The TRUE VILLAIN of Christmas

[@TheTaleFoundry]

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[@andersnelson]

Thanks for this video! I do agree that Christmas stories can be a bit lacking in conflict, and that attempts to introduce conflict often result in a rather silly character like the Grinch. Now, it's not a bad thing that the Grinch is silly, but his corniness makes him rather useless in a story that's not a comedy. So I'd like to see more Christmas movies and books that have more depth. I think that A Christmas Carol might be a good example of this. If course, Christmas movies about the birth of Jesus are often compelling, if you're a Christian. (Which not everyone is.)

[@Hypercube2017]

6:05 I’d argue that the Grinch is more a foil, a mirror to the world’s “Jacks.” Not reinforcing the value of the holiday, but critiquing the shallow, materialistic celebration of it. Also, this brings a new layer about Jack Skellington being the undead Grinch meme.

[@ezrafaulk3076]

You know, Christmas was *originally* a Germanic pagan holiday called *Jól* which was kinda like Halloween, Christmas, and New Year's Day all wrapped up in one; they even had a custom called "Vassailing", which's when people dressed up in costumes, and blessed their neighbors in exchange for things like food and ail; I honestly think it's *much* more interesting than our modern Christmas.

[@geoffreyrichards6079]

@@andersnelson The thing is, most other average Christmas stories have the Grinch character play the villain role to oppose the heroes who embody the typical holiday cheer and love. But what makes the original Grinch more interesting is that… he IS the protagonist of his own story. And he isn’t foiled by any of the Whos, but a literal change in heart when he realizes that Christmas isn’t strictly materialistic. It’s no secret that the author himself, Dr. Seuss, had crises of faith during his lifetime, and the Grinch is basically a reflection of his own cynicism and pessimism during the holiday season, so the revelation at the end of the story was basically a personal reminder of the underlying value in such ceremonies and celebrations.

[@commanderkruge]

Hi - I have a question! Didn't you, at one point, also have a video about writing good characters that took several Discworld people as an example? I could SWEAR I had seen a video like that featuring this exact robot, but now I can't find it - neither in your videos nor with youtube search... :D

[@geoffreyrichards6079]

The Grinch was apparently intended to be a self-reflection of Seuss’ own loathing of the increasing emphasis on materialism that Christmas was becoming, which is something a lot of certain people feel during the holidays. So while it may be an easy trope for a source of conflict in your average lazy Christmas story, it’s not without a basis in reality. The difference really lays in the intention and execution. I mean, for as monstrous as the Grinch is depicted, he’s ultimately meant to be the character we the audience are supposed to be identifying with. A lot of us grow cynical and pessimistic during periods of our lives and eventually start to find faults in all the things that once brought us joy. But in the end, he’s not defeated by a hero or anything - what ultimately makes his heart increase in size is finding the true value in such celebrations and reminding ourselves of it.

[@nybsgbyte3305]

Yea I've always seen the grinch as the type of people who cry about it all being materialistic then don't even make an effort for the emotional and family connections that also make up the holidays.

Did the narration when the Grinch's heart grows not say something like "Maybe christmas does not come from a store" (referring to the presents)?

[@geoffreyrichards6079]

@ Yeah, because it’s not strictly about the presents or the decorations. It’s the spirit of giving and spreading love and cheer that makes the holiday so special, even when the gifts and decor aren’t there. Same applies to those who don’t want to look festive or cannot afford it.

[@felixdaniels37]

This, it's honestly bizarre how on point TF is about Jack, yet completely misses the forest for the trees when it comes to the Grinch. The Grinch is essentially Charlie Brown, whose questioning of what the holiday season really means has been twisted and warped into cynical nihilism instead of depression.

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

Which is honestly why the Jim Carrey Grinch is an absolute gem.

[@Zaalli02]

The Nightmare before Christmas is now a part of the National Film Registry. I think that’s a cool fact about the movie and you did a great job on describing the movie and how it applies to Christmas.

[@Fanfisthe]

Good

[@TheHalloweenSpirit]

Is a masterpiece of the animation and film history, so this movie (thanks to Henry Selick, Tim Burton and Danny Elfman) deserves all the good things that can get 💜

[@himynameis3664]

Really deserves all the credit it can possibly receive. I didn't understand when I was really young. But re-watching it at about 12, it got a special place for me that made it a classic. Truly a Great

[@OtakuMan05]

In the case of Jack Skellington, you can hardly blame him for his misinterpretation, his own holiday is plagued by materialism. I think what's going on is that in some way, he's grown exhausted with Halloween's materialistic nature and is searching for meaning. He finds Christmas and can feel the deeper meaning in it but can't seem to grasp it as a concept. So he latches on to what he can understand of it, even though he's grown exhausted with his own holiday because of it.

