The Theological Argument That Made Pastor Joel Webbon A Cessationist

[@jbick042]

Honestly this isn't much of an argument and doesn't deal with the primary texts on the spiritual gifts and biblical, apostolic commands to pursue the gifts.

[@erinharlan3296]

If God is the same, yesterday today and forevermore, why isn't the Holy Spirit?

[@erinharlan3296]

And if even our perfect Lord and Savior Jesus needed to have the Holy Spirit come down on him, why wouldn't we?

[@cadaudioguitars2898]

Just because God is the same forever more does not equate to Him using using the same systems over and over. God demanded circumcision in the OT yet under the new covenant it’s not the case yet He still remains the same.

[@tomtemple69]

​@@cadaudioguitars2898that's not the same at all

[@davidgobart3849]

Hebrews 1:1-2 [1]God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; In times past, God did them one way. Now done through Christ and His Word. Closed canon.

[@nathanielkeane8462]

What flipped me was coming to a preterist understanding. If you take everything eschatological in the NT as yet future, you logically MUST extend the gifts like son’s and daughter’s prophesying in peters sermon until the physical return of Christ. This obviously throws peters statement that this IS what Joel prophesied. A preterist understanding helps you realize how unique the first century of the church was in history

[@RightResponseMinistries]

Very good point.

[@IAmisMaster]

Wow, thanks for pointing out that preterism is just as unbiblical as cessationism and neither was believed by any in the church for the first 1500 years.

[@timothytaylor3181]

​@@IAmisMaster No one in the church believed that the time markings in Matthew 24 and Rev 1 were true?

[@nerychristian]

@@IAmisMaster LOL. What a joke. The early church fathers understood that the book of Revelations was talking about God's judgement of the Roman empire, and that the 666 was referring to NERO.

[@TruthspeakOfficial]

Not a Pentecostal myself, but Pentecostals don’t identify speaking in tongues as part of the order of salvation. You are saved apart from speaking in tongues, they just see speaking in tongues (and the baptism in the Holy Spirit in general) as a form of empowerment for spiritual living and service (as Paul talks about in 1 Cor). Pastor Webbon’s argument here is not only on weak footing exegetically, but totally misrepresents the Pentecostal view.

[@jacob_maier]

I think it's a frequent occurrence to see men that are spiritually gifted with the ability to teach and speak prophetically into society, to then become convinced that all other spiritual gifts have subsided. I stand with Paul washer when I say that would violate my conscience to claim that the scripture teaches cessation of spiritual gifts. Some in the reformed club might claim that that makes me not reformed but I care less about the opinions of men.

[@sojourner2013]

You can say you don't care about the opinions of men toward you, But I highly doubt you execute that as well as you think...highly of yourself.

[@bempong]

If the gift of prophecy is still today, my question is why? What can a person tell me outside of the canon?

[@bempong]

@Dakota Bledsoe With your example, how is that example considered a prophecy. Isn’t that you just speaking on something about me based on observation? You saying “Ben has a heart of ________ and needs to repent” is speaking on something that has already happen which isn’t a prophecy. Biblically, prophecy was speaking on something was was to happen. Prophecy was “fore-telling”. example, Christ gives a prophecy in John 16:20-22, then the fulfillment of the prophecy happens in John 20:19-23. Now if you want to debate whether or not “forth-telling” (different from fore-telling) is considered giving prophecy or not, I feel you would sit at a better position with aiming to defend prophecy, but the example you gave still doesn’t fit the definition of “forth-telling”.

[@craigerc713]

I don't think Paul Washer meant what you think he meant. He is a cessationist.

[@tomtemple69]

Amen brother The Bible supports continuation

[@IAmisMaster]

Let's compare the false doctrine of cessationism with Scripture: "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit." - Joel 2:28-29 (ESV) "Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, *so that the church may be built up* ." - 1 Corinthians 14:5 (ESV) How about Christians that read Scriptures in Greek and were within living memory of the Apostles' original followers? What did they understand Scriptures taught? "Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practicing deception upon any, nor taking any reward Acts 8:9, 18 from them [on account of such miraculous interpositions]. For as she has received freely Matthew 10:8 from God, freely also does she minister [to others]." - Irenaeus, Against Heresies, circa AD 170 "For either they reject the Father, or they accept not the Son and speak against the dispensation of His incarnation; or else *they receive not the Spirit, that is, they reject prophecy* ." - Irenaeus, Proof of Apostolic Preaching, circa AD 180

[@TheJMan31]

I really wanted this to be better than it was. Basically all it showed was that y’all understand the difference between a descriptive text and prescriptive texts. Many think Pentecostals (they do exist) understand this too. The Acts events are brought up as examples of it happening to show that it can happen. Of course many take it too far. What I was hoping would be addressed here are the Corinthian passages that are prescriptive in relation to the spiritual gifts. Maybe they touched on this elsewhere. As a continuationist with a deep Pentecostal heritage, I would love to hear someone like Pastor Joel explain how their hermeneutic is consistent when they maintain that the spiritual gifts were only for back then and there BUT women not being in leadership ministry is for here and now too. Why is it that Paul can lay out clear guidelines in Corinthians and elsewhere for the church in regards to the use of spiritual gifts BUT that was only for back then? when at the same time so many cessationists acknowledge Paul’s clear prohibitions to women in leadership ministry but that extends to now? This doesn’t seem consistent to me but I could be missing something.

