The Stormtrooper Paradox

The Force Awakens does what no other movie in the long running Star Wars franchise has even done before: it humanizes Stormtroopers. Strangely the filmmakers seem unaware of the rather profound implications their new narrative has for the rest of their cinematic universe.
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CREDITS
Writer/Producer: Jonathan McIntosh
Motion Graphics: Jonathan McIntosh
Logo Design: Justin McIntosh
Music: Jonathan Mann
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[@DileepNow]

Stormtroopers are all nice guys, they miss their shots on purpose so as not to kill anyone.

[@ShadowReaper-pu2hx]

The First Order is clearly a humanitarian regime.

[@underworlds2794]

there aint NO way this got 1 reply

[@entity_of_the_cosmos]

@@underworlds2794 lmaooooo literally

[@eddiecoger1082]

brilliant

[@aljon5947]

Ik this comment section weird… most old top comments have no replies.

[@snapperl]

Mildly amusing that Finn became an expert marksman after he took off the stormtrooper outfit.

[@underworlds2794]

this is very confusing

[@heroichitsuji]

maybe the helmets have poor visibility

[@_aWiseMan]

@@heroichitsuji that is the canon reason lol

[@rayhan4502]

@@_aWiseMan is it really? i dont know much about star wars

[@Zalwalloo]

Because he wasn't shooting at Jedi or people with plot armor

[@callumpears1523]

Finn defects because his stormtrooper friend is killed. So what does he do? Kills more of his old stormtrooper friends!

[@Zeta_9mole_rats]

No no he has a point

[@jonahcody]

But it’s not black and white like that. If you were part of the nazi army, watched your friend die and then realized what your army was doing, wouldn’t you fight back? Not that you’d be happy to kill other soldiers but it’s also necessary in war, especially when the greater good is in question. What your saying is implying everything in life is black and white when really everything is grey.

[@partymix1997]

​@@jonahcody if the film showed him struggling in killing them (emotionally) that's another thing but being happy nay proud to kill them, that's completely different he was ECSTATIC TO KILL THEM

[@gaelsirois4034]

😊

[@lucenalucena1547]

@@jonahcody It is completely necessary and understandable that he kills his colleagues in combat, what is not, however, is that he feels absolutely nothing while does the thing

[@herrwagnerianer1739]

The greatest plothole in my opinion is that Finn has no problems whatsoever to kill his former brothers-in-arms.

[@brunoheggli2888]

I was shocked,and iI dont overanaliese blockbuster movies much!

[@DrewLSsix]

What makes you think there's any brotherly connection at all?

[@everydayman123]

​@@DrewLSsix well right at the beggining u can see how sad he was for his friend stormtrooper dying. That was literraly the reason he has rebelled.

[@Carnomus]

@@everydayman123I’m pretty sure that was one of his few squad-mates or something

[@oscarosullivan4513]

Aren’t storm troopers in the first and third trilogy drawn from the general population

[@SamuraiPie8111]

the only thing that made me feel weird was when Finn and Poe escape from the star destroyer. the WHOLE reason Finn doesn't want to be a stormtrooper is so he doesn't have to kill people. So what does he do? immediately starts killing literally everyone. he KNEW those stormtroopers. He trained with them from childhood, and Finn is a pretty funny charismatic guy, whos to say his fellow trooper aren't as well?

[@IstandwithIsrael236]

no replys lol 25k likes

[@Kalashboy420]

1 reply lol 5 likes @@IstandwithIsrael236

[@TracyGreenwood]

Why is nobody talking about the fact that Poe killed Finn's friend, which puts him over the edge so he joins the resistance and becomes best friends with Poe? See 8:27

[@brianstorm5488]

But perhaps the problem for Finn isn’t so much who killed him (if it even registers amidst the hell-fire,) and thank god we’re spared a boring revenge tale, but him realizing they are all faceless pawns used by the FO, and maybe those with faces, including Poe, take the more righteous side. The blood (beautiful and meaningful imagery) gives Finn a “face,” which is functional for setting him apart just visually as well.

[@operator8014]

Maybe they weren't really friends, and Finn was just shocked at the realization of their true mortality. They often walk straight into battle against impossible odds, it seems reasonable that they would be brainwashed to see themselves as part of an invincible and overwhelming force. A lot of U.S. soldiers are brought face-to-face with that and some of them... can't handle it.

[@jaycranston9281]

The true storm trooper paradox is 'what happens if a stormtrooper (who always misses) fires at a Star Trek red shirt (who always dies)'

[@ladywaffle2210]

Easy. Stormtrooper misses every shot. Red Shirt has a heart attack and dies anyway.

[@labrat810]

Similar outcome to Lasgun vs. Shield.

