The TRUTH about how fighting games get "easier"

[@Someguy96Lx]

Auto-combos = Fine. Auto-combos that continue AND auto-correct on WHIFF should not be a thing

[@ATLRiot_]

Faaaaacts

[@nicholousdreve9556]

You nailed it

[@SH4D0WBattousai]

and dont forget the auto mixups and auto blockstrings that can go safe literally til timeout lol. That was the mistake with dbfz literally defense is a read (deflect/spark/yolo dp) and auto combos are ridiculously optimized to the point they even break the freakin game rules. I havent seen anyone complain about auto combos in GBVS just to mention another title.

[@sladejosephwilson2300]

This is why I am never buying the game.

[@SH4D0WBattousai]

@@sladejosephwilson2300 I got it but DLC is also pretty expensive and required to compete so bye bye I'll stick with GBVS.

[@dawildehoers5306]

I think people don’t realize how well overpowered moves/strats work as learning tools. I came into DBFZ not knowing what oki was, but bardock’s old lvl3 taught me. I didn’t know how mixups really worked until watching cell/buu ball mixups. I didn’t realize the value of assists until seeing old vegeta and yamcha support. I think designing around intense strengths and weaknesses makes the learning experience more intuitive. When you hear something is OP, you look at it and asks why.

[@chrisd2597]

That is exactly how I learned dbfz / fighting games too. I got into the FGC because of dbfz and learned fighting game mechanic from all those Bardock shenanigans. So THANK YOU BARDOCK ! ! !

[@GalacticAW]

Chris D same same 👀

[@MoldMonkey93]

Technically this is why SFII took off and people got better and invested in the genre in the first place.

[@jlwilliams3rd]

Damn LK, Dragonball Fighterz is basically like my first fighting game I put a lot of hours into. I never even thought about game the movement mechanics and how they actually made it more easier . Well said and great points.

[@simons9264]

Autocombos are scrubby but they’re not that bad What’s bad is the side autocorrect that it has

[@nchanyal]

That and auto combos that have built in high low mix-ups such as blue goku.

[@Brainboxreview]

Sike U Thought yeah but the overhead is slow as hell. You can literally down heavy Gogeta’s last part of his auto combo

[@nchanyal]

@@Brainboxreview True but try blocking them in 8 to 12 frame delay. Literally a 50-50

[@nutbutton7678]

Sike U Thought Fr when it’s like that I can never react to the overhead

[@Dr3am9553]

@@nchanyal why would be playing in 8-12 buffer rofll

[@icycjanto]

That lordknight emote caught me mad off guard

[@AaronRotenberg]

Maximilian opened his latest video on Strive with "Unga, and I cannot stress enough, Bunga." And that makes sense. All of the points you talk about-huge damage from tiny confirms, bad anti-air options, inability to punish imprecise movement-fall under the general category of encouraging sloppy offense and weakening defense. And new players of a game love that because overwhelming pressure is *fun*. Being able to get in and beat your face on the controller and get rewarded for it is *fun*. But it also risks making the game shallow. The ideal game would be fun for new players while still having depth for expert players. Somewhere in between DBFZ super dash and classic Street Fighter fireball wars, there is a balance...

[@TheeFungUsAmongUs]

Autocombos in fighting games themselves arent bad, its just this particular case in DBFZ where some are obviously waaaay better than others. The damage buff it gets if a hit is whiffed( imo it shouldnt even come out on whiff at all) , the range, and the side switch/auto correct. Auto combos should be used as a stepping stone to ease new players into fighting games who dont have the execution and muscle memory yet and to incentivize them to learn actual combos. But that is not the case instead auto combos are legitimately a very strong tool for alot of characters especially in a very fast paced,aggressive, and sometimes chaotic game like dbfz where in a scramble situation its much easier and safer to just mash L.

[@egrassa1480]

Autocombos don't help new players learn combos. Its either everyone uses auto combos in their combos cuz they are effective, or only newbies use them, so they can forget about learning real combos. Idk how mashing one button helps you to learn an actual combo. TL:DR Autocombos is a shit tool to help newbies learn the game, making learning combos fun by mini games in tutorial or some other way is much more effective.

[@djsir901]

Amen... Amen!!

[@masonbrik86]

Great analysis. If Maximilian watched these he'd reference your channel a lot. The information is concise and derivative. Exactly what you need in the modern fighting game era.