[@aradraugfea6755]

So, while it does not tie into the thesis at all, I think the WHY of Death saving the girl is really interesting. The Hogfather gives gifts. He gives good things to the good kids, bad things to the bad things, lots of things to the rich kids and not so much to the poor kids. Death finds that last bit a little unfair. 'Hogswatch don't care about fair, master' intones his helper, servant, and reference for all things Hogswatch. 'But I do.' The Matchstick girl is the sign that things are going wrong, that he's starting to 'go native' but he's not quite doing it right. He's coming at the whole thing from the wrong angle. The place where his essence as Death hits the essence of the Hogfather isn't both, it's neither. We know from previous Discworld novels that, on some level 'doing the job' makes you the thing. An otherwise mortal boy, if given all the roles and responsibility of death will slowly find himself turning into the same. Death starts turning into the Hogfather, but, because, as the ultimate impartial, FAIR end, Death doesn't pass judgement. He doesn't care if you were good or bad this year. You're dead. The rest is up to you and your gods. But what he does care about is fair. So poor kids get gifts worth their house's yearly income. Department store attendees are magicked their exact wish list, as they asked for it. And the little matchstick girl gets to live. And that's where things get dangerous. Because now DEATH is starting to care about "right" and "Wrong." He's making MORAL judgements. The Discworld is lucky the ruse was only for a single night, because a Death that started to care about things like Naughty or Nice would have major impacts on the world, in a very alarming way.

[@Lumberjack_king]

It was good in the short term but yeah in the log term there would be a lot of dead kids instead of coal

[@robertmiller9735]

That's just a rationalization, though-his excuse to do something he's probably always wanted to. Death focuses on being impartial because he knows what a mess would result if he didn't, yes, but when he has the chance to be compassionate (or show contempt for someone particularly bad), he will. Think of Mr. Tulip.

[@Skittenmeow]

❤

[@josharko111]

​@@Lumberjack_kingI think your statement is kinda funny in an ironic way, considering the story of Krampus and other fairly common stories in which bad kids (and sometimes adults too) meet bad ends, particularly around Christmas.

[@WikiSorcerer]

The Hogfather brings gifts. What better gift can one give a little girl than a future?

[@ShawnRavenfire]

Clark Griswold in "Christmas Vacation" is another example of an anti-grinch. He sets his expectations for the ritual so high, that he drives himself and everyone else insane.

[@muigokublack6487]

"Merry Christmas! Shitter was full!"

[@Vinemaple]

I wish more people could see National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation as a horror movie. Although we must admit that this maddeningly over-the-top enthusiasm is Clark Griswold's only joke, that he brings to every single film he's in.

[@VinnyMartello]

I was thinking the exact same thing!

[@bluethelucario6194]

One of my favorite Anti-Grinches is Clark Griswold of National Lampoon’s Christmas Vacation. It’s probably the most realistic rendition of an Anti-Grinch I’ve seen. Clark is so bound and determined to have ‘The best Christmas ever’. He invites both sets of in-laws (despite the fact that they can’t stand each other), he gets an obviously over-decadent Christmas tree, and when it burns down, literally Chainsaws one of his own to put up, among a whole bunch of other things that i can’t remember, and loses his mind after things both in and out of his control go horribly wrong, and it’s a great part of the comedy, but also a pretty realistic depiction of what you’re talking about.

[@vladyvhv9579]

Don't forget that his Christmas lights cause an emergency drain on the local nuclear power plant.

[@franklyanogre00000]

I was thinking the same thing and just commented it a moment ago.

[@theredknight9314]

@@vladyvhv9579i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of America to which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Play ball

[@dustinwashburn1283]

This movie was my first thought when he explained what an Anti-Grinch is.

[@charlieg3819]

I stopped mid sentence and it just happened to be on “chainsaws one of his own” and I was so confused

[@commonviewer2488]

Hearing someone describe the plot of "Nightmare Before Christmas" will have you doubting it as a real movie

[@Dekolo]

fr. I never actually watched Nigmare before christmas so for a second i thought this plot description is fake and it's just some odd joke.

[@dionettaeon]

I can't help but think about the Donald Duck segment from Mickey's Twice Upon a Christmas. It's kind of simultaneously a grinch and anti-grinch story. The main conflict is the classic scrooge that needs to realize the true meaning of Christmas, "a time to spend with family and friends and the people who love you". But at the same time, the message is ultimately skewed by what's happening _to_ Donald throughout the short. He's just trying to relax and enjoy some peace and quiet to himself with a mug of hot chocolate, but the whole time, the crowded and noisy festivities are constantly overwhelming him, and in particular, being plagued with hearing "We Wish You a Merry Christmas" ceaselessly to the point of destroying an animatronic performance in an insane fit of rage. In the end, he's essentially forced to give in to the music after he's effectively shunned and thrown to the curb; not a very healthy resolution, imo.

[@lukestarkiller1470]

It’s kind of funny when Christmas stories fail to get the right message across and end up giving a pretty negative message that they claim is positive

[@meeb_consumer]

why did a Mickey Mouse Christmas short reflect the pain of being forced to partake in the human experience so well

[@NobodyC13]

Granted, Mickey's Twice Upon a Christmas is just incredibly weak. Weak in story, weak in emotional resonance, weak in theme, and the animation became dated the month after it came out.

[@TheMadcap919]

@@lukestarkiller1470yeah, it essentially gives the message of “if you want a little time of peace and quiet to yourself, you deserve to go through Hell!”. I don’t think I’m missing anything here, so I think you hit the nail on the head perfectly.

[@jaredwonnacott9732]

I always saw the message being that, just because someone isn't into your particular version of the holidays, it doesn't make them a Scrooge. The family was forcing their Christmas on Donald, but Donald knows, and even enjoys Christmas, well enough to conduct a choir in a beloved carol. It wasn't the song he despised, it was the constantly being busy. That segment is an invitation for everyone to simplify their holidays, respect the preferences of others, and to be less judgemental of those that celebrate simply and quietly.

