The Tomboy Archetype (and its underlying messages)

Everybody loves a tomboy: the rough and tumble girls who play just as rough as the boys do and aren't into all that girly stuff. But let's take a closer look at this classic archetype that's been around for over a century and see what it might teach us about perceptions of gender and how it gets expressed in fiction.
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[@Respectable_Username]

Perfectly encapsulating the notion that gender equality isn't just equal opportunity between people, but also the equality of esteem in which we hold the notions of masculinity and femininity

[@kellygingrich4302]

Excellent note about the 'growing out of it'. In that sense it's just kids being kids, but then there's still an expectation to eventually 'become a woman' in terms of certain gender performances. Adult tomboys are (in my experience) read as immature, not being a 'proper' adult until they start being more traditionally feminine. Performing as heteronormative woman is often coded to mean adult, mature.

[@someonerandom8552]

Aww so I’m immature? ☹️ *looks at all the geeky memorabilia and geek posters in room* Oh.....okay fair cop.

[@Merilirem]

Society sucks at determining what is "mature" to begin with. I mean how many "mature adults" have you met who were just petty children with bills to pay?

[@robinchesterfield42]

And that's why I say SCREW THAT and go around in public with my nerd t-shirts, jeans, sneakers and no makeup anyway. Like I did to the store just yesterday. Grow out of it? I'm a freaking Gen-Xer. So...no. :P If I have to start wearing makeup and have babies to be considered an adult.......no.

[@47ness5]

I've noticed the "grow out of it" has also weighed heavily in Japanese media for years (specifically in anime and JRPGs). I used to think they were super progressive with non-gender conforming depictions, but yes- all their characters skewed young (and the older ones ended up being villains) and if they had a time skip ending- it was almost always a heteronormative ending.

[@beenheretoolong]

Ok, so what is it when you grow "into" being a "tomboy." 😂 (Ugh, I've always hated those names.)

[@sannh]

Another big problem with the tomboy in movies is that she cannot have female friends, because of the belief that all lesbians are masculine women, so being close with another woman automatically makes her gay. It's also likely the other reason why they tend to be girls instead of women old enough for relationships.

[@lampad4549]

Your really reaching here. No one thinks tomboy are equivalent to lesbians and you cant equate the tomboy to being equal to the representation of a women cause they are not canoically gay. No alot of tomboys are also grown women in film aliens, kill bill, million dollar baby. So many examples of masculine women that are not lesbians. If anything the tomboy archetype proves that women with masculine traits are not necessarily homosexual but can be heterosexual as well and conversly through this troupe it teaches us that not all lesbians have masculine traits as that is the natural lead up. In fact one of the tomboys in this video is a grown woman and so is the bride from kill bill so your argument is fucked.

[@katybechnikova2821]

As a massive tomboy, I can attest that I don't have many girl friends, not close ones at least. :D (Other people might have it different, I acknowledge that.)

[@CLDJ227]

@@katybechnikova2821 To add a little to that, I know a lot of girls tomboy or not that often say they don't hang around a lot of girls because they are too much drama. So they tend to have more guy friends.

[@mikaylaeager7942]

That not always true. If a movie has an true female ensemble there is almost always a Tomboy included. Now and Then and Little Women are some good examples. Its a very common personality type, so if you are actually making an effort to represent women accurately you should have a tomboy. Its only in movies with a single token girl (not passing the Bechdel test) that they seem to have no female friends.

[@NotMeNotYouNotAny1]

*COG:* We're going to be talking about tomboys. *Me, a lesbian:* Oh no. *COG:* Okay, we've talked about queercoding before. *me:* (*sigh of relief*) Oh thank god.

[@neverfinishedstory]

as an adult tomboy, I can say the stereotype in media certainly impacted my personal life. because when I stayed a tomboy in my society post grace period (so true), a lot of what you said came crushing down on me. I often feel my surroundings make me pay for who I am by being unmatchable, or in more liberal society, that I am kinda expected to be gay for my not feminine enough fashion style. s weirdly awkward place to be, and this video is much appreciated.

[@leashvarts8946]

Yep really relate to this. Also I’m an Asexual/Aromantic tombody and there is this expectation that I’m either a butch lesbian or I’m gonna grow out of it soon and start dating guys and become a woman, so it puts me in a very odd position.

[@Percival917]

YOU ARE VALID That is all.

[@23rdFoot]

As a cis hetro woman who at 62 is "still" a tomboy, I can fully understand this.

[@sezzac155]

I relate too. The whole Tomboy vs Girly Girl caused me quite a bit of grief when I was younger because I was /neither/ with quite strong edges I didn't like sports but I didn't like make up or dresses either. But I so so wanted to be a tomboy because that's who I saw the popular kids bringing in to their group. It has definitely impacted how I relate to my gender, I have used 'gender neutral' to refer to both my hobbies and myself separately at varies times. And it probably has impacted my discovery of my sexuality, I am also Asexual (Specifically Grey-A) and I experienced a period of my life that I was tired of the assumption/expectation that I was going to grow out of it and start dating before I knew the terms Asexual, Greysexual and Aromantic.

[@Sasu123456789x1]

I completely relate to this!

[@ErekLich]

Regarding tomboys > sissyboys: I think you're right on the money with this one. I wish it weren't so, but it is.

[@Companion92]

Yeah, I hope we can change it with time

[@dantevaun903]

I believe it's why people also tend to focus more on trans women and why trans men are largely left out of the conversation. It's due to both misogyny and toxic masculinity. And the tomboy>sissyboy thing highlights that as well even though the conversation in the video isn't really going into transness.

[@Syurtpiutha]

Maybe it was just where I lived, but in high school sissyboys would be assumed to be gay and bullied for it. Probably also the case in primary school (even though I had no idea what 'gay' was back then), though then it was more explicitly related to the 'girls have cooties' thing.

[@Seal0626]

@@dantevaun903 I think it also goes some way to explaining the lamentable logic of the TERF, which has at least one root in refusing to accept that people don't have complete control over who they are - men have the upper hand, to go from male to female means a loss of status and privilege, why would anyone do that without a dastardly ulterior motive? And so they make up dastardly ulterior motives rather than admit that it's not a choice.

[@MydieLy]

That one hit me so hard because I realized how spot on it is. 'Downgrading' really made my fists clench. It made me think of that one advertisement where you see a young girl, maybe nine or ten and she's told 'fight like a girl!' And you see her doing Boxing punches. Then you hear the same with a maybe fifteen/sixteen year old girl and she's doing this kind of weird looking catch scratching motions and laughs awkwardly, really trying to make it look ridiculous. The same montage us then done with 'run like a girl!' And at the end there 's text asking: "when did 'like a girl' become an insult?" Ooof... hit right where it supposed to...

[@evaserration6223]

I was doing a drag gig at a family event at a museum once and some little girls asked me "Are you a man? Why are you dressed like a girl?", I asked them "don't you think girls are awesome?", "Yes.", "So why WOULDN'T I dress like a girl?" and they walked away smiling.

[@evancunningham]

This Stuff Like This Makes The Internet Worth It

[@calebleland8390]

Eva, that is one of the best stories I have ever heard!

[@Yoyshaia]

I love that, what an absolute gift of a response to those kids!

[@markpostgate2551]

Al Jolson made the same argument. I'm being deliberately provokative, of thought rather than outrage, I hope. Why would that argument not wash if he made it to justify blackface? What is the difference? I think whatever answer you give you will displease somebody, so throw caution to the wind and be honest.

[@tjchesney4997]

That's a sweet story!

[@AlbinoTanuki]

I honestly don't mind the tomboy as long as they don't present the tomboy as being better than the girly girl or that her tomboy personality lets her get away with things that wouldn't be acceptable if a girly girl did it (like bullying for example). My favorite tomboy is Toph Beifong from Avatar: The Last Airbender; she doesn't let being a girl (or having a disability) prevent her from doing the things she likes and I respect that about her.

[@elenanojkovic2554]

And, as you said, the show doesn't present her way of being a girl as being in any way better then being feminine-Katara, Suki and Ty Lee are all very feminine but are still presented as amazing characters. Mai and Azula are a bit more in between.

