The Story of IPD Boxcars

[@kurtsunderbruch4711]

In the summers of 1974 and 1975 I had a summer job working on the assembly line at Pacific Car & Foundry, and worked on boxcar orders for companies such as Frisco, Southern Pacific, Union Pacific, ATSF, and Burlington Northern. There was amazing variety in the ways these orders were built based on the demands of the railroad. Some were quite nice (ATSF comes to mind), and others were just a cheap as possible (SP comes to mind). PC&F built some big orders for Railbox, but I wasn't working there then. My dad was an industrial photographer there, and he kept me apprised of what was going on. The story in the late 70's was that whenever a railroad was putting together a train to go to Mexico that they would always use the Railbox cars because frequently the boxcars never returned from those trips, the and the railroads didn't want to lose their own cars. I don't know if that's factual, but that was the scuttlebutt at the time.

[@michaelchristman2329]

Bring back the colorful boxcars. They made sitting at the crossing a joy to behold. At least for me as a kid, and a big kid now, if not for my parents. I always like seeing the orange Ilinois Central boxcars with its white "i" on a black circle logo.

[@5roundsrapid263]

I grew up in a town on the Illinois Central, and remember them well. BTW, the lower case “I” is actually a cross section of a rail!

[@thestarlightalchemist7333]

I love how one of the first shots was a clip from Buster Keaton's Railrodder.

[@craftyalex2024]

Hey there Brian!

[@m1t2a1]

Saw it in grade 4, '69. In class, part of Geography class for the week. Once I was lucky enough to see The Railrodder open for Les Vacances de Monsieur Hulot in a community centre in Scarborough ON. Fantastic pairing. Here's The Railrodder for anyone that wants to know what we're talking about. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rorQlIFnZ7JsbdE

[@Homeskillet-mk6bj]

I caught that too!

[@thomaslgrice]

That's at 0:29. I was unaware of this movie. I immediately sat down and watched it and the behind-the-scenes documentary "Buster Keaton Rides Again" with my son. I feel enriched by the humanity.

[@sirrliv]

This is what I love about this channel. You never know quite what you're gonna get, but it'll always be interesting. I wonder what he'll cover next. The Bopper, maybe? A boxcar that could be converted into a grain hopper?

[@scottrayhons2537]

Really? Never heard of a Bopper!

[@microbusss]

actually boxcars do haul grain tho the grain is in bags I know the Canadian railroads were hauling loose grain in boxcars one time

[@jimdennis2451]

I grew up in a town in far upstate NY of 1500 people. They made the blue St. Lawrence box cars there and I remember side tracks full of new box cars just sitting there... for years. I only have two pieces of my old HO train set. A Santa Fe F7 and a blue St. Lawrence box car that I found decals for and painted over an old Tyco box car back then. That was cool to learn. Thanks.

[@4everdc302]

I now have a term for the way I run my layout, IPD. Thanks AmtrakGuy 🚂🇨🇦🇺🇲

[@kibashisiyoto6771]

I wrote my master's thesis on this phenomena. NRUC really over supplied their shortlines (Pickens, St. Lawrence, Middletown & New Jersey) to the point they couldn't fit them all, even if they used the mainline track. Further, they only provided single door boxcars, when the western roads wanted double door boxcars for lumber loading. NRUC also had a strange definition of "utilization" - not the percentage of miles spent loaded, but the percentage of time the car was off the shortline earning per diem. Because the single door cars were a pain in the rear on the west coast, the western roads took action and loaded them to Mexico as much as they could, where they earned less per diem, to discourage NRUC from finding loads to send them out west. NRUC filed an anti-trust lawsuit against the major railroads, which was settled on undisclosed terms. SSI Rail (which became Itel Rail) was smart and only provided enough boxcars to the participating shortlines to cover about half of their outbound loadings. Those were the really colorful ones - because the paint job went into the base cost of the car, and that increased the amount of per diem they earned. Most of SSI Rail's cars were built by FMC. The deal SSI made with the shortlines was that the shortline would get any per diem revenue in excess of 90% of time off the shortline. So the shortlines often made them to be free runners so they could wander the country. The returns that could be made just collecting the per diem rentals were phenomenal, and if you financed them you could, at that time, get a 10% investment tax credit plus accelerated depreciation to the point that returns in excess of 20% ROI were possible. Ultimately, the ICC did not account for the fact that railroads and their customers were rapidly shifting grain shipments from boxcars to easy to load and unload covered hopper cars during the '60's and '70's. So there just wasn't enough of a need for more boxcars. There's still a few of the IPD boxcars around, but they were mostly 70 ton cars, which are hardly economic anymore. But it was indeed a colorful era for the railroad industry. My favorite livery - the McCloud River railroad ones with the bear with a fish in its mouth.

