The Sad State of the VR industry

[@ThrillSeekerVR]

I have some free "not my metaverse" pins available in my discord server if you want it. Discord.gg/Thrill Let's talk. Do you agree with what I say here?

[@thedefender4827]

I’m o happy that you’re standing up for the vr community.

[@nekaa7657]

What you've said here has inspired me even more than before to do what I can against meta, even if it isn't much.

[@Daemon6109]

tsefresfesf

[@mellomello2364]

@@hollyc5417 ppl who say it's pointless make it pointless

[@VintageandVoltage]

GREAT video! My thoughts exactly. Thank you.

[@TheMysticle]

Speaking absolute facts. I agree with everything you said here 100% Thank you for making this, I could not have worded it any better.

[@waves6885]

hey man i love your videos!

[@brandipazucha339]

i could not agree more

[@lunastie39]

the mysticle and thrillseeker, the 2 kings of vr content

[@MTG9745]

Agreed. Meta is trying to control the VR marketplace and we all know they are doing it, and doing it well. This needs to stop so other companies can get a taste if the market.

[@JhonnyBomby]

Vr chat is already the meta verse

[@sethdrake7551]

what worries me is that by staying on the meta boat we will end up building the cannons that sink every other ship that tries to compete

[@mrsearaphim4077]

I love that analogy and you're absolutely right. It's rather naive of Thrill to think we will be able to veer the ship in the direction we want. Once their competition is dead no one will jump ship as there will be no other ship left in the Ocean. Then you're stuck with a dictator of a captain.

[@billfortney6560]

That is definitly a concern, but I think so long as we don't go aboard with blinders on our headsets, and so long as we as a community stick together, we can still help stear the ship. If ten thousand people crowd to a corner of the boat at once, the boat will lean that direction. Lets keep our eyes, ears, and mind open and see where this goes, then if it does capsize, lets make sure theres room on the debris for Jack to get out of the water. We need more life rafts!

[@Superabound2]

@@billfortney6560 you're naive

[@Linkmegax]

Lol, your metaphore doesn't translate well to reality. Crowding everyone to the corner of a large ship won't redirect it but sending angry letters and posting enthusiastic comments is going to do even less. Look how Facebook worked out. Meta is literally the same company run by the same people and you won't get them to change a thing.

[@LukeMartin-qi5uh]

@@Linkmegax that's not entirely true, they are reversing the Facebook login, they stopped when we didn't want ads on paid games, they shifted focus to porting older games based off feedback on Reddit, they even unblocked revive at one point after it was basically banned. All because the community spoke out. It doesn't absolve the company of every mistake, but it's not all bad either.

[@Seritias]

Fully agree with this. I got a Quest 2 as my first VR headset last month, and I'm having a blast with it, but Facebook's vision for the future of VR as a closed off, monopolized and corporatized metaverse disgusts me. Now that I know that I really do enjoy VR, the next time I'll get a headset that isn't made by Meta even if I have to pay a premium for it

[@malamutextv]

Index i promise

[@jvnko26]

@@malamutextv dont listen to this guy,get google cardboard

[@Amelie12]

I have the HP REVERB 2 a couple days, and i like it. but i cannot say if it's better than another, cause it's my first.

[@johnny-mnemonic13]

Pimaxvr 8k with 200k fov is the pinnacle of consumer VR .

[@Smugster0]

As much as I liked my quest 2 and getting dunked on by Facebook for no reason (fb account banned) and now seeing what's going on with Facebook aka meta, I'm not sure if I like this company. I wish oculus was never ever brought by Facebook at all.

[@LucasVRTech]

And so begins the open source VR revolution! ✊ For real though we definitely need to root a quest 2, that would be a huge move

[@deathdragon563]

Hell yeah, we just need those who are capable of it to do it...

[@afallingtree9114]

i will immediately be getting one the second someone releases an exploit

[@porogonlovespokemon1648]

Hell yeah... Im in...

[@detroxx56784]

It can't be THAT hard. I mean, it's just Android after all. Maybe someone should try getting the XDA guys on board. They are absolute Android masters. Surely they can pull it off. Who knows, maybe one day we might even get custom ROMs for the Quest. That would be sick!

[@AlexeyGryaznyy]

Could this be done through bountysource?

[@TheVirtualRealityShow]

"Your voice is powerful, and OUR voice can change the future" Bet. Let's fuckin do it.

[@beseechedmickey7468]

H E L L Y E A H

[@clayton_jansen]

You guys are at the forefront Phia. But I’ll be supporting this message so our nexus isn’t monopolized.

[@Aelethil]

COUNT ME IN VR SUNBROS!! (\[T]/)

[@pinngg6907]

I can hear USSR anthem

[@fLaMePr0oF]

Fuck yeah!

[@MrJc1337]

At this point we can only wish for Valve to cram the Steam Deck hardware inside a headset and take back a part of the market and prevent a monopoly from Meta.

[@bankerduck4925]

Genius. Pretty epic hope there.

[@TheAngryHumster]

thats... Possible, actualy! Hmm...

[@RobKohr]

Yep, this isn't really much of a stretch. The steam deck hardware makes the quest look like a potato. Change the form factor, put some lenses in front of that screen and you have yourself a vr headset. You can even make it so you have a computer screen in VR and use a keyboard and mouse and play 2d games like you would on a PC, but with your headset on, and then play a vr game... or a 3d desktop game where the game comes out of the monitor. This is such a straight forward thing that it would boggle my mind if someone in valve wasn't already prototyping it. And then, they have an entire storefront of vr games instantly available from launch day.

[@yesyes-om1po]

standalone has no future beyond what it is right now, a glorified phone vr solution. Unless we miraculously discover some hyper advanced new battery technology (which we have been trying at for the past 100 years), or we somehow develop super efficient chips that can compete with desktop hardware while being power efficient (unlikely since the speed of advancement for such progress has slowed considerably and is soon expected to halt entirely). What you'll get is a super hot, battery burning, mediocre heavy headset. it is simply not viable.

[@paravostok]

@@yesyes-om1po I don't know the wattage of the xr2 cpu but the low power 13th gen i5 is only 35w, and you can underclock it further than thst

[@blitzar2258]

It feels amazing to be part of this community, the fact that we are literally watching one of the biggest technological leaps happen right in front our eyes is incredible, and we’ll all be here for it!

[@Iron936]

You will live in pods and eat the bugs as you are told. And the only media that you will be permitted to consume is what is approved by your overlord Zuck.

[@GayBowser42069]

Idk about all of us. I might just have to unplug my grandpas life support to charge my quest and worship the overlord zuck😁

[@Superabound2]

Technology isn't a solution. Its the Problem.

[@Superabound2]

@@GayBowser42069 disgusting

[@uajrh1]

@@Superabound2 technology isn’t a problem, it’s how people use it

[@snapper26]

Big respect for Thrill, for putting his opinion on the table, I watch him since he had less than 10K subs to see he growing and becoming who he is now, I am so happy to say that he is one of the best KZbinrs I have already saw in my life, not just for being honest and having transparency, but also for not having trouble of fear to do it. Keep it up Thrill, you are a legend.

[@BEATMASTERTHETHIRD]

he didnt put his opinion on the table

[@snapper26]

@@BEATMASTERTHETHIRD dude, the title says literally ''my stance''

[@barry3834]

same

[@BEATMASTERTHETHIRD]

@@snapper26 he didnt put anything on the table, he just said his opinion

[@qgfdgdfsdffbfb5114]

@@BEATMASTERTHETHIRD That's literally what the commenter says, "putting his opinion on the table." On the table is just a metaphor for putting his opinion out there.

[@Naysy]

Great video. I very much feel the same.

[@CrimsonOrguss]

Really awesome to see you guys supporting each other in the comments section even

[@hydrapower746]

I agree 100%. Btw, can you link your scoresaber? I love your videos and just want to see you stats.

[@claws61821]

This is literally exactly what everyone furiously, angrily predicted the very day that Oculus broke their last unbroken Kickstarter "promise" by selling out to Facebook, except for the bit where Facebook is unlawfully trademarking and copyrighting a word that has been in common use in all but one of the contexts Facebook defines it under for nearly fifty years as well as in several more besides...

[@joshl6275]

It’s not about what’s right. It’s about what you can prove in court. And that almost always boils down to who has the deepest pockets. Gotta love American capitalism. Feels like freedom doesn’t it?

[@justinallen2408]

@@joshl6275 most won't believe or understand what having deep pockets means you can do and get away with.

[@casedistorted]

It's so funny watching facebook throw away such a cool brand such as Oculus for a word like Meta. That just shows that Zuckerberg is like a robot AI trying to take over the world because he doesn't understand human emotion.

[@claws61821]

Or morals or ethics...

