The Truth About Incels | Ash Sarkar meets William Costello

[@markpostgate2551]

"Unwanted celibacy predicts misogynistic attitudes" is paraphrased by Jim Morrison as "women seem wicked when you're unwanted" in People Are Strange.

[@michaela8194]

Good observation 👍

[@botanicalitus4194]

But thats a problem in and of itself. Women shouldnt have to feel coerced into entering relationships just to avoid misogynistic vioIence. Besides we dont see this same level of toxic ideology towards the opposite gender amongst femceIs

[@ftftyffghfvghfcht6701]

that doesnt account for the different ways that men and women behave. women often flirt for fun/(their ego). and then tell men they have no interest. at least men are more forthright. this whole video seemed like very ridiculous pseudo science

[@Padraigp]

​@@ftftyffghfvghfcht6701ah men flirt too. Flirting and saying no is a very good way to test if a man is going to throw a tantrum when he doesn't get his way. Which is an important thing to eliminate before you mate with a male. Tells you a lot about whether you want to choose a man as a mate by how he responds to something like that. Also when men consider being spoken to as flirting it can go to the point where you can't even talk to a guy because he thinks that entitles him to more. Men are not very forthright at all although they think they are they don't respond well to female forthrightness at all. Men tend to make assumptions and adapt their words and behaviour according to a supposition such as she will want X so i will do x she will expect y. She will likely be x way so they're often appraising things internally rather than asking a forthright question such as are you flirting with me?

[@ftftyffghfvghfcht6701]

@@Padraigp no youve misunderstood me. i knew you'd write 'men do too'. everyone flirts. im not talking about in appropriate circumstances. im talking about in everyday life. women do it for a kick. men dont do it if anything bcos most of them cant. bcos theres no male equivalent of makeup. youve also ignored the fact that men dont wear lingerie and walk around semi naked. i appreciate that its not politically correct to acknowledge that but it obviously has an impact on perception with male female pair bonding.

[@smarie3874]

“Women would rather be alone than settle for less than what they want.” Yes, because if we choose unwisely it’s a serious safety hazard! Better to be alone than injured, traumatized or dead.

[@KateLate____]

No way, heaps of women settle. Because some want children mroe than they want an ideal partner.

[@dianadoraen7864]

​@@KateLate____ Which is not a smart thing to do. It's one thing to get away by herself, and another if you have kids

[@KateLate____]

​@@dianadoraen7864 I think there is a large gap between being in a mildly disappointing relationship (ie settling for less than what they want) and intentionally dating a killer. Most people don't know they're getting into a relationship with a violent person until it's too late. Many men aren't violent but are still majorly disappointing in many areas.

[@frogelpe9871]

oh yes, because guys like Richard Ramirez never found a partner, right? And guys below 6ft are so menacing and a huuuuge safety hazard towards their female partners, right?

[@xbfdx988]

Actual percentage of women in the West liked by spouses is likely a fraction of a percent. Not likely to be a motivator for most women

[@matthewcline3088]

something that also gets maligned is the fact that all social interaction, but especially dating, is not an innate skill everyone is born with, it’s a learned skill like anything else. it took me doing the uncomfortable thing and forcing myself to go out and talk to people to get good at it. but i also didn’t inhabit a community that actively denigrates any attempt at growth, so it’s easy for me to say “you just need to practice!”

[@skylinefever]

Exactly. We never see the practice grounds.

[@beeftestosterone4840]

Many of these guys have tried to get out there and “practice”, but have horrific experiences. If you’re not tall or good looking, most women do not want you to talk to them.

[@happinesstan]

a learned skill that changes the moment you pass your training.

[@paramidge8935]

@@beeftestosterone4840 Errant nonsense - humour, wit and empathy - these are what many people require in a partner. It is the self obsessed inability to 'play' that puts women off. If a bloke can't read the cues, I can see that it makes things tough - but for heaven's sake don't think that the panacea to social awkwardness is to call yourself an 'Incel' and join some inadequate and unfulfilling chat room. That would be to concretise a 'self fulfilling prophecy' and is a failure that could lead to an inverse and unpleasant misogyny.

[@LondonMoneyCashEnterprise]

@@paramidge8935what is the solution to social awkwardness then, cause I’ve made a lot of progress from being socially awkward as a teen yet I still not at the stage where I can attract much of anything

[@kalithrall]

I am fairly certain that 'kindness' never led to a right swipe. Online dating is the new dating, and love it or loathe it, being physically attractive is the first barrier. Y'all can be as kind as fuck only after crossing that bar.

[@Shankar-Bhaskar]

Precisely!!

