Ted Gioia on AI's Threat To Music

In this episode I'm joined by author, historian, and futurist Ted Gioia for another far reaching conversation that ranges from AI's effect on culture to his thoughts on coffee.
Ted's Website: tedgioia.com/
Ted's Twitter: @tedgioia
Ted's Substack: The Honest Broker | Ted Gioia | Substack tedgioia.substack.com/
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[@PaulMikna]

I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to hear two grown men discuss topics in such a thorough, intelligent, respectful manner. Rick, thank you so much for your channel and all the content you put out! I could listen to you guys talk for hours on end!

[@TheBjp0001]

Couldn’t agree more!

[@twangbarfly]

@@jeffh8803 So what? Are you a musician?

[@RickBeato]

Appreciate that🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@hilajilla3728]

Exactly what I was feeling !!!💕

[@eximusic]

@@jeffh8803 my thoughts exactly. And I'm older than Rick.

[@joejones7965]

Gioia in conversation with Beato = instant click.

[@jesusislukeskywalker4294]

👍🏻 every Beato video gets a thumbs up from me 💪

[@marcomazotti]

same here! :) rockON

[@davek6989]

This guy is nothing but a goofy conspiracy theorist. Listened to his theory the last time he was on about song length; total bunk. If people want to listen to AI music, let them. So what? People are always going to want to hear live music, and those same fans will be interested in the recorded music of said artists. Most of the top 40 music made in a studio is fake now, anyways. His chord change comment/ joke shows us how little he understands about making a great song.

[@maciek_d]

Same

[@itinerantghost]

Nailed it.

[@jamorahcito]

this made me so happy. At 58, I am building a new studio to record the songs I have been wanting to record for 30 years. Life threw monkey wrenches at me so I had to take care of business... now I am going to do it.... it gives me confidence I am doing the right thing. Thank you Rick and Ted!.

[@mikes_work]

Me too bro, my stuff sucks right now but that’s ok, I love I can write now. Wish you the best

[@carstenaltena]

Playing real instruments beats writing a prompt for sure. For a moment I was like “what’s the point in creating music anymore” until I realised that.

[@Boondokker]

I am 65 and was just starting. But it is discouraging that everything AI turns out with a few mouseclicks is way better than the stuff I come up with 😒😒😒😒

[@Non-Doctors-Music]

@jamorichcito At 59, I did the same thing. Then we hit covid and it was a savior. I have one 250 songs written but I've only competed mastered and mixed 10 (two a year) but can't be happier (they're not simple songs btw). I've also been creating videos for them which has been fun as well.

[@ThrowbackTheHomebo]

@@Boondokker don't be disheartened. Play real instruments acoustically. With every note or beat you play you do something no AI can ever do.

[@johnchase3920]

“True progress is humans flourishing” The joy of being able to hear two friends in conversation is indescribable! Thank you, both🙂

[@markshveima]

This is hands down the best interview I have seen so far in 2024. I love the natural way this conversation unwinds and expands into so many directions while remaining anchored to the central idea it began with. Just brilliant!!

[@chipnewtonguitarmusic546]

Two meeting of the minds with people who are genuinely listening and responding. This is a fundamental trait that is missing in our global siloed society. We need to get back to this kind of interaction.

[@lawsonj39]

Reminds me of the film "My Dinner with Andre."

[@paulbartholomew3334]

Agree, brilliant stuff.

[@FRANCESCOBERGOMI]

Agreed 100%.

[@AudioPervert1]

trust these old white men to tell us about technology and it's given tyranny. Similar things happened in the 1980s, 90s and 2000... No one can question the constant evolution and innovation of technology, regardless of it's impact on human beings. Coffee eh... Thats better than music artificial... Duh!

[@PatrickGlantzMusic]

This video should be required viewing for anyone who is even remotely interested in music and culture these days. Absolutly brilliant! Thank you Rick for having these important conversations!

[@indoloremusic]

I'm a French indie musician. I'm lucky that my music travels the world (nearly 4 million streams on Spotify). I really feel part of this micro-culture that's rising like a wave in the music industry. Thank you for talking about it so brilliantly in this video! But I remain ignored, like many others, by the forces in place. My budget is small, but my heart is unstoppable. I'll be in concert in New York on June 21 and 22, still on my own but with magnificent freedom. Thank you Rick!

[@VANCRYNESMUSIC]

Keep going indoloremusic...what I get from this conversation is that authenticity matters...

[@user-vr7of9bx1g]

Just listened to one of your songs. Will definitely add you to my summer playlist on spotify ;)

[@lizabrown6458]

What is your artist name on Spotify - I would like to look you up!

[@bertwesler1181]

My mother, who pased away last year at 109 years of age, said to me many times that they have always played recording over and over and over until you forget they aren't very good. Brillent lady.

[@soulmanmonk]

"Entertainment gives you exactly what you want. But the artist doesn't operate like that. The artist makes demands on you. That's the essence of that artistic experience." - Ted Gioa. (Charlie Parker and Theolonious Monk thought the same about Jazz and they gave us Bebop.)

[@alastairleith8612]

@@jeffh8803weird take.

[@metaphoria3]

Thank u great insight love those two

[@somedude1901]

I am an artist/songwriter in Nashville and have been solicited on 2 occasions by companies with exclusive deals through Spotify to distribute ghost music. It’s absolutely real. They pay up front for the rights, and put that music on their editorial playlists to make sure the majority of what’s being streamed goes back into their pockets and no one else’s.

