The Truly Gruesome Case of The Hi-Fi Murders

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[@TheCasualCriminalist]

Go to curiositystream.thld.co/criminalist_0322 and use code CRIMINALIST to save 25% off today, that’s only $14.99 a year. Thanks to Curiosity Stream for sponsoring today’s video.

[@banderson716]

YOU HAVE GONE OFF THE RAILS!! You are sick for producing this crap! The fact that you released this is disgusting!

[@splifstar85]

Why are you surprised at how horrific and insanely stupid (chosen method) and pointless those murders were - that’s what US military does (and that’s what US military personal are trained to do.. pointlessly kill and torcher (in secret war prisons) on mass).. I mean since the 70s to this date they have killed somewhere over a DOZEN OF MILLION OF CIVILIANS around the world thousands of miles away from their borders.. Just to rob those countries and instill US dominance on the region 🤷‍♂️

[@Maven0666]

@@banderson716 He is just reporting what happened. He didn’t do the crime.

[@21_f_aus]

@@banderson716 if he's sick for creating this content then what does that make us who watch or listen to it? Not like he's committing these crimes, if it wasn't for channels such as this one I wouldn't know of most of these crimes even happening, like most of us...

[@FilthTrackz]

Please do a video on the murder of Daniel Morcombe. The Aussie feds created a whole fictional underworld to get the killer to confess. Some of the best policework of all time

[@jthompson1327]

As a black guy, if my brother or father committed these crimes I would want them to get the death penalties because they would be monsters

[@Tsumami__]

If that was your father or brother, your identity would have been changed and hidden multiple times to avoid Utah Mormons burning crosses on your lawn or trying to commit extrajudicial killings against you and your entire family. You need to educate yourself about the history of the prison system, systemic racism within our judicial system, the death penalty and how it’s historically been used predominantly against men of color exclusively, and the history of Utah. Do not be the pick me POC out of sheer ignorance of the subject matter.

[@danihutch]

I really like how this episode was written. I like that the race issues weren't revealed in the beginning. I, like, Simon assumed these criminals were white. Also I agree that the punishment was justified, the murders were unnecessarily brutal.

[@FUnzzies1]

Bringing up race was a meaningless race bait.

[@SteRDLK]

@@FUnzzies1 Not really when it was a significant part of the case!

[@FUnzzies1]

@@SteRDLK it really wasn't.

[@SteRDLK]

@@FUnzzies1 Hmm. NAACP or Scatoogle. It's a tough choice!

[@FUnzzies1]

@@SteRDLK you mean a racist organization...... I won't choose racism.

[@nobodyfamousX]

For the rape is where this case really took a turn. Like the murders were horrible, but I see the point where they thought they would be quickly poisoning their victims, not necessarily disfiguring and torturing them. But then he rapes her before finishing her off. That is beyond merely intent for murder. That is just sadistic.

[@user-fn8bq7ef7t]

They had guns and they tried to take a man out with a ballpoint pen to the ear. I truly believe the robbery was an excuse these guys went in to hurt and terrorize people.

[@swampfaye]

And her being 18, a Mormon, and engaged, in the church in the 70's in Utah, she was probably a virgin.

[@dirksellsted6929]

Rule 77: don't cover up your crime with an even worse crime

[@miketobias1821]

That's a great rule.

[@notajetplane]

And then cover that one up with an even greater crime.

[@Gargoyle_Guy]

crimeception

[@bradharrah3339]

Don't lye to cover it up either.

[@fritzidler9871]

Yes. Like poisoning headache remedies in supermarkets to cover up poisoning a spouse? They caught someone doing that. She thought since they never caught the Tylenol poisoner, they would not catch her. Nope and nope. Though there is a variation on that, isn't there? Setting the crime scene on fire. Which legally, is a lesser crime. But does seem to be used quite a lot.

[@runawaydp]

My initial reaction was that a person can both experience racism during a trial and also be deserving of the death penalty. Obviously it's unacceptable to base any proceedings off of false testimony or a racial narrative. But, if someone has committed a crime worthy of the death penalty a mean, crude, racist note passed to a juror shouldn't diminish the atrocity of the alleged acts.

[@jordinagel1184]

Very true. The most cruel man on Earth could be subjected to treatment that is objectively racist, but it won’t make him any less of an a**hole

[@grodon909]

I think it's difficult. The criteria for death penalty is high and the evidence needs to be proveb beyond a shadow of a doubt for a reasonable person. I could conceivably think that a racist person could overlook any lingering doubt much more easily, and as such there may be cases in which, due to racism or prejudice, a person is convicted when they would not have been if they were majority/white. That said, before I heard that they were black, I was still thinking the death penalty would be reasonable, at least for the drain cleaner guy. My main hangup being that he may not have intended to torture (he was probably just an idiot), but he still intended to kill them anyway.

[@regan3873]

Yes but just to play devil’s advocate the jurors are the ones determining whether it’s worth the death penalty.

[@cecelia1350]

Well said. I also feel that the fact the juror turned the note in rather than throwing it away and saying nothing, indicates they knew a note like that was wrong.

[@PKirkham1]

I was all for the death penalty when I thought they were white, I’ve no interest changing my mind just because they weren’t

[@rosagilburt4688]

As a South African having seen horrible crimes performed by people from various ethnicities, the punishment should fit the crime. The colour of a persons skin should never ever influence the penalty.

[@Quackattack24]

My grandma was a juror on this case! She doesn’t like to talk about it because of how awful the brutality was and the testimony of the surviving victim.

[@birdielein9636]

Oh wow! I bet that messed her up!

[@Guy-cb1oh]

I work down the street from where this took place. Its now the location of a Five Guys Burger joint.

[@NevadaLamb]

I had a tough time hearing the facts. I can’t imagine being in the courtroom and seeing pictures and greater detail of their trauma. Wow. 😬

[@Elizabetha2514]

@@NevadaLamb awful

[@settame1]

@@Guy-cb1ohthis changes my mind about 5 Guys. Always hate going someplace and then finding out there was a serious murder there. Stopped at a gas station once only to see a memorial to 3 people who were brutally murdered by an insane truck driver. Even went to the bathroom where one of the victims was killed.

[@ginger_snapped_]

I like that Simon's negativity toward a grocery store job stems from no one asking him about the milk

[@dr.davidbaker86]

Top comment of the century. Lol.

[@emmettbattle5728]

underrated

[@zenmeister451]

As a Child, I accidentally swallowed Lye. I ended up in the hospital for months and months. It screwed my entire life up. In this case, every single one of those creeps deserved the death penalty!

[@NAGA_99]

Can you please describe your experience / damage / treatment ?

[@0_dearghealach_083]

I hope you're alright now. Lye is seriously dangerous.

[@blowitoutyourcunt7675]

Got bleach on my eyes as a kid and my uncle waterboarded "gently" cuz he was terrified I'd be blind! Rinsed in time apparently!

[@thehangmansdaughter1120]

Having assumed initially that the criminals were white, I believed the death sentence was deserved 8 times over. Literally 8 times. The same standard must be applied to all if it is to be fair. No-one should get a pass for this level of depravity.

[@Lipi19821]

yea,justice is blind...so color of skin has nothing to do with,serverity of the crime and punishment

[@guyquanstrom6205]

Hearing racism and the fact theses 2 organisations tried to defend these sadistic murderers made me lose a lil bit more faith in humanity, I also assumed they were white and wholly agreed on the death penalty, the revelation that all of them were black changes nothing, the statistics of how few blacks were in Utah at the time..... 2% Well that's a bit, erm... Yeah bit of a small pool for so many criminals to come from isn't it? In a Mormon community, I mean fk sake man is stereotyping just common sense?

