The Rise of Maegor - Was Maegor Really Cruel? p1 - Ice and Fire - House of the Dragon

[@Inqu33rsition]

Maegor stans: "I can fix him" 😭

[@DavidLightbringer]

Hahahaha

[@danybey1920]

"But we can cus it's not his fault" 😢

[@thatoneblackdude3333]

Visenya : how dare you insult my son he's fine just the way he is .

[@Pastafari4]

Or "I just agree with him uniornically"which is well... But to each their own? As long as they don't practice what they preach

[@thatoneblackdude3333]

@@Pastafari4 I think people aggre with him only with the faith milatent

[@AskMia411]

38:51 Okay is no one’s gonna talk about how cute and wholesome it is that Aegon cried when handed his first grandchild? That’s freaking adorable and we rarely get sweet moments like that in asoiaf. It seems like Aegon and Aenys had a pretty good relationship too, it makes you wonder what the Targaryens would have been like going forwards if Maegor hadn’t usurped the throne.

[@MrFredstt]

Also makes you think about Aegon as a person. With how weak Aenys is considered to be, and we've seen what other fathers have done to their sons they considered weak like Samwell Tarly, what did Aegon see in Aenys? From what we're told he never even considered Maegor and was always behind Aenys. Did Aegon not want someone warlike? Did envision a more softer dynasty to come after him instead of endless wars and warlords?

[@AskMia411]

@@MrFredstt I imagine he saw Rhaenys in him, the wife he loved and lost. It seems like visenya kept maegor close, so he had less time to bond with his dad? But Aenys does seem to be the clear favorite, and Aegon probably thought he’d be a more confident ruler than he turned out to be. But I agree that Aegon probably didn’t expect all the rebellions Aenys had to deal with

[@regrettablemuffin9186]

I think the more interesting point with Aenys is is not whether or not Visenya killed him, but the line prior where “when none of the Maesters proved efficacious Visenya took charge and he seemed to improve for a time.” So he goes from the care of trained healers where he’s only getting worse to someone without healing training and starts getting better? What were the maesters doing? Grand Maester conspiracy anyone?

[@MrFredstt]

Also, maybe Visenya was using some of her rumored dark magic to help heal him?

[@championjdg]

didn't maegor kill a maester? i won't want this guy alive. he may kill me. so maybe they had good reason to let him die.

[@MyNameMeansNames]

They also couldn't cure Maegor while Tyranne did it in a single night. Plus the part Visenya taking care of Aenys is I believe out of her love. I think she neither hate Rhaenys nor her nephew, her rage was always pointed at Aegon.

[@greyworld6242]

@@MyNameMeansNamesthe conqueror or the uncrowned?

[@KBlanca513]

Team Visenya. She was giving Aenys good advice, even after he exiled her son. She tried to help him.

[@cosmicriptid]

Not taking the dragons on the royal progresses was always one of the most baffling choices Aenys made for me.

[@mythicalfelix]

Such a cuck move. Every decision he made was him being submissive

[@plasmiusphantom]

Aenys and Maegor represent the Kabbalistic pillars of Mercy and Severity. Mercy without Severity is Weakness, Severity without Mercy is Cruelty. 🙏🏾

[@cloverazar5315]

Re the heart attack theory at 2:27:16 - symptoms of heart attacks in men include gastrointestinal distress, such as loose stool, nausea, heartburn and indigestion. Symptoms such as chest tightness and cold sweat could have been dismissed by the maesters as anxiety and stress… and could easily have been a smaller heart attack, which Visenya was mitigating through sorcery… and went critical when the stress of the stress of Crake Hall gave him another

[@aydencole8850]

One thing I see often in the Fandom is the misconception about bastard swords. And it's because George made a mistake. Bastard swords are smaller than long swords, but longer than arming swords and are much smaller than great swords. Long swords=2 hands, bastard swords= 1 or 2 hands

[@jamesmullen3068]

George should have used the term "arming sword" for a lot of the one handed sword and shield stuff

[@aydencole8850]

@jamesmullen3068 YES!

[@Slechy_Lesh]

1:44:00 the string of onions is maybe more of a stannis callout - making a parallel or maybe contrast between his strict justice and Orys' more personal vendetta form of justice

[@davturley3950]

I really enjoyed this stream! Fire & Blood has enough history type gaps that it leaves one eager for analysis. And Reading Rhaegar absolutely slaps, bro.

[@manyeyedcrow9391]

It feels a bit like Maegor may not have been himself right after waking from the coma

[@ferniek5000]

I think this too. Traumatic Brain injury often produces such extreme changes in temperament in real life.

[@motorcitymangababe]

Severe head trauma can do that even with modern medicine, so that's a real possibility

[@manofhonor1685]

Also he was passed out for 66 days if i remember right. Some satan/demon symbolism

[@persephone342]

I’m with the TBI explanation. It’s logical and real.

[@shoyupacket5572]

I've often thought about this as well since there are plenty examples in the lore of false histories, slander, and the like. I find these kind of topics in fantasy fascinating, it's why I like asoiaf so much because there's so much built in history to the lore but just as in our world you have no real idea of how valid any of it is.

