Elden Ring Lore - Midra: The Man Who Endured the Flame

How long could you endure the flame? Today we discuss Midra, Nanaya, and the Abyssal woods...
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[@mattelwood980]

You can actually ride Torrent from the end of the Inquisitor into the forest, but once he realizes what's happening and where you are he bucks you off before noping the fuck out of there

[@Grimsly3736]

@@mattelwood980 yeah that scared the shit outta me then the “the horse was to afraid to answer the call” was very eerie then seeing this games winter lanterns and getting grabbed was pretty scary too, I’m a big horror fan and fromsoft did a good job setting up the abyssal woods

[@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystem]

I find it a bit weird that he's scared despite being absolutely fine with fighting dragons and other huge, scary things. I suppose the Flame of Frenzy is something else. Edit: I found it weird. I was unaware of the flame burning spirits when I entered the area.

[@kaiknight9761]

@@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystemYea, he probably knows (or at least can tell in some way) that he’ll be revived (for example at grace, or crimson tears), but he can’t if his spirit is burned by the flame of frenzy

[@KyuubiWindscar4]

@@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystemit can completely burn him to ash, not just despawn

[@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystem]

@@KyuubiWindscar4 I know, but didn't when I first came across him being scarred. I should probably reword my comment to make that clear.

[@void.lawyer]

i like how there is obvious visual harmony between second phase Midra and Goldmask The greatsword's ash was even called Golden Crux.

[@KitsuneShapeShifter]

Brilliant

[@Daniel_Lancelin]

It's as if to say "madness and enlightenment are two sides of the same coin."

[@icetide9411]

Goldmask but he actually takes damage instead of warping away

[@notbrad4873]

It is interesting how the Lord of Flame's head looks like an eclipsed sun

[@DragonKnight90001]

@@Daniel_Lancelinagreed in a way enlightenment can in turn lead some to madness once they are told the truth

[@kellifu112]

There is a good theory on "Rememberance of the Lord of Frenzied Flame" wikia, which I prefer. Basically it tells that the Nanaya was the bringer of frenzied flame. The spinal cord she is holding is not of a Midra, but of a previous lord she served, who was too weak to become a lord, so she carried on searching for a better suitor and then stumbled upon Midra, seduced him and set him up with a contact to frenzied flame. Hornsent figured out about this and invaded the mansion, penetrating Midra and finding out he was unkillable. Midra trying to releive himself of pain wanted to remove a sword, but Nanaya told him to "Endure", hoping that the pain and suffering would drive him mad and with it him becoming the better lord of frenzied flame.

[@johannessmith1369]

Considering the nature of her actions and her hidden eyes, she might be Shabriri in another vessel.

[@ObsessionWithEyes]

​@@johannessmith1369I totally buy it tbh

[@House_of_Green]

I’m wondering if they have anything to do with shaman/numen.

[@Grimsly3736]

@@johannessmith1369 dude Shabriri catfished my man Midra 😭

[@Writh811]

@@johannessmith1369 I was thinking Hyetta rather than Shabriri but heck all three could be the same thing and that thing might not even be called Shabriri lol. But since Shabriri gives us that name while in Yura's body I assume whatever Hyetta is inside Irina gave us its real name. So by that pattern who or whatever Nanaya was, if she is a chaos thing LIKE Hyetta and Shabriri, her name is Nanaya. Is it just me or is Chaos in Elden Ring surprisingly honest and at the same time tricks you with the truth?

[@gundyninor2450]

If Nanaya was pregnant, her child might have been the source of Nanaya's Torch. A lord was born long ago, but was too weak. A newborn baby afflicted by Frenzy would likely not make it far in life, and would have a 'small spinal column', just like the item description states. That would also explain why Nanaya holds this torch, despite its frenzied light: it's all that is left of her child

[@sned_dunes]

They might have been experimenting with their child, in the hopes of turning the kid into a Lord (of frenzy) for some reason. Experimenting on their own baby was probably what called for such severe punishment.

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

@@sned_dunes That punishment was meted out by the Hornsent, and as we've seen elsewhere they're not exactly a gentle people. I doubt they cared about the child, but moreso the danger of the Flame of Frenzy arising.

[@lz9275]

​@ArawnOfAnnwn what they did to the shamans you can bet they would care less about children not their own

[@fine_ol_chap]

That's a pretty big spinal column for a child.

[@silverreaps6803]

its too big to be a baby's spine

[@sdogg]

Midra's introduction is so damn cool

[@PR1ME98]

The depths of your FOOLISHNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Pounces on you with killing intent)

[@Incarnation_of_order]

THE DEPTHS OF YOUR FOOLISHNESS THE DEPTHS OF YOUR FOOLISHNESS THE DEPTHS OF YOUR FOOLISHNESS THE DEPTHS OF YOUR FOO- AAAAAAUUUURGGHHHHH

[@LawfulBased]

After seeing this video I conclude: In their own rage towards Messmer and the Erdtree invaders from the outside, at least a faction of the Hornsent decided to try and defeat Messmer by using the Frenzied Flame. A fair idea even if a mad one in all its irony. A Lord of the flame of Madness can surely overcome another, merely destructive flame like that of Messmer. Midra was also fairly powerful. He would have most probably won against Messmer and forced him to use the abyssal snake. If that snake could have overcome the frenzied flame, we cannot know. Do the Hornsent know the Frenzied Flame wants to burn down all of creation, including their own lands and very beings? The ones who understood might not even have cared. *_" Better no one wins than that only our enemys win over us. "_*

[@emperorpalpatine373]

​@@LawfulBasedThe Hornsent Inquisitors went to the Manse to stop Midra as they found out he was studying the Frenzied Flame and everyone pretty much knows that it is something to be left well alone as it can end everything. Messmer has nothing to do with the area.