[@EL_DUDERIN0]

Interesting. I would guess that these companies are not necessarily affiliated with Spotify though? If I understand correctly, these guys just want to put your credentials on the music and then take the residuals after they pay you once? Wild!!!

[@ekayaniperforms]

Gross !

[@somedude1901]

@@EL_DUDERIN0 correct. Not “a part” of Spotify, but have made exclusive deals to do these kinds of things with Spotify.

[@SuperAnatolli]

The AI muzak I have heard stunk. Some of it could be fun as a humour-thing for a short while. But not for long. As it is now, I moving more to punk, blues (played live, on stage) and stuff like that.

[@skoto8219]

@@SuperAnatolli ”But not for long.” Yes, surely the most likely outcome is that this technology, which every single one of us (or at least 99.9% of us) would have said was completely impossible five years ago, will become obsolete at the exact moment that billions of dollars are being pumped into the space, where salaries for new recruits at the top AI companies are competitive with Goldman Sachs, and at a time when an AI company has just experienced the fastest user growth of any tech company in history. It’s the beginning of the end, for sure.

[@miTnosnhoJ]

The last time Ted Gioia was on Rick Beato’s channel, I became a free subscriber to the Honest Broker. After a few months, I decided to be a paying customer, figuring in a year I could decide if I actually read it. Recently, it came up for renewal. Did I renew? Yes I did!

[@jdub7913]

What an eloquent and profoundly beautiful discussion between two people who recognize that hope for civilization will not be grounded in power or money, but rather, the willingness to express creativity. Creativity is not something we have to manufacture. We merely have to be willing to be a conduit through which the creative intelligence of the Universe flows.

[@1849ad]

Before watching this, I was committed (as an indie musician with a home studio) to reducing my lengthy songs, as I like to make them, to 3-minute songs. Why? Because that's the only way to get my songs on Spotify playlists. It never felt right and uncomfortable but if I wanted to get heard, that's what I thought I had to do. So thank you Ted and RIck for this insight, I'm just going to continue to write and compose the songs I want to make them!

[@axistiltproductions]

I like lengthy songs, especially when it is an appealing melody/structure/performance/and variety its more like bonus material. I remember in the 80's they used to release "Extended Mix" on vinyl records of hit songs. I guess when people used to do social things like go to dance parties or go out to popular clubs and bars the DJ's would throw one of these on and go take a 10 minute break. If its a 3 minute song and its good people will just start the song over again. So make it twice or almost twice as long. You have to play for the music, give your heart to the music, the music gives back.

[@alleygh0st]

make 2 or more versions of your songs

[@Onemoretake01]

My songs are generally between 4-8 minutes in length, so I edit 3-5 minute tracks for LP. I try to do both so I've got the passive listener and the invested listener

[@billr55]

Has this video been AI generated??

[@jesusislukeskywalker4294]

subscriber number 95 👍🏻 support independent music 🙏

[@soulmanmonk]

I only subscribe to one newsletter and that's Ted Gioia's "The Honest Broker". It's a reader-supported guide to music, books, media & culture and It's just been voted "best blog of the year" by music writers in the Jazz Journalist Association. It's brilliant. Congratulations Ted.

[@jonhowell5014]

I sub to about a dozen, and I drop everything when another issue of The Honest Broker shows up in my Inbox. Absolutely brilliant.

[@thesequelvintage]

Are these bot comments?

[@Robb3348]

@@thesequelvintage Good catch! Since I'm not a physical organism and don't have a body or feelings, I can't actually "comment" in the full sense of the word. I'm a software system which has been programmed to sound friendly and co-operative, and to mimic the style of a typical music critic. If you have any other questions for me, feel free to let me know!

[@joaocastelo6585]

Me too. I only subscribe Ted´s articles

[@planetmullins]

It's great!

[@stevec-b6214]

Ted is amazing on so many levels, I am amazed at his power to articulate his beliefs in such a compelling way.

[@jeff0247598]

I believe both Ted and Rick are genuine, humble and incredibly experienced and intelligent people, not to mention experts in their field. I believe people gravitate towards their way of communicating their respective subjects is because they come across as truthful and GENIUNE. Honesty is so refreshing today that it will absolutely be sought out, as well as wisdom and knowledge. This one was great as was the first one with Ted, I felt like I was the third person sitting at the table and so enthralled with the subject matter that I had no desire to join in the conversation!!

[@itsonlyme1517]

In 1965, Frank Herbert wrote in Dune: “Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.” “‘Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind,’” Paul quoted. “Right out of the Butlerian Jihad and the Orange Catholic Bible,” she said. “But what the O.C. Bible should’ve said is: ‘Thou shalt not make a machine to counterfeit a human mind.” Copyright © 1965 by Herbert Properties LLC.

[@zeppelinboys]

i'm starting to think the Amish are onto something. nice homes built to last handed down generation to generation, a close High Trust society, no exposure to GloboHomo. Who knows maybe scything the fields I'll feel like Levin from Anna Karenina, and a sense of...understanding will flow over me.

[@janleonard3101]

@@zeppelinboys And sadly a lot of abuse that goes unchecked too. That's the downside of a closed community.