[@cdavid8139]

This utilization definition was common with all IPD boxcar leasing firms....not just NRUC. The cars were ALL earning revenue based on a per hour basis with very little earned per mile. As far as Mexico was concerned, the Mexican railroads paid the same rates they just did so very very slowly. As they still do today. As far as ITEL is concerned, they and Brae Car and others were also guilty of leasing out more boxcars than the short lines could load out. The leasing company and the short line determined whether or not to make the cars free running, assigned to CSR 1 and 2, or assigned The 90% share threshhold was not fixed and as boxcars became surplus that sharing threshhold dropped dramatically. That percentage varied with who the cars were leased to and what the short line could negotiate Many of the 70 ton cars have been scrapped over the years and many are being scrapped right now as scrap prices are very high and the cars are older. In some cases there are spot shortages for 70' ton 50' cars.

[@HitsTownUSA]

My favorite boxcars were the old FGE “Solid Gold” logo

[@violetausterlitz1379]

I used to see a lot of these being shuffled around between four different railroads where I used to live, and I always liked spotting the really old ones with their original paint. Probably the most interesting were a couple of IDPs lettered for the Ashley, Drew, and Northern, which I did not seriously believe was a real railroad.

[@trainfan4449]

the ADW was owned by a paper company. paper company closed, and you can guess what happened to the railway.

[@cdavid8139]

@@trainfan4449 The Ashley Drew and Northern was ADN. The paper plant is still open and alive and well. The ADN itself was absorbed into the ALM (Arkansas Louisiana an Missouri I believe). The northern end of the ADN was then abandoned as the traffic all began moving south.

[@MLWQC]

That was a great video, excellent vintage footage and explanation. Well done. I have bookmark this.

[@rtwice93555]

Well, this sure answered a question from my childhood. I grew up in a small railroad town, Mojave, California. Both the Southern Pacific and Santa Fe railroads pass through town with a small switching yard and scale in the middle of town. When we were kids (the early to mid 1970s) there was an unused section of track out in the desert with about a dozen boxcars sat for years. We had a blast playing on them. We didn't have iphones, Xbox, lap tops, or any of the fancy toys kids have today. We didn't need them. Heck no, we each had our own 50 foot box car. When it got over 110F in the Mojave desert, we sought refuge in our home away from home. If you didn't know the magic password, you weren't allowed in my boxcar. I always wondered why the boxcars were setting out there in the first place. And now, 50 years later, I know why. Kids today will never know the joy of having a 550sq/ft fort in the desert

[@HitsTownUSA]

Amazing story, I’ve driven past that rail yard when Highway 58 used to go through town. Now it’s bypassed.

[@loganbaileysfunwithtrains606]

Interesting, this is something I never really knew about, I had always assumed that the railroads take the loaded boxcar to the customer and then send it back to “home rails” didn’t ever think that they continually used them over the road and I figured if they did there was a lease agreement and not just per day payment, makes a lot of sense. It’s a lot similar to how modern truck carriers operate, constantly keep their trucks and trailers moving loaded on the road

[@cdavid8139]

Boxcars can be 'assigned' to a specific loading point, or designated as 'free-running'. In general a free running boxcar has no equipment that dedicates it to a specialized service. It is just a 'box' with smooth interior lining.

[@masonschade6566]

Wow! Vermont Railway and Lamoille Valley, both right outside my home, thanks for including those!!

[@jfreelan1964]

Excellent summary on boxcars, in the diesel era. Gave you a thumbs up.

[@swapsplat]

I didn't know I wanted to know about the box car industry in the 1970s... but I guess I did. And still found it interesting.

[@jockellis]

I met a fellow who owned over 3,000 rail cars. This was in 2004 and was doing well.