[@LawfulBased]

@@emperorpalpatine373 Messmer is an occupation & humiliation force in their lands the entire time. And while we can speculate if the Hornsent really wanted to use Midra or just contain him forever, I know that true hatred never gives up on vengeance. Just like with Hamas and Palestine. They knew they couldn't win against Israel. But they decided for an attack anyway. Their hatred was stronger than whatever reason was still left in them and the possibility of retaliation against their fellow Palestinian people. But oh look, they attacked anyway. I am sure at least some of the Hornsent hoped he would become a Lord of Frenzy so powerful he would kill Messmer. And if he melts down the entire Shadowrealm as a "sideffects" then so be it. Better than to suffer this smug, emo demigod for how many centurys longer. Pretty sure this is what many of them had going through their minds.

[@Azg4l0R1]

One point i disagree on that makes this even more tragic, the torch says a spinal column, not a piece of one, and it shows the tailbone aswell, then used the word "cradled" that is mostly used for babies, and "what remains of him" can be his child.

[@square-table-gaming]

I thinkthats absolutely a valid interpretation

[@caninecurry5823]

It would explain why its so small aswell. Their baby lived a short life.

[@yetanotherbassdude]

This feels like the right answer to me. Perhaps Midra being contaminated by the Frenzied Flame somehow led to the death of his and Nanaya's child? This would also explain the line about how her final command to Midra to "Endure" was a curse. She cursed him to endure that terrible pain for all time because his studies had caused the death of their child, and that's why at the last it is Nanaya that he entreats, saying he has endured enough and asking her forgiveness. He's not asking for her forgiveness for becoming the Lord of Frenzied Flame, he's asking forgiveness for killing their child before the last trace of who he was is destroyed in the Flame.

[@lvx969]

@@square-table-gaming She's also pregnant in the painting.

[@patrickrueff1619]

The part that makes that not make sense is that it’s the spine of a man who failed to become the lord of frenzy. So through this thought process you’re saying that an infant failed to become the lord of frenzy.

[@TheLordofChampions]

For a guy with "mid" in his name, Midra is pretty dope boss, with the best theme music imo.

[@GuildmasterMuri]

what scares me the most is the fact that this is what an entire section of the world looks like when affected by a weak, shrivled up , tortured and essentially sealed, lord of the frenzied flame. In the actual ending we see the erdtree burning and Leindel slowly melting but we dont get a grasp on how dire the situation truly is, but in here, the entire place is dead, the only living things are grazing animals that the flame has taken over and simply decided to not instantly kill. Plants are dried or corrupted by the flame to alert the Old ones for intruders, the trees are lifeless and frail, there is NOTHING there but the inquisitors trying to damage controll that mess... Truly the lord of frenzied flame ending is a horror os its own kind...

[@TheHandofDestiny]

MAY CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD

[@Exile_Sky]

That's entirely the point. To melt away the hopelessly broken and corrupted world that it might begin anew. Ironically it is the position of those who claim allowing The Flame to die in Darksouls is the correct path to take (albeit with far less to suggest the world is actually beyond saving instead of purposely being undermined). A big reset button on creation is a valid response to a lot of Elden Ring's world building.

[@kodymcbride6901]

​@Exile_Sky Only issue is the Flame of Frenzy isn't a reset button, it's the off switch.

[@zp34k]

@@Exile_Sky

[@Kacper-jw3bv]

​@@Exile_Sky no this isnt a reset its the off button the flame doesnt go off the world doesnt get a second chance it just all end there and forever its the morally worst ending this isnt a new cycle its the end of the land forever

[@whoisj]

"Messmer and the horrific atrocities against the Hornsent". More like the "justice he brought to the Hornsent".

[@square-table-gaming]

It's all a matter of perspective but yeah. Atrocities if you're a hornsent, justice if you're a shaman

[@IAm.Messmer.Brother.Of.Malenia]

🗣

[@michaelblevins1651]

@@square-table-gamingI think it’s fair to say both parties are wrong for what they did be it the hornsent inquisitry or the Army of messmer realistically all marika needed to do was kill those directly responsible not genocide a whole Race

[@ALaz502]

Horrific violence in response to violence is still horrific violence

[@square-table-gaming]

@@michaelblevins1651 they basically went genocide for genocide. Neither party needed to do that. Whether or not they're equally guilty is again, a matter of perspective. The only shaman we ever meet are the ones turned into jar monstrosities, unless you believe the black knives, being Numen, are also shaman. We meet plenty of hornsent warriors.

[@salvahazana7629]

I like to view the spear that pierced Midras body as another version of Miquellas Needle. An iteam of unalloyed gold that must pierce the victim to suppress the flame of frenzy.

[@thboywndr4495]

it was definitely placed there to quell the flame from manifesting. super interesting lore.

[@TheDinis553]

This makes the most sense to me too. Him studying the flame, while the Hornsent were his ''staff'' and insurance in case anything went wrong. Something did go wrong, and he inherited the flame. The Hornsent then proceeded, likely at Nanaya's request (since we see Midra apologizing to her for pulling the spear out), to impale him with the spear to prevent the Frenzied Flame from spreading. Then the player finds him and finally puts him out of his perpetual agony.

[@thelurkerbel0w]

That would explain why it doesn't cause madness and has faith scaling

[@BFG93]

When goat starts giving madness by just speaking. Yknow the place is messed up.

[@leonardyambao2578]

When a goat starts speaking to you, you're likely already mad.

[@kjstyles2xtreme]

within the manse there's a painting of the building with flowers around showing that at some point in the manses history the area of the woods once flourished

[@ramoraid]

The flowers shown look to similar to the ones shown in the hinter lands to be a coincidence .

[@592Johno]

Yesss🥹

[@fishwoman7825]

It suggests that but it doesn't precisely mean it, paintings are suggestive so it might not be a real painting of flowers around the mansion but an idealised version of it

[@ramoraid]

@@kjstyles2xtreme I went back to this area and looked at the church, the altar in that church became the pedestal Marika statues stand on top off. Marika has ties to both nanaya and midra in some way.

[@masterofnothing4938]

I think my favorite part of the dungeon is seeing the invisible wall painting of the manse pre frenzied flame, and then realizing the only way to progress is to destroy the one piece of the places good history left.