[@nixxstream]

@@casedistorted lol funny while watching the video i thought suckerberg looks like a robot

[@SteelR4t]

I think it's rather naïve to believe that we can all expect Meta to build an infrastructure and then jump ship to a new one when a new one becomes available. The vast majority of Facebook users don't know or even care about Facebooks shady practices or goals and keep using it anyway. It's the same with the Quest and VR. Facebook aren't targetting tech savy, knowledgeable people, they're targetting the masses. Those are the people that will help Facebook build and populate the metaverse, not us.

[@SergTTL]

What's the best course of action for the tech savvy, knowledgeable people then to make the situation better or at least less bad in your opinion?

[@SteelR4t]

@@SergTTL I guess that depends on a number of different factors, not least of which is how good the alternative is and how effectively Meta is able to lock people in to the use of their environment with their devices.

[@ttamttam1522]

@@SergTTL Don't buy Meta, don't use Meta, and - importantly - don't recommend Meta. While it may sound like gatekeeping, I think it's an unreasonable expectation that us tech folks should always only account for the best financial deal for anyone who asks our advice. It's like asking "Ethics aside, should I join the Noble Rebellion or the Evil Empire?" Well, smart money's on the Evil Empire. I think it's important to be honest with our friends and family, but part of that honesty includes explaining any ethical issues we may have with a product, even if said product is the best "deal".

[@SteelR4t]

​@@xressentials I have no idea what that toxic rant was in relation to, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't my post, given that it bore no relation to any of the points I made. If you're going to make sarcastic jibes about what people write at least make sure you've understood what they're saying. If you don't understand what they're saying, trying asking them to clarify, instead of resorting to tirades of nonsense. Would you like a discussion about this, or are you just going to resort to being an asshole? Hint.. if it's the second one, and you choose to reply once more, please don't expect me to contribute to your response further.

[@vgamedude12]

Yep. This action just ensures even the more niche elements back the monopolistic giant into even more of a monopolistic giant.

[@ivankrushensky]

This is just like Nintendo in the 80's and early 90's, which I lived through. I'm not worried. Eventually something much better for a similar cost will come along and my kids will be showing their kids the "nostalgic" Quest 2 that they had sitting in a dusty box for a decade or two. Cheers.

[@internaute999]

We hope so

[@JRCT3E]

This is not the same as Nintendo in the 80s. Even though they had a monopoly back then, they still lacked the resources to ward off all competition in the future. Sure they definitely could bully developers into exclusivity back then, but once Sony was knocking on the door with bigger coffers it was over. Who can overthrow Facebook? Apple? Google? Are they really that better?

[@ivankrushensky]

@@JRCT3E there will always be a competitor eventually. I'm not worried in the least. Same could have been said about Wal Mart just a decade or so ago. Now look.

[@mr.mister311]

​@@JRCT3E More like Sony, Microsoft, Valve and companies like Asus. I don't think you have to be worried. The established big dogs of the gaming industry are just smarter than Mesa. Keep in mind that it wasn't that long ago normal VR headsets were like $2000-3000. In 5-10 more years it's going to be even less. I'm happy with my Quest for now, but the way I see it, the Quest is comparable to the iPhone (except facebook being worse than Apple). Alone in the market, trying to dominate by locking hardware and software together. Until Google's Android came along. Let's just let Mesa deal with the advertising, development and adoption of this new tech until costs are down. After that, other companies will jump in and hit with them hard, that's a given. Imagine when a companies that people actually like, like Sony and Valve, start releasing their mobile HMDs 5-10 years from now for the same $400 price tag, only they will be better than anything available at the market today, and they won't be selling it a loss. Who will be laughing then? Is there anyone who is ever going to pick the company you absolutely can not trust over a consumer-friendly one like, when given the choice? If you compare them to Apple, Apple provide an experience. They try and make consumer-grade hardware feel luxurious, and people buy into that. People buy Apple because it's Apple. But people buy Facebook/Mesa _despite_ it being them, for the sole reason that there's nobody else offering the same thing. In the long run, they simply have nothing to offer.

[@Solarkatana252]

@@mr.mister311 that kinda leaves out that apple has some of the highest market share, originally gained a high boost and have highly trapped you within their ecosystem. If anything apple is the example meta wanna use. They already have their iPod/itunes (FB/Instagram). Now they just need their iPhone (quest)

[@B0Oty]

I'm not sure how beneficial this scheme would actually be. I can't see that everyone is going to jump from the Meta ship once they've built up everything. I totally agree that the Quest 2 is the best recommendation for beginner VR enthusiasts and it's the one I also recommend to new users, but to think that Meta isn't going to come out with a index (or greater) esque type of hardware between now and the time that it's built the infrastructure available to other competitors is naive. Being a PC VR user, this is a scary thought.

[@AVNDRfound]

Yeah that's my biggest worry too. Enough people as it is currently stay with facebook despite everything going on, and making us even more reliant on it for everything will not make jumping ship easier.

[@afallingtree9114]

for all we know, we might have already passed the point of no return

[@B0Oty]

@@AVNDRfound ahh that's precisely my point I was trying to make haha. Well said. But yeah it is pretty scary. All we can hope is that whatever Meta comes out with can benefit the rest of the competitors. Fingers crossed

[@thefirsttrillionaire2925]

Well you can look at crypto vs the banks to see how that will end up. It’s similar. Banks are like Facebook and have the financial backing and networks but guess what’s the one thing that can kill both. Technological advancement. And open source versions will ALWAYS beat centralized ones because they’re more of us than them. Plus the decentralized version will offer more freedom and incentives than the centralized one because it takes profit out of Meta’s pocket and puts it directly into yours.

[@LaMach420]

@@thefirsttrillionaire2925 Yup. Legit waiting for that reason to play VR

[@CasandChary]

Well said Thrill! VR is amazing and we should all work together to keep it amazing. It’s one love ❤️

[@thefirsttrillionaire2925]

You guys are awesome too! You and Thrill are my go to’s so keep being awesome! 😁

[@Yomy2]

Let’s go

[@RoyHoy]

His manipulating his young followers to not support Meta vision of the metaverse even though it's not out yet🤦🏽‍♂️. Thrill just wants VRChat to be the Metaverse cause there's literally no reason for him to hate Meta metaverse yet. He's not even giving it a chance. Please don't support this VR creator.

[@thalamus_eater]

@@RoyHoy that's not at all what he's saying lmao

[@joeballs2676]

@@RoyHoy not even what he said in the video. he said that he doesn't have a bias against facebook or meta. rewatch the video bud.

[@R-SXX]

That's why I save money for valve index. I will never ever buy anything that has a Facebook implementation, and yes, the metaverse is freaking scary. Love how people all feel the same about that.

[@Gabito04]

We got HP Reverb G2. Yeah the tracking isn't as good as Quest, but it's a good budget headset for its 4K HMD. It is $200 more than Quest 2... but again, it's good for what it is.

[@KevinYoung93]

please never stop thrill, this is such a perfect explanation of the rough situation this industry is in. thank you for not being afraid to share these thoughts as a content creator.

[@Pfincess]

I love the boat analogy. It's really fitting and hopefully we can rise to get them to function how they should and not how they want.

[@nemonomen3340]

The more money we pay the captain, the more the ship is going to start looking like a battlecruiser. And it's going to send a clear message to any other ships that get too big that it's in their best interest to pool resources.

[@Slycoop]

I thought the analogy was corny. Everyone's hating on FB for a well deserved monopoly. Mark is more excited about this than anyone. He dropped the entry barrier %80 and is spending all the money possible to make our 'ready player one' dreams real. And his platform is going to allow for user created content, probably open source.

[@afallingtree9114]

​@@Slycoop he's not excited about VR as a content creation medium, he's excited about the fact that this is borderline non-invasive mindreading, this is data scraping at the lowest level. i can tell you for a fact that he has no interest in FOSS (for anything other than EOL products)

[@Slycoop]

@@afallingtree9114 Society is so quick to see the worst in people these days. Data analytics is awesome. Imagine getting 10 billion people to use a website where they all enter their demographic information and post their opinion about everything, and then NOT using data analytics to drive successful marketing advertisement campaigns. You would have to be an idiot.

[@afallingtree9114]

@@Slycoop exactly that. this is why decentralisation matters, we know one person cant be trusted with that level of power regardless of their previous motives.

[@thorstenvandeheyning5324]

this guy. i saw my first video of him. really love the content u make independantly!!!! u brought me into VR! u will be my go to Vr channel forever!! keep it up and yeah, sometimes that means addapting. im sure u will still make great content! We need you.

[@delusifer1017]

Damn Thrill this was amazing and I love that you just want VR to thrive. As a proud owner of the Index I gotta say it feels like the community is being ripped away from me. Seeing the quest store get all the new content and next to no support for SteamVR bums me out. I dream of the day this monopolistic scheme finally dies out. I want games too!

[@DankMemer42013]

Same dude! Do not worry tho! I hear valve is in works for something that’s truly gonna compete against the Oculus Quest 2

[@Thezuule1]

It's just the cost of entry coupled with a chip shortage. Devs go where the money is and PCVR is a niche within a niche.