[@lucashunt4172]

Hey LML. Just wanted to clarify my comment. The parallel which I was referring to was about Dany replacing the children on the road to Meereen with the masters in relation to Maegor hanging the usurping knights of the Eerie. Wasn’t trying to say Dany is like Maegor only the similarities in relation to the tale being told. The Slavers Bay coalition is probably saying Dany crucified every last one of them out of spite. Which we know is not the truth.

[@Michael-bn1oi]

You aren't allowed to point out any contradictory parallels apparently lol

[@tracymetherell8744]

As always, help our friend David LML get noticed! Please leave a like and a comment to feed the algorithm. This analysis is so interesting and deep. Spread the word!

[@cherylbaxter8986]

Always

[@brennanrattenni]

This would make such a killer tv show, maybe starting when maegor is 10. Open to other starting dates

[@MrFredstt]

Personally I would have preferred a show about Maegor or the first Blackfyre rebellion than the Dance

[@Slechy_Lesh]

27:00 Also, from reading Blood Rites I now believe that the earliest gods were predator beasts. This survives in things like national animals - almost always lethal predators - and the pelts warriors used to wear and names of military units? It comes from our earliest origins. We worshipped what killed us - and identified with it as we gradually overcame our constant prey status. Something to think about in terms of Valyrian history stretching perhaps all the way back. Thanks David, your symbolism approach to this fictional universe has given me a new perspective on creativity, a whole new way of thinking about fictional worlds.

[@cityslacker6221]

The deeper dive’s on the text we have about Maegor and the discussion around him the last few years is one of the things that breathed life into my love for the non series text.

[@timholland1764]

Always bringing the thoughtful content. Thanks Lml

[@KingOfWinter]

One thing I think is interesting is how which house you are from shapes the public perception of you. Had Maegor been a Lannister or a Bolton he would’ve been celebrated as “clever” or “wise and ruthless”. I personally think he saved House Targaryen and should be remembered a little more fondly. Yes the last 5 maybe 4 and a half years he made some questionable decisions but one thing to keep in mind is that no one thinks they are “evil” he wasn’t sitting on the throne twirling his mustache, twiddling his fingers and laughing maniacally while he decided what evil thing to do next. He was a man. He loved, he laughed he even showed loyalty to his father, mother and brother. People romanticize young rulers like Aegon the younger but maybe he was just or even more hungry for the throne as his uncle. Who by the way left him alone until word reached him his nephew had his dragon and was gathering an army to try and defeat him. Who really knows what would’ve happened if Aegon had went to Kings Landing and talked to Maegor instead of “stealing” from him while he was away. How much of the cruelty is historically bias (winners write history). Even the advisors around Maegor could be pushing him in certain directions to meet their own agendas. We pretty much know at least half of the realm was secretly plotting against the Targaryen dynasty which I’m sure played into Margie’s story.

[@MrFredstt]

Interesting point about Maegor seemingly ignoring Aegon until Aegon was actively amassing an army

[@motorcitymangababe]

Yeah, you could absolutely see a history written about "Tywin the Cruel" in a decade or so

[@FLOridaM.o.m]

I really enjoyed having the color commentary on what is sometimes an otherwise dry read. Don’t get me wrong, I love this read and have redone it many times, but this was definitely an enhanced experience.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Thanks that's our goal! And I find summary books like Fire and Blood benefit greatly from slowing down and imagining what things would have been like

[@jwt6577]

Maegor was handed a powder keg so it's impressive that he didn't ignite it and a lot of his story could be exaggerated to defame him but he definitely didn't make it better.

[@PackLeader-1990]

He could have been more passive and achieved a better end result but think of the times he was born into. The Faith traditionalists wanted the Targaryens gone plain & simple so Maegor gave them fire & blood on a massive scale. My only gripe with Maegor is the kinslaying & torture but it seems that he was born of dark magic so no surprise there.

[@henrygroya1685]

Fantastic stream - was listening while working. Makes work so much better. Thank you David! Looking forward to the next one!

[@NickAgatha]

Yes! I really wanted this video! I watched other videos on this issue and I really wanted to hear your take on this! Thanks for keeping me company on my six-hour trip!

[@fawkescullen]

I think its often thought that Aegon loved two women, or was loved by two women - Visenya and Rehnys. But, what if Visenya and Aegon didn't necessary love each other (in the romantic sense) but DID both love Rehnys. And when Rehnys died, maybe they both resented each other because of their shared grief. Also, maybe Visenya resented Aegon for making peace, so to speak, with Dorne and that upset Visenya b/c of how Rehnys died. Rehnys does seem to be the linchpin that held Aegon and Visenya together. Just a thought.

[@tylersmith3139]

I don't think they hated each other, I think it was more so that they both took the weight of uniting all of Westeros very seriously and that Rhaenys was a light hearted relief from all of that while Visenya was a constant reminder of it.