[@lukebarroso449]

I am in his neck of the woods now. Really gave me chills when it said that Torrent was frightened. Also my first thought was when seeing the Lord of Frenzied Flame was, "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!"

[@tevinstrachan1421]

Look here, I was riding Torrent, and then bam, damage sound. I was like, what hit me. Start looking around nothing. Walked further, then tried again. Torrent is afraid...damn no Maiden and now no Steed.

[@LifeCompanionDogs8083]

MAY CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD!!!!!

[@lukebarroso449]

@@tevinstrachan1421 bro same! I had the exact same thought. What hit me? Torrent is scared and now I'm scared 😅

[@Daniel_Lancelin]

The phrase "there can be only one" takes on a whole new meaning in the context of the Frenzied Flame's philosophy; through the power of pure destruction, ALL will be returned to ONE unified existence. This means that canonically, two concurrent Lords of Frenzied Flame's first instinct _would_ probably be to kill each other and subsume the other's soul, so that the more fitting Lord can better bring about their god's prophecied chaos. It is an inherently self-devouring ideology.

[@WeAreTheReapers]

@@Daniel_Lancelinthere is no soul to recover. Frenzied Flame kills all soul and body alike

[@adawg3032]

Idk about the lore but the sign i read on the ground when the scream was triggered read "Edge ahead therefore likely out of stamina"

[@aloyek1484]

oh i saw the same one

[@mcsquared5005]

I wonder if Midra is the same sage who invented Golems. The medal that clasps Midra's robe at the front is the same symbol as the Graveyard Guardian Watchdog's Hammer. Maybe when/if he made the fire golems for Merika or Mesmer the Hornsent punished him

[@Finnsta]

good call out, I noticed that design on the clasp as well just didn’t put 2 and 2 together

[@patrickrueff1619]

Here’s my take(s), Nanaya was a finger maiden for the 3 fingers. After the previous person she served was too weak to become lord failed, she took his spine because connected to the neck was the ember of frenzy. I say this cause the torch describes “in a distant land, in an age long past” meaning that this was away from the land of shadow long before current events. “All that remains of him” meaning that the rest of his is gone, destroyed, either by the flame or whoever felled him. She traveled to the lands between, possible before the shadowlands were hidden and the horn sent purged. She sought out the sage Midra because of his vast collection of knowledge and thought him to be suitable as the next lord of frenzy. So she seduced him, and slowly exposed him to the idea of the frenzied flame, because he’s a sage, he was most likely interested in the research. If the diary page is Midras, then the land became twisted by it and he encountered an aged untouchable during his research. Personally I think that the diary belongs to an inquisitor that was sent to the manse. I say this cause it doesn’t tell us who wrote it, and it was a diary page and not some kind of research document. But back to before, as he researched the frenzied flame, the land began to twist and contort, leading to the corruption of the land and the arrival of the aged untouchables. This caught the attention of the horn sent, who dispatched the inquisitors to put a stop to it. They raided the manse, tortured and killed the horn sent servants who were there, either because they went mad, were infatuated with the flame of frenzy, or just by association with Midra. They then punished Midra with the great sword of damnation, instead of only causing excruciating pain, it kept him alive, thus being an eternal damnation (how else could he survive it being thrust through his head). It’s unclear what Nanayas punishment was if she was at all, but she told him to endure for one of two reasons. The suffering would drive him mad and make him a stronger lord, or that he wasn’t ready to become the lord yet and he had to wait till the time was right. I think Midra either knew and desired to become lord because of his research or didn’t want to because of what it entailed. So him warning you to stay away was either a “go away Im not ready to become lord yet” or “get away I can’t have you unleashing the lord of frenzy upon the land”. It’s obvious that Nanaya was pregnant, and I think the son was none other than shabriri himself. Not only would this timeline track, shabriri is born, leaves the shadowlands before it disappears, grows up to see the rise of erdtree order and wishes to bring chaos to the world (He may have also escaped during the raid on the manse). But it explains why shabriri has strangely paranormal abilities despite only being described as a normal guy, he was born of the lord and lady of the frenzied flame.

[@benchambers1439]

The story of midra arriving to study the frenzied flame, meeting nanaya, growing to be understood by the hornet servants and ultimately being tormented in his mansion would make for such an awesome drama

[@dune3001]

Midra is the latest addition to From's referencing The King in Yellow, along side the Monk from Demon's Souls and Xanthous from Dark Souls. Of all of them, i think Midra fits the reference best, as the book has themes of cosmic horror and madness.

[@HarleyAppropriate]

I love their references to the king in yellow. Good catch!

[@youshau3226]

exactly what i was thinking when i saw the cutscene. midra and his visual design also seriously reminds me of the king inyellow from true detective s1

[@dylanconstantine9947]

Another note with the Xanthous king is that he uses pyromancies, and (possibly) has a parasite in his head that his wrap conceals. Midra uses frenzy flame and is plagued by the madness in his head, eventually removing it entirely and the 'parasite' of the frenzied flame replaces it.

[@AJKecsk]

@@dylanconstantine9947 One small but very relevant correction - Xanthous King Jeremiah doesn't use pyromancies, he uses exclusively _chaos_ pyromancies. "May Chaos Take The World!"

[@JustinY.]

Dude literally has the backstory of Fire Punch and I'm all here for it

[@foreignhambubger7181]

"Become Frenzied Punch" 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥✍️

[@vittxrio5198]

Ayoo it's Justin Y

[@N1GHTSTRIKER-45]

The King Has Finally Returned....

[@simplywhat883]

Glad you fw Fire Punch justin

[@alessandroferraro1220]

I was looking for a Fire Punch reference and a Justin Y. comment. Definitely didn’t expect both at once! What a great manga.

[@dars1961]

Hyetta is also acting "benevolently", the way one becomes truly consumed by the Frenzy, likely a prerequisite to become a lord, is to be overcome by suffering. Nanaya might well have wanted him to suffer beyond his limit, and truly believed it was a good thing, since once overcome by the flame, all suffering ends. Also, Nanayas torch is most likely the babies spine.