[@someoneawesome8717]

I'm autistic and I ABSOLUTELY understand the Grinch's aversion to all the lights and noise and crowds because it hurts! My personal Christmas ritual involves wrapping myself like a present in my softest coat and scarves (not only do they feel nice but they also help manage the sound levels) then braving the weather to give out warm meals at the local soup kitchen

[@olfactoryninja]

I feel like there's a slight nuance missing from the interpretation of Jack (though it's mostly very good). Jack is certainly enamored with the trappings of Christmas, and yes it is very novel when compared to the drab desaturated nature of Halloweentown. But there's one line in "What's This?" that gets one level deeper into why it's Christmas in particular that calls to him: "Everybody seems so happy". He sees Christmastown as a place where everyone is happy, everyone feels connected to each other, and he wants to feel that. But because he's unfamiliar with Christmas and its traditions, with *why* the residents there celebrate how they do, the only thing he had to latch onto are the superficialities. The songs, the stories, the food, the decorations. His character arc ends not with the defeat of Oogie Boogie, but with the realization that Sally cares enough about him to try and help rescue Santa. That moment gives him the feeling of connection and community and love that was what he was really looking for all along, and the insight that he didn't have to leave Halloweentown or deny his nature to find it. And it's why the film concludes with Jack and Sally embracing on Pumpkin Hill, finding in each other the love and companionship that drove them the whole movie.

[@SobiTheRobot]

Sally really was the only person in Halloweentown who understood what Jack was looking for, and for whom the idea of Christmas actually clicked.

[@TheHalloweenSpirit]

Very good point!

[@raydragerns3657]

*slow clap*

[@timd7971]

I personally don't feel the Grinch is a strawman as much as he can be a exagerated aspect of Holiday burnout the same way the Anti-Grinch is a exagerated form of Holiday materialism and over indulgence.

[@griffinthegreat4873]

Replying to this comment to get it to the top

[@Ahhhhhh-j8j]

Honestly the work of tale foundry is amazing and they don’t get enough praise for what they do.

[@Ahhhhhh-j8j]

Let’s get them to 1m

[@blindedjourneyman]

I do tend to recommend em to people when I can, as I love their work and being the poorest of the poor I can never pay them directly, just wish I could do more.

[@Hypercube2017]

@@blindedjourneymanyou forget that your views do quite a bit by bumping the videos up in the algorithm. Every view counts.

[@disodosid]

As someone who was raised poor and in a culture that took only the key parts of Christmas as the way to treat the whole holiday, this was an interesting video for me. I witnessed an american/appalachian experience of the same holiday and felt entirely out of place and alien to it all. It felt, to put it simply, "too much" to me. The lights, the noise, the crowd, the gifts, the drama; it was all foreign and overwhelming. It gave me a bit of empathy for the Grinch; i wonder if the fuzzy green fella was neurodivergent. Growing up, it was just me, my big brother, and my grandmother. We did our best to make our holiday look like what was on tv; we set up a plastic tree with a single line of lights and a few baubles [mostly hand-made] and if we could we would put a present for each of us under the tree. Often times, as the youngest, my presents to the others would be hand-drawn pictures or hand-made christmas cards. I remember asking my big brother for a drawing of one of the characters he made up and told me stories about, and when i was handed that picture i squealed with joy and gave him a big hug. The main part of our holiday that i hold dear in my memories, though? The dinner; we'd gather around the table together, telling funny stories and making jokes, enjoying what we scrabbled together to eat and enjoying the company of family even more. Gifts & tree were an afterthought, while the dinner shenanigans was the star of the show. Cranberry sauce out of the can is still something i happily think about when "Christmas" comes to mind; i'd eat the whole thing on my own if the other two didn't get their helpings first lmao

[@IceNice238]

Ok here are most christmas movie cliches: 1. Grouchy character who doesn't believe in Christmas or a rich dude who prioritizes something of value to them over "The true meaning of Christmas" 2. Lesson on family or believing in Santa Claus 3. High steaks 4. A character that reflects what their future self will become if they don't change. 5. Little Timmy who works in the coal mines.

[@marcusblacknell-andrews1783]

Poor Jack, the King of Halloween just didn’t understood what he did.

[@somedandy7694]

Love that intro animation! That said...Scrooge doesn't hate Christmas specifically in the book: he dislikes people and loves material gain. He happens to despise Christmas because that's when people expect merriment and generosity.

[@buttercuup02]

This has forever changed the way I view the holiday. Thank you, Tale Foundry!

[@theredknight9314]

🤣

[@Angninjin22]

I just want to say that I love how you described The nightmare before Christmas, anyways I just don't know how to describe your videos but they are wonderful Merry Christams Tale Foundry!

[@RedMooshroom42]

Wouldn't anti Grinch be a person who loves Christmas for the consumerism but then starts to despise the holiday for the family part of it.

[@Badficwriter]

There was an event once on 4chan. The comic book chan group was giving all the other groups lantern ring symbols from the DC superhero Green Lantern. Each color and symbol had a specific emotional activity tied to it. They gave the toy collector chan group the bright blue color of hope for the hope of gifts! But the toy collectors said NO. Gifts? Pff. They would buy them themselves. So they could get ALL the gifts. And the Lantern givers said Oh! You are NOT the blue of hope. You are the Orange of AVARICE, whose litany is "Mine! Mine! Mine!" And the toy collectors were satisfied, because this was exactly right.