[@jazmineszlari414]

As a masc girl Toph became my fav character after Zuko cause the show presents her masculinity in a casual way and they don't point it out every second and is executed far more naturally, I could see myself in her. She still suffers consequences for her actions such as when her dad sent out 2 men after her since she escaped from home.

[@FaeQueenCory]

There's a lot of "I'm not like other girls" in the use of this trope. In this case, ending with "cause I'm like a boy". Which is all kinds of problematic.

[@mathilda6763]

This. It's teaching girls that being like " the other girls"/ feminine is something shameful that makes them weaker and their opinion less valid. It teaches them that they have to separate themself from other women to be seen as capable and their own person instead of some pink-wearing bimbo that was painted in their heads by the media and their upbringing. I do like tomboys in media and reality but the "I'm not like the other girls" -trope is one of my personal pet peeves. What do you call this? Internalised gynophobia?

[@katiehanna90]

confessions of a straight tomboy who's closer to 30 than 20: this system sucks and we need to start over & create one with zero expectations for gendered behavior so everyone can just BE THEMSELVES, DANGIT. you know the song "Woman" from Pirate Queen? she's expressing her frustration over the fact that men, the patriarchy, have claimed ownership over all these things that should simply be HUMAN ASPIRATIONS, human desires: wanting to sail, wanting to fly, wanting to run fast and fight hard and have fun and just ... do daring things with your own body in an outdoor space. that song speaks to me, so much. honestly it should be the exact same way for men, they shouldn't have to face ridicule for doing "feminine things," like no, those are HUMAN things!!! shut up, heteronormative patriarchy!!! (and ... I think you can tell from my profile picture who my favorite tomboy character is xD)

[@kingfarquaad4422]

Well said! I'll admit though, I have poor eyesight and can't tell - it looks like a photo of Paul McCartney to me?

[@rayraffiki1856]

Oh my gods yes! The song Woman! Thank you for reminding me of that. I'm off to listen to it again

[@Aster_Risk]

@@kingfarquaad4422 It's Scout Finch from the movie To Kill a Mockingbird. :)

[@kingfarquaad4422]

@@Aster_Risk Thank You!

[@wolf1066]

Well bloody said! People need to let other people be themselves and acknowledge that we're all humans and therefore there's no "masculine" aspirations or "feminine" aspirations, just *aspirations* that anyone can have. Want to fly a plane, cook a meal, compose a sonnet, cut down a tree...? Doesn't matter who you are, you should be able to do so without someone saying "that doesn't fit our stereotype for who we perceive you to be."

[@deadmanreading3152]

There's also an uncomfortable racial element (okay there's many elements), that for instance automatically label black women as less feminine, louder, rougher, etc. Same thing with 'fiery,' Latinas to an extent as well. Which just puts them in the weird position of actively trying to be more feminine and puts an extra burden on more masculine-type brown women.

[@mere2394]

Misty from Pokemon is canonically nicknamed “The Tomboyish Mermaid”. But she honestly has a pretty balanced personality between her masculine traits and her feminine traits in the anime.

[@ChildOfTheWilderness]

Misty is very feminine though, she wears booty shorts and a crop top & bikinis. Being tough and feminine doesn't make you a tomboy. Having short hair is hardly tomboyish

[@hemming-ways]

Surprised you didn't call out the inherent assumption that tomboys would grow out of it or not getting dates for what it is, though: lesbophobia. It's interesting that feminine boys/men in media get immediately labeled as gay, whereas tomboys are either assumed to grow out of it and into femininity (and, by extension, heterosexuality) or be spinsters, instead of being seen as lesbian-coded. There's probably something to be said here about the sexualization of femme lesbians in contrast with how butch lesbians are presented as more sexual but not sexualized, but then this comment would get really long. Anyway, great video as always!

[@Scroteydada]

One of the many, many reasons why childhood is associated with freedom.

[@borjankosarac3645]

There are most definitely “tomboyish” females, and “campy”/“sissyboys” (I hate that word, but making a point there) males, who are bisexual or straight, but media tells us that they arw either strictly homosexual, or actually trans. Which feels very, VERY reductive to me.

[@patrickt.6492]

You could write a book about this subject, I'm sure. But I think it's telling that feminine men are usually the butt of the joke. How many action movies have made the villain a posh, refined European for our butch American to beat the crap out of? And how many movies have used flamboyant gay men for a cheap laugh? You get the idea.

[@tuxedojunction9422]

If I had to guess, the "they'll grow out of it" reflect the historical reality that historically most lesbians grew up and got married because there weren't any other options, and were passive if not actively unwilling participant in marital sex. Not so much growing out of it as being forced into society's expected role for them. I think that media and society coming down harder on effeminate boys is at least partly due to the asymmetrical attitudes about lesbian sex versus gay sex. I think for a lot of history (the bible is a case in point), if there wasn't a penis involved, it wasn't "really" sex. So lesbians weren't a vilified as gay men because non-penis sex didn't fit in people's (mostly men's) world view. So sissy>>>gay>>>anal sex>>>AAAAAGH!!! GROSS!!! while tomboy>>>>it doesn't matter what she wants, we'll marry her off anyway>>>she'll grow out of it. I don't necessarily disagree with the misogyny argument in the video, but I do think that asymmetry in homophobia plays into the asymmetry of tomboy/sissy portrayals in media.

[@ololo518]

@@patrickt.6492 As an European I'm simply perplexed by this conotations... I wrote it and I saw how sophisticated it looks, but I assure you, we don't talk like that. In fact people in my job tend to laugh at me, that I use to difficult words. But it's really strange to think, that there is a place that be virtue of living here, you could be marked "gay"

[@PeraudisEquilibrium]

First example I can think of where a character keeps her "tomboy" credentials while also married: Zoey from Firefly. Some shows get harder to love as pop culture gets more progressive and our eyes open wider. So far I have not found that true of Firefly.

[@maurinet2291]

It is SO rare to portray a stable couple in an action adventure setting. Period. Because you don't have the crutch of the will they/won't they dynamic for instant tension. Firefly just chose to do it with a different couple.

[@SuperEkkorn]

and she was married to the 'less' masculine of the men. and they showed a relationship filled with mutual love and respect.

[@ololo518]

@@SuperEkkorn who was playing with dinosuars figures and that was great.

[@rayraffiki1856]

I think Sam Carter from Stargate is also a fantastic tomboy. She's a scientist, an engineer and a soldier but she still has relationships, has Cassie who's like a daughter to her, is close friends with Janet Frasier, has at least some of a life outside of Stargate Command unlike anyone else on the team

[@BonaparteBardithion]

@@rayraffiki1856 They did have that heavy-handed "I'm a woman, what about it?" scene when Sam first showed up, but that was fortunately the exception to the trend. I think they even lamp-shaded it later. They were pretty good at spreading the romantic subplots (and kidnappings by evil suitors) evenly across the the team too. Though I notice Sam had more reoccurring and long-term suitors.

[@Marsllama]

Personally I'd say having tomboy characters is fine because it's a reflection of the fact that they exist in real life. The problem is when you start to imply that their value lies in their lack of femininity. For example, I would actually give Arya Stark a pass on this one, because her tomboy-ishness is a key part of her character which is demonstrated to stem from her rejection of her upper-class lifestyle and the rivalry she holds with Sansa. She's just one of the strong female characters in the series, and the message is never that she's strong BECAUSE she's not like other girls. Arya and Sansa contrast so nicely to show different ways in which women can be strong- I actually would say female characters are one of George RR Martin's strengths.

[@Alias_Anybody]

I'd argue that "no man wants to date a (straight) tomboy" is a complete media myth and not reflected in reality. For every guy who's intimidated by a woman able to use a screwdriver there's at least one who thinks it's attractive.

[@nightowl8477]

Either he feels threatened, or it makes him horny?? I don't know if I entirely agree with that, but I know what you mean.

[@Alias_Anybody]

@@nightowl8477 Hot in the sense of attractive/appealing, not immediate arousal if that makes any sense. 😅 I'll edit the comment.

[@nightowl8477]

@@Alias_Anybody - oh, sure yeah haha. I just got this image of a caveman when I first read it lmaoo

[@Alias_Anybody]

@@nightowl8477 What would a cavewoman do with a screwdriver though? :-D Or is she a time traveller?

