The true reason why Astarion wants to Ascend | Astarion's Saddest Dialogues - Baldur's Gate 3

[@chronoxtreme2427]

It's insane hearing him speak in that second dialogue option ("He truly broke you") and hearing him talk exactly like he does when he's the Ascendant: angry, vengeful, arrogant. But we know the reason why. Underneath that rage, he's hurt and scared and just wants to be safe. An absolutely incredible performance that really makes this scene punch you in the gut.

[@drakearvidsson6936]

Not really astarion laughed at my advances in act 1 saying that the mere idea off anyone being with me was in a word just ”ew” Seeing cazador step on him brought a grin to my face

[@ColdEthyl92]

Another reason why Neil deserved his award

[@deepstonecostco]

I don't know if it was a bug itself or if it's bugged now, but it used to be that when he started saying "a year of silence" the music would cut out along with all other sound, so all you could hear was him reliving it. I hope it was intentional cause PHEW it added so much to the scene.

[@pikajulie_art]

There's a video clip for this execution (the silence thing) from 6 months ago, but I think it just so happened that the video clips were spliced or the background OST ended: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bX63eJqhl8-Lmassi=Q0V6x8nz8IR5VAyU There's another upload from 4 months ago that shows there was no silence scene at the same camp location: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r2Wwi4GhjLisfLssi=DFFmYpbz5rQgfX7n I was bamboozled on why I couldn't get this scene after romancing Astarion thrice, and I'm also a sucker for such cinematic antics. 😩 The silence would've added WEIGHT as he tells his past. But if there is one scene where the silence was properly executed, it's when you're playing as Durge, then Astarion asks if the urges are calling again. Choosing the dialogue options where Astarion opens up about how he and DUrge are alike would result in the bg OST cut off--just pure silence. I played as DUrge twice, and that interaction is one of my favorites! I wished other romance companions could've had more automatic, non-dialogue prompt input about DUrge getting the nightmares though (I mean...they're their partner 😭).

[@deepstonecostco]

@@pikajulie_art Interesting, it happened to me 3 times so I figured it was intended but maybe I just had amazing timing haha

[@RaspberryRenegade]

Just watched the clip with silence and damn, you're right! I was misty-eyed with the soundtrack because the performance is amazing, but having no music hits that much harder.

[@m22d889]

I like how realistically this game portrays the healing part of trauma and abuse. Even if you escape or defeat your abuser irl, it doesn't give you back the time (years or decades) that was stolen from you. Astarion is a vampire, forever young, but irl people lose their lives - their youth, beauty, the peak time of their lives - to the trauma they endure. You can heal, you can move on but you can never forget. Those memories forever haunt you and not everyone is lucky enough to find a Tav for themselves.

[@ToeBeanCozy]

You get one life, and they ruin it for you with their malice and their bullshit and you're just supposed to move on.

[@mun3698]

As someone who relates to Astarion’s abuse I’ve healed quite a bit (with more healing needed). I find myself wanting my own Tav irl. Someone who likes me for me and is there for me when the going gets rough. Someone who actually puts in the time and patience I need in order to start sharing parts of myself. No one has stuck around long enough though. I need someone special to pop into my life - even if just as a friend. It’s nice to see this kind of story play out.

[@m22d889]

@@ToeBeanCozy Exactly. Scores of friends and well-wishers will advise you to just forget about it like a bad dream and move on. That's not how it works. You never forget. You can move on which is hard as hell but you can't forget. It's very easy to say that but completely different for the one who's been through it.

