The Shaman and The Hornsent - Elden Ring

[@TheHonoredMadman]

An in depth follow-up here m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/apbYmWyNh7KraLs

[@rileyknowles8126]

The alien-looking blobs in the jars are shamans from the shaman village where Marika is from (can see their symbol on the forehead) - and apparently the hornsent did this to her people which was a reason she asked her son Mesmer to go obliterate them

[@lonelyshpee7873]

Understandable. Not justified, but understandable.

[@ramoraid]

I wonder if she ever found out about what the inquisitor did to the grandmother/nanaya

[@revenge3265]

Huh. Still, she kinda got a taste for genocide considering everything else she did afterwards. I kinda like that she isn't entirely irredeemable and emotionless though.

[@Foogi9000]

​@@revenge3265 Her entire village got turned into flesh jars so it's understandable she went full Eren Yeager on the hornsent.

[@TheLivingGale]

@@Foogi9000 Is her anger understandable? Definitely. I don't think there's a person alive or dead who'd argue that. But there's never justification for genocide. I think her ancestors would be fucking horrified by some of the things she did.

[@noamias4897]

Love how the NPC Hornsent is like "Marika betrayed us" as if his kind didn't turn her people into living jar abominations

[@ZugzugZugzugson]

well, the term "betray" implies there was an allegiance to betray in the first place, which hints at marika's people having made some sort of pact with the hornsent.

[@anupambarua3407]

@@ZugzugZugzugson The hornsent deserved it.

[@rookie9028]

​@@anupambarua3407nah man, they were tpo drippy for allat

[@MrNamenamenamename]

​@@rookie9028maggot face is drip?

[@donovan4222]

@@ZugzugZugzugsonMy theory is that Marika herself had a pact with them, and Marika sold out her own shaman people to the Hornsent to attain godhood. This would explain who the black knife assassins are, and why they want revenge on Marika by killing her son and ruining the golden order.

[@ColinGruver]

The Greater Potentates' Cookbook describes one Potentate as being so disgusted with the practices of his brethren in Bonney Village that he left and tried to find different ways to create living jars. So it's safe to assume that the jars in the Lands Between are created in a different way with dead flesh instead of living creatures like in the Lands of Shadow.

[@OWlsfordshire]

Thats a retcon

[@Sarah-yh4sg]

This is supported by the fact that Alexander gives himself a power up by stuffing radahns remains into his jar body

[@donovan4222]

@@ColinGruver or it’s possible Marika never really stopped the jars, she just started using flesh from all of the golden orders wars/battles to fill them, instead of forcing people directly into the jar. You can see that most of the biggest jars in the base game are found around the minor erdtrees, almost like they need them to grow.

[@tooru-kun4178]

i liked how they made Marika more human. The description of the minor erdtree is very sad especially "Marika bathed the village of her home in gold, knowing full well there was no one to heal" I imagine that was her last act as human before ascending to Godhood

[@deepindigo1937]

The way in wich the hornsent meld people inside the jars could be a predessesor of grafting an thats why they consider it heretical

[@Hleler]

Oh damn, and since Godrick was a (distant) relative of Marika, he has some numen in him, which is why the flesh binds to him so well

[@chillax319]

@@Hleler And the other nobles had some of that ability left too. Don't forget about the multilimbed noble that wrecks the tarnished at the start of the game.

[@ZugzugZugzugson]

@@chillax319 grafted scion *

[@donovan4222]

@@deepindigo1937 yeah Elden Ring has this recurring message about “primordial soup” and the cycle of life with all things returning to where they came to be reborn. The crucible represents this and the Hornsent worshipped the crucible. It’s where all life and the erdtree itself originated from. Marika represents trying to defy that cycle and with eternal life and getting rid of death, and she constantly pays the price for it. Basically she sacrificed everything about herself and caused untold suffering and misery on the world in an effort to create the erdtree and have a world with eternal life, but it was all built on sacrifices and a lie.

[@kennynyc1555]

this is great

[@stampede274]

Leda's paranoia goes deeper than just distrusting the other followers. It's implied that she's the reason you don't find any other Needle Knights.

[@JoeNeutrino]

It's ironic that Marika's people were made into jar people. After all, all things can be conjoined.

[@ChristopherSkidmore-e1b]

Lmao

[@biovalve1410]

Heresy! :D

[@ChristopherSkidmore-e1b]

@@JoeNeutrino what I don't get is, if she witnessed her whole clan turned into jars why the fuck would she continue the practice in the lands between???

[@jonathan0225]

Personally i find it jarring 😂

[@Foogi9000]

​The difference iirc is that the bodies aren't being forced into the jars rather it's the bodies of people.

[@bellaswift2396]

I guess this is why omen were hated they reminded Merika of the Horndsent and that bleed over because people noticed

[@zsasz21]

The idea of people getting put in jars has been ruined for me by the internet. When i got to the cave where the ghost says "please, anything but the jar" i had to stop for a sec cause i was laughing my ass off

[@rafsandomierz5313]

"You are going to the jar" "NOOO-"

[@zsasz21]

@@rafsandomierz5313 I am Iron Fist *insert anime figure here" Warrior Jar

[@roseq3650]

Did you know the one man one jar guy just died in Ukraine

[@Stephen-so9oi]

​@@roseq3650God can't do all the work lmfao

[@_Hal9000]

Meme potential

[@peteybakedziti8908]