[@Merilirem]

@@Alias_Anybody Nah bro, you never seen "the gods must be crazy"?

[@maurinet2291]

Love your discussion of cultural misogyny. Over the years, I've gotten more bothered by the fact that female protaganists in fantasy novels are almost ALWAYS tomboys of some flavor. The setting is some period of our "ago" comes with assumed sexism, and boy activities make for a more exciting story. But a lot of it is because their modern authors can't imagine how the girl's sphere of responsibility would be anything but limiting; desired, interesting, or important. Let me tell you, Sansa in GoT was a revelation. She was the embodiment of the experience for probably most girls growing up like that. Yet she's one of the few, if not the one, well-rounded, non-magical heroine I can name in the thousands of fantasy books I've read who wholeheartedly embraced a traditional woman's role.

[@beth7935]

YES, this exact thing pisses me off in historical novels too! The only way a female character can be strong is by being like a man, especially being able to fight. It's a WAY bigger problem with male authors, in my experience.

[@CapriUni]

This is a literary character that was fairly well-known, back when I was in grade school (in the school library, read in class, etc.) that I don't know if people are familiar with, today: Pippi Longstocking. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pippi_Longstocking

[@TheDanishGuyReviews]

I should certainly hope people know her! She's got one of the creepiest threats l've heard from a child: "He thinks my shoes are as big as rowboats, does he? I'll teach him how to row!"

[@abcdefgh6951]

She is tomboy?!

[@CapriUni]

@@abcdefgh6951 Well, she lives independently from her parents, she's strong enough to lift her horse single-handedly, she's willing to throw hands at abusive adults, she doesn't care about adhering to social norms, or the state of her dress... all of which are usually coded as "masculine traits," even if she does wear her hair in long braids. So, yeah. I think she does count as a tomboy.

[@abcdefgh6951]

@@CapriUni why is every character I ever associated with a tomboy, seriously, what is that saying about me?...

[@scouttyra]

I'm fairly certain she is still very popular among children where I live (but then I live in Sweden (where she originates) so ... * Shrug*) Fun fact, iirc there was a bit of a public outcry when Pippi Longstocking was first published, because people didn't like the idea of a child, let alone a girl, being that independent, and rebellious (and breaking gender norms), in 1945. (Edit: added rebellious)

[@teresagrabs488]

I loathe the tomboy trope. My entire childhood was spent listening to "You're just a tomboy; you'll grow out of it" and "If you ever want a boyfriend, you need to grow up." I disagree that these are good characters. This idea of "tomboy" and "sissyboy" needs to stop. People can like what they want, play how they want, wear what they want, etc. This is the systemic beginning that leads to so many things, it's not even funny. The "tomboy/sissyboy" even extends long into adulthood. How many movies and tv shows have shown the "men don't pick the tomboy to marry because she's one of the guys" and "women don't marry the emotional men because they want a "man" who can protect them." It's so BS that starts in childhood.

[@nightowl8477]

Yeahhhh, I kinda agree. I mean, I don't really like *any* generic Hollywood archetypes, they *all* get under my skin, but particularly these two. It just feels weird to push them aside and label them. I think most just want to be included without having to defend their existence. That last sentient applies to many.

[@Arexion5293]

Who the hell thinks that no one wants to date a tomboy? I know plenty of people who would love that, including myself.

[@Sasu123456789x1]

I honestly agree with this 🤷🏾‍♀️

[@Scroteydada]

Relating this to Doctor Who, the Doctor's excitement and curiosity is often portrayed as childish, but maybe that's just a natural outcome of the freedom we only give children.....

[@paulwalker3758]

I like Eowyn (from Lord of the Rings) as a tomboy character.

[@ftumschk]

You're not alone. I thought Miranda Otto played her beautifully, imbuing Eowyn with a remarkable mixture of tomboyishness and femininity, which I found very appealing.

[@WhoTookMyMirr]

I still love that the reason she was the one to slay the Witch King was because Tolkien thought Shakespeare was a coward in writing MacBeth.

[@someonerandom8552]

TheGamingNovice Ha! I didn’t know that. That’s awesome!

[@mathilda6763]

The actress that played her in the movie is ridiculously charming and beautiful. I never had a strong a strong opinion about her in the books but the movie made me like her a lot. compared to Arwen she is a more interesting character but tbh writing multidimensional female characters wasn't one of Tolkien's strengths as a writer. His male characters are written more nuanced and interesting in my personal opinion.

[@thatcheshiregrin]

Only loosely related, but my favorite stories as a kid were always the ones wear the girls have to dress up as boys and go on an adventure. But I'd always get frustrated at the end when she'd go back home and be a girl again. One of those things that made a lot more sense when I realized I'm a trans boy.

[@davidcheater4188]

Another prominent Tomboy, Anybody from West Side Story. She fights for, and wins, a position in the Jets. This is another aspect of the Tomboy, not just a female-bodied person who likes masculine things, but also the proto-feminist who wants to be a subject rather than an object. Going directly back into misogyny - since it positions masculine as active and feminine as passive. This shows up a lot in Rock/Metal/Punk/Hip-Hop/Rap music. Whether it's women who rock or women who rap, women have to take on stereotypically male characteristics to be performers rather than groupies.

[@dothefoxtrot]

My best example of a positive sissyboy is Bow from She-ra. He is very feminine in that he speaks in a higher voice, always wears crop-tops, and outwardly expresses his emotions. I assumed because of this that he was gay, like I'm sure many others have. But, he attends the princess prom with Perfuma and (spoiler alert for those who have not watched season 5 of the show) professes his love for Glimmer, one of the show's main girl characters. He's also a badass warrior. He saves his friends on multiple occasions with his combat and tech skills. What I'm trying to say is that I'm thrilled young boys have Bow as a positive example of un-toxic masculinity and sissyboys.

[@slashandbones13]

As someone who lives in a rural area, most (traditional) dudes don't seem to mind when their girlfriends like similar things to them. As least in my experience.

[@Percival917]

Personally, I will be LITERALLY UNABLE to date someone who does not share common interests. Part of this stems from my autism, but still... Basically, you either love tomboys or you are uncultured.

[@ololo518]

Well, in victorian England it became source of pride for man to have wives that are unable to work for themselves, wallowing flowers, that pass out. This became core to how society percieve women (weaker, pale, very thin). In places where every set of hand mattered (so farming f.e.) women helping with work was valued. So I think that stems from it.

[@gaberodriguez4023]

Is Vasquez really in brown-face? I've watched ALIENS hundreds of times and never noticed that. I always just thought Jenette Goldstein had a darker complexion.

[@someonerandom8552]

Is it bad that I’m basically the archetype of the Tomboy? But no one told me that it was “unlady like” or whatever. I just like what I like

[@Alias_Anybody]

Eh, being a "proper lady" was kind of a luxury and required time and money, even in the past.

[@lwaves]

I'd say that was a good thing. If they haven't told you that, then they haven't tried to fit you to their ideal. You are who you are because you are you. :-)

[@Merilirem]

Its better to not be told who or what you are. I mean who could possibly know you better than yourself? Its pretty arrogant of anyone to think they can tell someone who they are, especially a child. Children including those below the age of 30 haven't fully shown themselves to the world. Even beyond that there are many hidden facets. So it is better to be allowed be who you are than to be nudged into an archetype that may only be similar.

[@katherinegallagher9081]

No.. it's not bad to be any type ( as long as your not inflicting mental/ emotional/ physical harm to SELF or Others, or property) You are very lucky to be supported.. Just remember to return that favor...cause some people don't have that

[@someonerandom8552]

Katherine Gallagher Oh definitely. I believe it’s a human right to express oneself however one pleases. And we should support those (for lack of a better word) choices.

[@martinmaguire-music6692]

That last point reminded me of Robert Webb's (author of 'How Not to be a Boy) understanding of tomboys, at least what he said off-hand in an interview about boys who wanted to be girly, and I think it must have been in the back of my mind somewhere but watching this really spelled out the ideas to me. It feels like there's more riding the back of old-fashioned sexism (whether it's chauvinism or misogyny) than you'd see at first glance.