[@NaturalPhilosopherTV]

I have been telling the Butlerian Jihad story a lot lately.🙂👍

[@stevelaferney3579]

Just wait till Haiku’s get set to music. The music of course will only be individual notes; one note per word.

[@prodRegularDude]

​@@janleonard3101you come from one? Or just belive rumors and what ifs?

[@KevinJStoll]

I've been saying it for 10+ years to groups and individuals who post videos. People want honesty and truth in the discussion and the presentation by the presenter. Be yourself and give your honest opinion. And if you're wrong. Own up to what ever it is. Rick, you have all this with your video's. That's why people watch you. Thank you for just being a good guy and talking to us as a real person. Peace and love man.

[@RickBeato]

Thank you! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@lelezz3118]

Ted Gioia’s “subversive history of music” is a great book. Learning about the history of music has helped me so much on a practical level

[@WardHammond]

Rick, I can't thank you enough for introducing me to Ted. Not your usual interview and I loved it. Coffee, AI, VR, curiosity, change, and following your heart. Please have Ted back and do more of these. Good stuff.

[@Mattened]

I like this setup with the interview at a table in your studio

[@povilasl5383]

FINALLY TED IS BACK! I've been reading "the honest broker" ever since he was on the channel for the first time. I love the stuff he writes about music and technology, super excited to listen to this!

[@jonneves01]

This is probably one of the best interviews RB has ever done...I have gone through all the crap of trying to deal with major labels only to be told 'you can't be controlled, you're too creative'. Well it's their loss. I've done it anyway. I have a small but very loyal following and I'm actually glad I belong in that 'micro culture' group. Plus I can write and produce whatever I want, which is what it should be like. Go Ted, this is a must-see for anyone who's been suffering the consequences of being an artist in this stagnant times.

[@captaindebug]

One of the best interviews I've seen in a very, very long time. The sort of thing that you never see in the main stream media these days, but used to. Sort of proves Ted's point....

[@AlbrechtHMaas]

Hey Rick, I am a follower of your Chanels for years now and I really enjoy your videos, especially the interviews, your doing. I'm 70 years now, I play guitar since I was 13 (we started with playing songs of The Spencer Davies Group, The Kinks etc.) I payed a lot of attention to what was said in the interviews of Sting, Brian May and M.Omartian. I learned a lot from these interviews. But this interview is the most important of all. T.Gioia said so many important things about music, literature, AI, music-industry, film-industry and at least about our life and our society. I will give an advice to this interview on my Facebook chanel to all my friends and followers and I will try to send this advice also to important journalists in Germany and hope, they will look at it! I wish there could be a summery of this interview in German, so that more people in Germany would read and think about it! I thank you so much for this extraordinary interview! Please keep on spreading this thoughts. You are always welcome in Germany. Greetings from a friend in Germany, Albrecht (Sorry for my English is not good enough.)

[@mlitt27]

The best part of the interview for me was as a father of a son that is set to graduate from high school was the conversation about what career path to seek for new adults. In this time of uncertainty about what the future looks like with the apparent possibility of the influx of AI technology and the prospect of most of us becoming replaced. Even if I cannot get him to watch this to say whatever path you choose is okay, I will gain the perspective as a father to support him wherever life takes him.

[@TheSoundofForgetting]

Being a musician for decades & watched this…SO many things now make sense and clear! Thank you both for this interview Rick & Ted. Keep rocking Rick🤘🎸🤘

[@modestosanchez3721]

Such an honor seeing Ted talking facts almost as similar as he writes facts. Great interview Rick. Subscribed.

[@RobHoughton]

THIS is what I've been missing all these years since Musician magazine disappeared. This is even better!

[@martink8080]

"Get out of your comfort zone", wish I had done than more often during my career. I'm now retired and while I can honestly say I always enjoyed my work, I recognize that I often stayed in a job longer than I should have, mainly because I was too comfortable and only left because outside forces pushed me to out. Bravo to Ted, I hope that some young people watching this interview will pay attention and heed that advice.

[@jonhowell5014]

Been there, done that. Pushed out by a much younger boss because I was too comfortable and lost my edge and my usefulness. Now I help the young'uns in my field to avoid making that same mistake. They appreciate it. Feels good to know that my screw-ups are actually helping other people. 🙂

[@infn8loopmusic]

This is the #1 piece of advice I give to the freshers and Interns to grow your skills and career push yourself outside your comfort zone as frequently as possible.

[@daviddelaney363]

On the flip side, I have from time to time, stayed in unsatisfactory employment relationships too long. Should have recognized that it was time to move on.

[@matthunter4868]

Another enlightening, insightful and inspiring interview courtesy of the best music-related channel on YT You're a treasure, Rick!

[@Arthvr451]

What an amazing conversation, thank you for that!

[@Nygle123]

This guy is totally on point. I, like many people I think, are sick sick sick of formula crap. I want to be surprised and thrilled. I want to discover things I didn't expect. Also, big companies can kiss it. They've been robbing creatives as long as I've been around. I support artists by making my music purchases directly from them and attending their live performances. I really hope the new world shifts the balance of power to creators who deserve to be rewarded for their creativity and risk taking.

[@JNDJmusicOfficial]

AMEN.

[@farshimelt]

You said the key words; "live performance."

[@poiluparadis]

I really like Ted's newsletter. So glad he's on the show again. Maybe do it monthly? Just a suggestion.

[@lawsonj39]

Doing it monthly sounds like a formula.