[@blindedjourneyman]

you shot me in the heart with this episode, putting into words so eloquently why Im such a cynic towards festivities and yet, for siblings and family. I entertain the ritual. for melting my jaded wall for a little while, thank you.

[@lukestarkiller1470]

I definitely relate to that too, I get more sick and tired of Christmas stuff the older I get, especially the music, but when I celebrate with my family I just give in and let myself enjoy something I normally wouldn’t, because being with the people important to you and just letting go of your cynicism for a while is really pretty nice

[@RYAN_IS_HERE428]

When i was younger i was very much the same as jack skellington but i live in a country where the majority of people believe that Halloween is somehow the devil's birthday so I instead gravitated to Halloween instead of Christmas which is probably why I have such an obsession with horror

[@localvega688]

Welcome to Halloween Town! 🎃

[@WHERE_IS_EURYDICE]

@@localvega688 THIS IS HALLOWEEN THIS IS HALLOWEEN HALLOWEEN HALLOWEEN

[@markpostgate2551]

One of the things I like about this channel is, in contrast to other discussions of patterns in stories that refer to them as "tropes" or "clichés" as if they deserve to be erradicated because they have been done before (when everything has been done before!), this channel enjoys and appreciates them and tries to understand why motifs are repeated and what function they might positively serve.

[@LarvaAsia]

Honestly the work of tale foundry is amazing and they don’t get enough praise for what they do.

[@369destroyer]

So the comic about a skeletn giving s kid a sword Ive been seeing every year for a while now came from.Terry Prachet huh? Man I laugh at that scene every tme and now I have new apprecistion for it.

[@lewisbarclay9113]

It's a fine bit of loophole abuse he uses. He's not Death at that moment. He's the Hogfather. The Hogfather gives gifts...and there's no greater gift than a future.

[@justinjacobs1501]

Yup. It's a gift he as Death has the power to give, but the responsibility not to. But as the Hogfather, he is able to bend the rules in order to turn life into a gift.

[@janedoe885]

As a born-and-raised non-Christian, you are sleeping on the Home Alone movies. 🤭 A few other observations from the outside though: - The feeling I've had with my family has always been a kind of cheering-on-from-the-sidelines one. We have our own stuff we do, and it's different, but we still find joy seeing Christians getting excited about Christmas. My parents used to drive me and my siblings around at night to see how creative people got with their Christmas lights. It was genuinely really beautiful and something we enjoyed. As an adult I suspect most people aren't thinking about that when they set their lights up, but it did spread seasonal joy regardless of faith imo. Might speak to the underlying spirit of Christmas and power of ritual a bit, but I haven't seen narratives touch on that as much that I remember. - My sister is obsessed with Christmas music and Hallmark Christmas movies. She even watches when the movies go up in JULY. I think there's a kind of science to how this stuff works but she has it deciphered better than me lol. Offhand, I've noticed a lot of the movies she watches (besides romantic angle and 'BUT WILL THE CHRISTMAS RESORT TOWN BE BOUGHT OUT BY A MEGACORPORATION WHO WANTS TO REPLACE IT WITH A SHOPPING CENTER') involve adults who have gotten so caught up in the mundanity of day-to-day life that they kind of... forget to slow down and appreciate the moment. To be honest, I've been there. There have been years I put a lot of effort in on the Fourth of July, or Halloween, or even someone's birthday. There have been years I was busy and exhausted and let holidays be mostly normal days. When you put forth the effort to create a positive experience to share with others, it feels magical in a way. And you not only get to experience it in the moment--you create a memory you'll be able to share and revisit for years to come. When I give people I care about gifts, I do it in a similar spirit. It's not about cost but about letting the person know I pay attention to and care about them. I want the person to know I love them anytime they use that gift, and that even if life gets busy they have something they can hold onto as a reminder. So when life inevitably sweeps us all up again, they'll still carry that moment and memory with them. Since life isn't predictable or controllable, holidays don't always go as we envision. But I think there are some potentially really sweet and meaningful stories to be told about people looking for ways to communicate care to their loved ones in ways that will be understood. Holidays are pretty good for that too. I don't know if I've seen much where the narrative question was 'will this gesture make the recipient happy/how will the recipient react' when that's not uncommon in real life.

[@seanmcfadden3712]

My favourite "Not A Christmas Movie" Christmas Movie is actually Gremlins. Among other things, it shows why a pet does not make a good surprise present, even for the holidays. You need to be prepared to look after them for their life, not just until you're bored or they're inconvenient. And don't ignore important aspects of their care, or things can go very bad. That message resonates with me because I am an animal carer, and the number of kittens, puppies, pregnant cats, etc, that get dumped and abandoned shortly after the holidays is, frankly, very disturbing. Especially since they can be a threat to local wildlife, or starve to death without proper care. Having them turn into a horde if reptilian monsters that destroy the town is, frankly, a less depressing result.

[@fist-of-doom487]

I often think about the origin of Christmas. It was a Pagan Holiday celebrated by local pagans (don’t ask me what the original holiday was called, I couldn’t tell you) and the local Christians watched them celebrate this odd Finn looming holiday and wanted to participate. So they did almost the exact same holiday rituals but with Christianity instead. It was almost immediately popular but the Christians Puritans didn’t like this holiday because even with the addition of God into this holiday it still had close ties with Paganism and wanted nothing to do with it. Many attempts were made to destroy Christmas as Christians started calling it but those real life Grinches could stomp out the Holiday Spirit. It’s a fun origin story for the holiday and it sounds almost like something from a classic Christmas Story.