[@NoblesseObligedCP]

I just want to say LK I miss the claps at the begining of the videos man. It was your thing I remember from when I first started watching you. #bringbacktheclap

[@zieg_fgc]

NoblesseObliged he did in this video what do you mean lol

[@NoblesseObligedCP]

@@zieg_fgc No he did he use to start with a clap then said whats going on today everyone its lk here

[@zieg_fgc]

@@NoblesseObligedCP my bad i thought you meant at the end of the vid

[@deanblue5077]

Just playing dragon ball has made me better being able to see everything and reacting to stuff and this game make games like mortal kombat seem slow

[@stevea1708]

I tried to go from dbfz to mk and I feel like I'm walking underwater with 2 ton weights on my feet

[@majktblk9249]

I thought I was the only one, plus the strict timing of MK's Juggle combos r really not fun. Lol try going from FighterZ to Brawlhalla. That is going from Neutral/Combo Overload to Nuetral/Two or Three hit combos lol.

[@majktblk9249]

So I remember playing fighting games like SF, MvC, MK but it was only until FighterZ that I became intrigued by the FGC and FGs as an whole. I learned about Evo, Yipes, Sonic Fox, Ninja Killa, Subatomic Sables, ApologyMan. Bro, I could go on and on but to say less, I appreciate you for just being you. Hopefully the more I learn, I can hopefully best you in an FighterZ match lol. One day.

[@rick2402]

back at it AGAIN...with ANOTHER video??

[@Brynhildrify]

This is low...

[@SmoothTerumi]

They made jumping a lot stronger in SFV, at least by SF standards

[@MoldMonkey93]

I think what truly makes a fighting game easier is how soon can it get people to start playing with intentionality. When that happens, people are more willing to learn the situations and OP strats accordingly. If I'm too worried about how this game doesn't do the same thing as this game when it comes to say AAs or hit confirms. I'm going to feel like my intelligence is insulted from the previous knowledge I do have. Not much playstyles. People don't want to have to, "relearn" information. What they don't realize is that all they're doing is executing it differently. This explains the homogeneous feeling FGs are getting now. Another thing is to be able to condition your opponent. If there's too many options in a game, it becomes harder to condition someone because they can do multiple things to escape it. I generally like 3D fighters more because I've played them more and am high level in VF. Also, played tournaments for it and DoA. I can learn other 3D games faster but there's another reason. Compared to 2D games in which people can be untouchable due to options, this happens with experience but mainly in 3D games, no matter how good your opponent is, you always feel as though you're doing SOMETHING. Planting a mid, here, a low there, meaty here because you know you got a knock down and your options aren't overtly complicated compared to say DBFZ because you need to learn blockstrings to feel like you, "get" it. You feel competent sooner in 3D games in terms of decision making and execution. Now it just feels like getting better happens naturally and your overall decisions and intelligence is accounted for instead of something being barred from you because you couldn't understand one or two concepts. You FEEL your weakness. It is due to less varied playstyles in 3D games that can get people on the same footing early on. Execution should be a choice, be it harder or easier. Not overall defining a game. This also explains why SF players will never truly accept Anime games. They feel as though, the difficulty is arbitrary. It's a barrier that's preventing them from getting to the opponents head that you know is weak or may be weaker than you mentally. People can hide behind execution, it's true. I say this as someone who has made executional feats.

[@GeorgeMarks444]

First step to watching an LK vid: MAX VOLUME

[@gg.no.re.]

Auto combos will never fix this issue. Nobody feels good mashing one button even if it shows something cool on screen. People want to feel like they’re good at the game, not have the game pat them on the back for doing nothing.

[@chanceofbliss8175]

Unfortunately, while this is true for many, a lotta people clearly dont care that much, as evident with the plethora of teen gohan mashers online lol

[@ukyorulz]

I started a fighting game local out of nothing in my area, and auto-combos were the only reason most of the people gave DBFZ a chance. This local has been running for about 1.5 years now and it's been far more successful than my earlier attempts with Skullgirls, Tekken, Street Fighter, and Guilty Gear. None of this would have been possible without auto-combos being in the game as a legitimate component of the gameplay. I've tried to get locals started with other games that had autos but those never lasted because the autos were simply terrible. DBFZ gets autos mostly right because they are good, but not optimal. There is room to grow, but a beginner is not completely gimped at least in terms of basic damage output.

