The TF2 Food Chain (Class Counters in TF2)

[@TheHappyDudeUK]

The actual TF2 food chain: Sandvich > Heavy

[@1mariomaniac]

I believe your food chain is reversed... Unless your talking about a sandwich made of mutant bread.

[@1mariomaniac]

@Samdaboss Gaming yup, he's done nothing but teleport bread for 3 days and here we are

[@boomeronet7888]

Sandvich/Banana/Buffalo steak/Chocolate/Fishcake/Metal sandvich/Sandvich with wrapping paper < Heavy A couple of those are strange but existing food choices

[@iggypeters5564]

So pootis being eaten by bread is meta now?

[@zaucethesaucebauce527]

@@1mariomaniac that's an arrow painting to the heavy.

[@PabIopiro]

The true top of the food chain: *Random Crits*

[@undataphstarlane6752]

The sad truth hurts

[@RandomPerson-cm2wg]

*Laughs with vaccinator*

[@KimMui_]

Random Person melee crits

[@RandomPerson-cm2wg]

Kim무이 well, fuck.

[@No-mh6hg]

*laughs in pan*

[@dylanlesher7065]

Demoman can pose a soft counter to Heavy, as if he can quickly burst his massive health pool with 3 pills against an immobile class.

[@shronk9463]

Im bad, but i find using stickies in conjunction with pipes is a MUCH better way to deal with heavies (especially when they have a pocket med)

[@draconiclegends2007]

Just go quickie with stock, shoot two stickies at the hoovy, shoot two pipes while detonating them. Insta kill

[@rorokhorosho]

@@draconiclegends2007 too much effort. just click head

[@silksongoutyet]

@@draconiclegends2007 Wait why would you kill a hoovy though? They just wanna give out sandwiches

[@draconiclegends2007]

@@silksongoutyet Whoops wrong term sorry. I would never kill an actual hoovy.

[@t3cneo948]

pyro hard counters demoknight (air blast)

[@sorbet7216]

Most pyros arent smart enough to realize that

[@magikturtle_7628]

Depends on how many heads demo has. Max heads is hard to kill with stock.

[@Necro2Juggalo]

@@magikturtle_7628 Really? I just M2 rape them in the corner while they burn and rage quit.

[@tlep2979]

@@Necro2Juggalo that is the best way of putting it I have ever heard

[@guy3nder529]

does any class not hard counter demoknight?

[@Kibble_Bites]

Okay I have to argue the fact that Heavy is infact a hard-counter to Pyro, since Heavy fires bullets instead of projectiles, that means that the Pyro cannot reflect anything. Heavy's huge damage ramp-up and his health will quickly dispatch a Pyro before it can kill him, and most Heavys with the sandvich will come out fine. Of course, flareguns are also an weapon for Pyros to have, but it is only a minor hinderance since Heavy can retreat and heal up.

[@a.person1805]

While i agree with all of this, there is a situation where this can maybe end up having pyro kill the heavy. The pyro sets heavy on fire, heavy retreats to eat sandvich, and then pyro burns heavy while he is stuck in sandvich taunt. However, most of the time it does not work like this, still thought it is an important thing to consider.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

@@a.person1805 You make it sound like afterburn is anything but a minor nuisance that's only sometimes dangerous. The only real way for a pyro to down a hoovy is by surprise. Ambush Misha and don't let up on the trigger until he's crispy.

[@null6292]

And clearly the counter there is just slap on Nat and turn your sensitivity up by a tenfold

[@fabianromowiczcz3085]

Actually if heavy dont have medic pyro can outplay him, but only on certain maps or with very risky combo what work only on 300 hp heavy

[@griffinbastion]

@@fabianromowiczcz3085 Nope I have never seen a pyro outplay a heavy in a 1v1 situation, where both are at their full/mostly full hp. The only situations where pyro is able to kill heavy is when either heavy is low on health or focusing someone else and pyro has a backburner.

[@pulledpork9778]

I am shocked that you didn’t put pyro as a counter to demoknight. The fact that pyro can permanently keep demoknights out of melee range while dealing afterburn and burst damage to them is definitely a counter.

[@Jpeg_skeleton]

Yeah demo just cannot kill a pyro if they use airblast.

[@ruileite4579]

@@Jpeg_skeleton eihrblast

[@Jpeg_skeleton]

@@ruileite4579 are you ok?

[@Jpeg_skeleton]

@@ruileite4579 watch solar light just that spelling is killing me

[@ruileite4579]

@@Jpeg_skeleton it's the onomatopoeia for the airblast sound he uses

[@ivansanchez143]

Heavy with medic counters everyone except teleporters. U can telephrag people with über

[@sullgames]

Also Heavy with Holiday Punch

[@guy3nder529]

telefrag*

[@nabilmouasher399]

I have telefragged an Uber combo and it’s truly a transcendent moment to kill the invincible.

[@ahjh1695]

Nabil Mouasher KILL THE GODS WITH SCIENCE!

[@Spanishdog17]

Taunt kills counter it too.

[@sleepy1066]

"heavy being pocketed by a medic counters everyone" -laughs in fully charged headshot and backstab

[@876r2rfs]

*laughs in vaccinator and basic awareness

[@sleepy1066]

@@876r2rfs vacinator wont help alot since you'll have to change the resistance due to other classes spamming

[@876r2rfs]

you can uber and switch to another resistance, y'know it only takes like 12 seconds to get a point of uber

[@sleepy1066]

@@876r2rfs ye tru forgot about that

[@sleepy1066]

@@876r2rfs dont see it getting used alot so i just forgot it exists

[@1mariomaniac]

Medic: *is countered by everyone* _gets über_ "Oh how the turn tables"

[@scatterFr]

Uber is useless unless he is ubering someone

[@1mariomaniac]

@@scatterFr um...ok? That can be true but I don't see your point.

[@scatterFr]

@@1mariomaniac what i am saying is that uber is useless without someone to uber

[@1mariomaniac]

@@scatterFr I still don't see how that's relevant to my comment, plus it can be used as a safeguard to your own life if something goes wrong. (Pop it don't drop it.)