[@beth7935]

Yes! Such a brilliant & insightful book from a seriously awesome guy!

[@mschrisfrank2420]

As a cis woman who scores high on masculine and feminine traits, I hate being labeled as a tomboy. I love to wear dresses, but I will climb a tree wearing that dress.

[@MydieLy]

Didn't expect I would come here and just stumble across a comment that just sums me up in a nutshell. Thank you, you made me smile so wide!

[@The482075]

Climbing a tree in a dress. Is that impractical? I have never worn a dress in my life.

[@UnfoundFilms]

I didn’t really see Rey as a tomboy especially within the context of the SW universe.

[@CouncilofGeeks]

Given that our previous benchmarks for women in the series (specifically the films) were Leah and Amidala, I still think she counts.

[@UnfoundFilms]

Council of Geeks thats fair I think as a whole they tried to level the playing field in the sequels with both genders doing basically any role.

[@Alias_Anybody]

@@UnfoundFilms After seeing loads and loads of action girls in TCW the case for Rey being a tomboy is IMHO weakened.

[@ramblesrandom]

@@Alias_Anybody Ahsoka Padmé Ventress Shaak Ti Bo Katan Satine Barris Aurra Sing Just to name a few...

[@etherealsky7078]

While not being a tomboy in the SW universe (IMO), there’s a definite case for Rey’s character being linked to gender performance. Especially in 7 and 8 (this idea, like many other things, gets lost in 9). Look up “the heroine’s journey”, which is a story model equivalent to “the hero’s journey”, where the protagonist (usually a girl) reconciles their feminine and masculine sides.

[@tobinjordan8533]

This makes me think about Taming of the Shrew, and the old messaging in that

[@Scroteydada]

The absence of the social archetype of "tomgirl" could be a good starting point for a conversation on how people and media view gender as a set of roles.

[@Percival917]

Personally, I like the term "bishie" for that archetype, derived from the anime archetype of the "bishounen" (literally "pretty boy,") a reflection of Japan's differing views of gender from the Anglo countries.

[@Alias_Anybody]

@@Percival917 Is it though? I'd argue that trope is strongly focused on beauty, not so much on other feminine traits.

[@LydiaTarine12]

I really wish you had also brought in the ‘cool girl’ as part of this since I think, especially in more recent times, there is a lot of crossover between grownup tomboys and cool girls.

[@Sailor_Enchantix]

My favorite tomboy who I think is very well written is Makoto Kino AKA Sailor Jupiter from Sailor Moon. She is strong (both physically and emotionally), she enjoys sports and martial arts, but she's not afraid to embrace and show off her feminine side. She loves to cook, she likes perfume and jewelry and pretty dresses. She's the perfect character to show that girls can be tough without stopping being girls.

[@sigyn27]

I don't think the tomboy trope is inherently bad, but I wish tomboys were seen as all other women, and not as some special category opposite to feminine women. That's why I was at first surprised Rey was included as a tomboy. Because when you look at other characters, they are shown as opposing the norms. While when it comes to Rey, no one tells her she should be more feminine, and she is not shown in contrast to other more feminine women. So, in that sense she doesn't follow the usual tomboy archetype, which is great. I suppose the fact that it happens in a galaxy far far away helps, because the usual stereotypes on how women should behave do not have to apply there. On a side note, I totally agree with the fact that things that are typically associated with femininity are seen as worse. I fell into that trap myself as a teenage girl, who never wore skirts or pink clothes. It was not because I genuinely didn't like them, which would have been perfectly fine, but because they were too "girly" and I didn't want to be a "girly girl", because I saw it something worse than the more tomboyish style.

[@sharonoddlyenough]

I avoided pink for the longest time because when I was younger everything was pinkwashed. There are still even cute little tool kits featuring pink handled tools that cost too much for inferior quality, because women aren't supposed to be doing more than hanging pictures, or tightening screws on the handles of their pots and pans. There's nothing so stupid in my mind as pink camo.

[@mathilda6763]

@@sharonoddlyenough i personally met a bloke that spray-painted all his (very expensive) tools bright pink so they can't get stolen. Everyone in the workshop knew those were his tools because of the colour so of course if they were borrowed they always ended up back in his hands sooner or later. Painting stuff offensively pink can be like a protective charm.

[@sharonoddlyenough]

@@mathilda6763 there's nothing so attractive as a guy who is secure enough to wear pink

[@mathilda6763]

@@sharonoddlyenough 😃

[@benw9949]

It's got to be tough to grow up being a girl. They get this messed up message that they are supposed to be living dolls, cute, sweet, girly, decorative, not doing much except raising babies, blah, blah. They then get the opposite message, oh, it's OK to be a tomboy and act like a boy, rough and tumble, active, doing things, etc. But oh, they're supposed to outgrow it and be little princesses in frilly dresses. Bleh, ugh. What's wrong with being a tomboy? Nothing. Why can't a girl or a woman be both?Integrated, not separated, and not second class to the boys, but equal. -- And the boys don't get it much better. Be rough, tough, no emotions shown even to your best friends, unless it's in very restricted, coded ways. Oh, don't do that, boy, what are you, some kind of sissy, girly-boy, fairy? (How did elves and all gt such a bad rep, dude? Boys grow up getting bullied and put down by other boys (and men) for being anything but hyper-masculine and emotionally stunted. It doesn't make sense for straight boys, and it sure isn't fair to the gay boys, who are not all those stereotypes either. (Growing up, I never would've thought a big ol' football player or bodybuilder would be gay. I somehow missed the possibilities behind "wrestling" because I didn't like the ouch, beat the crud out of each other for fun thing.) Hmm, not where I was going with that. I think both boys and girls in our culture get some very screwy messages about what it is to be masculine and feminine, real men and women. Then on top of that, we get nonsense about being gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, etc., telling people it's perverted, sinful, unnatural, sick, etc., for them to be anything but 100% straight. Well, bull, all of it is bull, and it is toxic. If we are raising generations upon generations of kids to be fearful or unable to show their natural feelings for others, normal friendship and love, family-love, romantic love, sexual love, whether oposite-sex or same-sex or both -- what kind of screwed up adults are we raising from that? I think really it may be underlying a lot of the paranoia we see today about showing affection or showing emotions toward others. I think it may be so toxic that it's creating various problems in people. How well adjusted can you be if you can't just hug your friend and be friendly? Or loving? Why be so awful to all those gay boys and gay girls growing up, and to those gay men and gay women when they are all grown up? And too, how can the not-straight folks have good, loving relationships when so many of us are so delayed into adulthood or late teens, for starting relationships, when the straight kids can have normal growing up learning about relationships (and love and sex and getting along)? This whole thing makes so little sense, when we strp and look at it. Why do we do this to ourselves, as a culture? How can we become healthy emotionally and physically affectionately when we have so much harmful junk piled onto us all, growing up, straight or not? It's not good for us. We have to change how we do things.

[@vampirica89]

I completely agree with you, we all get these gender roles we need to follow, and it's all so strict that virtually no person completely fits into one or the other group. I remember having to hide that I used to play Magic:The Gathering because only the boys in my class were allowed to play it. But I used to hide behind baggy clothes because I didn't want the boys to notice my curves or be sexualized by them. My body grew up way ahead of my brain and I just wasn't ready. Nowadays I fell like a much more balanced person as I freely express both traditionally feminine and masculine traits I have. My interests are varied and my clothes depend on my mood and what I'm comfortable with on the day :)

[@erin4204]

The upward trajectory of being a tomboy definitely has a hard limit though - butches are shamed for not being feminine enough or not balancing masc/femme in a socially acceptable way. I think that also plays into the “she’ll grow out of it” thing - butch adults are expressing their gender and that threatens people who are obsessed with the binary. Butches & studs are harshly discriminated against. My lesbian/gender journey has always been monitored with little comments like “don’t cut your hair” or “you look so pretty with makeup” because cis women are super biased against butches. I blame internalized misogyny! Love your videos, and my favorite tomboy is Buttercup from The Powerpuff Girls!

