There are 5 Roles In TF2, Actually

TF2's class categories of "Offense, Defense, and Support" are extremely outdated and in need of a rework. In this video I place the 9 mercenaries into 5 distinct categories to properly represent what each class's strengths, weaknesses, and purpose are.
SFM in Thumbnail - Lobduh (Discord: lobuhboi)

[@giantlactismid5704]

actually, tf2 has 9 classes. Heavy, Soldier, Medic, Demoman, Pyro, Scout, Sniper, Engineer and Spy

[@TooruJJ]

wait fr?

[@John-fs1nr]

@@TooruJJ🗿

[@godiloveexisting1350]

You forgit random

[@Anomalocringe]

​@@godiloveexisting1350 at my house, straight up confusing it. and by it, lets justr say, my forgit

[@complaints_are_met_with_death]

Saxton Hale moment?

[@liliataneva5874]

I think support in valve terms support means you are helping your team but not doing the objective

[@Nilon241]

Literally this. Sniper Spy and Medic's voice responses for the pushing cart, defending a capture point, etc. Specifically mention someone ELSE should be doing it instead of them. "One of you *rough types* ought to stop that bomb" - Sniper. This is Valve saying it's not a support classes' job to work objectives.

[@june9914]

Oh so there’s only support classes in tf2. Nobody seems two want two stand on the point

[@gabet7193]

@@june9914 nobody but gibus F2P heavies and pyros who hug the cart the entire time lmao

[@Anomalocringe]

​@@june9914i hope you miswrote "to" for "two"

[@ZoofyZoof]

@@Anomalocringe It could possibly be autocorrect

[@f145hr3831jr]

The original classification takes into account that TF2 is a game centered around objectives. Offense = gets to objectives and captures them, Defense = guards objectives against enemy pushes, Support = helps the team but rarely intervenes on objectives directly.

[@BallisticChickenYT]

Yeah they don’t mean what team your on🤦 and I think defence should be protecting important holds for your team

[@BallisticChickenYT]

What I mean is that in the video he does them basing on what team they are on not role in the team

[@KAACHOW]

That’s the idea, but the execution is different

[@jamzgatorbutyt6675]

@@BallisticChickenYT you can defend a front line on the offense

[@BallisticChickenYT]

@@jamzgatorbutyt6675 yes I agree

[@ravensflockmate]

actually you see there are 9 roles you'll never guess what they're called

[@epicpro5575]

Cadet, General, Hydro, Full Version, Light, Builder, Nurse, Puncher and Mission Control?

[@igga_hd]

​@@epicpro5575nah bro it's Flanker, Trooper, Arsonist, Annihilator, Brute, Mechanic, Doctor, Marksman and Agent

[@potatobotR2D2]

@@igga_hdcaveman, knight, cowboy, soldier, futuristic era warfare

[@igga_hd]

@@potatobotR2D2 garden warfare

[@KAACHOW]

@@igga_hdsometimes I think that’s the better TF2 game

[@crazikyle]

An interesting thought experiment, but I think that the whole purpose of dividing the classes up the way valve did was to help new players. A new player isn't going to know the difference between "pick", "duelist" or "damage". A new player is going to look at the line up and say "oh hey that scout guy is an offense class, I guess that means I'm supposed to do objectives with him", which while a little basic and outdated in the modern TF2 meta, is the basics of the class. The new player will slowly pick up the skills and learn how to best play scout while attacking objectives. Meanwhile, veteran players probably don't even look at the role of the class. 2007 era Valve was excellent at teaching players how to play the game without a tutorial, and I think the role system is a great example of that.

[@xenotyphon]

Yep. That said, Toruu still brings up good point, so something a little more advanced that accommodates both sides would be to add tags that can be sorted accordingly!

[@YanisBenhayoun]

Valve : attack, defense, support... Community : A T T A C K

[@nahtemii]

*hits head with shovel*

[@newden-dinimation7120]

*RANDOM CRIT-SAW*

[@bouncydachon]

*Widowmaker, Gunslinger*

[@metson4146]

Soldier: ATTAAAaaAAACK!!

[@AnnouncerBox_base]

@@metson4146 Soldier: ATTTAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCKKKKKKKK

[@turtleninja16tn66]

This is why i made a chart for each class: Scout: Supportive Offense Soldier: Offensive Offense Pyro: Defensive Offense Demoman: Offensive Defense Engineer: Supportive Defense Heavy: Defensive Defense Medic: Supportive Support Sniper: Defensive Support Spy: Offensive Support

[@Giosuke_Giogashikata]

Like the DnD alignment chart

[@pancakekraken876]

I literaly made that same chart im glad people feel the same 😅

[@skebapplejefferiso308]

New alignment chart just dropped

[@PoopSqueezenuts]

ive been theorycrafting this too

[@GIZMOGNOM3]

@@skebapplejefferiso308actual categorization

[@OfficialMisterBoo]

0:58 Dude casually has an encounter with an eldritch god and doesn't care

[@gabrielc7861]

I wouldn't caol that a god. It's too weak, and he didn't even react to it. It must've been just a normal abomination.

[@Ralsei_with_a_firearm]

​@@gabrielc7861 it was a god humoring the mortal

[@VersantXv_4]

@@gabrielc7861 How you dare to insult the Gods? they will not forgive you for this

[@TehGrmB33p3r]

​@gabrielc7861 that's it. MODS, take this guys balls.

[@danielsurvivor1372]

0:26 Valve commentary literally perfectly explains why Demo on defense. Area denial, and what other defense class is good at area denial? Oh right, *engineer* another defence class.

[@muti7632]

but in reality he is one most powerful offensive classes aswell if played by a experienced player

[@3than0lvideos22]

engineer with demo is hybrid class so no

[@Nitosa]

​@@muti7632 Don't forget that demo especially early in the game's life had been hit by the most nerfs because of how much he could do offensively & defensive. If you played before the nerfs or on not updated tf2 ( canceled mod r.i.p) He was truly a jack of all trade, master of all.

[@muti7632]

@Nitosa sticky det nerfs? Those were reverted

[@Nitosa]

@@muti7632 reserve ammo, the grenade launcher had a reserve of 30 (now 16) and the sticky launcher had 40 (now 24). It also still exploded on impact after 1 bounce, instead of the timer. I don't count this one, but the pre-release beta also had the clip of the grenade launcher as 6 (now 4) which is why the model has 6 slots but you can only store 4.

[@propangasschnuffle]

Every class has their own role, really

[@averagegamingplayer]

Yeah, I don't say "This team needs more support classes" I instead just pick engineer or med. Or realistically just thinking hoovy would be fun right now.

[@Lawlz4Dayzz]

Thats called a class.

[@thelazyguy72]

​@@Lawlz4DayzzVoice communication is not available for this account

[@This_awesomeguy64]

Yeah for example heavy soaks up the damage for the team allowing squishier classes like scout to attack Medic is well…a healer who keeps the team alive And spy picks off important enemies like medics or snipers

[@TheWhatisthiseven]

7:34 The term "Hero Shooter" was largely invented by Overwatch, and TF2 doesn't really fit that definition. Rather it's what's called a "Class Shooter", like that of the Battlefield series.

[@puffythedestroyer8878]

Whenever I hear someone call TF2 a "hero shooter", I immediately come to the conclusion that person doesn't exist, and was merely a hallucination of my warped imagination. (I'm a tf2 player, so the line between sanity and pootis is razor thin.)

[@tuluflulu]

It's more accurate to call it a villain shooter.

[@damaskuzzz]

fr

[@Bupboy]

I hate the term "hero shooter" cuz not only does it not fit tf2 but it also wasnt even what the genre was called Theyre class based shooters, and i will die on that hill Besides, the mercs are very far from heroes

[@puffythedestroyer8878]

@ both solid points.

[@heartnet40]

TF2's 3 class designations still make a lot of sense if you think of each designation as being it's own umbrella. Offense Scout-True Offense Soldier- Offense/Defense Pyro- Offense/Support Defense Demoman- Defense/Offense Heavy- True Defense Engineer- Defense/Support Support Medic- Support/Offense Sniper- Support/Defense Spy- True Support

[@GTAvROSS]

Good point, though I'd say Medic and Spy's roles are the other way around.