[@scatterFr]

@@1mariomaniac U cant relly turn tables if there is no one to uber

[@megaeliminator3260]

And Demopan counters every class

[@pighater1111]

P Y R O A I R B L A S T

[@UGLYGEFRO]

@@memebot4320 tf2 merceneries doesn't have souls acording to the lore medic stole them and added to himslef this is why they can't stay dead and medic has more then one soul and everytime he dies he just bargains whit the devil and comes back to life

[@keagers_oh_mine1629]

It doesnt even need to be demo, it just needs :PÄÑ

[@pighater1111]

@@keagers_oh_mine1629 *airbasts*

[@keagers_oh_mine1629]

@@pighater1111 oh dear god

[@JinSway]

“Heavy Medic combo counters everyone” Sniper and Spy: Hold my jarate and cigarette

[@eh2587]

Also:A demo medic combo would destroy them, scout or soldier could atleast trade their life for the medic's, a full reved up brass beast heavy would destroy them even without a medic, pyro can airblast them away, level 3 sentrys have a massive minigun resistance. Not as big as the minigun resistance of the mvm tanks but still

[@Franzsty]

Depends on the skill level a good heavy can't get stabbed easily and a good medic normally usé vaccinator to quite the sniper counter obviously a 20 Hours heavy and a 15 Hours medic are ni problem but a good medic and a good heavy can make a giga counter (im a main heavy with 400 Hours on the class)

[@ranigurungkushwaha1725]

Hold my 100 percent Uber charged Medi gun

[@Brass319]

@@eh2587 heavy can easily destroy sentries if the engineer places them in a spot where weird map geometry lets him shoot it without getting shot by it

[@Brass319]

As a heavy main and a medic main, spy does not work as a counter against such a combo if either one of them are pulling their weight. Sniper however... The most effective way to avoid dying to a sniper is just to uninstall the game, otherwise accept the fact that you are going to get headshot several times each round if there's a competent sniper on the enemy team

[@Jessie_Helms]

Uber medic counters everyone *except* for pyro. Pyro is a hard counter for Uber medic (except when using the Phlog).

[@cinex20]

Against ubered Medic alone - sure, but against a combo - you're very likely to die. Also, the Quick-fix completely counters airblast.

[@Jessie_Helms]

Cinex true, but that’s vulnerable to everything else. QuickFix leaves you vulnerable. I used to main medic (and still play him a ton) & have really taken up pyro lately. If a combo is focused on something a pyro can take advantage, it just depends on skills.

[@laddershuffle9998]

wel that means that you wont have a problem XDD

[@guy3nder529]

don't forget the dragon's fury. also pyro doesnt guarantee the possibility of an uber deny, just makes it possible. not really a hard counter.

[@andraskovacs5431]

Demo and Soldier are also a soft counter against über Medic except if he use quick fix then he is hard counter for all of the three and countered by engineer.

[@magicmissile7533]

4:40 I just love seeing those little skits that you can witness in TF2, the innocence in both of the players and stuff

[@혜성-j3c]

Engi with sentry : looks strong but actually is weak Engi without sentry : looks weak but stronger that you think Engi with mini-sentry : looks weak but annoying and strong and high re-buildable thing is combined. It means *RUN*

[@ME0WMERE]

_I have a _*_shotgun_*

[@fireprober8945]

I have a *red tape recorder*

[@BlackMoonlight759]

“What kind of defense is this?!” “I AM THE DEFENSE”

[@Villager6883]

He said Razorback. diamondback*

[@Garykem8]

@@BlackMoonlight759 can someone kill the uncle Dane wannabe

[@SilentIsles]

I know this was months ago but I can't believe you missed the fact that pyro hard counters demoknight.

meh not real haerd counters since his should makes it have almost 0 afterburn dmg

[@eh2587]

@ Airblast. When talking about a demo knight without booties then things get a little complicated

[@johnrandall8010]

Fire counters knight too

[@brody2611]

@@eh2587 that’s hybrid knight, also a pyro could also reflect the grenade launcher

[@adityamaram6293]

@@brody2611 the grenade launcher fires faster than a pyro can airblast

[@張維哲-q2z]

A heavy with medic counters everyone in the game A phlog pyro with medic breathes heavily in the corner

[@noakinn]

Heavy medics are easy to counter. Especially with pyro with the ability to airblast.

[@vbgvbg1133]

kritz rocketjumper op

[@jaredsmith1998]

How to deal with a heavy medic combo -3 engies -another medic -a pyro from behind the corner

[@TaintedNimbus]

@@jaredsmith1998 Cool so we'll just use around half our team to kill 1/6th of their's. Great team plan, can't wait to get screwed afterwards.

[@jaredsmith1998]

Tainted Nimbus It was 3 different methods lol

[@thor_father8737]

Toofty: "Unless your a god at airblasting" LazyPurple as Pyro: "Hold my beer"

[@marakalos3838]

Our example to follow as Pyro mains

[@OGRapture]

LazyPurple is a TF2 Main xD

[@darrenaqilawangsech8652]

Sketchek: "I am 4 parallel universes above you"

[@r3io4mf]

gotta protect my baby

[@raymondhmuifoo11]

Kristianma and Sketchek*

[@sebastianrahbek4931]

With those "situational" counters like scout vs demoknight and pyro vs sniper, couldn't you say that they both soft-counter each other? So they both have transparant sculls against each other on the diagram. Because they can both exploit the other's weakness.

[@1un4cy]

"Pocketed heavy counters everyone in the world" Spy&Sniper: Say hello to me little friend!

[@slicedbread3659]

yeah, and in mid-range, heavy can make sniper flinch.

[@dinonuggiesguy4847]

**Explodes**

[@ink3487]

Vaccinator go brrrrr

[@Technotoadnotafrog]

Only if Quick Fix or Kritzkrieg

[@ohno4973]

For sniper i just try to instinctively crouch For spy: *just turn around*

[@3van660]

Imo heavy is a strong counter to pyro, he melts the pyro and is in relatively good shape afterwards especially as he can just eat a sandvich and be at full health

[@Jamseth_Ingramious]

In a straight-up fight, yes. But with pyro’s mobility, he can flank the heavy and deal a lot of damage before he can get his minigun readied.

[@hmmm4989]

@@Jamseth_Ingramious *laughs in brass beast*

[@randomplaceinruralamerica9618]

Strong counter is stretching it, if Pyro if heading a heavy head on then that pyro will be dead while Heavy will be at good shape but if Heavy gets flanked from the side or behind the Heavy is either dead or in bad shape. If a Pyro is close enough when it starts shooting then the Heavy won’t be able to ready and turn in before the Pyro skirts around him. Now this is in a one on one situation which isn’t likely, a Heavy will most likely be at the center of the map meaning team mates will be at the ready for either side so while Pyro may take the Heavy down he’ll be in a pretty bad shape and get finished by a opposing class.