[@Brown95P]

Nah, that spine is way too tall for a baby; it's much more likely it's the spine of the failed "feeble lord of frenzy" Nanaya was with before she moved on to Midra.

[@ilejovcevski79]

This is my hypothesis as well. I got the impression Nanaya seduced him to the Frenzied flame, and as such she loved him, truly loved him for it, in a way that only madness can love. To the very end.

[@DragonDonut64]

@@Brown95PToo tall for a newborn, yes. The baby could’ve grown a bit. Your theory is also possible.

[@_SUPERN0VA_]

​@@Brown95P and adult spine the size of a baby??? The spine is complete it even has a tailbone

[@opheliacofficial]

The choice of the word “curse” in the remembrance description really gives perspective. It adds the fact that no matter how good we may think nanaya’s intentions were, there was malevolence there not a mercy

[@square-table-gaming]

I don't think calling it a curse implies malevolence on Nanaya's part at all. If she wanted him to endure in order to keep the world safe from the flame, that would still be a curse to Midra as he has to keep it at bay.

[@AndyMacster]

The most fascinating idea is that of Nanaya being a vessel for Shabriri, who'd use any strategy to influence madness upon someone, especially those with heart and soul who may be naive enough to let madness walk in through the front door.

[@square-table-gaming]

I don't believe this for a few reasons but the big one is that we find her dead and not burned. If she was a finger maiden of the 3 fingers in a land without death shed likely still be alive or have been burned up like hyetta.

[@myb701]

Shabriri pulling out a Kenjaku and taking backshots for the plan. That's my headcanon now.

[@elgus3802]

I can't help but flinch physically hearing Midra tear his own head off, I've heard worse things but god damn there's something on the voice acting and the sound effects that just gets to me

[@dethkruzer]

Only in a soulsborne game could a man survive being impaled by an upside down Christmas tree sword through his head, neck, and torso. While possibly also not having a spine.

[@NanashiAkai]

About the pregnancy, I have heard one theory that the small spinal column that makes up the torch, might be.....well....the child's spine... this got dark😢

[@flangboot]

I really wish that there would have been some sort of unique interaction by having been embraced by the three fingers before encountering Midra

[@BasedOttoHightower]

The imagery of him pulling that sword out of his head is metal AF! 😂 this stood out the most to me when the trailer came out. Haven’t made it to him yet but I do t care about spoilers. I love the lore of from games.

[@sweeddreams9221]

The whole segment of the game is awesome and my favorite atmospheric place in ER.

[@swj_69420]

you should care . You literally destroyed yourself from experiencing and finding abyssal woods on your own .

[@TacticalReaper56]

Same. This whole game is a bigole circle jerk for Miyazaki best Bosses from all his titles. Which isnt a bad thing. Reminds me of Monster Hunter Iceborne. Where that dlc was more or less crafted for the hardcore players.

[@GabeJohnson91]

One thing that I found really interesting is that during his phase 2 theme, there's a small violin part that plays the melody the frenzied merchants buried under Leyndell play when you're down there. I thought that was a really cool callback.

[@adalvarthepeaceful]

I think it's easy to assume that the spine that makes the torch is that of Nanaya's child.

[@-TriP-]

Miyazaki was like "hey, remember how everyone hated the Winter Lanterns? Well f*** you buddy!

[@MortalReaver]

I think Nanaya manipulated Midra, by making him fall in love with her. She then pushed him to become Lord of Frenzied Flame, and becoming pregnant and their child dying was part of Nanaya's plan to inflict suffering on Midra (she probably insunuated he was responsible). Nanaya's "Endure" also is there to make sure Midra suffers as long as possible, to increase chances of him becoming a Lord. Midra probably thinks even until his death, that Nanaya's "Endure" is for him to not fall to Frenzied Flame.

[@IAm.Messmer.Brother.Of.Malenia]

i could watch a movie just about midra's descent into madness

[@HarleyAppropriate]

Also this place makes me think of nuclear disaster, the way the animals all have madness yet are acting normal when you would assume they wouldn’t be able to survive. Kind of like the animals around Chernobyl.

[@DrakeWarriorIgon]

NOW DO ONE ABOUT BAYLE! CURSE YOU, BAYLE!!

[@square-table-gaming]

Check out the latest poll! He's on the list ;)

[@DrakeWarriorIgon]

𐃆𐃆𐃆𐃆𐃆𐃆𐃆𐃆𐃆𐃆𐃆

[@thecauldron2212]

WITH A FLAIL OF HARPOOOONS!!​@@DrakeWarriorIgon

[@heyguysjohnnyhere3827]

I think it would be a cool idea to make a video analyzing the meta meaning of all the different types of Fire in Elden Ring (Giantsflame, Ghostflame, Black Flame, Bloodflame, Golden Fire, the fire of Wraithcallers, Frenzied Flame, Messmer Fire, etc.) and the meaning of Fire in the Lands Between

[@global-sequence]

I really like your assessment of the story between Midra and Nanaya. It paints a pretty complete picture. The one thing that nags at me that I have trouble with is her Mona Lisa smile. The very slight hint of knowing something that the viewer does not.

[@dgalloway107]

God St. Trina's soundtrack is so good. I actually thought to myself that you'd likely be using it in lore videos and i'm so glad I was right. I called it as right up your alley.

[@square-table-gaming]

I loved it and wanted to use it immediately. I've gotten a lot of comments wanting me to switch back to the old character creator track. I'm still on the fence.

[@NateHiggers_17]

@@square-table-gaming perhaps change between the two between different videos since both tracks are good

[@ryansmiffey96]

dude the otherworldly roar of the frenzied flame when he transforms is peak sound design

[@the_hooded_one08]

God the ghastly choir kicking in once the flame head forms over Midra neck in the cutscene is fckn terrifying but awesome

[@chrisharris5658]

I'm starting to suspect that the "original sin" of Marika is not her desolation of the hornsent but actually that her shaman parents were so heavily involved with the Three Fingers. I think that explains why the Three Fingers have been relocated and sealed away within the depths of Leyndell. I think the taint of the Three Fingers upon Marika accounts for the presence of flame and kindling within Messmer and Melina.

