was understandable and sympathetic in his aims while also being presented as formidable. Ross was empathetic, helpful, and loyal, willing to risk his own freedom in order to repay a debt. And we see that T'Challa's legacy is secure. There were women in lead roles, but they were just _people_ who had to adjust and cope and transcend a great tragedy, even while struggling with the same. For that, I appreciate director/writers like Ryan Coogler, who seemed to get it. But I have seen too many Hollywood productions who don't get it. It's not to say that we should avoid the inherent difficulty women, minorities, LGBTQIA+ people, and so on face (of course not), but there are better ways to include people, ways that humanize and create space that isn't ham-fisted and/or diminishing.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

Totally agree. Shattered Gods (my fantasy) has everything represented...subtly across thousands of pages. In my space fantasy some of it is so subtle that only people in the chosen groups seem to pick up the clues. That's how it should be done, and it should be done AFTER a great story and characters are present. They skip all that, fill some diversity quotas, and call it a day. And, at the same time, there is a pernicious push to demonize or remove men, especially white men, in an audience that is primarily...white men. It makes no financial sense. I think movies like Top Gun and shows like House of the Dragon are going to be a wake up call. I hope so anyway. Inclusion should mean everyone.

[@HardlegGaming]

18:07 When in the WoT show did they the power was the same for both men and women? I watched the show through twice, once on my own and once with a friend, and I have no idea where you're getting this from. In fact, one of the animated shorts they released in between episodes specifically mention Saidin and Saidar, and talks about how they are different. Like, don't get me wrong, the show has it's problems, but I'm pretty sure that element is carried over directly from the books.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

Sure, I'm happy to explain. They didn't explicitly state the powers were the same. They removed all mentions of them being different. In the first episode we have 4 Ta'veren, not 3. In the books we know defininitively that the dragon reborn is a man. In the TV series they explicitly state that it can be a woman too. That would not be possible if the powers were divided. It's only possible if they are the same. Not once in the entire series are saidar or saidin mentioned by name, nor explored as being separate. I haven't seen any animated shorts. The TV show was awful enough all on its own. The misandry is complete, right to the end. Now Lanfear didn't cause the dark one to escape. It wasn't the forsaken. It was Lews Therin, being warned by a completely fictitious Tamrylin Seat not to bore into the dark one's prison. If this animated short presents the powers as different, then how do we explain the dragon possibly being a woman? Only Saidin was tainted. Only the men went mad. Can you tell me where any of that is mentioned in the show? I still have my notes and didn't see it anywhere. The whole thrust is men: pathetic and bad. Women: put upon saviors cleaning up after men.

[@HardlegGaming]

The TV series didn't say the Dragon could be a woman, Moiraine did. The TV show specifically said it was Rand. A big theme of Wheel of Time, in general, is how information degrades over time and distance. People in the books often misunderstand events because they happened long ago or in a distant land. You talked, in this video, about how unrealistic troop movements could take you out of a show. You said that people need to move at realistic land speeds for the time.The same thing is true of information. In a world without the internet, where books are scarce and based off legend or speculation, I don't expect the characters to have a complete understanding of everything. It would be unrealistic if they did. So when Moiraine says something wrong, I treat it as her being wrong, not as the show re-writing the lore; especially when the show proves otherwise. Also, as a side note, It's strange to me that you'll accuse the show of painting women as saviors, and then ignore the fact that both Moiriane and Siuan are shown explicitly to be wrong about both The Dragon and they Eye of the World. The show positions them not as saviors, but as overconfident leaders prone to mistakes and misinformation. If The Eye was indeed a seal to the Dark One's prison, as it seems to be in this adaptation, then they didn't help anyone, they lead Rand into a trap; a trap that he escapes entirely on his own, I might add. Like, yeah, Lord Agelmar runs foolishly into battle and gets himself killed... but so does his sister. The mistakes of the women and the men are balanced in the show, which fits the theme of balance that WoT has always had. Don't get me wrong, the show does a lot of things wrong. The entire episode with Steppin was a waste of their very limited time. But I really don't see the misandry that you're talking about. There's at least two female villains in the first season, and even the heroines make mistakes. Meanwhile Rand, Perrin, Mat, Lan, and Thom do a lot of good and noble things. They have flaws, yes, but nothing that can't be overcome in the following seasons as they grow into heroes. Oh, and final note, the Tamrylin was not made up for the show. Latra Posae Decume was a character in "The Strike at Shayol Ghul", a short story written by Robert Jordan about Lews Therin trying to seal the Dark One's Prison. Their conversation in the show mirrors what canonically happened.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

@@HardlegGaming the existence of female villains, or female characters having flaws, does not negate the open misandry throughout the series. I didn't say every woman was a Mary Sue. I said every man was a chump, and most are just bad people. In the books Moraine knows the dragon is a man. Period. This is incontrovertible, and she knows when he was born, his rough age, and even where. It's in the prophecy. She knows the dragon is a man, because Lews Therin was a man, and the prophecies, which she spent a lifetime studying, are very clear on this point. You know why it was changed, and acting like you don't is intellectually dishonest. It was changed because the dragon being a man isn't considered inclusive. There is a literal "the future is female" movement pushing changes to as many IPs as they can get their hands on. Lan was ruined and sidelined. Rand was ruined and sidelined. Tam was ruined and sidelined. Master Luhan was just removed. Mat was ruined and sidelined. Abell Cauthon was ruined and sidelined. Perrin was ruined and sidelined. Agelmar was ruined and sidelined. Gawyn was just removed. Galad was just removed, along with Rand meeting Elayne, one of the most pivotal fan favorite moments in the series. Logain was great, but only because he was there to be a foil to the Aes Sedai, and was already in chains. At the end when Rand should have used the Eye of the World to destroy the trolloc army in Tarwin's Gap who does that? Consider the books. Consider Egwene's ability at that point. She hasn't even been to the White Tower. She can make a light, and that's basically it in the books. Nyneave has some power...when she is angry. But both are effectively children. In the show they not only have use of the power, but are also skilled with the blade. Egwene was made more powerful at Rand's expense. This is again an incontrovertible fact. Lews Therin was a hero, who fought and won a war to save creation. It wasn't his choice to bore into the dark one's prison, and retconning it clearly fits the same agenda as every other male change. The final straw? Rand's "dream vision" at the end is that he's trying to get Egwene to stay home and be a farm wife. The man is, once again, nothing but a drag and limiting factor on the woman. How much more on the nose can you get? Rand was borderline effeminate. He whined and cried and acted petulant the entire time. The scenes in the beginning with his father that would have set him up as a strong protagonist were outright removed. His father in the books cut down a dozen trollocs to Rand escape. In the show he couldn't handle one. He was basically incompetent. The themes are there plain as day, especially when contrasted to shows like Game of Thrones, which actually have strong male characters. You might not see it, but a larger and larger segment of the audience is sick of it, and that's why that show and the RoP bombed so hard. None of what you said explains any of the changes in a way I understand. Moraine has access to the libraries in Tar Valon, and has been studying since the beginning of her quest in New Spring. Moraine knows exactly what the dragon is, just not which of the three young men. That was the mystery, one they discarded. At no time did she ever consider it being a girl. She tried to get Egwene and Nyneave to remain behind originally, and only accepted both because of their tremendous potential. I'd love to hear you explain how a woman being the dragon reborn makes the slightest sense given the lore in the books. Also, if you have a link to the short story you mentioned I'd appreciate it. I'd love to go read it. I have a hard time believing it has a woman warning Lews Therin not to brashly free the dark one, and then him arrogantly and rashly charging in to do exactly that, as that directly retcons the lore around the forsaken.