Got a crackpot theory about the Hornsent. Their horns associate them with the Crucible which is basically described as an amalgamation of life and they also seem to have an Empyrean (the old lady that gives you Watchful Spirits) and they have a cultural fixation on the divine (dancing lion is referred to as divine) and Belurat itself is connected to Inir Ilim which seems to be a place where would-be Gods ascend to Godhood (we see Marika do it in the trailer and Miquella do it during the final boss fight) The Hornset of Belurat attempted to recreate the Crucible by conjoining life together (stuffing their victims into pots) and sacrifice them to raise their Empyrean to full Godhood. They failed this, Marika retaliated and started a crusade. In the end she sacrificed the Hornsent to become a God (we see horned corpses all sround the gate of divinity)

[@Ale-dd3ek]

But if Carian Forces took part in the crusade wouldn't that mean that Radagon already married Rennala? By that time I thought Marika was already a god

[@pantonpg]

​@@Ale-dd3ekyep, this is actually a very good observation that many people are not realising

[@Flippingarock]

@@pantonpg carian forces didn’t aid messmer, rellana defected from the royal family to aid messmer whether out of love for him or loyalty. She knew this was a one way trip and sided with him anyway. Now we don’t know exactly the time period of when this crusade took place cause it seems like it be retaliation but I think the retaliation was the sacrifice of the hornsent to become a god. The crusade could have taken place after Marikas marriage to radagon, but that would possibly mean messmer is slot older then melania and miquella.

[@user-me4rw9cb7m]

​@@Ale-dd3ekYou're assuming carian forces joining means they did it for Rennala. Lore in SOTE states she did it for Mesmer. Carian are old as old as far as the lands between. People also keep assuming Radagon and Godfrey were the only men she could have possibly been with in order to have Mesmer and Melina (Mesmer item states Melina is Mesmers sister). It was more likely the guy that goes full chaos lord in the abbysal Forrest. It talks non stop about the "cardinal sin" he committed. Just like Marikas "cardinal sin" that results in Mesmer and likely Melina. They were either twins or very close to age. Both are fire based. Marika is soul magic based, seems she repurposed Melina, likely due to her being the gloam eyed queen lore always says gets beaten by Marikas shadow.

[@peteybakedziti8908]

@@Ale-dd3ek hear me out, Marika and Radagon had Messmer before the two of them became 1 being. After Radagon leaves Rennala to go back to Marika, that's when Miquella/Malenia are born. Messmer is most likely a son of Radagon given the red hair, striking resemblance to Malenia without their helmets on, and being born with the flame of ruin in him which is associated without the Giants (likely Radagons lineage)

[@sulphurspanic26]

One thing I noted is that the old lady calls Merika a harlot in the opening to the dancing dragon fight. While innocuous on it's own the spell Minor Erdtree says its light is gold without order, kindness. In other words its gold magic which is only gold, pure unalloyed gold like what Miquella used to make prosthetic and resist the power of outer gods. This unalloyed kind gold seems to have only been able to heal, so my thought is that after her village was destroyed when she was a girl, Marika eventually worked her way up through Hornsent society using this unalloyed gold but eventually betrayed them by taking some power from their Lord or god and alloying that power with her own gold to improve upon the Minor Erdtree spell, creating the original Erdtree.

[@legendaryguy8853]

Very cool speculation.

[@Wolf-bz6kq]

I speculate that Godfrey was a native to belerat and Marika SEDUCED him and he BETRAYED the hornsent

[@sk8legendz]

@@Wolf-bz6kq that would explain his connection to the crucible

[@Florjb0rjTheFloorboard]

The word used is "Scrumpet" but the sentiment remains the same.

[@zach942]

Godfrey is from the badlands tho we know there are more lands than just the lands between and the shadowlands because the samurais armor describes a place called the land of reeds ​@Wolf-bz6kq

[@naka3339]

It seems Marika children were "cursed" by most people she prosecuted. Godwyn/Melina - Death, Rykard/Mesmmer ( who also got fire giant god ) - Serpent, Malenia - Rot ( apparently the rot god awoken because Mesmmer genocide ), Ranni - Moon ( because she fucked up the Carians ), Mohg/Morg - Hornsent, Radahn seems to follow up the exiled Godfrey footsteps of lust for war. And Miquella it seems to mirror her the most, seducing/manipulating people into his quest to become a god and enforce his own views into the lands between.

[@Turian_Hustle]

Great comment

[@reign1594]

Godwyn and messmer weren't cursed

[@nowherenight5717]

​@@reign1594He had a Giant fire snake of doom inside of him. As much as it is cool as hell its still a curse. Or at least is not normal, come on

[@reign1594]

@@nowherenight5717 I genuinely didn't mean to put messmer lol, I meant put rykard. My bad

[@unclet9825]

Honestly, based on what happened to Marika's people at the hands of the 'Hornsent', its no wonder she came back with a vengeance and murdered them all, then barred all Omens from her society. Not saying what she did was good, but yknow- I understand it now. Either way, Great video Madman!

[@Tulip_bip]

yea, this isn't meant to justify her actions, it's just meant to explain them. this is trying to show us that marika was a very different person before becoming a god, just like miquella. marika used to be a kind and loving person, but the destruction of her home and her loss of self from becoming a god made her set on a path of revenge and war

[@groundhight7446]

​@@Tulip_bipRogier mentioned that Golden order used to be very open-minded It implys that Marika used to be kind goddess since she is the one who spreads Golden Order .But she becomes a cruel goddess with the passage of time. I guess one of the biggest reason is mother of fingers deceive Marika and order her to genocide fire giant and nomads

[@Tulip_bip]

@@groundhight7446 Remember that the crusade she sent messmer on was kept a secret, nobody knew about that, and it happened early in the tjmeline

[@gregorylaufend2570]

Marika did nothing wrong!