[@justdem1490]

@@hmmm4989 *Laughs in degreaser and panic attack*

[@hmmm4989]

@@justdem1490 idk why I even made my comment, maybe I didn't know the brass beast was slower. OR I mistook it with the tomislav. I was new back then.

[@peterisawesomeplease]

I would add. Scout soft counters pyro. Heavy soft counters soldier. And the biggest one demo counters heavy. But the real issue here is that some classes excel 1v1 some in groups. Some classes excel in the open some in close spaces. These traits are often much stronger than class vs class dynamics. Also pyro is kinda a special class who acts more like medic in the sense that they provide utility and special plays more than counters.

[@SSGFatty]

Big agree.

[@rompevuevitos222]

Heavy counters soldier? hahaha, sure, you clearly haven't played enough to get instakilled by a crocket, you know, what happens when soldiers just hold down click at the capture point

[@rompevuevitos222]

@Jonald Grump When Random crits is so prevalent that weapons are balanced around it, you can't talk about balance without them

[@AngelSamael]

Scout vs Pyro is mostly a matter of circumstance and skill. On open ground the Scout can keep his distance but in closed-in environments the pyro can air-blast the scout into a corner unless the scout is so skilled that he can aim his gun whilst being air-blasted but if he's completely disorientated by airblasts then the Pyro stands a chance on open ground if the scout gets too close. Soldier can peak a Heavy from a substantial range so it's not a hard counter. Demo mostly just counters a heavy who sticks to the cart. Also Pyro can act a flanker but a Pyro acting as point-defense will hard counter a flanking pyro because he'll have his team to break the dead-lock of W+M1 battles.

[@cephery8482]

NANCOK you haven’t played enough to learn your rollout and then get hard tracked by a heavy and get shredded out of the air.

[@Lyliphe]

No one: Medic mains: The ubersaw > Everyone

[@Derp12]

Theyre not wrong

[@vbgvbg1133]

No One: Spy mains: “If you could use the deadringer as skillfully as i do, you could be better than everyone, like me ohohohoho”

[@warblenoise]

Nobody memes are barely jokes

[@warblenoise]

@@vbgvbg1133 Same goes for you, tizmoid

[@haivu7496]

Alice Margatroid R A N D O M C R I T

[@emmyhastoast2847]

ah yes, my favourite league of legends character, tjorbjorn

[@jeffreychen1045]

Personally I prefer legolas

[@aaronking2020]

The best character is either R2-D2 or Groot

[@KikinCh1kin]

I think gambit is the best league character

[@rageixi1422]

@@jeffreychen1045 I think it's lego-lass

[@acardboardbox9386]

I prefer bu uh uhh

[@tameronica]

Here’s a dumb little story of me playing “Sentry Heavy” Once on Upward, I was using the brass beast and sitting next to a levels one dispenser and shooting people. It was fun until I heard “I am fully charged!” on the other team. Then, I saw an Uber Pyro with his pocket medic coming right towards me. Since I was having fun role playing as a sentry gun, I just continued to shoot at the Uber Pyro. He then pulled out her melee and started wacking me. Their Uber ran out so I murdered The Pyro and the medic just ran for his life. After that, I thought of calling my friend on discord and getting him to play engie and build a dispenser for me to be “Sentry Heavy” again.

[@someguy1716]

Lol

[@darrenaqilawangsech8652]

"Sentry goin' up!" "YATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATA!'

[@raptordoniv6779]

Heavy may not outsmart bullet But he outsmart Uber

[@milokaaa1827]

The fact that you're trying to leave pyro's gender unknown made me happy

[@gabrielheinz6845]

An image of Sentry Heavy from Lazypurple kicks in defeating a soldier offscreen.

[@leferraille7207]

The higher level of play you are in, The more the counter relies on skill rather than the class itself.

[@dominusempyreus2383]

Yes, exactly. Nice way of putting it.

[@rompevuevitos222]

Since when do crit rockets require skill?

[@justanalias5642]

@@rompevuevitos222 thats why in comp there are no random crits

[@rompevuevitos222]

@@justanalias5642 So everyone agrees that crits are not balanced and they refuse to remove them? this comunity really has problems I mean, they remove an entire aspect around wich weapons are "balanced" and they still fail to see the issue with said aspect

[@blue-se3kc]

@@rompevuevitos222 noone uses those weapons tho

[@massiveidiot77]

I think tf2 doesn't have as much counters as you think it does. Sure, engie obviously > scout, but for things like sniper > pyro the line becomes blurry and is best described as 8:00 Sniper does not have anything that specifically counters pyro other than his range which can apply to anyone when their far away from him. This can also be twisted in the opposite, if the pyro is close to the sniper, does that make pyro the counter to sniper? I think it is more like this: A class can counter ANYONE if the situation is in their favour. For example, spy can theoretically be a counter to pyro if the pyro has no reason to believe there's a spy near him hence being an easy target for spy. This is because stealth is spys strength

[@guy3nder529]

good point. although in for example pyro vs sniper unlike other classes pyro just stops doing damage at a certain range. remember that counters are about an overall advantage. no one can win just because they have a good counter. yeah it is especially true in tf2 as was already mentioned in the video but there are still bound to be statistically some advantages between classes, and some are also put in on purpose.

[@vbgvbg1133]

Spy if not noticed can counter anything except uber. If nobody notices the spy, the spy kills everyone. however, if the spy is noticed, he will die quickly unless he escapes, or is Starykrow or Swipez.

[@guy3nder529]

@@vbgvbg1133 yeah every class can kill the entire team if nobody notices them. You either have a good flank route where you're better off with scout or something, or you walk through the enemy team which should have been spy checking all this time.

[@vbgvbg1133]

Guy Ender Yeah. However, most people would notice taking damage. Spy is the most dangerous class if unnoticed, but the easiest to deal with, unless its Starykrow or Swipez

[@YaBoiDoc]

massive idiot Darwin’s danger shield strong counters pyro

[@br4ss_crusader973]

random crits: counter every class vaccinator: counter random crits melee crits: counter vaccinator

[@BongBong-Gaming]

Air blast can kinda counter everything here. Random crit projectile > air blast Vac medic > air blast Melee > air blast

[@lex0h2]

​@@BongBong-Gaming Random crit hitscan > airblast

[@vulture6068]

Uber > Random crits (including melee) Airblast > Uber

[@FriggnH8ters]

5:03 Red medic heals blu soldier. Toofty: wait that’s illegal

[@Arslan35]

@Pikachu is cun kinda r/woooosh

[@cultleaderofmonke4758]

@@Arslan35 well it is actually a red spy and we do get the joke.