[@YishaiBarr]

​@@GTAvROSS The Uber is used for offence, which is probably why he put it that way.

[@RickJaeger]

I think categorizing Medic with Sniper and Spy is Valve trying to tell players: "DON'T STACK THESE. STOP PICKING THEM. THEY ARE SUPPORTS. YOU DON'T NEED THESE. HALF YOUR TEAM SHOULD NOT BE SUPPORT. STOP PICKING SPY AND SNIPER, THERE ARE PLENTY ALREADY. PLEASE." But maybe that's wishful thinking on my part.

[@origamiman7891]

@@RickJaegerstop stacking? Sure, after the 12th spy

[@kungyangyang4256]

​@@origamiman7891I sure do love exiting spawn and 3 seconds later, I look around and see 12 similar looking scouts of my team

[@darkAwesome100]

You know, I feel like some of these categories are still a bit too broad. I think we can subdivide further. In this essay, I will explain why the mercs actually fall into _9_ distinct classes:

[@no_name_without_name239]

I think that the best way to classify classes is by giving them more than just one role Scout: Duelist/Pick Soldier: Damage/Pick Trolldier: Pure Pick Pyro: Defense/Support Demoman: Damage/Defense Demoknight: Pure duelist Hybridknight: Duelist/Damage Heavy: Defense/Damage Engineer: Support/Defense Battle Engineer: Duelist/Support Medic: Pure Support Sniper: Pure Pick Spy: Pure Pick

[@thanosdevito]

This exactly. Most of the TF2 classes are more than capable of playing multiple roles, so trying to put them into one "class" just doesn't fully describe them.

[@all4ornoth1ng75]

@@thanosdevito it's not necessary, when the game was still in development every new unlockable weapon make its class fit a different playstyle, I would just cancel the "class" and just call the nine "classes"

[@fightingleaf]

@@all4ornoth1ng75 Would it be pedantic to use the term "class" for the 9 mercs and "role" for the, well, role they play on the battlefield?

[@widelia2008]

Murder

[@piogre]

This is pretty spot-on, except I'd put Pyro at Defense/Damage, and Puff-and-Sting at Defense/Duelist

[@redude08]

2:05 A power class is someone with high health, with easily achievable and/or high damage

[@KrzychuAleksina]

so... Just soldier and heavy.

[@redude08]

@KrzychuAleksina Nope. Pyro and Demoman are in this category, I changed my definition to fit them.

[@KrzychuAleksina]

@@redude08 So that would still be about 45 % of the classes in one role. Doesn't make sense. The video is right, although i would merge pick with duelist.

[@redude08]

@KrzychuAleksina Demoman and Pyro are the outliers, I also see Demo very commonly considered a pick class. If it's not Demo, it's Pyro being closer to a support

[@JohnDoe-dd7ne]

Wow, someone actually got Heavy right! As someone who's begun delving into Heavy extensively, not a lot of people recognize him as a defensive powerhouse and try to engage him in Offense similar to other classes, only for his lack of mobility to stuff them. (Cough, cough, Uncle Dane, cough cough, he's not a bad TF2tuber but he did Heavy raw in his video, cough cough)

[@ToonLinkah]

He's not very good at the game and his admin team for Uncletopia protects cheaters

[@tappajaav]

@@ToonLinkah Source: your ass

[@QWERTY708100]

​@@ToonLinkah proof?

[@cewla3348]

@@ToonLinkah have i ever seen a cheater on uncletopia? no. have i ever seen a cheater on casual? hell yes. have i ever seen a cheater on skial? hell yes. have i ever seen a cheater on havfun? hell yes. his servers are the *only* ones without cheaters.

[@Hellom7]

Heavy can actually be very useful on offense

[@potatoweaver4116]

I think generalist might be a better term for Soldier and Demo, calling them the "damage classes" seems off to me because Heavy, Pyro, and Scout are designed to do a lot of damage too. I guess because Soldier and Demo can do splash damage it's easier for them to output damage but I'm not sure how to feel about it.

[@TooruJJ]

20:43 for scout, 6:36 for pyro and heavy. And that whole intro segment about power classes and not lumping them all into one category

[@potatoweaver4116]

@@TooruJJ Yeah i get that and agree with it, just the term I have a hang up with is all. It's entirely an issue with semantics.

[@TooruJJ]

@@potatoweaver4116 I definitely agree generalists are a category that scout, demo and solly fall into but the way scout goes about being a generalist is very different from demo and solly which is why i separated them

[@potatoweaver4116]

@@TooruJJ Sorry I think there is still a misunderstanding. I agree with all 5 roles in the video. I agree with Heavy and Pyro being defense, I agree with Medic and Engi being Support, Sniper and Spy being pick classes and Scout being a duelist. I also agree with Soldier and Demo being in a role together, it's literally the word used to describe their role, that being "damage" that's all. I'm just not fully comfortable with describing their role as damage.

[@TooruJJ]

@@potatoweaver4116 yeah I legit was thinking of a name for 3-4 days, again I thought of assault but I just felt that damage was the best thing that came to my mind

[@joeyrony2887]

Alchemist monkey is under the magic catagory not support. BTD6 has a definition of support similar to TF2 with things like the spike factory, village, and engineer being support

[@TooruJJ]

ik its weird asf, they really went more off of themes rather than functionality, but had to include my goat

[@ReaperGr448]

@@TooruJJ the 0-0-5 Alchemist monkey can outdamage a dark sungod in later rounds.

[@ItsACorpse]

@@TooruJJ imagine doing this video but for btd6

[@TooruJJ]

@@ItsACorpse wait chat, this might be goated

[@sigmawiththeligma7605]

Bells out for btd6

[@tyxant5919]

Personally I think the Duelist category is unnecessary since it only describes the method (he 1v1s people) a role is carried out than the purpose (he picks off specific targets eg medic, bombing soldiers) of the role. Otherwise, while I think the placements of all the classes under your role categorization are accurate, I think it'd be slightly misleading to not mention that a few classes have quite a chunk of their role that falls into the other categories such as Engie with defense (sentries detering enemy advancements), Spy in support (while mostly only a competitive exclusive role, callouts in backlines), and Soldier in pick (bombing key players) Pyro when considering all his unlocks feels like he's designed to be able to fit under all the categories mentioned barring maybe support, although only Pyro can fill the role of damage mitigation (denying uber and spam) so I guess he's fine in strict defense (just that there's the option to forgo that and run backpack backburner)

[@-AAA-147]

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for not calling Scout a pick class.

[@potatoweaver4116]

yeah same, Scout really isn't a pick class and I've never agreed with people who say that. A pick class is supposed to be able to one-shot most or all other classes and be able to do it without engaging in direct combat. Demoknight has pick class aspects to him with his charge attack, but I think Trollider is way more of a pick class than Demoknight because Trolliders get destroyed in direct combat and needs to rely on their crit attack to be effective.

[@concerningindividual]

I don't see why people need to point out that some classes are pick classes anyways...I thought I had to pick ANY class to play them.

[@ChocyAddict]

i would still call him a "pick" class, he is just a more offensively capable one. as tooru calls him a "duelist" that still kinda means he is picking off one after another person. and i quote "his entire shtick is taking isolated duels" you are picking off singular targets kinda like sniper and spy

[@june9914]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@potatoweaver4116is going the equalizer, hiding in cheeky places and just blowing yourself up at enemies a pick subclass? Or running around with jarate/carbine + bushwhacka where you suck at direct combat but can instantly kill most classes. Same goes with going gas + neon. IMO picking off key targets and retreating enemies is something scout is good at, but since he’s good at so many things and has insane flexibility with his unlocks, the most accurate categorization is the very unhelpful ‘generalist’

[@potatoweaver4116]

​​​​​​​@@june9914 Well first off opting out of using your primary or using a terrible meme strategy isn't a sub-class. Demoknight and Trollider have full loadouts and are decently effective strategies with deep mechanics. There is a reason people main Demoknight and Trollider and will put 1000s of hours into them, so they are true sub-classes. I'll again say that Scout isn't a pick class. Being a 1v1 class isn't the same thing as being a pick class. Now let's look at Sniper, Spy, and even Trollider to a lesser extent which are designed to eliminate their target without a fight because they suck at 1v1s, they have very weak combat abilities. That's a big and important difference. Also I'm going to point out that pick classes don't even care about picking off "isolated targets" or "retreating enemies" all they care about is quickly eliminating their target without a fight; it doesn't matter if they are alone or not. Also Scout is honestly not even particularly good at picking off key targets, he's not necessarily bad at that task but he isn't particularly good either. Key targets are often being protected by their team, and we know Scout can struggle with crowds but I'll grant you he's good at eliminating retreating enemies but that's just clean up, it doesn't really have anything to do with being a pick class.

