The STATE of Spider-Man Comics | The Comics Pals Episode 403

[@chriscoolmoreno]

Reading 616 Spider-Man right now is like watching a car crash on the side of the road, you hope they are OK but you kinda want to see the destruction anyways.

[@TheComicsPals]

Are you a reader of the book?

[@IzzysIssues]

Love every addition to the PalsVerse! Powerhouse Paul fits in great with this team

[@rickrivers2021]

The crazy thing is that iconic and memorable Spider-man stories used to be pretty constant. There's a gap between Conway and Stern for about 5 years where the title was kinda just treading water, but the 15 years before and the 10 years after had iconic moment after iconic moment. The Clone Saga broke that cycle. Spider-man comics have been mid at best for most of what's followed. JMS and Slott had their moments, but frankly they had 7-8 years apiece and maybe 3 stories that mattered each. And BND, Spencer, Beyond, and Wells are all just limbo periods for the character Marvel used to push the limits with Spider-man, it was a cutting edge title. But since the collosal failure of the Clone Saga, the company philosophy had changed and now Spider-man has become the fast food of the company, if you want something deep storytelling or thought provoking character development you gotta go read Daredevil instead

[@LtDanHasNoLegs]

There is only one book that I will buy monthly regardless of creative team or story and that is ASM. It’s the book that got me into comics. I started with ASM around the mid-300’s and will always collect it. It also helps that my son loves spiderman, so I want to keep the run going for him. There have been many spiderman ASM runs that I really didn’t like, like OMD and the current Wells run, but I will grab it anyway. I know that it doesn’t support the idea of voicing your opinion with your dollar, but it is what it is.

[@TheComicsPals]

That's fair. And we talked about it on the show but I'm sure you're not alone in that position.

[@seanheston8331]

You need infinite crisis . Identity crisis . Before 52 . I love 52 . Probably my favorite comic story.

[@TheComicsPals]

Looking forward to reading all of it!

[@seanheston8331]

Its very dense, just be patient. I cant wait to hear you all discuss it ​@TheComicsPals

[@at9648]

I would like Marvel to try new voices. Since 2008 we’ve had the same handful of writers rotating in and out. Spencer was the outliner and the one I liked the most. No more BND era writers, find a modern voice. I would also like a soap opera like (like the 80’s or early BND) else “events” and mystery boxes.

[@TheComicsPals]

What creators would you like to see on the book?

[@at9648]

I thought for a second we’d be getting Joshua Williamson. That would get me to start picking the book up again. Since he’s at GI Joe now, maybe Ryan Parrott from the Massive Verse.

[@Mikey.N5714]

​@at9648 after hearing the pals suggest ryan north and reading his ff run ; if he got the book I would be excited. Also bendis would make it a must buy for me

[@chriscoolmoreno]

Disney wants ASM to match with the MCU and recent cartoons to sell merchandise. They can't really profit off of Miles so they double down with Peter being a kid over and over again in cartoons. New Ultimate Spider-Man is kinda like fan service like renew your vows was in 2014 and 2015.

[@TheComicsPals]

They got rid of Peter's marriage to MJ and all the progress he'd made over 20 years in the late 2000's, far before Spider-Man's MCU debut.

[@kidfantastic]

This would have been a good one for Sal to guest on

[@TheComicsPals]

Agreed! We love any chance we get to chat with Sal.

[@tr3yjproductions]

I’ve debated commenting something like this, and sincerely don’t mean to be dramatic. Sometimes I feel like the pals’ ideas are dismissed too quickly. I think Tyler’s point about social media giving different access to creators is an agreed upon sentiment from all entertainment industries and in culture studies. Even ten years ago, the proliferation of smart technology wasn’t the same, and the power of most people (even some impoverished) having computers in their pockets is relevant to the discussion. I’ve also felt Marco’s comments get shut down in previous videos. Sometimes it just takes me out of the joy of comic discussions because it can feel blunt. I think about how some of my teachers would support student’s guesses during class while still suggesting they disagreed, and that energy would make me happier (just cuz I don’t want to critique without suggesting). I do just enjoy the pals talking, and that’s why I wanted to ramble about this.