[@MyNameMeansNames]

I always believed that it was Rhaenys whom Visenya was jealous of not Aegon( considering they are Targaryen's, probably romantically). She wanted her sister to love her but instead Rhaenys chose Aegon. So she never got to love Aegon after stealing Rhaenys from her. And as you said, leaving Rhaenys' death unpunished, he just killed their bond completely. And I think even after her death she kept loving her and by extension her son. Even though she obviously favoured her own son, she has never been rebellious against Aenys, she didn't even take action against rebellions without the consent of the king, even though she is a rogue queen by nature. Of course it may be also caused by the fact that if she let the chaos to grow it would fasten the rise of Maegor. But she kept giving Aenys honest suggestions all the time. It's very much open to questioning

[@jeambeam3173]

​@@MyNameMeansNamesthe only part of this thats kinda bs is Aegon literally burned every castle multiple times for Rhaenys. What was he suppose to do at that point? Like hey Visenya if you know how to make the Dornish bend the knee im all ears at that point what else could be done?

[@MyNameMeansNames]

@@jeambeam3173 Actually Aegon wanted to revenge Rhaenys as much as Visenya did and they were on the same page till Yellow Toad's son sent him a letter which silenced Aegon for unknown reasons. I believe it's got something to do with the prophecy, but still to Visenya, he just seemed like he yielded by leaving all their efforts and loses to vein so far.

[@memesnow3788]

I’m dyslexic and sometimes I struggle to understand an author’s message. I really appreciate your ability to explain the meanings behind some of the more complex ideas George has expressed in his books.

[@Inqu33rsition]

I just missed by 26 minutes 😭 Watching now. Thank you for covering my favorite Targaryen! 🔥🐲 Maegor is such a mystery character. As much as I'd like a series for him, I'd hate hate hate him 😂

[@Inqu33rsition]

One thing I've always wondered if why so often Daemon was compared to Maegor yet Aerys is rarely (of ever) compared. I'm sure if he had a clearer mind Aerys would have tried some of the things Maegor did.

[@Michael-bn1oi]

​@@Inqu33rsition because Aerys was weak, incompetent, and a coward. Which sounds nothing like Maegor.

[@saraseveryn8650]

King Aenys took dragons for granted. And his dragon blood.

[@Guinnessdrnkr1234]

The reading Rhaegar theme and Preston's Rouge Prince rift are my favorite!

[@lukewestwest]

REMEMBER young Bastard Baratheon .. I mean Joffrey 😅, is not the only person besides Maegor to murder/butcher a house cat Lmao. In the Dunk & Egg books Egg describes to Ser Duncan that his older brother Arian “BrightFlame” was cruel and evil, AND how he had killed one of Egg’s Cats .. but for some reason I think If remember correctly he may have thrown it down a well or something like that🤔. ANYWAY my point is that YES I think its safe to CONFIRM that THE BIGGEST MYSTERY IS SOLVED!! Maegor killed the cat… probably😂🤣

[@DavidLightbringer]

You're right, Aerion is another monster and animal-hurter

[@jesperlarsson2058]

Always enjoy your content, awesome work!

[@CDN-]

Not related to Maegor but on the topic of cruelty, I think I know George’s inspiration for the Brave Companions. While I was rereading the Brave Companions’ introduction in ASOS, I was struck by the similarity to the intruduction of Glanton’s Gang in Blood Meridian. They ride into town looking like absolute freaks, and immediately their leader stands out to the pov character. The awful cruelty of both parties is apparent. Judge Holden doesn’t seem to have a single clear adaptation into the brave companions, but a few members share similarities. Biter shares his physical appearance as a massive bald albino, Septon Utt is a pedophile like him, and (this one is loose) when Vargo Hoat wears his helmet he looks like Baphomet, who is connected sometimes to the devil, and Judge Holden symbolizes the devil. This might be a coincidence, but I think the closeness in the names Bloody Mummers/Blood Meridian would make George chuckle, coincidence or not. Really hope you see this LmL, lemme know what you think :)

[@DavidLightbringer]

So I've only heard about that book, as opposed to having read it, but it makes sense, and Vargo is meant as an avatar of the Black Goat of Qohor, who is 100% baphomet

[@TuathaTuna]

Perfect explanation(s) and deep dive theories as always!

[@nadiasouthiere7908]

Thanks 🙏🏻 for sharing this stream LML! Love your videos👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻♥️🙋🏼‍♀️🇨🇦

[@braydenhooper8277]

That reading rainbow was funky as hell

[@delsinmunroe5067]

As far as the dany-maegor connection goes i think its really there just to express how serious dany is about her liberation of the slaves. She can be brutal in her liberation

[@lucashunt4172]

Great stream. Lots of interesting analysis of the tale of Maegor as told by the maesters.

[@willbunch01]

this is super pedantic, but I am a pedantic person. A bastard sword is a Longsword on the shorter end, which is about 3 to 4 feet long. So a bastard sword is roughly in the 3 - 3.5 feet range. Longswords and bastards swords are both two handed swords and are pretty fast and light for that size. Greatswords are much larger and used more like polearms. So him struggling to hold blackfyre is pretty bad in terms of his strength.