[@thehangmansdaughter1120]

@@Lipi19821 Black, white, pink with yellow spots, makes no difference. Wrong is wrong.

[@paulburgess283]

Yep, same here.

[@Bluesit32]

Systemic racism is real but it had NOTHING to do with this one. Pretty sure it had something to do with making people drink DRAIN CLEANER. If they had simply shot the the victims, I would say life in prison for it.

[@ceooflovingthehomies9294]

I did not know they were black and I was totally on board with death penalty. Learning their race has not changed my opinion. #equality

[@toxicginger9936]

Same!

[@AvoidTheCadaver]

Me too.

[@KingofAwesomness14]

same! and I'm black. Egalitarianism for life!

[@hunterzolomon1303]

I agree with u, my issues stem with anything tha happened after the trial/conviction. As long as white criminals that commit similar atrocities atmre treated the same, i dont give a damn

[@kennylarsen5241]

Little disappointed in Simon for questioning himself when he found that out

[@HlalefangGwate]

I'm black and I'd have administered the needle myself... while systemic racism is definitely an issue, this was not about race, it's about the sheer inhumanity.

[@galenspikesmusic]

systemic

[@HlalefangGwate]

@@galenspikesmusic thanks bro, didn't know that actually. Have made the edit accordingly, appreciate you.

[@72tadrian65]

Totally agree! This brutality needs a severe response.

[@Tsumami__]

You need to learn a little more about the US justice system and the history of Mormonism in Utah lol.

[@Tsumami__]

@@HlalefangGwateyou made a minor edit without actually educating yourself about the reality of what systemic racism within the US judicial system actually means.

[@goldspartan6594]

Every single person involved in that robbery knew exactly how it was going to end. Every individual knew about the firearms and the drain cleaner. As demonstrated by the anonymous informant, knowledge of drain cleaner to be used as a murder weapon was out in the open. In my opinion, every single one of them should have been served capital punishment. They all knew and willingly proceeded with a plan that would always terminate in death. They could have waited until after-hours (and because it’s a religious community in the 70’s: I’m guessing…) or Sunday, when no one would have been there. They all made the conscious and deliberate decision to end a life with sound mind and not under duress. That’s my opinion even without knowing the gruesome hideousness of the plan in action. You cannot live in a civil society while allowing monsters like that to roam free.

[@Michael-zf1ko]

That's a good point actually. They all made the decision to commit the robbery during business hours. That's being pretty complicit. They are fools if they thought it was just going to be a robbery.

[@jeffzimmerman8141]

@@Michael-zf1ko Agreed. Stupidity or feigned naivety is not a defence.

[@foreverslowly]

👏👏👏👏👏

[@bobbysalkeld2634]

I'm not even 8 minutes in....drain cleaner as a murder weapon?! Wtf....

[@deboralee1623]

i'm only at 17:50 in the video, and haven't heard anything about drain cleaner yet, but since this program's title contains the word "gruesome", i think i'm gonna find about the cleaner soon.

[@jayjablunov4697]

Re: your thoughts about when thinking about/planning a crime becomes a crime. I am a former US Army Military Police Officer so I can best speak to the U.S. Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). In the UCMJ the crime of Conspiracy requires two elements: 1. That the person agreed to enter into a conspiracy with another person or persons to commit a crime and 2. An overt act has been made to effect the conspiracy. Note that the over act does not have to be a criminal act in and of itself. For example, if Person A and Person B agree to kidnap somebody and part of the plan is for Person B to get some duct tape to bind the victim, the crime of conspiracy begins when Person B goes to the store to buy the duct tape (i.e. put the plan into effect) even though going to the store and buying tape is not, in and of itself, a criminal act.

[@0310jof]

I was with you giving them both the death penalty before AND after you identified them as black. Evil is evil.

[@DeathByBlonde1]

My mother in law worked at the Hi Fi shop in her teens for this family and this was her day off. This whole incident still haunts her to this day.

[@Elizabetha2514]

Was she the one who called sick so Sherry was asked to work? If so, my friend knows her from college

[@ComedorDelrico]

Oh my goodness, that must be difficult to deal with, mentally. But I'm glad your mom is with us. ❤

[@latoyathomas6544]

Simon, it's a-ok to talk about the Death Penalty. It's a tremendously complicated issue! I find myself sharing your views on it, especially when you said that in cases where it's clear, no ambiguity, I am definitely for it. But, the cases where it's NOT, that's where the big, thorny nature of it comes back into play. And like you, I listened to this whole thing thinking the perpetrators were white men... until it was revealed later that they weren't & I too was gung-ho for putting them to death! And I am both Black & a resident of a state where we have the Death Penalty on the books. Finding out their race, didn't change the heinous nature of the acts committed. What they did to the victims is what earned them the punishment they received! These atrocities were horrific!

[@theresalaux5655]

I so agree with you. It doesnt matter what color, but it does matter what they did. Hokie Smokes it was awful 😖

[@Adrian-zd4cs]

I agree, I think more people need to discuss the death penalty. I do not have full trust in our justice system and KNOW innocent people have been executed but jesus h, some of these crimes - like this case, strap em in.

[@bivery7060]

Well said LaToya. I feel the same as you. For some reason, I figured out that the perpetrators were black prior to the big reveal. I'm not sure if it was because of the Magnum Force movie clip, or the fact that their pictures were conspicuously missing during the narrative of their despicable acts. The punishment they received was definitely deserved, regardless of their race. Strange that the police never found out who the other three thieves were.

[@DaimonWalker]

I'm reminded of the guy that stood over a UK police office having decapitated the officer. They invited their capture and said it was for some ridiculous reason. It was a case where there was no argument. The assailant was there and guilty. Some could argue the assailant could be 'saved' or taught how to live in a civilized community. Honestly I do not think that is something worth gambling on and capital punishment would be for the betterment of the many.

[@duanesamuelson2256]

The death penalty is problematic even for those who are against it. What most don't actually think about the death itself isn't the actual punishment. What the penalty means is it's the ultimate rejection by society for behavior so outrageous by that societies morals and values that the perpetrator it completely removed from that society.

[@anixzation5736]

I love how Jen didn't ruin the twist for us! Smart lady 😊🎉

[@dmartinez492]

I’m born and raised in Ogden and a crazy story to add to this episode. When I was young and in scouts, my scout leader used to take us around to the activities in a van. As you might’ve guessed, it was the same van that these men used during the Hi-Fi murders. He didn’t know that at the time he bought it from police auction but it was pretty eerie when we found out.

[@theConquerersMama]

😳

[@lisastabfurth5448]

My daughter lives here now. As we drove down Washington today I said oh you have a Five Guys Burger here. She says yeah that’s the location of the HiFi murders.

[@brianna9531]

@@lisastabfurth5448it's haunted to!

[@Elizabetha2514]

@@lisastabfurth5448 no, the location is ehere Coopers is.

[@Elizabetha2514]

@@brianna9531 who says Coopers is haunted??

[@Wendy_rileywen]

I'm 45 minutes into the program and I didn't know that the criminals were black. I had no idea. And they definitely need the death penalty. And Simon, stop tripping on yourself. Don't worry about it. You're good.

[@GrievousReborn]

I don't care what somebody's races is if they raped and brutally murdered somebody and brutally killed two others they deserve death

[@domgould5113]

I too imagined them white,,but its as important as their eye colour in reality.Sad story.

[@Infodumptruck]

Worrying about it is a good thing. When it comes to stuff like this it should always be second-guessed.