[@Time2GoHam1995]

There’s another way that devs make fighting games easier. They make locking the defender down after post neutral situations more difficult. I’m surprised that you didn’t mention it because it’s seen in such an extreme amount in DBFZ. The classic “I got the hit, got the knockdown then I got hit because I guessed wrong on knockdown RPS”. DBFZ is the obvious example of the variable tech timings, multiple ways to tech, reflect, etc. These options make it easier for the defender because they aren’t forced to just block it out. This makes it so that newer players get mauled less often by players with more experienced players. This is seen in Strive to a much lesser extent with hard knockdowns becoming less frequent.

[@LordKnightfgc]

I didn't mention this because I don't really think it is that extreme. Players solve this point over time.

[@Time2GoHam1995]

LordKnight How is it solved in DBFZ since snap is gone?

[@LordKnightfgc]

S1 - hard kd and level 3 S2 - GT, snap S3 - we dunno yet, a lot of prior developments took at least 6 months

[@Time2GoHam1995]

LordKnight Good point, I look forward to seeing what the lab monsters come up with this season.

[@chasewilliams2635]

Best video that I have seen on this topic. Well done.

[@styckykeys2200]

While we're talking about jumping in being really strong, it's kinda weird that air normals got no landing lag in Fighterz. You can block in the air, and you can throw a projectile to call out anti-airs. Being in the air gives you lagless moves that are + on block and full combo on hit, with the only downside being that there are moves that are invincible to SOME of your air attacks. Seems like an uneven trade, and so you see people constantly jumping and floating around in neutral. Seriously it's crazy how much people jump in this game.

[@tobebuilds]

The buffer in FighterZ is much longer than I realized. I would always rush out buttons, and never be able to get enough damage. Turns out I was just going way too fast.

[@tharris3600]

Man..I feel like I've gotten better at jumping into fighting games nowadays (yes, they are "easier" nowadays). As much as I wanna play DBFZ...I can never gel with it. I think I value grounded play and such more than combo heavy stuff

[@drnolon]

Thats cool man. You do you. One of the other comments mentioned how, I think he mentioned MK11 feels slow now. It's just preference. As long as you're enjoying the game.

[@bg-cc6hn]

So what I got from this is that DBFZ is baby's first fighting game and since I still suck at that I got problems 😂 Great content as always LK! And the Twitch emote!!!

[@ATLRiot_]

I honestly feel I’m the only noob that didn’t autocombo when I got this. I found out this game had autocombos and was like “hell nah I’m not doing that” and went straight to youtube. I have played other fighting games but not at the level I play DBFZ. And let me tell you I’m dogshit at all the other fighting games unless maybe it’s other anime 3D arena fighters and UFC cause I’m pretty nice at that. For a guy that has played the other big fighting games hella casually and plays this and can do corner combos, play decent neutral, learned numb pad notation quick, and a whole lot of other shit, if you want to play this game at a higher level I highly encourage you to go for and don’t get discouraged. If my friends and I can do it, then goddamn it you can too.

[@Lanzetsu]

The way to add auto-combos is the Gatling they removed in Strive or the AutoCombo in Granblue where you NEED to be close to the opponent to trigger it, and TBH I think it should be done only if you hit them from the start AND should do less damage than a manually executed combo, as in Granblue, that is why Granblue to me is one of the best evolution in fighting games right now.

[@sinshenlong]

what you described is exactly how it is in persona

[@Goku0467]

i only see fear to lose to a newbie player in your text KEKW

[@MoldMonkey93]

Evolution by devolution is more like it. Game is fine to start people off in fighters but will only harm them going forward with more traditional and more unforgiving fighters.

[@Lanzetsu]

​@@Goku0467 Fear? To lose in a game? Are you real bro? Did the quarantine burn your brain? I said that because it feels stupidly easy and even I won games like that to people better than me by simply mashing (and specially with Bardock) in any scramble situation. We are talking about game mechancs and improve fighting games, not some shitty ego you care about kid. In Guilty Gear at least we had gatlings which is a better approach, in GranBlue you need to actually hit them close, that is a better design, I could talk about MK but it is a whole different story since they have specific strings for each character.