[@valutaatoaofunknownelement197]

​@@fist-of-doom487Putting in some additional Christian (Catholic specifically) perspective in, Christmas's significance besides time spent with family, is that it marks the birth of Jesus Christ, hence the "Christ" in the holiday. And historically, this was done to match that original pagan holiday by the Church itself, adapting it into Catholicism that in such a way, it eventually became its own thing.

[@telotawa]

i was thinking the anti-grinch would be "hey, how come santa gives the best gifts to the rich kids, while some are hungry?"

[@Silverflame-1]

Love this exploration of the holiday. Another thing is that, it's so easy for companies and corporations to take advantage of anti-Grinches, too. Just like everything in the capitalistic hellscape of our world, companies, stores, etc, love Christmas because it's one of the best times of the year for them to wring money out of people. "BUY BUY BUY BUY. BUY OUR SUPER COOL GIFTS, BUY OUR DECORATIONS, LOOK AT THIS WE'RE HAVING A SALE! (Give me your money give me your money give me your money.)" And there's nothing wrong with buying gifts and decorations, or booking trips to visit family, not at all. But anti-Grinches, obsessed with the appearance of the holiday, are especially susceptible to the companies who want to coerce them out of more and more money. If you're obsessed with the ritual of giving presents for its own sake, it's much easier for Walmart to sell you a hundred extra little baubles. It's like, one of the other stock plots that Christmas movies have: "Christmas has become too materialistic and corporate, and we need a lesson about how ~family is more important.~" It's just that anti-Grinches help perpetuate the materialistic side of that conflict.

[@DropsOfMars]

Jim Carrey 's Grinch in particular has a strange aspect that I don't think people give much thought. It's only really when the Whos in Whoville begin singing and celebrating even without all their gifts that he changes. Up until then the whole place is full of people being inconsiderate, competitive to a degree that hurts any possible good cheer and love to one another, and materialistic greed. I always have posited that The Grinch is low-key linked to or IS the spirit of christmas, and as people stray further and further from the real meaning of the holiday he gets meaner and meaner until he finally decides to do something about it. He just thinks he hates the holiday, because that's how he's come to understand it. But he has literal physiological changes when the Whos rediscover what's important, and a lifetime of hating Christmas just melts away in an instant. He FEELS how people are celebrating the holiday. He's definitely more than just a Green furry Grinch living on a mountain.

[@a.j.outlaster1222]

4:46 Bro is such a good storyteller, When he said this and I thought I couldn't see similarities, He IMMEDIATELY explained, AS IF I'D ASKED HIM, WITHOUT MISSING A BEAT! I love your videos, Man!

[@luxury_nightmare]

I’m not sure if this is an anti grinch story, but is has some of the same messages. My favorite story of this kind is the story of Black Friday by starkid. It’s the story of an eldritch horror who cursed a line of markable plushies to drive people insane. The main character, Tom Houston, wants one for his son Tim. Tim’s mom had died in a car crash so tom is trying his hardest to make up for that, believing anything that Tim could want is nothing compared to what he lost. But here’s the thing, all tim wants is to spend time with his dad, he never wanted the doll in the first place. Tom is neglecting what his son actually wants for more materialistic needs.

[@BionicScorp]

Every time I see that intro I have to bring the video back to normal speed, great intro and great video

[@FlameBinder55]

If I had a nickle for every time a skeleton played the role of Santa but does it differently, I would have 2 nickles. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.

[@themoldysausage]

Releases a video four days before Christmas about the grinch and Hogfather. "This is video is not about Christmas" It might be a little about Christmas, Talebot

[@josharko111]

It's interesting that Jack is positioned as having complete understanding of one holiday and absolutely none of the other. While their aesthetics are quite different, there is a similar level of misunderstanding that is caused by the over-corporatizing of each holiday. Christmas isn't all about gifts and trees, it's about generosity and community, and likewise, Halloween isn't about candy and costumes, it's about simply being silly and having a good time in ways that often break some taboos that are due further analysis. Back to my point about Jack, as good as the Nightmare Before Christmas is, I think it falls into the same trap with Halloween that Jack does with Christmas: assuming the holiday is only about its outward presentation. If the creators of Nightmare Before Christmas actually understood Halloween, Jack probably would know better than to assume that Christmas is just aesthetic.

[@Mikescool444]

That might have been the lesson there: Jack was the pumpkin king, the man at the head of Halloween, so there was probably little doubt in his mind about his own duties. Like how he saw Christmas as only a superficial and aesthetic holiday, he likely grew bored of the same-old spooks of Halloween, not truly understanding why everyone else was always so excited for it.

[@bethmarriott9292]

Just finished my annual reread of the Hogfather and it's the best Christmas story out there really ❤️

[@dragonturtle2703]

I can see Grinches. Though, Grinches probably hate any sort of calibrations in general. Or maybe someone who would be fine if Christmas was one day, but when the Christmas music starts before Thanksgiving, they get sick of it far too quickly. And there are definitely people who would destroy something just berceuse they personally don't like it. Not even necessarily dislike it, just not like it.