[@eliharper6616]

The driver killed himself for a reason. That's the way you should feel after being associated with something like this. If they understood and felt remorse for what they did, they wouldn't feel unjustly persecuted, they would feel like they should die

[@everydayhero5076]

@@Infodumptruck Why? It's not like there's a chance they are innocent. If they commented such a heinous crime they should face the same penalty as anyone else, regardless of race.

[@do6574]

I feel like my first step in robbing a store would be to lock the front door! People just keep waking in...

[@AyyyJeyyy]

Watching Simon stumble over his words more as the horrific nature of some of these scripts starts to really get to him hurts my heart.

[@morkusmorkus6040]

These dudes definitely deserved what they got. Nothing to do with racism.

[@loke6664]

Agreed. There was no doubt they were guilty and I don't think anyone would have dodged the death penalty no matter what skin color they had. That said, the all white jury was not a great idea but I don't think a mixed jury would have made a different decision. It is one thing when you sentence people on circumstantial evidence, in those cases I am against death penalty, but in this case it was a clear case. They murdered and tortured people and even raped a girl before killing her, they got what they deserved no matter what skin color they had, what religion they followed or how influential there family were. And it is a bit dangerous to shout wolf, there was certainly actual racism in the justice system of the time (likely still is) but if you claim racism for all cases where minorities are involved you make your argument sound rather stupid and people will dismiss it. If you instead focus on the real cases you make a far better argument and people are more likely to listen.

[@realtalunkarku]

@@loke6664 who cares about the race of jurors except race vultures

[@82566]

​@@loke6664there were hardly any African Americans in the area more less the state at that time an all white jury doesn't surprise me . I agree w your whole statement very well said thank you

[@guidadiehl9176]

​@@loke6664Good luck putting together an all-black jury in Utah in the 1970s🙄

[@philipstowers4741]

I really don't care if these guys were the victims of racism. They raped, tortured and murdered people. Let's sentence them to death...(but not if it's racist?)

[@smartiee74]

I confess. I'm a true crime buff but I've NEVER heard of this crime. And at 28 minutes in, I'm debating whether or not to continue. This crime was truly senseless. I'm going to continue watching in the hope that they were caught and brought to justice. My goodness!!!

[@tonguepetals]

When you kill somebody say with a single gunshot that’s one thing, but when you actively torture and prolong the suffering of individuals through your own stupidity and sheer psychopathy you have at that moment chosen to remove yourself from the rest of humanity. You are no longer a human being, you are a monster and you need to be put down like one. They did what they did for some hi-fi equipment. I fudge back-and-forth on the death penalty because I believe that it can be used as a weapon to cause harm to minority groups and simply to get rid of undesirables for no other reason then they’re a burden to society. And then there are people like this, they do deserve to die, they 100% deserve to die. They raped the tortured and they murdered, and they did it all willfully. No, there is no reason for those people to be allowed to live. This was overkill.

[@sarahissersohn5495]

Super well stated: agreed

[@Bluesit32]

Another thing that gets me is that when the victims began thrashing and their lips started melting, they didn't shoot them immediately. The whole idea was that the stuff would kill them painlessly in seconds! When it was clear they were going to die slowly and in agony, a shot to the head is an act of mercy. Instead they waited and then shot most of them anyway.

[@TheMattTrakker]

@@Bluesit32 He had to wait so he could rape the one young girl. These people were monsters and got much better than they deserved. They should have been killed by lethal injection of drain cleaner.

[@OddSocksQueen]

@@Bluesit32 Thing is, they had a gun. The were clearly useless at using it because two of the victims survived but the point is they could’ve just used that and killed them all quickly. Why use the drain cleaner at all? Barbaric.

[@Bluesit32]

@@OddSocksQueen The idea was to kill them silently. The movie "Magnum Force" suggested that forcing someone to drink drain cleaner would kill them in seconds without a sound. Sounded like just what they wanted. Which, as far as the death penalty goes, I can look past. It was a mistake. It was a mistake they didn't bother trying to fix, however. You heard Simon describe how drain cleaner kill. They sat there and let that happen. If they can't be bothered to end the agonizingly slow death of a person, they don't deserve to be spared from the chair or needle (depending on what Utah used at the time).

[@velvethunder]

Don't worry, Simon. Jen did not spoil anything. Amazing job, as always.

[@cierrakain6844]

I came here to say this! Jen we love you!

[@dragonwings36]

Yes! Jen is epic!

[@kellylipton]

The “not” after a sarcastic statement is actually a VERY dated trend that was popular in the mid 90’s. Watch “Wayne’s World” to see it applied as perfectly as one could ever expect to find.

[@travisprobst2856]

I read about this case years ago and still remember my reaction when I did. I can't remember if their race was mentioned, as it was in either one of John Douglas' books or Roy Hazelwood. My initial reaction when reading about it was, it happened in Utah, it was a white guy. I read about the brutality of what happened, and had absolutely no issue with saying, "Whoever did this deserves the death penalty". When I found out that the perpetrators were black, my opinion did not change. And the contention by Andrews' lawyers that race played a role in his getting the death penalty, I don't feel holds water. The facts of the crimes are heinous. Yes, Selby is the actual perpetrator of the murders, but Andrews planned it, and was the reason that no witnesses left alive was the mindset going in. He deserved what he got.

[@markfaby3130]

Blaming their convictions on being Black is the only thing people like him can do.

[@aaronstanley6914]

I think most peaple assumed they were white as Utah is a white AF state. Also pretty sure most peaple said to hell with them. I know I did.

[@TheMattTrakker]

Anyone that claims that race is why these monsters need to die does a disservice to anyone actually trying to fight for that cause. I hope they all feel gross, but race hustlers seem to be immune to that.

[@JamesTTierce]

@@markfaby3130 except if theres statistics saying black people are executed more than white people. Then if we unwilling to say that races are different than skin color? If we're logical then we must look at other reasons for it such as systemic racism.

[@settame1]

@@JamesTTierceor that crime tends to follow socioeconomic conditions. The disparity is not necessarily due to racism.

[@AngBaki]

I always have a hard time getting through this story - no matter how many times I’ve heard it. I was only a couple months old when this shook my hometown of Ogden. My parents knew Orren and the morbid details of this case were well known by us all as I grew up. Death was too good for Selby and Andrews. Life in prison was too soft. There is no human justice that can be applied. Death was deserved, but could never be enough. It all makes me shiver to this day.

[@anonz975]

Drain cleaner would be a good start.

[@somechinesedude5466]

Public drain cleaner execution Probably?

[@richardcranium3579]

@@anonz975 beat me to it

[@Tsumami__]

Yeah but you’re a Mormon Passport Bro, so much of what you say is irrelevant.

[@jrmckim]

​@@Tsumami__ 😒

[@Crimicide]

You'd have to be a particularly barbetic monster to force multiple people to drink drain cleaner especially after seeing the horrific effects on the first victim.