[@3869426384]

What bugged me about the WOT adaptation was the racial diversity. Emond's Field is supposed to be an insular, isolated little town in the middle of nowhere. It's a minor plot point in the first book. But the show version seemed to have enough prominent black characters to be a major modern urban center like London or New York. Even though I'm a black dude, I was still rolling my eyes. I'm not saying every show or movie that racebends characters for no good reason is bad*. I liked The Batman. But I've noticed a strong correlation, especially for fantasy and sci-fi works. I'm not even a big fan of the WOT books. *I'm pretty sure that it's often to distinguish itself from other recent adaptations. Batman 2022 is the 3rd big-screen version of Batman in 10 years, for example. But WOT - and Rings of Power - don't have that excuse.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

Imagine if Perrin, Nyneave, and a few families had been black, and everyone else was white in the Two Rivers. Or everyone had been black including Rand. The borderlands were Asian, the Seanchan were Indian, and the Aiel were Arabic. Everyone would know exactly where they were, and which culture was which. As it stands there's nothing to separate the Two Rivers from Camelyn from Sheinar. Forced diversity made me roll my eyes, but I didn't mention it in the video because it's so easy for marxists to use it to label all criticism as racism.

[@yonderboygames]

I ended up liking House of the Dragon. It wasn’t perfect but I enjoyed the storytelling.

[@davidjones4515]

Man, I so wanted to like the Wheel of Time show. JordanCon was the first con I ever attended and I still go most years. If only they had stuck to the books! But such is the great lament of the avid reader.

[@ubik2388]

This is what happens when "the agenda" is more important than telling a good story. I'm fine with making changes because you are going from one medium to another (blending minor characters into a single character because of budget for example) but changing a major character in order to push an agenda is a problem. And it isn't only in fantasy (I won't mention what was done to a certain Jedi).

[@wpelfeta]

To be honest, I think the writers are just bad and "the agenda" is being used as a crutch. They attach all the tropes to a character to make a "badass" character and then call it a day without actually doing the work to characterize them and build them up organically. It's what happens when you corporatize entertainment and everything is done without passion.

[@Cableguy15]

@@wpelfeta Just want to add on to this. The writers who do happen to have talent often don't seem interested in the series that they're writing for. It's the classic case of the dedicated writer who does a terrible job on their class essay, but comes alive for their own story. But big-wig execs only want to take risks on series that they are certain will succeed. This means fewer new IPs and more nostalgia-based works. And these older works often end up with showrunners, directors, writers etc. who have no love for the source material, and often times just had their assistants tell them the story/lore! Not a good recipe for success.

[@wanderingsoles]

Hopefully, some companies will see the money to be made by honoring popular IP. There is certainly money to be made and hopefully the all might dollar will actually have a positive influence (it rarely does).

[@TimothyNiederriter]

I'm not really a fan of any genre for its own sake, but the closest I come to being a genre consumer is fantasy. I don't read much epic fantasy anymore, because I realized it's not to my taste after far too long trying to get into the big names in the sub-genre. I like (often darker), more fast-paced fiction so the old heroic fantasy tales are what I try to emulate these days. I lead with that to say that I've got a slim field to pick from for stories that the wider audience doesn't even know exist, and I also don't consider film to be the be-all and end-all of any fiction genre. Words in the right order form the core of the vast majority of stories, so I think the franchise madness of sequels and remakes and reboots as a means to cash in with old ideas is the bigger problem for the huge audience movies and TV shows. The use of representation as a replacement for good storytelling is ridiculous, though I think it would be cool to make good stories with wide representation as well. New stories need a chance, and it sounds like this Wheel of Time show tried very hard to NOT be the books, which seems pretty silly to me. I'm not a big fan of the books and wasn't going to watch the show anyway, changing it to be something the books aren't seems silly. Well, you posted a long video, so I wrote a long comment. Thanks for the video, sir.

[@nathaniel4334]

Spot on!

[@captainnolan5062]

I am a long term fantasy fan and, yes, you are on point. The current problem is the infusing of Woke sensibilities into everything. If they would just stick to the original lore and film the original story things would be fine.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I think the era of great fantasy is gone. They have literally codified diversity into casting at a scene level. Game of Thrones couldn't be made today.

[@leafwind2822]

It's a malignant form of feminism, that puts men down as if that uplifts women.

[@celindalabrousse9353]

So, this is why it's always better to watch before you read, because often you can go from one to the other but not back again. You talked about fantasy and the wheel of time, but I could say the same thing about what happened with vampires after Twilight and so on. The fact that fantasy and science fiction are both billeted under the same subject still regardless of how many subgenres are under them says something. I think that sometimes as fans we have to be happy that "the powers that be" made something. It might not be as good and yes, it can gut characters and storylines and all of it. We can focus on they put too much sex into Bridgeton, or we can focus on the fact that an amazing books series was made into a movie so more people are reading the book and other books like it. Look at Percy Jackson, they are now trying for a TV series because they messed up the first movie, killed it for the sequel, pulled off a sequel somehow and then killed it again. But some things are too powerful to die. There are only a handful of shows that compare with the books. Most of those the movie came first. Thanks for the outlet and the history of movies. And Willow is, ok. If you liked what they did to Dark Crystal then Willow will be fine? But if you want them to be true to the lore and characters watch something else.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I really liked the new Dark Crystal. Was sad it got cancelled. I'm hearing good things about House of the Dragon.

[@celindalabrousse9353]

@@ChrisFoxWrites I liked the first episode of House of Dragons, but I think that’s because I loved seeing Matt Smith in a new role. It was nice to have a water cooler fantasy show. Maybe they will redeem themselves. Cross fingers.

[@notraxxful]

Willow is a dumpster fire.

[@JonBaldie]

I read an interesting piece by an investor saying that capital moves in and out of industries in big multi-decade cycles. In the movie industry, we’ve seen billions of dollars chasing after the success of the Marvel movies, but this means there’s now a glut of supply of crappy media that people don’t want to watch. We’re seeing capital leave the media/movie industry now, and I predict we’ll start to see tighter, more leaner productions, of higher quality. Something like the golden age of television series in the 2000s. In short, you are totally right @chrisfoxwrites that there is a glut of writers who don’t appreciate the source material and want to imprint their own political biases into the work. I feel for any writer who gets laid off-but the industry needs to return to entertaining the audience, not lecturing at us.

[@UrbanVerse69]

I've pretty much checked out of any form of mainstream entertainment these days. Far too much agenda and horrible storytelling out there to bother wasting money. I started noping out after The Farce Awakens; went in cautiously optimistic and came out very much not liking it; so glad I never went back for any of the other Disney fanfic projects. These days I tend to only watch new stuff coming out of Japan, or stuff that is dated before 2015ish, if not from the 80s and 90s. Pretty much anything modern just annoys me at best and outright makes me hate it more often than not. Last couple of years I've been developing my own replacement setting for Star Wars through various stories I've written and tabletop RPG games I'm developing.