[@captainkeyboard1007]

It is nice to know that the railroads are still moving in America. Ships and barges are good for shipping cargo overseas, but freight railroad is better for us. Let us build in America!

[@AlRoderick]

I really like the incredible variety of amateur provided improvised livery on those boxcars.

[@cdjhyoung]

The irony around the IPD cars is that what the industry really needed was a simple change in the car routing rules. In the late 1960's, an empty freight car could only be sent back to its home road in the most direct route. This meant too few of them moved loaded in both directions. When the Federal government abolished this rule, it let the freight car fleet move more freely and freight car utilization went up dramatically. Instead of freight trains moving with almost half the cars being empty, now those same cars were more often loaded. Specialization of freight cars did as much to make the IPD cars obsolete as the over building by the freight lines. The mid 70's is when the surge to transform grain movement in this really caught hold. Shippers no longer loaded grain into box cars with paper doors. They now used dedicated covered hoppers instead. Trailer Train did its part to end the practice of transferring trucked freight to boxcars and then deliver to freight houses to be trucked again. Container freight movement also expanded at this time. All combined to end the rein of the boxcar on American railroads.

[@cdavid8139]

When the IPD came about the rules already permitted "free running" boxcars and gondolas. As long as the cars were general purpose (not equipped with specialized lading devices designed to hold particular commodities) you could designate your equipment as free running. Most IPD boxcars were built taking advantage of the "free running" status which had been in place for some time.

[@25mfd]

the BIGGEST irony is that according to a November, 1977 GAO report, the then ICC admitted that they could not define what would constitute a boxcar shortage. then on the very next page they claim that there are now (at that time), "... large surpluses exist..." (referring to boxcar surpluses) www.gao.gov/assets/ced-77-138.pdf i walked away from this report with the feeling that this entire program was SCAM that was facilitated by a U.S. governmental agency

[@gophils234]

Thank you for the video , very informative. I grew up during that time. I used to love to watch freight trains back then and all the box cars with different Road names and now I know why.

[@vidiottheowl2825]

damn 3am with no sleep really got me watching this huh

[@bluebellsfan8704]

This was incredible! Those IPD Boxcars Looks kinda cool

[@peterdibble]

This was an interesting story., I never knew this was a thing. Nice work with this.

[@the_autism_express]

I never knew about the IPD vans (British slang for boxcars) until today

[@beeble2003]

I don't think "van" is slang, is it? It's the term that the British railway companies used, as far as I'm aware.

[@crsrdash-840b5]

Long live the Boxcar! I can't see them being completed replaced by intermodal, center beam flatcars, or the trucking industry. There will always be a need for boxcars.

[@Anfidurl]

I love how Pickens had SO MANY per diem cars and SO little track.

[@cdavid8139]

In those days Pickens was owned by the company leasing the cars. They were built in a shop located on PICK

[@Pensyfan19]

Nice short video on these common freight cars. *DANG* that is an awesome logo in the middle at 3:46! That design deserves an award!

[@daleroth236]

As I found these IPD cars attractive I have many on my HO layout. Now I know the real story behind them. I have many railbox cars and their gondolas too. Have to get them weathered some day.

[@msnow22000]

That’s what I find to be a little unprototypical looking on my layout. I bought cars from all my favorite roads. To me it looks odd when compared to the drab plain color lease cars that abound on today’s railroads. My favorite is my McCloud River Box car though.

[@chuckgilly]

Thanks, I had no idea about IPD boxcars. I was clueless.

[@TheyCallHimDietSeth]

Awesome video, thank you so much for sharing! I watch a good amount of streaming rail cams (mainly VRF cameras) and these IPD boxcars are one of my favorite things to watch for. It's amazing the different railroads that still have these boxcars roaming around! I've got a small stack of N scale IPD boxcars that are waiting to be patched and weathered to match the prototype, too.

[@richardhudson980]

I started my career building cars for ACF in 1973. We made different types of cars. I mainly built t.t. pigs. Enjoyed my job there.

[@tibowanNiste]

Would love to see the history of autoracks !!

[@captainkeyboard1007]

That has to be seen next.