[@valiantsfelinesmccarty6678]

I didn't think I would have PTSD with this episode I love Simon but as he explained the drain cleaner and how it kills it brought back my years taking care of a patient who had drank drain cleaner. I spent five years with her and I became very close to her I can still see her in my mind many episodes such as when she tried to eat a piece of candy and almost choked to death when she begged us to let her have a piece of cake and we couldn't but you can have the frosting because it would melt. Like a brittle diabetic who craves food they can't have she couldn't be trusted not to put something in her mouth that would kill her so she had to be monitored 24/7 as well as fed through a surgically installed stomach tube.. It was so hard that's why she had to live in the hospital and luckily it was a nice Rehab Hospital not a really horrible place but it had used up all of her inheritance.. Her family was crazy they would bring her boxes of candy she was supposed to share with her roommate and visitors as she wasn't able to swallow them. She was able to melt as luckily she had quickly drink the liquid and it had not destroyed her mouth the doctors couldn't believe she still had a tongue. But beyond the tongue was nothing but burnt tissue. Her vocal cords only allowed her to speak at a whisper. Eventually we were all happy that she finally found peace due to old age and disease. She had lived that way for 20 years. Her son was killed in Vietnam their only child and then her husband died of a heart attack because he was older than her and it was his only child also. He had saved her from a life of Horror she had been sold on the streets by her family into prostitution and he had taken her away from it. The people who came to visit her were on her husband's side and told us about how horrible her family had been to her. Even in her old age she was a beautiful woman with hair down to the backs of her knees. When her husband died she thought she had nothing to live for if it hadn't been for his intervention. But it was so hard for her to live in a world where food was right there and she couldn't touch it. We made sure she could have Jello ice cream Sherbert anything that would melt water could be absorbed through her system of course she had no intestinal tract from the esophagus to the bowels the liquid food went straight into her lower intestine. However, she was healthy she could walk around she could participate in activities and she had friends and family that loved her. I asked her once did she wish she had never done it and she said yes that her husband would have never wanted her to kill herself. He had wanted her to live a long life enjoying what he had given her. It was just she was in a dark place as she didn't think anyone would love her again. She felt so alone in the world with the death of both of them. The sad part is there were so many people that really loved her, cared about her, & enjoyed her companionship & humor. If only she had reached out and told them she was hurting that bad it probably would have never happened.

[@Alexa-eg9wy]

Oh my gosh that was brutal to read. Poor woman, and wow being able to deal with that had to be so hard for you

[@Hammerhead547]

Fun Fact: When Gary Gilmore was being led too the execution chamber at Utah State Prison in 1977 he asked to stop at Selbey's death row cell where he told him "I'll see you in hell" before spitting in his face and then laughing at him. If you get a chance you should do the story of Clifford Olsen (aka: The Beast Of BC) whose crimes were so vile and horrifying that they directly led to an attempt at reinstating the death penalty in canada in 1986 and a special high security courtroom (courtroom 13 in the BC Supreme Court in Surrey BC) had to be built specifically for his trial because the crown prosecution service were afraid that the public would storm the courthouse seize him and then lynch him on the courthouse steps. The investigation was utterly botched that the RCMP couldn't connect hm to the disappearances of the 11 children he kidnapped raped tortured and killed and then they paid him $100.000 for information that led them to the remains of his victims, there's also the other things he supposedly admitted too involving cannibalism and necrophilia that could never be proven because the remains of his victims were recovered in a fully decomposed skeletal state.

[@Maven0666]

Gary Gilmore would be a good story.

[@Hammerhead547]

@@Maven0666 There's a movie on amazon prime about the Clifford Olson case called the investigation that's all about how the RCMP royally fucked up the case to the point that olson actually believed he was getting away with it.

[@Maven0666]

@@Hammerhead547 JFC,this was one FU crime.

[@Hammerhead547]

@@Maven0666 Part of it had to do with the fact he used rental cars too commit his crimes, he once put 5000km on one in just 7 days, the other part had to do with the fact that a lot of his victims came from a rundown crime ridden part of surrey and they didn't prioritize the disappearances.

[@scottfraser880]

I grew up in BC and I remember this. It was a scary time. I think it would be a good episode for C.Criminalist.

[@AyameSohma]

Fun fact: My grandfather interviewed Selby. He was a psychologist at the Utah State Prison for years.

[@theparkourlady894]

What was his take away? Was it just hate fueled counter-racism or is it some sort of psychopathy?

[@AyameSohma]

​@@theparkourlady894 Definitely psychopathy. Selby and Andrews planned robbing the store well in advance, but did not care who the victims would be. Three of the five victims were not planned. There is now a documentary on Peacock and Oxygen about my grandpa's research, and one of the episodes focuses on the Hi-Fi murders. It's called Violent Minds: Killers on Tape.

[@theparkourlady894]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing ❤

[@nathanmarcano3171]

In regards to David's question in the script (and I am pausing about the 44:30 mark to write all this up); yes, and I think it didn't go far enough. Let's take race out of the equation, you have five tortured, one raped, three dead, one that is going to be completely removed from any hope of normative life going forward, and one who is absolutely going to be suffering from PTSD for the rest of his days from watching his son get executed in cold blood (so at least two aggravated assaults). It is cases like this I intend to point to when someone tries to tell me evil isn't real, evil is very real, it is just much more mundane than we wish to think about. Also worth keeping in mind, if I am understanding things correctly, all these people were in the Air Force, and at least everywhere I've lived, active military tend to be held to a higher standard than the average citizen. Is that fair or unfair? Maybe, but the idea is that these are some of the most disciplined people in the community, people who have chosen to live to that higher standard. The fact that, and again this is if I am understanding things correctly, two active Airmen slaughtered three people, functionally killed one, and tried to do the same to the last one... no. I think that there is no punishment we could have given them that would have fit the crime. And for what? About five-thousand dollars. These people ended three lives and ruined two others for five-thousand dollars. Sorry, I don't buy the idea that five lives, three of which were still in their prime, are worth so little. They went in with the intent to kill whoever was there, that alone ticks the box for me. If after reading this, dear reader, you find yourself disagreeing, let me say this; that's fine. On the broader face it is a very complex issue, and we have likely very different life experiences. Those inform you one way, mine inform me another. Our philosophical backgrounds may differ, and that is perfectly fine. You might even have religious reasoning to say why you oppose it in this very case, and for that, I will simply agree to disagree.

[@joshuamangham9588]

They actually should have had to face a military court as well as the civilian court...

[@Bluesit32]

The rape one really gets me. After watching the effects of the drain cleaner chug, this guy was able to get aroused? Was it despite the events or DUE to the events? I can't even fathom. He definitely needed to face the firing squad.

[@debbiejones7269]

I agree they went into this planning to kill someone, and that alone would to my mind qualify them for the death penalty. It's premeditated. I would even argue that the burglary was a cover for the murders, not the other way around.

[@dailey_adventure2678]

The dude murdered someone raped someone and stole from someone and tortured people What else does someone need to do to get the death penalty

[@elizabethgrey9157]

Would he ever do something like that again, given the chance? Probably yes. In that case, death sentence. It's cheaper than keeping him in prison, and safer for the rest of the world.

[@Joe_Potts]

Don't forget mutilation Gotta have the full psycho bingo card

[@helenwood8482]

The death penalty only exists so people as sick as they were can get the same thrill without having to do their own killing.

[@audreymuzingo933]

@@helenwood8482 I kinda feel that way too sometimes. An executed inmate's death certificate literally cites 'Homicide' as the manner of death, because that's what it is, death caused by Homo sapiens. No matter how heinous the crimes were, it was based on the killers deciding the victims didn't deserve to live. So what does that make us when we decide the same thing, even with what we call "better" reasoning. We shouldn't feel joyful about anyone dying, ever. But then....... ...... I say that without knowing how it feels to have a loved one stolen from me. For all I know, if that did happen, namely if it was my daughter, I might want to be the one to throw the switch myself. But even then, maybe the law should not cater to citizens' fiery anger.

[@audreymuzingo933]

Selby would have become a serial killer if not caught for this crime. The fact that he could even be aroused enough to rape after seeing people choke on their dissolved tissues and go in to convulsions .......is just horrifying.