[@kaptinkitten3683]

With the context of class categories not being a thing back then, I think each classes are categories the way they are for a reason. The way I see it, comparing offense to defense classes, the defense classes need space to operate comfortably and are unable to push into fights. Offense on the other hand very comfortable pushing in and moving around without feeling defenseless when given no breathing room. For pyro though, he is the breathing room, just that he can't effectively create space in a defensive position if the enemy hasn't created offensive pressure. For the support classes, all of them seem to be depended on their team to fight while they do their jobs. Pit a team full of "support classes" against a team full of a different category and you can see how much they rely on the team to fight for them. There are arguments to be said like pyro's airblast changing his role, but that was given to him to make him better at close-corridors and not completely suck against spam. Yes his tools allow him to play defense at short range, but pyro is good at creating space within the small range he has which he has to take to the enemy. Demo is arguably defense not just because of stickies, but because of how vulnerable he is without some sort of cover. As a midrange version of soldier, demo is more likely to be much more back than him where it is safer since his immediate self-defense options are 4 pipes with self damage attached at close range. Basically all the defensive classes can be effective by sitting just a little behind the front lines so they won't get caught with their pants down while offense classes are comfortable functioning past the front lines and possibly in enemy back lines. Sniper is good at threatening sight lines. If you have seen shonic's "what if sniper was removed from the game." experiment you can see that the sniper heavily influences where the enemies go. Sniper relies on the team to create the front lines so he isn't easily rushed down by the enemies. Spy is also reliant on a team to take advantage of his abilities. He needs a team to draw attention away or he can draw attention away from the front, disrupting the flow of enemy's gathering to the front. As his sappers can eliminate buildings on their own, the fact that it disables them and damages it over time really cements it's function to support with disruption and creating opportunities for the team to push in a tight defense by disabling things acting as the core to a defensive hold.

[@jaizo_827]

no there's three it says so right there

[@LegitGarage]

Nah. Flank

[@TactfulWaggle]

soldier would have to be in flank aswell

[@LegitGarage]

@TactfulWaggle not purely like scout and pyro though. it is effective to flank as solider but it is also effective to flank as every class and he is much more of a front line guy than scout or pyro are.

[@TactfulWaggle]

@@LegitGarage what other class besided demoman? heavy is too slow, engineer stays behind with medic and sniper, spy stays behind except it's behind enemy lines so it's not flanking them either

[@newden-dinimation7120]

Probably off topic, but this reply section made me remember that one moment when I managed to flank an enemy in a Heavy+Medic duo with full Uber

[@PineappleDealer37]

Engineer is more of a fluid class than just support really. He can defend with sentries, can act as a slower scout with shotgun, can support with dispensers and teleporters and hell, flank engineer is a powerhouse that shouldn't be underestimated. One engineer slipping behind your team and all of the sudden the entire enemy team is behind you.

[@Abominax7]

The classes are on a gradient. The further left a class is on the class select screen, the moee offensive they are. The further right a class is, the more supportive(or defensive) they are. This is why demo is in defense but on the leftmost side of defense. He is more offensive than the other defense classes. Engineer is on the right side of defense because he is the most supportive defense class. This is also why pyro is still in offense. They are on the right side of offense because the airblast and large damage area allows pyro to be more defensive than soldier and scout.

[@SanityDrop]

here's my favorite role categorization in tf2: white: Scout, Soldier, Heavy, Engi, Medic, Sniper, Spy black: Demo idk: Pyro

[@AncientFire]

Spy should be in the french category

[@Lawlz4Dayzz]

Offense, Defense, and Support are universal. They are so universal that it makes sense that each class has secondary roles in relation to the other two primary roles, including one central roles of no relatiom to anything else.

[@Sirebellum1337]

I love to see new TFtubers spawning, but this is a problem that's already been fixed by the competitive scene as far as I'm concerned. Three roles: generalist, defense, and pick. Generalists like scout, soldier, demo, and medic are always good to have. Defense classes like pyro, engineer, and heavy are more positional classes that excel in holding ground but aren't quite as good at taking ground. And finally, pick classes sniper and spy only exist to get the occasional game-changing pick.

[@spiceforspice3461]

Competitive and casual tf2 are basically two different games.

[@wtzhang586]

Great video although I’d say a Venn diagram would be a better way since there are classes that can fit into multiple roles. For instance scout is also an excellent damage class, soldier is also very strong in 1v1s and engie has defensive capabilities

[@fumoaddict3526]

i think a good way to explain why engie's gun is more of a supporting tool is to compare it to wall effects in other games, like mei's ice wall in OW. since good players won't just walk into a sentry they know is there, the sentry gun is effectively just a wall that enemies don't get to walk past as long as the gun is alive. the front line is the actual defense while the sentry effectively builds a wall behind your frontline that flankers can't walk past while it's up, but on its own it can't do the job of the front line.

[@potatoweaver4116]

yeah, a sentry alone is pretty weak actually, a Scout can easily take out a sentry if it isn't being protected by its team. A sentry gun definitely exists just to support the defense.

[@Brother_Piner]

Why can’t it be both? I’ve seen it used the way you’re describing, but I’ve also seen it used as an integral part of actually defending an objective, especially when the enemy has pushed to the point. The sentry gun, and engi himself, are both support and defense. His sentry gun isn’t like Mei’s ice wall, since it can actively shoot at other players. It often plays a crucial role in defending a point, more than just being something to allow your team to fall back behind. Sure, it’s weak on its own… hence why you often see the engineer right by it when he’s using it for defense rather than pure support. You can’t really use Mei to turtle the same way you can with engineer.

[@qualityarsenic3922]

Love the Gastly TCG profile pic. Great video! I think you hit the nail on the head with your explanations. Having the note of Demoknight being a Duelist was also a smart idea.

[@FluffyFailure0]

Scout, Spy, and Sniper are Disruptors. Soldier, Pyro, Demoman, and Heavy are Frontliners. Leaving Engineer and Medic as Support. Personally, I think this might be the easiest way to reclassify them, but it doesn't maintain the symmetry of three per category. :3

[@coastalvan1978]

Id put sniper, spy and engineer in "backlines" because they stay in the background most of the game. If you want to get fancy you can put spy in something like "infiltrator" but that's my opinion.

[@FluffyFailure0]

@@coastalvan1978 Well, the Spy is supposed to be behind the enemy backlines not your own, because otherwise, his toolkit is mostly useless. I categorized Scouts, Spys, and Snipers as Disruptors because they are supposed to eliminate high-value targets and disrupt the enemy team. But otherwise, Scout and Spy are dedicated flankers. The only other class that could join them as a flanker is Pyro who could just as well be considered a support. But regardless of how you crunch the numbers for Pyro his tool set is best utilized in the frontline hence he is a Frontliner. A backline class does not refer to a class that stays in the background of a game, it refers to a class that is best utilized behind your own team. For example, someone who reinforces the frontline by staying in the backline of a team push, such as a Medic. :3

[@julianivanov3058]

I think the current categories work perfectly because there is no way to agree on what they should be changed to

[@vilkillian]

Saying that support class reason to be picked "is to provide value to the team in the non-damaging fashion" is so wrong on so many levels. It's not that i pick support because i "don't wanna do damage", oh nooo, i want to see enemy burn and suffer in tears. Support class better be described as a "class which provides value to the main OBJECTIVE by facilitating team RESOURCES both objective (health, ammo) and subjective (logistics, travel, providing positioning and enemy control)" hence *support* So: "I healed and fed ze man who will kill you"

[@rexspecificallyredrex64rem73]

it is absolutely ridiculous and reveals a sore amount of lack of information on the subject, using one of their example games, Zenyatta is one of the highest damage output characters in Overwatch with the lowest healing of their class who is a lightweight who can die very fast. This is an entire category of support called the Black Mage.