[@Antasma1]

I guess you could say Buddy the elf is an anti-Grinch but portrayed positively. He's still a manchild in the end but him and people around him embrace it

[@exypnosaurus5079]

National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation I would say is one of the few cases of "Jacks" in a Christmas movie. Griswold aims to bring his family together to have a traditional Christmas as he sees it. The difference is that it is played for more laughs than what Nightmare Before Christmas was made to accomplish.

[@Noone-d6u]

One of my favorites in recent years is 8-bit Christmas

[@deannal.newton9772]

In the book and the old cartoon of How the Grinch Stole Christmas, I thought it was because he hated the noise that the Whos from Whoville would make. It's why he lives so far away from Whoville to begin with since he hated the noise so much during Christmas, but the actual meaning behind How the Grinch Stole Christmas was anticonsumerism during the holidays since even without all the stuff the Grinch thought made Christmas, Christmas, the Whos still celebrate it because they were all together: which is the true meaning of Christmas in the end. I can say that the movie Jingle Jangle on Netflix is a surprisingly joyous movie in spite of the story as a whole which had a sad beginning, a sadder middle, a happy end, and a surprising twist. The holiday, Christmas, was just used as a backdrop for the movie as a whole as oppose to a main plot of a typical Christmas movie.

[@Amadeus451]

Don't forget that so many cultures have key holidays around the beginning of winter is that it used to be all your neighbors might not still be around come the next Spring. Be sure to check in with people you might not have heard from or talked to recently-- it's literally one of the most human things you can do.

[@theknightwithabadpictotall7639]

Your sponsor transitions are so well done that I feel bad for skipping them

[@jr9529]

I'd say im not opposed to Christmas. Just the idea of confirmity. I also think there just isnt enough of halloween. Could just be me feeling like i missed it

[@garrethb6261]

I would say Halloween, much like Christmas, is a very Western Centric holiday. Not every country has Halloween, for many reasons.

[@jr9529]

@@garrethb6261 I guess that does explain why it's so short lol. Again, could just be me feeling like I missed it.

[@EAST.77309]

Another great story telling from tale foundry.

[@Mints_with_insomnia]

So happy I saw you posted this on nebula in your community post but i don't have the money for nebula so im grateful you posted it here 😊 and also nightmare before Christmas is one of my favorite movies

[@HuntShowdownLab]

I’m only a few minutes in, and this one’s fantastic. Thanks for you thoughtful and compelling content!

[@Ouroborus4765]

Merry Christmas to all who celebrate and happy holidays to those who don't ☺️

[@ZzzMeep]

Omg! I remember someone made a comic about a Santa skeleton giving a little girl a sword and saying the same things! That was based on Terry Pratchett?! That's so cool!

[@greenhydra10]

Now I know how to explain it to someone if they ask why I don't like Christmas movies.

[@MissSirenita]

I think finding an excuse to give and give and give and give is the reason I love Christmas and birthdays and what not. It’s my love language. I love giving, and I don’t care too much about receiving but it is nice too I suppose. However, I also love how warm the holidays are and the cheer that comes with celebration.

[@Stormbringer178]

discovered your channel since many months and have become as soon as possible a subscriber. i am just in love with the way you do things, i like how you always make my own teenage love Sir Terry Pratchett pop up, i love how you approach storytelling and how you speak about storytelling, how you help us all see meaning in the stories we can enjoy, and - by thinking - grow a little bit. and this time has been just another one of those times. this has become one of my most sought out appointments of the week, this channel right here, your content right here. when i hear your music, when i appreciate being lulled by your voice, i feel safe and a bit happier. thank you.

[@concernednerd5706]

Admittedly I do love the Christmas specials in Doctor Who. Sure it's like any other episode where the Doctor saves the day. But by the end, the people around the Doctor want to do something nice for the Doctor, to give gratitude or to invite them out of the cold. I think those episodes taught me that the reason why we have Christmas and other holidays is because it is important to be with friends and family, with the people we love, especially in the darkest and coldest time.

[@1fishmob]

If you listen to what the Grinch says about Christmas, it's pretty clear he hates the materialism, gluttony and capitalism that goes on during the holiday. So his hatred comes from a misunderstanding of what the celebration of Christmas is.

[@Sany_Tarn]

And here I was just yesterday. Speaking with passion on how I don't like New Year (I'm russian, so Christmas starts in January), and even calling myself a Grinch. It's noisy, it's chaotic, I don't give presents because I have no personal money (well, I'm about to have them, but it is already late). But I enjoy cooking something new. It is a ritual of sorts to cook something new, foreign or plainly unusual (no olivié on my watch!). This, and the feast has some meaning to me. Having fun with my mom and maybe other relatives. Everything else seems to be tinsels. Anyway, I'm thinking a lot about it and now? I see your video about the season and go on a mind-melty rant about my meaning for New Year.

[@meganharding5100]

Honestly, I feel like even if it's unintentionally. The underlying message is they're so obsessed with the materialism like all of the shallow materialism, stuff of personals that they forget about the main important thing, which is spending time with people and just enjoying the season.

[@byohazrd13]

I dated an anti-grinch that once hit me on Christmas Eve because her rich aunt & uncle didn’t want to do a gift exchange at her grandparents house that year, but everyone else was going to exchange gifts after they left. I told her we were done, and she locked herself in the bathroom and shaved skin off her arm.

[@rmb6037]

I'm sorry, what?