[@wanderingsoles]

Excalibur had fun magic with Merlin... not as visual but still mysterious.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

It also had bewbs, which I had never seen before.

[@vindolanda6974]

Excalibur has brilliant visuals. Most shots look like dark fantasy or Pre-Raphaelite paintings.

[@3dchick]

Thank YOU. Drives me INSANE when fantasy (or non-earth-based sci fi) uses ok. Gah!

[@christinec28]

Ehhhhhhhhh to each their own. I fecking loved Rings of Power, and I'm a big Tolkien fan. I never expect visual media to be 100% faithful to books/written media. Life is more fun that way, tbh.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

It's nice hearing this perspective. Like I said in the video...I liked the Witcher. But some media I am just too attached too. Lord of the Rings. WoT. Star Wars. It's a religion to us, sadly. How do you reconcile lore changes? For example it took 90 years for Celebrimbor (sp) to make the rings according to the books. I loved the Peter Jackson trilogy, and I'm still grumbling about no Tom Bombadil. Way too attached lol.

[@LarsLeonhard]

You hit the nail on the head on so much of what you said. I am not one to have read Wheel of Time, but even without reading it I could sense all the agenda and poor writing and direction of the show. I don't think I can suffer season 2. Same with Rings of Power. I just can't stomach season 2. Willow I too am shying away from. It's mind-boggling to me, that everything has become so agenda-driven in both comics, Tv-series and movies, that there is so little going on right now, that I am finding other venues to feed my curiosity. For example watching and re-watching a bunch of Japanese samurai movies right now and Korean thrillers, that I have had a penchant for in a couple of decades. The sad thing is all the vitriol surrounding these formerly great franchises. Fan-baiting and fan-shaming is happening so much. And entertainment is now a battleground between leftists and right-wingers. Personally I have always been left-wing, open-minded, for diversity in our culture and pro-immigration and basically let's face it, a socialist. So it is extra peculiar that when I voice my opinion on agenda-driven entertainment, that I end up being called everything from homophobe to racist. I mean I fought against stereotypes my whole life. But here we are in in the 2020s and I meet the most vitriol from people I am supposed to agree with nominally. Even to the point of people aggressing and blocking me. And I don't really speak up that often. Somehow our great franchises seem to have drowned together with common ability for discourse and even just common courtesy. We used to be able to argue about things and disagree without trying to destroy our counterparts. Welcome to social media, I suppose. I am happy to see what has been dubbed "woke" culture is actually failing a lot across the board. People are fed up. Hopefully it can lead to some positive change. Sadly I fear it will not be that easy. There is a lack of competition in the market sphere and Amazon, Netflix and Disney are pursuing the same agendas for the most part. Luckily there are a few gems still here and there in the fantasy or sci-fi sphere. Some stuff I enjoyed recently. Dune - as you said - mindblowing to me. House of the Dragon - I totally loved that and read the book as well. The Expanse was a great show that ended about a year ago; truly awesome. One more thing; before sci-fi or fantasy, I was more than anything a comic book nerd, both the European stuff and Marvel comics. Especially X-Men. MCU was for me a dream come true and a true golden age from the first MCU movie to Infinity War. Phase 4 has largely been a disaster sadly. I even started to skip whole movie and Tv-series. If you had said 10 or 20 years ago that I would skip so many Marvel series and movies, I would have called you insane. But here we are in 2023 and I have refused to see half of MCU phase 4 and some stuff I saw I couldn't finish.... It's INSANE... I am glad we can always re-watch old stuff. Though some of my most beloved IPs like Star Wars no longer appeal to me. I used to watch the OT and PT at least once per year, but now I can't stand them anymore after the first of the sequels... [insert some crying emoji] Have a good one and sorry for the long rant!

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I think you echo what a lot of us are feeling. I've still got all my old X-Men comics from the 80s and 90s. I remember Fall of the Mutants, and X-Tinction Agenda, and all the crossovers. So much fun collecting them, and the stories were great. I haven't seen anything Marvel since Spiderman. The Eternals was awful. Like epically bad. By far and away the worst marvel movie. I'd normally have been there opening day for a new Thor or Doctor Strange movie, but I've been fooled too many times. I wasn't surprised when both crashed and burned. Their core audience is abandoning them, and the kids don't think what they're pedalling is cool. They're all into Minecraft, and Roblox, and stuff that isn't even traditional TV shows or movies. The most egregious fail was still Star Wars though. I cannot believe they killed my love for it so completely that I am not even interested in watching their new shows despite having free access. On the plus side Jedi Fallen Order was awesome.

[@LarsLeonhard]

​@@ChrisFoxWrites Sounds like we are in the same boat like you said with many others as well... I actually liked Doctor Strange and the Madness of the Multiverse. It wasn't flawless but my love for Cumberbatch and esp. Doctor Strange overshadowed the movie's shortcomings. Some cringe moments here and there, but not messaging too hard. Eternals I couldn't finish... Thor I didn't see (no thanks), Black Widow had so many dumb elements it's hard to pick the worst one, but perhaps the headbutting a table moment... Black Widow and Scarlett I love, but that movie was almost Eternals bad. Shang Chi started out well but became the usual feminist ride. Did anyone notice that he actually didn't solve or win or do ANYTHING in basically the whole movie except the early bus scene. I did not see She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel as I was clearly not the audience. Loke and Wandavision had some good things but ultimately drowned in bad writing and bait and switch (Loke). I also skipped Hawkeye due to the bait and switch and am glad I did. Phew... such a clusterf*ck ... Star Wars - I have seen the new stuff. I liked a season or two of the Mandalorian, but Boba Fett DESTROYED the character, Andor was meh. But nothing compares to Obi-Wan, that was so bad and cringe it was basically competing with the sequels as to who is the biggest wrecking ball of the Star Wars IP. ........ With the advent of X-Men going into the MCU, I can't help but fear how they will be handled. Sadly I fear the Fox days - as imperfect as they are - will be remembered (at least by me) as the golden age of X-Men on the large screen .... Enough ranting - have a great one, Chris. Happy New Year and take good care! P.S. I liked Del Toro's Pinocchio (though it was a little sad) if you want to watch something ...

[@travissullivan6575]

Not even to mention the aiel having 'red hair' as their only distinguishing feature.

[@BooksRebound]

I desperately want a Malazan Book of the Fallen adaptation. But it would need to be a whole Malazan Cinematic Universe because the world and stories are so huge and epic.

[@manymusings]

100% spot on. Sadly the lack of writing skill extends to all other genres too. They seem to fail to understand the importance of character arcs. Not to mention everything they are doing now are remakes. Creativity is is MIA when it comes to creating anything new.

[@LadyAstarionAncunin]

I would very much like to see exploration of other forms of fantasy (and science fiction). I very much enjoy reading fantasy from all parts of the world, but there seems to be a continued focus on European-based fantasy. While I enjoy European-based fantasy as well, there is so much more of the strange and fantastical out there, most of which we've not really seen adapted to live action.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

You're the 2nd comment asking for this exact thing. I'm hoping that AI animation makes production cheaper...then we'll see an explosion of some of the more esoteric fantasy. Ursula K. LeGuin would be amazing to see on screen. She was so much of my childhood. Roger Zelazny's Amber. There are so many cool stories waiting.