[@DrDetfink]

Maegor’s reign was very interesting. Maybe the Andrew Jackson of Westeros? Taking over Westeros was one thing, settling in as the sole ruler is another. The Targaryens have always had a harder time being politicians than Conquerors. Maegor had his father’s fighting traits but none of the skills required to deal with the Faith Militant, Dorne, & Northern concerns. With House of the Dragon, Maegor probably read the Hightowers and Faith as usurpers.

[@DavidLightbringer]

interesting comparison

[@staticdynamic1605]

Always love your content.

[@andrewdockree3753]

Smashed it out the park again!

[@JohnCurtisGoodman]

Looking forward to part 2! Loved this section of Fire and Blood but I haven't read it in years so it was really fun to hear you go through moment by moment and do some interpretation! Also I've always thought "Maegor the Cruel" is such a top tier fantasy name, so evocative.

[@StormbornDragon]

i also wonder how we were meant to interpret dany calling herself aegon and specifically maegor’s blood. is it just bc he’s a targ who ruled with an iron first or something more? love dany though

[@DavidLightbringer]

Just a sort of intimidating, violent spirit to conjure up at need

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

@@DavidLightbringer I feel he was more or less cruel then the people of his time remember he was fighting religious extremism we know such people require a certain level of ruthlessness when fighting against their violence

[@Michael-bn1oi]

​@@DavidLightbringer I don't think George would just pointlessly throw out such heavy symbolism. Maegor has no reason to even be brought up in the series unless there is some connection to him. Clearly it means something. Like it or not. History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. Everything Martin keeps reminding us about (like Maegor) is going to have its Rhyme. Doesn't mean it will be Dany though. Could be that Jon wakes up from his Coma a little...aggressive.

[@jeffreybennett177]

Another wonderful stream🥳keep up the good work!

[@rafanando4207]

Don't know if they cover it later in the vide, but if Aegons prophecy was a factor i really feel like Visenya and Maegor acted out because of the prophecy while Aenys really didn't mind it, just a thought

[@ramixaleandros5893]

Loved this stream. Biased as I'm fond of Visenya/Rhaenys so anything near or close to them is always a win for me. It's an interesting topic, how much of what is written do you believe? How much sounds absurd or out of character, how much is propaganda or written to make certain families or people, look bad? Maegor was always cruel, the trauma of his coma and then gaining power just set him loose. I wonder if going into a coma, being wounded that badly hurt him in a "strong warrior ego/pride" kind of way? Perhaps ignited a major grudge vs the faith. I always hated the FOT7, too many parallels to Catholicism for me to ever like it and I support removing some of their power. Especially removing their ability to have their own army. However Maegor was just awful to his family, his brides and just a tyrant after that. I doubt Visenya would ever talk publicly or infront of the dirty maesters but she always seemed to be a "for the family" type of Targaryen like Daemon. The marriage to Aegon being a "duty" for both I feel. I never believed she would poison Aenys, Aenys was just overwhelmed. I really wish we got more from Visenya before she died, what she thought of the King Mageor became. But great stream and looking forward to D&E and the next Maegor Stream. My girl Rhaena after, can't wait.

[@cosmicriptid]

I agree with how you feel about Visenya. Aenys did seem to get better. He just collapsed with stress, which absolutely can kill you.

[@MrFredstt]

I for one think Maegor got brain damage after being in a coma for that long

[@ramixaleandros5893]

Maybe, though people don't come back the way they were before after "death" possible Maegor was changed as well. @@MrFredstt

[@willem-janageling3907]

I love these kinds of streams analyzing a topic in debth while going through the books.

[@bruceswayn9628]

I always saw Maegor and Aneys as like the Bratheon brothers in Game/Clash. Maegor is Roberts physicality and Stannis's iron, blunt personality, cruelty as a necessary sometimes. Whereas Aneys is what Renly would have been like as king. Good to look at but to influenced and ruled by others.

[@DavidLightbringer]

I mean Maegor and Stannis aren't really comparable. Stannis is just, not cruel, and not psychopathic.

[@bruceswayn9628]

@@DavidLightbringer My point was that maybe Maegor wasn't either. Imagine Stannis's story told 100 years after the fact by people that didn't like everything he did. Create some stories about incidents when he was a kid (like people reporting he smiled or laughed when his parents ship was smashed under Storms End), change the perspective of the siege at Storms End as something malicious with refusing to surrender, or his punishment of Davos as cruel mockery of a commoner who helped him (something like "oh I'll reward you for this but I'll take something from you to so everyone will know how low you are" and maybe Stannis force Davos to have the onion banner as another jape from him). Burning people and claiming the throne is just an elevation of his "cruel" nature. We know its not that way but history might see it different.

[@bruceswayn9628]

even the loyalty to his brother until after his death.

[@ShelbyOfOldStones]

⁠@@DavidLightbringer I think we can say that Stannis and Maegor were comparable in their steadfast stubbornness. I’m sure Visenya and Maegor believed they were doing the right thing to secure their family’s dynasty, same as Stannis did. One man’s justice is another man’s cruelty.