[@jeffreyhunt1727]

I wish somebody would do a two-hour long documentary on IPD boxcars

[@MikeG42]

Excellent video AmtrakGuy I really like this one ! , This video provided some interesting and useful information as I am a big fan of the 50ft IPD boxcars. I have several in HO scale. You included many good photos of different roadnames and the narrator was great. Thanks well done. 😁👍

[@laxingpiper23]

This was genuinely enjoyable. Would love more content like this

[@coffeeisgood102]

Thanks for the lesson. I was always interested in the wooden box cars, how the body and trucks are constructed and their size, as well as the braking technology they used. Hope you have a video somewhere on that subject.

[@franksnyder1357]

Buster Keaton. That's the BOMB.

[@ChicagoMadisonWesternRR]

I recall reading that some short line railroads would have special late night runs to move their boxcars at interchange tracks so that they could charge per diem. The rail box solved this issue by not being affiliated with any particular railroad.

[@cdavid8139]

Per Diem....despite the name....is a per "hour" and not "per day" rate. The old "midnight interchange" went away decades ago as the industry converted to hourly car hire. Trailer Train (RBOX/ABOX/TBOX etc) are hourly per diem cars that are shared among the Class I roads who participated in the investment.

[@isitredormaroon2196]

It should be noted that the boxcar is my FAVORITE TYPE OF ROLLING STOCK EVER

[@harrisonallen651]

The slide doors always stood out to me

[@roberthuron9160]

England had similar setup,during WW2,as many cars were put into common user,status,and that covered,vans,opens[gondolas],and flatcars,flat cars, were so designated! The non-common user cars carried an,"N",on the Carbody,so the could be distinguished,from the common users! Most of the non-common users,were vacuum fitted vans,and specials,covering heavy well flats,and sundry grain,milk,tank cars,etc.,British Railways inherited this,and they also had a container revolution,so there are parallels,in the US,and the UK!! Thank you for the information,never knew the full story,and it's much appreciated 🙏 😊 😀 👍 ☺ 🙂!

[@haroldcochan3971]

Seems the only colorful trains nowadays are the intermodal sea boxes speeding along at 70 mph.

[@JoshColletta]

I haven't seen that Lenawee County Railroad logo in ages!

[@lenaweerailfan8162]

The Lenawee County Railroad had far more than 20 of these boxcars. I believe there were 80-100.

[@aidans1045]

This was a fascinating video. Thank you.

[@scottrayhons2537]

Klemme Co op Grain from Klemme Iowa used to have a few pink grain hopper cars that used to float around the country. Klemme Co op went by the wayside now.

[@ThatWildSD40-2]

Very interesting.

[@thedemolitionmuniciple]

My O scale trains tend to have a good makeup of these I really like these box cars

[@AndresGomez-wz3kp]

Can you do an episode about the failed 90 Macs and ac6000’s? That would be interesting since it would probably get a good amount of views

[@fernandomarques5166]

I wouldnt call them completely failed, maybe too far ahead of their time? as their successors, the SD70ACe/45, SD80ACe and ES58ACi have had significant orders in the last 10 years.

[@beeble2003]

@@fernandomarques5166 The SD70 is very successful, but it's a predecessor of the SD90, not a successor. There were no significant orders for the SD80ACe specifically (only seven were ever built) or the SD80 in general (only 42 built, across all models). The ES59ACi was kinda successful, in that Chinese Railways ordered 700 of them; however, only 300 of those were ever built, which is 17 fewer than the AC6000. If they're still being used at the original rated power of 6,250hp, you could say they were more successful than the AC6000, since all of those have been either derated to around 4,500hp or scrapped. I think it's fair to say that the concept of these ultra-high-powered locomotives did fail. They were unreliable and losing one out of two AC6000s/SD90s meant that you'd lost half your train power and were totally sunk, whereas losing one out of three SD70s/Gevos meant that you could often limp to the next convenient stopping point.

[@sernajrlouis]

Always love your videos. Keep them coming!!!

[@timosha21]

I'm a tram and I approve this video!!