[@nightowl8477]

I think maybe the reason why tomboys are more accepted than sissyboys is because femininity in associated with liberty in emotion, whereas masculinity isn't. I think there's some low level jealousy going on with a boy expressing his masculinity in a nontraditional way, as a sissyboy would be able to show emotion freely and without fear of judgement. Some people might call this toxic, but they have my sympathy. I think it might be as much to do with misandry as misogyny, but it all comes down to spiteful reactions to people who defy expectations.

[@katherinegallagher9081]

However there is lowkey problems for Tomboys. Regarding emotion...no who like angry or aggressive females,,these trigger name calling like hysterical or B***. Not to mention the standby of blaming it on the Period.

[@madiunknown5013]

Behavior associated with femininity is derided even in women-- The "Not Like Other Girls" is usually born of a desire not the be treated like other girls or stereotyped like other girls. I think that because sissyboys are male, you're mistaking what is derided about sissyboys for masculinity. It's not. It's femininity that's under fire here, not masculinity, and that puts it squarely in the misogyny camp.

[@starpilot15]

@@madiunknown5013 I disagree.From what have sesn.The issue people have with tomboys and sissyboys is that their not 'playing their role'. Cant help but feel that people forgot that tomboys werent always as accepted as they are now.That being too man-ish was seen as a negative trait.The 'Not like the other girls' thing was a rejection to that idea. Sisboys are in the same boat.They dont measure up to what is expected of them as men to people (both men and women) reject them for that.

[@retroactivejealousy-worldl1805]

Once again I think you are bang on. George from the Famous Five novels is my go-to tomboy btw

[@katherinegallagher9081]

😄 someone else who knows Famous Five

[@sezzac155]

Oh wow. That's a good one.

[@Call-me-Al]

I looked up to her as a kid. Not that I thought there was anything wrong with girlier characters, I just connected more to her.

[@retroactivejealousy-worldl1805]

@@Call-me-Al She was my favourite of the 5

[@markpostgate2551]

@@retroactivejealousy-worldl1805 She was everyone's favourite of the five. I've never heard anyone cite a different favourite.

[@Heffeth]

I was a tomboy myself for all of my school time because I destested everything girly and how the others threw themselves at the boys as if this were the only purpose in life. It was an act of rebellion: the harder the others came down on me, calling me "it", the harder I avoided anything associated with womanhood. It took me till university to realise that I was deeply influenced by others expectations and judgement in the way that I denied myself some nice things just because they were "feminine". So I bought myself a summer dress for the first time, grew out my hair and realised that I love those curls. Still I was labeled "intimidating to men" by my best friend when I told her at age 28 that I felt lonely. Took me some therapy to embrace all parts of myself without giving up on anything that is important to me. Age 33 I found my perfect partner, we moved in together last year. He has longer hair than me, takes double time in front of the mirror, has three times more shoes and doesn't give a fuck about tropes neither ❤

[@melenatorr]

This is very interesting. Thanks. There is an ancient Greek example of the tomboy: Atalanta. Her story is a complicated blending of the points you bring up. Here is an extremely truncated summary: *She was abandoned at birth by her father because she was born female. *She survived because a bear discovered and raised her. Growing up wild and away from humanity, she became a ferocious hunter and and supremely fast racer. *She did fall in love with a man, Meleager. Taking part in a famous hunt for a gigantic boar (the Boar of Calydon), Atalanta struck either the first or the killing blow. Meleager awarded her the skin of the boar, and killed his uncles when they objected to a woman participating and benefiting from the hunt. Meleagar's mother, to avenge her brothers, killed her son by means of a magic log (another story). Atalanta swore off love aftr losing Meleager. *Her father took her back after this, and insisted she remarry. She agreed but only if the suitor could beat her in a race. Losers would be killed. Hippomenes resorted to the goddess of love, Aphrodite, to help him out. She obliged by giving him three golden apples to use as distractions during the race. He won (by cheating) and they were married. *The usual epilogue to this is that *they* forgot to thank Aphrodite appropriately and were transformed into a lion and lioness, utilized to pull the chariot of Zeus' mother, Rhea. It's interesting to me that we do have, in Meleager, a man who accepted Atalanta and championed her. Interesting too, that, in effect, he dies for this. Except for this lost relationship, arguably, the only time Atalanta is happy and is in the wild, by herself.

[@someonerandom8552]

Maria Torres I like the interpretation (most likely modern) that Atlanta chose to loose on purpose at the last minute because it gives her some agency in that sense. But yeah you’re right and that’s some interesting observations. Another example from Greek Myth that springs to mind is the Amazons. Warrior daughters of the God Aries, sworn to a life of brutality and war. Sometimes regarded as being lesbian, depending on which version you go to, I suppose.

[@RetroNerdGirl]

I love this conversation! I couldn't agree more with everything you had to say about the disparities. Its so subtle and yet "baked in" as you eloquently put it.

[@0Ninjin0]

I loved your video and when you mentioned how tomboys were expected to "grow out of it" or end up as spinsters, it reminded me of Tamora Pierce's books that I read as a teen. Song of the Lioness follows a girl who wants to be a knight and disguises herself as a boy to become one. But by the end, she isn't forced to choose between being a knight and a woman, she achieves her dream and she gets to fall in love and marry as well. She paves the way for other girls like her to be allowed to train to be knights, and Protector of the Small follows a girl who benefits from the former's paving the way for girls being allowed to train as knights. I especially loved Protector of the Small. Kel didn't have to pretend to be a boy the same as Alanna did and that made her story more interesting to me, 'cause she wasn't just basically Mulan. She wasn't as protected from all the sexism by appearing as a boy in the beginning but had to work her way in as an outsider and had to work thrice as hard as the boys to be accepted.

[@dangreen3868]

One of my favorite tomboy characters is Adora from she ra. She doesn't tend to get viewed as a tomboy, but she has a lot of traditionally masculine traits. She's a jock, she's a solder, she's strong and she's a hero. Something I think is pretty cool about her is that she still gets to be feminine. She has long hair, she's very loving (tho she needs to work on that, thanks for nothing Shadow Weaver), and she's never really portrayed as manly. She's a girl. She's just also a hero, also strong, also a jock. It helps that the show has a wide variety of female characters that are all feminine in their own unique ways, and none of them are shamed for it. I think that's pretty neat.

[@calebleland8390]

You had my favorite tomboy right in the thumbnail: Ace! I was just entering my teens and becoming less confused about who I was, and there was Ace running alongside The Doctor. She was a badass, and I wanted to hang out in the TARDIS with her. As for the rest of this video, wow. Again, you made me really think about how this all gets presented to us as viewers. I had never thought much about the misogyny involved before, but it makes so much sense. Thank you for another great presentation, and expanding my views every time.

[@emilyrowl9421]

I don’t think you’re a fake geek.

[@Scroteydada]

Bottom comment oof 😂

[@lunaskies624]

Excellent and very thought provoking. Fully agree with the point you make about misogyny at the end.

[@nicnaknoc]

I FRIGGING LOVE Sissys - so so so much .... Any and all straight/bi/ace Sissys out there -CALL ME- ;) any other Sissy just wanting/needing to be told they are hella amazing you call me too, just tell me not to be a flirt ;) .... look at that I adore the Sissys so much that just the mentioning of them have me getting creepy on the interwebs :S Sorry about that, still gonna let the comment stand just because someone might need to know they are desired as they are.

[@Percival917]

I, uh... Hate sports and seem to be developing some mild interest in fashion. That enough?

[@avril4844]

@@Percival917 YES!!! You're amazing!!!

[@nicnaknoc]

@@Percival917 well I'm not gonna tell you what you are except for you being amazing and just the right amount of you 💚 do you want a hug, high five or kiss 🤗🤚💋

[@beth7935]

@@Percival917 You had me at "I hate sports." :D (Joking; no intentions of internet sleaze here either!)

[@Ba-pb8ul]

I agree with a lot of that, but not all. Usually, being a tom boy in cinema is not a safe space. Think of Jodie Foster, both in Carny - before the lesbian come-on - or The Little Girl Who Lives Down The Lane. In both cases, for example, the girls are entrapped (usually by a world where masculinity is cojoined with economic necessity). Or Ginger Snaps, where puberty leads to both body horror (and, as a corrollary, unwarranted attention).