[@soxpeewee]

​@@DavidLightbringerRobert is more like Maegor than Stannis

[@devoleno]

None of Maegor's circle of Targaryens were remembered as cruel. So I doubt it's exaggerated by the Maesters. He cut up a horse bc it kicked him. If you are around horses, you know of the potential to be kicked. It's not that serious. Maegeor's response to that situation is enough to demonstrate his cruel streak. George is demonstrating the difference between ruling with fear vs love.

[@MorallyDubiousFrog]

He didn’t just cut up the horse, he also slashed the face of a stable boy who came to investigate the sounds of the horse being cut up.

[@KBlanca513]

Visenya had more power than Alysanne. Visenya spoke with the authority of the crown, Aegon didn’t tell her what to do. Just 50 years later Alysanne had to petition her husband to get what she wanted done. There was already a loss of power for women in that 50 years.

[@martyismay]

Loving these videos

[@therunningman_]

amazing as always! 🔥

[@Just.AllieEggart]

Love your rendition of “Reading Rhagar”😂

[@KBlanca513]

“hanging like onions” - onions are often stored by hanging them in groups on a string.

[@jschoma11]

Could Blackfyre having been burned with Aegon and getting darker be more than just a physical change? I believe Vakyrian steel is made with blood sacrifice and contains a soul(s). Maybe the added darkness is the addition of Aegon I's soul to the blade?

[@jamesgatehouse3318]

At the 1:54:00 mark, there's some talk of a Promethean reference to Jon Snow. Prometheus of course, gave the gift of fire to men. What did Jon do to the first wight he encountered?

[@DavidLightbringer]

hope he gives the gift to a lot more wights haha

[@DavidLightbringer]

but actually fire does liberate the wights from ice bondage, so it is a gift of freedom! hey that actually makes a ton of sense. no wonder he was wielding a torch

[@jamesgatehouse3318]

I think the parallel is quite strong. Both Prometheus and Jon give the knowledge of fire to men (albeit, the knowledge Jon imparts is what it does to wights rather than explicitly how to make/use it) in order to survive the night.

[@ovp3606]

I think that another possibility of Maegor’s eggs could be Quicksilver, Aenys’ she-dragon.

[@DavidLightbringer]

You're right

[@fawkescullen]

Wasn't Joanna the first cousin of Tywin?

[@cosmicriptid]

Yeah cousins is seen as fine, just not siblings or your parents' siblings.

[@christianlaw1992]

David, does the prophecy from hotd make you change your opinion on maegor at all? When I first read fire and blood I thought he was just trying to establish targ rule. But now I think he saw himself as the potential savior of the world. The only person with the strength and will to win the war of the dawn. He’s obviously a pos but in my eyes it’s makes him more sympathetic.

[@jordanford9320]

10:45 I find it cool that the targaryens bond with dragons is the same as the Stark's bond with the direwolves I'm rereading a game of thrones and they make a note that Brand gets better when they open the window and he can hear the howling of his wolf. And all throughout fire and blood. You see Targaryen babies health increase when they are around their dragons. Just another ice and fire link I guess.

[@sinthoras1917]

My opinion on Maegor, based on the book, but I read it last a few months ago: I think Maegor turned out a kind of botched version of George's gray character. He does things that are just objectively good in the context of the story as I understand it, like saving House Targaryen from extinction multiple times, which is necessary to save the world. And often, many things reported about him imo are just clearly Maester Propaganda, like the negative reporting on crushing the faith militant, the faith's power, and Aegon the stupid, all of that can easily be justified, and is not a negative thing. However, certain things, like especially torturing and killing Viserys, is not just cruel, but downright stupid strategically, and I have yet to wrap my head around it besides George just wanting to make Maegor weirdly stupidly cruel. Similar things apply to his treatment of his wifes, the killing of the masons, and more. And the possible mass murder of smallfolk pretending them to be faith militant fighters (ordered by a king who in the trial of seven relied on popular support no less!) is in that weird place between George apparently making Maegor just stupidly cruel and Maester Propaganda. I could write a lot more on how I think George's own philosophy and morals play into this, especially when comparing him to Jaehaerys, but that's too long for me to do atm. Looking forward to watching the stream, maybe I'll change my mind on a few things, I'll report back when I'm eventually done.

[@Ashbrash1998]

It's hard to say on SOME things, because some things of the things he did others had already. A lot of stuff Tywin did was royally brutal and similar to Maelor, but Tywin isn't called evil or mad he's just "ruthless". Then again we also have to take into account that F&B isn't accurate at all and is written by maesters hundreds of years later, and one major fact is we don't know WHY Magor did what he did. Did he do messed up stuff, 100%, but what wwas his reasoning? Was he like Joffrey or was he like Jamie? Did he know of Aegon's phrophecy and did whatever he thought was the right thing to do. Alas, we really don't know, since history is written by the winners.