[@atipetres1404]

My man got that Animal Crossing music on in the background.

[@SH4D0WBattousai]

tbh my issue with dbfz was how stupidly opimized auto mixups were in addition to like no defensive mechanics at all. Even today whenever I see someone get out of shit they basically went for a read, either deflecting or throwing out spark or some reversal move (which then costs spark if you want to hitconfirm it). Reflect was even dogshit at least back when I played because the outcome wasnt consistent at all; sometimes you couldnt punish, and sometimes not even get out of the corner or stop the blockstrings in any way, so it basically was a high risk/little to no reward tool. Maybe a lot of things have changed now but when I tried it at launch I was like serioulsy I'd rather play blazblue for degenerate shit and 0 defense at least in that game the ridiculous offense takes execution skill.

[@Zackcy]

LK finally using the like + sub tech

[@ATPlays]

Nice analysis LK

[@anggakarapreviandana2877]

I had to watch this because there's a Arcsys hater who rant about how their newer games is easier (Or older complex characters and games are better) in every Guilty Gear Strive announcement video on KZbin.

[@chkmte1304]

That animal crossing in the bg tho

[@MageKirby]

I hear your and also saw your twit trying to bring together some really smart people about this topic. To be honest, I feel like fighting game devs are going about trying to get new players in the wrong way. At this point, they have done so much to make the games accessible to a lot of people. Which is great. But when you go around reddit and I see people complaining that they are new players and losing all their matches and find the game frustrating, I don't think the problem is that the game needs even MORE accessibility and a 12 year curriculum created by the devs to help new players become top players. I think Sajam at one point hit this during his rant after TI that he never pursued because he was advocating more for netcode is a reason for people to constantly return to the game. Fighting games right now have zero reason to turn on daily and play besides your own interest in the gameplay. Meanwhile I find myself and A LOT of gamers that tune into shitty games that have systems that rewire your brain into thinking you HAVE TO turn that game on everyday even if the game itself is dogshit. I think most fighting games that our community highlights are pretty good games. And it would benefit a lot from devs borrowing even a little bit from other genres to make people want to turn their game on daily will really increase the player base. And if it does, then we can have more players of all play levels get matched properly and grow at their pace. When I look at bigger games scenes real new players arent complaining like this because they have enough new players to match together and build up their skill. So as much as I appreciate all the work that is put into making the game accessible, I think a lot of that has been done and devs need to really focus on catching up to other games in terms of player retention.

[@kareemmeqbel2813]

Good video

[@sladejosephwilson2300]

The only game that I see myself never buying. Not because of the simplified commands or supers. But what turned off was the auto correct combo in this game. Auto combos aren't bad but the ones in fighterz are bullshit. There are better options out there.

[@wquitw0727]

fighting games getting easier was good and bad at the same time more casuals spent time,but at the same time competitive is a joke,so the community grew,however the games became shallow the reason ofc was marketing,the majority wouldnt spend money on a complex game they have no patience to learn,or if they did once,they wouldnt buy subsequent titles blazblue,guilty,gear,kof are probably the hardest franchises,and even those in their latest titles have become kinda more forgiving in execution p.s. greatest joke on that matter is when they say tekken 7 is hard,there was even an article on a site ranking it #1 in hardest fighting games,above guilty gear,above blazblue,above street fighter..i then realised once more that there are so many clowns out there overrating titles just because they re popular

[@iwatchDVDsonXbox360]

From what you've said it seems like they want to make offence stronger not game easier. I don't really sure why you torture yourself with ArcSys, their games almost always tried to buff offence. I think you should just switched to Tekken, Street Fighter, maybe Samurai Shodown. I feel like those 3 were made with people like you in mind. I especially recommend Tekken, it's the most chill fighting game ever in my opinion, defence there is extremely strong, throws are weak to the point that they almost not exist (so there is no need to worry about grapplers), girls are good looking (you seem to like this kind of stuff).

[@heavymetalmixer91]

Funny that antiairs being weaker is better for new players, but they don't consider new players trying to antiair, so there's an unbalance in that situation.

[@danwoods8195]

I have no problems with auto-combos because it teaches new players how to block simple strings...I have a problem with dying to two Potemkin throws....That's just bullshit imo...Still buying strive....but not happy rn.