[@someperson5961]

Tomboys exist in cinema because tomboys exist in real life. And have done, and have been described as such, before cinema, or photography in general, was invented or even conceived of.

[@markpostgate2551]

People always blame the mirror for what it reflects.

[@findyourcenterbbc8483]

George Fayne from the Nancy Drew series is my go to tomboy.

[@daynalewis5261]

This immediately made me think of She's the Man - when she finally gets together with Channing Tatum, she's wearing a dress as she decides to go to the ball even though throughout the whole movie she showed no interest in wanting to do that, and yes she gets to play soccer but it's with her hair down showing that she's a girl (in contrast to the other guys) when nobody with long hair would play like that

[@someonerandom8552]

To be fair, She’s the man is a loose adaptation of Twelfth Night. So the gendered coding could just be a clumsy translation from the source material. I do agree with you though. The ending betrayed the character and all sporty girls I know would tie up their hair if it was long.

[@Lil-Dragon]

Been considering one for ages seen how people react about it for a while. Also love the vest

[@bookishdaydreams4993]

I definitely think you have a point about sexism playing a big role in why everyone loves the tomboy, but growing up as a girl, basically the only strong female characters I saw on screen or in books were tomboys - so of course I loved them. The more feminine female characters were often portrayed as weak, delicate, and illogical, so I don't think it's entirely the audiences fault for preferring the tomboys.

[@Talpfote]

The first thing that came to my mind was Sam from iCarly/Sam and Cat. I haven't watched both shows in a while, gotta be honest, but she was very cool in my eyes.

[@agnetebutk]

Even though I didn't know that (or considered) lesbian was an option when I first watched iCarly, Sam and Freddie just seemed off, something didn't fit there, looking back, I definitely saw her as a lesbian, just didn't know.

[@rashkavar]

So...I may be having trouble with the border of tomboy characters, but here's a few portrayals that tackle sexuality a bit more directly: Margaret Houlihan from MASH - the show, not the movie, and in the later seasons when they actually get some character development. She's career military, independent, doesn't have female friends for the most part (though that fits - she's chief nurse in a military camp, the other women she's with regularly are nurses who she supervises). The first 4-5 seasons, her sexuality is more of a joke, but...that is a critique that can apply to a good chunk of that era of the show, so maybe start at season 5 or 6. Also, uh...this is a show from the 70s, it's ahead of its time in some ways but in others it is very much a product of its time. A couple of characters from Star Trek Deep Space 9 - Jadzea Dax, by virtue of having memories of being Curzon Dax and other characters along the way, Major Kira with her backstory as an insurgent, There's a one-episode character named Pel from the episode Rules of Acquisition (S2E07) who is a Ferengi woman who takes it to an extreme - she still identifies as female among those she trusts most, but she dresses as male, wears prosthetic ears (male Ferengi have larger ears than female Ferengi). This is perhaps pragmatic, due to how misogynistic Ferengi society is, but she is very masculine by the standards of the culture, aside from having a very cishet love for Quark. (The conflict between her choice to live as a man and this cishet love for a Ferengi traditionalist like Quark is a major part of the episode. Stargate has a couple of women that fit this - Sam Carter and Tayla (SG-1 and Atlantis, respectively) are both characters in roles that are traditionally male-dominated (though in Tayla's case, that's applying Earth norms to a culture from a different *galaxy* so...who knows if male leaders are more common for her people), and both shows represent them having some kind of sexuality/romance. (Tayla's is just that she has a husband who's mostly a background character, but he's there) Again, this might be crossing the boundary from tomboy specifically to just strong female characters who buck archaic gender norms, I'm not good at figuring out the exact borders of tropes...but...at the very least these mostly feel like the kind of women that tomboys would be likely to grow up to be.

[@AnaCosta-sq7lo]

Cis woman here. I remember some years ago, while doing a pair work for college, my colleague (female) told me :"You think like a man". She meant it as a compliment, and I immediately took it as one. But 2 seconds later it hit me how messed up that was. I am quite masculine in appearance, because dressing in a very feminine manner makes me feel extremely vulnerable /uncomfortable. At 32, I cannot tell if this is just a pure personal preference, or a consequence of my very religious conservative background, where men were in control and women were obedient (overly controlling father and submissive mother)... making me feel the need to present as a man, to somehow feel in control, not being submissive to other people... these things bother me sometimes...

[@mathilda6763]

Even if it's a result of your childhood, it's still an aspect of you as a person and ok as it is. Dressing in clothes that make you feel comfortable and in control is good . You should wear clothing that you like. As long as you don't hate yourself in tiems you are vulnerable (which happens fro every human that feels things) or dicriminate against people (no matter then gender) that think differently about wearing/representing more "girly" , there's nothing wrong with it. There's a lot of aspects of our personalities that we're not born with (i.e. nurture snd personal history instead of nature) and that still make us into the person we are. May it be the hobby we picked because someone we loved supported us, the food we grew to love/hate because it was made by a caretaker in our childhood , the sports we started to like because we got exposed to it in an impressionable moment of our life...same goes for worldview and political opinon, may they chang or stay the similar the first political and moral views of a child probably come from the family and it depends on the person if they start to question/reforming their views as they grow older.. However different than politics...comfort-clothing just like comfort-food is totally normal and cool ...as long as you don't feel like it hinders you or you expect others to be the same.

[@layliwhyteoliver7545]

As a tomboy, and mother of a boy whose favorite colors are pink and purple, I watched this video nodding so vigorously I may have snapped something in my neck. ;)

[@DavidMacDowellBlue]

First--I agree absolutely, whether I'd actually thought about the specifics of this issue. Bravo! And brava! Second--on a personal level this helps clarify something I'd noticed by two lesbian characters I've created sor my stage plays. I was a bit worried by the fact both climbed trees as children. One had this in effect broken from her by parents, teachers, etc. demanding she behave more like a lady, i.e. a doll. That play is about her reclaiming her wildness. But the other had great, fantastic father who encouraged her. Now she's adult she doesn't climb trees too often, but she does climb buildings. Sometimes. More to the point, she's a fencer and quite capable of defending herself. So, they are individuals rather than just the chart of what is the "ordinary".

[@scouttyra]

This made me think of a quote from the Swedish author Astrid Lindgren (creator of possibly Swedens most famous tomboy; Pippi Longstocking) "Det står väl inte i Mose lag att gamla kärringar inte får klättra i träd!" (My translation: "it doesn't say in the law of Moses that old crones can't climb trees, now does it!")

[@jayh5559]

Katie Sackhoff's Starbuck. I love 'the Bad News Bears'. Although, Tatum O'Neal (with her dad) in 'Paper Moon', please. (And now I see there was a 'Paper Moon' TV series with Jodie Foster; I have my research to do.....) Thank you.

[@LuuGolinski]

Yes, I also thought of Starbuck in the newer bsg series, definitely. But maybe also Boomer 🤔 She got a small family later, which, if she counts as tomboy, seems a good plot.

[@nellebolton7910]

A note you didn't really touch on: the prevalence of heroines who happen to be "tomboy" characters in modern films and TV can also be damaging to those girls who like makeup and fashion and romance and all that traditional feminine stuff. Because more often than not "girly girls" are shown as either useless airheads or bullies. And seeing yourself constantly portrayed in that way can be extremely damaging. Which... you're right. It all comes down to misogyny. Often characters who like traditionally masculine things are good. Are heroes. Those who like traditionally feminine things are bad. Either villains or cowards or bullies. That's not the sort of lessons we want to be teaching the next generation

[@rjwalker1726]

100% agree it's misogyny, I've always thought that. Like how nobody would laugh at me if I wore a suit to a wedding (they might find it a bit strange but it would not be a source of mirth) but god forbid a guy wears a dress. I had a conversation about it with my mum, she said 'well it's just funny to see a man in a skirt'. I asked her, 'is it funny if it's a kilt or one of the many other national dresses that are, well, dresses'. She had to agree it was not. I pointed out that this was because those are masculine outfits of different cultures so really it's just that a guy is wearing a WOMEN's clothes, that he's associating with the lesser sex and that's why people laugh. I have to say she got it after that. Fav tomboy.....hmm....probably Marion Ravenwood from Raiders (she was the first female character that I could see myself in)

[@alanfriesen9837]

I may be out of line here, but I feel like the kind of enlightenment about people being able to participate in traditionally male or female aspects without necessarily having to sacrifice participation in traditional aspects of the other gender is a social attitude that's been parabolically progressing from the middle of the twentieth century to today. And because of this trajectory I wonder if the very legitimate complaints that you've made may not be so much flaws in the characterization of these women, but rather accurate portrayals of the limits that society placed on them at the time that these stories took place. Tomboys in the 1940s (A League of their Own), or the 1970s (The Bad News Bears), or even the fantastical periods in "Game of Thrones" or "Brave" which have author-assigned orthodoxies mimicking medieval Europe, might very well have had to make these choices because of the conservative nature of the times and societies represented. I do agree that for such characters going forward set in modern semi-enlightened societies (I wouldn't expect it for something set in today's Saudi Arabia for instance) that this dichotomy of choice probably shouldn't be so present.