[@lindamcfarland9656]

Ive listened to tons of true crime shows over the years either on tv or on KZbin or read about them in books. In recent years, I've found they disturb me more and more. For that reason Ive dialed way back on my intake, but I love The Casual Criminalist because the humor Simon and the producers use helps take the edge off. That said, i have to admit that I'd never heard this story and it's one of very few that made me actually cry while hearing the crime details.

[@commonsense571]

Ohh. Please take care of yourself 🪴

[@TheStonesQT93]

The victims appeared to be so wonderful, so full of potential. This was heartbreaking

[@Guy-cb1oh]

My dad was in the same graduation class at Ogden High with the victim of this case. He said that during graduation when he accepted his diploma, everyone gave him a standing ovation for what he was put through including having to skip a year of school due to this.

[@Elizabetha2514]

True!

[@grilledleeks6514]

He got a standing ovation because his classmate was killed? Ok?

[@Elchinoalto]

@@grilledleeks6514 more like he survived and was able to fight back enough to come back and graduate from high school u heard how gruesome those murders were just imaging living through that and trying to live a normal life after seeing that

[@katieb4314]

@@grilledleeks6514 uh yeah. People have empathy

[@WhiteWolf-lm7gj]

@@grilledleeks6514 I believe that "he" referred to Cortney, the victim

[@YouBetterCallSaul]

Absolutely amazing presentation. I was right there with Simon in my mental imagery of who I imagined did these crimes. 🙋🏼‍♂️

[@myhopeyourhopej-hope9913]

I started preferring the podcast version because it comes out quicker, but I had to come to comment this: As a black person, I say they deserved the dealth penalty. And watching Simon be gaslit to thinking he was wrong for it was exceededly frustrating and sad.

[@Maven0666]

It’s just his age I think. Conflicting content for sure.

[@mitchellpatterson1829]

I don't think Simon was gaslit in this one, it was a narrative choice. I see the first half was written as a factual crime report like a normal episode, but the racial part of it was held until after the normal criminalist story arc. This was done so Simon, and the audience could separate the criminal, and social elements of the whole mess. This allowed the racial murkiness to be discussed outside the context of this specific crime (where the race part is irrelevant). This is one episode where, despite the heinous act committed, the real story is the trial and aftermath.

[@Maven0666]

@@mitchellpatterson1829 Right. No. I don’t think it was gaslit either. He was definitely put right in the spot. Those poor ppl that survived. Maybe it might have been better for them and their families if they had died so no one would have suffered.

[@SamS-uv2ql]

He was wrong. Death penalty is barbaric.

[@droomzy]

@@Maven0666 yes I feel for Simon bc you can tell he was tripping over his words to get to the right conclusion that I believe most of us agreed with; while racial injustice is a prevalent issue in U.S. justice, this did not appear as an example of that. regardless of their race, I think Andrews deserved life imprisonment & Selby deserved death. and I'm a Black man so I can say this devoid of any racial agenda. I'm also a liberal but I do concede that it seems that occasionally, some agencies will claim a sense of bigotry in a case that a guilty person of minority doesn't DESERVE to have such an agency defend them. like, I can understand the NAACP defending Andrews somewhat bc he was more complicit than he was a participant but Selby was irredeemably malicious in this entire crime; AND he had priors, AND he had several outs to let the hostages who were dying slower live, but he KEPT trying other methods.

[@sksksksl]

Your compassion for the victims comes through very clearly. The death penalty is indeed complex and complicated. There was no question about what these men did. It was crystal clear that, for the good of society, they were put down. I have no problem with that.

[@dhardman2474]

I was born in 73 and grew up in salt lake city. I grew up hearing about this case. It affected many ppl. I didn't hear a lot of racism but many ppl did talk about the brutality of the murders. Thanks for bringing this case to the front burner for a few minutes.

[@ToxicScifi]

R.E. the moral quandry you feel pain about. this is why we have jury's and it never falls to one person. you are a good soul, thanks for the content.

[@Maven0666]

That’s why there’s the thing called the benefit of doubt. I don’t think any jury would find any here.

[@SamS-uv2ql]

It does fall to individuals though. Often need unanimous decision in death penalty cases

[@katiestott1449]

David did an amazing job with this episode. The choices he made narratively were great and the thoroughness and nuance of the various topics were handled really well. I feel like I came away with a good understanding of the crime and its circumstances without gratuitous sensationalism or bias. He also presented things in a way that gave Simon a lot to talk about and gave dimensionality to his commentary. Very well done.

[@Riri_Kiwi455]

As someone who grew up about 15 minutes away from Ogden utah I heard about this story numerous times but just BARELY did any research on the actual crimes and suspects, specifically was shocked to find out they were in the Army after multiple crimes they committed before this incident. Genuinely sickening what happened and I totally agree with the punishment.

[@TylaStark]

Jen's editing is just top notch. The wink had me cackling.

[@robwilkes3351]

It's called the "felony murder rule" in the U.S. and essentially means that if you engage in any felony in which someone dies (even your accomplices) you can be charged with first degree murder, the most serious kind of murder.

[@ferguson8143]

Capitol murder , first , second and then manslaughter

[@robwilkes3351]

@Ferguson It all depends on the jurisdiction you're talking about, but "Capitol Murder" is when the death penalty is required by the law. Even some stares with the death penalty don't have a "capitol murder" charge because there is no law stating when the death penalty MUST be applied. Also, there are different degrees of murder, but there's not always a charge of manslaughter. For instance, a state may have First Degree (planning to kill), Second Degree (not planning to kill, but deciding to kill), and Third Degree (Not deciding to kill but taking reckless and dangerous action that the accused should have known would result in death). That last is what some places call manslaughter. In the U.S. you can usually never just declare "this is the way it is" with laws because there's almost always at least one stare that's different. Even my statement about the felony murder rule should have had a qualifier, because NJ and CA only apply it under certain circumstances while Hawaii, Kentucky, and Michigan have all abolished the practice.

[@TheUnapologeticGeek]

This one is rough. I didn’t even realize how hard it was hitting me until I suddenly felt myself getting close to tears.

[@Blackrain7070]

Usually the descriptions of violence the victims suffer in these episodes are palpable (save the hello kitty one), but this one and the torture before the killings and the traumatic aftermath is just... the ability for humans to commit evil is nauseating

[@richardcranium3579]

The true evil is trying to keep the monster alive after his evil acts. Torturing the victims families.

[@error404webpagenotfound]

@@richardcranium3579 it really depends. I think in some cases they'd rather die than sit in prison for the rest of their life. So the obvious worse punishment would be to make them sit in prison for the rest of their life. Also when they're put on death row they're treated a lot better than the average prisoner. They don't get to leave their cells but they get more luxuries than the average prisoner ex: art supplies like paint and canvases, pillows, nice blankets, better furnished and larger prison cells, some get better meals. This is not true for all death row prisons, but it is for the majority of them. Idk if it's because they're about to die so they let them have a more "comfortable" sentence, or if they treat them better bc they feel guilty that they have to kill them. They also don't get executed immediately. A lot of them are on death row for 10+ years. In some cases the victims families don't even get to see them put to death. If it were a perfectly balanced world they'd die the same way they killed their victims. An easy, peaceful, and humane death sentence is too good and life in prison isn't good enough.

[@andrewb8809]

I've only seen a few of Simon's videos, but I can now safely say I believe he could present the scariest story ever and I could still sit and enjoy it without being too freaked out. Before I could get creeped out he would totally interrupt his own video with some other personal story of his that has nothing to do with anything. I like that.

[@bucketofsunshine6366]

This is why I like him too. He has the only true crime podcast I'll listen to.