[@rolanddenzel-authorcoach]

@@ChrisFoxWrites Amber. Yes, please. Also, now that we can make dragons look good, where are the Pern movies?

[@ValeVin]

I was extremely fortunate in that all the kids in middle school/high school were reading Melanie Rawn or Mercedes Lackey-type fantasy novels in the halls between classes, so it felt mainstream specifically at my schools. I realize that's not normal, but it made it easy to meet fans and trade books. I've enjoyed The Witcher and most of the fantasy shows to some degree or another, though I haven't seen the last two seasons of Game of Thrones yet. That said, I didn't read Wheel of Time/The Witcher/Games of Thrones growing up, and I wasn't invested in Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings. So your specific complaints wouldn't be mine... yet. I say yet, because I'm about to see what it's like to have my own favorite fantasy series I grew up with turned into the Valdemar TV series, so we'll see how that goes.

[@3869426384]

I'm a Vorkosigan Saga fan, and I'm glad they're basically unfilmable. I simply don't trust Hollywood with the complex issues in that series.

[@MelindaKucsera]

I didn't watch Wheel of Time but I watched Rings of Power, and they butchered that lore too in ways that make no sense. And the first two episodes, which were gorgeous, were so slow and so bogged down that casual watchers who never read The Silmarillion had no idea what was going on. There also wasn't much plot in those two episodes. It was all look over here! A distraction that means nothing! And now we're sending Galadriel to Valinor because we need her to land on Numenor and we can't invent a better way to do it than have her jump ship and swim. I know so many people who watched the first episode or the first 2 and decided not to watch any more because they could not suspend their disbelief enough for this, and I totally get it. I had trouble with the first two episodes, and I have read the Silmarillion. Okay rant over. It just makes me so mad that they forgot the first rule of entertainment--you need to hook the audience. Instead, they threw pretty scenes at people and confused them. I hope they fix the issues in season 2 because season one got a lot better toward the end, but I don't know how many people who had never encountered Tolkien gave up before that though.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I used my sister as a great barometer. She was so excited about the show, but not a traditional fantasy fan. She made it 4 episodes before giving up, and told me it was just too boring.

[@MelindaKucsera]

@@ChrisFoxWrites she's right. The show was boring and it was hard to empathize with anyone except Elrond, Durin and Disa because they actually inhabit the world and move around it in ways that make sense. Everyone we cut to is moving around the continent in ways that do not make sense without a jet plane and even casual viewers couldn't help but notice that since they showed the distances on maps in the show. 🤦‍♀️ Thanks for this video because it put words to what I found most jarring about Rings of Power

[@JRoseBooks]

The slowness of new TV series drives me insane. I’ve felt for awhile they’re padding shows with slow timing, so they can fill more episodes. It makes no sense: In this modern world, everything moves so fast…and WAY too slow/empty moments makes viewers pull out their cell phones, which lowers engagement & emotional attachment. The first MANDALORIAN season comes to mind. I was going to quit it until my friends convinced me to continue.

[@MelindaKucsera]

@@JRoseBooks I agree. The pacing is way off. the first 4 episodes are slooooow with not much happening and the last few are too fast. Characters cover 600 miles in a scene cut. On horseback. And one of the riders is gravely injured. Then they got the forging of the rings, which is what the series is supposed to be about wrong, and they did it in so short a time. If only they had cut out the padding in the first 4 episodes and devoted that time at the end to what the actual show is about, the rings of power.

[@rolanddenzel-authorcoach]

@@ChrisFoxWrites haha. 5 was when it got good. But why do they make us wait? "It gets better," said the superfan (of ROP, WOT, Andor, Boba Fett, Obi Wan, She-Hulk, Sandman, The Expanse, etc.)

[@octosalias5785]

I think that the writers of this boom misunderstand that mainstream audiences like political intrigue, controversy. Its House Of Cards with Dragons, and the fantasy is secondary but enhances the drama. Like you said instead they are taking these really deep stories and writing them as generic fantasy and wondering why no one wants them.

[@Morames]

I feel like Hollywood is such a massive beast that to blame the writers isn’t 100% fair. I bet we’d get some better stuff if the execs would get out of the way. The whole doesn’t seem to understand the genre very well. We need nerds making us our content, not banks.

[@captainnolan5062]

The 1978 Lord of the Rings film by Ralph Bakshi was a financial success. Per Wikipedia, reports of the budget vary from $4 to $8 million, and as high as $12 million, while the film grossed $30.5 million at the North American box office. It thus made a profit, having kept its costs low. In the United Kingdom, the film grossed over $3.2 million.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

Thanks for providing the numbers. It's nice knowing it made money. I was more talking about the size of the cultural footprint. They played the Hobbit every Saturday at my local library, but only little kids watched it.

[@nightwriter6480]

Back in 90's in Eastern Europe, it was hard to see someone read sci-fi. Everyone was reading some sort of fantasy. This was result of communists stomping on the creativity . Sci-fi stuff could sometimes pass but fantasy was seen as decadent. So when communists disappeared, everyone had to top up on the mana it seems :)

[@brentp183]

I pretty much agree with everything you said in the context of Epic Fantasy. It's not good at this particular era. But there is some hope outside of the expanded TV scope and epic fantasy. In the past year or so three films spring to mind that bolsters me a little. The Spine of Night is a rotoscope classic Sword and Sorcery animation that evokes all the really fantastical elements of the genre dating back to the days of Weird Tales through to the animated films of the 70's such as Heavy Metal. Secondly, I would point to The Green Knight which really was a retelling of one of the first-ever fantasy tales composed in the early medieval period. Lastly, and most importantly, I have to point at Robert Egger's "The Northman" which yes is a retelling of Amleth, and by proxy Hamlet, and is marketed as a historical thriller but man is it so Sword and Sorcery driven. Egger's made it an homage to the 1982 Conan the Barbarian and there are whole scenes in there that are lifted. It is quite simply the best film I have seen in a decade and I would argue it is fantasy if Clash of the Titans is classified as fantasy. Great video!!!!

[@wpelfeta]

You're absolutely right that I did not watch Rings of Power because I got burned too hard by Wheel of Time. It's also very hard to criticize these shows, because they deflect any critique as misogyny and racism. Every time you want to make a critique, you have to choose your words carefully to not piss them off. It seems like the target audience of these shows are not fantasy lovers, because these shows are more akin to soap opera melodrama with a fantasy sheen. They don't care about the part that fantasy fans enjoy: the world building and internal consistency. They handwave away inconsistencies as small things that don't matter anyway. But it's those small details that make fantasy fantasy.