[@benj3565]

Interesting to think about. I don't think any characteristics are inherently male or female, but obviously society perceives them as such.

[@etherealtb6021]

Wow. Never would've thought of ANY of this. Thank you. I think I'll actually enjoy tomboy characters more now. Sidebar: Have you ever seen the Katherine Hepburn/Cary Grant movie, Sylvia Sydney? Kinda is about everything in your video, so you might find it interesting. Lol.

[@gracjanlekston134]

The growing out of it part is complicated since alot of tomboys do grow out of it, I personally know both tomboys who stayed tomboys and former-tomboys who became more feminine, 2 of my sisters fall into the latter category and it didn't happen out of pressure from my parents but more from hanging around other girls.

[@OhNoBohNo]

I think that might’ve been your best intro yet xD Also, I think one issue is the inability to let female characters fully explore more masculine or even outside-the-binary traits, expression, and gender. It stifles and boxes-in where there could be genuine 3-dimensional characters who consist of more than just ‘tough girl’

[@Beacuzz]

I have mostly male family. So I grew up as a tomboy. And it is interesting for me to note that as much as my family has a strong tradition of everyone having an art/craft my dad is always ashamed of his artistic sense. He sees color well and knows how to mix and match them well. But if you point that out he changes the topic and avoids it like the plague (And yeah my dad's very binary on gender)

[@zeroender]

I’ve eliminated the word from my vocabulary and I refuse to have my daughter described as a tomboy. She doesn’t deserve to be limited by backwards thinking.

[@Percival917]

One of my most recent fictional tomboy loves is Sora Ikushima from Tokyo Xanadu, a game I seriously doubt anyone else in this comment section knows about but here I go anyways. As soon as I saw Sora's short blue hair and gauntlet weapons in the intro of the game, I knew I would love her. And sure enough, she's the third party member you meet, being recruited in the second half of chapter 2. She's a childhood friend of the main character, Kou Tokisaka, or as I like to call him, "captain save-a-**." Ok, jokes aside, Kou is also a wonderful character as well, but his dynamics with Sora and the game's main heroine, Asuka Hiiragi, help flesh out all three and endear them to the player. Sora is a highly talented martial artist, but unlike a lot of tomboys, she is shown to be very well-mannered, showing respect to everyone as befitting a disciplined martial artist. Both she and Asuka Hiiragi are shown to be better fighters than Kou, not only carving a niche for her in the party's characterizations, but helping establish Kou not as a powerful savior, but as an underdog determined to do the right thing even when Hiiragi insists he not get involved. In fact, where another male anime hero would worry for Sora when she gets in a fight, Kou is worried on behalf of whoever Sora is fighting. Kou knows and respects Sora's strength, and this makes both characters look better. That's all I can think of right now. I'll end with something I read in a meme clearly made by a fellow person of culture. "Sorry, Stacey, but in the real world, the tomboy gets the Chad."

[@johannageisel5390]

I really want to see more well done sissy boy characters that are not played for laughs. IMHO, Kurt from Glee was one. I loved that character. I think he's badass.

[@vallara1974]

One, imo, great exception to the archetype is one of the earliest, "to kill a mocking bird" has always been one of my favs (book and film), where it is not about gender, as far as I ever noticed, just about the individual person, might have to do with the author though. :P

[@skycendre257]

As a 28 years old, pansexual tomboy woman, I must say I never identified with, related to and even particularly liked tomboy characters, and I've been asking myself why. You shed light on it - it's the expectation that the tomboy girl will grow out of it at some point, that being a tomboy is something deeply tied with immaturity and sometimes, with not wanting to accepting reality. "If you don't stop acting like a man, boys will never like you", "the sooner you'll start being more feminine, the easier your life will be" and so forth are all things I've been told all my life, and it somehow got backed up by all the "tomboy girls" representation I've seen in media (or almost). A tomboy woman is almost always lonely, doesn't fit into society, often unable to even find love, sometimes even considered a weirdo. While a tomboy-ish girl is adorable but ultimately delusional and/or on the wrong track of life, everybody wishing she will soon start behaving "more like she should". Now I see that I never really had anything against tomboy characters. I indeed love Arya Stark (especially the novels' Arya Stark, I hope you'll start being a real geek soon and read them ;), and one of my favorite movie characters is Furiosa (Mad Max: Fury Road) which can be considered the poster-child of tomboy-ness. It's how they're often treated by the media portraying them that bugs me. So yeah, thank you for this analysis, and I damn love that hat.

[@hermesdosanjos4765]

What do you think about Veronica Mars as an example of a Tomboy archetype???

[@cmmosher8035]

As a young boy I played with my little pony and She Ra as much as Heman and GI joe. I remember asking my parents if girls could wear boys clothes why boys can't wear girls clothes. As a child of the 80s I got alot of negative pushback and I thought my mom was going to die the one time I asked if girls could be tomboys what boys be if they were more like girls. The answer was a sissy and damn did I get the message that was a bad thing. At 40 I have become rather comfortable with being a cis heterosexual male not very interested traditionally masculine activities.

[@annelisekubecka5829]

I'm surprised there was no mention of Gogo from Big Hero 6 who I think might actually be Bisexual seeing as how in the animated series she's "temporary roommates" with the more girly Honeylemon

[@tarabound]

Without tomboys on tv and the movies in the 80s, I would have felt so much more confused and isolated. GI Joe was my joy. Scarlett, appeared feminine, but she was intellegent and collected when under fire. Lady Jaye was more tomboyish in appearance, but still came off as womanly. There were at least 6 women characters on the show that all were powerful in different ways. I know it was a silly show to sell toys (which I was secretly buying against my parents will, since they would only buy me barbies), but they were treated as soldiers, not support staff. If gave me hope that there was a future that wasn't wedding dresses and raising children.

[@SwordVader]

Calamity Jane is probably my favorite example of this.

[@gingerbell07]

I don’t know if you’ve read the books GoT is based on, but I get the feeling Brienne of Tarth is trans in a world that doesn’t have the language or even concept.

[@gingerbell07]

Lol just got to the part of the video where you say that you haven’t read the books. You should, though.

[@ianrusttattoos]

I never understood why it wasn't "Tomgirl". Like, if I'm right in assuming that it's a nod to "tomcat", then doesn't that mean "tomboy" essentially means "male/masculine boy"? It's weird.

[@markpostgate2551]

Cats are feminine though... yet still it is weird. But think of how "bitch" has different meanings depending on if the target is male or female. If you want to call a man brutal or aggressive you might call him a "cur" which means a male dog or possibly just a "dog" (although probably not this side of the 1900s with either of them! They are simply not offensive enough to be effective any more! But you might have done in the past.) And a female cur would be a bitch, so when you call a woman a bitch you are saying she is brutal or aggressive like a dog, but when you call a man a bitch you are alluding not to his doggishness, which is taken forgranted because a dog is a masculine animal, you would be referring instead to his femininity, so "bitch" is weird because it can be used to accuse a woman of being masculine or a man of being feminine, because the default assumption is dog's in general are masculine. Cats in general are feminine, and that may be why a boyish woman is a tomboy - the feminine part is implied by the cat-allusion.