[@Arslan35]

@@cultleaderofmonke4758 _kinda_

[@cultleaderofmonke4758]

@@Arslan35 how so?

[@Arslan35]

@@cultleaderofmonke4758 you need to explain to urself

[@yoot9868]

I think these diagrams are fairly accurate, however in competitive play it changes a bit. Pyro is rarely run since skilled scouts completely shut him down from a distance, making him less viable.

[@kevinhuen1380]

It's a bit situational, especially in regards to player skill and environment; Against less skilled Scouts, Pyro can be a real threat since the flamethrower and its after burn can chew through Scout's small health pool very quickly. It takes a competent scout to get around this; in tight spaces, Pyro usually wins since Scout has less room to maneuver

[@niemanickurwa]

It _is_ situational, but this is also what the Thermal Thruster is for. The week it came out I said it's a game changer, and only now am I starting to see people use it properly... after copying me mostly

[@eyeswithoutaface8140]

Sniper: *laughs in 150 dmg quickscope shot at 2 feet away from a scout* all your heads look 12 feet tall

[@thegunnitgamer5716]

Heavy: *Laughs in vaccinator medic making your fully charged headshot do a whopping 38 damage*

[@anstorner]

When i saw Spy as an known counter i laughed so hard, because Jarate Bushwacka w1 + m1

[@cinex20]

From my Pyro experience: Scout: good against Pyro, but is very likely to die, if he enters the flamethrower's range. Soldier: same as in the video. Pyro: shotgun for the win. Demoman: I often find Demo as a counter to Pyro. His grenade launcher has lower attack interval than the airblast and the stickies are the only reflectable projectiles, that don't get neutralized by airblast. Heavy: good against Pyro, but very likely to die, if he gets ambushed. Engineer: yes, Pyro sucks against sentries by himself, but he can reflect its rockets to kill the Engie. He can also use the Panic Attack to quickly destroy mini-sentries, that the Engineer puts down when he retreats. Medic: Pyro counters stock uber and crit-boosted Soldiers and Demos, but gets shut down by the Quick-fix. He is fairly good against Vaccinator, since he can use both fire and bullets and has a strong arsenal of melee weapons. Sniper: same as in the video. Spy: toast.

[@idkidkidk123]

Honestly from playing pyro, I find that besides heavy and a good sniper, a decent scout is a very good counter, even if they do get in range of your flamethrower, as soon as you whip out your flare gun they don't stop jumping a good scout will usually evade you

[@michaelbesser5348]

@@idkidkidk123 Scout is one of the cases where I'd recommend going Shotgun. Yes, high-level Scouts are hard to hit with a Flaregun, but the Shotgun makes things a bit more even. It's basically a slightly worse Scattergun, but you have more health and the Scout may or may not be on fire.

[@Xhelah207]

I agree but also Pyros are great against demoknights though, at least if you can airblast them when they try to charge Also the weapons from the jungle inferno update can change this too as the jetpack can make you get pretty close to a sniper and the flamethrower has an absurd longer range

[@boomeronet7888]

@@Xhelah207 but you need to aim, and the only reason most people play pyro is to not have to aim!

[@zeal7895]

Spy: Burnt Baguette

[@Naleksuh]

0/10 didn't put pyro at the top of the food chain

[@humbletom49]

*laughs in competitive*

[@iambumbo7534]

*laughs in casual*

[@jyosh5909]

*laughs in community servers*

[@IntrovertedGamerwhoplays]

*_laughs in all game classes_*

[@humbletom49]

@@danforce4222 2pockets means less uber

[@pandachong7942]

“Heavy pocketed by a medic hard counters everyone” Me: Demoman pocketed by a medic destroys them, demoman without a medic can still probably 1v2 them. Sniper counters them. Spy counters them. Soldier can at least drop the medic. Heavy doesn’t output enough damage to take down a sentry if the engineer is skilled with the wrangler.

[@YaBoiDoc]

Panda Chong Pyro can also airblast them away

[@pandachong7942]

Boba Fett there’s a lot of others things I didn’t mention as well.

[@eh2587]

Another thing:a fully reved up brass beast heavy alone would destroy them unless they have uber

[@oknoarguement1804]

1:10 that spy's ragdoll reminded me of the vine "we back at it a gain at Krispy Kreme

[@cloverlovania]

spy: BACK AT IT AGAIN AT RED'S BREAD spy: *jumps into the sign, dies and turns blu*

[@majinchu6938]

I was honestly waiting for someone to make this video. Idk who, but someone. And you did it! Thanks dude!

[@Toofty]

No probs, glad you enjoyed!

[@Polyglot_English]

**Like** if you speak more than one language! Если **РУССКИЙ** ставь лайк!

[@freezy3739]

Me too

[@Dat1TDEnjoyer]

@@Polyglot_English bot!

[@biaxolotl5171]

Where’s medic? I guess everyone knows he counters everyone. Syringe gun is definitely the best weapon in the game

[@akaten5063]

ah yes syringe gun the advanced nail gun and a mini minigun for medic it deal high DPS for some reason its overshadowed by crossbow >:( why? syringe is gud why hey pick crossbow are they META dude or Medick

[@hmmm4989]

The syringe gun is OP. It needs to have a range of 100 hammer units, do 1 damage, and have the fire rate of a sniper rifle.

[@akaten5063]

@@hmmm4989 yeah OP and Trash in same time I mean OP in melee range and tRash in Long range

[@carbon8ed]

Personal revisions: Demo can counter heavy pretty easily whenever there's an ounce of cover to hide behind (even with a medic). Heavy hard counters pyro, pyro cant approach a revved up heavy easily (at all) and even if you catch him unrevved he can still rev up, kill you, and be left with enough time to eat a sandwich. Pyro has at best an even matchup with soldier if the soldier has a shotgun. Not even a soft counter at that point. Spy is too easy to consistently play around to be considered a significant counter to anything. Heavy is not countered by spy and has at worst an even matchup, at best heavy is doing the countering being the second best spychecker in the game. The mere existence of the razorback gives a sniper or his team enough time to react and kill a spy. I'll concede that Engie is soft countered by spy but only in the sense that he can disable a sentry long enough for a demo/soldier to kill it. Heavy counters scout harder than many people want to admit. Sniper counters himself. Pyro counters demoknight.