[@jessatlife]

As a long-time fantasy fan who is also a POC and a woman, I can confirm that fantasy fans love world building and internal consistency. For me, the world is as alive and dynamic as any character in the story. The problem is when someone wants to pass off their bigotry as “passion for the genre” when in reality the problem is they don’t want a non-white actor playing their precious white character. They go as far as arguing about “historical accuracy” which is not accurate at all. Unfortunately, this happens too often. Even in the comments of this post, there’s a few people accusing “wokeness” and some vague “agenda” for what is obviously poor execution from not understanding the genre, as Chris Fox mainly argues. Accusing “wokeness” and “the agenda” is such a lazy, non-nuanced take on the issue, but I digresss… 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@wpelfeta]

@@jessatlife You're right. And actually, I think I'm not angry so much at the "wokeness" as being angry at how poorly they execute it. I would definitely support having strong female leads and minority representation in fantasy and media in general. But the lazy way in which they have been shoe-horned into shows is what I can't stomach. Racial demographics are a part of world building, so I think it is a valid criticism when a show is adding multiethnic casts without proper consideration for how to structure the world for the diversity to make sense in the context of their story. For example, in Wheel of Time, I loved the cultural diversity of the Aes Sedai. It just makes sense. Tar Valon is a melting pot. It's some of the other areas that don't make sense.

[@MelindaKucsera]

​@@jessatlife You're not digressing! It's an important point, and a lot of commenters are missing it. Wokeness is not the problem. I thought the Wakanda movies proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. But I guess some folks didn't get the memo or see the movies.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I hear what Jessica is saying, and I'm happy to explain the woke comments in a lot more detail than you generally see. Saying woke is a simple way to encapsulate about six years of events that many of us have been impacted by. It's shorthand, and like all such terms is radically overused. The basket of things we include in woke are emasculating all men, or making them evil,, and demonizing masculinity in general, while also having a poorly written and executed story that prioritizes diversity and inclusion. When that story inevitably fails, because it was bad, we the fans are labeled racist, misogynist, transphobic, or whatever other insult can be safely used to other us and dismiss our opinion. House of the Dragons is, by all accounts, very well written. It is inclusive and diverse. The original series had an onscreen sex act between two men. Yet they also take the worldbuilding incredibly seriously, and reflected the books exactly as written. The Wheel of Time went fully woke. It butchered the men to prop up the women, and compromised the story in support of modern ideology. It fully removed the small town that was the heart of the story, specifically to present a more diverse world. These are facts. I've got about three more hours of footage with specific examples. I'm real tired of being gaslit. I'm really tired of having my character questioned, and so are many, many other people. Wokism has become a religion, one that absolutely loves to use moral purity to bully and bludgeon people. This is a topic I can speak about at length. I'm very passionate about it. My son is 3 and I have never seen the world so fractured and divided. Maybe stating this makes me lazy, or non-nuanced, but hopefully I stated my case adequately enough in the video that you see my point. If not I'm happy to explain further, or talk about any specific points. But if you're going to use the word bigotry, and suggest it's present in these comments, you really need to specify which. I don't see any or I would have removed it. If I missed anything let me know. In the past I've seen many baseless claims leveled. I hope it isn't that.

[@kit888]

Lots of movies at different times. Prince Valiant 1997. Excalibur 1981. Ladyhawke 1985. Labyrinth 1986. Dragonslayer 1981.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I edited down my list as I didn't have time to include them all. The 80s really were rich with fantasy movies. I loved Beastmaster.

[@chrysewymer9009]

@@ChrisFoxWrites That was the one I was thinking of! Beastmaster

[@3dchick]

Also, sadly, I couldn't even get past ep 2 of Wheel. I loved some of the casting (for me Lan was my favorite actor for the part), but they have to also be able to act, and Rand's actor was awful. Yes, I think they made him purposefully less likeable, as well as less powerful, but I think some of it is he's just not a good actor. Like casting didn't care if they could act. I definitely think Hollywood (for lack of a better term) wants paint-by-numbers success. GoT was dark, let's make this dark, etc. And, yes, without someone who is an *actual fan* of whatever it is in charge, I'm afraid it will all be terrible.

[@tearstoneactual9773]

I never really had an interest in Wheel of Time books, but NOW... I really wanna read them. The amazon series I thought was alright, but I could still see the agenda. But now it's so apparent. Now, I do like the Willow series. Some. You'll probably hate it. It does feel like there's an agenda there. They do mix in some modern elements I don't think belong. But they do also honor a lot of stuff that came before. I think it's got wide appeal and it's a fun fantasy adventure series. I'm not sure I could recommend it to you. I enjoyed a lot of Rings of Power, but I do also feel there was an agenda there, but less so. They did mess up some of the lore, as far as I know. But unless it's as bad as Wheel of Time, I can probably overlook it. Speaking of another series. The show Legend of the Seeker was just suuuuch a disappointment. I twas supposed to be an adaptation for the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind (who was an unabashed fan of Wheel of Time)... they just... messed up so much.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I was so disappointed in Legend of the Seeker. I was expecting Game of Thrones and ended up with sub-par Xena. As for the Wheel of Time books there are some really bad ones in the middle, be forewarned. I loved 1-6. I loved 11-14. I endured 7-10.

[@Morames]

Book 9 was a slog until the very end of the book when it got really interesting with some stuff that felt like, “about darn time” Willow the movie has always been up there with The Princess Bride for me. TWoT made me crazy while watching it. I look forward to new episodes of Willow. It has. Very different feel from the movies, but I also don’t pick up on the “O.K.” type stuff. But I’m a desert desperate for consumable sci-fi/fantasy rain. (But I’m scared to watch house of dragons or rings of power. I’m tired of being disappointed).

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

@@Morames Agreed on the moment in book 9. There is such an amazing scene! There are a few other moments in that stretch of books that are cool too, but not enough to compensate for the Faile / Perrin plot, nor the sheer number of chapters with Elayne pregnant, in the bathtub. I share your fear, but I've heard so many encouraging things about House of the Dragon. Fingers crossed.

[@anthonywritesfantasy]

Legend was an iconic tape in my house

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I love that kids have no idea what a tape is.

[@anthonywritesfantasy]

@@ChrisFoxWrites It's a trip! I wonder if they learn about the gramophone and the VCR in the same history module yet...

[@RivkahSong]

I grew up in the 90's and just fell in love with reading fantasy, I would go to the library with my equally bibliophile mom and check out like 12 books that I'd have fully read within 3-4 days lol. The 90's didn't have much use for high fantasy outside of books but it did have quite a bit of low fantasy in the form of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel the series, Charmed, The Craft, Practical Magic, Hocus Pocus, Jumanji, Sleepy Hollow, The Addams Family, etc. Movie and television adaptations are consistently garbage. As an avid gamer I always get so frustrated when companies try to adapt video games because they never have any respect for the source material or the fans. They want to milk a successful IP for all the cash they can but are ashamed of where they come from so they change everything about it that made it good and unique and then act shocked when it fails miserably. The Resident Evil movies and the Monster Hunter movie are especially egregious examples and it's the same way with fantasy books.