[@robertterry9367]

Very informative- thank you-Bob

[@daveyboy_]

Like everything in life - it just aint the same. Take railfaning - same engines -engieers who dont wave - every car is the same - no cabooses. And graffiti everywhere. Its like watching the subway go by in NYC in the 70's

[@cdavid8139]

As to engineer's waving...perhaps blame KZbin. Go look at some of the comments some railfans post. They are negative, critical and often trash the very industry they follow. Crews are aware of this. They know that their moves caught on camera may be subject to constant second-guessing by negative railfans within hours. The actions of bad apples have consequences

[@jeffreyhunt1727]

Terrific video! thanks for posting

[@Lakeside_Rail_Productions]

I've seen a ex-Seattle North Coast boxcar, but it wasn't just plain brown and had the interesting dark green and yellow door scheme.

[@adventuresofamtrakcascades301]

0:53 OMG that's a lot of boxcars to order 1:43 1:44 1:46

[@kyleecarlson9912]

The staggers act, Deregulation, 1980 recession Had a hand in The law being changed for IP d's. Rail Box Had to sell off Some of their Box cars Back to the underwriting railroads. But this period of time was modeler's dream.

[@Posttrip]

That was very informative. Thank you.

[@TheOdst219]

I saw a PanAm box car a month ago, taggers got to it though.

[@truckdaddy1957]

A rare Buster Keaton spotting!

[@Panzermeister36]

Another great video! Thank you :)

[@paulsmith6553]

Nice to see the PH&D I think CSX bought that railroad sometime in the 80's.

[@pashon4percushon]

I always wondered why box cars were mixed up and not organized. But i never saw Santa Fe, BN, SP in the New England area.

[@markcantemail8018]

Thank you for the Video . What about the Despatch Company ( East Rochester ) .

[@alcopower5710]

VERY informative. Loved it 💪

[@jaysmith1408]

I was wondering why our town is filled to the gills with Winchester and Western boxcars. That’s hundreds of miles (and three separate railroads) away.

[@jrpeet]

Really interesting

[@keithstudly6071]

One of the reasons that rail cars set unused is that the owners are claiming tax deprecation on the cars. When they have been fully deprecated then they may be scrapped but not before.

[@fogdan]

Great Job on this video!!!

[@canadalavearn]

me internally exploding because the small historical railroad near me gets referenced at 1:56

[@minutemanmac]

The Berlin Mills Railway cars were not IPD however, they were the Brown Company's cars for their home road and purchased for dedicated paper service loading from the Berlin Mills at Berlin and Cascade, NH. Upon being unloaded at customers around the country, there were to return home for reloading. When St. Lawrence & Atlantic under G&W ownership took over operations of Berlin Mills Rwy. they were placed into the SLR's boxcar pool, and later sold off to leasing companies and a decent chunk to Vermont Railways GMRC in the mid 2000s.

[@cdavid8139]

The were actually IPD cars. Who the owner was does not dictate whether or not the cars earned revenue under IPD. IPD cars were often used by papermills for outbound loading. The SLR boxcar pool was in turn owned by a leasing company.

[@minutemanmac]

Correct, but they were not earning IPD revenue under BMS as they were not in IPD service until entering SLR pool. While purchased during the IPD boom the cars were financed and purchased by Brown for use by Brown for outbound loads from Berlin and Cascsde. They saw no other loading or per diem revenue, retuning mty. Upon entering the SLR pool they were split into the SLR/GMRC/LVRC lease pool. I can't recall the leasing company? I think it had the blue square Q logo?

[@cdavid8139]

@@minutemanmac They were indeed earning IPD revenue under BMS. IPD is a term for "Incentive Per DIem" which means that cars earned a "bonus" hourly car hire rate in addition to the standard hourly rate. These rates are assigned by the rail industry and based on age and value of the car. The incentive rate went away when the surplus hit, but the hourly rate (per diem) remains in effect to this day. Now perhaps you know of some series containing private marks (not BMS) that were free. I am not familiar with those. But all BMS marked cars green boxcars in the 300-400 series were under an IPD lease from the Brae Corporation out of San Francisco. You can see LEASED FROM BRAE painted on the car sides.

[@NicLaue]

I'm honestly kinda curious, with intermodal... What still needs to be shipped by boxcar?

[@JackGirard1]

If your shipment is going between rail served locations, box cars are more efficient. No need for a crane and truck & trailer to move them around.

[@AbelG8781]

What he said ⬆️

[@25mfd]

mostly paper products, newsprint, bales of scrap paper/boxes and lumber products... then there's the off brand freight like roofing shingles, beer, food products (canned goods, butter, fish, meats, potatoes, bags of flour and even bags of navy beans)

[@fernandomarques5166]

In my country is very common for boxcars to carry sacks of cement mix.