[@chrish9762]

Yes yes yes!!! I grew up near where this happened. It was so horrific, it scared us as kids. I've been waiting for someone to react to this story!!!

[@teslafreak]

The color of their skin doesn't matter at all. It was a very clear case in terms of evidence, and they definitely deserved the death penalty. (FWIW, I am a native Utah citizen)

[@miketobias1821]

I'm really glad that Simons brand has gotten bigger & bigger on You Tube. Simon & his team works very hard. They deserve success.

[@RealBelisariusCawl]

I understand your struggle Simon. I hate the death penalty on principle, but then there are monsters like these people or like Pedro Lopez where they are SO DANGEROUS that you can’t help but feel like the only way to keep society safe from them is to PERMANENTLY and IRREVOCABLY remove them from society. It’s horrible, but sometimes it’s hard to see any other realistic option for some classes of offender.

[@betaich]

You also can remove them from society permanently remove them from society with live in prison.

[@lawrencegerads7955]

I agree that the death penalty has been misused, but in this case, I think it was the only option. I believe that people like Dahmer, Bundy, Fish, as well as repeat child predators need to be removed from the population and not just stashed in a prison where there is a chance of escape or exposure to other inmates. There are 💯 some people who are too evil or dangerous to be left alive, and Shelby and Andrews both qualify, regardless of race.

[@EncIave-]

@@betaich True but than you have to pay for them to eat sleep en everything

[@noepopkiewicz901]

Some criminals do their best to make death penalty a viable, if not highly preferred option. There seem to be 2 big problems with death penalty, the issue of being 100% sure whether the person is absolutely not innocent and the issue of where the line should be drawn for what qualifies for it. Regardless of this, cases exist - like Pedro Lopez or Ramirez - where one should wonder why anyone would ever object to them getting the death sentence. If one's principles result in them defending people like Lopez, then perhaps those principles require some additional thought.

[@bannankev]

Simon, I come here for your (as well as others) Opinions and Tangents on the subject thats at hand during the episode. If not for the Tangents and Opinions we would all be alike and just living a pointless meaningless life. We all need to feel, and know how others view things. Perspective is powerful if you open your eyes, mind and probably most important the heart. Thank you for what you do 👏🏼!

[@alexander1112000]

Well, since Simon suggested recommending giving David our recommendations… hey, David, any thoughts on an episode on Dr. Linda Hazard and her “clinic” at Starvation Heights? Might give Simon a fun healthcare-related crisis

[@AdamantErinyes]

As a Seattle resident I highly approve of this. I actually got my kitten in Olalla, and I am highly suspicious of her dietary advice.... I mean, mostly because she's a cat.

[@mary.h.377]

Caitlin Doughty (Ask A Mortician) did a great episode on the subject, she went and visited the site... look it up its great!

[@alexander1112000]

@@mary.h.377 I actually did see that one! But I wanna watch Simon’s reaction lol

[@mary.h.377]

@@alexander1112000 Cool, yeah, i admire caitlins channel and storytelling a lot... i want to add i would also love a collab between caitlin and simon maybe for today i found out!. (:

[@Maven0666]

Oh,that kook. What an awful person she was. I bet David could write a great episode for that!

[@whaleymom76]

1) That whole "Not!" thing was very common in the 80s and coincides with the advent of the Valley Girl vernacular. I think I may have heard it 3 or 4 times in all the decades since then. 2) The crime you were trying to remember the term of is "felony murder". It applies to any death that occurs during the commission of a felony. (For example, if you break into a gas station and demand the money from the worker while waving a gun at him, if that man has a heart attack due to the stress of the robbery and he dies, you will be charged with felony murder. It is the most commonly used statute that allows prosecutors to pursue the death penalty. (For full disclosure, this is not done in every state but I cannot give you the exact number of states that have this statute but I do know it is the majority/plurality of the US.)

[@Insertia_Nameia]

There's some places where that while "not" thing is still something done. Not as commonly as when I was a kid but it's still around. It wasn't something gi ever understood until recently. But then again I grew up in a household with really dry humor. But I guess I can see why now though. Take me, I don't ever say that and I know people that have known me for litteral years and they still sometimes struggle to tell when I'm being serious or when I'm just saying random shit with a straight face.

[@whaleymom76]

@@Insertia_Nameia You must be British. 🙂

[@Insertia_Nameia]

@@whaleymom76 nah. I'm American. I have ancestors from Britain though on my dads side. But most of this dry humor I get from my mom and my grandpa, her dad. His dad was from what was once Czechoslovakia, Hungary, amd Turkey. So like Russain adjacent, which I guess counts too. Lol

[@Bluesit32]

I've never heard someone use that "not!" phrase since the 90s (not ironically, anyway). Utah is a strange place.

[@melissaharris3890]

Most of the 90s too

[@everydayhero5076]

That moment when Simon gets excited about the death penalty... priceless. Why does race matter? If they murdered and raped people they should face the same penalty as any other person should. No one should get special treatment in the eyes of the law.

[@ymirs4400]

I agree, but it’s a sad fact that the justice system has a racist bias, and since 1973, death row inmates that were exonerated were 58% black, and you are 4 times more likely to receive the death penalty if you’re black than if white, especially if the victims are white.

[@RLucas3000]

i 100% agree, but i think the NAACP was all too familiar with southern sheriffs that lied and fabricated evidence about black defendants. Here there were actual witnesses, one who lost his son so clearly wouldn’t lie just to get two black men, he wanted to see his son get justice. But i think the NAACP was just thinking about the general principal of all white southern juries. i would say that here, there being two witnesses left alive that both lost family members, the case is as open and shut as a case could be back then, and both the man who carried out the killings, and the man who planned them, deserved to die. After all, they didn’t care about the innocent people in agony or begging for their lives.

[@TheMattTrakker]

@@RLucas3000 You're making excuses.

[@souleaterevans4589]

That's true, but as Simon was saying, we'd need to know the stats of Utah's sentencings for aggravated murder and/or similar cases that weren't labelled aggravated for whatever reason. We don't know if they did face "the same penalty" as whites doing the same crimes. If you ask me, everyone who knew the full extent of the plan (namely the killings) and still took part deserved to be put to death. They made their decision to value a human's life as less than $30,000 so why bother giving them a chance to live their own lives? However, a miscarriage of the law is still a problem because it can affect appeals and any cases that use this case as a benchmark for sentencing. If we choose not to care about this instance of possible misconduct, we run the risk that any of us could be sentenced improperly due to things we can't change.

[@RubyBlueUwU]

The fear is them being given a harsher sentence than their white counterparts specifically due to racism, it’s a fear that both peoples’ subconscious biases as well as overt racism could lead to the trial being unjust - not because they deserve leniency, but because they deserve the same punishment anyone of any race would get. It’s one of those things that does need bringing up and talking about even in cases like this, because without vigilance it would be easy for some cases to fall through the cracks where a person is genuinely punished too harshly or even without enough solid evidence due to racism and racial biases, the fact that it’s being looked into doesn’t necessarily mean it’s gonna turn out to be correct and necessary, just that people are appropriately concerned with preserving the integrity of the courts and the legal system. Essentially, if guilty people don’t have access to a fair and just trial, it won’t be long before nobody does, because anyone can be guilty in an unjust trial.