[@someguythatusestheinternet7810]

Pyro: hard counters: spy, medic, demoknight/hybrid anyone at close range (unless they are a heavy), ubercharged classes (except phlogs and quickfix uber) Soft counters: sniper without the cozy camper (detonator or any flaregun), shortstop scouts at close range (huge knockback added)

[@idkidkidk123]

I would also like to add, a decent scout vs a decent pyro will most likely result in a scout win, I'd say its at least a soft counter

[@groundsalt2199]

I disagree with the Razorback. The soy has a revolver

[@waynesanford2869]

Trolldier (a meme subclass almost as common as demoknight): Counters sniper, medic, and gunslinger engie. Is countered by heavy, scout, normal soldiers (soft, the rest are hard counters in my experience), demo (of all flavors), and other engies. This assumes all players involved in the matchup are of approximately equal skill. Just spitballing.

[@thedripcritic9379]

You can ambush with the backburner while they arent revved up.

[@paulbraley7179]

How to hard counter demoknight: right click with your primary weapon as pyro.

[@Nachachus]

Hoo boi, I can't wait to use my P H L O G primary to kill a demoknight

[@vbgvbg1133]

*_p h l o g_*

[@ouberfox5898]

Paul Braley as not really

[@AlanElChato]

The TF2 Food Chain but Everytime Toofty says "counter" you take a shot.

[@kanzkat420]

The TF2 Food Chain but you get an alcohol-induced coma

[@DanX2M]

The tf2 food chain but I’m going to the hospital

[@Dedprotectr]

The only thing I can really disagree with off the bat is pyro-demoknight. What makes Pyro so strong, really, against spy is Pyro's ability to deny a melee class's range. If Pyro did not have airblast spy would be a bit more devastating. But Pyro's ability to safely push away a class and damage them from a short, but decent distance makes pyro an almost guarenteed winner when going up against a demoknight

[@zath6425]

As for demoknight and his counters in general, I'd say he hard counters spy, trolldier, and Vaccinator medics. He also soft counters scout and demoMAN. He is absolutely hard countered, and by that I mean completley shut down by heavy, sentry guns, and Pyro (if he can airblast properly.) He's also soft countered by sniper, scout, and Soldier. Demoknight needs to get in melee range of his opponent, that is his primary weakness. His shield charge, resistances, and increased melee range help compensate for that weakness. Any class that can nullify those advantages by either outdamaging Demoknight at melee range (Heavy, sentries, Scout.) or by making it impossible for him to get in range in the first place (Heavy, sentries, scout, sniper, pyro, soldier.) can effectively shut him down if they know what they are doing. However, if he gets in melee range it's only a matter of time before he kills you.

[@busterofballsack]

Natasha heavy

[@Gencrossbones]

If it's a samurai demo vs samurai demo or soldier it's a matter of time of who hits first but if its eyelander demoknight then the best counter is don't let him get heads (look at the eyes)

[@meeperdudeify]

Curious how demoknight hard counters spy and trolldier?

[@Gencrossbones]

@@meeperdudeify because they move fast. And remember trolldiers cant hit you if you're out of their melee range. Spies also the same thing. It's hard to kill a pro demoknight who has a lot longer range on his melees

[@zath6425]

@@meeperdudeify Demoknight can completely outrange spy, and unless you're a god at trickstabs he's going to kill you in 2 hits. Trolldier only has one powerful attack up his sleeve, if a Demoknight has some heads rolling they're going to survive the crit swing or dodge it entirely.

[@Ducco2]

5:00 That kinda reminded me of the "Good night girl, see ya tomorow" meme Also a few seconds before he said "Raining down death"

[@mlgproplayer2915]

*[Hear Charging scream at the distance]* >Screen shakes >Crit sound You are ded, not big soup rice. Demonight is a light counter to everything except Engie, Heavy and some experienced Pyros in my opinion.

[@dominusempyreus2383]

I guess it depends on if it's pure demoknight or hybrid knight. Ironically, soldiers and demomen generally have more movement options due to their ability to jump with explosions. They can typically (read as: not necessarily easily and very situationally) escape a demoknight if they're not empty on ammo - soldier especially, since he can pull off a rocket jump more quickly. Demoknight is odd; he's an ambush class like pyro, but relies even more on being unexpected due to unreliable melee hitreg and his sheer lack of range or countering tools against hyper-mobile offensive/explosive opponents like soldier or demoman. One could argue that the explosion resistance on some shields gives him a slight upper hand, but with the lack of projectiles, he's way more vulnerable to zoning and becomes ultra-reliant on his charge to close the gap. He's like pyro on hard mode. Then there's hybrid knight, which is more versatile and would add another paragraph to this already massive wall of text had I no self-restraint and more time. Then there's stuff like jumping on exploding pills to achieve an effect similar to sticky jumping, and AAAAAAAGHHH WHY IS THIS SO COMPLICATED

[@thepurityofchaos]

@@dominusempyreus2383 and then trimping becomes a thing.

[@lemons1559]

I'd say that soldier and scout in the open can just run away and make it someone else's problem and if the demoknight has 5 heads a heavy is an easy kill as shield+crit

[@notsuperwarm]

I like how you added demoknight as another class

[@kpopstanfan_5124]

What makes Soldier deadly is not that he is super effective against every other class, rather that he has no major exploitable weakness.

[@ximnl17]

get on a higher ground than the soldier

[@revvedandrunning]

Pyro for sure counters Demoknight because of the airblast which can corner him while he's on fire, this is extremely difficult to get out of if you have 2 pyros constantly airblasting you into a corner, or one airblasting you, and the other constantly dosing you in flame.

[@The-Blue-Knight]

I think heavy is good against all, but sniper and spy. 10:30 👌

[@blazer1820]

Not really depends on who your playing against. Heavy can easily be taken down by a demo from mid range

[@The-Blue-Knight]

@@blazer1820 I beg to differ, a heavy can easily maneuver around pills at mid range. Obviously skill affects performance. Any class can take down any class as long as someone has the skill to do so. I play heavy all the time, no class poses much of a threat other than spy's or snipers in my opinion/gameplay.