[@JoaquinHurtado-zb7gp]

These are pretty good, but I think the traditional three roles (pick, power and support) are perfect as they are: Pick classes focus on single target elimination, be it by flanking, dueling or simply instakilling isolated targets (scout, sniper, spy, roaming soldier, ambushing pyro) Power focuses on teamfights, tanking, spamming, doing the objective and basically being the meat and bones of the team (soldier, demo, heavy, pyro) Support focuses on helping the team by strengthening their teammates, healing them, protecting them or sharing valuable information (medic, engie, defensive pyro, competitive spy)

[@fightingleaf]

I personally like the term "Pybro" when I play as defensive pyro.

[@moony_otter]

Okay, so class roles get massively misinterpreted; and that is 100% Valve's fault for not properly explaining it. Let me explain. Something to note is that the placement of the classes is not random. Pyro is the farthest-right class of all the Offense classes because they have the best defensive and supportive tools of the bunch, Demoman is the farthest left thanks to his massive potential DPS, Engineer is the farthest-right Defense class thanks to his Dispenser and Teleporter, while Medic is the farthest-right Support class thanks to him being able to be anywhere and help anywhere, while the other two are limited in their positioning. 1.) Offense Offense classes are intended to have tools and stats that allow them to push into enemy defenses; typically, on their own, they will usually have the upper hand when attacking a foe when they play to their strengths. However, they have significant weakness that allow an enemy to easily overwhelm them if an offense class gets caught off-guard. - Scout is best a 1-on-1 confrontations, using mobility and high bust damage to pick and win his fights. However, when caught off guard, his low health pool and lack of crowd control abilities make him easy to overwhelm. - Soldier has the health and firepower to take down even the strongest enemies, but his limited ammo capacity and lack of mobility without rocket jumping make it difficult for him to deal with an onslaught of enemies. - Pyro is incredible at dealing out massive damage across a crowd of enemies, but his lack of effective range force him to really focus on getting close to the enemy before they have a chance to react, otherwise Pyro will be the one that's toast. (However, I will agree that 2.) Defense Defense classes are meant to be powerhouses of damage, being the absolute best at crowd control and thriving in situations where they allow the enemy to come to them, rather than them going to the enemy. However, whether it be unreliable burst options or lack of escape tools, their offensive capabilities are less than most. - Demoman's Sticky Bomb Launcher is the most versatile defense tool in the game, being able to be deployed anywhere at a moment's notice, but with the detonation delay, lesser mobility, and the often unreliable nature of his Grenade Launcher, he can't push very hard against an enemy stronghold without help - Heavy is THE defense class; his absurd DPS that can be sustained for a really long time and his incredible health pool allows him to mow down oncoming threats easily. He thrives when he allows his enemies to come to him; however, his lack of mobility and escape options make pushing toward an enemy as Heavy incredibly unreliable and often does not yield good results - Engineer's Sentry Gun is the best defense tool in the entire game, and can pretty much always hold its own against single target attackers. However, those buildings take time and resources to set up, and Engineer on his own is about as mediocre as it gets 3.) Support This is the class type that gets the most misinterpreted. No, it is not tied to giving people health or anything; Support means that these classes specialize in specific aspects that might be causing their team trouble, but have weaknesses that make them overall unable to either attack nor defend on their own. - Medic without someone to heal is the weakest class in the game, even despite the decent DPS of his Syringe Gun. But, with a team, he can not only assist with restoring the main resource of TF2 (that being health), but also provide a temporary buff that give both Offense and Defense classes an edge over their competition. - Sniper can deal absolutely ludicrous damage to anyone unfortunate enough to be at the center of his scope, regardless of range, making him incredible at both picking off targets to initiate a push, but to kill potential attackers and stuff Ubers. However, his Rifle's low firing speed, his low health pool, low mobility, and lack of other options make him incapable of pushing or defending on his own. - Spy has the potential to be the most important class to any game of TF2, being able to disrupt Engineer nests, stuff Ubers and other steamroll mechanics, kill high-health targets, all while being able to sneak around just under the enemy's nose. However, when caught out, he nearly takes Medic off his throne as the weakest class without a team, so his defense and offense potential are next to none. Overall, support classes are called 'support' because they themselves do not attack nor defend within the grand scheme of a game of TF2. They help offense classes push into the enemy's defenses, and help whittle down or entirely eliminate potential threats to their own team's defensive hold. On their own, though, they cannot push into a well-defended enemy hold nor hold off a push from the opposing team. The Class Select screen deserves more love than it gets... it also deserves to be updated with proper descriptions of what 'Offense,' 'Defense,' and 'Support' mean to avoid misconceptions like what we see today. Oh, well. Conclusion: Offense: "I'll attack the enemy!" Defense: "I'll let the enemy attack me!" Support: "I'll do neither on my own, but help everyone else do their job!"

[@damianateiro]

Sniper is also much more defensive and Spy is more offensive. Many things Valve designed in the beginning were wrong in practice, remember that you could do more or less damage randomly. At least in the case of Spy and Sniper they thought they would be supports for what you say but it falls much more into other categories due to its gameplay.

[@moony_otter]

@@damianateiro Not necessarily, try to take down a fully-formed enemy defense as a couple of Spies and you'll get your ass handed to you; try to defend a point from an incoming enemy push as a group of Snipers and you'll be easily overwhelmed. Sniper and Spy, while both having offensive and defensive capabilities (and specializing in one or the other) are not designed to affect the momentum of the game themselves. Does a Spy push alone allow for the capturing of a point? Does a Sniper have the capability of halting enemy progress on his own? While Sniper is a bit overtuned, I would still say that neither of these classes alone can allow for a momentum shift in the game; meanwhile, proper Offense classes can very well go from attacking an enemy point to completely shifting the frontline in their favor, and proper Defense classes can very much halt enemy progress all on their own. Sniper and Spy are intended to introduce weak-points in the enemy team that allows for either an offensive push or defensive hold to be successful. Spy takes down Engie nests, Heavies, Snipers, and Medics in order to allow his team to take advantage of the sudden weakness, and Sniper whittles down the enemy offense in order to assist his team in cleaning up the rest of the enemy push. Without their team, however, a Sniper or a Spy will not be capable of changing the position of the frontline without a team to take advantage of their plays. So, yes, Sniper is technically a Defense class, and Spy is technically an Offense class, but those are just what the classes themselves do on a purely personal level, yet pure personal class roles is not what the game was designed around. These are TEAM roles, and Sniper and Spy cannot attack nor defend any points on their own, they introduce weaknesses that Offense or Defense classes can take advantage of. Offense, Defense, and Support were designed to describe how their presence will affect the momentum of the game, and while these two specialists do favor one or the other, their impact is not great enough to put them as a purely Defense or Offense class. I agree with ya, but at the same time I think Valve did do their homework when designing the current Class Selection screen. Not to say it can't be improved, of course.

[@zanderdevinci8198]

I rolled my eyes at first at the "sentry isnt defense, it supports the team in defending" but your explanation made a lot of sense!

[@military_snake]

Honestly this was a really good organization of everything. It was refreshing to hear a nice blend between your thoughts on casual vs competitive play and how each play a factor in the potentials and capabilities the classes can exhibit if played optimally. Well done!

[@TooruJJ]

❤️

[@the_creature_spooky_stories]

love how you mentioned the btd6 alc monke and dende, we have similar preferences

[@Pudding404]

Hmm. Kill to kill, kill in self-defense, and helping others kill better. I geddit.