[@nicholasleon5584]

I find it ironic that what starts Finn's journey of redemption is Poe killing Finn's friend, and of course, the tragic irony of that is that they (Poe and Finn) become friends as a long-term result of Poe's action.

[@sanderflop]

The needless death of his friend shuck him out of his illusion but I don't doubt that the massacre of the villagers contributed to it.

[@Folker46590]

I always thought that was stupid. Someone shoots and kills my friend, I am NOT going to be their friend a few hours later. It made Finn look shallow to me, like he was Poe's friend only as long as he got something out of it.

[@grawlix-man463]

​@@Folker46590Honestly he would've been more interesting if he WAS just trying to get something out of it, I mean I'd be totally into a former stormtrooper who, while still a rebel, uses and manipulates people to get what he wants, but that's leaning far too much into anti-hero for Disney to work with.

[@Folker46590]

@@grawlix-man463 I, like many thinking people, hate what they have done to Storm Troopers. The first movie (ep 4) made it clear the ST's were bad asses. They were like the Sardaukar of Dune, or the Royal Marines of our world, people you do not want to f*ck with. But over a few years, thanks to Lucas being himself (I. e. stupid) and poorly made video games, the ST's became a joke. They are the Keystone cops who can't shoot, stand in the open waiting to be shot, and are considered idiots by everyone else in the Star Wars universe. Seeing them on screen now means nothing to me, because they mean nothing to anyone. They're not a threat, just targets. I hate it.

[@DreadBirate]

Hmmmm Kidnapping babies and making them completely believe in your cause.....i wonder where I've heard that before in star wars..... *cough* The Jedi *cough* *cough*

[@Nyarlathoteplol]

Yeah. I can buy a turncoat stormtrooper who kills his former comrades without a second thought, AND I can buy a turncoat stormtrooper who had his change of heart after losing a comrade in battle, but I CANNOT buy those two being the same character. At least, not without a serious arc in between those two states.

[@DWUnkown]

long endured and hidden trauma.

[@austingreen1274]

@@DWUnkownNo sir. I’m sure he had that but the movie gets no breaks for giving no effort into bridging those two states.

[@DWUnkown]

@@austingreen1274 it was a missed chance to to show someone turn. too artistic for Disney.

[@michapawlak2283]

The movies basically treat stormtroopers the same way it treated separatist droids

[@corhydron111]

Why does Finn speak in an American accent though? I mean he's been raised by the Empire who all speak with a British accent, so why would he stick out like that? And John Boyega is British so I have no idea why they did that.

[@c4productions951]

The First Order is not the same as the Empire, and also stormtroopers have never been shown to have British accents. Only the imperial brass have.

[@birdiewolf3497]

They just liked his American accent better than his English one.

[@teenybeepboop]

americans good british bad in american movies

[@derekr1282]

@@teenybeepboop I think the argument here is that stormtroopers are "human," not that they're "good." Also, you might be interested in looking up the deleted scenes from Return of the Jedi were Jerjerrod hesitates in giving the order to fire the Death Star on Endor. It's a good example of Imperial officers being humanized, and it's a shame it was cut from the final film. I always assumed that Imperial officers' accents worked much that same way in Star Wars as received pronunciation does in reality. That is, it was a semi-artificial accent that the educated class were trained to speak with to separate themselves from the "common folk." Hence, the socially-superior officers spoke with this accent while the socially-inferior stormtroopers spoke with a standard American accent.

[@seabob337]

I think you’re asking a lot from a guy whose two entries are meh remakes of the original film and ROTJ

[@grunt1688]

there should be a Netflix show that tells the pov of a group of stormtroopers

[@Crackheadcentral2188]

Wasn’t “bad batch” just that

[@quickscopez573]

This comment was before bad batch was announced

[@Crackheadcentral2188]

@@quickscopez573 o h I just say the 5 years ago marker

[@Mordalon]

My favorite example of a show that does this is Avatar: The Last Airbender. For the entirety of the series, the Fire Nation army is the primary antagonistic threat, with it's soldiers all given intimidating masks with no individuality as they get beat around by the dozens. Over the coarse of the series however, the Fire Nation is humanized in many different ways. What helps the show avoid the Stormtrooper Paradox is that the characters almost always fight non-lethally, with the main character explicitly stated to be a pacifist. The enemy soldiers, instead of being killed, are generally left just battered, bruised, and often knocked out.

[@seaturtleslastname8286]

Unless Aang can conjure nonlethal avalanches or freeze people UNDER solid ice without them suffocating. I'm pretty sure he is a mass murdering cult leader pretending to be a pacifist when it suits him.