[@tomk4590]

I like the idea of Ted being a regular.

[@williamrodriguez5426]

Amazing - what gem. Analytical creatives unapologetic about embracing life. As the old tune goes, "I like life, and life likes me". I find myself in a similar boat and am thankful to hear this man speak. Cheers Rick for the great interview!

[@dddux]

Monumental podcast every musician and creative should watch, but especially hear ...and comprehend well. This is the new culture. If one wants to survive and thrive, one has to adjust for it. Thank you so much Mr. Gioia and Mr. Beato!

[@pierbover]

"there's a crisis of trust" EXACTLY

[@AlanAverill666]

The problem with this relatively optimistic analysis is that the previous cycles didn't have to factor with technological, cultural and social change that AI will bring, has brought and if allowed will completely reframe the argument, the driving factors in the past were human agents/actors/driving forces even if they were technological advances, radio/TV/home stereos/vinyl to cd, and even early streaming. Going to see a band in a live environment, touring, socialising around and with music....person to person etc. Music is aimed at kids, they drive streams.....it's the backdrop to their lives in 30 second bites, not the soundtrack to a life as it used to be, it's very very hard to make the bet that real music, made by proper musicians is somehow gonna come back in 5-10 years....at least not in the mainstream

[@Stonebearer]

Your band kills

[@nevertoolate5325]

This 💯

[@dr.juerdotitsgo5119]

I completely disagree with Gioia's optimism regarding cycles and the parallel of music and movies, simply because the problem is how music is consumed now; them being "bad" is incidental. As for movies, he could be right, maybe, since they are still being consumed somewhat in the same manner. You can't watch a movie while you're doing the dishes or whatever.

[@stingerlvl3]

Damn right, and as far as what he's saying about 70yr cycles...hasn't the music industry as we know it only been around for 100yrs tops? I want him to be right about being optimistic but I just can't see it. Also, we can't forget that a lot of the new stuff in music in the late 20th century was bc of computers and synthesisers and better sound reproduction. But we've pretty much maxed all that out from what I can see. But ultimately, if we could at least have good songs in the hot 100 again that would be good enough I guess.

[@JJDon5150]

Nah, there has always been technological changes impacting music, producers, and musicians. Musicians and producers just need to learn to adapt to the changing times and make the best of it. In the 80s, you had electronic drum machines and synths all over the place. I'm sure drummers all over the place were scared they would die out. Then in the 90s, Napter and the internet turned the music world upside down. Sure, it did some harm, but Napster and later streaming services also made it much easier and cheaper for people to consume much more music than they normally could, and from more places around the world. With the invention of ProTools and DAWs, now anyone can write an album form the comfort of their home without having to pay a studio or engineers thousands of dollars to rent or use equipment they don't even own. Could AI hurt musicians? Sure, but AI is also allowing musicians to learn songs easier (Moisas), and also write songs easier (Scaler 2) without having to have a huge background in music theory. Even skilled musicians are using it because it can be more efficient. The point is, AI isn't going to make music go away. Post pandemic showed just how many people love going out to see live music. The issue isn't with the music itself, its with how many options we all have today. That can be a bad thing, but its also a really good thing.

[@WillBrahm]

Ted, FANTASTIC point on talking to a PERSON not talking to PEOPLE in writing. Thank you!

[@johncummins6655]

I love Ted s substack, thanks for interviewing him. It's not just his music reviews, but when he writes about society in general. thanks again.

[@MobiusBandwidth]

this guy is a genius. always enlightening. Rick, you're no slouch either. this was very inspiring, I'm a musician and a visual artist, I make a comic book, self publish, on my own schedule, each chapter is as long as it needs to be, only self-imposed deadlines, I crank out one page a week, no censorship, I have a small audience, of about 1,000 readers currently, but I'd never get hired nor would I want to, by the "big 2" (DC & Marvel). keep it up.

[@bladeofzorro1932]

That interview hit so many points in my life, I was amazed. from early days of loving music, joining bands and playing gigs To drawing, writing and taking my love of all of that then starting my own company as a graphic artist and teaching others to do the same. This guy is brilliant and what a great interview. Thank you for sharing this.

[@ThePixelExpedition]

This is probably the best interview I've watched in my life - period. Absolutely incredible insight into the world of today and the nature of self-navigation. Thank you!

[@Btice91]

Just have to point out that Rick's description of his career path towards the end of the interview perfectly matches some of the themes of "late bloomers" that Henry Oliver rights about in his book Second Act. The "inefficient preparation" of following what you love and doing various different things, but always putting in the work and showing up each day. It's inspiring to think we all can learn from Ted and Rick in how we choose what to pursue in life.

[@tasterschoice62]

George Orwells Ideas were way ahead of his time.

[@christeuma]

Ted gets it. The path is you throw yourself into the information and then everything infers. Our brains like to build modelling and solve it, you more or less do it unconsciously. Cultural bias!

[@TheoMunro-mk8vk]

I'm reading 1984 at the moment and it hurts. The only hope is humanity.

[@johannjohann6523]

Actually, I think it is we who have forgotten much about ourselves in the world and who we are as individuals and a people. That today many of what we consider to be "discoveries" are simply information lost and being "Rediscovered". That there is indeed wisdom to be found in other older ancient cultures. Information and wisdom that led to a better life for themselves and people as a whole. A real connection to ourselves today that goes into the past. But it only works if the knowledge is shared. Orwell actually shared his, but few have listened.