[@barryhercules7588]

@@Ashbrash1998 "Everyones a hero in there own story", and why would you do anything if you didnt think it was the right thing to do? Psycopaths generally believe they are entitled and correct to be doing what they do, thats what makes them so terrifying. Its a reason for their behaviour, not an excuse. Yes Maegor undoubtably knew of the prophecy and the text implies his mother may have been a bit pushy that they needed a strong Targ king and once his soft brother was gone ...it doesnt make his usurping any less evil. Parallel of the bloodtsone emperor / GETD civil war? GRRM usually gives strong signposts to outright propaganda in the text, and youll get some random exile offspring/supporter in a later period giving the other side of the conflict (we have loads of that for the blackfyres, and examples of wildings pointing out not everyone thinks the starks are good guys etc ) ...but in Maegors case the maesters have either done the best job ever of whitewashing history or he just was a dick. Its not even like the stories are plausible or given multiple versions like the Baelor miracles. To me this is the least grey character representing the extreme of one aspect of Targ personality traits they all have in varying levels (suggestion of their being some kind of passing on not just of blood but fragments of ancestors souls via the dragons and eggs), and hard parraells his brother whos too much of a conciliator and humanist to understand the threats. Dannys story and Jons to a lesser extent seems to be all about learning how to use and balance these different aspects and find a way to achieve her moral and political aims....and end game feels like they will realise its using superhuman powers to impose control over people thats maybe causing a lot of the conflict in the first place.

[@sinthoras1917]

I dont have much comment after finishing, but I never understood the faith militant going to the sept of remembrance to mean that they were following the verdict of the trial, it read to me like they were *still* DEBATING about *whether* to follow it, with a substantial part of them atleast arguing for betraying the verdict of their own holy faith's rules, to preserve the power of organized religion in Westeros. To attack this bunch of traitorous, power hungry lying hypocrits was never a negative thing in my book.

[@adamantiiispencespence4012]

I wouldn't say botched so much as obscured, fog of history style. George drawa on history, mythology and folklore. In real history King John I of England imprisoned and later killed his nephew Arthur and it was a PR nightmare for him but he went on ruling. Also Vlad The Impaler has more than a few parallels with Maegor. He was brutal to his own people but is still seen as a national hero.

[@DavidbarZeus1]

On the size of Blackfyre, a bastard sword is apparently about four feet long including the hilt (the hilt itself making up about ten inches of the length,) and light enough to wield with one hand. It's longer than an arming sword, but shorter than a greatsword, able to be used both on horseback and on foot. The arming sword was best used by footmen and the greatsword on horseback, which is why it's so huge. Interestingly, Dark Sister is classified as a longsword, which is another term for a bastard sword. So the only difference between the two swords of House Targaryen is that Dark Sister was slimmer, probably only saving a few ounces of weight.

[@tylersmith3139]

Greatswords were mainly use on foot, they're an even longer version of the Longsword/2 handed sword, a bastard sword was a 1½ handed sword and arming sword was a true 1 handed sword). Lances and spears are traditional European cavalry weapons, a great sword would be pretty unwieldy on horseback.

[@DavidbarZeus1]

@@tylersmith3139 A sword as big as a man used on foot? That doesn’t make any sense. A secondary weapon for cavalry makes more sense.

[@Michael-bn1oi]

​@@DavidbarZeus1 You are incorrect. Cavalry sword are generally shorter, curved, and frequently aren't even that sharp. You can do literally any research and find out You are wrong. Can't swing bigger swords at speed on a horse. Wind resistance. Bigger swords are used on foot. But in real life bigger swords were not common at all.

[@ddpzzp553]

thoguh valyrian steel is less heavy than normal still so that would have an effect

[@jesseandersen4055]

I personally think theres no reason to think the hatchlings are new eggs. We know that hatching dragons takes far more than just incubation. You need at least a special targaryen, likely a woman. Perhaps rhaena. The targs always had plenty of eggs, but only now qll kd a sudden they are hatching. We have no evidence of a specific amount of time from egg laying to hatching. There were also 4 other dragons aside from the main 3 that could have been laying many eggs for the last hundred years on dragonstone we dont know when they died

[@MrFredstt]

If only Aenys had just a BIT of Maegor in him he would've been a great king. I think him and Maegor were on either side of extremes and I think that's why both were poor kings. Also, as a side note, I see a ton of parallels between and Aenys and Viserys I in their general temperament and passiveness

[@kyantechristian9747]

2:25:50 Instead of getting on a dragon to save his kids buddy literally dropped dead of fear🤦‍♂️ I understand his hesitation, not wanting to succumb to the same fate as his mother but to just do nothing at all?

[@leslieshE]

Ok I've been thinking and I don't believe Visenya killed Aenys, but she might have "helped" him end his sufferings. At that point Aenys was just the shadow of himself and he probably thought his kids would be dead soon and maybe after his stroke instead of trying to get better he asks Visenya to let him go. We know she thinks Maegor more competent to rule so she would have accepted Aenys's request. Putting what she believes to be the best for the house targ before Aenys's life.