[@jesuslovespee]

yeah, finn's inexplicably instantaneous gusto for murdering the only family he's really known was a tragic miscalculation by tbe writers and gave me no choice but to see him as someone with such severe PTSD that his killings at this point are pathological and he'll fight for whoever will help him survive and advance his body count.

[@abejohnson1590]

He wasn’t written as a survivor of conditioning very well. It’s like he’s a stormtrooper just to introduce him and then there’s little to no relevance from then on

[@austingreen1274]

@@abejohnson1590That’s exactly right. By the time he meets Rey, he’s charismatic, quippy, and handsome. Could there be any traits less associated from someone who was kidnapped from childhood and trained only to kill and follow orders while wearing a mask? When he asks Rey if she “has a cute boyfriend”, it’s funny but it ages poorly given the character background.

[@SergeantScorps]

This video would probably have been better had it noted that The Clone Wars more or less does this same thing with the Clone Troopers, if so much better. They become endearing to us, the Jedi and the people they save only for Order 66 to show all that is literally switched off at the utterance of a trigger phrase, turning them into things not unlike the unfeeling, unthinking droids they'd been fighting not moments ago.

[@deathwish-gg8wz]

And even then some of those bonds were stronger than the code word.

[@GuardsmanBass]

I feel like Finn would make a lot more sense as a character if we knew what Stormtroopers were like off-duty - "what are they like between missions?" Do they have their own streak of black gallows humor about their work, etc?

[@tsukigalleta]

It always bothered me how Finn states he promised himself he won't kill people, and yet he doesn't hesitate to kill stormtroopers from the very beginning

[@JaiJai177]

Storm troopers are killers. He’s killing killers. Don’t be daft

[@pancytryna9378]

@@JaiJai177 People will really make up any excuse to defend bad plot huh?

[@austingreen1274]

@@JaiJai177I wish this could go without saying… But Finn, one of our protagonist, is a storm trooper. 🤓 The movie instantly wakes us up to the fact that storm troopers are kidnapped, brainwashed people by simply introducing Finn… and then it scraps it by acting like he’s the unique regular dude of the bunch.😂

[@timbirdie8180]

​@@JaiJai177for a normal person that is a perfect reason but he is not normal. He was unwilling to kill as a stormtrooper people who are neat to kill. He could killed later but it should been forced too Cuz as a trooper he struggled so hard against his orders since his only order is to kill by his officers who raised him childhood. Telling him to do something against conscience. He couldn't do it for the people he was expected it to do it. for now imagine liking those same people. Eventually he could go kill frenzy since the flip might make him hate them more than the average rebel true but not within ten minutes of leaving the first order. He should been crying as poe was forced to kill troopers to escape. He should tried to and failed at first. For the rest of us killing killers isn't easy but believable but for finn it isn't since he's a pacifist member of the killing group

[@xgardenofedenx]

What's ironic to me is that the Clone Troopers, literally clones with strict "programming" to adhere to, were given more personality and humanity than the Storm Troopers, who are all complete individuals except indoctrinated by intense training but no 'switch' to control them fully as is clear in Finn's case.

[@adrboe3027]

Wait, did you rewatch the entire movie just to count on acreen deaths of stormtroopers?

[@PopCultureDetective]

Yep.

[@dojokonojo]

Have you watched the Clone Wars series? A lot of the clones in the series developed their own personality and preferences from working with the Jedi and there is a conflict of unquestioning conformity vs free will in many episodes.

[@StarWarsExplained]

I totally agree with your assessment, especially in the films. But I wonder if this will be a plot point in future films. The books and comics have been making it a point to humanize stormtroopers and the rest of the Empire. That could have been in preparation for Finn, but maybe we'll be seeing something bigger. Maybe Finn's defection will inspire more to follow suit. But when it comes to the Force Awakens alone, I think you're spot on.

[@PopCultureDetective]

Thanks. I hope the next two movies in the series explore this in more detail. Perhaps Finn goes on a mission to recruit more defectors with valuable intel for the resistance?

[@argella1300]

God I hope so. I've read a bunch of fanfic and seen a bunch of other fanworks that use the premise of Finn's desertion as the impetus for the First Order falling.

[@ShoRyuBarbie]

I don't think they'll follow up on it. To me it felt very much like: "Wouldn't it be cool if one of the heroes was a Stormtrooper? How can we make that happen?" The Stormtrooper with the big cattle prod calling Finn a traitor served as a way to make it alright again to kill Stormtroopers by the dozens, because they wanted to recapture the action-adventure tone of the original trilogy. It feels very much like they didn't think about the consequences of making the Stormtroopers basically like Game of Thrones' Unsullied.