[@michaellautermilch9185]

I second this comment, 1 Corinthians 12-14 is the main reason I'm not a cessationist.

[@vladyakubets]

This is just a clip of the larger discussion, I suggest you watch the full podcast in which I’m sure they cover the Corinthian passages

[@jeffbarrett411]

Good point. Its because cessationist is a lie from the devil. Eagerly pursue the gifts; did God really mean that? Same lie as in the garden.

[@nerychristian]

No one has said that the spiritual gifts were only for back then. We are talking about a couple of spiritual gifts. Like the gifts of healing and prophecy. No one in today's church is regularly healing people nor prophecying.

[@josephtripoli5069]

Hey Joel, A question... With you currently aligning yourself with Calvinism/Cessationism, how do you reconcile this with your former time spent in ministry as a leader in the Vineyard Christian Fellowship movement ? (clearly not Calvinism/Cessationism) How did you lead & minister then within the construct of something that you now don't even believe exists ? What controlled/influenced you then to pursue & function so convincingly within something that you actually consider to be totally false now ? Or even your father, for that matter... him being a Vineyard pastor for oh so many years...? Would love some heartfelt & truthful clarification... thanks.

[@chriswrightcook]

This is a conversation about Pentecostal Theology… Let’s be clear, all Pentecostals are Continuationists BUT Not all Continuationists are Pentecostals. In fact there are very many Continuationists that are not Pentecostal at all.

[@beaberean3286]

I'm a bit sad that you seems to say you rejected continuationism because of a false belief that SOME pentecostals hold and not based on the scriptures. I would honestly say that this belief of "tongues=salvation" is definitely a minority viewpoint at least in the western charismatic church today. Maybe 20 years ago it was different. I'd much rather hear you appeal to apostolic succession, even though we still still see others using the gifts even post AD 100 (Iraneous wrote of it) or even 1 cor 13. My last question is this...being that you are postmil----don't you see the value in the continuation of the gifts in order to continue establishing Christ kingdom until the end, until we are all in unity of the faith and the stature of Christ (eph 4)

[@tomtemple69]

I'm a pentecostal and the no tongues=no Holy Spirit is my biggest gripe with pentecostal teaching Especially since there are multiple instances of people receiving the Holy Spirit and there was no speaking in tongues

[@jpfiero]

I don't believe that tounges is nescesary, but I still believe it is possible for God to use tongues today. The point about drawing straws for leaders is interesting. I wonder if we would have better results in our church leadership if we had more faith and let God choose as they did. The way we do it seems to leave far too much room for personal opinions ect.

[@jpfiero]

This video shows how I would see tounges used today, completely from God not s super power that we decide to use. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bGHdg4CGitSIqrs

[@jay-ti7kd]

If the gifts had not ceased it won’t be a discussion These gifts are falsifiable Can the continuous take some poison ? We wud know for sure😂😂

[@kennethreyman3707]

Give me a biblical definition of each of the gifts. We may not fully understand what they were and are making a lot of man made assumptions. I’m a Christian and have yet to hear a BIBLICAL definition of the gifts. Just a though for all theologians to consider. We may not be as smart as we think we are. 😊

[@whatistruth2810]

Mark 16:15-17 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. The Bible never says that the gifts would go away until the end of the world when we “know even as we are known”. Some falsely take that passage to mean that tongues and prophecy will cease with the apostles but that passage is clearly talking about when this age is over and we receive the consummation of our faith and see the Lord. It is well documented that gifts of prophecy and healings were seen well into the 2nd Century after Christ. Even in Augustine’s day he acknowledged that they occurred but not as frequently as in former times. Jesus promised signs following them that believe. James says “the prayer of faith shall save the sick”. To deny this is to call God a liar. Pentecostals are obsessed with tongues and they are wrong that tongues are the only sign of being filled with the spirit, but they are right that the gifts continue until this day if you have faith. The main reason we don’t see the miracles like in the early church is that most believers don’t have faith for it and spend their time arguing against miracles instead of taking Jesus at his word and praying the prayer of faith. Furthermore, if you believe being born again comes before faith you don’t even understand the gospel so how could you understand faith at all. One is born again after they believe. “After that ye believed ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise” Ephesians says. Saying that regeneration precedes faith is the same as to say salvation precedes faith for one who is born again is saved. This denies the gospel of salvation by faith altogether and is another gospel.