[@m22d889]

@@mun3698 The story truly is phenomenal. I was drawn to Astarion due to his beauty, his wit and his charm but I fell in love (hard) for his personality and his story. It's not a typical emo vampire story but so layered that it's as realistic a story as any I've ever read/seen. It's the best protrayal of trauma imho. The way he deals with it thru anger, spite and resentment is realistic. Years of trauma has made him vengeful, he is not your typical Edward Cullen loathing in self-hatred, Astarion is a man driven by revenge. He still has the light of life within him even if his heart stopped beating centuries ago. His spirit still wants to love, live and fight, which I truly admire. And even when he gets his revenge, it's not over for him. There is years' worth of trauma, abuse and degradation to heal from which is going to be messy which is why he is cautious and tender in his romance with you. If you try to break up with him, he's heartbroken but understands because he doesn't consider himself worthy. But if you stick around, he has the brightest, most genuine smile of his entire life and admits to enjoying living finally. It's a treat to watch his story, however it ends. I hope you continue to heal and find your Tav one day. There's billions of us on this planet, I'm sure you'll find your Tav who will not only be patient, supportive and caring but also help your healing process. Don't be afraid to put yourself out there. *sending virtual hugs*

[@alessandrogarofalo9951]

Astarion's story is so sad. I know what it's like to live in an abusive ambient, with a piece of shit as a father choosing for you and making you feel bad even for breathing. I know how he feels, the shame that follows every thought you make, every memory in your mind. And even when you leave, even when that hell ends, you'll never heal, that trauma will always be with you. But above all, the time you lost, the suffering you endured, nothing will erase them, no one and nothing can and will repay you for that. At least he has his revenge at last, but that is a game, life usually never gives you that chance. But as I said before, not even revenge can pay you back for everything you've lost.

[@kennedyflint6140]

I hear you, 💯. My father was abusive as well. I have seizures so i legally couldnt drive so i was stuck inside for years with him not being able to get out. I never had friends over, i was completely isolated and It took me years to get the courage to get out (which i was and im very thankful) but it still bothers me that i can never get back the time that was lost. I hope you are doing better now, and that you no longer have to worry about any of that. I will pray for you ! 🙏🏻

[@jacquesc0usteau]

I love Shadowheart walking past with spirit guardians still up

[@Sun_cica]

It just shows you that he knows how to do good, that he wasn't evil to beging with and you can help him remember that or make him super villan who only cares about himself

[@Kasiarzynka]

This and the fact that at least on two different occasions, he can tell you he pities the other spawn. Once in act 1 when he tells you about how he's free of Cazador but "now that he's gone, idk, he pities the other six" and I believe once either when you meet the two spawn in a building during the day, or when they approach you at your camp during the night. There's a line when you talk to him afterwards where he mentions it again. It goes to show that he's indeed capable of empathy and compassion, even after those 200 years, and for him to try and trick them into dying so he can get power, he has to be truely in dispair.

[@sirennightshade4977]

It sounds like he was always a not-good man, actually. If you get into some deep dialogue and read his backstory stuff, he was very much a corrupt official. But beyond that it's up to interpretation, and I like to headcanon that he was initially a hard worker who'd earned his place as magistrate and took pride in that. He still did things like accept bribes and let influential people off the hook in return for favors, but he was never EVIL. Not until Cazador put him in a corner where he had no other recourse except to change to his new environment. I like to imagine that the original Astarion essentially withdrew to protect himself, and the new Astarion is a fake persona and shell designed to keep that original self safe. That's a core reason why he's a charlatan -- to protect himself. But he's been doing it for so long that he totally lost touch with his previous self. And further, I imagine that if you go Spawnstarion and then go to his grave, he's actually, truly laying the original Astarion to rest. Then he sheds the shell Astarion, too, and moves on to become someone totally different from either. It's all headcanon for me, but I love the idea that he comes to realize that he definitely isn't the person he used to be and neither is he the person he wears for everyone else, and eventually comes to accept that he needs to let go of both and become his true self. ♥

[@MizuMing]

Actually if you read his information packet in the booklet, he was never good to begin with. He was a corrupt Noble who had ideas of immortality (for some reason 🤷), and then when he got it he was in over his head. You can Google the image from the book which tells you all of this. He was not a good man to begin with, but he can be led down a moral path.

[@ladyhrist]

@@MizuMing a portion of that was from early access and has since been partially retconned in the final version of his script/backstory--- he wasn't actually working with cazador as a mortal, for instance. (whether larian just decided to scrap it or felt it didn't make sense with the story they wanted to tell, it's hard to say.) that said: even if they had kept his backstory intact, no one deserves to be treated the way he's been treated.