[@Alayne89]

I think Star Wars Rebels is slowly starting to show the humanity of people within the military of the empire. We are seeing high ranking spies, and their reasons for assisting the rebellion. We are seeing the students within the Empire academies, and their values and fears, and even some of those students joining the Rebellion. Rogue One showed a tiny snippet of the humanity of storm troopers, such as discussing something being phased out and replaced with a newer model. Rogue One has been my favourite movie so far because it showed the dark side within the Rebellion; violent extremism, murder, betrayal, disobeying direct orders, death. So I think the next Rogue movies will slowly begin to show the goodness of the Empire. I think that Hollywood struggles without clear definition of who the good and the bad are. It struggles if the Good Guys are obvious good guys, and it struggles if the Bad Guys aren't evil. The Empire was highly successful for 19 years before the assassination of the Emperor. In areas of the galaxy not controlled by the Empire, the community was controlled by crime lords, such as Jabba, and the people were impoverished. We should also acknowledge that the Rebellion was a small movement. So was the rest of the galaxy content with the Empire running things? Or was it a small movement because the rest of the galaxy was too scared? We don't know, because we see things from the perspective of the rebellion. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

[@veronicatr320]

Imagine actually believing that the US starts wars over FREEDOM!1!1!! and not the ultra rich's business interests lmao Sure they've resulted in some relatively small extremist groups that do pose a problem (to the local population, mostly), but- really?

[@squamish4244]

I thought Finn switched from brainwashed Stormtrooper to funny guy a little too quickly. A few scenes where his First Order conditioning is evident would have been good.

[@elheber]

"War is sometimes a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is *always* an evil." - President Jimmy Carter

[@KaletheQuick]

Gotta have faceless mooks to cut down like grass. What else would we use? Droids? IMPOSSIBLE!

[@robertwang2830]

It's obvious why they did this. The execs at Disney believe that the best way to make money is to "play it safe" by relying on nostalgia. In the original trilogy stormtroopers were drones to be shot at and they could not deviate from that even if it means contradicting their own movie. The force awakens is probably the best example of a movie that's blindsided by the need to be profitable.

[@nohaxmeh576]

"Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Oh Obi-Wan...

[@codyconnor6981]

Honestly Finn's character makes no sense at all. Realistically he should be either incapable or have extreme difficulty displaying any sort of emotion and empathy. It specifically says in the new canon that first order troopers are trained from the moment they can walk to be soldiers and nothing else. If that is the case then Finn's mind would've naturally suppressed his ability to feel emotion and empathy as a coping mechanism, because his whole life is surrounded by violence, suffering, death, and struggle.

[@kyrieshark]

I would love seeing this explored in another 'Rogue One'-esque spinoff movie.

[@lgmmrm]

Just once I want to see a main character in a SW film kill a stormtrooper/bad guy and actually have a hard time with it. Not necessarily a breakdown like Anakin post-sand-people massacre, but just a pause, a troubled stare at their fresh kill, a soft tear in their eyes, or really any kind of mental anguish over killing a sentient being.

[@timbirdie8180]

For a new character that makes sense for a veteran no, cuz a veteran while having PTSD very likely is way to dark for star wars but the hesitation is okay. Thing is a veteran killer doesn't hesitate. Unless the kill triggers something that said Luke should had a pause in blowing up the ships. With Han telling him to give up( not cuz real men kill but cuz Hans being a dick) but George Lucas wanted to play his sci fantasy safe and I do prefer safe. Still he had Luke's family be burned alive he could had Luke either be scared to kill at least once or happy to kill out of anger just a bit of darkness wouldn't hurt since he made His family get burnt alive and that isn't kid friendly

[@robbiecoombes1649]

They should do a Star Wars story from the perspective of a stormtrooper that truly believes what he is doing is right

[@chloeshowalter3728]

This reminds me of how Bodhi in Rogue One brings another face to humanize Imperial soldiers albeit as a cargo pilot. Maybe they'll continue with this pattern of humanizing the "enemy" (unwilling soldiers stolen from their family and forced to fight for a cause they don't believe in) in episode 8 and 9.

[@Nathan-tz5fr]

I think Finns story arch would've been stronger had he remained a Stormtrooper until the third act of the film.

[@JessmanChicken86]

*Finn's

[@sabercircle7634]

*arc

[@seatbelttruck]

It was "Star Wars: The Clone Wars" that changed my understanding first. When I saw the prequels as a kid, the clones were "those bad guys who become Storm Troopers." Seeing "The Clone Wars" as an adult, with the troopers being humanized, individualized, and heroic made it so I couldn't see the mooks in movies, including the Storm Troopers, as faceless nobodies ever again. And I think that's a good thing, even if it does result in a lot of wincing while watching action sequences nowadays. ...Maybe you should give the series a watch and do a follow-up video? Though to really do it justice, you'd need to discuss "Rebels" too.