[@MrWinthrup]

This is a random connection I made, but the Bayle Mountain peak looks a bit like horns, or fingers... I wonder if the Hornsent saw it as religious, I think it's pretty visible from Belarat.

[@bertyamgeebler1865]

interested in how the hornsent and midra/frenzy tie in - it seems like his 'punishment/damnation' was enacted by them - his grace site is also called 'discussion parlor' iirc which i found intriguing

[@eurongreyjoy2]

I'm wondering if Midra is Marika's father, why does Nanaya hold her belly in the portrait? Why does the painting of the Manse in the past look just like the Hinterlands? Why do both their names start with M and end in A in a game where names reveal lineage so often?

[@Uber_GoobTube]

​@eurongreyjoy2 oh fucking duh of course that's Marikas father. His lineage must be from that village, but im curious what the grandmother figure mentioned is. I only found one piece of lore relates to the grandmother.

[@UnclePunchalot]

​@@Uber_GoobTube, wait a sec, so Maliketh was also Midra's son? Or he was Nanaya's son? (he's Marika half-brother according to lore)

[@gothxm]

@@eurongreyjoy2 thats likely the abyssal woods before the madness set in. i think this theory is a huge stretch.

[@chillax319]

@@UnclePunchalot I think it's more of a symbolic/ritualistic type of "half-brother" same as other shadows that protected Empyreans.

[@cjh.1920]

The shaman flesh easily melding with others makes me think about marika radagon. I’m in the camp that they weren’t always one being.

[@ramoraid]

They never were one being, radagon red hair is the biggest indication of this. In order for him to have red hair he either needs be born from the union of a giant and human(?) or use a lot of fire magic. The fire giants only gained their red hair once they decided to take the power of the fell god and use it.

[@revenge3265]

The idea that they have always been one being has never set right with me honestly.

[@TheHonoredMadman]

Radagons intense hate for his hair is a good indicator that atleast a piece of a fire gisnt was used in his "creation" that was my read on it atleast

[@vali5976]

For me. It got me to think about godrick and his grafting ability

[@UnclePunchalot]

​@@revenge3265 What about St. Trina and Miquella? They both have different hair. I personally think it's a curse of the giants. Marika simply could have separated Radagon the same way Miquella separated St. Trina (there are alredy 2 more examples of such phenomen "Darian, Hunter of the Dead - Devin, Beholder of Death", "Miquella-Trina"). the quote: "O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self."- sound like he always was her other self, but didnt participate in crossing divine gates. Maybe giants were targeting to curse Marika but unitentionaly hit Radagon because they are essentially the same person. Radagon could have hated his hair because it reminded of all the monstrosities Marika committed in the name of her order.

[@NATEHIGGERS97]

In many religious imagery across the world especially in buddhist religious imagery, sinners in hell are depicted as being stuffed into pots together so as to punish and cleanse them in hell in pots so that they can be born as saints in the next life. It seems the hornsent did the practice in actuality to whom they considered sinners so as to punish and cleanse them and then turn them into "saints". It also seems like the corpse/statue inside the tree might have been some sort of parental figure to Marika and Marika became a god and got vengeance so hard that omens are still hunted when we arrive. She might have also created an immortal order so as to escape her past of losing her family and people which may be why she plucked out the rune of death so none of her family dies. This may also provide an insight as to why she broke the Elden ring when Goldwyn died.

[@yudistiraliem135]

Well people kept saying she did that out of feelings etc for Goldwyn. But at this point Goldwyn screwed up the rebirth and became cancer at the root of erdtree. The whole schematics she need for her rules are ruined at this point and it’s just makes sense to realized a new start is needed even if it’s only continuatuon of her golden order (normal ending) with the different cycle of death and rebirth.

[@featurelength5086]

I think the shaman/numen connection is the most important piece of the game's lore. Considering Marika marrying/merging with Radagon seemed to have elevated Radagon's previous children somehow, it makes me wonder if Marika somehow did that to the Tarnished in general. Maybe having Marika's grace is how the PC Tarnished can safely learn so many heretical incantations, why we can learn Dragon Communion without succumbing to addiction, hell maybe Melina and Torrent literally merge with us when not in use.

[@lucabuson5322]

The elevation of Rennala and Radagon's children to demigods was a half-truth. They gained the political status but they were always been demigods as Radagon Is a part of Marika. Also Melina separates from us in Leyndell so I can't see a connection here

[@andrw2k9]

⁠@@lucabuson5322when we reach Marika’s bedchamber in leyndell, Melina offers to share the echoing voice of Marika, who says to radagon “Thou’rt yet to become me. Thou’rt yet to become a God”. This line proves that it was only Marika who had actually obtained Godhood. So the elevation was likely a full truth.

[@lucabuson5322]

@@andrw2k9 @andrw2k9 Ok, but according to Marika Radagon's purpose was never to become a god, but to be the second Elden lord (and to bring the full control of the Elden ring to one and only entity, while still split in two, I suppose). I have always interpreted that speech as a way to keep Radagon at his place, like "ok, you're a part of me, but you are not a god while we are split apart" Sorry if my english isn't perfect 😌

[@diegoalderette6485]

man, the quest for the carian guy was so awesome. being stumped on finding the last hallowed ground, sitting at the grace in the room before gaius, decided to go make a sandwich and think. i did the o mother emote in front of the marika statue as a funny little "lord give me a sign" and then BOOM! I yelled "YYYYYOOOOOO!" so loud i scared my neighbor lmaoo then pulling up to the shaman village, (i immediately thought of the spirit in that shack) seeing the baby erdtree, then grabbing the hair talisman. 10/10

[@davidfrancisco3502]

Where's that Marika statue that can send us to the village by doing that emote?