[@geordiejones5618]

Now that is a cool take that I haven't seen before. Is Marika keeping the Three Fingers basically as a last resort against the Greater Will?

[@savevsdeath]

​@@geordiejones5618that sounds exactly like something a pragmatic but also amoral political and religious leader would do.

[@flounks]

this sounds like a cool theory. it can explain the flame curse theme in her 2 kids and would line up with the Finger Ruins being close to her Shaman village (which could also explain why her Golden Order is heavily influenced by fingers). But I know a few people try to say the Three Fingers are different to the Two Fingers, because Metyrs remembrance says "Mother of all *Two Fingers*". However, the Fingerprint Stone Shield mentions "Part of the tomb of an ancient god, the Readerless Fingers relayed their message through these imprints, said to be the very seeds from which frenzy first sprouted." The pattern on the stone itself looks extremely similar to the large stones that you find lines up in the Finger Ruins. So the Three Fingies are certainly related to them & the ruins. Perhaps they are a deformed version, or perhaps they have been cursed since birth themself, similar to Marikas own children.

[@cyberninjazero5659]

Cool theory, but Miyazaki was clear that the Shadow Realm was where Marika first set foot in the Lands Between, meaning she was already born. I think she came on the coffin ships with the rest of her people, so she can't be Nanaya's baby

[@ORLY911]

@@cyberninjazero5659 so she wasnt raised in Shamen Village?

[@blacksunserpent]

Okay, so, the story goes this way. Long ago Nanaya had a baby that was touched from birth by Flame of Frenzy. She was blind and could not succumb to it's effect, but Midra and all around were not immune. Her child died and left mark on lands with frenzied flame, then inquisitors showed up to try seal it but efforts were not that productive, but they tortured and killed everyone who beared mark of frenzy in them, lastly it was Midra. But Nanaya asked him to not succumb to Frenzied flame, asked him to Endure it for eternity even when he already was impaled. And he did, for who knows how long. Child corpse already turned to dust bearing only remnants of frenzy, Nanaya herself died, but he endured, the suffering of madness, the pain of torment being impaled, then the world "endure" turned for him in a curse. He tried to contain flame for so long it even considered him to be worthy of being a lord. And then we came. He tried to warn us, tried to stop. Even retaliated in his rotting half mad state. But he had enough, and excepted the flame and it's embrace. But he confonted the other beign worthy to be a lord, that is why he failed.

[@vivechjorviani5440]

Right and the child was somehow touched by the fingers before birth as seen by their presence on the fingerprint grape

[@Kokosnuss]

And another thing that comes to mind with the midra boss fight... man I love fromsoft but sometimes they miss the greatest oportunities regarding dialogue and possible outcomes. Midra should be able to recognize a player touched by the three finger ergo the frenzied flame. Which could give him a much deeper reason to confront us and as a last effort go nuke on us as he would regocnize us as the bigger threat them himself.

[@adalvarthepeaceful]

Also with this take on the flame, the parallels between Elden Ring and The King In Yellow grow tighter still

[@ramoraid]

The Church ruins hold some clues to as to the fact that what we see here happen long before Marika even gained any power. The altar in the church has very interesting iconography.

[@Gensolink]

it's a bit unrelated but something interesting I've noticed while playing is that the woods looked to be more lush like a grove, you can see this in the first painting. And now it's a dead forest plagued by madness almost like it got completely sapped of almost all its life

[@yassinefarah2423]

The Frenzied Flames ability to kill both the body and soul pretty much explains and justifies Melina's warning and her encouraging us not to lose hope in life no matter how dark for a power that is the embodiment of horror and oblivion.

[@sk8legendz]

the aesthetic setting of the abyssal woods was very well done. I was sneaking around nervous as to what *it* was and what happens if *it sees me*

[@fine_ol_chap]

**Midra turning into a lord of frenzied flame** Tarnished: This world ain't big enough for two frenzied flame lords...

[@disinterestedhomo6002]

It makes sense to me that the three fingers were in the abyssal woods. We can see the burn marks they left on the walls around the forest still smouldering and glowing with the flame of frenzy

[@taywhit2593]

I think the child is the torch. They call it a small spinal column, not a part of a spinal column, and while his back is gnarled, Midra seems (at least to me) to still have a spine. I also remember a lot of people pointing out that in the painting of Midra, Nanaya has a hand over her womb. Not sure this is definitive proof she was pregnant, but it’s my head canon. Also, did you know the Hornsent Inquisitors of the Abyssal Woods use Frenzied Flame Incantations?! Looks like they might have become corrupted themselves. It’s very specifically frenzied burst, which might mean these guys may have honed their control since arriving at the Woods.

[@HarleyAppropriate]

Just like how those who were sent to guard the crucible flame use fire incantations from the fell god.

[@taywhit2593]

@@HarleyAppropriate Ooo, that’s a good point. I wonder how the Hornsent felt about the giant’s flame. They seem to at least tolerate the blood fiends and the Rot Kin.

[@alyandthecats]

I can't get over how much "Endure" sounds like Gideon's description of Marika's wishes for the tarnished and how she seems to have sent Godfrey off to find new struggles to regain his Lord status. Combined with the Hinterland flowers in the painting and the pursuit of a Lord, it makes me wonder if maybe Nanaya was a sister or cousin to Marika. The torch and her dark hair under the golden tassels makes me think she probably had a son, not a daughter, and likely wouldn't be Marika's mother. Maybe seeing her corruption and ability to draw the influence of a cosmic entity is what made the hornsent start targeting the Shamans in earnest. Or maybe this was Nanaya's response to the same desperation that drove Marika, just turned toward Three Fingers instead of Two.