[@Nick_1790]

Full disclosure: meta/Facebook shareholder over here. Interesting video that is for sure. One thing I would like to mention, Meta/Facebook does not answer to shareholders either. The reason is because Meta/Facebook is one of the few companies with a double class share structure. This means that individuals with a special type of shares hold tremendous voting power. In other words if every single meta/Facebook shareholder votes to do something but Zuck opposes it means nothing will be done because he holds more than 50% of the voting power. Also, I don’t think the company will allow to be used as your R&D piggy bank but gl.

[@mzaite]

This, people still really don't understand that if any "they" lets you think you actually have a say inside THEIR system.....you don't, you just think you do.

[@Nick_1790]

@@mzaite no that is not what I meant. While Facebook/meta does not answer to shareholders it does not mean we are without any recourse. Even someone as powerful as the Zuck understands that a market can stay irrational longer that you can stay solvent and all the massive issues that means. If you don’t like the company do not use their products by all means but my only criticism is to build a relationship with the intent of just jump ship (I don’t think that is healthy for any kind of relationship) instead, be vocal, tell the company, all companies, what you want and see what they can do for you. On the other hand, if you treat any company with the intent of just jumping ship I assure you that the next company is going to think twice before making an investment that may benefit us all. I wrote this in a hurry, sorry for any errors.

[@arifasyraf3535]

Great points!!! and to add, for those in countries that have a lower currency rate (like mine), Quest 2 is the only viable option for most of us and even that is almost too expensive. To give others a picture, Quest 2 price in my country is around 2,000, and that is not even for additional storage. So, most people don't really have a choice, I think

[@McMessenger]

The premise that we'll just be using Meta as a "ship" to drive the industry forward and that we should "abandon" it as soon as the competition is further along doesn't make much sense to me. That's under the impression that in, let's say 1-3 years from now when we have more competition with standalone headset hardware + software that could compete with Meta at the level of Quest 2 in it's current state, that Meta isn't going to have something that's STILL better by a mile compared to the competition at that point. Back to the ship analogy - that's like abandoning a luxurious, but affordable, cruise liner with the best offerings for a view of the ocean and more in entertainment available - for the price of your compliance with the rules + a small fee for the ticket to board - versus a small sailboat that you end up paying more than the cruise ship ticket for, but you yourself will own it fully. Yes, you'll have much more freedom, but you'd lack the innovations and features that a cruise ship could provide - though you can at least say that both of them float and take you places you couldn't go otherwise. For the average person that just wants to see the ocean and experience it in the best way possible for a decent price, it makes more sense to go with the cruise ship - but for the more experienced sea-goer, the sailboat might end up becoming a better option for them in long-run. The problem for the sailboat owner though is that it will always lack all the technological features of a cruise ship, so making that switch might not even happen. Probably not the best way to phrase that, but I hope it makes some sense. Personally, I feel like we just need to see more standalone competition in general - Meta / Oculus definitely has the largest share of headset owners on Steam at around 60%, but that doesn't mean they're at 100 - they don't own the PCVR side of things FULLY, though inevitably they'll own a larger share since a Quest 2 can link to a PC (which of course makes the Quest 2 that much more enticing compared to PCVR-only headsets).

[@4music2power0]

He didn't say to abandon ship. He said to steer the ship where we'd like it to go.

[@IskandarTheWack]

I think you underestimate other hardware. PSVR 2 is going to have foveated rendering and another thing like that, dualsense features, run using ps5 hardware, 4k screen, insiders saying the library is literally going to dominate vr, etc. Though I'm not disagreeing with our money helping meta be scumbags.

[@skelo9033]

Finally someone speaking some sense.

[@McMessenger]

@@IskandarTheWack PSVR 2 is something that's still tethered to a console though - it's clear by overall consumer sales that most people would rather spend money on an "all-in-one" standalone headset, rather than a headset that still requires an additional console system to work ($300 USD vs. $1000+ for a decent PCVR setup). The main reason PCVR is probably further ahead than PSVR right now is 1. There really isn't many PSVR exclusives worth investing that much money into to play (though I will say that Fracked looks kinda cool) and 2. Most of the more well known VR titles are either exclusive to the Quest 2, or exclusive to PCVR. Yeah, maybe in a few years PSVR 2 will come out along with some good games, but who's to say that the Quest won't improve further as well? It's basically still the same argument as PCVR vs. standalone - PSVR is still using a console, it's the same concept as PCVR in practice. Also, I would take any "insider" information with a *massive* grain-of-salt - assuming that every new game that may eventually come out for PSVR 2 is going to be a masterpiece for VR is wishful thinking at best. There might be a 1 or 2, but I doubt it would be enough to warrant people buying a PS5 + the VR hardware just to play it - which would make most of the hardware upgrades sort of pointless if there's no good games that make use of those improvements. Personally, I've tried PSVR for RE7 way back a few years ago at a friend's place - it was alright, but my god the difference between current PSVR and something like a $300 Quest 2 is night and day. It's nice that Playstation are taking the first steps to try and create competition, but they have a massive hill to climb to come anywhere close to the Quest 2's popularity.

[@zatagado]

yeah I thought it was a bit naïve of a take. Trust me, the users dont use the corporation, the corporation uses the users.

[@Jack-hp9yw]

You do news, games and opinions and it’s all so interesting and entertaining we all love you too thrill

[@thecalebgibbs]

As a techie and engineer, the biggest problem with this video is the belief that VR will explode. It won't. It will only be a fringe gaming gadget. They won't replace any other tech. Families will still game and watch content on TVs. Cell phones will still be the mobile and primary content device. For example, I consume content almost all day but would never use VR. I watch videos while washing dishes. I have music on while reading. I listen to podcasts while driving. This is the case for most of the world. VR is merely a gaming option for some.

[@Briver64]

TBH the idea of "Let's mutiny later" really sounds like "Yeah, we shouldn't stand for this, but I like the stuff they're selling so let's just not stand for it later when it gets worse. There totally won't be even more things keeping us in their ecosystem later." I do agree there needs to be more competition and it sucks that the only affordable option is the meta option, but opposing Meta's nonsense is what's going to hurt that monopoly, not getting them more support then expecting all that support to suddenly care about being more consumer-friendly so they throw out their quest headsets. Anytime Meta does something that's scummy we should oppose it, and anytime a quest gets recommended it should come with that asterisk about what the company is like so people are informed. And I think bolstering the VR community for the sake of it is probably not worth bolstering Facebook even further.

[@jameskirk4692]

Exactly, I agree!

[@dustinchristian6043]

Idk alot of people don't care about what a company does...as long as their product is cheap decent and.....wireless

[@Briver64]

@@dustinchristian6043 Yeah, but they should at least be informed. And bringing them in and expecting them to care later is even more of an ask.

[@dustinchristian6043]

@@Briver64 I agree inform everyone and let them make decisions after that....was just stating that even informing them is more than likely not going to change the outcome...meta is shady but they are brilliant at marketing and it shows

[@HereticDuo]

@@dustinchristian6043 marketing isn't hard when you are they only affordable stand alone VR in the entire market. If Sony was doing mobile VR their marketing would wreck Facebook, just look at their competition with Xbox, 2 virtually identical systems in specs and price and the PS5 is out selling them by a mile. Thats skilled marketing, You don't need marketing when you are the only one selling something.

[@Scuttsy]

Thank you so much for making this. VR has become such an important aspect of my life and the thought of Meta owning it all terrifies me. The world isn't so black and white either, it's in that grey zone that we'll eventually seize control and direct our own course to our own future for VR.

[@mobxgames]

Having recently released our first VR title, at least the part about being financially unstable with a PC-only release is correct. But why the complete disregard of Sony as a BIG challenger in the VR space? They have had the most successful VR headset until just two years ago after all. Meta is a good platform for VR devs, but there is lots of potential for competition across the board, and heavy investments being made into games, platforms and hardware. For VR Indie Devs to be financially stable, it will come down to designing VR games from the get-go for a multi-platform release. And contrary to popular belief, here's a fact: Exclusivity is NOT a requirement to get funded.

[@Micromation]

PSVR turned more people from VR than encouraged into delving deeper... It was seen by many as an expensive gimmick and in case of PSVR they were absolutely correct in their assessment. Controllers were the main problems. Move was dogshit when it released 10 years ago - I would know, I've had them since day1 on PS3... this offered extremely limited capability of interaction for PSVR games so most of them were made to be played with gamepad. You know what a seated VR experience with gamepad is? A fucking playing on 3D TV which has failed spectacularly and was rightfully dismissed as a gimmick - in my opinion what makes VR games a new unique experience that could convince new customers is the interaction with the virtual world, not the headset itself. Rift releasing without Touch was a massive mistake too. It has literally hampered development on VR for years. I'm happy Quest 2 is becoming the most popular VR set because graphic aren't the problem, uninteresting gameplay is. And while I would ideally want successor of Index to become the mainstream, Quest 2 is what I would consider the bare minimum to have somewhat compelling VR experience.