[@diegoalderette6485]

@@davidfrancisco3502 shadow keep black gate, the room to the right of the grace.

[@TheHonoredMadman]

Yo when he was holding the finger creeper he totally won me over

[@VultureXV]

The Furnace Icon and the new Lion headed Imp make me think that the Fell God of Fire was actually supposed to be the "Lion God of the Sun." It must have been either banished or it left on its own, because the Sunflowers (which are supposed to be it's floral avatar hence the Scadutree Avatar being a Sunflower instead of a Tree) only face the Erdtree. I feel this is in relation to the Original Sin; the banishment of the Lion God of the Sun and the invasive planting of the Erdtree, forever casting those that worshiped the Divine Beasts _under it's shadow._

[@GonK90]

13:17 poor phantom guy suffering messmer's rage 😣

[@azure4622]

Holy shit he's dead

[@TomPerryification]

Hahahaha nice one

[@LWmusik]

The whole "there's no good guys but really no bad guys either" thing that fromsoft usually does reminds me a lot of... well, real life

[@TheHonoredMadman]

Lol i just got ornis ashes. So the horned warriors claim to descend fron the original bird man

[@theangelofdeath7750]

Aldia video when? (Lol no worries bud just giving you a little hell)

[@cosmicbabies]

"stuffing Numen into jars'? I'll have you know they were offered well-nigh sainthood, sir

[@Narokkurai]

So basically, the Ancient Dragons needed an army to fight their mutated Drake kin, so they used the Crucible of Life to uplift a bunch of humans to be Dragon-Men, and their descendents became the Hornsent. The Hornsent were basically mutants themselves, but they revered their mutations and shunned the people born without them. Their use of helix motifs show they had an abstract understanding of genetics, and either engineered or discovered a new kind of lifeform in the Numen. Numens' bodies were incredibly malleable, and seemed to have mutagenic properties as well, so the Hornsent harvested them to try and build a Divine Gate that would allow them to ascend to an even higher existence than the dragons themselves. Unfortunately, one rogue Numen rebelled when they came for the people of her village...

[@colorpg152]

no where the hell did you get the idea hornsent are dragon man?

[@Narokkurai]

@@colorpg152 The similarities between the Winged Hornsent, which are stated to resemble the very first Hornsent ancestors, and the Dragon-Men. The Hornsent revere their ancestors and the gods of the sky, but they've forgotten that those gods are merely dragons. The story is all about people being abandoned by their gods, so it makes sense to me that the Hornsent would be abandoned and ignored by the dragons who first created them.

[@level1dodo896]

So the hornsent built the divine gate out of melded bodies similar to the gaols and living jars, with the same goal in mind? But instead it’s also utilizing that spiral motif of the crucible which the divine gate itself seems to collect this crucible energy like a funnel at the end of the spiral

[@_Hal9000]

Dragons be like, lets add a little mutagene here and there and.... ohhh shit...

[@Narokkurai]

@@_Hal9000 No wonder Faram Azula is populated almost entirely by beastmen. The dragons probably realized they fucked up by uplifting humanity and tried again with servants who were easier to manage.

[@markiefoo]

I think Numen were kind of like aliens to the Hornsent, they arrived. They were the New Men

[@abeard1]

Best Elden Ring creator. Top quality production and narration.

[@VykeDragonFucker]

B tier

[@TheAstyanii]

It's interesting to consider the possible reasons why Marika chose to remove Destined Death. Maybe she was traumatized by the tragedy of her village, and demanded that she never see those she loves die. Perhaps she was immeasurably selfish, and she knew that if she could never die, then her reign would be eternal. Most concerning is that she may have removed Destined Death because of her hatred. She did not want those she hated to simply die once and be reborn, she wanted them to suffer eternally. Destined Death did allow for one to lose people, but it also meant stories had endings and things could be completed. It is its removal that resulted in the curses placed upon Malenia, Miquella, Mesmer, Mohg, and Morgott, and her children were doomed unless either Destined Death was returned or something usurped the Greater Will. I doubt Marika was so foolish as to not connect the lines, so it begs the question: why did she willfully keep Destined Death stricken from the Golden Order? I think this question proves Marika did not do it for love.

[@austinhosier8003]

My theory is that Marika is actually the first successful Jar Saint the Hornsent created. It would explain why she is also Radagon being a composite of many different people. It would also explain why the Hornsent view it as a betrayal. Having their perfect ritual emperyan vessel of godhood, essentially an alchemic Rebis, turn on them after achieving godhood. It’s also very likely the divine gate was made from the same process of merging shaman flesh so it’s a double whammy.

[@TheHonoredMadman]

Adding to the list of things i forgot, midras spear, the hornsent are the ones who "executed" his ass

[@sugarhoneyprincess6025]

One of the things about the hornsent is that they only represent part of the Crucible, there ARE other aspects fo it, there are more. The Horn, The Feather, The Scale and The Flower. If the crucible is like the wellspring of all life then even Marika's people were also touched by the crucible, very like the Flower(or tree) crucible. Their flesh was able to meld with other's very easily, like trees and flowers. It's possible they reproduce asexual, see millicent and her sisters (but this could be speculation on my part lol). I think most of them are weak to fire, and ice with messmer, things that plants are very susceptible to. Numens were long lived, much like trees. Golden order has an affinity for plants and flowers. See the amber, dew, seed and erdtree talismans. It cultivated miranda flowers for their pollen in the perfume arts. For whatever reason the Land of Shadow had a preference for the Horn and feather crucible and likely looked down on the others.