[@TheComicsPals]

Thanks for the feedback!

[@rickrivers2021]

Yeah, ASM doesn't sell base on how good it is. Its an addiction. I don't think sales show most readers feelings on the book. I think sales show that most readers can't handle the withdrawels for long before getting sucked right back in

[@TheComicsPals]

That’s very subjective. I really enjoy ASM. I don’t go on social media and make a big stink about it like some people who dislike it do, but I don’t think you can look at industry leading sales and chalk up strictly to addiction.

[@rickrivers2021]

​​​@@TheComicsPals Just bc some people enjoy it, that doesn't mean other people can't call it bad. Only with ASM do the defenders spend more time delegitmizing people's right to make criticisms rather than countering by outlining why they disagree with the criticisms And obviously I'm not saying it sells strictly bc of addiction. There's not one kind of fan, there's many, my point was mainly why it continues to sell even when such a vast amount of people (I'd argue a majority) are frustersted. Even then there's probably more defenders of the current run than total readers on most books. Spider-man is also on a totally different scale than other books too though. Being a top 5 seller every month is a given, the question is whether there's an audience being left on the table. USM seems to indicate there is

[@Boushh420]

I feel like with the tease of Joe Kelly being the next ASM writer we a perpetually stuck in Brand New Day. Sans Nick Spencer ASM will have just been the Brand New Days guys since its started. Its like purgatory lol

[@TheComicsPals]

I personally don’t think Joe Kelly is coming on for a long run, but yeah you’re definitely right.

[@superluigiac]

Really disagree that a forum in the 90s can compare to the access social media gives to artist today.

[@TheComicsPals]

That wasn’t what I was saying at all. I was refuting the idea that the access and the vitriol didn’t exist prior to modern social media.

[@NH-pq4by]

The best selling book that no one is talking about or likes. 🧐 I'm convinced Sony is buying ASM every month, to keep it the #1 seller, bc they have an interest in the IP. And Marvel is using editorial to keep it terrible because they are petty.

[@TheComicsPals]

Quite a theory.

[@sevensvn5391]

Apologies for the potentially idiotic question, but at 1:42:59 , if the concern is people's jobs then wouldn't it be more of an issue of society needing to better accommodate people's transition to other professions once their current skills potentially become obsolete rather than an issue with the technology itself?

[@TheComicsPals]

It's more than jobs. Jobs is a huge factor, but it's also about what people want. Thus far, we've seen a huge pushback across the board when companies have tried to integrate AI into their creative process in a way that eliminates the human element. People want to know their entertainment came from another human mind, not something spit out by an AI.

[@byronschexnayder875]

💥🌠❤ WOWZERS ❤🌠💥

[@mvdwraptor7983]

Saying that they're doing something right because sales are solid is tenuous. The comment thread has people that will buy it no matter what, and plenty of other's will too. Isn't AvX hated but did bonkers numbers? 'bad books' do crazy numbers a lot. To question if a book can even be bad because it sells well when subjectively bad things sell all the time (not just comics). I just wish asm had higher storytelling aspirations than to just be moderately enjoyable slop. Have some substance. Try to say something about your characters, have them evolve, do something. JMD is still putting out spider-minis and best believe that I'm picking up shadow of the green goblin in trade I know he has something he wants to say about the characters. Just disappointing that so many other characters get critically acclaimed runs. Maybe that's why, even with USM having a slow pace, that I'm sticking with it. Because I know hickman has something worthwhile he wants to do

[@TheComicsPals]

The thing you're leaving out is that it is your opinion that ASM isn't good. It's my opinion that it is good. Why are you right just because you think it, but I have numbers to back up that people are enjoying it enough to buy it?