[@kennethsatria6607]

They were so close to doing a Clone Wars essentially in giving the faceless soldiers humanity but completely forgot like minutes after that Finn's killing similarly indoctrinated soldiers who he's trained with.

[@paulaburrows8660]

I have to rethink my childhood and the terrible things that I did to my Star Wars Stormtrooper action figures

[@SomeBeans]

Imagine the mental impact of being a stormtrooper, kidnapped as a child, being forced to work for bad guys, witnessing the deaths of so many comrades and civilians, realising what you've done, joining the resistance only to have to kill the people you've known your whole life, I feel so sorry for stormtroopers.

[@oscarosullivan4513]

Aren’t storm troopers in the first and third trilogy drawn from the general population

[@timbirdie8180]

I'd feel sorry for the ones who realize and the kids they once were not the normal ones lol. Finn would be tragic if he was done right but captain phasma isn't tragic at all. She knew what she didn't and didn't care.

[@timbirdie8180]

​@@oscarosullivan4513They were recruited during the empire by fanatic loyalists to the empire at a young age and then conditioned to like it more out of choice and the sequels have the First order kidnap the kids from the get go cuz they can't afford to recruit just train up babies... Messed up I know

[@ciudadanodeunpaislibre9922]

I don’t know if anyone else has posted this, but IMAGINE if the sequel trilogy was about finn and not rey, a jedi who didn’t know he had powers since he was under the rule of the new empire

[@PitNeex]

fantastic idea! I always have thought that Finn would play a greater role. There are some remains of cut plot lines for him here and there(what did he want to talk about with Ray???), but they didn't risk getting away from nostalgia and fan service....

[@ominousintrusivethoughts3947]

This is what made thr clone wars so unique, the consistent focus on the clones who beforehand, seemed like even more mindless drones

[@gavind1363]

Basically, Disney gave us a likable turncoat for the sake of having a likable turncoat. Nothing more, and that's really underwhelming.

[@rukiller3]

Remember though, the Jedi take children and bleach their minds as well. I'll ask the old question, "Who are worse?"

[@timbirdie8180]

At least the Jedi try to make them good guys tho and it usually works out minus Anakin and the fact they are afraid to cold, tho it is still terrible nonethless

[@episodenull]

JJ Abrams doesn't understand anything past surface level. He's demonstrated that he doesn't understand the implications of his own work in his Star Trek movies as well. Very few of his story decisions carry any weight. Abrams reminds me of a more subtle version of Roger Ebert's comment about Battlefield Earth:. "the director has learned from other, better movies that directors sometimes tilt their cameras, but he has not leaned why." Abrams has learned from other, better Star Wars movies that blood is symbolic and that Stormtroopers get killed en masse, but he has not learned why.

[@BungieStudios]

Thank you for getting the Stormtrooper/Clone distinction correct. So many people speaking from expertise or authority get that simple thing wrong about the movies, calling them all clones.

[@brainplay8060]

The whole "stole babies to make soldiers" never really went well with me. That's just setting the New Order up for another civil war or internal rebellion. Considering that the original Empire had volunteers but lore treated them as disposable, it makes not sense for this new breed of stolen kids to be treated well. They're no different than fodder. Even worse is that Finn knew he was kidnapped. Again, that's a recipe for disaster. It's like they're trying too hard to make the New Order unlikeable.

[@timbirdie8180]

Lol it might be way to much, Iikd the empire or the first order being evil but the empire had recruitment to be realistic and survive.

[@TheMellowFilmmaker]

I noticed this too. Finn was a Stormtrooper who was motivated to change by the death of another Stormtrooper, and he had absolutely no problem with killing Stormtroopers.

[@keiitano3857]

I see many people saying that when Finn sees his “friend” die, that it changes him, and that it’s quite ironic that Finn would go onto kill Stormtroopers even though that a death of a Stormtrooper was his moralizing moment. But, what if that sudden realization when his friend dies is not that this is wrong, but rather that he is very likely to die as well, and in an attempt to save himself, he flees. Maybe that moment was more selfish than selfless. With that outlook, it kinda makes more sense, but even then the movie is still confusing, and no matter what the movie was terribly written. 😂

[@rhett1029]

Finn at beginning : oh no stormtrooper die Finn later: *personally fucking stabs a stormtrooper which is a extremely personal way of killing someone without missing a beat*

[@Mega-Brick]

Thus the problem with all action movies. That's why I personally prefer television series over movies; way more time for development of plot, characters, and themes.