[@putridmoldyman306]

Spies and snipers are the biggest threat A really good scout can be really annoying to deal with though.

[@The-Blue-Knight]

@@putridmoldyman306 just gotta have good tracking ;) If all else fails, Natasha.

[@peterisawesomeplease]

In comp semi competent demo destroys heavy. By heavies actually become soft counters to spies.

[@tylerpeterson3281]

The demo knight vs scout comparison is a tricky one, for example a freshly spawned eye-lander demo can be an easy pick for a scout, but one with max heads can out-run a scout making him an easy pick, other influencing factors like shield choice and melee choice can really mix that up even more, tide turner charge focused demoknights/hybrid knights tend to do best out of the gate

[@xenit7837]

Whenever I think of making a table, I always make the medic slot how well he synergizes with the class for example Starting the match scout is a great pocket giving you a faster rollout while building Uber On the point on defense a heavy is a great heal target because he just won't die with good awareness As a medic main I use every medigun except for vacc and when I use kritz pyros are good on defense and decent on offense You can have a pocket soldier or demo to screw over engineers Spy uhhhhhhhhhhhhh....... Overheal snipers so they can survive a quick scope headshot Healing engineers gives them the capability to survive rocket spam towards there sentry guns and ubering them while they carry the gun is an invincible sentry Healing other medics give them similar benefits but instead of rockets and a sentry it's whoever they're pocketing so they can stay with their pocket for longer periods Just easy to give info like this is how I'd graph medic

[@YatzeeWillWearAGreenHat]

So, my opinion on this: When it comes to the food chain, you should remove Demoknight if you say "only stock" ,because Demoknight is made out of alternative weapons and you can't say what "Stock Demoknight " should be (that's why you have troubles choosing Scout as counter or not) Medic should be seperated into 2 states: ubered and normal. (normal gets counterd by everyone and ubered counters everyone)

[@guy3nder529]

medic was ubered but good point with demoknight. although i would remove demoknight because demoknight is while tons of fun, a bit shit. also what kind of demoknight can give scout trouble?

[@YatzeeWillWearAGreenHat]

@@guy3nder529 a demoknight with 4 heads on his eyelander can outspeed even a fully charged baby face blaster (dont forget the shield charge) and can survive several meatshots without problem, while Scout dies after 2 hits

[@guy3nder529]

@@YatzeeWillWearAGreenHat 2 meatshots. and thats 6% base speed. you should have enough time to put in 3 shots with proper positioning. also not that it really matters but a baby faces gets to the speed of a demoknight at ~70% if my math is right, although baby faces is shit so who cares. #vlvpls

[@wraithdino1217]

heavy + medic counters everyone you say? *tf2 spy would like to know your location*

[@flux9122]

*Ubercharge would like to destroy your explaination*

[@wraithdino1217]

@@flux9122 *I would like to see you pop that Uber with a knife in your back* -A big earner spy(yes I know its shit but i mean chainstab)

[@lahar2412]

*fully charged headshot would like to know your location.*

[@focus6657]

"Heavy being pocketed by a medic counters everyone" Sniping is a good job mate

[@gliscornumber151]

I think that pyro is a hard counter to demo knight because of the combination of air last and fire damage

[@spaghettitime1124]

Honestly, I'd say that Pyro is a fairly decent counter to Demoknight as well. Considering how it relies on getting into melee range, a competent pyro who knows how to time his airblasts is able to basically keep a demoknight at bay on their own.

[@Scylaite]

Swipez be like Spy eats everything

[@vbgvbg1133]

Swipez > literally everyone

[@rustyrodgers7566]

3:58 I think the person who wrote that was talking about a ‘counter’, as in counterattack or a response to an attack. The soft counter I think you are talking about is something that partially nullifies or is somewhat good against something else, like you said pyros air blast and soldier.

[@QuokkaCore]

“If a Pyro and a Heavy get in a 1v1 the Heavy will be in a bad spot.” Almost every competent Heavy uses the sandvich, even if the Heavy is at 30 HP and on fire, he’s just gonna pull his Sandvich out and tank all the afterburn.

[@Kohchu]

Honestly, for me: It's always been a case of this: Class -> Good Against (effectiveness: Hard = good against, Light = Decent against) -> Bad Against (Risk: Hard = Counters, Light = slows down) -> Neutral Against Scout -> Demo (hard), Sniper (light), Spy (light), Medic (hard) -> Engineer (hard), Heavy (light) -> Pyro, Scout, Soldier, Demoknight Soldier -> Medic (light), Engineer (hard) -> Heavy (light), Sniper (light) -> Scout, Soldier, Pyro, Demo, Spy, Demoknight Pyro -> Spy (hard), Pyro (light), Demo (light), Demoknight (hard) -> Heavy (hard), Engineer (hard), Sniper (light) -> Scout, Medic, Soldier Demo -> Heavy (light), Engineer (hard), Soldier (light) -> Scout (hard), Pyro (light), Demoknight (hard), Spy (light) -> Sniper, Medic, Demo Heavy -> Scout (light), Pyro (hard), Demoknight (hard) -> Spy (hard), Sniper (hard), Demo (light) -> Soldier, Heavy, Medic Engineer -> Scout (hard), Demoknight (hard), Pyro (hard) -> Soldier (hard), Demo (hard), Spy (hard), Sniper (light), Medic (hard) -> Heavy Medic -> All -> All -> Medic Sniper -> Sniper (hard), Heavy (Hard), Pyro (light), Medic (hard), Engineer (light), Soldier (light), Demo (light) -> Sniper (hard), Spy (light), Scout (light), Demoknight (light) -> All Spy -> Heavy (hard), Engineer (hard), Medic (light), Sniper (hard) -> Pyro (hard), Demoknight (light), Scout (hard), Soldier (light) -> Demo, Spy I find most classes in TF2 have a large amount of potential to outclass everyone around them, but it feels less like extreme counterplays, and more like there are some classes you know you can take, some you might be able to take; and some you try to only attack if you know they are low. And as a result, there's really not much counterplay going in TF2; it's more fun to watch as the situations get more hectic to see "who will come out on top?"