[@briannyob7799]

Exactly. It's what inside that counts after you get past the looks.

[@worldadventuretravel]

Then don't date online.

[@Alaskan-Armadillo]

The problem as they mentioned though is that these apps aren't sustainable at all. It's sad because of how dating apps fuck over everyone where women face misogyny, trans people face transphobia, and men of colour face racism. It's sad because I know I am attractive but these app turn dating into a one dimensional game.

[@contracthit9839]

Quite common with the academics their boots are not on the ground and their out of touch with realty..

[@tancreddehauteville764]

The problem is that in the internet age we more lonely than ever. People cannot socialise any more because there is no 'third place' any more, in addition to home and work. In fact, with more people working from home than ever, people now only have 'one place' in their lives, the home. Not surprising that anxiety and depression are increasing.

[@benfisher1376]

Plus, we can no longer leave work in the workplace. It's on our phones etc

[@felixthecat2786]

I think young people are genuinely terrified to put themselves out there. It's easier to withdraw and self isolate than it is to join a hiking group and try to make friends or to go to a local mixer and meet people.

[@scaboi]

@@felixthecat2786 With all the bullying, rejections, prejudice , judging etc going on out there, I don't blame young people at all for not going out.

[@switzjon8405]

It's telling us to eliminate everything and everyone.

[@switzjon8405]

@@benfisher1376 That's why I'm anti work from home. I come to my sanctuary to leave the monotony like bring it with me.

[@TedThomasTT]

This video proves you shouldn't be allowed to leave a comment unless you've watched at least half the video.

[@trevfindley]

Really wish I hadn't started reading this comment section. Some of it's so deranged...

[@steelreserve9050]

Times to valuable

[@georgecisneros5281]

TL;DW

[@aldoushuxley5953]

Weird. Ofc I don't know what it was like at first, but rn all comments I can see are really nice

[@contracthit9839]

It only takes 5 minutes to see he peddles male bashing feminist narratives..

[@rjflores438]

It is a complete misnomer to equate incels to far right and white in ethnicity, this runs the gamut of all socio economic and racial lines.

[@j.d.s.8132]

Statistics say 50% white, 50% ethnice, which is crazy for western countries. People that say we are all racists and looksit are probably the same ones that filter for 6ft on dating apps.

[@petermatthews7826]

At the same time, the Far Left and the centre isn't actively recruiting incels, and incel spaces don't preach any ideology like they do Far Right ones.

[@Aisha_Davis]

@@emissary_of_aldebaranYou’re like to be an incel if you’re under 6ft. White men are 5’9.

[@Celandines]

Not really. The manosphere tends to overlap a fair bit.

[@Stoddardian]

@@Aisha_Davis What? I'm 5 foot 7 and I'm doing fine with women. Not every man under 6 foot is an incel. Jesus Christ.

[@andheydsj]

Can we please just not overlook the economic and cultural conditions of today. (From the UK perspective), Many pubs, clubs, centres for meeting people, connecting, being outside your comfort zones have been closed down, whether you're in the camp of this is deliberate or whether the young are just genuinely wanting more healthier lifestyles, we've pushed all of the "real world" stuff online, and online is the most toxic place you can be now. (I get the hypocrisy of me saying this while online, but I stand by it). Ash is 100% right to call out banning dating ups. The entire societal model which is a for profit system which incentivises people/companies to extract as much profit from the world as humanly possible, in part thanks to tech has now allowed us to start harvesting up human emotion, connection and so on which is just a sick model that is destined to failure (I hope).

[@Fredreegz]

Right? I'm in a relationship (met on Hinge), but there is no way on earth I would ever go up to a woman in real life. Not because I fear rejection (I have been rejected and dumped so many times I now consider myself an expert on the experience), but because I hear so many women sharing their disgust and fear at being approached by men. The idea of hurting a woman, or making her feel uncomfortable is horrifying to me. And to have an entire room of people witness me making a woman feel uncomfortable because I tried to strike up a conversation with her would be mortifying.

[@andheydsj]

@@Fredreegz I'm not referring to going in cold as it were, what I mean is, because bars and clubs and most forms of social life are rapidly disappearing and going online you're radically reducing the chances of even being out with friends and just getting chatting with other groups and intermingling. I was alone after a previous relationship for about 5 years, I genuinely started to believe it wouldn't ever happen for me again. But one day while at a music festival with some friends, a friend of one of my friends came along and we just hit it off and we've been so happy together since. I tried the Apps, and like Ash said, I find them insincere, fake and immoral tbh I'm not saying it can't/won't work for others. More power to you if you did make it work. I just don't see this as a viable long term thing without totally destroying maybe some of the only "truth" parts of the human experience... (Love) in it's purest expression.