[@plasmiusphantom]

These Valeryian Steel Greatswords (Ice and Heart's Bane) should be pretty easy to wield for any competent swordsman. They're supposed to be much lighter

[@ryasa777]

Reading F&B the first time Sons of the Dragon was one of my fav sections and Rhaena my favorite Targ. Would LOVE a show covering that whole time

[@MattBrausen]

LML: "If you're a neuro-d like me..." my obsession with this channel makes so much more sense 😂

[@honoratagold]

@ 41:45 or so, you're discussing the Faith being against sibling marriage and parent-child marriage, but not cousin marriage. That's pretty accurate to historical Europe's opinion on the whole thing at least as far as noble families go -- cousin marriage and aunt/uncle-nephew/niece marriages were pretty common among European nobility for a while there. It does make sense. 1) Generally, you don't grow up with your cousins the same way you do your parents and siblings, so the Westermarck effect won't kick in with them, but also 2) You start seeing genetic problems from brother-sister procreation faster than first-cousin procreation. If first cousins marrying and having kids is a one-off, it's usually fine from a genetic/birth defect standpoint -- it's only continual cousin marriage [or uncle-niece or aunt-nephew marriage] that starts showing problems. A lot of the people in the Habsburg line early in their habit of marrying within the extended family had no real issues -- you only start seeing noticeable visual issues when you've got multiple cousin-marriages in a row. This is actually why cousin marriage isn't illegal in many states -- historically, it has not been considered incest the same way sibling marriage is. I'm not saying we should all go out and marry our cousins -- I'm saying even in our culture, there was a perceived difference between these two things not that long ago -- and honestly even now. I'd be *way* less concerned if someone I knew said they were marrying their cousin than if they said they were marrying their brother or sister.

[@martyismay]

I love your voice in my ear when i sleep at night

[@emlynperson3976]

considering the dagger one might think maegor got a secret message when he retrieved blackfire from the pire

[@MichaelTargaryen8809]

so I've apparently watched your channel enough over the last 48 hours to get me to have a full-blown dream that i was watching one of your streams 😂😂😂😅

[@MichaelTargaryen8809]

it was a good stream too from what i recall, but looking back it was clearly a dream cuz u were wearing a plain shirt which you never do lol

[@DavidLightbringer]

😅😅😅

[@DavidLightbringer]

That's the sign for if I'm ever kidnapped and forced to stream against my will. I'll say "f--k the smallfolk anyway" ans wear a plain shirt. Yall will know I need rescuing 😅😅

[@sierrabird3817]

⁠​⁠@@DavidLightbringer badmouth Bloodraven to let us know it’s an emergency 😂

[@Ozymandias____]

I’ve been asking this since I first heard of meagor and now the light bringing crow quells my curiosity

[@ToucanBinks]

Thanks for another video, my friend 👍

[@greggwright9640]

Supposed to be that dragon can be both…choosing their sex

[@cosmicriptid]

Dude raped his niece, murdered one nephew, had the other tortured to death, and threatened to murder the rest of his brother's descendants. I'd say he is pretty solidly in "bad person" territory.

[@milkmilk2328]

Another Good stream, Looking forward to the next stream.

[@cosmicriptid]

Giving off a slightly threatening aura is one of the best ways to make sure you don't have to hurt anyone to keep power and order. If they believe you can harm them, you will not have to prove it.

[@cosmicriptid]

I'm currently writing an alt history where they decide to share power, under the concept that no one person can rule seven kingdoms alone. So far it has solved some conflicts, caused others, and mostly just made things more confusing. I'm having fun.

[@howardbiel1958]

The order of the green hand has some really good videos on this subject.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Do they

[@Cyr-Freekraken]

Targaryens really are the ND house of mystics (half joking). More seriously, what really seems to undo them is their belief that they can -and must- save the world themselves -some remember they will be needing help with that at least, Maegor I'm not so sure about yet. Also, so true they really have the hoards of books somewhere -or did. Like two Targaryens were reading the Seven Pointed Star, Baelor and his cousin[?] Naerys, and so that hoard diminished a fair bit if I remember correctly.

[@worldwidewarrior2043]

@DavidLightbringer - can I post a link for an auction for signed pristine 5 volume set of Song of Ice and Fire in Australia

[@DavidLightbringer]

KZbin won't let you but you can send it to me on Twitter or Instagram and I'll reshare it!

[@Beth0626]

Huge parallels between King Viserys I and King Aenys I. They might as well be the same person🤦‍♀️ weak and wishy-washy af

[@markagrippa4018]

I think Maegor wasn't that bad, OFC he did some very insane things but what he did do was ensure the survival and prosperity of the Targaryen's, even with Dragons (which can be killed) a King like Aenys without strong heirs would doom a new dynasty, if Maegor died before Aenys the Targs would have been finished. Obviously a good balance like Jaehaerys would be best but one of the main reasons the realm fell into line for Jaehaerys was because of the fear and power Maegor instilled in the realm.