[@WynterLegend]

I look forward to more on this. The Hornsent, Ornis Birdmen, and the Crucible are really interesting. I kinda wish the DLC delved deeper into that pantheon. I doubt they'll ever make another DLC. But, something that would allow you to shrive the world of the existing Gods influences, and become one yourself, would be quite interesting to me.

[@InkelSA]

My theory is that Marika's betrayal may actually be two betrayals. She betrayed both the Hornsent and her own people, the Shaman/Numen. I think that Marika gave the hornsent the idea of using the Shaman/Numen as the foundation for the gross mass of flesh inside the living jars. So, why would Marika do this to her own people? I think she knew that through this process, it would eventually create what she needed to become a god. I think that the thing Marika pulled the golden strands out of in the story trailer, which she used in the Divine Gate to become a god, was one of those living jar creatures. As we follow Miquilla's journey through the land of shadow, all of the crosses that he leaves behind talk about his sacrifices. Sacrificing his body, sacrificing his love, etc. all to become a god. So, what did Marika sacrifice to become a god? I think it was her own people. Her second betrayal, this being her betrayal of the Hornsent, is her lie that these living jars would create "saints" when actually the living jars were just a tool to make her a god. And once she had obtained her godhood, she sent Mesmer to destroy the Hornsent and lock their lands away so that no one would ever discover her betrayals and what she had done to obtain godhood. I may be completely off base, but it just seemed odd that Marika had survived and had been labeled a betrayer by the Hornsent, a race who slaughtered Marika's own people. The Golden Braid item found in the Shaman village talks about it being Marika's prayer, her wish, her confession. What did she have to confess? Why would the Black Knife Assassin's, who we're told are also Numen, kill Marika's golden child Godwyn? Perphaps it was revenge for what Marika had done to their people? Marika tells her demi-god children to make something of themselves, but if they don't they will amount only to sacrifices. I think she knows very well the power that can come from these kind of sacrifices...

[@tylergalligani1599]

You need to post this in more places to make sure it gets seen. I genuinely think you may be onto something here

[@thelionofjudah5318]

Yeah she betrayed her own people as the numen are banished to the caves and marika follows the greater will rather than the lord of night/moon.

[@EtheonStarWanderer]

But the place from where Marika gets the weird strands of hair or whatever it is, is fabric, but we see no fabric in the living jars beyond the eyes

[@Neuviletteiudexofmemes]

I don’t think so. Her motivations seem to stem from trauma, chiefly her desire to remove Death from the world, as if she refuses to lose anyone ever again, and then had her soldiers destroy any and all potential competitors. People who could harm the Tree, People who could read and alter Fate (who she eventually compromised with), and so on. Furthermore her actions against Omen, even her own children, suggest to me a genuine hatred. She blamed THEM for what happened to her people, not herself. No while I think this theory is creative, I think Marika truly was just once a girl who lost her loved ones to a barbaric and wretched religious practice… … which makes the transition into what she became all more poignant.

[@devonboyd]

@@Neuviletteiudexofmemesbut what if she was so ashamed of her actions and that was the one secret that could never come out. She just genocide their people to keep her lie from ever coming out. Using them to create her godhood then, punishing them for eternity, and hiding them away in the shadowlands where she has her son who is a abyssal serpent to keep them forever away from becoming gods of their own.

[@darkbornelines4587]

The fact that this whole epic, dark, cosmic horror fantasy, with crazy creatures, gods, dragons and what not, comes from the fact that some mofos decided to put people into jars, is kinda funny.

[@Th0rn5555]

I think the omen nightmares are of the lamenters, after all, it terrified the hornsent.

[@jm0112]

I appreciate you putting together some of lore. Even if the dlc didn't answer many of our questions there's still lore to be had

[@stephenjenkins7971]

It answered a lot, actually. I think most of the timeline we know of is pretty clear now.

[@VictorIV0310]

@@stephenjenkins7971Answered a lot in a surprisingly straightforward manner.

[@pumpa244]

damn now i see it . The spiral is a recurring theme in elden ring . but now for the first time i noticed even those shade nobles while praying on their knees have their hands twisted into spiral...thats an awesome little detail

[@azurespectrum1985]

Caterpillar mask is iconic. The cape is too but the defence is like a butterfly, goes great with the new halberds!

[@samwiseganja634]

i’ve been thinking that maybe both the cut/uncut omen in and around leyndell appear much more mangled and savage powers than the hornsent because the crucible has funneled their life force into them. Being described as both an amalgamation of all life and a spiral, it could mean that the crucible works as a kind of reincarnation. The hornsent probably had to deal with it but maybe on a lesser level, instead having rituals and cultures built on it instead of being literally haunted by the amalgamation of souls within them. Point being, the new generations of omen born under the order of the erdtree after the banishing of the shadow realm are born with the added masses, both physically and psychologically, of the massacred civilizations of crucible peoples by marika

[@ScarlettSpitfyre]

I've seen a theory somewhere that Hornsent and Shamans are both Numen. Different time in a civilization. Crucible affected both the Shaman and Hornsent in different ways: Shamans were made malleable, with long life span, Hornsent were made with horns all over. Quite a theory and explained alot of things.