[@jimboflex6194]

What about 1 Corinthians 14 wherein Paul encourages not only tongues, but also prophecy and interpretation of tongues? I agree with you on the historicity of the book of Acts, but doesn't 1 Corinthians 14 basically say that at least those three gifts are not only normative for the church, but indeed are also to be desired and sought after? Paul doesn't indicate in that chapter (or anywhere else that I know of) that those gifts will end any time before Christ's return.

[@GustaveLeDisciple]

You’re right, it doesn’t make sense. Paul encouraged the whole church of Corinthians to aspire the gift of prophecy

[@massarassa]

Thank you for this.

[@davidward5225]

Ridiculous argument. “A unique period in time” as determined by whom? Acts records “the beginning” of redemption history, which continues to this day.

[@MeekEarth700]

James 4 8 is clear. We choose to draw close to God. However, only in the US does the notion of Calvinism cause such a terrible stumbling block to Christianity. We have, in the UK, Baptist congregations where Particulars, (Calvinists) congregate happily beside Generals, (non Calvinists). We also have bible study groups of women or men only, because where two or three are gathered together in Jesus name, He promises to be also. No one should surely be opposing such meetings. Matthew 10 20. May Our Father God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

[@johnsteindel5273]

It's just that in I cor 12-14 the gifts including NT prophecy are functioning for the edification of the local church. Its didactic, not historical text, and normative for the Church 'as in all the churches'. 1 Corinthians is "either all normative or none of it is normative". Unless importing a reason for them to have ended, like having the full canon as being 'face to face'.

[@MeekEarth700]

Yes, I'm sorry to say these inconsistencies seem to come from men's fleshly pride. There are men that read into Paul's onus on the men to go home and answer their wives questions, (The notion of women as learners was revolutionary at the time.), as a permanent silencing of women. However Paul's later ministry shows this was far from Paul's intent, where we see women actively teaching and preaching in his ministry. eg Priscilla, Phoebe, Junia and n many more. Romans 16. As to Calvinism this too is clearly wrong. We are to follow Jesus Christ, not the dictates of John Calvin or any man. Psalm 146. It is by following a man rather than our Lord that cults get started. Cessationism is not my personal experience either. If miracles had ceased I certainly would not be here. May Our Father God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit be with us all. Corinthians 12 7 These egotistical men are recognisable by the way they talk a great deal of their own words, without any proper scriptural reference whatsoever.

[@miriamatkinson2890]

Joel what do you say to brothers in Christ who agree that tongues have ceased in America but in far reaches on earth there is an active movement going on now . Ive had this conversation many times with people I love but they always bring up places they hear about but I have no way to verify because I believe with all the linguists and such we have no need for tongues Love your work and the subjects you deal with I pray the lords blessing on it

[@jeffbarrett411]

Salvation is a gift . If the gifts have ceased you can't even get saved. Cessationism is ridiculous on every level. The Bible stands resolute against this satanic teaching.

[@oseiadomako6057]

You guys just threw the Dr. D. M. Jones under the bus 😂.

[@excalibur9141]

I don’t understand what the argumentation here is. Because Pentecost is not sequential in its soteriology, therefore the gifts have ceased? This is quite a niche argument to became a cessationist off of, especially since Pentecostals are only one sect of Charasmatics. I’d like to hear you engage with the actual timestamp passages that clearly state when the gifts shall cease (1 Cor. 1:7, 13; Eph. 4)

[@DarkKontinent]

Super Saiyan Level!!!! Awesome.

[@TheSMEAC]

Right on point 👍

[@joemajor1156]

120 didn't get the tongues gift. The Apostles. You miss that, why not miss a lot. Futurists are captured about the gift speaking in tongues. Did it happen, or did it stop? Why would it stop? Daniel has something to say, as does Paul in 1st Corinthians 13. Futurists are stuck in the transition or millennium. 30 to 70 AD.

[@jasonbatten898]

This argument is very weak in my opinion. There's literally not one scripture that teaches cessationism and there are very clear scriptures that teach continuationism.

[@stephenkeener9565]

I guess we have to agree to disagree ..

[@Tavahead]

When did this gift of tongues end?

[@subrje5546]

Revelation 22

[@fnfjedi]

So did you believe, or did you **choose** to believe when you heard the Gospel in reaction to the conviction of the Holy Spirit when you heard the gospel? To me hearing the Gospel seems like being nailed to the cross, and then like one of the men crucified with Christ you have a choice to make, rail against Christ and His invitation (the first man saying "Set Yourself and us free") or acknowledge the Truth that death is what we deserve and ask Christ to save us (the second man asking Jesus to "remember me when You come into Your Kingdom). Luke 23:39-43 Both heard the Gospel, indeed they witnessed it first hand and yet one still denied Him.

[@kingjames5527]

There is no argument for cessationism. That is a doctrine of devils. The Bible clearly teaches the gifts of the Spirit continue until Christ returns. FACT.