[@mvdwraptor7983]

@@TheComicsPals 1. Didn't one of you say in one of your new 52 overview pods/streams that AvX was destroying numbers but you thought it wasn't good? Additionally, plenty of people don't buy books that are absolutely amazing (I am guilty of this too) does that mean they aren't good enough? That's absurd. Thor love and thunder made almost 900 million at the box office? Does that mean it was a good movie? Same for spider-man 3. There might be a positive correlation with sales and perceived quality, but there's too many counterexamples to say it's concrete. Which is why a discussion of the quality of the book itself was warranted 2. While good is a subjective thing, I believe the bar is a lot lower for spider-man than other premier titles like batman, daredevil, X-Men etc. I'm a fairly new reader to comics, but for the seminal Spidey runs I've seen, I'd be going to Roger stern/defalco 80s. Peter David 80s, JMD spectacular, early jms. I just think ASM could be doing more (without suffering any sales drop) and am disappointed. I don't think that's unreasonable. Anyways I've just got on to your guys channel and am really enjoying it. Even if I don't always agree

[@TheComicsPals]

@@mvdwraptor7983 I sure did say that. I would also say that it was a very novel thing that appealed to a wide swath of readers, many who enjoyed it. My opinion doesn't = fact! Plenty of people don't buy books that are good. What I'm saying is that because you personally don't like ASM, it seems as though you've decided that it's bad, and that people buying it must be buying it for some other reason than they enjoy it. But here I am, buying it since issue 1 and really love it! It's completely valid for you to not like ASM. I don't agree that the book could be objectively bad and it would still sell as well as it does this deep into the run. Anyhow, I appreciate you listening! I don't take the back and forth personally, disagreement is cool.

[@thebluewind5733]

I feel their needs to be a half and half deal when it comes to how to handle Peter Parker Spider-Man. OMD is a stain to past readers,because it's the metaphoric bad ending to Peter and Mary Jane's relationship,marriage and long standing character development. Yes Spider-Man sells because of his marketability but Peter growing has been stuck in a cycle that it makes the past feel meaningless. Yes Spider-Man always has challenges for him to overcome,but he doesn't always suffer, Aunt May and MJ has been one of the many things in his life that keeps him from falling back into despair. However the writers has to have enough freedom to do strong stories that keeps the emotion and adventurous nature of how Spider-Man deals with things and for having Miles as a partner in crime fighting would have the average for both their books the Spider-family concept is a good idea but keep it as a small group rather than a army of Spider-People. Give him a relaunch of Parker Industries but make it a smaller scale company, like a mom and pop shop and have him struggle to maintain this version of this business, show us a twist that Mayday of 616 is alive and is a teenager due to her not being affected by OMD,have Doc Ock regain his memory of Superior and continue that character development, making him an anti-hero that has an on and off rivalry with Peter as Peter wants to find a middle ground with Otto due to their history. Have Harry become a new kind of Goblin but want to be a coin flip of Norman's Green Goblin but tetters on villain and hero. Give Peter a backbone again like his classic personality during the 80s and 90s runs, show Peter's roasting his foes as he fights and have him and Miles bounce off each other's banter busting each other's chops and complementing at the same time, you know, like friends. This is off the top of my head. Dismissing disappointment of ASM fans that want the mentor Pete who's Married,a parant and a Superhero is a bit fastidious. But I do understand it's seems annoying but to most, it's passion. We need balance.

[@TheComicsPals]

I totally sympathize with the feelings of readers who aren't happy with ASM. I think Marvel's giving those readers what they want in a way via USM, but I truly don't think we'll ever see those kinds of sweeping changes happen in ASM again. Marvel will always eventually want to rubberband Peter, and the audience reaction to OMD taught Marvel a lesson, I think: don't rock the boat. Do just enough to keep the book selling at #1.

[@thebluewind5733]

@@TheComicsPals Yeah and I think that's is why we here in this scenario, we're in a overstuffed boat, not a ship.