[@futurefuturetrunks7863]

We need content just about the struggles of being a storm trooper in really tired of jedi vs sith and we need to expand on things that aren't typical for star wars

[@MrWiibetrollin]

"Then that means the fall of every stormtrooper represents the death of the possibility of redemption the possibility of another Finn" You make a compelling argument but...*Blows up Death Star*

[@mastermarkus5307]

After reading some of the books, I really wish that Star Wars, particularly the new series, didn't have to be condensed into just three movies because the story as a whole isn't really the simplistic "good versus evil" of the original trilogy anymore. Characters like Finn really suffer from not having real character arcs, and you miss out on a lot of backstory - like, I think General Hux and Phasma are great characters, but you'd have to read some books to understand why I think that. The First Order as a whole gets boiled down to "evil" without any explanation of what they actually _do_. Like, as far as the movies show us, they're basically bad because they kill a lot of people, but because of limited screen time we don't really get to know _why_ they do that.

[@levarmy4339]

There really should’ve been a scene where Finn doesn’t want to kill other stormtroopers, and is forced to, or something. Could’ve been some cool character struggles set up from it all

[@davids2254]

Wow, I forgot how much i enjoyed the idea of a stormtrooper becoming a main character when this movie came out but forgot just as easily as the script how little it meant overall : p that scene when Finn and Poe escape and joyfully shoot down all those stormtroopers and Finn doesnt even show a semblence of remorse or thought is such a contrast to his introduction that it kind of ruins the whole movie for me now. Thanks.

[@RoTenken]

Not so fun blasting around white bucketheads now, is it? It's easier to pull the trigger when you don't know the person or better yet, it isn't human at all. Great job!

[@rafi7126]

Good video! The humanizing, yet dehumanizing of Stormtroopers was strange and awful. People bash the prequels and sometimes the Clone Wars show (which is a great show btw), but they don't get confused on whether the clones are actually people or not. Finn deserted because a friend died. Yet later he has no problems shooting Stormies who could have been him, who might have been his friends. He knows why they're like this, they aren't some faceless enemy, Maybe it would have made sense or at least explained if he was shown having a crisis or moral dilema. Even just a couple lines of dialouge where he voiced his discomfort over it, but deemed it neccesary to protect his new friends and the cause he now fights for.

[@oscarosullivan4513]

Aren’t storm troopers in the first and third trilogy drawn from the general population

[@riverjp4255]

5:53 you can see in the bottom corner a holo of a young Finn!

[@KEVMAN7987]

Wasn't Han Solo an Imperial soldier that rebelled and was washed out? He saved Chewie from slavery or something? Whatever, we'll find out in 2018.

[@The214thRabidFangirl]

On AO3 there are a lot of fan fics that revolve around the idea of storm troopers rebelling and joining the reasistance; some with Finn as a talking point, some without.

[@radicalmallard]

Yoooo a movie about a group of storm troopers overcoming their conditioning and rebelling would be amazing. There's so much possibility and room for fresh ideas in that, it sucks that it probably won't be explored at all. Looking into that messy gray moral area of war that's ignored in Star Wars could be huge

[@timbirdie8180]

I agree but why do people think we didn't have greyness. Luke blew up a deathstar full of millions of not billions of people. Yeah it was for the greater good but he massacred tons of imperialists. Tho it is presented as a good thing

[@radicalmallard]

@timbirdie8180 I appreciate a reply to a comment I left 6 years ago lol I agree that that was morally gray but i don't think they ever really addressed it, which would be the interesting part. Like actually showing Luke feel conflicted about what he had done after realizing that he was also murdering ppl. I guess they tried to sort of explore some of those ideas a bit in the last trilogy, with Kylo Ren being more of a "conflicted" character but I don't think they did it successfully. Dont get me started on the sequel trilogy tho 🫠 I actually really liked the force awakens, they had a lot of interesting stories they couldve explored with it but decided to make the worst choices! I still shed a tear thinking about how Finn and Poe could've been such cool characters and the trio could've been so interesting but they decided to split them up and not develop their characters and just do another chosen one plot line. If you want a cool star wars story about morally gray characters you should check out Andor! Very cool and way better writing

[@jacobglancy7523]

"Having to hurt one group of people in order to help another is always a tragic trade-off--even if it's necessary." great video!

[@countduco]

Saddens me watching this after the next two movies released. There was so much potential and it was completely wasted :/

[@CargoReborn]

the Clone Wars tv series explores this with concept with the clones showing them all as people with individual thoughts. So perhaps they plan to explore this further since they have before?

[@itskoile1985]

My personal reading is that Finn, when he escapes and attacks fellow Stormtroopers is that he is exhilarated by having agency for maybe the first time in his life.

[@williamschneider1953]

i feel like it in itself is a metaphor in itself, you know, the dehumanizing nature of war. How even people that learned about how humanity is important will mindlessly kill people just because they're the enemy or because they didn't see the horrid nature of what they've done. and it becomes even more mindless than before.