[@richardkeenan3079]

Okay Chris! In this discussion I don't know why I never watched "Seventh Son" fantasy movie form 2014 until just now.... I absolutely loved it!!! But it has such terrible ratings and reviews.... i'm a bit at a loss, to your point and this conversation are the audiences shifting to where they just don't like good fantasy movies? I'm not saying it was a perfect movie, but it nailed so much of what me as a fantasy reader loves and enjoys... I have NO clue why the reviews are so low and now they won't make more of the movies. It seems that some audiences are loving what is poorly done i.e. Rings of Power and Wheel of time show... and they are hating what is some good fantasy. Now I didn't read any Seventh Son books but it seems to me the good reviews were coming from readers of the books actually praising they did a good adaptation to movie. Love this discussion, beginning to feel like there are not more good fantasy movies because the media doesn't understand what us fantasy lovers love and enjoy, what we love and want vs. things of books and the genre also which we DON'T want them to deviate from. Have you seen Seventh Son? If not watch it! I had loads of fun watching it today! Shocked by the reviews of the movie by and large. The Lord of The Rings Extended versions are some of my favorite fantasy movies of all time.. love them so much! Trying to understand what is going on the fantasy movie and show industry. Wish we could have more good ones that are better done, unlike the Rings of Power, and Wheel of Time series where they messed it all up.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I did watch 7th Son! It would never get made today. Movies like that stopped in 2016. You can check this easily simply by picking a movie on either side of that dividing line. This applies to Marvel, Star Wars, and of course all fantasy. It poisoned the new Harry Potter movies too, which is why no one watched them. Over the past four decades a new orthodoxy, a religion without a god, has risen. This culturally marxist group literally sees the kind of fantasy you enjoy as a threat. In their world people only do things based on power. They can't understand the love you and I and so many others have for fantasy. They don't spend their weekends day dreaming, or hunting for that one movie maybe they missed for like three decades ago. They didn't suffer through Xena, or Hercules, because that was all we had lol. These people are not real fantasy fans, IMO. This is why so many people shared the Tolkien quote about evil not being able to create, only to pervert the works of good. We aren't seeing their own new strong franchises espousing their values. They're trying, but the Strange Worlds, and Mulan remakes are blowing up in their face. You can't legislate morality, and that's what they want to do. They find strong men to be a threat. They find traditional families and values to be a threat. Hollywood is sick, but here's the great news...technology is advancing. Imagine what will happen when people like us can turn our books into movies using AI assisted tools and a few friends. The good stuff will rise to the top again, the stuff made from love of the genre =) I'm going to go rewatch 7th Son. Predictable? Sure. I still enjoyed the heck out of it.

[@carlk8308]

Writers today for films are not influenced by what they have read. They are influenced by what they have watched. This is why (imho) every story looks like it's set somewhere in the Marvel universe.... Yaaawwwwn.

[@GodOfMoxie555]

Skip Willow, you will(ow) regret watching it.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I keep hearing that. I'll take it to heart.

[@ramonekiwari7196]

WOT show could have been great. It's not just fantasy, most things are made bad on purpose. They are not trying to make good entertainment, they focused on a checkbox list. There is a psychological horror game remake in the work. It's silent hill 2. Just by watching the trailer, you can see they are doing as you said unnecessary changes that kill the subtlety of the story. It's not a matter of them trying their best and falling or taking artistic liberty, no. It's just a checkbox list they follow when adopting or remaking things. It's not just fantasy.

[@DeanTheLaughingMann]

The only fantasy series as of late that I enjoyed was Wednesday. I was leery about how it would turn out, but it respected the source material enough to preserve those fundamental elements. Sure, it was focused around Wednesday Addams as the protagonist, but then a lot of us who watched the movies in the 90s felt like she was a role model. So it hit nicely. However, given how successful the show is, there's the worry that they could butcher or ruin the second season (aside from the Witcher, and Chilling Adventures of Sabrina, having this exact approach unfold, Netflix is a stickler about continuing shows that aren't bringing in subscribers or hours viewed). Willow hit me the worst because it is one of my favorite fantasy movies, and this show was just an affront to it. I would have given to see Willow Ufgood lead a show and give us representation for short people. The original movie also had women in many of the major roles (the antagonist, the antagonist's right hand/left hand, the guide, and the old wizard types in fantasy stories), and they could have had their representative "cake" and ate it too. But they just applied a modern way of thinking to it, and it shows badly. I won't spoil anything, but if you have any respect for the original movie, avoid the show.

[@matthewblankenzee5452]

I found this just now, so I'm a bit late but let's go. I have a draft of the first episode by Rafe of the WoT series. In it, he starts with Nynaeve leading a ceremony for Egwene to join the Women's Circle, a ritual/rite of passage into being a woman warrior. That really says it all. The entire fantasy book series is how Rand becomes the Dragon Reborn and defeats the Dark One at the Last Battle. So, Rafe has switched our protagonist from Rand to Egwene. Btw, in the book, right after the prologue, we see Rand and his father on the Quarry Rd, where he see's the Dark Rider for the first time. One of the first people you see in a movie is the protagonist. You don't have to time to play. So, right from the beginning the story was subverted. If Rafe wanted to tell the book series through Egwene's eyes, that would be interesting, but it wouldn't be based on the source material. On top of that, Rafe is a woke jerk. He wants to subvert every strong male character and boost every female character to be a boss girl. If he could make them gay and people of color (POC) also, he would. He said so in an interview. I don't know if you have watched any of KNIGHT'S WATCH channel but they had a video that showed who Robert Jordan thought he would cast for his own characters. They look nothing like Rafe's choices. And, the diversity of the Emond's Fielder's is just dumb. Here is a secluded village that hasn't seen the Queen's tax man for 6 generations but they all look like they are from some modern port city. The greatest faux pas is not following Jordan's world building. Fantasy only works when the world building works. You have so much to introduce and build upon that changing Jordan's vision destroys the story itself. As for where the series went wrong, I would say you are correct about Rand, Mat, & especially Perrin. Personally, I don't like any of Rafe's casting choices. The Emond Fielder's are too old. Through out the source material, it is their naiveté about women and girls that make their relationships with those they meet during the adventure, interesting and a good dose of tension. I don't like it that the Aes Sedai don't look ageless, use a star filter for sake. I feel taking the focus off of Rand hijack's the entire story. I could have created pages of discontent but I'll just finish saying that, Rafe is one of the worst storytellers and I wish he never was given this project.

[@wendygoerl9162]

I thiink the lull in fantasy can be explained by the FX. Back in the frontier days of film, FX was universally terrible, so fantasy was as good as any other genre. But then fans strted to expect more realistic portrayals, at least in "live action" films. Fantasy demands a lot of things you can't find in reality, and it's a lot harder to make a realistic-looking dragon puppet than a futuristic spacecraft model. Likewise for computer modeling, so the tech in the 1990's was "good enough" for a lot of SF but not good fantasy. As for degrading interpretations of books, that's been an ongoing problem across all genres, and it's been getting worse as the screenwriter gets progressively worse credit and control of the result as compared to the directors and producers--and even the actors. I just watched the Black Stallion (1979) on PBS this weekend, and while the cinematography's beautiful, the changes they made to the story from Walter Farley's book (Alex's high-school-age solo trip becomes a middle-school-age trip that kills his father, and the green silks that Henry wore on his last race become gold-trimmed black-and purple Mardi-Gras wear with a ridiculous helmet plume) not only made Alex into an improbable jockey, but screwed the series so badly that it would have been impossible to make Son of the Black Stallion (which required Alex's father to still be alive).

[@rolanddenzel-authorcoach]

I enjoyed WOT, sort of. I wouldn't be sad if it goes away, but I'll watch it if it keeps going. However, I haven't read WOT. From what everyone says, the original version would have made the show much better.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I find it so fascinating to hear this. My buddy Trevor and his wife are big fans of the show too, and we have very similar tastes. I wonder if I would have liked it if I'd never have read the books?