[@sankdom4598]

I think pyro is a hard counter to demo knight because a decent pyrom won’t take any damage from one

[@khou0]

In my opinion (this is assuming all the classes have their stock loadouts): Scout soft-counters spy and hard-counters sniper. But he is soft-countered by soldier, pyro, and hard-countered by engie. Soldier soft-counters scout and engie. But he is also soft-countered by pyro and heavy. Pyro soft-counters scout, soldier, demo, and hard-counters spy. But he is soft-countered by sniper and hard-countered by heavy. Demo soft-counters heavy and hard-counters engie. But he is soft-countered by pyro, sniper, and spy. Heavy soft-counters soldier and hard-counters pyro. But he is soft-countered by demo and spy, and hard-countered by sniper. Engie hard-counters scout and pyro. But he is soft-countered by soldier and spy, and hard-countered by demo. Medic is hard-countered by everyone (except other medics) without uber, but hard-counters everyone (especially engies) with it. Sniper soft-counters pyro and hard-counters demo and heavy. But he is hard-countered by scout and spy. Spy soft-counters heavy and engie and hard-counters sniper. But he is soft-countered by scout and hard-countered by pyro.

[@kushine_]

might sound weird but the sniper counters other snipers

[@logroll2353]

Zachary Bell What a stupid comment. Every class counters it’s mirror class. A better soldier beats a worse soldier, a better scout beats a better soldie r

[@kushine_]

yes but sniper counters other snipers more

[@peylgrey]

I believe any ubered class vs pyro is two options: a soft or hard counter. This depends on map and positioning. If they aren’t near any Instant death areas, than all pyro can do is survive and stall out the Uber, thus making a soft counter. If they are near an insta-death area, pyro can air blast them off the map and kill the Uber and the players, thus making a hard counter.

[@jjprs3062]

4:42 This just freaks me out. If you had been half a second or so late to turning around again, you would've believed that spy. That's some real horror movie shit right there

[@NovaAge]

A better use of the hard and soft counter terms I have found is direct vs indirect; the Darwin's Danger Shield is a hard counter to pyros as its primary purpose is to directly counter pyros, whereas Demoman is a soft counter Heavy as his high DPS is just happens to matter a ton against Heavy.

[@SteveOnlin]

4:40 this is so fucking hilarious

[@yesno9075]

lol, pyro gets stabbed after actin like a spy

[@MrMcMedium]

Demoknight vs scout is interesting. Who counters who i feel is largely based on how the scout reacts to it.

[@ET-oq1vj]

i think that, in a similar way that pyro has a small advantage against soldier, soldier has a small advantage against scout

[@itzeer1251]

Engineer: Isn't countered by pyro Pyro: *Laughs in reflected sentry rockets*

[@faffywaffy8872]

Imagine taking a shitload of sentry damage just to reflect rockets that the sentry can tank easily.

[@waaave564]

the knight versus scout dillemma is probably based off of the map. with scout, you can easily escape a knight if there's plenty of space, but as a knight, if there's very little space, you can charge through and demolish a scout.

[@Xanwich]

7:55 depends on if he’s using eyelander and has 4 heads (or just charge)

[@harsterl]

blutsager battle medic has worked out for me way more than it shouldve

[@h.a.z.m.a.t5072]

This shows how good and complex the balancing of this game is

[@hobg5786]

I think this is an interesting topic for discussion. Perhaps if you were ever thinking of doing a more comprehensive look at dynamics between classes, you could try interviewing players who main (and have much experience on) each class, because I think that would help to remove considering weapon loadouts even in the complex look. My thinking is that someone who plays so much of a class can see another class more generally, considering the wider scope of play outside a loadout.

[@jarjarbingbong]

As a Pyro main, I’d say Heavy is a soft counter to Pyro. Even above a nest, a Heavy will eat me for breakfast. Can I kill a heavy? Absolutely. But unlike a sentry, I can’t reflect the rockets, juke it out easily, go while it’s sapped, etc. A well prepped heavy can absolutely demolish me and I will stay away and only the absolute worst of heavies are of relatively little concern.

[@michaelswain868]

One thing I'd say is try pyro dragons fury... completely changes the class you counter engis, demos and scouts pretty fucking well with just your sheer damage output and the considerable increase in range all be that making you just skim into the mid range category.... You do however somewhat lose some efficacy against spies and air blasts are painful.... Can be done but it certainly isn't the ideal weapon to be doing so. I do think Dragons Fury is not only underrated but also a legitimate subclass that changes the game mode of pyro more drastically than the huntsman does the sniper setting aesthetics aside and with the exception of demo knight I would argue the most drastic change in playstyle and the most impactful change to strengths and weaknesses possible for a class to pick up.

[@johannesneumayer6041]

I think a good way of distinguishing hard and soft counters is by comparing them to counters and checks in competitive Pokemon. A counter is something that can switch in and get the kill, while a check can only do so when not having to switch in first. In TF2, a counter would therefore be a class, that can always reliably kill another one, wheras checks only have the upper hand when setting up an engagement on their own terms.

[@liftedspirit984]

I definitely don't think the wheel is overly complicated; I think it's a nice way to look at it

[@ultrawinggaming9764]

As a Pyro Main... In a 1v1 setting. Heavy usually stomps the Pyro, However there are tricks a Pyro can do to turn the match-up in their favor. The Degreaser Panic attack combo, tricky movement, or ambushing. So yea. Heavy Soft countering Pyro is Accurate.

[@catz8363]

Short circuit can give you a relatively strong edge against soldiers , but demos switching between pipes and stickies can get overwhelming

[@idaellis81]

1:12 those spy’s rag doll was amazing

[@rory8182]

9:04, pyro heavy dynamic depends on if the pyro knows his movement and if he has the panic attack degreaser combo

[@eh2587]

Preety much every 1v1 gets changed if the people know their movement

[@usernametaken017]

Pyro can airblast demoknight away, and with timing can make he not attack you at all

[@snoopy505]

You forget about Pyro air blasting a demoknight

[@andyman9716]

i think an important distinction to make that would clear up some of the iffy ones is range. pyro obviously destroys sniper if he's in flamethrower range but pyro can't do anything really outside of medium range. due to this I would say pyro hard counters sniper at close range and sniper soft counters pyro at medium+ range (headshots are hard okay) - I think this can be applied to most sniper matchups because he gets hard countered at close range by every other class with the exception of engie, medic, or circumstantially spy. there are tons of different circumstances that must be considered, such as if an enemy is aware that spy is there then he gets hard countered by almost every class, but if enemies are oblivious then he hard counters every other class. tons to consider.