[@johnstallings4049]

Excellent point! It seems to me that the online trends are monetizing EvERYTHING now, including death! The old adage "Profit Over People' has seemingly been supersized to "Profit Over Planet AND People!" 😶

[@bexiboo1981]

Totally agree, also, talking about relationships as a transaction is also a massive turn off for me personally. Yeah I suppose you can view it in that way if you are being clinical but I wouldn’t touch someone with a ten foot barge pole if they talked about relationships in those terms.

[@benday1218]

yeah, this is being described as 'the death or 3rd spaces' outside of home and work.

[@fergusmurphy8310]

Great guest and interview. I particularly appreciated the combination of a scientific and humane perspective on incels from William.

[@federicobizzarricadorin9430]

Very true comment and very happy to be the 69th like

[@robinfox4440]

He was a wonderful guest. I'm not so sold on her interview. She seemed adamant to want to change the subject to revolve around her ideology and her opinions at every opportunity.

[@sameerdodger]

@@robinfox4440 Completely disagree. I come from where Ash was speaking (especially in regards to dating apps), but it allowed William to be challenged and offer his insight on Ash's beliefs. Which in turn made me question my own and see things from a different perspective. Something that wouldn't have happened if Ash just sat there and nodded along to everything William said. It's called a dialogue, you should try it some time.

[@drjordan5706]

@@sameerdodger People like Robin refuse to let their ideas challenged, those like him tend to speak a lot to the mirror

[@Steve-kb8mz]

A very small study was conducted in the US where 63.6% of self-described InCels were White & Hispanic (compared to 78.2% of the US population) and 44.7% were left-wing (compared to 38.9% right-wing) so the idea that this is a Fascistic subculture seems like wishful thinking.

[@kerrymackenzie911]

I'd be very curious to know how they determined the participants' place on the political spectrum. Many people are not very good at correctly identifying this. As an example, people will deny someone like Jordan Peterson is right wing (a figure popular among incels) when he clearly is very far right.

[@steven-el3sw]

@@kerrymackenzie911 he is not far right don't be ridiculous.

[@skylinefever]

I could be called leftist because I say let drugs be legal. I could be called right wing because I say can't feed em don't breed em needs to be a law.

[@Josh-sz8ip]

​@@kerrymackenzie911Jordan Peterson is near the centre. Someone far right would be Jared Taylor or Nick Fuentes. You're probably far left if Jordan Peterson looks far right.

[@grahamyoung3433]

@@Josh-sz8ip If you think diagnosing Peterson as being on the far right makes you far left you're probably on the far right.

[@adamgrass3547]

This is one of the most captivating conversations I've heard in a long while. You both did so well, thank you.

[@falonemoonb0175]

Thank you for the video/interview. 40+ year old man. Never had an actual relationship (short/long term). Never kissed. Never had any physical sexual experience. At most, have held hands (more than 10 years ago). Work full time in fairly comfortable job (non managerial) and look ok (but skinny). Regular exercises for health reason. From what I can tell, probably biggest turn off for most women is that I live at home with the folks and no friends, other than work colleagues. Have tried dating apps, but like Ash - feels too cold and "commodifying" (if that's a way to describe it). Plus my heavy anxiety just gets in the way. Although, I'm not totally against it (apps) - just not for me for now. It did work for me a long time ago, in terms of meeting someone and going out. It would be nice to be in a long term relationship, but at the same time I sometimes just want to, you know - have some fun (if you know what I mean). Unfortunately, I can't do that. I don't have friends to meet others and I cannot just go to a club or bar. It does terrify me when my folks are no longer around.

[@wackypeace1135]

What causes you anxiety?

[@mbele3]

It seems you’ve put some thought into it and are aware of some of the things contributing to it. Have you been to therapy or considered it?

[@falonemoonb0175]

@@wackypeace1135 I'm not really sure. Could be from my upbringing. Could be from other incidents/experiences that I didn't know how to deal with during my younger years. Some people just don't have that part of themselves developed properly, so the cycle of fear builds into something else. It's something I've lived with for a long time that I never really thought about where it came from originally. I remember trying to casually run a small meet up group for people with society anxiety. Ironically, at some point it was affecting me and I couldn't deal with it.

[@falonemoonb0175]

@@mbele3 Yes, it's been on my mind for a while. I have done some therapy/counselling a while back and would like to try again, but it's quite expensive where we are. I have to also consider some serious life changes or else it would be quite wasteful in these sessions. It feels like I'm stuck - unable to move forward, but also not wanting the current situation. I do know that fear is there playing its part in keeping me suspended in a sense.