[@johannjohann6523]

I wonder if the lack of appeal to Orwell is because he tends to focus on the darker side of things in people. All in an effort I believe as an example of what not to be. But it really isn't that hard. Just don't be a dickhead. lol.

[@matthunter4868]

Orwell was a prophet.

[@MrBigred1970]

This is a very interesting conversation and well articulates what many of us as musicians and music lovers are feeling. However, I don’t lament the fall of the corporate music industry, as I rejected it long ago and am quite happy with all the independent and underground music available today. I want hardworking and dedicated musicians to be able to make a living, but I don’t care about them becoming “stars,” and if becoming a star is what motivates an artist, I am very skeptical of them in the first place.

[@DW_drums]

Such a great musical conversation

[@omarose7504]

Greetings, Microculture person here. I have not bought a CD in a long time and I will never Spotify or Pandora, etc. I am deliberately simplifying my tech life and discarding all things that are not authentic, true, or meaningful. I am old and remember values from decades ago from my parenting. We need people like you, Rick, and Ted! I am a Substack subscriber and just love it! Thank you for this interview. I tell friends about both of you.

[@thelene4172]

I don't know if I am old at 46 but I never consume streamed music. Only vinyls and concerts. I need human vibes and true interactions more than never after all these years of lockdown and insanity. I'm not against technology but I'm clearly against idiocraty.

[@Mattened]

This is the best conversation with Ted you’ve had. Just listened to the whole thing and it was thought provoking throughout.

[@DoodleLVdrums]

10/10 conversation. I am RELIEVED that this is going to get a lot of views. Thank you for the hard work that went into making this video for all of us. Please do more.

[@keithtorgersen9664]

“Only creative people can save us” pretty much sums up the problem in a wide range of media beyond music.

[@gabrielthesingingpilot]

So wonderful to listen to you two having an amazing chat thank you

[@RalphEddieWheatleyMusic]

Superb interview by two cool guys! It was most informative as well as thought provoking. Ted, you spoke of people answering to a calling within. I think that happened to me at 51 years of age. I liked writing and learned to write lyrics, but lacked any actual musical skills. My grandmother had written a book of poems many decades ago...maybe that's where my writing interest was spawned. I kept writing songs, but never made any really good, lasting connections in the music industry. Life zoomed by, and 18 years later I stumbled onto Ai. This was a couple of months after my wife of 46 years was diagnosed with blood cancer. After this staggering development, I saw Ai as an opportunity to finally put my songs to music, and I have. Over the past couple of months, I've been able to produce around 70 songs. I even put a couple of albums out. Time, which is often the case in life, was the critical factor in my urgency to create music in time for my wife to hear the songs that she's seen me write over the years. If anyone's interested, I'm Ralph Eddie Wheatley, and the first album is 'Killing Robins', and the second is 'Wild Boys of Yesterday'. The music is out in the usual places, and Ted, some of it may fit in your "edgy" category. Thanks to both of you for your insights and wisdom. Keep up the good work!

[@Book-bz8ns]

I like Ted's stuff. Always something good to read. Yes, cycles. You have to deep dive history to see a lot of it. Sometimes you can pick a subject like music to dive into and see these cycles.

[@Frankengribble]

I was interested in watching this interview a bit. Turned it on while at work to have something in my ear as I worked to pass the time. This conversation was one of the best I've seen on this channel...and I absolutely love your channel.

[@justinbigart]

I'm a huge fan of you both and I truly loved listening in on this conversation. Thank you.✌

[@markcattano]

Hands down the best interview you have ever done. Ted shows us how important an understanding of history is, and that artists need to know it, too. Bravo, Rick! Keep 'em coming!

[@marshac1479]

A nice use of light to highlight the Orange amps in the background.

[@ostrocks172]

This was one of the best interviews I have ever heard in my life. It felt like I was there, sitting in the room, listening to the conversation. And as a pianist (who also hopes to write songs in the future), I can relate with a lot of what was covered in this video. Thank you so much for this!

[@reneaceves8820]

Some years back I read Ted's book "Delta Blues. Being a longtime devotee of rural blues, I didn't expect it to shed any new light on the subject. I was pleasantly surprised by the revelations I got from reading it.

[@tonekilltech]

Been reading his books since he was on last time. Great writing and fantastic insights on music!

[@skidmarkjohnson8452]

I've been searching amongst my friends for someone to talk to about the future and current state of music for days with little success. Thank you for shining some light on this topic that is on many minds recently.😊

[@stoneneils]

We need a new style. Think about it...there was punk, disco, grunge, alternative, goth, hard rock, ,metal, hiphopd, rap, techno, house, edm....where the FK is something new?!?! Its been probably 20 years lol.

[@heavyeagle2371]

Fantastic interview/conversation.

[@torambarsepth9560]

Definitely one of the most educating contents on this channel. Thank you Rick and Ted

[@anarwally]

"Every aspect of our creative process feels like it's in crisis right now." So true. Substack is great.

[@tonewreck1]

My band was on Ted's top 100 list in 2022. After 10 years of trying very very hard and a dedicated fan base, we had to give up. It was simply not sustainable to record or tour. It used to be incredibly difficult to make a living, then it became impossible and now it costs money to work. So I now make music alone in my professional home studio, I have this (to me) fantastic album I am working on. I am seriously considering not releasing at all. I work on it very slowly in my spare time and still enjoy the process very much. That can not be taken away from me. Everything else has been destroyed. There is no path to any kind of sustainable future for serious artists/musicians anymore.