[@todd3143]

i think that like mother like son, marika also employed/charmed people to assist her on her path to divinity, and she probably made some promise to the hornsent in order to access the gate of divinity at the top of enir ilim. after gaining access to belurat and enir ilim, she betrayed the hornsent by tasking messmer with absolutely destroying them as seen in the trailer. im also guessing that miquella would probably not fulfill his promises either. i think hornsent's invasion is weird as well. ansbach's quest informs him to kill miquella. thiollier's quest informs both him and us why miquella must be stopped. when hornsent decided to take his vengeance upon marika's children, i was for sure convinced that he would help me stop miquella, but he didn't. my headcanon is that either he was charmed by miquella again and is now used as a weapon to prevent us from burning the thorns, or he figured out that we were guided by grace all along, making us an agent of marika, and he wanted to start with us first

[@Josh-vx4zf]

Thst bong rip towards the end got me to sub, hardest confused laugh ive had in a while. Hope we're all enjoying the dlc :D

[@Wolf-bz6kq]

I believe i found the old hornsent woman without the mask and she said marika's bloodline was cursed which is the origin of the Omen Curse this is why they were shunned, it was a reminder of Marika's enemy

[@Turian_Hustle]

I love this channel. It’s like chatting with a friendly stranger that you just met at a bar; finding common interest in Elden Ring lore over some drinks.

[@Serjuh]

6:45 It is quite possible that the misbegotten are descendants/clan of Hornsent or a clan of different origin around Hornsent turf as the Grafted Greatsword reads: "A lone surviving champion from a country now vanished was so determined to continue fighting that he claimed the swords of an entire clan of warriors." -"A country now vanished" aligns with the Shadow Land being veiled out of existence. -"Continue fighting" could imply that Messmer's crusade at some point tackled a misbegotten clan OR the misbegotten were wronged by the Hornsent similarly to the bloodfiends; "Long ago, a subjugated tribe discovered a twisted deity amongst the ravages of war, and they were transformed into bloodfiends. The mother of truth was their savior." - Bloodfiend Hexer's Ashes -The name "Grafted Greatsword" goes in hand with the practices committed by the Hornsent, I.e; grafting shamans and criminals to "create" saints -The appearance of the misbegotten is rather similar to that of the Hornsent, and additionally misbegotten can be found throughout the Shadow Land. Most notably around mines. The DLC kinda implies the Hornsent were trying to 'achieve divinity' yet not all methods were considered legitimate by those of the tower (presumably the capital/center) as the Lamenter's Mask reads: "This transformation tallies with the state of a denizen of paradise, but the people of the tower denied and hid it from the world. In their foolishness, they viewed true bliss with deep fear." Could be that the misbegotten at large were a sect of Hornset who deemed their way of achieving divinity would be grafting themselves with aspects of the crucible. Some have wings "The Aspects of the Crucible: Wings" All have tails "Aspects of the Crucible: Tail" That could also be why we see a misbegotten warrior fight alongside a crucible knight in Redmane Castle. Alternatively they could've been a tribe in the Shadow Land that transformed into the creatures we now know due to subjugation, war, or w.e else and found their savior in what we know as the crucible or what its progenitor would be.

[@McDudes]

Shamen in the Japanes text is Miko = Shrine Maiden. Meaning it's a profession therefore I think all shamans was Numen but not all Numen was shaman

[@lurksmcgee]

10:32 - this is actually a good point, the jars may be there and empty because they were being used to fertilize the Erdtree and minor Erdtrees to be reborn...

[@writerblocks9553]

Using the omen mask and omen cleaver is so diabolical

[@marinalexanduradu7384]

i am sure that marika hated the hornsent so much that she persecuted anything that even slightly resembles them, which is why omen are so hated in the lands between

[@zacharythompson9791]

History is written by the victors.

[@k2geekd]

the omen seem genuinely different from the hornsent! They look like a combination of the hornsent and bloodfiends, we do know that unlike the hornsent, the omen have afflicted blood by the formless mother

[@AGxbunny]

He invaded you because you are tarnished Even if tarnished are looked down upon in the lands between they are still a product of The Erdtree and Grace an enemy in other words therefore The tarnished was not exempt from his revenge... He implies as much each time you speak with him.

[@vonzler]

I found it quite funny how you showed Radahn, when you said „Lions are okay but no horns“. While Radahn kneels right there with two big horns attached to his lion helmet. Dont get me wrong please. Great video! Just a little thing.

[@stevenboddy4232]

Would have been dope, if at the end, one of the endings allowed the veil to be removed and both lands reunited

[@Bashbekersjiw]

Tecnicaly this Is the cut content finale if we side with miquella ...there Is a video about this

[@gunsevenwhillans420]

The Blood Star and the Mother of Truth are not the same god as far as we are concerned. The Mother of Truth has bloodflame, communes with those who can and cannot see alike, and is the patroness of those considered to be "cursed" by the society (Omens, Misbegotten, Bloodfiends, etc). The Blood Star has thorns, communes only with those who cannot see, and doesn't care if you're being ostracized from society.

[@pidgeonscythe73]

The caterpillar mask reminded me of the wormfaces.

[@alberthollow1786]

Hell yea!Finally dlc lore videos!Looking forward to future videos

[@grapefruitsimmons]

Bro is singlehandedly puttin SmoughTown and Vaatis slackin asses outta business

[@10hawell]

Yeah they are probably in shock from understanding that two years of waiting were wasted for us to get sucky lore.