[@AdeptusForge]

A part of it is more focused around game designer preferences too. Allowing players to block grounded moves without in the air may not be intended to make movement easier/harder, but instead be a part of the gameplay that the designers want to focus on or not. Something I wish that DBFZ did with its design space was make the transition between air and ground more seamless, as it was in the show. Have neutral that takes place while both parties are flying that is equivalent to (but not identical to) grounded neutral. POKKEN tried to do this and failed miserably, because it changed how moves worked based on how the "mode" you were in, effectively making it so you had to learn 2 fighting games instead of a cohesive whole. DBFZ could have been so much more on the whole if they were willing to push the envelope design-wise.

[@zamoranollanosjulian6439]

Can u do a neutro video of dbfz?

[@AbsolutelyAbsurDDD]

these changes are being made because casuals are more profitable than competitive players. it's the sad truth

[@19Cobre]

Factssss

[@just4real72]

Tklkscumbag in the corner lol

[@dimex3362]

TOTALLY DISAGREE that high damage makes games easier. it depends on your perspective. try beating a great player at ST. even with high ass damage it just wont happen. high damage means fewer mistakes needed to lose... meaning you have to make fewer mistakes, meaning you need to be a better player... this is pretty obvious. lower damage means you can block with your face and still win if your opponent simply played worse than you. also, more opportunities to go into full combo simply means more things you have to not be hit by to keep from making a mistake, which also means you need to be a better player in general. buuut, like I said, it depends on perspective. strong tick throw game forces good neutral because if yiu lose, you get thrown. weak tick throw game does the opposite. tick throws in ST are super strong, but loop throws (throw loops) are too strong...but I digress. easy execution doesn't make a game easy, so easy execution is fine. but making offense harder and defense easier (like in dbfz where mixups are pretty bad) makes it easier for the weaker player because they can lose neutral, but still come out of the offense having taken no damage. and I think we can all agree that the player that wins neutral more often can be considered among all other things, to be the better player. devs are combatting this by compensating for worse players by making mixups more tame and by making damage lower whichj makes losing neutral less of an issue. the first guy to lose neutral in ST/SG/mvc3 usually loses the match. and these are all considered some of the hardest games to play out there. the only supere duper high level expert game that can be considered lowish damage is mvc2. but that game is the greatest hppy accident ever and the damage is only low in poking scenarios. if you get combod that shit is going to hurt.

[@alexisaacs5486]

Competitive games in general gets easier

[@irvintang2751]

Dbfz is easy until they have to play goichi.

[@therealdevo7894]

You know... this really explains why I prefer the of P4A over Ultimax. Although I can’t always articulate why I prefer certain games over others, I can just feel when developers change certain properties in games over time, which can appeal to me or not. I tried to get into BBCT and DBFZ but I just couldn’t. I like the games, but I don’t want to play them for very long. So I just end up prefer other games like Melty Blood, Under Night, Blazblue, VSav, Skullgirls, GGXXACPR and such. I just prefer earning my wins, which makes it more fun for me than just simplifying the mechanics. I think French Bread has the correct idea when it comes to appealing to new audiences. Their games are easy to pick up, but to get good, you really have to master the mechanics and the movement in those games. Idk. I just don’t like how Arcsys has been changing their games as of late.

[@BDDterror]

Fighting games are easier for sure and I think it started with sf4

[@MoldMonkey93]

But it didn't end with SF4. Any fighting game, pre-SF4 and Pre-SFV still respected execution and dedication over playing something because it's trendy. Every new sequel has dumbed down particular thought processes and went against legacy. Even something as simple as releasing too many new characters and changing old characters to completely new ones that are unrecognizable almost in SFV did more harm than good. Then you have no meterless DPs which in turn creates a hand hold in terms of when to pressure when someone has no meter. The stun gauge dictates the match too much unlike 3S. Tekken and DoA had their Oki neutered and added 2D mechanics to appeal to SF players since people had dismay with SF. As someone who is mostly SF and VF, I despise that our differing sub-genres are becoming too homogeneous to one another. Soul Calibur also reduced Ringout potential. It's even harder to intentionally ring yourself out by jumping lol On video Okobu admitted to changing w/e whiners whined about. They're not making fighting games for people who want to dedicate themselves anymore. They want them to be trendy for a quick buck whilst ignoring serious issues like netcode, bugs and Bad DLC practices they expect you to buy season pass w/o knowing what's in it nowadays.