[@propertyjohn1]

the spy part is saying spy is actually more like a pick, not support and heres why (proceeds to list exactly why spy is a support class) Spy and sniper both support through "picking" Theres no reason to make it more specific and thus more complicated If you dont get what Offense, Defense, and Support mean, maybe youre just really dumb Plus the inconsistent number of classes in each category make it even more complicated to a first time player

[@propertyjohn1]

Really does seem like this is a competitive overwatch/tf2 players wet dream, but it doesn't make sense in any way

[@propertyjohn1]

Plus, he says this at 7:30 Why do we have to always make support characters healers? There's a lot of different ways to support your team, as spy and sniper are an example of Their main goal is to support the team through killing high priority targets, but suddenly that just isn't support anymore because overwatch doesnt have a hero like that? Not everything has to be exactly like overwatch

[@propertyjohn1]

8:30 this is also just entirely false just because overwatch does it differently doesn't mean it shouldn't be like this It's still support whether you like it or not

[@justin8e8]

In my mind, Each role defines their general requirements to be at their best Offense = Always at the ready (Scout, Soldier, Pyro have decent mobility and are always ready to fight) Defense = Requires Set up to be at their strongest (Demo’s Stickies, Heavy’s slow speed and wind up, Engineer needs time to set up their buildings Support = Does best when their team is doing good (Medic needs someone to heal, Sniper needs distance between him and the enemy, Spy needs someone to take attention away from him)

[@dugglinieduardo2690]

This type of content hasn’t been made in tf2 for a long time. When I first got in to the game years and years ago this type of video was popular, and I’ve always thought it would be nice for someone add modern sensibilities to this educational foundational format. Great work!

[@ryan_1314]

Good video, I notice TF2 having sub-roles is pretty similar to overwatch, where despite the "3 roles," there's also sub-roles for spam/flank/picks/utility/etc. One thing that I disagree on though how each class has only 1 role. Some classes have several roles depending on playstyle/game phase. I'd say a revised description of each classes role would be: Scout - duelist/flanker Soldier - Damage/flanker Pyro - defense Demo - damage/defense Demoknight - duelist Heavy - defense Engi - support/defense Medic - support Sniper - pick Spy - pick/flanker To elaborate, duelist and flanker are very similar, but duelists focus more on fighting solo enemies and initiating fights, while flankers focus more on causing disruption in the backline. Scout of course does both, but Spy only picks/disrupts, not take on fights. Soldier does damage, but his mobility lets him have a roamer playstyle where he dives and disrupts. Pyro is obviously defense, but certain loadouts like Dragon's fury, combo, or pybro made me consider other roles. Demo and engi also follow their respective roles, but like the heavy have great area denial and increase the enemy's risk of being aggressive.

[@Brother_Piner]

I think even stock Pyro, or at least Stock flamethrower with a flare gun can be an effective flanking class. Pyro has so many good offensive options, I’d argue he’s defense/flanker. I think when people try to claim that he’s defensive only, they’re making a good point about his defensive capabilities, but I think they discount how effective he can be offensively because of how many people use him ineffectively. It doesn’t help that his constant-fire primary and decent movement speed tends to attract many gibusvisions. I don’t think a weapon being constant-fire rather than burst damage automatically makes it worse for attacking, either. To me that’s like saying the rocket launcher is worse for picking fights than the scatter gun because it has travel time.

[@2-AZ1-BE]

I agree with you but I still prefer the valve style of categorising the mercenaries. Ergo Attack Defence and support. And by support meaning is direct support or supporting my weakening the enemy. I would also prefer to have each mercenary having their stats, instead of putting them in general categories Scout - pure offence Solider- offence, defence Pyro- offence, defence, support Demo- offence, defence Heavy- defence, support Engi- defence, support Medic - pure support Sniper- support, defence Spy- support, offence I based this ranking on tf2classic, since I don't really play tf2 anymore.

[@darkAwesome100]

I still think that engie is a defense class. The main roll of a defense class is to be the anchor, be the wall that your team can fall back to when overwhelmed. Heavy and pyro can both do this very well, covering weaker classes as they retreat and taking the brunt of the assault. Engineer is perfectly suited to this role, being able to lock down an area for your team to regroup at. The engineer creates rally points, cover during the storm.

[@TractorKid45]

Probably one of the smartest videos ive seen about tf2s class structure and where they fit. I like how you pull ideas and sources from comp since thats where all of this is consistently proven (whereas pubs spy becomes the nuke class lmao)

[@aperks]

0:09 because they dont excel at direct close range fighting,instead picking out their targets,helping their team,supporting from the backlines

[@poleve5409]

but then isn't engineer a support class too?

[@necroseus]

The way I organize class roles is such: Offense and Defense are broad categories: Offense has a small field of influence and the capability of pushing that influence anywhere on the map. Defense has a large area of influence but is not able to readily push that influence anywhere. Then you have three more specific categories that apply to either broad category. Power, Strike, and Support: Power classes are best in team fights because they are strong enough to thrive in the thick of battle. Strike classes are best on the flank or backline because they are equipped to win 1v1s. Support classes perform tertiary tasks which keep all of their team's other classes functional, or the enemy team's classes dysfunctional. Applying this to TF2: Soldier - Offense Power Demo - Offense Power Scout - Offense Strike Spy - Offense Strike Medic - Offense Support Heavy - Defense Power Pyro - Defense Strike Sniper - Defense Strike Engineer - Defense Support (Defense Power is arguable for Pyro, but pyro is definitely best in a 1v1 ambush which leans me towards strike) (I call Pick classes Strike classes because when designing a menu, calling a group "Pick Class" looks like you're trying to tell the player to select those classes, as opposed to describing its role)

[@simplysmiley4670]

And it ain't static and permanent what role the classes fit into considering the overabundance of different weapons to change things around.

[@necroseus]

@simplysmiley4670 Yep, definitely! You would use such a system to classify their stock setup, and then specify role differences based on loadout if necessary :)

[@simplysmiley4670]

@@necroseus Well even with just stock, not all of it fits perfectly well. Like medic with stock loadout ain't just an offensive support, he's also a defensive one by default.

[@necroseus]

@simplysmiley4670 Medic is definitively Offense Support. Offense in this sense simply means they are designed to push forward and exist on the frontline. If the frontline happens to be a defensive hold, like a last point, then all offense classes will _technically_ be playing defense. That doesn't mean they aren't still designed to be offense classes. Said Offense classes will still be playing in front of the sentry, which is the most offensive position possible on a last point. Battle Engineer, for example, isn't turning Engineer into an Offense class. What you're doing is taking a Defense class and setting up a defensive hold in unorthodox positions. It still requires set up, getting to said unorthodox place (which is much more difficult for Engineer than any Offense class), and then maintaining that position temporarily. As Uncle Dane put it, you're being "Offensively Defensive". Putting that large zone of defensive influence in an offensive spot An example of a playstyle/ loadout genuinely changing class role would be Demoknight. Demo is usually Offense Power class, but if you're playing Demoknight, you become an Offense Strike class I hope that clears up what I mean with the Offense/ Defense split

[@presseagainidareyou4704]

Oh wow! I can’t believe I found someone who categorized the classes like how I do. You did a great job expressing the logic and ideas of the categories in this video. I loved it. The names I used in my head were a bit different since I’ve played a lot of hero shooters. Tank: Heavy and Pyro Flank: Scout and Spy Assassin: Sniper and Spy Frontline: Soldier and Demoman Support: Medic and Engineer

[@Neo2266.]

Scout’s like an Pick class with extra steps. And when I play as sniper he’s no single-shot assassin but a duelist too :P

[@littlefunk4194]

“Spam (from soldier and demo) create a sort of no-man’s land” good to know artillery is alive and well in tf2

[@TheAlmightyLeroy]

This just feels like splitting hairs, the Pick, power, support catagories are overall more concise

[@theneatpenguin7862]

I think having classes in multiple categories helps a lot, since they can easily switch roles depending on loadout/playstyle. Using your categories, I'd place them as: Defense: Heavy, Engineer, Pyro Support: Medic, Engineer, Pyro Pick: Scout, Spy, Sniper Duelist: Scout, Soldier, Demoknight Damage: Soldier, Demoman

[@crayon5573]

great video- what’s the background music at 20:41?