[@grapefruitsimmons]

​@@10hawelltheyre tryin to make detailed, expansive lore videos when there really isnt any lol hopefully they fix that and the lack of items in the open world with a patch

[@theultimatetactician1712]

Vaati is lowkey washed, been for many years. Only covering the really obvious and also supposedly taking from other creators without crediting(cough cough, paleblood hunt). Except the pretty good dragon video a while ago. Smoughtown is lowkey banging tho, same with hawkshaw really great, unique and kooky topics.

[@peteybakedziti8908]

Vaati has always ripped off other lore creators and lore threads from reddit/steam forums/4chan. How he's known as "the lore guy" after he downright plagiarized Paleblood Hunt is a mystery to me

[@kingleoverse]

@@theultimatetactician1712 nothing last forever

[@bobbywalker2980]

Whats crazy is the feeling of nostalgia like weve been here before and thats because we have . Ds1 ,2,3 Bloodborne, Sekiro, All storys running concurrent with the other . Bleeding together the worlds like they did in this expansion. Such a beautiful dlc.

[@yharnamiyhill787]

I noticed that all of Mareka's children are afflicted by outer Gods. Either Giant's Flame, Blood, Rot, etc. It's actually quite tragic, given to where Mareka came from. In the end, she was still trying to break the binds from Gods.

[@producerdevelopment]

Marika

[@TheHonoredMadman]

Really wishing i discovered the damn abyssal woods before i started recording this lol but ah well more for part 2

[@jacobbenjamin2664]

Even if you miss stuff this kind of format is pretty cool. You’re never against amending a statement later, and it’s kinda like we’re going through your discoveries with you. And because you don’t have textbook knowledge a lot of the stuff you talk about isn’t super spoiler-ey. Kinda like you’re just talking about the game as you understand it to a friend who also plays the game. They’re nice to have in the background while I investigate Bonny Village lol.

[@yeomanbasket]

Could the Lamenter be the being that haunts the Omen in their nightmares?

[@lulute8]

I allways saw the Omen as a equivalent of Demons in Elden ring, but with the hornsent in the picture now i'm pretty sure that they are the demons, and their destruction is a reference to Sodom and gomorrah and their tower being the tower Babel

[@VictorIV0310]

20:48 When you think about it, it makes a twisted amount of sense as to there seems to be so many spirits of people and creatures in the Land of Shadow and why Marika removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring; It's to prevent anyone in the Land of Shadow from dying and thus, Messmer's crusade never ends. Marika hates the Hornsent so much that she didn't simply want them to die, she wanted them to suffer for all eternity, turning the Land of Shadow, their own homeland, into hell where the crusaders can brutalize, scorch and impale its denizens even when they've long passed into nothing but spirits, all the while Messmer's Shadow Keep looms over the land like Barad-dûr from Lord of the Rings and the Scadutree stands tall and mighty as the Erdtree's shadow, a constant reminder that the Hornsent are condemned to an eternity of brutality under Messmer's rule without even the benefit of an afterlife. Since every hell needs a devil, Marika chose her son Messmer to fulfill that role. On a related note, the design of the furnace golems seems to be a sort of twisted karmic retribution towards the Hornsent approved by Messmer and Marika. The shamans were mutilated, then stuffed into jars to become saints by the Hornsent so in response, Marika orders her son Messmer to wage a brutal, genocidal war against the Land of Shadow with his most prominent war machine being the massive furnace golems where Hornsent themselves are stuffed inside to serve as fuel for the machine as it marches over the land as an instrument of terror, destruction and mockery with its horned mask of the fell god of fire the Hornsent so feared.

[@beansnrice321]

The horned lions in the main game also have that white hair.

[@TheHonoredMadman]

Great catch, i shouldve mentioned that

[@beansnrice321]

@@TheHonoredMadman I'm pretty sure that blue/red glowy worm guys also have white hair.

[@pathfindersavant3988]

Theory: The Ancestral Followers are the human descendants of the Hornsent, or at the very least were once part of their culture before degenerating after the fall of their civilization. The parallels between their cultures are too strong to ignore, and the fact that the AFs are found in Palace Ruins that bare similar appearance to Hornsent architecture (with both civilization ruins baring Mesopotamian influence). Also, a fun thing I found out: The Blacksmith Golems can be effected by the Crystal Darts like the other stone enemies in the base game. Meaning that there's a strong chance that the Catacombs where originally built by the Hornsent, or some society capable of their Smithscript arts.

[@Dastardly_Duo]

12:40 He loses his mind due to his overwhelming desire for revenge. Leda even says she's not gonna hunt him anymore because he's just gonna get himself killed soon anyway

[@spracketskooch]

And he did. Ironically he met his end from Messmer's spear.

[@stuff12341]

I don't think Marika left her son Mesmer in the land of shadow out of malice or to use him as tool. It's clear that she loved and cared about him greatly from "Blessing of Marika" description. We know that event in land of shadow happened before main game, so it is likely that Marika left Mesmer in the shadowland to reduce the influence of Fell god and sealed Fell God in order to save Mermer.

[@BLK_MN]

Hornsent actually sided with Leda against me before I went to stop Miquella. Leda or Miquella convinced him that I was Marika's champion and Lord of the Erdtree. So he wanted revenge against me by association to Marika, but I think my kindness to him earlier made him think I was setting him up to be betrayed, that's when Leda took advantage and manipulated Hornsent

[@SousyToto]

I love your videos. Feels like I'm discussing lore with a mate rather than being told the story.

[@speakeraugust]

13:20 that poor ghost getting trusted into the sky in terror.