[@buddyzilla4557]

The "Not" thing was a sort of phase. I can't speak for all of the US but it hasn't been a thing people regularly do un-ironically in quite some time. I also feel it has gathered a bit of a nostalgic recognition behind it for being so stupid but also of the time. The way you heard/presented it was also not the typical way it was supposed to be used. Rather than be an endcap to a sarcastic statement, it was supposed to be used as a twist burn to a compliment. You would say a compliment or something to another person that they wanted to hear in a genuine tone, then shout "not" to embarrass them. This is obviously just as dumb and infantile but it really peaked in the super edgy 90's. It is a pop culture callback that only was popular because of rhe social environment of the time. The "cool kids" in media would be shown doing that when I was growing up but was mostly used by bullys in real life when I was a child.

[@kimseiberling5263]

I think Chandler used the say it on the show Friends.

[@furiouskaiser9914]

That, or the guy just saw Borat for the first time.

[@patrickaycock3655]

Yeah... i havent heard it used since i was a teen in the 90s. Plus sarcasm is a dying art in america. Comedy is dying right behind it. Too many people being too serious and taking things way too personally.

[@cindyscrazy]

@@kimseiberling5263 I remember it from the band Anthrax, I think they had video that had this phrase in it a lot. I don't know, the 90's were weird.

[@mowm88]

It was from Bill and Ted.

[@tamarak.8800]

I wouldn't be "offended" by the others to get life in prison, but with crimes that bad, it's difficult to genuinely care about them getting death.

[@IntrepidFraidyCat]

Jen, spectacular editing on this one! Lol, especially the flashbacks of Simon. 👍🏻😃

[@solotraveler37]

Hats off to Jen for not letting the cat out of the bag! I'm not going to spoil the surprise, but I'll just say that I'm glad the moral complexity of certain sentences was given a thorough hearing.

[@Unknown-bq9id]

Apparently, when Gary Gilmore was being led to his own execution, he stopped at Andrews and Selby's cells and said, "See you in Hell, Andrews and Selby!"

[@mariet4894]

So they went through all this to “not leave any witnesses” but then created their own witnesses by openly planning/ confessing to their crimes in advance…..sounds like that psycho just really wanted an excuse to off some people and take his friends with him

[@henrydickerson9776]

I wouldn't call them "psycho." I'd call them stupid and evil.

[@jasonritner9662]

"Why do people support the death penalty?" Me: *Gestures at this insanity* Edit: I'm right there with Simon, it's a morally sticky topic, but sometimes... it's just not worth keeping them alive

[@Guy-cb1oh]

Yeah, This case sure tests the resolve of those who oppose the death penalty...

[@industrialvectors]

Would you consider the following to make sense? Capital punishment is a difficult topic only because for so many terrible murders, we cannot be 100% sure. Cases like the one in this episode, with what is presented as overwhelming evidence and barbaric execution leave no doubt in our minds. I really agree with the counter argument that I never want to give any government of any sort the ability to decide death of a citizen. But I do consider fair that a jury of the citizens in a case where doubt is not a question should be able to decide death, however I wouldn't want to foot the bill for 18 years in death row, barely a week.

[@deltav864]

It's too easy... like the dude said: "I'll be glad when this is all over." Let them wallow in their guilt, shame and mental torture if/when they develop a conscience later in life. A chance to repay a small amount of their debt to society instead of declaring bankruptcy.

[@dlo111]

This was so hard to hear, thank you David for not making it even harder.

[@lavb1677]

As soon as you mentioned the basement of the shop, I realized I had heard about these murders before and my heart sank. Good job as usual!

[@technicalout9547]

It’s called the “felony murder” rule. If someone is murdered during the commission of another felony, the defendant may be subject to the death penalty-or the worst the state has to offer. Also, there’s a “rule of parties”, which means that anybody there, trigger man or not, is guilty of the worst crimes committed. Even the getaway driver.

[@victoriandino]

Haha I was about to comment the same thing!

[@mistyhaney5565]

Exactly, which leads to the inexplicable cases of the person who actually killed someone making a plea deal and getting life and the guy who didn't get out of the car getting death. I don't know about other states, but in Texas killing a police officer is automatically eligible for the death penalty.

[@technicalout9547]

@@mistyhaney5565 you are correct. Killing kids under 6, too. Also, killing a witness in a murder trial, or it used to be. I’m retired.

[@mistyhaney5565]

@@technicalout9547 I didn't know about the kids under six. I'm against the death penalty, but I think that if you're going to have it then child murderers should be at the top of the list. I worked for years with children whose parents had abused them. The state would then put them in therapy and give them back to their parents or foster parents, who at least half the time were just as bad. I believe that one thing that should be considered when sentencing murderers is the amount of the victims life they're taken.

[@deboralee1623]

i think California has a similar law: even the wheel man, whose only job was to drive, gets charged with murder.

[@artemis213]

I am gradually working my way through your catalog and have thoroughly enjoyed it. I have a background in trauma medicine, so honestly a lot of gruesome details have not bothered me. But I had a truly visceral reaction of disgust as soon as you began describing drain cleaner. I have cared for these patients. It’s a gruesome thing, an especially miserable death, and for those who survive, a life of suffering. It was almost too much and that feeling of dread and disgust is still sticking with me. I didn’t think of race at all, the crassness and brutality of their tactics earned them the severity of their punishment.

[@kevinfoster1138]

Simon not sure if it was even on this channel (you have so many) you impressed me when you had some technical difficulty and had to rerecord a video you made it clear to us (the viewer) that you read that one already. Stay real Simon. Thank you.

[@robertalpy9422]

You're becoming an American Simon. We have alot of freedom. Unfortunately some people use that freedom to commit horrible murders. In Texas they have a saying dating back to the time when horse theft was a capital offense. You see...stealing a man's horse out in the middle of nowhere was as good as killing him. So the Texans would say " No horse ever needed stealing, but some men just need killing."

[@amemooress6291]

These crimes were so hard to listen to. It helps that Simon is as pained reading it as I am hearing it 😢

[@ryanroberts1104]

I would love to see a story about Randal Woodfield, aka "The I5 killer". Suspected in 44 murders, convicted for some. He was in the NFL for a short time and got up to some weird things in prison - like being married three times. More importantly in 1980 he abducted my mother. He jumped into her car at knife point and made her drive. At some point, he leaned out of the car to tie his shoe, and she hit the gas. If she hadn't she would be on the victim list and I would not exist. He still sits in prison to this day.

[@honorafox4709]

I am truly thankful that your mother made it and is safe. I thank the Lord for that. Prison is too good for that piece of trash human. They really do need to bring back public executions like the Firing squad or public hangings. These people never change and prison affords them a pretty cozy lifestyle paid for by people's taxes. That is unfair to everyone, especially the victims. I wish many blessings to your mother and your family. 🙏

[@michaelmoore7975]

Did you know when Sherri Papini "reappeared" after being "abducted" she was found at one Randall's hunting grounds?

[@theConquerersMama]

OMG!

[@mallorycannon3011]

Oh my gosh that's so scary. You're mom sounds like a fighter and strong woman! Kudos to her.

[@sarahissersohn5495]

Wait, clarification point please: did Woodfield fall out? Go, your mom!

[@Drakengardification]

Ever since I first started watching these episodes, I have been waiting for Simon to, little by little, get to the point where he says something like, "It's complicated. No, it's not. Kill them all". It took a long time, but here we are.

[@krazykirstie2619]

I’ve watched a LOT of Casual Criminalist for the past three years but, honestly, none of the cases have ever made me cry except for this one. They’ve always all been devastating and sickening but this one made me genuinely sob.

[@ThisCrazyRALife]

My parents have lived in Ogden their whole lives and knew and had went to school with the victims. This case has always had a huge impact on my life growing up in Ogden and I always knew never go anywhere alone and always watch your surroundings.