[@AbelG8781]

@@fernandomarques5166 igual en EE UU. No son tan comunes como antes pero todavia siguen dando vuelta

[@christopherstory2136]

Super intersting facts..

[@willberestartingthischanne9984]

Awesome Video

[@ronalddevine9587]

Very interesting

[@danielmalone4446]

For me, its McCloud River Railroad Company IPD

[@joshuaharper4439]

I live by a major train line and I haven’t seen a Bosch car in years

[@northpennvalleysteamrailroad]

Awesome video friend!!

[@haroldwilkes6608]

Without KarTrak this wouldn't have been possible...how about a video on that?

[@LMS5935]

Is that Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga music

[@Haya_archive1]

This is interesting

[@JackCarsonsRailroadVideos]

Interesting.

[@lohphat]

0:13 What are those mechanized devices on the sides of the rails called which move cars around in a yard?

[@OXN-RailProductions]

Seems to look like a Hump Yard, Those devices on the side are to slow down the car as it goes into its designated track.

[@FunAngelo2005]

Even the most Basic pice of roling Stock has history and the fact that there were dedicated laws for said Rolling stock

[@jamessimms415]

You left out the most famous (infamous?) ‘Short Line’, The LaSalle and Bureau County Railroad Company. The LS&BC was (in)famous for being involved in a boxcar theft scandal from the Penn Central Railroad in the early 1970s. Apparently, the LS&BC purchased some boxcars from the Penn Central to refurbish and put into service to earn "per diem" charges. The PC delivered the boxcars, but more and more boxcars kept showing up until the LS&BC was literally plugged with them. The PC accused the LS&BC of stealing them, but the LS&BC wondered how they could steal things that were given to them. A series of articles in THE NEW YORK TIMES from March 19, March 20, and June 17, 1971, state that the boxcars were purchased by an outside company and the LS&BC was contracted to repair the boxcars. A somewhat different explanation is told in ‘The Wreck of the Penn Central’ by Joseph Daughen. The book indicates that the PC had such bad records and control of its own equipment that they (Penn Central) had no idea where their rolling stock was at.

[@lonesoul663]

I like how boxcars used to look before idiots started tagging them.

[@rottenroads1982]

Imagine, a Unit train comprised of BoxCars. Besides, I would definitely like to know All the different Types of BoxCars.

[@kmagnussen1052]

More on rolling stock with attention to safety additions i.e. dot 117 tank cars etc. thanks Most of the sites seam to be focused on locomotives. There is more to railroading than engines. Thanks

[@mrsaturngamingandstories]

One train contains 160 Boxcars

[@thegamerguyyt]

can you do engines of amtrak on the amtrak flexliner that is the danish dsb ic3 train

[@LetsGoChaseThatTrain]

Now most of them are owned by the major lessors, and have been patched many times.

[@theatomicmanman544]

2:07 hell yea VTR

[@district2productions]

And Berlin mills

[@markst.germain9286]

Hey Lenawee County Michigan

[@Bull3tBikes]

Would intermodals be considered the modern equivalent of boxcars? At least that’s the way I see it , I love me a stack train.

[@jamesstuart3346]

Nothing quite matches the Red White and Blue "State Of Maine" boxcar...anybody else remember?

[@SantaFe19484]

Next load, any road!

[@ivanthevaluable2559]

So Many Boxcars

[@M3gabrandon]

one of these things were in my grandma's backyard

[@admydragon]

Love me a good FMC 50 foot boxcar.

[@josepuebla1190]

Yes , i'm living in chile .most de boxcar in My loyout is fmc 50 roundhouse ....and athearn PS 50 boxcar .....58 cars in ho scale , all superdetailed , all second hand from Ebay .very happy for this car in my loyout , grettings from chile ..

[@scottrayhons2537]

What would a 2 hopper bottom, 3 hopper bottom and 4 hopper bottom car haul that I saw last week?

[@25mfd]

2 bottom hoppers usually haul sand, cement, roofing granules. 3 and 4 bottom hoppers haul malt, barley, corn, wheat, soybeans, potash, salt, fertilizers.