[@NerdsBehavingBadly]

I don't think Jo March necessarily overcomes her tomboy tendencies when she marries *in the book*, she just grows more comfortable with herself. Unfortunately I think the 2019 adaptation played right into the problematic aspects of this trope when it made her stay single

[@sakunaruful]

According to Louisa May Alcott, Jo was supposed to remain single devoting her time to writing. However, to get the book published, Alcott's publisher forced to her to give Jo a love interest. Enter Professor Frederich Bhaer, a German professor whom Jo marries.

[@lisakaz35]

I always figured that if I got a PhD, I was assigning myself to being single. Men are intimidated by lots of things and smart women is one. And yes, I have a PhD and never married. Frankly, men were such a disappointment (perhaps because I never dumbed myself down) I'm not sure what role the degree played, in the end. The potential of me having the degree was enough.

[@PartridgeQuill]

Excellent analysis! This was really well articulated. I love tomboy characters, and the things you mentioned often frustrate me, so it's refreshing to hear someone else say something.

[@adorkability]

A big tomboy character from when I was a kid was Jo Polniaczek (Nancy McKeon) on the sitcom The Facts of Life. While she was very masculine, the writers always made sure there was a male love interest for her so that the viewers knew she wasn't gay, which would have been a big no no in the early '80s. They also made her more feminine in the later years of the series when was and becoming an adult.

[@robertmiller9735]

I think they did the same in Cagney and Lacey. Cagney is less feminine-looking so her husband is a frequently recurring character.

[@finn7435]

kind of unrelated (i loved the video, it was great and pointed out a lot of important things!), but i love the combination of your hat having gender words on it and then your shirt saying “not today”. subtle rejecting of the gender binary

[@yarnpenguin]

Confessions of a tomboy as a 38-year-old lesbian: I was very tomboyish growing up. I didn't enjoy sports (had SEVERE "stopped breathing completely sometimes" asthma), but had few appropriately girly interests as a kid--it was Star Trek, Star Wars, video games, sci-fi/fantasy, TMNT, Transformers, etc, plus My Little Pony and She-Ra. But not unlike Ms Jo March... I was desperately lonely. The other girls ostracised me for not liking Barbies; the boys ostracised me because I wasn't a boy. This carried on through high school--eg, Xena & Babylon 5 instead of Dawson's Creek, etc. I had TWO FRIENDS from grade 2 to grade 12 (both relatively tomboyish girls themselves). As I've grown up, I've got more feminine trappings on the outside, but my interests are still "boy stuff"--and men STILL don't want anything to do with me in their spaces because... Reasons. As an adult, one thing I've really noticed is that (when fans aren't calling them Mary Sues) these tomboy characters in modern media--from Friendship is Magic to Game of Thrones--seem to be vastly more popular than their more feminine counterparts, though this could be said to go back even further (eg, Ivanova seems more popular than Delenn in Babylon 5). And I like Rainbow Dash and Arya and Brienne etc, too! But seeing them held up on a pedestal over Rarity or Sansa or Margaery... bothers me. I feel like this comes down to masculine > feminine. The tomboy is more popular than more feminine men because masculine is the acceptable default and feminine is an aberration. I can wear pants; Billy Porter gets backlash for wearing skirts. I can wear nail polish; Travis McElroy has gotten flack for wearing it. And I've just written a novel so... I'll leave it here. I have no answers; just observations.

[@robinchesterfield42]

One time when I was a kid, a neighbor lady saw me climbing a tree and made some comment like "You're such a tomboy!" Now, this being Mormonland, I think she probably meant it as an insult, but I went "Huh." and have kinda described my style as "tomboy nerd" ever since. And oh HAYELL nah I haven't grown out of it. I'm...older than my 20s, put it that way. As for the tomboy vs. sissyboy thing, well...reminds me of another trend: Look at names. Ever seen a FEMALE name eventually become a BOY'S name...? ...yeah.

[@dreamingnight13]

I agree with most things said, but I think it might be worth to mention the 'cool girl'-trope in this conversation as well. A lot of 'cool girl' characters are basically tomboys, but they always happen to be effortlessly 'good looking'. There are a lot of masculine-coded things I like (drinking beer, gaming, engineering, etc), and people often act as if they find these traits in girls cool/attractive, like these are unique traits for a woman to have. Yet when I point out to them that I myself and plenty of other women I know enjoy these things as well they act as if we are the exception. Not to woman having these traits. But an exception to being women. "We don't really count in that discussion" as it were. I was once in a pub with a couple of classmates, all men, and they were literally talking about that they wouldn't hesitate to ask a girl out if they knew she liked to drink beer.... while I was sitting there with my pint. 🤦‍♀️ I'm ace, so I didn't really take it personally, but they didn't know that at the time and that really showed me how weird this double standard can be and how blind people themselves are to it

[@Athena963]

thank you for talking about this. this is an important topic, and it was nice to hear you discussing this. i love all your videos, you always handle heavy topics delicately.

[@jilliancorvus]

Holy shit, I hardly see other people mentioning Elvira Kurt! One of my favorites. As for tomboys - Menolly. Absolutely Menolly from McCaffrey's Pern books. (also your hat is amazing and makes me wish there was a version nearly that cool/funny for us agender folk, lol)

[@23rdFoot]

1) McCoy in "Streets of Fire" a part that was written for a middle-aged man. 2) Rogue value: Anybodys from "West Side Story" who gets no acceptance from anyone.

[@cathunsworth7915]

Loved this. Thank you. I punched the air at 13:00 when you raised misogyny/patriarchy as the reason why masculine traits are laudable but feminine traits are only tolerable within very tight boundaries. Lots to object to about s8 of GOT, but I liked that Arya got to explore her sexuality without having to sacrifice any of her identity, before or after.

[@TheWuschi]

Another perfect video essay! I love your work so much, and I do love your presentation! Greetings from an Austrian ex-tomboy from the 1960ies, who managed to grow into... well, what could the term be?? Tomoldfart? - Whatever... ;-))

[@BruhsCookieJar]

Bit hesitant to watch this. However it popped up today. I think because I watched your positive masculinity. Then your gay coding one popped up too. I was thinking, “oh Vera did a set recently!” Nope, this one is from 4 years ago 😂.

[@rebeccagibbs4128]

This one's for meeeeee! Can I say, when i lost my hair three years ago (permanently bald, folks) as a former/current tomboy i was worried that i would now no longer be straight passing since i assumed, was told, was reinforced by the discourse, that my hair was - as Amy from Little women said, "my only beauty" my default "I'm cis! and feminine and womanly," to counter act my tom boy everything else. Think that also came from homophobia, that people thinking i was 'butch' or a lesbian was the 'worst thing' when i was growing up. It was only a little voice in my head, that i purged, crucified and now dance on the grave of everyday when i rock my beautiful body in all it's feminine glory, and i have reassessed the ingrained predjuces i had before from growing up in the 80s and 90s where any woman who wasnt in a dress or soft spoken was automatically a lesbian.

[@aaronkelly1762]

You need to watch more anime if you think people hate femboys, or “sissies” as you put it. Like Astolfo from the Fate franchise is the poster boy for that archetype.

[@greghawkins59]

Omg the outfit 👌😂

[@PogieJoe]

Thanks for sticking up for us sissy boys. 😁

[@anthony3557]

Anybody's (in 'West side story') is the one tomboy character I can think of whose supposed lack of femininity is not necessarily welcomed by her peers. The Jets don't systematically demean her, but she's not really a fully-fledged member of the group, and the name by which she's known alone has an undercurrent of misogyny. I've tried to be careful and respectful in my choice of language here, but I'm the first to admit I'm no expert here, so apologies if I've put anything badly - please feel free to correct me!

[@anthony3557]

I'm aware this may be considered slightly ridiculous by some, but as a side note, when I got a puppy, it was in the knowledge that I didn't want her to be the pampered princess type that seemed to be common at the time. She has ended up as something of a tomboy - she loves a bit of rough and tumble, and doesn't do airs and graces - but it was more of a reaction against the opposite archetype.

[@AlenaLinLa]

I always loved Joey from Dawsons Creek growing up. But yes I think you are absolutley right about this.