[@neeevirus]

Video title: "TF2 Food Chain" Medic: *cries in the corner*

[@meeptowner8440]

Heavy comes over: cry some more!!

[@ryanmaclean1720]

Pyros are a demo knight’s worst nightmare as the air blast completely counters the speed increase and it breaks rule 1 of dealing with pyros: don’t get in their range because they will win. I should know, because I get excited when I see a demo knight charging ahead with no idea that air blast effects players too.

[@akihikosakurai4013]

Even though a lot of class counters are very rock-paper-scissors oriented, they can be bypassed if your skill level is high enough. In most other games you can't do that, or at least it's very difficult to do. But in tf2 a spy can counter a pyro if he's good at trickstabbing or can hit ambassador headshots. A scout can kill a heavy if he's good at moving unpredictably and jumping around the heavy so he can't track him, etc

[@robertmartinez601]

The pyro-heavy matchup entirely depends on how badly the pyro abuses his a and d keys and the heavy's tracking skill, pyro has the best mobility/health ratio in the game so can tank the damage from running through the beam shortly while keeping his flames or shotgun on the heavy. Whereas heavy can't really manuever while revved, he can still follow the pyro with tracking and almost instantly shred him.

[@nathangamble125]

I agree with most of this, but I think there are a few things missing - e.g. Pyro counters demoknight (airblast), demoman soft-counters heavy (innaccurate explosive pipes and sticky traps are especially effective against slow enemies), heavy and soldier soft-counter engie (their high dps lets them kill sentries without taking damage if they have help from good positioning or an ubercharge, and they have a huge advantage in a 1-on-1 fight).

[@lovingryza1755]

For me, the deciding factor between Demoknight and Scout is the Eyelander. With no kills, the Eyelander leaves the Demoknight with less health leaving him more vulnerable, but with a couple heads the Demoknight can keep up with the Scout without even needing to shield charge to close the distance. Also I dare say Spy and Demoknight can counter eachother, a Demoknight can steamroll a Spy if he is vigilant, but a Spy can trick stab a Demoknight if he decides to shield charge at a predictable moment. Also, as for Pyro vs Sniper I feel like it's another interesting case, I love using the Scorch Shot against snipers who decided to be a little too obvious with their placement and take some fire damage and a sneaky Pyro could also flank a Sniper using the jetpack. However a Sniper with the Cozy Camper doesn't flinch and could possibly headshot a Pyro before trying to deal with the afterburn, the Sniper could also use Darwin's Danger Shield to protect himself from Pyro's flames (but then can't protect himself from spies, this is about Pyro but something noteworthy) Sniper also has Jarate, but Pyro has a couple flares while Sniper's Jarate has a cooldown.

[@maxthiel2170]

in my opinion, engineer softcounters every single calss that can get in the range of his sentry gun so all classes ecept spy and sniper

[@BlazingRoman]

(1:59) Spy: *decloaks for 0.00000001 second* Pyro: _"Soap drop, n!gga?"_

[@jamesverner9132]

If you factor in the stock syringe gun with medic you would have a good counter to scout in most cases. Their is even an achievement for kill a scout 500 with the DPS of a needle gun.

[@Kenmiester2012]

As a DemoKnight main, non-phlog Pyros are your secondary counter behind Engies. At least with a Heavy you can stay in their face and run circles around them to disorient them. Pyros can just airblast in your general direction and all your momentum is lost. They also have a situational counter, that being the Sniper. It depends on the Shield, the Demo's Primary, how many heads the Demo has, and the map. A Demoknight with the Splendid Screen or Chargin Targe in the Teufort Sewers will never kill a half-decent Sniper, but a DemoKnight with the Tide Turner on Badwater Basin will have an easy time avoiding Sniper fire. Whether they counter spies and scouts are also very situational. If you're packed in a tight hallway, or a dead end god forbid, the DemoKnight will win every time, especially if the Demo has 4+ heads. Put them in an area where the Scout can maneuver or the Spy can trickstab you, and the Demo never wins.

[@arsonexc]

I'd say Pyro counters medic Uber, same goes for Heavy medic combo, except soft counters instead.

[@Hedning1390]

I think to figure out what counters what think of a game scenario where there's a really good player on the enemy team who is carrying their team. What class would you switch to to save your team from them. If you can save your team from them assuming your skill at the class you chose is equal or lower than their then that's a counter. It can be somewhat map dependent, but if they are crushing your team they are probably on a map where they can do that, so lets assume they are. At equal skill many classes can counter its mirror, so I'm not including those. Main classes and their counters: Soldier: Scout, Pyro, Demo, Sniper Demo: Soldier, Scout, Sniper, (very situationally short circuit engineer and pyro) Scout: Soldier, Natasha heavy, (situationally minisentry engineer) Pyro: Scout, Heavy, Sniper Sniper: Spy Spy: Pyro, soldier, scout Heavy: Heavy, demo, Soldier, Scout, Sniper, Spy. Now for the special cases: Engineer: I've never been in a situation where clearly the engineer is carrying his team (and I have 4000h played according to steam). Engineer needs help from his team to succeed, so he can't carry. Picking a class just to kill his sentry doesn't make sense, because if you fail the push you have not done anything because next time it will be built back up. What we are really talking about is having a good push and then you need good push classes and a medic who won't get sniped. To quickly kill an annoying sentry use direct hit. Vacc medic: Look at what your team has for damage types, especially the second best player. Use a different damage type. Heavy, soldier, demo, pyro, scout, sniper, spy. Pretty much everything works but you need to look at your team. Heavy is the hardest to pick for yourself since you can't follow your team but have to trust that they will follow you when you force the other medic to use bullet protection, but it's great if the second best player go heavy. Also going vacc yourself works.

[@emgee2807]

BIG counter to soldier is the short circuit and Natacha. Short circuit eats his main source of damage, and the Natacha fucks their rocket jumps up.

[@RandomNulls]

A better soft counter example would be a scout with mad milk VS a pyro, the scout takes some fire damage but can use the mad milk to either extinguish himself or try to douse the pyro and counter attack

[@dougthedonkey1805]

I see the scout-demoknight relationship as dependent on whether or not the demo has a speed boost. If they’re using the eyelander and are as fast as a scout, then they’ll have an easy time tearing the Boston boy to shreds. But if they’re regular demo speed, they’ll get demolished from a range

[@N0bdi3]

Now we're talking about human instead of animals I told chain