[@zanzaraloggan3713]

from what I understood about Nanaya, she is the harbinger of the King in Yellow, just as the wizard from Latria (Demon Souls) who brought curse (in Nanaya's case, she brought the flame of frenzy) to the manse, and tried to turn Midra into a Lord of Frenzied Flame

[@Kokosnuss]

The greatsword of damnation gives us one more important lore implication. Considering the shape and the similarities with weapons that represent the golden order such as the Sacred Relic Sword (from the Elden Beast) with the spiraling of its edges one can assume that the hornsent were influnced by perhaps the same cosmic entity that ever so wishes for a new order. We also know that the hornsent looove spirals. My asumption would be that the golden order and the order of the crucible were governed by the same or at the very least similiar influence. I also want to add the golden order is a direct counterpart to the frenzied flame and it therefore makes sense to impale Midra with a weapon of the golden order.

[@benjaminotalora363]

One thing I just can't get over is how much the crux looks like the big ribcage looking part of the elden ring on the title screen. Literally the one item I've seen in the whole game that comes even close to that shape

[@therat1117]

From the minor erdtree spell we know that big-g Gold is something that isn't inherently tied to the Golden Order, rather it seems to be something that emanates from the primordial crucible, as the hornsent also use golden spells all the time whilst worshipping the crucible rather than the Golden Order. Marika seems to have usurped Gold in order to create the order, from its original place in the crucible (which is where she put the Erdtree to create the Golden Order). Therefore what impaled Midra, which also looks like the branches inquisitors carry, seems to be Gold made by the hornsent, rather than something that is from the Golden Order specifically.

[@alfalldoot6715]

Well yeah, the Crucible is the Primordial erdtree and as such was probably made by the Greater Will.

[@vaal5534]

I dont think the three fingers was moved, we have seen before that there are multiple two fingers so the idea of there being multiple three fingers is not out of the question. Also im pretty sure its stated that the reason there is a three fingers underneath leyndell is because marika rounded up the traveling merchants and locked them down there, and as a response they all invoked a curse which summoned a three fingers there, which is further supported by certain traveling merchants using frenzy flame when you aggro them

[@djafuno]

Midra is such an interesting character and has the best song of the DLC imo

[@Etticos.]

Midra’s song goes way too hard that it distracted me the first time I faced him and it cost me the fight. I am a sucker for a leitmotif, so in phase two when Midra’s music references the Nomadic Merchant’s “Song of Despair”, but twisted and shrieking, I was hype as fuck.

[@shaonakolte]

I believe there is enough evidence to suggest Nanaya was the bringer of frenzied flame (her eyes being covered etc.) and the Torch was the remnant frenzied flame from the previous lord who failed (Distand land, age long past). She found midra as the next best suitor to become the lord of frenzied flame and introduced it to him. This caused the abyssal woods to become abyssal. At some point they genuinely fell in love with each other and Nanaya got pregnant. Now its very important to understand that to become the lord of frenzied flame you have to die - kill yourself/die in the name of Frenzied flame - that is exactly what we do in Base game - burn ourselves at flame peak. This sacrifice guarantees the ascension. Midra might have been ready to do so until they both had a change of heart (given they fell in love and got pregnant) as it would have killed everything in the world including their baby. BUT by that time it was too late, The hornsent were on their tail for the "attempt" at becoming the lord of frenzied flame. The hornsent killed everyone including Nanaya and Stabbed midra with the greatsword of damnation (which I think is nothing special and just like the barbed staff-spear we get from Jori). Midra if he had died there would have unleashed the frenzied flame and destroyed the world because he was already primed to do so. Nanaya in her dying breath says "endure" to prevent this from happening (she no longer wants the world to burn). The reason I think this is how it went is because Midra in the cutscene says "I have endured enough" and asks for Nanaya's forgiveness before killing himself (which leads to him becoming the lord of frenzied flame). The Apology suggests that by the very end Nanaya did not want him to become the LOFF (Lord of Frenzied Flame) and burn the world down neither did Midra because he keeps asking us to stay away and when we finally face him he says "the depths of your foolishness" i.e. we would be foolish to kill him as it would unleash the LOFF. we still beat the shit out of him and then he has had enough. He knows we are ready to fight and he then proceeds to do/say whats in the cutscene.

[@gnocchithepotato7921]

Midra probably settled in what would become the abyssal woods before it was afflicted by frenzied flame since in the entrance hall we see a painting of the manse in a lush green opening, unlike what we see in the modern day

[@square-table-gaming]

Just because he was the lord of the manse does not mean he was the first Lord of the manse. It's entirely possible that portrait is from before his time.

[@palemoogle3049]

"Try parrying" Most helpful message I've read

[@bronzethunderbeard1572]

My favorite part of the DLC, the woods were so spooky. When Torrent didnt come I was like “I’m in danger!”. For some reason did not expect him to turn into the Lord of Frenzied Flame, was such a badass moment.

[@ExpletoryPenguin]

My crazy theory is that the child of Midra and Nanaya is actually Goldmask. It's all based on coincidental aesthetic similarities though, nothing concrete

[@dthewarlock9809]

I believe the spine of the torch to actually be all that remains of their unborn child, and that flame was Nanayas wish for him to carry the flame of Frenzy.

[@AlmightyKevo]

I love how the heavy FF areas are so hidden from any main path, and so much of a headache after finding it as if the game’s trying to warn you to stay away.

[@Sentho]

The torch of Nanaya feels more compelling as her child than it being the spine of Midra

[@johnchen997]

Been waiting for this one. Thank you.

[@dannyleo5787]

What I love about this tie in with the frenzy flame when I got here and seen. It all reminds me of the king in yellow stories. Midra and nanaya, are mirror reflections of the researchers in the tale, “ repairer of reputation “ meaning they unknowingly were drawn to it. Yet when it is seen… The greatest of madness can only take the minds of the brilliant, the artful, ablaze in uncontrollable ambitions that make for kindle. Reason why the king in yellow wouldn’t remove his palled masks is with interpretation, something that should not exist at all, for perceiving it breaks many a sane mind.