[@battlericky17]

Finally done w the dlc, catching up on your content 🫡

[@aranthur]

Interestingly, there may be another biblical reference in the hornsent. After Moses climbed a mountain and met with God, learning from him the Ten Commandments, his interaction with the divine caused his head to emit a shining light visible to his people upon his return But! The originial word used to describe this light was mistranslated at one point and it became a common belief for a while that after his encounter with the divine, Moses came back with HORNS on his head instead, and you can find a number of paintings and statues depicting him this way

[@milesnewman8773]

Its been a while since I've tuned in due to the lack of new elden ring content but with all this stuff in the dlc that gives us so much important context to things we already know while embellishing on it further, I'm very excited for further videos from you, you always give a focused analysis of just enough information for me to handle, a perfect meal of knowledge to enjoy

[@tifosiye]

Just started NG+ and Godrick’s last words about returning to the home bathed in golden rays makes so much sense now. He’s talking about the shaman village! And the reason he could make grafting work was probably because of his partial shaman blood

[@akalixevelynn2932]

ngl this is the first time I ever thought eating scorpion sounds pretty good

[@christianlaw1992]

So people actually can grow horns. Usually when exposed to radiation. I think this is relevant considering the sci fi elements of elden ring and grrms other work.

[@torgo_]

great to see all this new lore unfolding from your channel 🙌

[@TheHonoredMadman]

I havent read even close to all of the descriptions yet so i probably got some stuff wrong or reapeated myself too much but i just have this itching need to talk about the lore of this dlc lol

[@TheHonoredMadman]

I only got the abyssal woods aftercrecording this and editing it so i was like fuck. Lol i was too busy killing all these damn dragons

[@michaeljohnston8891]

I forget which horned warrior item says this, but it says that their armor and weapons are modeled after the look of far more ancient warriors. Given we only find the bird warriors in Rauh, and the hornsent are said to have been studying the place for generations, I’d say the birds are these ancient warriors

[@TheHonoredMadman]

And ornis ashes mentions that the horned warriors consider him their ancestor. I only found his ashes this morning though so im definitely gonna talk about this in part 2

[@ramoraid]

I wonder if Marika found out what happened to the grandmother in the tree, which I think is nanaya, and then decided to punish the hornsent for that.

[@Wolf-bz6kq]

Nanaya's corpse cand be found in midra manse sorry to blow your theory

[@ramoraid]

@@Wolf-bz6kq yeah and the hornsent put everyone in that home to the blade and tortured the f out of mydra. What do you think they did to her that she holds a staff with madness?

[@Wolf-bz6kq]

@@ramoraid speaking of that staff, it's made out of a small human spine, it can be implied this was thier child's spine she turned into the staff

[@dylanstacey3514]

@@Wolf-bz6kqI think it’s implied that the spine belonged to a different person she served, who was also trying to become the lord of frenzied flame but failed.

[@thoribbin6293]

I'm interested to hear what you think of Messmer and his relationship with Marika once you get to it, honestly their story feels a lot more personal than with her other children, with all the personal blessings she made for him, his army and all (they eye sealing the serpent, the marika's blessing item description, the knights in his army having the same power as her hammer)

[@VictorIV0310]

He could possibly be her firstborn child who was born shortly after Marika left her home village and after ascending to godhood. Who his father was, we still don’t know but the fact that he has red hair and is cursed with an abyssal serpent within him lends credence to the idea that Radagon was his father, perhaps in a secret union between him and Marika. That or maybe he was of virgin birth IDK.

[@minespatch]

13:04 Hoo boy flying phantom getting 19 inches of messmer 🤣

[@youtubeletmeintoyoutube4580]

Realizing Miquella is just Jesus Christ mixed with Griffith from Berserk

[@vergil8833]

I'm full on Marikas side after hearing about what they did to the Numen.

[@knightsblight]

Ye

[@Redeagle223]

Yes, I understand now why she hates omens so much that she shunned Margott and Mhog. They remind her of Hornsent and their atrocities.

[@IvanGonzalez-eo5kj]

She literally did exactly what the hornset did with her people. But was probably even worse considering they mutilated baby omen and even left her children to rot in the sewers. There’s no way you can take her side

[@rumorcontrol7873]

The more I learn about Marika the more I realize she is just Cersei

[@AnotherSyouz]

i love granma she gives me soup and doesnt die, that is new in souls games

[@gafflord2684]

There's another clue, "Shaman flesh was said to meld easily with others", therefore since Shamans are Numen that would explain how Marika was Able to meld with Radagon.

[@FenrisWolfblood]

Not a lore related comment, but I love that at 13:18 you see some poor spirit getting wrecked in the background by Messmer.

[@TheMMObro]

Love you for the harbinger reference

[@BrokenButton]

@13:15 someone in the background is not having a good time with Messmer

[@Jai_dinn]

Watching these new lore videos make me so happy 😊

[@SSP2561]

Best Elden ring lore videos fr. Idk how ur so underrated, keep it up

[@leek5682]

Hold on! I'll be back for this video once I finish the DLC (going in with fingerprint shield and mohgs spear btw 😈)

[@TheHonoredMadman]

Mohgs spear saved me from going mad against the lamenters wweird gimmick insta kills. It made short work of em

[@terbler]

Interesting stuff. Glad to know I'm picking up the same as the community on my own. I subscribed, looking forward to more!

[@mananekq]

flames just dropped gamers

[@blackeddeath]

2:29 The curseblades were, in fact, persecuted and imprisoned by the hornsent before Messmer's crusade, but were turned into a respected fighting force during the purge. I think the Curseblade Labirith ashes explain this.

[@1siege]

Just found your channel dude keep it up. Trying to decipher all this new info is crazy

[@staomruel]

Praise the tree!