[@konekoenchanted5919]

I was young when this happened and knew Courtney well after this occurred. Everyone knew not to ask him questions about it, it was best never to bring it up. This was when I lived in Layton and now live in Ogden. I pass by the place where it happened when on my way to work. I always think of Courtney when going by.

[@dismurrart6648]

What was he like?

[@jeffdroog]

They don't know.Its just someone spreading lies for attention.They didn't know him,and it's in really bad taste to make things up like that.Someone who really knew him,or cared about him,wouldn't be racing to a comment section on a KZbin video,just to say this.Theyd have shown real care,and respect,and realized that them knowing them,isn't the news to spread,but rather how knowing that person actually changed their life,and such,and what kind of person they really were,or they just wouldn't be posting this in a comment section on KZbin,as that's pretty disrespectful anyhow.

[@girlspooptoo8567]

Shit That’s rough Be good player

[@goddammitalana]

@Jeffrey Droog its not unreasonable for someone to have known a victim and also be into true crime content on youtube. Stop

[@randygorham5016]

Jesus.. I never heard of this case until today and I’m down near Lehi..

[@jessyhall9464]

Your correct Simon I generally don't like the death penalty but like you said these guys don't deserve to live. As someone who has actually suffocated to death once from an asthma attack I can honestly say its not worst way to go you in my case i just got light headed and then fell asleep and thanks to modern medical technology i was revived. but that drain cleaner shit sounds unimaginably horrible and gave me a legit panic attack trying to imagine. Also I love your show and its awesome to see your perspective as you are generally an extremely innocent person.

[@obscuremusicbox]

Great work and dedication David. The exclusive interviews, research, and Simon's asides separate the Casual Criminalist from the other numerous true crime podcasts. I especially enjoy learning about lesser known cases.

[@dr.davidbaker86]

:) I appreciate that, thanks

[@Siilikeiju]

I'd love an episode on Varg Vikernes and all the craziness around Mayhem in General (Per Ohlin's suicide photos etc.). I imagine Simon's reactions would be great!

[@franciebelcher4594]

"Selby, man, u gotta get that needle" Completely agree. These guys r horrid.

[@stevenrodriguez5355]

I check every single day from a vid from any of your channels i love the topics and the personalities of you and your writers keep up the great work

[@thejudgmentalcat]

So, you've subbed to all 64 of them like I have? 👍

[@heilenemarsh8241]

You and me both!!

[@vin8889]

@@thejudgmentalcat yes subscribed to all 700 of them :p

[@PeachM0de]

Why not just turn on Notifications? Then you wouldn’t have to constantly check back

[@stevenrodriguez5355]

@@PeachM0de i do but i have other youtube subs so it gets lost

[@Im4dr4g0n]

I'm ogden born and raised. Orren was our home teacher when I was little, and my grandma worked with Courtney's dad at the hospital for a long time. I've learned a lot about these murders, and this was a pretty good essay!

[@jeffwinbush5039]

I read this story years ago and it was easily one of the most sadistic and cruel murders ever. It should send shivers down the spine of anyone who fears of dying violent at the hands of stupid, blood-crazed sociopaths.

[@andydbedford]

It matters not what Colour or ethnicity they are, what matters is the horrific crimes they committed, everyone involved knew what was going to happen, and deserve the death penalty.

[@debshep8141]

Great job David and also to Simon to getting through this awful material. I voted death penalty before hearing ethnicity. No human deserved the torture the victims experienced.

[@dr.davidbaker86]

Thanks!

[@MorganHorse]

Seeing that Orren lived to 70 and Cortney only lived to 44, dying ten days before I was born 😞

[@christopherfain8736]

This might--now--be my favorite episode. For all aspects of how it was done--from writing to editing to the presentation--on the fly, as it's a cold read! You are an amazing team.

[@Kaenightowl]

This episode was brutal and I learned so much about the trial and process of conviction in Utah during the 1970s. Thank you for the informative episode, and brilliant job writer!

[@dr.davidbaker86]

Thank you! :)

[@SlavaSlavenima]

33:22 it’s not a crime to plan or think about a crime until you’ve actually committed the crime in that way it’s not a thought crime

[@lackinganame7857]

This one ended up being a brilliant argument for a blind jury.

[@annasutton4029]

“I don’t want to talk about preferable ways to kill someone… but I’m about to” Edit: I was also assuming the perpetrators were white up until the reveal and also don’t think that changes anything given the crimes and evidence against them… but I appreciate how significant a complicating factor it is in this particular case for sure. Excellent storytelling, David!

[@dr.davidbaker86]

Thanks :)

[@SamS-uv2ql]

Try to never assume race.

[@nicholaslewis8594]

Sam S you’re probably going to picture a mental image of the scene, so painting mental images of the people is part of that.

[@SamS-uv2ql]

@@nicholaslewis8594 very few people do that.

[@PrehistoricPro]

@@SamS-uv2ql The vast majority of people do that, actually. Most people create mental images when they read/listen to stories and it's not necessarily a voluntary process. If you're unable to do that, it's possible you have aphantasia. However, only 1-5% of people do.

[@Ninja_Geek]

Simon: *mildly bashes Raycons* Me, listening to this on my Raycon earbuds: "They work well enough, IMO."

[@zata1197]

I have no moral dilemma with any of this, everyone involved deserved death. You can't tell me the other guys didn't know going into this that selby was going to poison the hostages, that makes them all accomplishes to murder. And if you ask me, while I respect the role they played in america at the time, the naacp jumping in trying to get these men off purely because they are black makes them look horrible and diminishes their credibility when fighting actual racism. If thinking any of this makes someone racist then you can consider me a grand fucking wizard, I don't care.

[@25acpunderrated71]

100% agree

[@Ajin718]

Yeah I agree, I believe in the death penalty 100%, I would say however the we need to change the way we do things so innocent people don’t end up there, but that’s a separate issue.

[@zata1197]

@@Ajin718 for sure, I think while not everyone can agree on the death penalty, we can all agree that every possible measure needs to be taken to ensure someone isn't wrongly sentenced.

[@Michael-zf1ko]

Agree about the NAACP. I can't respect anyone who goes out of their way to defend such horrible criminals. They aren't their defense lawyers or family.

[@movieswithshannon]

Thank you David for all your hard work and also to Simon who is brave enough to wander the darkness and ponder capital punishment for our amusement. We appreciate you both!

[@dr.davidbaker86]

Thanks so much!

[@movieswithshannon]

@@dr.davidbaker86 you are most welcome!

[@frederickthorne2496]

Ogden is my home town. Growing up here, many of us either knew someone, were friends with or related to people directly affected by what happened at the Hi-Fi Shop. A close friend of my father worked there and was scheduled to be there that day, but had arranged for a co-worker to cover his shift. He was questioned by police and lived in a state of paranoia for years after the incident and struggled with a really dark weight of survivor guilt. I was barely old enough to talk but too young to truly understand what any of it meant at the time. I do remember my family talking about it quite a lot and being completely shook up by all the details as they emerged. To this day, Ogden is still very much haunted by what took place at the Hi-Fi Shop in April of 1974, as well as the trials and the executions.

[@four-dollardiscount1723]

Man, I work nightshift as security and every time I'm about to die of boredom I smash on some Cas-Crim. Keep it up guys! Been here from the start!

[@three7446]

I’d imagine that would make your job extra scary

[@tobychase131]

Me 2!

[@vinnyk.9670]

A police officer I spoke to after I had been robbed told me "we never catch the smart ones."

[@alexsmith-gn4tp]

Your scrips are great but your voice makes it SO much better ❤