[@ileiad]

"Dearest Zanzibart... forgive me." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

[@bronowiczj]

Looking forward to your video on the Lamenter in the future. And it’s crazy how far off we were about this character after watch in the trailers. Well done

[@NedalYT]

I was searching for a lore dive on this guy, today it got recommended. Goated video

[@MossOwnsYouYT]

I can't remember which right now, but there's an item that mentioned that there was madness in the roots of the golden lineage. That's likely where one of the familial connections come from. There's also an old portair ot the manse before the flame swept through, and the floral fields like those at the shaman village are seen.

[@square-table-gaming]

It's not an item actually, it's Ymir who says this, and while we should consider it, he's not the most reliable source of information as he is trying to manipulate us from the get go

[@dannycantu8351]

It is intriguing to note that the boss room where the battle with Midra takes place features hay that leaves behind red fingerprints. These fingerprints serve as a unique method of communication employed by the Three Fingers.

[@SaladDongs]

The manse is one of my favorite areas in the DLC, because it feels just so personal to me. I'd had a very long bout of depression and a lot of that was a deep unsatisfaction with the world and existential dread. For years I flirted with the idea of suicidality and even attempted, but I was too weak to go through. I had abandoned good friends but was still trying to endure the suffering I was in for the ones that cared for me. It got me to a point where I had started to resent them specifically for caring about me because I did not want to endure living. Very similarly, Midra seems to be someone who's "peered too deep" into the way of the world and became afflicted with frenzy because of it, was coaxed into enduring the pain no matter how bad it got, and this ask from Nanaya turned into a curse from Midra's perspective, who was too weak and unable to help himself not only because he had a huge sword in his body but because this sword, this object of torture paradoxically became a part of him. When he pulls out the sword, he loses his head, he no longer has his identity. His sword is part of his identity, and the act of pulling it out is giving in, or giving up. Fortunately, in reality there is a, very hard and seemingly invisible way out of that, and this is reflected by bearing the burn marks but rejecting the flame of frenzy, which is equally hard to do in game. But the story of Midra is a profoundly sad one, an understandable one, to me; and the story of Nanaya a more complex blur between selfish interest, but also love and hope. I don't think she cursed him intentionally, but it was his overbearing duty to endure all suffering that nonetheless put Midra through much more pain and a much more fiery, explosive ending to his story as his endurance spawned so much hopelessness and resentment that the whole area was plunged into a metaphorical abyss

[@partywalrus6439]

The small spinal column might be the child, as it is to long to be just midras neck. To many vertebrae for it (the neck has 7 vertebrae). Also at the lower end of the small staff you can see some sort of sacrum (which connects the spine to the pelvis area). This might actually be their baby, but I'm really not sure.

[@ilejovcevski79]

This was one of my favorites, if not THE FAVORITE location and story line (of not short) in the entire DLC, and i've cleared everything except for kindling the seal.

[@joshuapatrick682]

I think she was a maiden of the three fingers, the most obvious reason is that her eyes are covered and there is nothing that says maidens of the Three Fingers are necessarily cruel.

[@uddaloknag1751]

Even before I found the Abyssal woods, the concept of having a catacomb with its back open seemed very eerie to me. Felt like a bad omen. Finding Abyssal woods after that was one of my favourite game moments.

[@Random_idiot3]

Number#1 way to become the lord of frenzy flame. Get fiddled by fingers

[@briannenurse4640]

I appreciate your take on Nanaya.

[@someguy-et6pd]

The "small" spinal column in nanayas torch is probably whats left of her child

[@a_angry_bunny]

If Marika was Nanaya's child, it would be a better explanation of why the hornsent massacred the Shamen, which led to the cycle of revenge.

[@icetide9411]

What I find particularly crazy about the Abyssal Woods is that they aren't even being affected by a complete Lord of Frenzy. Midra has just been on the brink for seemingly ages, and yet that was even enough for the flame to spread and fester so much. Especially if we instead go by the theory that Nanaya was actually a Shabriri vessel, that means this place was probably normal before Midra was afflicted

[@alfalldoot6715]

We see in one of the paintings that Midra's Manse actually used to be a bright and colorful place.

[@aspectparadox6654]

Since the swollen eyes touched by the Three Fingers are dropped directly from untouchables I think those are direct servants of the Three Fingers. Given the ten decapitated corpses impaled with golden needles in front of the manse, one for each of the ten untouchables in the forest, it’s likely they were mortal once

[@saulitix]

I think that Nanaya's torch is her child, all that's left of Midra, his kid (that's why the description says that it is small). I also think that Midra's objective was religious, as the flame burns away every sin, and a Manse is a house given by the Christian Church to a minister if the church. He believed the flame was the way to reach redemption, but that also mean burning spirits as they will still carry sin and guilt.

[@bob11664]

Awesome video. Thanks for the narration and description. You have an awesome tone for this

[@MichaelTheRead]

Supposing Nanaya was pregnant, perhaps her child was Vyke? We have no idea how long the manse has been in its current state.

[@justsomeone883]

There is actually a theory that Nanaya was pregnant with Marika,something about Count Ymir mentioning a "cursed bloodline"

[@wildtime845]

I don’t really think a vessel of madness would be the mother of marika that would end up being chosen by the outer gods of the golden order to become a vessel herself

[@justsomeone883]

@@wildtime845 ehhh,fair enough

[@wildtime845]

@@justsomeone883besides she’s basically confirmed to have been born in the shaman village so it’s anyone related to that

[@justsomeone883]

@@wildtime845 the thing is,ve'we only heard of her grandmother,not her perents

[@alexandermorgan5958]

I know you're on a roll discussing the major players of the DLC right now, but I would like to ask you to look into something much less important to the story that has been bugging me since I found it. What is the fly disease? Why were the caretakers spared from it? Where did it come from? Was it deliberately created, or something natural? The fact that fly mold was freely sold makes me think this was either a very old or very prominent disease, but I can't make heads or tails of it. Do you have anything deeper to share about it?