[@theredknight9314]

0_0

[@Badficwriter]

I'm confused what the breakup had to do with the gift giving.

[@byohazrd13]

@@Badficwriter she was so obsessed with the thought of not getting a gift from her affluent relatives that she got physically violent and self harmed, which ended up actually ruining Christmas

[@tyleriglar-mobley5763]

My favorite part was when you compared Jack to all the people IRL who ruin Christmas by taking it too literally.

[@Dendrocnide]

I love both Terry Pratchett and his version of Death so much ♥️

[@MafiaCow01]

I greatly appreciate the way you depicted Death with his correct eye colour

[@benjaminjeter8105]

Bruh I'm crying because of how well you enterpret the world through literature in such a way that you can talk enterpretively about the subject matter without ever striking the wrong tone. I will always be amazed by that ability and this video proves to me that you have a very good grasp on reality and are a mad genius in your dialect. Thank for soothing my mind and ears man, honest. I would not be who I am now without listening to people like YOU for as long as I have. FOR REAL❤

[@sarahherbison5419]

Retail workers tend to be grinches lol

[@havinfunfallin9458]

I get called a grinch because even though I like the season and holiday but unfortunately I have lost alot of people around Christmas so it’s hard for me to get through

[@ИгорьМерзляков-р7д]

"But there's another interesting example..." Me: *feeling increasing in Terry's presense in the video* Hogfather? Hogfather!!!

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

8:30 Now all we need is Sans the Skeleton pretending to be Santa Claus. It'd be great.

[@noahrice3362]

Wow... this one was really deep. Honestly I think it really makes the holiday hit different for me now, and it's an interesting thought. Still can't believe I haven't seen Nightmare Before Christmas, but I'm definitely gonna be thinking about this for a while. Yet another great video, glad to have something neat like this to think about. This all said, Merry Christmas 🎄

[@Badficwriter]

Christmas is just the latest festival of Midwinter. The oldest known observation would have been the builders of Stonehenge, which aligns with the sun on solstices. Because Midwinter is the time of the Winter Solstice. Happy Yule!

[@ZEK-ROM]

Wait, jack learned something about the true meaning of Christmas? I watched his movie a billion times and NEVER felt like he learned such a thing at all. If anything he just got a new appreciation for what he does after trying something new and different.

[@kaylaturnis9486]

Merry Christmas 2023!!! 🎄🎅☃️❄❤💚

[@PuffPuffPomf]

This is my first time watching this person and honestly the visuals are so good, and this person’s voice is so calming! The animated intro was gorgeous had my heart the second I saw it!

[@maxschechter4156]

Grinch in the titlecard: STUPID SKELETON! YOU MAKE ME LOOK BAD!

[@AC-ni4gt]

Krampus. Something that is extremely interesting. Basically: he's the one who gives the bad to the naughty children while Santa does the good ones.

[@mosesknerl6681]

My mom and I were discussing something along this line today. specifically, Kierkegaard believed that everyone inherintely has Knowledge of God (in this this we may place morals, or ethics) and the more you try to empirically justify or find reason for it in the world the more you tend to doubt this Knowledge of God. So if it makes sense to kind of compare these two things; take the very popular (or I hope it is) story of the ww1 Christmas. They didn't discuss on whether or not to have a Christmas party or not, they just did it. When humans tend to think too much about the world they end up being selfish about what they can get from it, instead of being like a child and simply knowing the ethical and innocent life that we should all seek to live. God bless, Merry Christmas, and thank you for all the outstanding videos so far!

[@iara0]

Thank you for using the live action Grinch. It is underappreciated.

[@racionador]

when i was little was kinda of a grinch because every year my entire family acted like Jacks forcing us to do all those annoying Christmas rituals. i remenber starving for some food but it was forbidden to eat anything before midnight, i remenber be forced to spend hours listening to prays , we as kids could not even simple play games or distract ourselves.

[@lukestarkiller1470]

Sometimes I think to myself that if I have kids I’m not going to do a lot of more over the top traditions, but I’ve recently started to realize just how important traditions can be to people. I’m not religious but I see how happy religion can make people when they truly believe it, and I’m glad they have something like that in their lives, so while I may not agree with the point of some traditions I’ll probably still follow a lot of them with my own kids just so they can have those special and important moments in their lives

[@projectarduino2295]

People not understanding the rituals of Christmas burnt me out and I can’t really enjoy it any more. What you say about each layer being important is very true from my experience.

[@popoya2297]

So that one about Death gifting a little girl a sword wasn't just a silly internet comic, it was from an actual book? I gotta read that! By the way, speaking of "anti-Grinch" characters and situations I'm reminded about this almost unknown italian movie called "Benvenuti in casa Gori" (aka "Welcome to the Gori house"), to which I'm also particularly attached because it is set in the small tuscan town where i live. It's about a disfunctional family (the titular Gori family: the wheelchair-ridden great-grandpa, his two daughters with their husbands, and their respective children and granddaughter), meeting up for a Christmas Lunch which, try as they might, ends up in a disaster as they start fighting for every little thing, every time trying to bring back peace by saying "Come on! It's Christmas! If we don't love each other on Christmas, then when?", which is exactly what made me think of it: this absurd need of having a perfect Christmas despite all of the underlying family issues that get ignored all year just to explode at the Christmas table. The movie is a tragicomedy, as although the disfunctionality of the family is played for jokes (eg. having done drugs with his friends the night before, the grandson is stoned during most of the interactions, some of which we see through his stupefied lens), it still lets the tragedy of such a tense family situation transpire in every interaction. It's pretty old (came out in 1990), it's not a masterpiece and it definitely wasn't a blockbuster, which is why I'm pretty sure that it was never brought out of Italy for an international audience, so even in the remote case I piqued your interest I don't know how or where you could watch it, but if you manage to find it somewhere in some forsaken corner of the internet with english subs I suggest you give it a watch.