[@rolanddenzel-authorcoach]

@@ChrisFoxWrites The same can't be said of Rings of Power, though. Few who've never read the books (or seen the movies) would be able to get into the show. You have to be in the Venn overlap of those who know LOTR, those who aren't TOO precious with the material, and those with the patience to wait for it to get better. I understand, but don't agree with, your reasoning for not watching other Prime fantasy shows. I think people should watch the good ones and start, then stop, watching the bad ones so they know they f'd up

[@GuyAnthonyDeMarco]

You forgot something important -- Lord of the Rings: Return of the King won the Best Picture Oscar award, the first time a fantasy movie took the top spot.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I didn't think it relevant, but in hindsight it probably is as it shows that the consciousness was shifting. Good point.

[@morganrrhaze]

Willow had a decent start but turns into a dumpster fire so fast.

[@yaknkski]

I suffered through the rings of power series hoping it would turn into something better, but no. It was so bad I didn't even realize I'd made it to the end and watched the season finale! Just awful...

[@ethanfreckleton6800]

The only thing the new Dune is missing Sting. :-)

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

That is a weakness in the new one, true. By all rights Sting should be kind of a joke, but his version of Feyd was legit lol.

[@ethanfreckleton6800]

@@ChrisFoxWrites It was! Paul had a veritable on-screen rival.

[@lisafalter926]

Honestly, the only good fantasy show that came out this past year, in my opinion, was The Legend of Vox Machina. Everything else was mediocre at best and absolutely abysmal at worst.

[@spiffylady9465]

100% agreed. Looking forward to the second season coming out soon.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

Too many dick jokes for my tastes. My 20s self would have LOVED it because it was exactly the way we played around the table. I'm officially an old man lol. I love how popular it's become though, and I hope it gets a bunch more seasons.

[@cullenclark]

When Brandon Sanderson puts his books to film, the Golden Age will return

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

I genuinely hope so. Stormlight would be amazing. He was a producer on WoT, and encouraged us all to watch it, so I wonder what his IPs will look like on screen. Here's to hoping for the best!

[@cullenclark]

@@ChrisFoxWrites I saw that and was genuinely surprised when the directions went way different than the books. But I’m not sure he really had a lot of power to change things.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

@@cullenclark I don't blame him as he was obviously in a tough spot. I more mean that I don't expect him to have any more power over his own work unless he makes a production company of his own.

[@cullenclark]

@@ChrisFoxWrites yea I agree. I could be wrong but I think he may be trying to do that. He’s at least being very careful with whichever production company he chooses because he’s been in talks for years with different people and it seems like he’s very picky. Could be a good sign

[@ERMarrow]

I won't touch WoT or RoP. Raymond E Feist's Magician series is getting a show, I am preemptively sad about it.

[@jacktaylor1801]

I never got into GoT because it sounded too dank. If I want that, there's IRL like The News. It sounds like so many of these shows are embracing wokeism at the expense of story. I like urban fantasy, but they can't get it right, either. There's a few NF fantasy shows like the Winx Saga that might be fun, but I am steeling myself for disappointment. There are too many shows they make based on the most depressing, dark, demotivating stories possible. Plenty of UF and fantasy books are uplifting, inspiring, and happy. But no, that's not what they make. My biggest problem with The Witcher was they told the first season in reverse chronological order. It wasn't for any story reason, it was so the writers could show how clever they were. It added nothing to it.

[@JayJenningsVideos]

You checked out because a hobbit said the word Okay because that word couldn’t exist??? It’s a different world, so how do you know when words came into existence in that time and place? If a horse is a horse and a tree is a tree, and all of those things are the same, then why does there have to be a different word for okay? There shouldn’t be. Writers who create different words for common objects or sayings are just being too cute and basically breaking the fourth wall.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

Yes, it knocked me out of the story. Tolkien did an immense amount of world building, including coming up for elvish words for horse, and tree. Sounds like you aren't much of a fantasy fan.

[@JayJenningsVideos]

@@ChrisFoxWrites I've been reading fantasy since before you were born. Tolkien didn't write his books in Elvish, he wrote them in English (or, at least the copies that I read were). Are you upset that Elves and Hobbits speak English? When you're writing a book with fantasy characters like that you're translating what the characters are saying in their native tongue to what the reader understands. And since 99.9% of the words are the same, why go out of your way to make up a word for something that exists in the fantasy world as well as our real world? An example from a YA fantasy novel by David Baldacci: "She waited behind the door for a sliver and then pulled her ink stick from her pocket to leave a note. Putting her cloak into her tuck she left." So sliver is a period of time, but door is a door? You can't say pen, but you can say ink stick -- ink is the same in our world and theirs? And tuck means backpack, but cloak means cloak? When I read stuff like that, not the elvish or spanish, or whatever words for something, but just a different english word for an object, I feel like the author is winking at me and saying, "Aren't I clever?!"

[@JayJenningsVideos]

@@ChrisFoxWrites Also, thanks for the response. I love that you actually talk to your readers, even when you disagree. ;)

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

@@JayJenningsVideos Maybe you've been reading them longer, but I'll wager I've probably sold a hell of a lot more novels than you have. I deal with my fans daily, and need to in order to continue paying my bills. I have to honor lore and worldbuilding. I don't really care what you read, or like. I care about my core audience, and the things that will upset them. Ink stick and tuck are both good localisms that I'd enjoy in a story. The same is true of my fans. I use words like spellrifle for god sakes. It's perfectly servicable, and not very inventive, but everyone understands what it is and my readers are fine with it. You're allowed to have your preferences. I'm allowed to have mine. Clearly given the reviews I'd argue that a lot more fantasy fans agreed with me about Rings of Power and the Wheel of Time. Tolkien made a plot point out of a simple elvish word. Friend. Does that bother you too?

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

@@JayJenningsVideos Totally! We're passionate nerds. I love discussing this stuff like we're solving climate change or something lol.

[@TheSciFiTherapist]

Tried to watch willow the series 😢 so disappointing. I can’t get through it and I loved the movie!

[@patbou_jdrs]

Don't watch Willow, you will be really disappointed. It'bad, really bad and so sad to see what they did to it 😞

[@hannahevertson8306]

Not gonna lie on Willow. The adds I've seen alone make me not want to watch it. They don't feel like fantasy, or maybe it's more they don't feel enough like fantasy? I'm all for adding diversity, there's nothing to say these fictional worlds can't be diverse, it's the way they don't try to build believable worlds that gets me. Why do the people talk like this? Why do they explain the plot to the audience rather than show us a map? Do they not even understand what the world looks like on a map?

[@PasOdMater]

It's sad that every new fantasy series has to have 'the message' forced into it.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

But it's oh-so-satisfying watching property after property crash and burn. Disney's stock is less than half of what it was a year ago.