[@yoshiyoshi2955]

I wish I knew, I was thinking it sounded really good too. It kinda sound like a Pokémon song but I’m not really sure

[@jackeroni216]

Pokémon Sun & Moon - Battle Legend Red & Blue

[@crayon5573]

@@jackeroni216 thank you so much!

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

Actually the pyro weapon that came to mind was the dragons fury instead but the phlog fits as well

[@SonicSanctuary]

I've not seen your vids before, only stumbling onto this one by chance. i am impressed. "we shall watch your career with great interest."

[@BasicallyBaconSandvichIV]

I'd call the "pick" classes the disruptor classes, since their main goal is disrupting the enemy team to make combatting them easier. Also duelist could also be called the flanker, but I don't know about Demoknight in that case so I'm not quite as sure if it is better.

[@ricebowl3996]

i always saw the term “power class” like it’s okay to stack them on a team. classes like scout, medic, and spy don’t really have the power to push the front line compared to other classes like heavy and soldier. so stacking them means you’ll have a good chance of winning, but honestly i like your perspective on class roles pretty interesting

[@G.r.e.g.g.l.e.s]

Correction for 7:00 Pyro's best chase option since 2017 has been the thermal thruster.

[@AndromedaGalaxy29]

Ehh... The thermal thruster is fine, but it sure is not "the best".

[@skipperg4436]

Hm, we had the following categories, and by "we" I mean try-hard community server where we played for years for thousands of hours per player: 1) Heavy classes. That is Heavy, Soldier and Demoman. When properly supported either of them can either be a defense anchor or an unstoppable juggernaught pushing forward. Yes, Heavy absolutely can be a guy doing that you just must be aware of his limitations and to how to play around them. I'd argue that certain defensive positions are nigh-impossible to take without Heavy doing the push (assuming of course close skill level of both teams). 2) Medic. He deserves category of his own because of just how important he is. You correctly mentioned that. 3) Pick-classes. That would be Sniper, Spy and Scout. Sure, Sniper completely outshines both of others (due to him being able to do the same picking, but much easier and without putting himself into any risk) but that's more of the problem of people learning to abuse certain exploit and general increase of both skill and hardware power that players have. 4) Support. Engineer (obviously) and Pyro. Without Engineer's teleporter any succesfull assault is nigh impossible, nor is defense without dispenser. And you talked about Sentry for the most part correctly, though I must assert that in certain defensive positions Sentry is INCREIBLY hard to destroy - NOT in competitive mind that, because in competitive there is only one Engi while on "tryhard casual" there can be several and when they put Sentries that cover each other's weakspot and generally help each other that increases Sentry survivability by 10 times. As for Pyro, his role is weird. He is good at reducing the threat of enemy spies, denying Ubers and countering Soldiers. He also have the only weapon in the game that is a soft-counter to the Sniper which is Scorch Shot. He don't have damage output of heavy classes nor burst damage of the pick classes. Personally, I believe that Pyro is underpowered atm...

[@johannesneumayer6041]

Hey, this seems kinda cool, let me try to come up with some totally unique categories: Power classes (Pyro, Soldier, Heavy and Demo) are great at capturing or defending control points, pushing forward and creating space, and can deal a lot of damage to groups of enemies. They form the backbone of the team and allow pick- and support classes to prosper. But they do have weaknesses, often being focused down and susceptible to spam. Pick classes, (Scout, Sniper and Spy) unlike the power classes, do not engage in prolonged firefights. Instead, they pick off valuable targets from a group of players, getting in and out for quick kills and disruption and causing positive trades for your team, enabling power classes to fight under more favorable terms. They do struggle against groups of enemies and without power classes to back them up. Support classes (Medic, Engineer and even Pyro to a degree): do not engage in fights directly due to their weaker offensive power. Instead, they back up their power- and support classes through a myriad of benefits, while usually staying on the back line. They rely on power classes for protection, but can greatly enhance teams through their presence on the battlefield.

[@dimitridan8112]

honestly i will always consider valorant's role division the best one ever thought of. Duelist, Initiator, Sentinel and Controller are an amazing way to divide roles. It work for both attack/defense and the role names are self-explanatory (and even then an explanation is available when looking at agents)

[@myss1102]

7:48 epic btd reference, but alchemist is actually magic lmao but yeah "a class whose primary method of providing value to a team doesn't involve damaging the enemy team" fits alch well and makes me think of them as even more support than hybrid than i initially thought, looking at it thru this lens middle path is a support unlock, not a dps unlock

[@4rtistPeter]

I could say tf2 classes can be cathegorized in 4 main roles, and some classes can be placed as a mix of 2 of these: -Combat class (C): the main part of the frontline, able to do great damage or be a threat at attacking multiple enemies. -Defense class (D): able to stop or slow down an enemy push. -Support class (S): able to contribute to defense or offense in other ways other than damage. -Pick class (P): great burst damage and/or able to "pick" specific threats on 1v1 fights or trade kills. The classes are now charted according to stock loadouts (as many unlocks can completely change the roll of the default class) and adding a + in an specific role makes the class specially good at said role: -Scout (C/P+): great damage output, able to be a decent frontline class, but its speed (and low health) makes Scout able to run around getting key players. -Soldier (C+/P): high health, grat damage, good mobility with rocket jumps, but not so good on defense aside from explosive spam. Can occasionally get key picks rocket jumping, but can be risky. -Pyro (D/S+): airblast is one of the best supportive tools in tge game. Pyro is not as a good of attacker, as a lack of range and extra mobility, but fire is really great at defending from multiple enemies (they come to you, rather than you to them). -Demoman (C+/D+): the stickytrap is the most reliable source of damage in defense, able to stop a push on his own. The amount of explosive demo has loaded also allows him to rush and output lots of damage before reloading in an offense push. -Heavy (C/D): the lack of mobility is compensated by amthe highest potential DPS in the game, able to penetrate the enemy frontline if properly supported. On defense, as movility is not as important, a solo heavy has a better matchup and survivability. -Engineer (D++/S): an engi without buildings is a lack for his team more than anything else. The sentry is the best area denial tool in the gane, and the dispenser and teleporter are great mobility and survability tools. -Medic (S+++): no need to explain :3 -Sniper (P+): great burst damage from any range, but lacking in mobility and defense options if caught off guard. -Spy (P+): not as great mobility, but disguises and invinsibility make it worth dying for a potential instakill backstab. Most classes can work as all of these roles, but this is my opinion in stock classes abd intended roles.

[@splish8869]

Very great video! Just subbed. I’ve previously thought about the subject as reworking the class categories into a spectrum with the points from combat to support to pick, then looping back to combat, with classes like scout in between pick and combat, and pyro in between combat and support, and with some slight variation for stuff like engine being slightly more towards combat than medic, and spy being slightly more towards support than sniper. Also there would be some variance for stuff like playstyles or loadout choice. A lot of the unlocks change things, with the lunchbox items, bannars, soldiers and demo’s shoes, half of pyro and engineer’s unlocks, and scout and sniper’s jars all providing significant overhauls. Either way, whileI think it’s still an interesting topic, I think hard class definitions can be kind of reductive, and the game is very loose (as you discussed in your section on engineer’s buildings). Also, what HUD are you using, and what HUD config settings do you set to get your low health and full Uber percentage to animate like that?

[@averagegamingplayer]

If I could have it then I would have the stock version of the classes on a gradient from pure offense like Scout/Soldier to pure defence like Heavy to pure support with Medic, then the pick classes on the end. Wait, that's exactly how it is already already set up but with no separation.

[@Anonymouthful]

If a person has trouble understanding something simple as class categories I feel like they should go see a doctor.

[@curiouswind9196]

"That's right, I'm your White Mage, and nobody, fucks, with the White Mage" Dende

[@opgamer801hmng5]

5:57 from 40 fps to 120

[@The-ms2ub]

7:05 also the literal Jetpack that pyro has

[@Awhiterabbitexisting]

Yeah its a weapon

[@idavid8391]

I find the class roles make the most sense when they're simply Damage, Pick, and Support. Damage: Soldier Demo Heavy Pick: Scout Sniper Spy Support Pyro Medic Engie

[@Steamuch]

In TF2 context -> Offense: have resources for initiating a push and no means/reasons to regroup; Defense: limited range for advancement, strong dependence on support with retreat options designed specifically for that matter; Support: backlines built around interacting with Defense and messing with enemy Support independently, no reasons to advance and no surviving against Offense, retreat focus abilities. Treat any map in any mode as 5CP and you'll get that I'm talking about.