[@MizuMing]

@@ladyhrist They still hard printed it in their CE books, so why send them out at all then if they were just going to retcon a few months later? Makes no sense to do.

[@ladymaria5921]

Wow. I played this game nearly 400 hours, always romanced Astarion and didn't even heard those lines. I wonder how much I missed. This game will be the game of the decade mark my words.

[@ArDeeMee]

The meaner you are to him, the more he will accidentally blurt out his experiences in anger.

[@SpicePrincess1890]

@@ArDeeMee It's interesting because the more emotionally abusive Tav is toward him, the more reactionary he is, but while I always see people talk about his reactions and replies to these dialogs, I never see people talking about the underlying abusive and disrespectful attitude of Tav in those dialogs at the same time. It's like they're drilling these answers out of him... idk it just really makes it hurt more to think about it from that perspective.

[@electroc799]

If you´re romancing him and chose the first opcion (after figthing the spawns), it leads to a point where he will say that he not only wants to Ascend for himself, but for Tav too. To be able to protect them.

[@MaryJay1988]

True! 👍👍👍

[@WobblesandBean]

Ha, fat lot of good that does.

[@chronoxtreme2427]

@@WobblesandBean I think that's the innate tragedy of it. Astarion constantly claims that ascending in the ritual is about getting revenge on Cazador, humiliating him, stealing his life's work, etc. but when you actually get to that moment and pass the perception check, you realize that what he wants from the ritual is safety -- both for him and his lover. He's not ascending solely to get revenge on Cazador, he's ascending because he's terrified of being weak and helpless again. Surely, if he just grabs enough power, he will be safe - forever, for good. But when you egg him on to Ascend, what you're telling him in that moment is "You're right to be afraid. You're right to be constantly scared. You're not good enough as you are. This world is terrifying and it will never stop trying to hurt you, so hurt it back first." Tav is part of that world, so it's not enough for Astarion to Ascend and gain power - he has to be more powerful than them too. "Always dominate - let no one be your equal," as Vellioth says. That's the only way he can be safe now - even from the person he cares for most. In contrast, Spawn Astarion sees the moment you persuade him to abandon the ritual as helping him realize he's enough, just the way he is. He can remain a vampire spawn and still be safe, protected, and cherished. And thus, he remains your partner - and an equal.

[@TheLegendOptimus]

He also has proficiency in deception so take it with a grain of salt.

[@electroc799]

@@chronoxtreme2427 I think, and please I emphasize that it is just my opinion, the two paths romancing him searchs Tav's well-being un some way. In the Spawn path he longs to continue having his beloved by his side, even if he doesn't feel completely worthy. In the Ascended path, He constantly seeks to please Tav, even though he believes he is unstoppable. The two paths have their tragedies and beautiful moments. But it's those ups and downs that for me make it one of the most interesting romances in the entire game.

[@Cristbell76]

I love Neil’s performance on him so hard… my other sad clip I lost my mind was when i got the dialogue in the Shadow Lands he was bloodied and in the perfect setup to make it even more dramatic… when you have the chance to ask about his “siblings” how he speaks about how Cazador enjoyed his screaming best… how Astarion pause trying to not break while speaking of it… my Gods that was just too difficult to not even have an option to console him…. At all… 😢😭❤️‍🩹

[@SkycometAnimeVamp]

Goddamnit Neil! He just made cry. Neil is an amazing actor

[@yakuzajoe]

There's an equally great dialogue when you confess to being a Bhaalspawn and scared of standing up to Bhaal.

[@pikajulie_art]

Yes: kzbin.info/www/bejne/roaoaqtshqiBnZY

[@StealthheartDraws]

4:55 yeah it really is easy to say when you aren’t the one enduring torture

[@rurukitty405]

Oh damn... I've never seen this. My poor boy 😭

[@keepthingsreal]

Oh this HURT omg. I’ve never gotten this dialogue before 😭

[@Kat-xf3cs]

Awesome voice acting.