[@Micromation]

@@notlNSIGHT IMHO controllers are way more important than headset. I have original Rift, Quest 2 and Index - there's vast difference in picture quality between them but neither bothers me in the slightest - it's the controllers that enable your interaction with virtual environment. Unless you're playing combat flight simulator where you have to spot the dot, 1st rift is perfectly sufficient for overwhelming majority of applications. Good screen, less screen door effect, wider FoV is what I would call a welcome but non essential luxury. When it comes to headsets I would much rather have new functionality (I remember back in the day there were talks about using eye tracking for variable resolution to improve performance and decrease hardware requirements, now they're predictively generating frames to increase performance, stuff like that makes way bigger difference than more sleek looking HMD (who the fuck cares, lmao) or slightly more pixels...

[@The_Bird_Bird_Harder]

@@Micromation I absolutely agree about controllers, playing h3vr, and just repeatedly smacking my quest 2 controllers into each other, while funny the first time, is really just annoying, and immersion breaking by the 20th. The hoops kinda help against dropping, but beyond that. Just. Oof.

[@rayzor4104]

@@Micromation psvr 2 is coming out. I'm pretty sure that the problem with the controllers are fixed and playstation has added more features for the psvr 2. (I'm excited to get one).

[@ekimlaf]

@@rayzor4104 i still need to see the price

[@Lockke_]

IF this is to work it needs to be taken VERY seriously by a LARGE majority of the VR community and actually implemented. All new and potential VR users need to be informed and brought fully on board with this plan. Otherwise, those who dont know, don't care, or don't get it will ruin the plan by continuing to feed their money Meta. Oh, and you can bet Meta will be trying to sabotage this in many ways if it even appears like it might work so you all will have to be on guard for that.

[@dragonandavatarfan8865]

Not really a good idea, Thrill is really underestimating how scary and relentless FB is becoming towards the vr market. They have spent billions the past few years and taking losses just to become the king of this new revolutionary technology and you really think they are just gonna let people "jump ship" when a new alternative arrives?? HELL NO!!! FB will do everything in their power to make sure you get depended on the quest ecosystem so that its becomes almost impossible to move on, kinda like how people can't switch from Windows to Linux because that's the os they have been using ever since they were born. There is also this strange obsession with brand loyalty among fans of a product in recent years just look at the stupid console wars consisting of xbox fans, playstation fans and nintendo manchildrens who will argue with each other about their exclusives day and night, that's the future vr users are heading to. That's why in my eyes if you ever buy a quest headset you lose your right to criticise FB on their bullshit, you have already financially gave your support and will continue to do so to play games on their platform so why should they ever care what you have to say. You can go ahead and call me a gatekeeper, a hater or a rich prick but I don't care, sure in the short run the quest 2 headset is a great deal for price and accessibility but I the long run you will probably end up regretting it. The "solution" from Thrill in this video just feels like either optimistic ignorance or an excuse to milk more quest 2 videos.

[@ttamttam1522]

Yeah that pretty much sums up my feelings. Accessible VR is important, and it will happen, but I hope it isn't by Meta's hand. We need to abandon their platform while they're still young and focus on supporting more transparent efforts to make VR cheap.

[@xCosmoz]

Thank you. I’ve gotten into VR only within the last 3 months and have fallen in love. The feeling and potential within the industry is just beginning. Meta will definitely lead the charge for now in the industry but in hopes it will ignite the passion for competition. We need someone to pave the way. I’m still new but I love VR and watch a lot of content regarding it. I don’t want to see it monopolized but I also want everyone to experience the beauty of it.

[@MTG9745]

I love how so many VR KZbinrs are talking about this. I've been thinking of making a video on it myself. Thank you Thrill for doing this for our community. Edit: Why am I getting likes.

[@Tenchinu]

Love the channel, and would love to agree... but this is kinda the same discussion as loot boxes. The corporations see a small, informed, passionate niche that understands what's going on and want change... and a LAAAAAAAARGE, indifferent mass that only wants the product. gotta keep those investors happy :) you want real change? open source!

[@f1n4lr4g3]

Honestly, your channel needs to grow as big as possible. The VR community needs you and other people like you, who can influence and inform everyone about the reality of the VR universe and everything connected to it. I will continue to recommend you to everyone who even has the slightest interest in VR. Keep up the good work, it is essential for the whole VR community!

[@TonyBowick]

Hey, I think you have thought a lot about this and I respect and appreciate both your love for VR and the community, as well as your clear view of the catastrophe that VR will become under the guidance/control of Meta. I would like to challenge your strategy by simply saying that joining something you fundamentally disagree with just to get there faster will never get you where you want to be. There is no hurry with VR, except that WE all want it faster. But VR is inevitable. Making a deal with the devil because I want to be the best guitarist in the world (without the thousands of hours it takes to do it on my own) never ends well for the musician, but it always ends well for the devil. To think that the community can maintain some significant level of control, or even autonomy (as a community), with Meta as the benefactor of VR just isn't realistic. If our goal is really for the health and protection of VR as a concept, and for the VR community specifically, then I say slow down and support healthy competition that stops the snowball, even if it means many people don't get introduced to VR, or don't have an easy entry point. If having an easy mass entry point means that the future of VR is locked into a toxic tyranny - it's better for them to wait and support a healthier, more robust VR future. Having the masses adopt VR in a way that railroads the future of VR is too high a price to pay for such a fundamentally formative technology.

[@penelope-oe2vr]

THIS! WELL SAID! Why support them (meta) when you don't agree with the way they are handling it. Don't give them a penny. Open source should be the only way for VR.

[@alexfrank223]

I don’t really even have the space or time or lifestyle for VR yet and it’s going to be a while until I might get there. I’d say I got my 300 dollars worth from my quest 1, however dead it is. But I don’t think that buying anything else meta right now is worth my future VR experience.

[@robinbernardinis]

Well said. Not recommending the Quest 2 is gatekeeping, but is gatekeeping corporate hell that bad? A stance like this is basically like saying "I like vaping so much, it would be elitist and hypocritical to keep others from the community. Since cigarettes are the cheapest way into vaping, as long as vape pens and juice cost more than cigarettes I am morally obligated to recommend cigarettes to newbies."

[@a8lg6p]

So your suggestion to someone who is curious about VR would be to either take out a loan that they possibly can't afford, or just refrain from ever trying it for the foreseeable future, for the greater good? The more people use it, the more demand there is. The greater the demand, the more other companies will fill the gap. There's nothing Meta can do to prevent that, however much they'd like to. I actually could afford a Valve Index if I really wanted one. And now after a using the Quest 2 for a month, I might actually consider it at some point... If I could be convinced that it was actually better, aside from the feeling of moral superiority it might give me. But people have been talking about VR since like the 60s, and all I've ever heard my entire life is: it may change the world one day, hypothetically... But for now, it's a clunky, awkward toy with bad graphics that makes you sick. There's zero chance I would have thrown down 1K just to find out if it was any good yet.

[@robinbernardinis]

@@a8lg6p Do you think that the lack of competition in VR hardware is due to the fact that potential competitors think there is low demand for VR? That's rich. All the tech giants know exactly what's up. The problem is Facebook managed to gobble up market share by selling the hardware dirt cheap, bring people into the ecosystem, and use their leverage to gain control of game developers, giving them control over the whole VR space. Now the competition can't pull the same move and sell hardware at a loss because FB already has the lion's share of the market, and actually trying to make a compelling product at a good price point is impossible due to the R&D costs and FB undercutting you on pricing.

[@plasius2398]

You are the voice the VR industry needs! I have a developer team getting into VR and I'm sending this video to them!

[@KALEB32154]

I fear that the dream of building up the user base and everyone jumping ship together is incredibly unrealistic. BUuuut at the same time I know that the company must grow and will grow no matter what we do, so it’s best to spread the message as far as we can. Good luck and I hope this gets as big as it needs to.

[@DarkwarriorJ]

To be fair, I did this with Apple and Android. Apple came out with the iPods and iPhones; I jumped to Android later on. The issue is that it only worked because we had the titan that was Samsung bullying their way in; it took a company that basically owns South Korea and makes everything from paper to self-propelled howitzers (K9 Thunder) to bully their way in.

[@reverseflash8520]

Sorry I disagree the time to fight monopoly is now, as someone who cotributes to multiple open source projects waiting until monopolies are cemented is too late. The uphill battle of converting people to Linux or FreeBSD from Windows and Mac or from Android and IOS to UbuntuTouch or anything else feels impossible. The time to win those wars was when the tech was new. We can't give up now.

[@AtomPileB]

Agreed, 100%. Most of the people who will join Meta later on will not know or care about the VR community and VR before Meta. Monopolies get stronger with time and this one is already waaaaay ahead of anyone else. The time is now.

[@afallingtree9114]

@zee it cant be made better without the userbase, your efforts towards using Linux dont go unrecognized by companies.

[@afallingtree9114]

@zee i dont fall into any of those 3 categories and i still enjoy it. so long as it plays all my games and can be riced, im in. you just need to be more open-minded dude.