[@mango6430]

0:58 that t-pose jetpack pyro is hilarious af

[@thekyoungin6054]

21:38 this clip is basically how Demoman is depicted in literally every TF2 SFM animation

[@somedude4087]

guess somebody never heard of "oneshotting the enemy before they deal damage is the best form of healing"

[@GoldPikmin]

A lot of the explanations make good sense, and I can definitely respect the time put into the thought process. I wouldn't even be mad if a portion of players were to switch to this ideology. However, while there's a lot of nitpicks I could go on about (my main one is below for anyone curious), I think the main point I should simply address is the ideology that each class can only fall into a single role, which much like the role system itself, is a very outdated way of thinking. Prime example being that Soldier can basically be ANY role now depending on his loadout. As for the aforementioned nitpick: I think dismissing Power Class is simply an off choice. It is meant to refer to taking and/or dealing lots of damage, which Heavy and Demo (the two main power classes by community standard) do perfectly, and people definitely don't consider FIVE whole classes (especially Scout) to be PURELY power class. Scout is actually often lumped into pick with Sniper and Spy since his duelist gameplay is also good at dropping targets, and the term pick has never REQUIRED flat out one-shotting.

[@NocturnalTyphlosion]

reminds me of how comp splatoon communities class weapons into slayer (able to end fights much of the time), skirmisher (assisting and bringing fights to the slayers, as well as distracting opponents from more vulnerable players), support (dealing out buffs or debuffs, putting out aoe damage for area denial), and anchor (stopping pushes into friendly territory, helping the team hold ground), as well as the fact that, hilariously, for a short time the vanilla Splash-o-Matic could do all of these roles, depending on special timing

[@TooruJJ]

@@NocturnalTyphlosion that’s cool to know, used to play a good bit of splatoon but never knew about that

[@shybandit521]

I've always defined in my mind the 5 roles with an aggressive side and a defensive side. Aggressive means they push the enemies front line back, defensive means they hold their own teams front line in place. Pick: Spy/Sniper. Spy saps buildings and takes out important defensive targets such as heavies and snipers. Sniper takes out important aggressive targets such as medics, and really anyone who pushes forward enough to reach his sightline. They pick crucial targets so that fights have less risk. Support: Medic/Engineer. Medic uses uber to smash through the enemies front line without risk and keeps those already in danger alive longer, Engineer uses buildings to bring teammates up to the front, and give them safer spots to rest. They are where teammates go to receive support if they're in the front or on the back. Core: Soldier/Heavy. Soldier blasts forward, drawing attention and focus fire only to survive to fight another day with his health pool and supportive options like banners. Heavy walks neverendingly forward, on a single minded mission to keep the objective with his team and all enemies looking at him and not anyone more vulnerable. Both are strong solid cores for their team to rally around. Objective: Scout/Demoman. Scout dashes for kills and dashes for the objective, being uniquely well suited for backcapping and flag carrying if he isn't stopped. Demoman keeps enemies off the objective with stickies in some instances, but even when moving forward he still makes a massive risk zone for enemies who want to push the objective back, securing it in a more subtle way. Scout takes objectives with aggression, Demoman "defends" his way forward one step at a time until everyone is on the objective. Pyro: Pyro. Pyro can do whatever they damn well feel like. Wanna Support? Pybro, spychecking, flare gun harassment for snipers. Wanna Pick? Puff and sting. Wanna Core? Airblast spam. Perhaps even Objective? W+M1. Pyro refuses to be defined by any of the above roles, as he even does the roles in a unique way that no other class can.

[@reptiliannoizezz.413]

22:11 "Both classes wanna deliver nukes all the time, 24/7 to the enemy team" So... Wouldn't they be more "barrage" classes?

[@tavish1658]

Light: Scout, Spy, Sniper Heavy: Soldier, Pyro, Demoman, Heavy Support: Medic, Engineer Light classes excel at picking off single high value targets and flanking the enemy. Heavy classes excel at dealing constant reliable damage. Their high health makes them fit for the frontline and übercharges. Support classes assist their team, be it healing, übercharges or teleporting teammates to the frontline. Nice short descriptions that should indicate to new players, that their team does not need another spy or sniper.

[@HouseLyrander]

I think the idea behind the old catagories were meant to be related to how they interact with the objective. Offense = Attacks the point/payload/intel Defense = Protects the point/payload/intel Support = Helps the team by taking care of everything else Pretty much all of the classes except for Pyro still follow this pretty well since airblast and the abundance of extinguishing options makes the idea of Pyro helping Soldier and Scout secure kills less of a thing. Personally though, I would now map classes largely to... Power (Soldier/Demo/Heavy) = Head to head fighters that attack the enemy team as a whole Pick (Scout/Sniper/Spy) = Duelists and assassins that go after high value targets Buddy (Pyro/Engineer/Medic) = Sticks close to teammates and/or important locations to help minimize friendly deaths Naturally unlocks let classes flex in to other roles (i.e. Soldier can become a Pick with the Market Gardener or a Buddy with a Banner) but I think this is a good new trinity. This probably also reveals a lot about how I view Pyro as well.

[@leroyjenkins1032]

As far as engis dispenser being a defensive item, it makes sense. Dispensers don't mean the same thing to offense and defense, offense has the cart which basically acts as a level 1 dispenser. Which immdiartly makes an offense engineers dispenser less valuable.

[@bluehawkbill5445]

I have a couple of subclasses in mind which I think do fit your class types, here's how I see them: Gun Spy - Duelist Revolver / Ambassador, Spicicle, Invis Watch or Dead Ringer. I see Gun Spy as a very strong duelist for very similar reasons to scout - fast movement, with very strong damage output alongside great dodging if aim and movement are done right. I think the biggest thing that makes him a valuable pick compared to Scout is his cloak, as he can breach defenses quietly and try to pick a duel in the back lines, in maps where scout would really only be able to force his way in, possibly attracting a lot of attention. I'd say that this alongside the sapper are good tools considering Spy's lack of double jump and extra speed. Charger - Support This is just what I call a Soldier equipped with Conchelor and the Disciplinary Action, as well as any lethal rocket launcher really (most profitably the Air Strike or Black Box). His support comes by allowing for quick and threatening assaults with the use of the Conchelor and the Disciplinary Action. He is supposed to generally rack up damage and remain alive, so when his Conchelor is full it is used to allow the team to rush very oppressingly. Pissman - Duelist This is the Sniper with the Huntsman, Jarate, and Bushwhacka. Same idea as scout - his role is picking fights with his generally fast movement and high damaging weapon, the huntsman. The Jarate is basically a go-to option as it allows the arrow to kill all light classes even with a body shot, as well as raise likelyhood of killing meatier classes if the arrow is charged. The Bushwhacka is there to quite obviously deal with enemies who might get quickly into close range with the sniper unable to shoot them or create more distance during the timeframe of them pushing in. Scoutula - Damage Scout with the Cleaver/Mad Milk, Wrap assassin/Boston Basher, and preferably either the Baby Face or Soda Popper. This is a Scout that just intends to do continuous damage to enemies while profiting off of it and remaining alive by using scouts high mobility options from these profits. I do believe this subclass fits with all of these weapons, as their main differences for this purpose is merely what is the playing area for the scout to be in. Mad Milk fits close quarters while Cleaver benefits from open fields. Same thing between Boston Basher and Wrap assassin. Same thing between Baby Face and Soda Popper. Metallic - Duelist This is the Engineer with Widow maker & Pistol / Shotgun & Short Circuit, and the Eureka Effect. This is an Engineer which similarly to Scout would attempt at reaching individual fights with his ranged weapons, and also find a good spot for an exit teleporter to use with his Eureka Effect in case he died. The lack of double jump and speed are countered with the use of level 1 sentries and Dispensers. This makes Metallic a Duelist with higher risk and higher reward, as I found that once a good spot for a teleporter exit is found and it's made, the Metallic becomes a great threat to the other team, as he can literally teleport directly to a spot where he can pick Duels more methodically and oppressively. The Short Circuit and the Shotgun are the better option for overall longevity which is the Metallic's main purpose, but picking the Widow Maker and Pistol allows him to more easily infiltrate and pick duels on the way to his picked teleporter spot.