[@christianw935]

Just wish they would delete sd.

[@NinjaGuyDan_]

I often wonder what the game would be like if you couldn't sd in neutral/ could only sd in combos

[@LordKnightfgc]

It would be a zone heavy game and people would complain about that. SD is one of the core mechanics of the game.

[@maxrusty3596]

@@LordKnightfgc Yea but its also fighterz biggest problem neutral is played with the constant threat of not only super dash but amiguous super dashes at wierd angles taking advantage of its broken properties when done right above the opponent some decent players play neutral specifically waiting for that moment and its just sooo lame. Also guilty gear strive is too simple and that means a lot of different things but mainly the hit stun and arc sys constant need to destroy fundamentals of fighting games that people love ie corner pressure, gatlings, air juggles which sadly nobody is mentioning which sucks cuz thats another reason strive is lame. Also just huge damage and lack of combo variety and combo length. To me its quite clear what market they r chasing doing this and its sad to see cuz it hurts real fans.

[@christianw935]

@@LordKnightfgc yeah i didn't even think about that. Characters like frieza and broly would be ridiculous.

[@TOF2485]

Chip damage is needed.

[@19Cobre]

Urgently.

[@doncinati7644]

Why isn't this top comment.

[@rockinrom1524]

I think developers need to focus on making the game easy to pick up and understand while having room to grow for a high skill ceiling. Take basketball, it can be explained in easily in 10mins and you can start enjoying it faster because you get the idea so easily. However, there's such a huge gap from picking it up and nba that it leaves room to grow. I think they should add basic guides on how this character should win or what the goal of the character while playing. Often they give us universal tutorials but I think applying it to characters is the problem. Like you learned can block in the air but the character you picked shouldn't be in the air anyway because they have poor air options but you didnt know that. Let's use the basketball analogy again going through the tutorial would be like a coach teaching you all 5 positions but now you confused since there's so much info in your head but you dont know how to apply. Instead, he teaches you the basics of this position on offense and defense and now you only got to worry about two things but your level of play increases because you concentrating on this only. Then you can learn the nuances of this position and move on to the next position with the skills you learned. Only the basics though if the person wants to reach the next level with the character they either gotta learn from trial and error or checkout better players.

[@athlonzero]

Auto combo doesn't matter to me actually. I'm more concern with the motion controls hate doing 632146 in a controller. This makes me feel that the game has an advantage playing it in stick

[@Billybobber47]

whats up with vid quality lately?

[@lordknuxs]

123 views nice

[@IJR1019]

Hey

[@ukyorulz]

"When jumping is bad and you don't like it, you are a noob and need to git gud. When jumping is good and I don't like it, the game is obnoxious and dumbed down."

[@BDDterror]

Wrong

[@Swoldridge]

LK. Gonna keep it real with you. This video is pretty bad with the logic behind some of your reasoning.

[@sampletext02]

>Says logic is bad >Doesnt explain why at all Big brain tech

[@Swoldridge]

@@sampletext02 don't feel like writing an essay just to reply to a video. I don't have to explain myself. It's just feedback.

[@dudethisusername7285]

@@Swoldridge feedback isn't helpful if you don't explain why you think it's bad :)

[@Swoldridge]

@@dudethisusername7285 like I said to someone else. I don't feel like writing an essay to explain. Didn't say he was stupid or attack his character.

[@Eltanin]

word of advice: Please as much as possible avoid using the stock youtuber intro phrase of "Hey it's ______ back at it again with another _______" It turns a lot of people off from watching the rest of the video myself included.

[@streetfighte6]

the joy of fighting game is okizeme, frame traps, not execution

[@andrewgrime8389]

The FGC needs to grow the hell up and stop acting like a bunch of children. It's really funny and sad at the same time. You play video games. Calm down.

[@andrewgrime8389]

@The nobody shit isn't fucking funny Wat?

[@andrewgrime8389]

@The nobody shit isn't fucking funny Caring and whining are two different things.

[@andrewgrime8389]

@The nobody shit isn't fucking funny Drinking cheap beer while watching other people play sports?? Oh, yes, of course. The oldest argument Esporters use. People who cry about fighting games and people who cry about people crying about video games are the same fucking group of idiots.