[@afallingtree9114]

@zee headset TWM rice when?

[@Safouan0]

@zee Are you seriously saying... that VR would be worse if everything was open sourced..? bro what the heck

[@Vincentvermetteprod]

copped a quest 2 yesterday, it's deff amazing but just like you i'm also very aware that this could use major improvements and would love to see more affordable vr handheld (aka no pc required) for the future and not from meta

[@Cancer38]

The jumping ship plan is... A little risky. Not everyone is gonna want to jump ship, or maybe there wouldn't be competition and than we're fucked

[@engineerbot]

The problem is I want to jump ship since I’ve had a quest 2 for about half a year, but I don’t have the money for it. We need someone else to pull a quest 2 move where it’s cheap and affordable but a good offer.

[@PetePeteRepeat]

This is such a powerful conversation - I'm so glad you have stated what we have all been thinking. What started as an enthusiast technology is now the basis of serious philosophical discussion. VR as a whole is based on a really strong community, and all we need to do is invite others to join us in our experiences, and to mold Meta and the VR space to our benefit. And finally, while Meta is “not my metaverse”, quest users are a stepping stone towards the future we want - just don’t let Meta’s vision destroy ours! Thanks for speaking up thrill ;)

[@Ryan-tp2nn]

@BaxiTube what is your opinion and stance on Sony in the vr space? I personally see them as a lesser of two evils as they are a semi closed ecosystem like meta but at least they don't specialize in data mining I'm curious to see Sonys new psvr but I'm admittedly getting impatient and can't afford a PC build at these inflated gpu and cpu prices

[@KingMonkeyEnma]

As an index owner I cant help but feel disappointed after 2 years of playing. The selection of games feels to not have changed since I have invested a 1,000$ into it. Even worse I want to play the new selection of games being released on oculus like RE4 but cant because I chose the seemingly more for less route. I hate this exclusive crap and its driving me outta the market while only giving me regret even though I am someone who would like to experience high quality VR on the index rather than oculus.

[@NajibElMokhtari]

Thank you for this.

[@vavin1881]

You need feature some more VR open source development in your news coverage. It’s a small thing that could help encourage that change.

[@jaih.2124]

Agreed, would love to see open source or indie developed VR news too!

[@xressentials]

He wont he just said he rather make money that affect his channel, so he wont post things that create less views...he will just keep promoting meta is what he said, and this video is to "justify" and make himself feel good about it in hopping people will forgive him.

[@Michael-it6gb]

The gaming industry VR has been a failure, overall. And I predicted this many years ago. It just wasn't "Reality" enough. You can't really grab a physical gun and feel it in your hands and start shooting it with real recoil from each shot, you can't feel the walls in your surroundings, you can't physically jump forward and have the effects of the world around you, touching water or other players and feel the cold or the heat of the environment, the effects of an earthquake underneath your feet. You can't feel any of it. So this isn't virtual reality, this is fake vision and sound reality and it is not enough to emerge yourself in the illusion. And from these confusing effects you'll only get a headache and get dizzy from time to time, which isn't fun.

[@Sail_VR]

Thanks for talking about this Thrill! As a vr indie dev I want to be on the right side of this argument. (The scary thing is I'm Legit scared that even comments like this get seen by Meta and hurt my chances of getting on their platform... )

[@WhatIsMyPorpoise]

@BaxiTube That's harsh. Surviving in the industry means making such choices. And with Meta's presence, it's very risky to limit your audience to only outside of them. A boycott won't achieve much with how much they have ingrained themselves as THE option for consumer VR. Ultimately, the best action to do would probably? be to try to offer creations to as many platforms as possible, but that takes time and effort.

[@Sail_VR]

@@WhatIsMyPorpoise Thanks for sticking up for us devs

[@Sail_VR]

@BaxiTube oof... that cuts deep

[@curlyemmm1232]

@@Sail_VR don’t let it, if you look at literally anyone that has the quest or has even recommended the quest he’s saying the same bullshit to them. It’s clearly a kid that listened for the first five minutes and thinks he’s a hardass.

[@Sail_VR]

@@curlyemmm1232 Thanks. It's hard to not let thing get to you ya when you're called out

[@lvlupproductions2480]

That speech about the Quest 2 being an introduction is so true. I wanted in VR I did a fair amount of research when getting a hmd. Now that I am within the community I want out of the Quest 2 as fast as financially viable for myself.

[@bvneovnail2642]

It`s all true, and simultaneously that`s exactly how google became what it is... user base is everything.

[@DonnieMouse]

just use the quest 2 with ALVR and run it off your pc

[@lvlupproductions2480]

@@bvneovnail2642 agreed I can only imagine how many kids there are asking their parents for better VR where the response is (in a non-memey way) we have VR at home. Even as an adult the cost is still a big wall.

[@lvlupproductions2480]

@@DonnieMouse I get that but I don’t have a rig good enough for VR that is part of the cost for me.

[@donaldcedar7574]

Why is it so bad and what do you wish you would have gotten?

[@SkyeCloud]

My main issue with Facebook and them owning the devs is that I feel it genuinely lowers the quality of VR games. The only real AAA game with have is Half Life Alyx and most of the other games are essentially ports of mobile games onto the PC.

[@TheAngryHumster]

not the only one. Lone echo is also real AAA game.

[@snowzZzZz]

I think rather than releasing entirely new AAA games, the best approach would be to port older games to VR starting with the older generations (so that hardware can catch up). Game companies can either develop their own VR engine or a 3rd party can develop an engine for game companies to use, they they work on porting older games to VR. Not sure how they would handle gameplay, would have to be more of a remaster and it would benefit some games better than others, but it's not impossible and it would be less dauntng than committing to the cost of an entirely new game. Something similar to san andreas for the quest.

[@TheAngryHumster]

@@snowzZzZz bad idea. Look at skyrim, fallout ant hitman. They suck. RE4 VR also sucks, coz you can see that this game was made for screens, lots of moments that ruin the emertion (sorry for mistakes, i know that my english is disgusting)

[@snowzZzZz]

@@TheAngryHumster nah I understand what you mean, your English seemed alright to me. Do you think it's an issue with trying to convert an old game to VR, a lack of effort from the developer, or a bit of both? I guess one issue is if they release a bunch of shit games it might deter people more than having no games at all, but if there was a descent 3rd party that companies could hire to port their games to VR, maybe that's a possibility? I know something similar used to exist for porting console games to handheld, games like quake for the Saturn or doom on the SNES and Gameboy advance were technical feats, but a lot of shit ports happened too. A lot of them used their own in-house game engines. Maybe if that market were to open up and some companies got really good at desktop to VR conversions? I guess working with older engines would have it's fundamental flaws, unless the code was modular enough to change the engine without too much hassle, I'm only guessing since I'm not a developer. Games are bigger now though, although relatively speaking games were big for the time back then too, the main issue is implementing VR in a way that isn't gimmicky. I don't really care how they do it, VR just needs more content.

[@TheAngryHumster]

@@snowzZzZz I think there is lots of reasons why they shouldnt do it. 1)issue with trying to convert an old game to VR, becouse if you wona do it right then you need to do it from scratch, and thats a lot of money on something that lucks trust. Big companies dont like that, thats why ports i mentioned are so bad, small budget and low affort as a result. 2) even now, with huge explosion in quest popularity, there is still too litle VR users, so no company will invest money in creation of an engine for VR only - as i said, its too expensive. I agree that VR needs more content. No, even harder. it PRAYS for new content. New headsets? Releasing every year. Good AAA level content that can become a system seller? I know only 3 games - HL Alyx and lone echo 1 and 2. But... Without content - no new users (i mean meaningfull amount of them). Without users - no reason to do good stuff. Dead loop here.

[@jellomiki]

As someone who got into the concept of VR not with Ready Player One and the Oasis but an old somewhat obscure manga called Yureka with no such thing, I'm not that interested in the concept of an Oasis, or a Metaverse, or a Nexus (as I've read some people call it) but the very idea that something that can be so central to how people concieve of VR could belong to something like Meta and be solely modeled after it's wish, that is trully scary to me. (if anyone read tghis, pls excuse poor spelling, not a native speaker here)

[@PopLadd]

@BaxiTube Notice how they ended that thought with "that is truly scary to me". Please double-check before you try to argue with someone.

[@ashykins]

Exactly. Almost every time in fiction one large company owns a large part of something like vr something bad is always there. Ready player one, sao in some ways, there are plenty of others too.

[@rysea9855]

But what do we do when meta _does_ succeed in making the metaverse? What happens if they get full control over it and most people become dependent on it? What if we fail to manipulate meta? What if this future is one without privacy?

[@en0n126]

I think you overestimate the degree of mainstream acceptance of the metaverse that they're trying to build. They're telling people to have their work presentations and meetings inside the metaverse. These are real businesses and corporations here. These actual businesses are going to say "Have our meetings inside of facebook's world? The same facebook that can't keep their user data private? No thanks. We don't trust you to keep our company and trade secrets private." It's just going to be start-ups who don't have competent lawyers yet having metaverse meetings.