[@square-table-gaming]

Not as of yet but that was something I found curious as well

[@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystem]

My guess is that it is actually a curse, likely from Marika or someone related to her, to punish the Hornsent's brutality. I came to this due to the sheer level of pain that the disease is described as causing on its victims and the fact that those who showed care and kindness were spared for no obvious reason.

[@TheSuperRatt]

@@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystem Considering the level of brutality of Marika's crusade, I doubt she'd care to spare kind Hornsent caretakers of any pain.

[@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystem]

@@TheSuperRatt True.

[@BeccaTKawaii]

The Abyssal woods had so much potential to be somewhere where PvP actually had some RP weight.

[@GILvidss]

Torrent is scared because the frenzied flame can truly kill him. He's tanking everything and being revived by flasks. On Lord of Frenzied Flame ending you can see torrents ring turn to ash.

[@malbhet]

Narayan and Midra's child could possibly be Shabriri. If you listen to Shabriri's voice when he speaks on the mountain top of the giants, his voice sounds identical to Midra. At one point, I actually thought Midra was Shabriri. Shabriri could have been born afflicted with the frenzy flame, similar to Marika's children. I honestly think Midra was a shaman/numerous, similar to Marika, and all of the outer gods possibly saw fit to corrupt and attach themselves to the Numen race as a way to enter that world given the fact that the Numen had an inate ability to easily meld with others. If you look at every demigod related to Marika, they all have shown some sort of melding to another outward influential source, Rykard being a perfect example given how he allowed himself to be eaten by a snake only to subconsciously combine with it and even take over that serpent. Godwyn is another example as his body melded with destined death to become some corpse of a lord of Death. The two fingers probably did the same to Ranni's physical body as well, which led her to have the dark knives kill her physical body to free her from becoming like Marika. You notice how this could also be the origins of grafting given what the hornsent were doing to the shamans. Grafting is one of the largest yet less spoken plot points of Elden Ring that not many lore fans talk about. Grafting in Elden Ring deserves a huge lore video of it's own, because too much of the lore revolves around how grafting is used by outer gods and the hornsent to create saints, and how many of the races are born or created from Grafting, even Marika, the fingers, Radagon, and Elden Beast imo.

[@TheTangeriner]

Torrent is a spirit, thus afraid of the frenzied flame, both because it is spirit-killing and because he is killed in the Frenzied Lord ending. Respect the horse. Our lives are just as much a fable as fables themselves; forgotten with temporal impact on only the lives we are a part of. Games are universes of memories, whether here or there or whom controls what.

[@boy_savage110]

I think the text makes it a point to mention "small" spinal column because it's the spinal column of Nanaya's child.

[@francescoluan8174]

The spinal cord is her child. She sat there cradling it with 0 will to live resulting in her death. Cradling what little was left of her child. It was Midra who caused her child to inherit the flame. Either from pressuring her son to do so, manipulating him, or failing to stop him. This causes midra to go mad knowing his daughter wanted nothing to do with him and would not move eat sleep or smile again. Choosing only to cradle what was left of her ill fated child. Then as Penance for his deeds midra was impailed by the sword told to endure the pain for an eternity for thats how long she would harbor this pain he has brought on her. It was this exact pain that held his madness in check. Keeping the flame at bay

[@blazingdrake1]

what if the child of nanaya is vyke, he does share some of the trais of takeing care of someone until the end, and would tie ind with how vyke knows of the frenzied flame

[@sweeddreams9221]

Vyke was a tarnished. I dont think tarnished existed in this period of time.

[@dontgankmebruv7273]

@@sweeddreams9221tarnished is not a race, it’s a state of being. Godfrey himself becomes tarnished and he was the elden lord once

[@ObsessionWithEyes]

​@@sweeddreams9221 it's been confirmed that messmer filed the erdtree. Meaning his endless war started after marikas ascension

[@Brandonious15987]

​@dontgankmebruv7273 Tarnished maybe both a race and a state of being. A group was kicked out of the lands between. While it makes sense to pick Godfrey, the rest had to have some kind of distinctive factor to lose their grace. Godfrey became tarnished because he was strong but also because he fulfilled his purpose at the time. Most of the tarnished are seeing the lands between for the 1st time. This means they are the children of the tarnished who got kicked out.

[@dontgankmebruv7273]

@@Brandonious15987 no the tarnished just arent a race, it is just a state of being. your player character like others died and was revived upon receiving grace once more.

[@toastedpeanuts3246]

One thing I noticed in the beginning of the Manse is the painting that is a hidden wall at the start depicts the Manse and the surrounding forest as lush and full of flowers, so that more points to the theory that the Abyssal forest was only recently corrupted

[@blazingflame5674]

If you look up the root translation of "Nanaya" it references the ancient Mesopotamian goddess of love. She was the daughter of urdesh, the king of the gods, and was worshipped in Ur.

[@metal_fusion]

I can imagine that those of us who chose the Frenzy Flame ending must be thinking: Midra is a imposter, he must be removed!

[@levampblaze6312]

Well hard to tell whether nanayas child is marika. Heres how im thinking. Theorize wise. When frenzy flame started and horsent stopped them , probably nanaya gave her child to them for saving her life from frenzy. Then the horsent accept it but they gave to shaman people coz they dont know what power she possessed once hse growing up. That is all.

[@SkuzGaming]

Turns out Nanaya was also a Mesopotamian goddess of love. Her primary role was that of a goddess of love, and she was associated with eroticism and sensuality, though she was also a patron of lovers, including rejected or betrayed ones. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanaya

[@NothingRemains.]

Even after two years, I still find it funny how the flame that can literally end all of existence, is tied with death blight as being one of the worst status effects to use in PVE.

[@setsunaes]

That torch... that shit is the WHOLE spinal column of the BABY and the flame in the torch his head... no one can convince me otherwise. This history is way way more tragic that what were gasping now.