[@blueberrydesusquad]

Interesting how every spawn you meet basically calls Astarion a self-serving A-hole tho

[@emskalicky8275]

Based on some of the tidbits we get I reckon they were all made to compete against each other (the favourite bedroom, for example), probably to keep morale low. Given Astarion claims he was tortured the most, it wouldn’t surprise me if he was especially resentful & unwilling to get close to any of the others, which I imagine Cazador would have encouraged. Most wounded feral cat kind of vibes.

[@blueberrydesusquad]

Still... maybe it's cuz they're still on team Cazador willing or not... but the dynamic between Petras and Dal definitely seemed friendlier tho imho@@emskalicky8275

[@Kasiarzynka]

I wonder if there's more you can find out about the dynamics he had with them when he was still under Cazador, if you play as origin Astarion. I'd be really interested in finding out more. Also, I mean, we DO see Astarion act like a self serving a-hole. Prime example being his willingness to commit a small genocide (I can't call killing 7 thousand innocent and defenseless in the moment people, whose only crime was being trusting enough for one of the spawn to lead them to Cazador, a different word). There are deeper reasons for it, rooted in his psychology, than simply "yepp, he's evil", but it doesn't change the outcome. So it wouldn't surprise me if he hadn't played entirely fair and square with them, or distanced himself from them and showed a level of resentment. They're all survivors of the same monster, but the monster definitely would've enjoyed turning them against one another, actively or not.

[@emskalicky8275]

@@blueberrydesusquad oh yeah agree, I think same between Aurelia and Leon too. I think his claim of being tortured the most & the year in the tomb might play into why. The others have maybe found/been allowed alliances, but he’s totally lost faith - the trauma response of ‘I resent you for not being as hurt as me’ even if that’s not the reality. Given Cazador’s creepy tactics I wouldn’t put it past him deliberately driving a wedge between Astarion & the others / encouraging Astarion’s isolation & misanthropic tendencies. Plus I reckon throwing each other under the bus to avoid Cazador’s ire would be a common enough survival tactic, maybe Astarion was more likely to do it out of fear. I wish we knew more about how Cazador viewed the other spawn individually, but I imagine the psychological torture would be uniquely tailored to each of them.

[@nathanielrodriguez1873]

All of the spawn were like that. I think that tiefling even murdered another spawn’s daughter just so she could taste her blood

[@Katzykeens]

UGH THAT SHIT HURT WHEN I FIRST HEARD AND IT STILL HURTS LIKE IT'S THE FIRST TIME HEARING IT EVERY TIME AFTER

[@chelseajackman7730]

I actually welled up with tears.

[@ebifuon6776]

If you don't save Astarion in act one Casador has him turned into a zombie. A sad fate for our dear pale elf.....

[@nellialperovich4522]

I wonder why other spawn called him weak and a lickspittle……also it’s weird coming from the spawn who is considered Cazador’s favorite if I’m not mistaken

[@mauve_rainbow]

Astarion was Cazador's favorite spawn to torture, the one Cazador enjoyed hurting the most. The most favored and well-treated spawn was Leon, bc he's the one who brought back the most victims (he did it to protect his daughter, who was living in the Szarr Palace too). Astarion was also one of Cazador's first spawn, so I assume he was already broken and compliant when the others were turned. Astarion was actually defiant and rebellious even at the beginning, but the others didn't see it (but that's more of a theory). What's certain is that Cazador emphasized competition between the spawns, which definitely led them to dislike each other (bc if one of them wins, the others loose). It's also frequent in this kind of toxic environnement to throw the others under the bus if it means you won't get punished. I think the spawns, all of them, would have done anything it it meant not being Cazador's amusement for the night

[@aerynstormcrow]

Astarion haters need to see this…😢

[@ChiakiNanami736]

I didn't need my heart...

[@alejalalita]

and I will help him do it

[@I_urge_to_count]

85

[@MelissaHogwood]

Why are their eyes different from his?