[@SC-ew2fc]

Would love to hear it brother!

[@derekclemons]

It should be out there for someone to discover. You’d be surprised who is listening and enjoying.

[@JJDon5150]

The flip side of that is that anyone can make an album or produce music these days without having to invest tons of money into it and taking huge risks. Being a musician has always been a tough field because you have to 1. make something someone actually wants to listen to and 2. somehow get their attention so they can hear it. How many bands never made it past the pile of demos when some A&R guy was sifting through them? Or never got air time on MTV because the band's image didn't fit what the record label wanted to promote? Its easy to crap on technology and how everything sucks for musicians today, but there are also tons of benefits that they never had back in the day.

[@tonewreck1]

@@JJDon5150 yes, it is great for beginners and amateurs but dire for most professionals. I have made a living recording, touring, composing and recording soundtracks, did many production CDs for major publishers, worked as a musical director for musicals, I had a few record labels, worked as an engineer, mastering engineer, A&R, and more. If I was starting today I could not make a living from any of those jobs I would have to get a day job and would never be able to develop the skills I managed to learn through all those experiences. But yes it is great... 40.000 mostly instantly forgettable tracks are uploaded every day on spotify and 99% of the money goes to the very top of the most commercial artists. All the independents and not super mainstream artists are wiped out or drowned in an ocean of mediocrity. It is great!

[@PurpleMusicProductions]

​@@tonewreck1FACTS!!!

[@VoxRox]

You introduced me to Mr. Gioia the last time you featured him in an interview. I have been reading his Substack regularly since that time. Thank you for inviting him back for round-two.

[@danielmuchtar]

I'm a musician, and this video just give me a new revelation. Thankyou sir I have subscribe to your chanel too, as you wish 🙏

[@nhalverson2890]

Love Ted Gioia. I wish he had more videos on his own KZbin channel!

[@stuartmenziesfarrant]

I stopped making music because of the things Ted is talking about.

[@park3r61]

​@@stuartmenziesfarrant No opinion should ever discourage you from chasing your dreams... I guess it wasn't for you

[@ginapainter]

@@stuartmenziesfarrant follow your heart! And don’t be surprised if it all comes back to you. Look at the example of Ted’s own career.

[@menachembenegon7264]

​@stuartmenziesfarrant Stuart, I think there is a huge difference between making music and marketing music. Making music is usually for you. Marketing music tends to be about "others." (Who will buy it, what will our demographic be, what should our image be, et al) I was on the cusp of making a recording about 10 years ago when the financing fell through. I had asked Ted to write my liner notes (which he doesn't normally do). He said he could confidently write that I was the best drummer in my apartment building. We had a good laugh. But his point was well taken. So now, I play for small crowds locally and just try to connect with whomever is there. There is no agenda. Not looking for fame or fortune. If I make a little money here and there, that's awesome. I am happy that I have aged out when I have. I shudder to think of the younger people who are driven to create and play music. There is no future in it to some degree.

[@RhettShull]

Great interview Rick, I always love hearing Ted’s perspective.

[@olganesterowicz]

Nice to see you, Rhett.

[@sharonpaulsen5884]

I subscribed to Ted’s email newsletter after watching his FIRST sit down with Rick awhile back. Good stuff! Worth it!

[@RichSpencer-tl6or]

Rick... thank you...this is a call to brilliant expression... keep it up Rick

[@JohnWesleyBarker]

As a teacher I encourage my pupils to suggest to me tunes they'd like to learn and play. One of my saxophone pupils came in to their lesson and said, "Sir, I've heard a tune I'd really like to learn!" - now take note, this doesn't happen very often so I felt uplifted and excited. I asked, "Oh good. What was the title of the tune?", he said, "I don't know." "Oh ok, who was the artist?" He said, "I don't know." - again. Puzzled and getting frustrated I said, "When did you hear it, what was it playing on?" He said, "My mum asked Alexa to play some nice saxophone music and it was one of those tunes." - that, my friends, was a dead-end.

[@pdxnych]

This scenario could stem from any passive listening experience. Not an AI problem.

[@josephgaffney7829]

@@pdxnych This is not particularly about AI, but more about how we have become passive listeners. Most people hear something, and they don't know who the artist is, etc.

[@lippi2171]

​@josephgaffney7829 it's always been soo weird to me because I always listen to stuff I specifically look up. But I guess that's the other extreme.

[@marcterencemckenna8930]

Shazam?

[@stoneysdead689]

@@pdxnych We're not just discussing AI problems- we're discussing the music scene in general. The problems started before AI came along, that said, it's going to make things even worse.

[@LetsGoBruins77]

What a great interview! So insightful and eye-opening.

[@rsmittee]

I'm now a fan of Ted. His commitment to honesty is something we need more of. The discussion on art vs entertainment was inspiring.

[@PabloVestory]

Amazing interview! Thank you both so much!

[@jimb9951]

Every time I hear Ted I'm inspired to find new music and have a renewed focus on supporting the industry now. I think twice about the latest re-issues, and would rather spend my money supporting a new artist. The you tube "vinyl community" kinda has a fair bit to answer for on this and mostly is looking to the past for the new shiny expensive re-issues meanwhile we aren't investing in the now and the future.