[@Thalugor]

While I do agree with most of what's stated, I think there's one thing being overlooked here: if other stormtroopers are to be considered as equally humanized as Finn is, they are just as capable of exercising their free will, despite their indoctrination from early age, and therefore equally capable to choose to rebel against the First Order, which they do not do. If we are to consider them as fully intelligent and emotional beings (in spite of their portrayal as mostly cannon fodder) we have to consider the possibility that for any number of them their place in the conflict is a consequence of their own free choice. I do not believe this necessarily changes any conclusion we could derive from this analysis, but nonetheless we should still consider it; otherwise we aren't fully examining the implications of what's portrayed.

[@PopCultureDetective]

The thing is the choice not to show any humanity whatsoever in any Stormtrooper but Finn was a decision made by the filmmakers. If other Stromtroopers were show making the choice to stay that would be one thing, but they're basically just mindless robots. It feels like they didn't think the implications of Finn's origin story through all the way.

[@KeithBurgun]

Okay, let's say you're right: they have free will and made a free choice to continue fighting for the Evil Team. So what? As you said "this does not change any conclusion we could derive from this analysis". So why say it other than to create some kind of defensive smokescreen? Your "does not change any conclusion" is like a "no offense, but" --- it's pretty implicit, or at least easy to interpret your post as saying that it's OK to kill them and have a blast doing it because they made the wrong choice. WHICH, I may remind you, many people actually believe.

[@Thalugor]

+Keith Burgun doesn't necessarily change, meanining it may or may not, but my point that without examining that line of thought the analysis is incomplete. Which is besides the point of the video as I've realized after commenting since the point is the inconsistency in the portrayal across stormtroopers in the film. In any case, I do not mean to say that if we assume they freely chose to become or at least keep on being enforcers for the First Order that makes morally right any and all acts of violence against them and any enjoyment the characters might derive from them; rather what I mean to say is the further analysis not explored in the film but on the video on any such moral questions is incomplete without examining this idea, and even if any of us were to arrive at the same particular conclusion, the analysis would be fundamentally invalid without examining this or any other possible line of thinking we might logically deduce.

[@dollors1]

I don't think brainwashed kids have that level of "thinking outside the box logic" that others do.

[@concernedcitizen6313]

A lack of moral complexity in a Star Wars movie? I'm shocked -- shocked, I tell you!

[@timbirdie8180]

I actually like the lack of complexity , Finn was wasted opportunity thi

[@359339]

It was Finn's first battle. He hadn't done any harm before. This wasn't a redemption, it was just an escape.

[@jakewalton2792]

The Clone Wars animated series explains that clones have feelings and unique personalities.

[@donroad9424]

Accurate storm troopers? now that would change the Star Wars universe :P

[@0roseable]

Interesting watching this after the Rise of Skywalker, with more defector Stormtroopers. And the suggestion with Finn and the others that the force casued them to defect. Would be worth revisiting.

[@malibarel1499]

7:13 - 7:54 You literally made a full countdown of every Stormtrooper death in the Force Awakens in less than a minute, something that others will make eight minute videos on. Good job! 👍

[@naungyoe3215]

68 "We were this close"

[@pjarmitage8003]

Good vid, but the movie does make some not so subtle hints that Finn is force sensitive, or at least tied to it in some way, and that is probably a real huge impact on how he breaks out of the programming.

[@Player-pj9kt]

In star wars only the most evil characters deserve redemption

[@timbirdie8180]

Lmao it feels that way Darth Vader killed kids, he gets to be redeemed cuz he's Luke's Dad tho

[@VIBESanyDAY]

This is true, but the clone wars animated series gave lots of character to the clone army. Example - Captain Rex

[@chloecho2448]

The missed opportunity with finn’s characterization is one of the most frustrating aspects of the new Star Wars films. It becomes so clear by the last Jedi how little the filmmakers care about Finn in how they simply repeat his character arc from the force awakens.

[@thescratchyscratch7848]

Still makes me wish the modern starwars movies had a more serious and grim tone, consecutively that is.

[@Ando1428]

It's so sad because this is the character arc we wanted for Finn.

[@ethangle8785]

68 stormtroopers killed Finn: I know what I have to do but I don’t know if I have the strength to do it

[@willreading4958]

"Only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise"

[@MakiPcr]

My read of Finn in Star Wars is the profound dehumanization of the First Order, that Finn can kill his comrades without feeling guilty. I'm pretty sure that's just me reading too much into it; but it's better than pretending Finn is the only Stormtrooper who is truly human

[@Collateral0]

I first saw this concept introduced in the clone wars tv series. Were we got to see the daily lives and personalities of the clones. It made each and everyone human and full of character. Even the droids got sum aswell sepcifically on that raid of the separtist prison were r2 d2 had hacked droids which sacrificed themselves for the jedi and the rest of the group. Even stating "it was an honor to serve with you sir".