[@Mixcky_Shadow]

What song plays at 4:25-5:00

[@Magnet2006]

It's called "City music 2 unofficial soundtrack" i think

[@blueplague5911]

this is MESSED UP

[@LotusLavender33]

Exist a dialogue that appears if you are AA friend he said that he does not agree with the vampire society that Cazador led and that he wanted to change the rules.🤔 For these things it seems cruel to me not to ascend Astarion. I'm sorry, he's telling you that killing his master isn't going to help him at all. Will he be cruel and bad? Well, it depends on how you look at him, what is clear is that all the masks fall and he shows you his true (vampire) nature. 🖤

[@kairaaitken938]

Ascending Astarion is cruel to all the innocents Cazador had imprisoned by forcing Astarion to kidnap them. Including innocent children who haven't even hit their teenage years yet. They aren't just killed, their souls are sent to Hell as a deal Cazador made with the archdevil Mephistopheles. It is too high a price to pay on a good playthrough. If you did it, you might as well have just roleplayed an evil playthrough because your Tav has done worse than raid the grove Just to be clear there is nothing wrong with an evil playthrough. It's fiction not real life but what I'm trying to say is the act of ascension is so evil and cruel that you can no longer say "on my GOOD playthrough" you would have to say on my good to evil playthrough Spawn Astarion ends up being way happier in the long run anyway. He even thanks you for stopping him from ascending What they want isn't always the same as what they need. Also I'm roleplaying a character who isn't going to sacrifice innocents to make a guy happy. That's just how my Tav in that playthrough is. A different more evil Tav might decide otherwise

[@Bara.Tiddies]

It's not cruel. If deciding to remain a spawn, Astarion literally thanks you for helping him see he doesn't need to ascend to be free, and can finally move on to live his life. Ascending him damns the cycle of abuse to continue, and this is shown through how he acts and how he treats the player character.

[@Asse89ify]

​@@kairaaitken938 exactly if the player wants a happy ending is actually to get know the companion inner feelings, if you get to know Astarion he actually has empathy, if you think his former occupation before becoming a vampire he worked with law and justice(doesnt mean every justirical are fair) but is about knowing what is right and wrong, so hes not born a murder or criminal. The years of torture made him revengeful and scared, and he think taking Cazadors life work will make him invencible and no one will threate him again. He actually only wants to be free, own his body and soul, being his own master. For example I made Shadowheart decide bc it felt right to her character, bc is up to her to live with Shar curse or follow her parents wishes. And I asked Lae'zel to be with her people, bc shes a patriot for her people.

[@Kanikanihia]

You took Neil's words out of context. He didn't say that the mask falls and we see the true Astarion, as if he was like the ascended version all along, but was playing an act. He said the mask falls and we see him AT HIS MOST TERRIBLE. That is the key word, at his most terrible. Ascended is the worst of him, his dark side, the worst, most self serving and power hungry part of himself. So no, it isn't cruel not to ascend him, it is cruel to ascend him and damn 7000 souls to hell. Many of them innocents, people who were taken, kidnapped, many of them children. And on top of that you destroy Astarion too. He's not himself, he's a caricature, a mockery of his former self, all the depth and wisdom and emotional intelligence obliterated, a shallow, pathetic, weak shell of himself in its place. And all for what? To walk in the sun? What sun, when he says he wants to blot out the sun for his spawn and we later find out he hides in that ugly castle just like Cazador, planning to take over the city? How is it worth it when in the Unasceded epilogue we are directly and very bluntly told that he is doing very well, flourishing and is proud and happy with his life and on top of that he wants to start searching for a cure for his condition. There are so so many cures against vampirism in DnD that Ascension is just silly, a cheat code that is literally "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". I have no problem with those who enjoy this evil side of him in a mature and realistic way and Ascend him. It is a valid path and I get the appeal of exploring it, but to say that it is cruel NOT to ascend him, or that Ascarion is actually his true self, is sorry to say, reductive of the entire story and his entire arc.