[@Rorybabory]

@@en0n126 companies already do business, run PR, communicate, etc via Facebook, I don't see people deciding to do meetings inside a Facebook product as a stretch

[@xressentials]

they are targetting the kids, not us, they are the ones in danger

[@BillyBadass]

With all the talk of VR and it's history, it shocks me that nobody talks about the grandfather of VR who sold his first unborn son to Zuckerberg and Facebook, causing this in the first place. Palmer Luckey.

[@drewcipher896]

I have never signed into my quest 2 with a Facebook account and it has never even phoned home to Facebook over the internet. I hope the homebrew community continues to grow and we get a proper open source custom firmware for it. It's a great PC headset and the sidequest devs very talented creative people.

[@zeropoint5794]

Valve: creates the most open vr infrastructure you could dream of, with steamvr tracking being openly available for anyone to develop and use Thill: Ah yes, in facebook's position valve would have the same issuea Nope.

[@BunkerSquirrel]

Valve has consistently demonstrated a desire to make VR open and competitive, even going so far as to license their tech to direct competitors of the Index. And tbh, the amount of hardware documentation they make openly available to devs is unheard of in modern tech. If I’m gonna back any company to be the market juggernaut it’s Valve

[@hixel1268]

Yep, my thoughts exactly. If it's the lesser of two evils then Valve is far far less evil

[@vgamedude12]

Yeah I don't even like valve and they are a Million times better than faceberg. I won't buy faceberg trash

[@coreym162]

If Valve wanted to make VR great they'd adopt FB's affordable hardware model. Nope. All about the money with them too. At least Facebook is opening the gate to accessibility even if they do abuse their power. The more accessible the tech the larger the consumer base on game purchases and such. It's a stepping stone only Oculus sought to build prior.

[@zeropoint5794]

@@coreym162 Trying to hold not subsidizing hardware against a company is extremely disingenuous. This option is only viable for closed ecosystems which is exactly the opposite of what Valve is about. The ends don't justify the means ever, so saying "even if they do abuse their power" is an attempt to shrug off the terrible things they do as if it was acceptable only because of that minor good thing they did.

[@notspacegoat2000]

The "meta" editing at the start was amazing and fits perfectly with the music

[@arnv9]

Yo thrill, I love your content, especially the philosophical shit. Keep it up!

[@nemonomen3340]

I'll admit, I've had similar thoughts about simply making FB pay the upfront cost of innovating the VR industry and then dropping them like a bad habit. But I don't think Thrill is taking the threat of FB as seriously as he should. It's nice to think that another company will eventually create a headset and an online community that is strong enough to compete with FB, but there's no guarantee that will ever happen. FB are doing and will do everything they can to corner this market and we also can't underestimate peoples' tendencies to always choose what is familiar over what is smart.

[@Tera_GX]

In most areas whoever grows first remains the standard. When was the last time any of us used a competitor of KZbin? It takes some severe shooting-themselves-in-the-foot like Digg or Tumblr for that to change. I do agree with Thrill's sentiment for the immediate situation, I do feel that it is okay to recommend Quest 2. But most people that I have helped get into VR have agreed to go for the bigger experience of the Index first, and most that went for the Quest 2 first were eager upgrade from it. The big picture of competition is important, I think the current dilemma won't last long.

[@optorch131]

I appreciate your intelligent approach to this topic. I hope you continue to create more videos with this degree of depth with regards to the content.

[@haydenkielbowick2787]

My concern with using meta as a stepping stone and then doing a "mutiny" is that they could just not listen to the community. KZbin is currently turning a huge blind eye towards the community over the dislike button issue and even though everyone is disapproving of it, there's no sign of the dislike button coming back

[@Gramsy]

Absolutely agree. This is THE most critical moment in the history of VR in our lifetimes.

[@isabelleanderson3618]

Absolutely loved your closing remarks. I feel motivated !!!!

[@DracoTheBlack]

From the day the Meta announcement landed I've been thinking about creating an Open VR advocacy non-profit. The goal being to align all the non Meta VR hardware and software makers towards an open, non-monopolized standard. Something in line with the goals of OSVR but without being directly involved in any hardware or software products. I lack the knowledge to do this on my own but I may give it a shot regardless.

[@FirstRunTanker]

Its about time we grab our future by the strings

[@powerofthec5908]

We need to pull the strings and make them ring.

[@Catnippy]

or rather cables

[@jogolord8122]

@@powerofthec5908 fucken knew someone would say that

[@miketetzlaff888]

You're 100% right. PC, consoles, and smartphones went through the same path. One or two leaders that were the only ones in town so they dominated the market, but most of those have more choice now.

[@PhngluiMglwnafh]

Smartphones have two choices: iOS and Android. Consumer PCs have two choices: MacOS and Windows (ChromeOS kinda, but not really. There's the handful of Linux distros too, but they're not much of a competitor on the consumer market). Sure there are choices, but a duopoly is hardly an improvement over a monopoly.

[@Cai_VR]

There's a reason you keep winning the VR influencer of the year awards, and it's exactly this. Yet again thanks for saying what sorely has been needed to be said

[@Extralarse]

I'd rather wait another 10 years for the tech to get cheaper and more advanced than to sell my soul to Facebook.I also disagree that FB is doing something good for VR. I enjoyed watching VR content on KZbin until they took over with the Quest 2. Ever since, I haven't seen ANY interesting VR content on KZbin nor have I seen VR games that caught my interest like HL Alyx did a couple of years ago. Many of the VR content creators have stopped covering VR games on KZbin because there simply isn't anything new to cover and imo that is because FB destroyed the competition with the Quest 2 and bought a bunch of studios. I think the last thing we should do is buy a Quest 2 and support this.

[@MrAndyisReal]

Spectacular video. The issue of what to recommend has been something that’s always in the back of my mind when requested. You’ve broken down the issue perfectly. Thank you for creating this.

[@youplaymenot]

The biggest flaw I see in this logic is believing the fact that Facebook will listen to demands. If they have the user base that you are purposing they will have, they will have the power to dictate what the future of VR is, that is as simple as that. Trying to make demands is I guess better than nothing, but that is a huge flaw in the plan because Meta will Meta regardless.

[@thatlamborghiniguy5826]

Totally agree with that. And I honestly don't think the psvr 2 is going to make a difference given how expensive the ps5 is. The zuck didn't invest that much money on oculus, studios, and vr in general for nothing. He clearly saw the potential a la ready player one.

[@rokisteel4126]

This is an honestly really good take on the whole Meta situation right now and a perspective I hadn't yet considered over my hatred for the malpractices of Facebook. However, there is one single problem I see in this: How do we, the consumers, shape VR, what is the "gun" we are holding Captain Zucc at gunpoint with? Because the only way I see to really do that in a meaningful way is denying the solely profit-oriented business that is Facebook that very profit, essentially boycotting them by not buying their stuff. Am I missing something here?

[@peterlewis2178]

I think it probably would still involve boycotting, just not this early in the evolution of VR. I think the idea is letting Meta bring VR more into the mainstream, so that the industry can grow and there are more passionate people to provide alternatives and competition, and then you would mostly boycott Meta and back the people with all our interests at heart.

[@bauregard2171]

If we consider the how powerful the youtube monopoly is over video streaming and imagine meta with that much power over the metaverse, it's hard to picture any meaningful large scale boycott.

[@smittyvanjagermanjenson182]

The "gun" is being patient. Once another viable hmd comes and it's hopefully not going to be crippled by meta or follow the same practices, we as consumers move on from meta devices. We can't let them rule the augmented reality future, so if enough jump ship it could force meta to change, or they lose an insane amounts of profit by trying not to. As a company it's not a goal to rapidly lose consumers and large sums of revenue.

[@tom23421]

While we grow our numbers with Oculus. Perhaps we should also nudge developers to develop outside of oculus. While helping oculus users to non oculus games.

[@smittyvanjagermanjenson182]

@@tom23421 yes, but in order to do that they need a place to go first, quite a difficult task...

[@JeffWittyArt]

I admit - I was looking at VR for years but what held me back wasn't cost. I'm very fortunate to have a well paying day job currently. What stopped me - was being tethered to a PC. I was (and still am) willing to forgo the best graphics quality in order to have the freedom and interaction that VR provides when compaired to console or PC games.

[@Volker_A4]

That intro was trippy. I like how artistic your content is getting.

[@JasperHuskyFox]

Im scared... I just want to be able to get into VR for the first time, and yet it seems everything is going downhill... Metaphorically, this train is going downhill faster than I can catch up to it and hop onboard. I hope VR becomes open and cheaper for everyone in the future

[@soul-candy-music]

Thanks for putting this out. I JUST today received my first VR system in the mail - the Valve Index, and this makes me feel like it was the right decision - albeit, and expensive one. Looking forward to diving deeper into the industry and community.