[@maxthecreature4674]

Scout : Offense/Offense Soldier : Offense/Defense Pyro : Offense/Support Demoman : Defense/Offense Heavy : Defense/Defense Engineer : Defense/Support Medic : Support/Support Sniper : Support/Defense Spy : Support/Offense

[@rosethornfox801]

ive had so many times as a scout where im running back to get health and a medic heals me and i just turn around and go running back in

[@warwulf1889]

Imagine if they officially swapped the class roles of Heavy and Pyro. While simultaneously placing the attack classes in the middle and the defense classes on the left.

[@leadpoisoned45]

You mentioned kiriko, but that's a bad example. In Overwatch specifically, Support means "DPS with extra healing and utility," unlike most games

[@HimMann]

I think you can absolutely say the short circuit does make Engie able to close the distance against soldiers and demomen. If im an engie in a casual match with full metal I will whip out my short circuit (and panic attack for max switch speed) and run straight at the soldier/demoman closing the distance with the short circuit and in those kinds of “duels” if the engie hits his shots he typically wins. If you’re a demoman you either melee or die, and if you’re a soldier you either have a shotgun or have to melee.

[@Lawlz4Dayzz]

I like your attempt for catagories and I appreciate that you got Pyro right, but I see a few mistakes: 1st, having scout as a role by himself just means that role is the class and thereby doesnt actually exist as a role without any other classes. 2nd, classes should be classified by the roles they fulfill in the game and not the damage types and ways the get kills exclusively so I dont see getting picks or damage as the sole purpose of a class only, thats just describing the weapon they are using. 3rd is getting Engineer and Hevay mixed up that I mentioned already in a comment previously. 4th is that Offense, Defense, and Support roles still apply but there are roles that are secondary to differentiate classes in the same role and tertiary to differentiate sub classes from within the same class. If you do this in layers then you will not only have great success in catagorizing each role for each class but could be able to catagorize each for each loadout.

[@chrisyotas5854]

Honestly, this seems a bit overtheorised. Valve's designations seem outdated, but to me at least, they seem very accurate. TL;DR: IMO, if you look at how they fight (not roles but fight gameplay), then the valve roles are still quite accurate. Updates and weapons have blurred the lines but the 'main' fighting style hasnt really changed. Scout is an attacking class. He cant control an area and he cant survive being the focus of attention, his entire gimmick is attack, attack and then some more attack, with breaks in between to recharge or to retreat from bad fights. But you never really see scout defending an area, because that doesnt use their mobility, hence why they are called roamers, ambushers, duelists, 1v1ers etc. Soldier is extremely versatile and can fit into both offense and defense, but his playstyle is also offensive, just not as extreme as the scout. His shotty allows defense but when you play soldier, you want to find targets and kill them, 'spam' as you said is not the go-to winning strategy, it's a holding pattern until you can target specific enemies. Pyro's backblast does put him more neutral than just offense, but a pyro like the scout, cant really hold an area against a push. He can delay it and push it back, but he cant neutralise it. That only happens when the pyro attacks the attacker. The only time a pyro can 'defend' is when he backblasts stuff away from his team, and even that is more support than defense, as its primary purpose is not to defend territory but to negate dmg to his team. Demoman's weapons are almost entirely AOE, he doesnt want to target specific enemies, he wants to target an area and wipe out any enemies in it. When fighting, he doesnt rush at the enemy (demoknight excepted ofc), he lobs explosives to remove the enemies' post code from existence. Hence, his fighting is more defensive, he stays back and projects dmg, unlike the soldier who doesnt have that kind of fire and forget ability. Heavy is defensive as you've described. Engie is defensive because he cant really be played offensively. Every offensive engie i've seen is just defensive engie play where he keeps moving up. But cant push an enemy. Only when catching the enemy by complete surprise can he be used offensively, which is when he manges to get a lvl 3 or lvl 2 sentry in some good spot the enemy wasnt looking at. But even that is aggresive defense. Because he cant really move from his spot. Sniper and Spy are support classes, because they cant fight. They have fighting weapons (SMG, pistol) but every time they go out of their intended roles, they are at such a huge disadvatage, they cant reliably survive or win. A good spy taking advantage of a distracted team to get a big killstream is no more indicative of the spy being a big killer and not a support than a medic getting an ubersaw taunt kill is indicative of medic being a pick class. Medic is support as you've described. Any and all arguments and counter-arguments are welcome.

[@damianateiro]

If the spy and sniper are supports, everyone except the medic is.

[@chrisyotas5854]

@@damianateiro Why so? The way they fight is 100% support. They cant stand up to any of the other classes in 'proper' combat, they have a niche where they excel which is OHK (one hit kill). Everything else is there so they arent completely defenseless.

[@crosbywilkin7137]

The way I see it there are 3 kinds of classes, defined by unique abilities which no other class excels in Mobility: soldier, scout, spy Area Denial: heavy, sniper, demoman Support: medic, engineer, pyro

[@67tedward]

Although there's only 5 categories for 9 classes here, it's sort of interesting to also put subclasses in with them. Like demoknight for example is somewhat of a pick class (being able to charge high value targets) but also a duelist (being able to win most close quarters fights, especially with a few heads, and pick his fights).

[@damianateiro]

The power, pick and support classification are by far the best, because taking into account their base set, the classes fit better in this classification. Power are the classes with a lot of DPS or whose shots cover many enemies (Heavy, Pyro, Soldier and Demoman); support for the support they give to the team that is not only healing, but also providing utility such as moving faster or giving ammunition or ubers (medic and engineer); and there would be pick which are classes in charge of a single target at a time with one or a few shots in addition to being the ones that can risk more when attacking (Sniper, Spy and Scout)

[@TrixterTheFemboy]

"Power" isn't just "being powerful," it's "constant/consistent damage output," a stream of spam at the enemy.

[@phoenixmarktwo]

Offense Soldier: Direct assaults on objectives. High dps, high burst mobility. Scout: Flanking assault on objectives. High dps, high overall mobility. Pyro: Frontline. Area denial when advancing, push back the enemy frontline. Opportunities for flanking and direct assaults. Defense Demoman: Indirect fire capabilities with grenade launcher, traps with stickies. Flexible defense, can easily counter attack. Engineer: Sentry for defensive fortifications. Extra buildings serve to maintain said defenses and support teammates. Limited support capabilities on offense. Heavy: Frontline defense. High hp, tank and draw fire. High dps if opponents are caught in the open. Slow. Support Medic: Healing and uber pushes, keeps the team alive and in the fight. Sniper: Long range elimination of high value targets and harassment via sightlines, forces enemy to be cautious when in the open. Spy: Espionage and disruption. If communication, provides intel, disrupts engineer fortification, high value stealth eliminations when in areas inaccessible to others via disguise and cloak.

[@PinkMawile]

I’d call Spy, Sniper, and Scout as disruption, rather than Pick and Duelist. All of them disrupt the enemy’s tempo and organization.

[@Nitosa]

Skirmisher is also a good description for scout, coming in a short but powerful attack and then backing off before the full brunt of the team comes.

[@jraff2735]

While I agree the term power class is a bit too broad, it usually means a frontliner meant to deal and take the brunt of the enemy's damage, so scout does not fit in here. Otherwise your analysis is fine.

[@pyro4817]

my favorite tf2 class is john

[@HA11EYS_COM3T]

I’d argue that “pick” should be “sabotage” to make it more clear to new players. Your job is to destabilize the enemy team, to affect their bottom line and remove their sense of security; sabotage. I’d also argue that scout belongs in that same category, because he has a similar job of getting into the enemy team and sowing chaos.