[@PasOdMater]

@@ChrisFoxWrites There is that silver lining. Still, I'd prefer it if I didn't have a feeling of dread come over me every time something I'm a fan of gets a new show or movie instead of the excitement I should be experiencing.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

@@PasOdMater I've been numb since Wheel of Time. I don't check out any new fantasy shows. If I hear they're making something I assume it will be not just bad, but disrespectful and outright hostile. Cinema is dead to me, sadly, and so is TV. There's plenty of Anime I haven't seen yet, and lots of stuff to rewatch, but I can't remember the last time something like Game of Thrones season 1 came out. The golden age is over. Even D&D is gone. =/

[@PasOdMater]

@@ChrisFoxWrites Yep, both D&D and Magic went super woke. Went back to grand strategy single-player games to find my free time gaming enjoyment. I found what I wanted in the independent authors (which is how I found you) and in webnovels/fanfics. They're much more to my tastes since book publishers are a lost cause due to the wall of woke white women that prevent anyone with a differing opinion past them. It's part of why we haven't gotten a hit from traditional publishers in the sci-fi/fantasy genre in years.

[@BarbuscoComics]

There's a reason they changed the books: wokeness.

[@captainnolan5062]

I did not watch any of The Rings of Power (another show that did not honor the original lore, in favor of infusing Woke sensibilities into it).

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

You are better off. Stick to your guns. I'm ignoring season 2 of WoT.

[@jimm3370]

Your 3 year old? Christmas? W/ enough $? A runway model for a wife? LIVIN' DA DREAM BAYYYBEEEE!!! OK, I'm NOT a Fantasy aficionado. I got into GOT in the 3rd season or so (maybe 2nd?). I thought it was pretty good and read the books; but I DNF'd a little into Book 4. While I'm also a FT writer (successful enuf to have met you at NINC in '19) I didn't analyze what was wrong...truth be told I was just beginning my own career and didn't have the experience in story crafting to understand why it was skipping gears. I found LOTR films got repetitive in the last 2 (who'd ever think set piece battles could get routine, huh?) OK! I'm more Jack Reacher and Travis McGee! LOL But... in the course of my career I've developed a quick, down and dirty way to tell if the writing of a show is going anywhere. It's my Super Sekrit Method Of Rating Writing™ 🤪 .... 1. Watch one episode. At the most, Two. 2. Ask yourself: 'Can I name the characters that have been introduced so far? How many are there, and how many can I name? 3. That ratio- of Name of Characters/ Number of Characters is a good way to estimate the scale of the writing. If they introduce a cast of 5 and you can only name 2, then 2/5= .4 or a score of 40%. IF after the 2nd episode (if they stayed with that same setting & characters, you're not at 80% minimum, that's baadd...) - now I say 'Name', but maybe that escaped me; but I can describe the character easily, and what they're doing in what I just watched. My wife and I do this all the time now. And we're usually right. BTW, I turned off WOT in the first half hour of ep 1. For me, a movie has to make me care about the characters. Rings Of Power kept me for season 1 b/c of the Hobbit clone girl and her trusty side kick. Derivative as hell of Frodo and Sam yeah. But I'll pass on S2. (shrug) What killed it for me is the horrid casting of Galadriel. There's plenty of good stuff out there to spend my time... Like... The Recruit on Netflix. Wow! Woke enough to be kind, but not preachy. LOVE it.

[@MelindaKucsera]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who kept watching for Poppy and Nori. I liked the Elrond/Durin/Disa scenes too but the first season should have just been Sauron in disguise convincing the elves to make rings of power, and then him twisting them to do his bidding, getting found out and having to make a quick exit to go off an make his master ring. Meanwhile, the the elves make their 3 rings in secret. And you know stick to the prologue from The Fellowship of the Rings since the show is called the Rings of Power? I don't think the showrunners watched anything Tolkien or read any of his works. I am not sure I will watch S2 unless it's free/included in my prime membership.

[@G-Blockster]

In 1978, my mom, acting on advice from a friend, exposed me to fantasy with The Hobbit. It was the first novel I had read -- devoured -- and then I spent my money earned from mowing lawns to buy The Lord of the Rings, then it was Dungeons & Dragons. Fast forward to today: I think Hollywood will be forced do a hard reset and move away from woke storytelling before we see any well-made fantasy.

[@ethanfreckleton6800]

"Woke" is a dog whistle and a scapegoat for what's really going on. Mediocre storytelling.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

Woke stopped being a dog whistle when they accused us of racism, sexism, and worse after we called them out for mediocre storytelling. It happened after The Last Jedi, and it's still happening five years later after the Rings of Power and The Witcher Blood Origins. It happens every time one of their trash projects crashes and burns. They're accusing us of being bigots because we don't like their drivel. Woke has become a pejorative for a reason. We just want good stories, and we're tired of being gaslit.

[@ethanfreckleton6800]

@@ChrisFoxWrites No one should defend The Last Jedi. Nor Rings of Power. I *did* have a hard time hearing the WoT criticisms early on when people were complaining about the color of the cast. But by the end of the season, the show was clearly a turd.

[@ChrisFoxWrites]

@@ethanfreckleton6800 I'd love to play devil's advocate for the people who were upset about the race of certain casting choices. The Two Rivers was an ethnically homogenous area. Them being isolated for centuries was a huge part of the plot. If they had made Sheinar all asian, and the Seanchan all black, and the Aeil all Irish and Scottish, and Arad Doman all south Indians, then I don't think anyone would have said a peep about race. They turned the two rivers into Caemlyn, a massive sprawling settlement, full of travelers and commerce. In the books these people all hiked many miles from their farms at the chance to see Padan Fain, because a peddler was something they only saw every other year or so. This is what I mean about honoring the lore. They didn't. And instead of being taken to task for it they labeled the audience racist for complaining about the breach. We want fidelity. We want real fantasy, where each land feels unique. We do not want a cosmopolitan world that perfectly reflects the real one. That isn't fantasy IMO. It unmoors the audience, because we have no idea where we are in any given scene, because they all look the same. Anyway, I don't condone racism, if that's what you were seeing, but the people I talked to didn't seem concerned about that.

[@ethanfreckleton6800]

@@ChrisFoxWrites I can see what you're saying. And I get why you're upset (being a hardcore fan of the series). Obviously Amazon didn't choose to focus on the fan readers as an audience, which in itself didn't mean it would be a bad show. It could've been bad for your tastes. But it ended up being bad for your taste and bad period. :-) The problem with saying "woke" is you create a minefield of connotations between audience members, because the term itself is nebulous and loaded either with values/identity markers if you consider yourself "woke" or negative connotations if you dislike "woke" people's behavior. I guarantee most of the racism accusations go away when people don't throw bait words out like this. Like, do you really want to add the labor of wading into race/sex/gender/representation and culturally ingrained controlling images and stereotypes? Cuz if so you better know your shit. And it's the Internet, so it won't matter even then. It'll be a troll fest.

[@YourBlackLocal]

The problem is there simply isn’t enough writers for the amount of content…

[@DeusExMachina50]

There are plenty of talented writers, but the studios hired writers based on identity politics rather than talent.

[@YourBlackLocal]

@@DeusExMachina50 Except all these shows are exclusively white writers.

[@DeusExMachina50]

@@YourBlackLocal White writers who all happen to have the correct ideological affiliations.

[@YourBlackLocal]

@@DeusExMachina50 Right… Just keep shifting the goal post. Because surely you know what the writers are thinking.

[@DeusExMachina50]

@@YourBlackLocalGet woke, go broke.

[@DanAbsalonson]

Good rant. Totally agree with everything you said. Thank you for putting it out there. It was cathartic to hear you walk us through it. My kids are also frustrated with movies they watch after reading the books. “Why did they change that?!” They scream. :) It is so frustrating.