[@bryndal36]

The one thing that bothers me about this video is that 99% of the time when someone brings out a video like this, within a year, they either go silent, sell out to the industry or reduce the amount of videos they produce. Please continue to be the 1% cos I really enjoy your content.

[@vgamedude12]

I mean he is already saying don't boycott and just support and buy meta because it will totally get better later after they become even more monopolistic. Not sure about that one.

[@ChezzyKnytt]

Once Valve releases their standalone capable headset, I'll be a lot less worried. Because of Steam and also their philosophy with the Steam Deck, I trust them a lot more than Facebook.

[@ayleks6482]

Facts i trust steam more than a controlling and data selling company like meta, they already sound like monopolizing evil company tbh. Shit sends chills down my spine the way they are presenting it

[@vylbird8014]

Valve doesn't have the best history when it comes to physical products though. Remember the Steam Deck? Or the Steam Controller? Not many people do.

[@ChezzyKnytt]

@@vylbird8014 Remember the Index? I think that's a bit more relevant here. And the Steam Deck is literally one of the reasons I'm excited for what Valve will do

[@Uga41Dmb]

I usually don't care too much about videos like this, but this one might change that. Love that you put yourself out there to say what you want to say. I'm 100% with you.

[@argusmcloud8120]

Woth all due respect, i think you underestimate the mistrust some people have for Meta. To me, the company is less of a ships captain and more of a monsterous kraken, you're just gonna get drowned if you try to steer it, and a wider action would be to avoid feeding it. I stand by that i would not reccomend a quest for someone wanting vr. I saved up for over a year for the index and competent computer parts, and i do not regret this decision. I keep my money away from Meta, and if the industry has slower growth because of it, then so be it.

[@jameskirk4692]

Awesome! I agee with you completely! You did something smart, like saving up for better choice, instead of, like most people, going for easy/cheap choice.

[@BroWolfShadow]

I think this is why you got the VR Influencer award 2 years in a row, cause you don't hold anything back and give the realistic view. Turning a blind eye to the bad things don't change the fact they are not there, in fact I believe it unwittingly encourages bad practices.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

On to the 3rd one... :)

[@xressentials]

Exactly, he should be encouring real change, not sit iddle to it happening all around us....I mean cmon how can you mean such awards then tell people to go destroy humanity?

[@joshuaquick2407]

I'm glad you feel the same way, thank you for your message. I'm waiting for my Lynx-R1 so that I can finally have fun wirelessly without worrying about my data.

[@suparki123]

Honestly, once the technology gets cheaper and other companies start making affordable standalone headsets, plenty people will probably switch just because they don't like Meta.

[@Vintage_Chronicles]

That’s where I am. I cannot afford an expensive headset so I have the oculus 2 until there are better affordable options.

[@The_Bird_Bird_Harder]

@@Vintage_Chronicles We are now brothers.

[@r3dplaysgames]

If valve makes a quest 2 type product it’s over for meta, I can’t wait till that happens

[@remyd8767]

It's really not about the headset. It will be about the platforms and features. Those smaller companies will need too late and will not build a platform more robust than meta

[@MScienceCat2851]

@@Vintage_Chronicles at least u have those lol

[@Pikminiman]

I'm glad to hear you would scrutinize Valve the same way if they were the market leaders, but let's be real. Valve would never push VR hardware or software to be more closed. The Valve Index is impressively modular, and the Steam Deck gives you root access by default! Not to mention, Valve is clearly committed to decoupling PC gaming from Windows using Linux, which is open-source.

[@coreym162]

They are still gatekeepers by having no entry-level affordable tech. You forget everyone isn't a tech nerd. It will fizzle out if they only cater to nerds. A realistic Metaverse isn't built on enthusiasts but, newbies. Grandma effortlessly being immersed in a VR landscape, the medical industry finding applications for it, corporate and freelance affordability. That's how the internet and console gaming boomed the way it did. This gamer elitism needs to die or we will all suffer. Even us tech enthusiast nerds.

[@badlydrawnturtle8484]

@@coreym162 It's not gatekeeping when they literally can't afford to sell it any cheaper. They don't have Facebook's deep pockets.

[@Amelie12]

Gaben does really good stuff, but we should forget that he also wants profit. he is not jesus. but it seems like he care a bit more about the consumer and the general market.

[@passive-aggressive]

I’m so happy to see you using wide text. I’m a graphic designer and that kind of text is very modern and will still be modern in 2022

[@mrpuggylegend1210]

This is gonna be an interesting video.

[@mrpuggylegend1210]

thanks for the heart! ❤️

[@eventhorizonblackhole3884]

I’ve been playing VR for years and know all about the weight, honesty I’d rather have a index but that’s just too expensive for me. Still I really hope that there will be better competition and a fair market. So that the vr industry will grow!

[@pingylv]

literally made a vid talking about this for a bit a week a go, knowing its just me talking into the void. I'm glad a big creator is bringing this up

[@Boogieeeeeeee]

I can't see my previous comment so I'm hoping you didn't delete it. But I'll reiterate: I really love seeing you ideate, it shows your passion. But alas: A community is only centralized by what it subscribes to. And in this case, VR. Other than that, we are fully decentralized and ready to be taken down by what is otherwise an incredibly powerful company that is reaaally good at polarizing people. They do this shit for fun with fb. This sense of urgency doesn't really exist. We don't NEED to have VR shipped to the masses yet. We're good the way we are, "wait" is a perfectly acceptable move until we have more considerably sized players that can solidify a free, open market. Finally, monopolies are a massive threat to any economic and politic system known to man. Even more when the idea of a monopoly comes from the one company that is good at dividing people and our only shot at "having a voice" is staying united, it truly cannot work. May I propose focusing your content on companies that try to deliver affordable VR?

[@jameskirk4692]

I totally agree! Well said! Idon't understand why is it so hard for people to wait, and why we need that VR explodes in the mass market right now. It's totally fine if mass adoption starts in even 10 years from now, especially if that adoption is of open standard that isn't run/owned by greedy and corrupt people. I myself for example have been truly desiring to get into VR so much, from the very start and I have been almost daily casually watching the development of VR, hoping that I will be able to start experiencing VR for myself. And yet, no matter how excited I get very often, I never lose my resolve that, based on my financial and other circumstances, I simply cannot jump into VR waters very unfortunately, even though I crave for it a lot every single day. I am still waiting for my first VR headset that is worth my investment and my support, to come to the market. I think the next Valve's headset really might be the one that delivers my dreams and which I will save my money for in order to buy it, unless it ends up disappointing me like all the headsets so far have been, for one reason or another. If everyone was patient and not so quick to jump ship with anything they can get hands on, without being able to residt their consumer urges, there wouldn't have been such a monopoly like it is now.

[@Boogieeeeeeee]

@@jameskirk4692 Very fair point with "residing to their consumer urges". Meta ain't no stranger to our yearning for consumption. That's why they're coming up with an egregious offer: give us ludicrous rights over your privacy and we give you what you crave (consumption) right NOW. Therefore it creates this sense of urgency which is only conflated in Thrill's eyes since he's a staple of the VR influencer community so naturally people will flock to him for answers. So Thrill being ready to give in to the rotten proposition from Meta isn't great news. We don't need to hold steady as masses. Instead we need our big voices - such as Thrill - to hold steady for us. When they open the gates and say "go", it has to be a legitimate offer, one made in good faith. With Meta, there's no such thing.

[@dustinchristian6043]

But I mean the quest 2 is a great headset for the price with alot of content and you can play pcvr witelessly with it most people could give a shit less about what the company itself is into or doing....which is what Facebook is banking on

[@Boogieeeeeeee]

@@dustinchristian6043 Exactly. The Quest 2 is good value, no doubt about that. We're discussing more on what value YOU bring forward in order to let that piece of plastic capture your attention. Are you giving away your money to a company and that's the end of the transaction? Great! But - if you are offering on a platter: your current and future data, privacy right, control over its use (locked to your facebook account) althewhile feeding a company known for guiding its userbase to division and harm for its own profit - then how could you, in good faith, tell yourself that it's still a great transaction? Imagine this - if Apple came in 2007 and said: we are offering the world an AMAZING device (the iPhone 1) but with it you relinquish your right to privacy and feed us all the information that we need in order to make our clients divide you as a human race. Would the world buy into that device back then? So why do it today? What's the rush?

[@dustinchristian6043]

@@Boogieeeeeeee I get what you're saying but as we can tell by the ammount of people still using facebook/still buying quests most people just don't care...me personally I have a quest 2 but until valve releases a wireless index I just don't see myself switching not because I can't afford it because I can but because I'm a vr user that prefers wireless stand alone or pcvr (I do both)....just can't deal with the wires personally kinda breaks my immersion...also the ammount of content I get with the quest is just more

[@johny79action]

I see Meta's idea of the metaverse as nothin more than DLC for RecRoom, tbh I expected them to follow a route similar to what is seen in the film Gamer! and create Society IRL. Personally I'd like to see Neos VR expanded to 1 open world for all, btw I'm a Rift S owner and despite havin constant issues with it from day 1 I would NEVER buy a quest 2 to replace it I'd rather wait to get something better.