[@DavidLightbringer]

oh wow it's like you didn't watch any of this video and then just commented anyway with a very bad take which I put to bed early on in the presentation. no he did not ensure the survival of house Targaryen, it was Jaehaerys and Alysanne and Rhaena who saved it. Maegor was driving it into the ground. And yes he was that bad, he tortured and mutilated his wives and genocided house Harroway. Absolutely terrible and verifiably baseless take from you

[@DavidLightbringer]

he massacred Warriors Sons in the Sept of Remembrance AFTER they had abided by the ceasefire for thirty days. That was a war crime / dishonorable act by ANY measure and it was a massacre of hundreds / thousands of people

[@DavidLightbringer]

you're right that Aenys was a terrible King, but that didn't justify Maegor and you got everything else wrong. additionally, no dynasty has a fundamental right to exist, so it's insane to even go down the road of trying to justify any level of cruelty to maintain the existence of a royal dynasty

[@markagrippa4018]

Not justifying the killling of innocent people but the Warrior Sons were not innocent bystanders I can only imagine the crimes a militant religious order commits on a daily basis, not to mention the years of treason and trying wipe out his family line @@DavidLightbringer

[@markagrippa4018]

If by putting it to bed you mean you gave your opinion sure @@DavidLightbringer

[@jschoma11]

I can't believe I missed the Maegor stream! I don't currently have a phone so I'm down bad. I would have been all over this!

[@thomasnicolle8339]

The head injury seems like a Henry the VIII parallel. He fell off his horse jousting at one point sustaining an injury and two hours of unconsciousness. Many historians think this played a large part in his increased cruelty thereafter

[@cosmicriptid]

It's sad that all the Targaryens who I feel could have been the best rulers are killed or disregarded before they get a chance. (Rhaena and Aegon and Viserys, Aemon and Jocelyn and Baelon, Rhaenys, Jacaerys and Baela)

[@samk522]

Aenys and Maegor are just Good Kirk and Evil Kirk from that one episode of Star Trek.

[@elegy9326]

Dont dismiss the nasty comment as sarcastic. Misogyny is real snf perpetuated by real misogynists. Dont assume we all know better because someone is committing the violence.

[@TeboMoney6]

Hey what’s sup bro , I got into GOT because of you , I really more into the dragons frfr . I wanted to send you those picture of balerion to see what you think ? @1:36:36 . The artist did a great job ! Crazy how big balerion was in the 2nd picture , with the king ! It’s almost scary how huge he was , his fire could probably burn for days …… it’s kinda scary too how his fire was black … it almost feels like a volcano when it erupts with the ashes , and it just crushes anything in its direction! Appreciate your videos my guy 💯

[@jorahtheexplorer3262]

1980s kids rock!

[@Argos-xb8ek]

It was all Jaehaerys and Faith Militant propaganda Maegor was the savior of the Targaryen Dynasty

[@cosmicriptid]

Concerning Larissa Velaryon, it always seemed strange to me that a Velaryon, the second most powerful house in the realm and descendents of old Valyria, the niece of the queen, and cousin to the future rulers, was married off to a second son. Then her daughter to an elderly lord. Like that sucks, if Rhaena wasn't around she might have been considered a match for the future king.

[@TheoAndHisPedals]

You have a pristine slap tone. Marcus Miller would be proud.

[@DavidLightbringer]

I basically play the same bass as him, a 70s J bass. Marcus is the man, I love the way he plays leads. So melodic, never wanky. Love me some Stanley Clarke and Bootsy is my #1

[@trevorwinn5012]

I forgot the part where Lord Tully tells Aines to mount Quicksilver and go put a swift end to Harren the Red but he says no and commands Lord Tully to call his banners instead 😂😂😂😂 I mean it don't get much weaker than that ! If he had actually mounted Quicksilver and went on and swiftly ended Harren in flames I bet no one else would've challenged his reign , SMH

[@cosmicriptid]

The first men north of the wall never marry from their own tribe, and the men of the Night's Watch, which includes many northerners, are disgusted by Crastor. (Although in my opinion that's beyond the worst kind of incest.)

[@kat1722]

It says he beat the kings guard but not who else he beat, in dunk and egg it's said point blank that the prince will take on the kings guard even though he was out matched, not saying maegor wasn't strong but it's kind of a fixed match. I think it was said they brought 5 dragons with them balarion and 4 others, and they probably brought some incubating eggs with them.

[@ninjadolphin01]

Most cultures have been far less approving of avunculate marriage than cousin marriage. It's also genetically worse a nephew or niece would share about a fourth of your DNA as opposed to an eighth for a cousin

[@dsdgjj]

Maegor is fascinating! and seems in some ways to be inspired by Henry VII of England, what with the many wives and fertility issues, but also in that Henry was injured in a jousting tournament and suffered an injury to his leg that never fully healed, so for the latter half of his life he was in near constant pain and unable to exercise as he previously had, leading to his severe weight gain. some accounts also mention him being unconscious for several hours after he was thrown from his horse, so some people believe he may have suffered some head trauma, which could also explain how much more cantankerous he became later in life! just some cool interesting facts (sorry if you talk about this later on, I haven't made it through the whole video yet!)

[@bigwigcthulu6902]

Yeah, Pakistan's rate of procreation from cousin + cousin marriages is something like 90%+ of the population. There are other countries with similar rates. Very common in less developed countries.