[@wispisang]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, you can enjoy ascended Astarion, that’s totally cool. But let the man be the evil POS he is in that case. Enjoy his evilness. Don’t try to conjure up reasons why he’s actually a good guy and this is a healthy thing for him. It’s not, the people involved with his story as well as the story itself made this clear. Every turn of the way when Astarion is trying to convince you to let him ascend, at least in my eyes, it all came off as very manipulative, him honeying up his words to get you to join him instead of being real with you. The same Astarion we saw at the beginning of the game before he opened up to you and began to actually let himself love you. I didn’t ascend him simply because I didn’t want to be manipulated and pushed around by him, and I could see the good in him. Most of the statements I chose in that moment were questions asking him if it’s what he really wants because I just felt like deep down he could guide himself out of this power lust, and he did. The part of him you’re siding with in the ascended scenario, sacrificing thousands of souls to continue this vampiric cycle of abuse, is the part of him who has learned over centuries that you need to manipulate and let go of your empathy if you want to survive in this world. All Astarion really wants is to LIVE, and by letting him ascend your basically reassuring him that the only way he can do that is through power and fear. Believing he can do better isn’t being cruel and abusive, it’s showing him there is more to life than power and the abusive family he’s known. He can be better than Cazador ever was because he chose his humanity over power. And he’s really happy with myself when he does, he thanks you for not letting him ascend because he can truly begin to let go of that scared part of him. Of course it isn’t like he’s healed from it all and 100% better, but he can finally start taking steps. There’s a whole romance scene after with him at the grave where he mourns his death, but then is excited to finally start living again. That is NOT a cruel fate to put Astarion through. It’s the most human, and I mean it prevents him from becoming Cazador 2.0. Ascended Astarion and his story I think is a wonderfully written example of how abuse victims continue the cycle of abuse because it’s what they know, they become the very thing they despise thinking there is no way out. Allowing him to go through with that mindset and letting him believe that he needs to be this all-powerful master in order to survive in life IS the cruel option. Honestly this all just feels like a media literacy issue. Again, PLEASE don’t feel ashamed of enjoying his character and stuff, evil characters are fun. But try to accept that this man IS evil, and saying that to not ascend him is cruel just… boggles my mind a little. Sure he may not be Cazador, he may even be better than him still, but that’s a VERY low bar to meet. He still intends to take what he wants and rule over people, just because he has a soft spot for Tav doesn’t mean he isn’t a shitty person. Most evil people aren’t completely bad, they have things they hold onto and good traits. But that doesn’t take their evil away. Generally I just find it sad a lot of you can’t see past this idea that power DOES corrupt and just say “More power means he’s more happy!” Maybe people can be happy without killing thousands of people and planning to enslave who knows how many more? You and your vampire master can rule the world and then do as you wish, and you can choose to be more merciful and you both can truly love each other. It’s a dark but cool romance story. But Astarion, the true vampire, needs to feed. He wants to have spawn and take advantage of all his new abilities. He has a vampires thirst for power, that is what he is as a the vampire ascendant. There’s nothing wrong with playing through the game like that, but to say denying him that is cruel is where you are wrong. I think there are many things you are overlooking to just focus on the positives. In all of this he has sacrificed that old part of him he was clinging onto. The Astarion before ascension. The one who he called weak and pathetic because that’s EXACTLY what Cazador called him. He was internalizing the abuse he had faced. Now that he has ascended, that part of him is dead. There will be no mourning him. He won’t get to finally live free of Cazador. All that’s left is the vampire that was born in the abuse and pain he suffered, and while you can still try and sway his actions towards a less blatantly evil route, the true Astarion, the magistrate who was then killed and suffered centuries of abuse, is dead. He does not get to enjoy a happy ending, because as he said himself before he ascended, he was pathetic and worthless. He let go of him in order to ascend. Ascended Astarion wanted to become more, and now he is. I don’t think that’s a very happy ending, but hey, he’s now one of the most powerful beings in Faerun.