[@chasm671]

The character of Finn doesn't make any sense whatsoever. As pointed out in this video, his personality is completely unrealistic if what he says about First Order "recruitment" and training is true, as is his sudden decision to desert the First Order after seeing his fellow Stormtrooper killed, and then proceed to kill his former comrades and whoop over their deaths with as much carefree enthusiasm as any Rebel or Resistance fighter we've seen. Now, I could just accept that The Force Awakens is a poorly-written and uninspired story that never even tries to live up to its potential, which is likely the correct real-world explanation. But as far as in-universe explanations go, the only thing I can conclude is that either Finn is pulling a double-bluff and it will somehow turn out that he wasn't actually kidnapped and raised by the First Order at all but was in fact a Resistance agent all along, or that whoever is telling the story (the one who always begins with "A long time ago...") is spinning it heavily in favour of one side, and deliberately skimming over the gaping holes and contradictions in their narrative.

[@Teauma]

Accidentally raising strong philosophical and moral dilemma and not addressing them at all has always been a star wars specialty.

[@DoomSeventy]

There are a lot of stormtrooper stories in The Clone Wars series, where they are very human and do fight for each other, and even against each other.

[@MollieDamon]

those were clone troopers

[@abishekravichandran423]

you would have thought that Finn should have at least tried to reform other stormtroopers but guess what he did?...he killed the many of them

[@glitched-eyes7378]

When I rewatch the Star Wars movies, I think I'm going to see the storm troopers differently now, Really liked the video

[@JanBroder]

you are right

[@The_Mup]

Po shoots and kills Finns stormtrooper best friend -> Finn makes Po his new best friend -> The End.

[@NinaNiterose86]

I always saw this change as a sign of the Empire slowly losing some of it's power/control over the people. The light side of the force re-awakens and the Empire's cracks begin to show...both metaphorically and literally. lol

[@stormaggeden]

I agree with a lot in this video. It never sat right with me that Finn would so willingly shoot his fellow stormtroopers. So soon after defecting. That was his First battle. I can imagine that maybe he had doubted his whole life about the order. And maybe never knowing his parents because he was stolen has been really hard on him. But those were people he literally grew up with. Are we to think that first trooper to die was the only one he cared about? Why doesn't he seem to have more conflicts with his actions? Maybe they were terrible to him. Maybe he hated life there from the get go. But we need more story for that to be the case if they want us to believe it. I think we SHOULD see more humanity in the stormtroopers. Having the movie show more humanity/life/reality for both sides would be far more interesting than just a remake of the originals. BUT, I think that they are not going to. And I think they are not even going to use Finn as much anymore either. Finn is my favorite character from the new series and could be so great. But watch as they use the coma to have him barely be in the movie and then almost forget him in the 3rd one. Just my prediction. But maybe Im being to pessimistic.

[@roacht5747]

I'd love to see this explored further.

[@JackQSmith]

I always thought Finn's character was poorly written for pretty much these exact reasons. For someone that was conditioned since being very young to behave a certain way, he certainly had a lot of personality.

[@VirajKhedekar]

Now imagine if, instead of the Canto Bight sequence, The Last Jedi had Finn going undercover on Snoke's ship (or somewhere else) to gather a force of First Order dissidents to help the Resistance escape.

[@garydevine605]

Whoever wrote the bad batch watched this video first.

[@thomasharrison8485]

I don't see how this is a paradox compared to, lets say, any WW2 movie where countless Germans are killed. When you watch a movie you are put on one side that you follow and ultimately identify with. It's group psychology, you identify with them, therefore you support them.

[@imperialguardsman4182]

When your a storm trooper but it is 1916

[@Dev_Builder]

I feel so bad for the stormtroopers, they're living ragdolls... Sad.

[@TMAJGATB]

My god your videos are eyeopeners for me! Thank you so much for your incredible work and keep going 😊

[@ramonalejandrosuare]

Love this analysis. I always hated Finn's character because of what a waste of a good concept he represented. The guy is programmed to be a supersoldier his entire life, desensitized to violence, and indoctrinated to complete conformity in line with New Order dogma but he is deprogrammed into a rebel in one battle scene. I mean, really? The Force Awakens could have been a terrific opportunity to deconstruct some of the longstanding tropes in the Star Wars mythos by complicating some of its stock characters like the cannon fodder Stormtrooper, but it was just a lazy rehash of the same story in a new variation.