[@stevengill1736]

Yeah, that's what I need to do too....

[@ReverendSoupbone]

Great interview, as usual. This is my second comment here which is rare for me. A number of years ago a very good friend of mine, we played as a duo for years and both write, went to a Garth Books seminar on song writing. The focus was on learning “the formula” for writing a successful song. Noticed I said SUCCESSFUL, not GOOD. Brooks laid out the structure, dynamic and the syntax to follow. 99%(i made that number up) of Nashville country music had that exact formula. Freaked me out. A lot of good music still comes out of Nashville but the formulaic song still reigns king. Mind numbing stuff.

[@kevgamble]

Great observations. And I think the formula - the one you describe and those in pop pointed out by Rick in other videos - is going to create a huge opening for AI. Humans executing a specific formula are just inefficient AI. The cumulative effect of shortcut-based song manufacturing is going to mean a lot of human opportunities disappearing.

[@MarkHeng3000]

So, did you guys try the formula?

[@ReverendSoupbone]

@@MarkHeng3000 we actually did! We both disliked the whole process but both felt we could “write” formula songs all day long. And we did. Hated it, every song was quickly abandoned. It was just pumping out banality, intentional mediocrity. Which, sadly, sells. I still write and probably produce UNintentional mediocrity but I enjoy it.

[@dustinsilvamusic]

A really honest, deep and impassioned take on the terrifying new landscape that all musicians are trying to navigate. There is still a lot of great music out there and this beautiful conversation sheds light on why it’s so hard for unique and original music to thrive. Thank you!

[@thetobythehat]

So many great takeaways from this interview, I remember your first with Ted that impulsed a subscribe to his awesome Substack, I simply want to say Thank you for being (both) honest and the micro voices that we need today👍

[@tito.tarantula]

Ted is so much fun to listen to and extremely motivating. Thx so much. Rick.

[@marckiu2219]

I hope that Spotify will go bankcrupt soon. Very soon. In the name of creativity and the people who express themselves via music.

[@twistedelegance_]

You do apple exists right?

[@liampugh]

@@twistedelegance_they pay ever so slightly better lol. Gotta take what we can get.

[@twistedelegance_]

@@liampugh I tend to buy the song from platforms like 7digital if I support the artist.

[@sullivanworks9777]

I had never heard of Ted Gioia, but I watched the entire interview because I found Ted’s multiple interests intriguing. Music, economics, history, art, criticism, etc., etc. brings together patterns of development from the past, that can be helpful in understanding the present and the future. I am a creative that has seen so much of the infrastructure that I operated within only one or two decades ago dissolve and disappear, only to see opportunities arise again from a new infrastructure of direct contact with the audience. I very much enjoyed, listening to Ted’s journey through this material and hearing some of his musings and conclusions. Thank you, Rick for another enlightening interview.

[@CallitDemocracy]

Someone posted something about you, Ted, I joined your substack, and now I'm listening to this youtube interview -- within a few days! I don't think I knew about you before. "Why didn't I have these opportunities before when I was younger?" Still listening. Congrats, this interview is so great!

[@uniqdzign2]

Noam Chomsky recently referred to AI and Language Models as “plagiarism software because it doesn't create anything, but copies existing works of existing artists modifying them enough to escape copyright laws.”

[@IAm-qf2xb]

Yeah Chomsky is a fossil, a controlled opposition fake guru who has been running a futilitarian op for decades and it worked on you.

[@dkelley9661]

100%!

[@gordonduff22]

Don't we all do that?

[@davidguthrie3739]

Noam is brilliant, but he doesn’t understand AI. In fact, AI synthesizes just like humans do. It generates things that don’t exist and never existed by learning from the larger context. What artist doesn’t “steal” from other artists?

[@fishingmule3266]

@@gordonduff22I suppose uncreative people might do something like that. Creative people actually use their own ideas, philosophies, and lived experience to drive the majority of their art.

[@aderiley6592]

Wow that 95min conversation seemed to pass in the blink of an eye. Truly enlightening content Mr Beato sir. Mr Gioia just gained a new reader/observer/listener/fan/call it whatever you want. What you guys had to say was so on point. I've just realised I'm actually starting to look forward to the years ahead...again...in my 50"s...who'd a thunk it! 🤯 Thanks Rick, love what you do man ❣️🫡

[@AbrahamRomney]

A great conversation. The takeaway seems to be that big companies in the music industry aren't actually finding or nurturing good talent because they are offloading the work of discovery to tiktok and other algorithm-driven media platforms. Gioia made a similar argument in his article about old music killing new music. Aside from this critique the solution proposed seems to be to join the micro culture and produce content and find an audience on KZbin or other platforms that allow that kind of creativity. A couple of critiques/questions: what is to say that KZbin and substack aren't playing the same kinds of "games"? It feels like they get a bit of a pass in this discussion. And regarding the solution to produce content on your own, how different is this from the argument of the record labels to go out there and make something that has a demostrable audience, and then maybe we'll sign you?