[@ponyote]

Less about the true meaning and more about what they truly mean. Beautifully said, thank you.

[@scottskene8387]

I saw this and knew immediately Hogfather would be part of it 😄🎅💀

[@calladricosplays]

Omg i love how you drew jack! Good job taleoids!

[@lordxx239]

I really like the terry pratchett hogfather movie. With the idea of human superstitious beliefs being necessary to be human. Feel like I enjoy it more as an adult then I did as a kid

[@micman4713]

Was honestly expecting Christmas past/present/future video but this is just as good

[@roohanchristopher3225]

i love your message at the end ( 14:55 )

[@attackofthecopyrightbots]

im always surprised at how little actual good christmas stories/movies there are.

[@Randerson2409]

As someone who is a bit of a Grinch, I also recognise that it's just my own feelings for the season, and I have no desire to rip that actual joy from others

[@dissonanceparadiddle]

Jack is like the contrapositive to the Grinch

[@directorans]

I used to find the Grinch too creepy to watch!

[@eliplayz22]

Same, but it was rlly only when I was a little kid and because Im autistic

[@Mr._Scriptor]

Which one?

[@directorans]

@@Mr._Scriptor Jim Carrey

[@Mr._Scriptor]

@@directorans yeah, that defiantly will give you nightmares.

[@directorans]

@@tatuvarvemaa5314 for me it was probably the costume and make up. I also hated puppets

[@pa8861]

this is best that any chrismas special

[@Fluffypinkdragon1984]

I just realized Jack skeleton is like a weaboo, but for Christmas

[@tankizard]

So... I liked the old jingle/ink stamp intro, but holy poop sickles, I love the newer animated intro

[@MrGabeanator]

Tim Burton has always said that the nightmare before Christmas is like the grinch in reverse about this character who finds Christmas and loves it and then decides to try and do it himself in his own way

[@moshonn9318]

In my opionion, DEATH saving the Little Match Girl was his way of embracing the spirit of the Holiday, and his temporary role as Hogfather. The Hogfather is a giver of gifts, and by saving the girl, DEATH gave her the greatest gift of all: A future

[@magiofthoth]

I love that this year's holidays seem to have the undertones of rituals means something if you want them to. That though they may seem redundant or bad, the meaning you ascribe to it, is the meaning it has. And the more people that mean it the way you want it to, the more the "ritual" works

[@migueeeelet]

I like how you put it, it's giving me this idea of you only having to follow the rituals you want, the ones you like, as what matters is what you want to make out of them, not what they themselves are. Maybe you don't want to hang stockings and mistletoe, but instead something else, that has more meaning, and you can share with your loved ones.

[@fist-of-doom487]

Christmas was a Pagan holiday local Christians enjoyed and wanted to participate in but decided to give it a more Christian spin just for the sake of their own religion and is the reason the holiday even has its name. Interestingly Quakers and Puritans were deeply against the very concept of celebrating Christmas as a Christian because it gets very close to paganism. Unfortunately (for the puritans) the Christians that liked the holiday ignored the objections and complaining and enjoyed it for what it was. Honestly it’s almost a textbook Christmas story for the origin of Christmas

[@magiofthoth]

@@fist-of-doom487 you're preaching to the choir on that one. I'm a reconstructionist pagan

[@formlessone8246]

Watching the part about the claimed importance of ritual and the relationship it has with Hogfather, I recalled a story a pastor liked to repeat every Thanksgiving about a family who always cut the end of the turkey's legs off as a tradition. An outsider to the family asked why they wasted this part of the turkey, and no one could recall until they asked the great grandmother, at which point everyone was shocked to learn that the only reason she cooked the turkey that way was that her old oven was too small. The point he was always trying to make was that some traditions seem pointless because their original purpose has been forgotten, and their function lost. The point of the interaction between Death and the little matchstick girl isn't to show Death doesn't get the spirit of the tradition, but to show that people have begun making excuses for a tradition that really isn't consistent with the spirit of the holiday. That, and to criticize Hans Christian Anderson's original story for implying that death is something good for theological reasons no one else agrees with.

[@ezracohen6020]

The chanukiah at 10:57 makes me happy

[@garyoak9649]

Bro your into animation makes my brain smile

[@Man-qf1lw]

In defense of the grinch not everything needs to be a critisism of something or have a meaning beyond its story. Somethings are nice as just being short cute little stories that have nothing else to them

[@jl9088]

The attempt to change the world for the better is one of the great values of humanity. Thank you for sharing this with us, also for those who might read my comment. Doing good does not mean comment on wiered things or to encourage others no matter what, it's to attempt to be helpful for others in a way where no one would be harmed. We need to remember that(Though I have some struggles my self, we must attempt todo what is best for everyone in most situations.)

[@23ADJ93]

The hogfather is one of my wife and mine’s Christmas tradition.