[@DwAboutItManFr]

It is unnaceptable to not own my titles, to have mandatory login, to be tracked, to have to use their store, there is so much innaceptable stuff.

[@DwAboutItManFr]

And there won't be a singular metaverse, this is unnaceptable.

[@ionwerks]

More constructive but I still think you need to concentrate on advocating for more cooperation between the players other than FB. If VRChat, RecRoom and NeosVR devised an open-standard for portals that opened in each other's application they'd instantly have a much stronger Metaverse offering than FB will have for years yet.

[@gdhayze5793]

It’s awesome seeing the start of all of this and being a part of it. We already know what the possible outcomes are going to be but seeing how we get there is a crazy trip to say the least

[@gianz73]

Intelligent KZbinr, not simply enthusiastic. Got me subscribed.

[@yoloninja4798]

I'd pick a secondhand WMR headset. its almost disposable, its so cheap. and its not meta - for a newbie, its a good choice with a clear update path

[@suffy101]

i just bought my first ever vr headset, I never tried vr before, Thankfully it's a valve index and not stinky meta product

[@johnnyokeeffe6577]

I’ve been doing research on VR and the Metaverse for a class project I’m in and during my research I came across a very alarming quote from the creator of VR: “”Jaron Lanier, the computer scientist credited as the father of virtual reality, offers some dark words on the subject. “If you run [the metaverse] on a business model that's similar to the one that Facebook runs on, it'll destroy humanity,” says Lanier, presently a researcher at Microsoft. “I'm not saying that rhetorically. That is a literal and specific prediction that humanity could not survive that.””” I came across your channel while doing research for this project and I find your views interesting on this subject simply because you believe so much in VR. I have a genuine question and I don’t want to come off as an asshole but, why do you believe so much in VR? Do you really think that this technology could really be used to change the world for the better? What world does that look like? Not expecting an answer but in general I think these are questions we should really be asking ourselves

[@smittyvanjagermanjenson182]

This is a survival of the fittest scenario. VR offers an incredible amount of useful simulations for any subject, far more than games or social applications, as long as these simulations are created and applied in real life. The destruction of society comes in when VR escapism is used to replace reality. What I mean by this is, rather than use it for knowledge, majority may just play games or hang out in social apps, wasting away by accomplishment of nothing. My take is "use it right and don't fall into the trap", since this technology is coming, won't be stopped, and is highly addictive. As someone who lived before the dawn of VR it's wise to pass this on to future generations, because there's enough unproductive youth currently wasting time on tiktok.. which to me already hits as destruction of the future..

[@PopLadd]

@@smittyvanjagermanjenson182 I dunno, people were saying the exact same things about the internet when it really started to take off. Also game consoles. And television. Definitely don't let it take precedence of your life of course, but worst case scenario is Facebook takes total control of the VR environment and everyone's data gets harvested. There's still plenty of real life to live that plenty of people aren't willing to give up any time soon. The fear of VR taking over people's lives and leading to the downfall of society more stems from the fear of the unknown.

[@smittyvanjagermanjenson182]

@@PopLadd everyone's data gets harvested no matter who runs this. "A fake world is a lot less painful than the real one", a quote I heard that worries me for the future.. but let's hope for the best.

[@MonkeyBoyOpera]

Smart take, Thrill. I agree, and I'm really glad you broke it down the way you did.

[@MachineCode0]

I'm sorry thrill, love your content and wish I could meet you some day in VR to chat properly but this sounds pretty naïve. There is very little chance of a wholesale abandonment of facebook's meta after they have secured complete market dominance with an even larger user base. As you correctly state they are already almost there, those problems you state at the beginning of the video wont diminish in the future when they have even more users and more games and more companies dependent on their ecosystem for their existence. It will be the opposite, it will get worse. After all we already have evidence of this: time after time Facebook are called out, loudly and publicly in the press and all over the internet for shady practices, repeated massive data breaches and more and it has seemingly little to no effect on them. Why would this change in the VR space? Look at Apple, their anti consumer, anti competition closed ecosystem has had millions of users for decades. They even have an army of hardcore fans who will defend them seemingly forever all while they themselves are continually getting ripped off by Apples practices. The only solution now is to take those first two options that you dislike; tell people to save up, tell them to wait, tell them to boycott facebook. It's the only chance we have.

[@The_Bird_Bird_Harder]

It's a hard sell there. With the pricing on the quest compared to proper pcvr, you're telling people to wait for what could be months, years, or just never at all. We can't see the future, and we can't say for sure that anyone else will bring that accessibility to VR. Edit: Totally right about Facebook though, they're a monolith, and they don't just fade. Their hooks are in deep.

[@MachineCode0]

@@The_Bird_Bird_Harder Yes I know but seeing as there isn't currently a competitor (and probably won't be at that price point unless another big entity decides to also loss lead). But I don't have another solution for how to prevent Facebook controlling the industry. It sucks, but I don't see any other way for the moment.

[@arturo0727]

Telling someone to save up $1k for a decent gaming PC and another $700 for a VR, instead of buying $300 device. XD good luck with that.

[@MachineCode0]

@@arturo0727 even more now with the GPU shortage. Don't think you can get a decent vr card for much under a grand.

[@chumlum]

Coming to the conclusion that we should effectively encourage people to get on board with Meta before deciding, as a whole community and at some indeterminate date, to jump ship is a highly risky proposition. You're more than entitled to continue making videos about Meta and Oculus products/tech but convincing yourself there's ultimately a greater good to be achieved through them seems naive. I appreciate you at least raising these concerns in your videos.

[@MachineCode0]

@Rev It's too late already. Most of the quest user base won't jump even if another comparable headset came out for cheaper than that tomorrow, because they are already in the facebook ecosystem, they won't be able to take their games with them all their content and friends lists and everything. The only way they will is if the competitors device CAN access facebook's store and then the problem of facebook controlling everything is still there. Their stated intention with the meta announcement is that they want to try and control the backend, protocols, standards etc etc. They may actually open their store like that later, maybe not, but either way its bad for VR bad for us.

[@lillypar8415]

This video was so incredible. I’m going to share this with all my friends who care about VR. thank you so much for bringing this to my attention. I’m a Baby VR user with a quest bc I don’t have the money nor understanding for a PC. It’s really nice for you to level with the people who are in that position and who want to take it more seriously in the future but can’t right now. I can’t put into words how excited I am for the future of VR: especially smaller, more comfortable headsets, better battery life and beautifully rendered games for less money. You’re helping shape that future and so many other aspects I failed to mention. Thank you again.

[@adamconsidine6384]

vr sucks

[@cedmanotro]

Getting a used vive is also a great option, with a upgrade path to the index if they like it, I've seen a vive headset for a 100$

[@cedmanotro]

@Game Over So far I've owned a vive and a index, only broke one index cable over the 5 years I've owned them, could be because I've got a polley system tho

[@cedmanotro]

@Game Over Yeah, would be good to test before buying

[@TheThunderGhost]

I absolutely 100% agree with this. Facebook (Meta) and what they're planning on doing with the VR industry is pretty dang scary. Which makes me all the more glad I got my HP Reverb G2 a few days ago. And I'm already happier with this headset. I really do appreciate you voicing your concerns, I really hope things change.

[@PopLadd]

G2 gang G2 gang

[@danielm5161]

It isn't Meta's fault that nobody else is pushing VR to the mainstream. Playstation, Xbox, Apple, Valve, Google, Samsung, Nintendo...where the hell have they been? Making phones and consoles. So Meta made a mainstream vr headset. It was a genius move that apparently nobody else was willing to take and now they are leading the pack in XR technology.

[@RoyHoy]

How tf is it scary? Their building a metaverse. Which is something you VR fans wanted.

[@PopLadd]

@@RoyHoy As Thrill himself said multiple times, we want a metaverse owned and controlled by the people, not by one soulless corporation who's presenting our own vision of a metaverse back to us as if it's their creation.

[@danielm5161]

@@PopLadd But what does “a meta verse owned and controlled by the people” mean exactly? Somebody develops the hardware and somebody develops the software and therefore they own it since they are stuck spending everyday of there life building and maintaining it. I can see why developers would be pissed because they have to give %30 of every dollar to the hardware manufacturer (Meta). I don’t really see why the consumer is pissed though.

[@maestro-zq8gu]

You save VR prices will go down, that may be true, but what about those ludacris GPU price jumps the last few years? Kinda offsets any savings for PC at least.

[@KevinMerinoCreations]

I think your points are well made about the politics of business. I am facing similar choices in the 3Dcommerce domain. I agree that Open Standards and Open Source efforts will play a big part of shaping the future direction of the industry. I am a big fan of what the Khronos Group is doing by bringing the industry leaders together to collaborate on things such as OpenXR and 3DC-Asset-Creation standards.