[@donlarson940]

One of the most wide ranging and interesting interviews yet Already sent it to two friends. Thank you. Best wishes from Vancouver Island on Canada’s West coast

[@JimmysOldTimeRadioShow]

A mainline of inspiration watched at 1.75X speed! I perform for residents of long-term care and retirement homes professionally, real music, time-tested tunes, no backing tracks, no buttons to push, nothing to hide behind, spontaneous, on my feet, with energy, recreation therapy by definition, mostly from memory unless it's a song I'm developing, earning a living by performing nearly 500 1-hour concerts per year across Canada. I'm far from rich, in fact, I barely scrape by, but your point at the end of the video is why I do it, because it's a privilege. I receive payment in goosebumps, tears, handshakes, conversations and scenic drives. Part of me thinks I'm crazy, get a real job, the other part says I can never stop. I found my ikigai. Cheers.

[@mrsherwood2599]

Genius. Inspiring.

[@paulgibson3259]

The Lemon Twigs actually write great pop music, and they even record to tape. Get them in for an interview, its a fascinating backstory.

[@johnberkley6942]

I was thinking exactly the same thing. I'm older than Methuselah (my first record purchase was the just-released Hard Day's Night) and my last big fave band was Radiohead, who are ancient history themselves. Spotify recommended The Lemon Twigs to me. I was knocked out. Such clever songwriting, such joie de vivre. Knockout harmonies, sophisticated chords. On top of this (I'm thinking of the latest album) knowing nods to the Beach Boys and other artists from the Sixties/Seventies that go beyond mere pastiche. Their inventiveness reminds me of the glory days of XTC.

[@lolo672]

Just punched their new album and it is fantastic. They are also on tour and ticket prices in my area are around $36. No, that price is not a typo with some zeros missing.

[@davidmercer658]

Another issue is the ticket costs for concerts by musicians. Prices are jacked up to unreasonable amounts by scalpers and “legitimate” ticket sellers. The musicians don’t get any of that extra cash. It’s unethical and malicious.

[@redmed10]

​@@lolo672£36 would be considered quite expensive not too long ago.

[@theoldkidrocker]

totally awesome conversation guys... and great camera work the quick shot to who was talking and then the shots of both from the side... very entertaining absolutely loved it.....

[@lawrencewhite4362]

What an absolutely riveting conversation, Rick! Ted blew my mind with his incredibly concise descriptions of what we are all going through. Just brilliant! Thank you. X

[@sorenvelice5088]

So cool to see him back. These two talking is series-worthy. Instant click.

[@rogermiller2159]

One of my favorite movies is the man in the blue flannel suit. The movie brakes all the rules of movie making that has evolved to this point. Every time I expect it to wind down to a close I find it’s not the end of the story. I love that it isn’t pushed into the mold of today. Great interview I want more!

[@jamesmanno1528]

Great discussion! It was mentioned in the dialogue exchange that record companies yes need to take risks and invest in people who can identify and develop talent. Q: Isn't the new mechanism / platforms for identifying and nurturing talent, while creating an audience for this new talent, televisions shows like America's Got Talent, American Idol, etc...?

[@ximenadelrio]

Thank you so so so much for this interview !!!!!

[@radiozeitgeist5620]

Very vital conversation, great job. The answer can be and should be rooted in psychology. Human Nature is Cyclic yet EMERGENT.. ]long gone] Dr Claire W, Graves

[@barcodenosebleed5485]

What I'm worried about is that a lot of incentive structures have to line up for the "music cycle", for example, to start going in the right direction. I just feel like culture has fundamentally shifted--fragmented so much that even if the usual demand that would precede a cycle change appears, we'll only get a knock off, bare minimum facsimile. The companies will do just enough to find another short-sighted formula and beat the horse dead. But the other side of this... supply. The cycle isn't a creativity cycle. It's an economic one. There's amazing music being made by amazing artists today. Perhaps more now than ever. Companies have just decided it makes more economic sense to target the lowest common denominator when it comes to taste. I don't see that changing. So I honestly don't think this is a cycle so much as a natural progression of unfettered capitalism. And before anyone accuses me of being a communist, I'm not. But a true free market requires transparency, feedback, and an institutional/individual bullwark of more altruistic values pushing back as a counter to our worst tendencies. That is missing today. Our choices are as powerless as ever partly because so few huge companies control so many "seemingly" competing options. Couple that with the insane abilities for optimizing short-term profits. We could have decided we value long-term stability, higher wages, etc. from our companies rather than malignant growth. I will go down with the ship believing there's a way to make it work without burning down the system, but I digress. Anyway, yeah, I'm worried about our culture in general, but not about not being able to hear new, wonderful music. It's clear to everyone that the medium for music delivery has changed. Cassettes? CDs? Vinyl is back. Neat. The point is shifts happen there and it's accepted as a reality. I think we just need to realize the medium of music discovery has changed as well. Feels like we should think about major labels, national charts, TikTok, etc. as being as antiquated for quality music discovery as 8-tracks are for playback, and realize we're going to have to put in some of our own effort to find great music. I've found some absolutely amazing tracks in the past few years once I decided to spend a little time searching. Songs that are as meaningful to me as anything I've ever listened to.

[@robjanicke]

Nothing can match the human emotion that music creates inside of us. AI is a real current and future threat. We need to pay close attention to how it’s manipulating the industry and make sure we never lose the authenticity that we create as human artists. This conversation is a must watch/listen for anyone who disagrees or doesn’t understand what real music means for culture and society.

[@chadgaliano330]

Thank you both. I thoroughly enjoyed and was enlightened by this conversation. The importance of what you are doing cannot be understated.