[@petegoestubular]

What the hell. Try pure MDMA. Start small. And like he said, there should be a normalisation of what you are living, because it's very common. Especially in Korea apparently. All the best.

[@asfcboys6317]

When I was young I couldn't get a girlfriend, I now realise I lacked social skills and self confidence, circumstances in my childhood contributed to the problem, although I was never misogynistic. When I was in my late twenty's I assumed I wouldn't find a partner, back then there was no social media, no term of "incels", if there was I sometimes wonder about the path I may have ended going down. I eventually found someone which I'm happy with, although later in life.

[@RossKempOnYourMum01]

How did you improve your social skills

[@asfcboys6317]

@@RossKempOnYourMum01 my life improved as I got older and more life experiences and my confidence improved.

[@RossKempOnYourMum01]

@@asfcboys6317 so complete passivity anf waiting for it to get better

[@LoskutovAV]

Same for me. In my early twenties I was anxious and start to think that I will never have a romantic partner, although I had female friends and was not afraid of women, just don't know how to date. I decided that I will live my life helping others (I am pediatrician, now trying to become a neurologist) and enjoying books, lonely walks and gaming. And after two months after this decision, when I don't look for a partner, one of my female friends tell that she is wanna go out with me. Now we are 6 years together and almost 4 years married 😅

[@James_36]

@@asfcboys6317 you didnt answer his question

[@betrousaltaweel]

It’s a result of how human interactions have moved away from “real life” and into virtual/online spaces. People have fewer friends than in previous decades and they hang out with those friends much less than in previous decades. Most young people regardless of gender or orientation have little to no hobbies. Most young people spend their days at work and their free time on the internet - KZbin, Instagram, Netflix, gaming etc

[@ivan5595]

Social media along with these dating apps should be banned. Smartphones have ruined the society after 2012

[@paigemprice]

I met my husband online, but playing a text only game, we fell in love based on communication not photos. We've been married almost 20 years now

[@tuckerbugeater]

@@paigemprice you could be married to a bot

[@yurigansmith]

@@tuckerbugeater I suspect they've met in real life meanwhile.

[@goaheadmakemyday7126]

@@paigempriceEasy being a woman

[@JohnJones-do3nb]

Further proof that Michael Fassbender is both multitalented and ageing incredibly well

[@dazpatreg]

Damnit you beat me to it!

[@jonathanbailey1597]

😂😂😂😂😂 Brilliant!!

[@funglegunk]

LOL he sounds exactly like him doesn't he

[@annasimmers9549]

😂😂😂

[@aries6776]

He is also from West Ireland!

[@eamonbutler6369]

As an old incel myself I find Ash pretty desirable. This does not make me hate her but I find her smugness and ‘us and them attitude’ pretty hateful. She totally lacks any compassion or empathy for the people she is talking about.

[@rosh_lal_music]

I would disagree she's smug, but from what she's said it's comprehensible right? She's talked about receiving online abuse and violent threats. Being understanding, rather than condemning, can only go so far when faced with that, and the same expectation of understanding applies to incels too.

[@majavitanovic9085]

she is a journalist. she is supposed to be professional - that means not feeling sorry for people because she needs to stay objective. she is not hateful, but you are overly sensitive to criticism and that makes you, most probably, a narcissist.

[@lorrilewis2178]

I personally find it extremely challenging as a woman to have empathy for incels because of their ease of using ugly and violent language against women. I once made some innocuous comment about a KZbin video, and some man threatened me with violent rape . . . TWICE. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to feel empathy. When women have issues with men, they don't use violent language against them. That men resort to it so easily says something is very very wrong with the male sex.

[@Meloman0001]

​@lorrilewis2178 5% of any population is psychopathic. You could say the same thing about radical Feminism. The extremists of any group will tend to get the most attention. I know many incels. Most are shy, introverted, or religious. Our society has neglected a good portion of our young boys/men and are now judging them by the most extremist elements. The smugness of the host doesn't help

[@Meloman0001]

​​@@majavitanovic9085 much of the conversation was about her subjective experience in the dating market. There was a lot of unnecessary smugness and poking fun at how usless traditional masculinity is. Um no, tradtional masculinity is necessary in large part because boys need guidance and order or they lose themselves in hedonism. Traditional masculinity also protects your borders, polices your streets and saves you from burning buildings

[@toddmcdaniels1567]

Women find men with the ability to read people attractive for three reasons; a) For the reason that William Costello gave; control of the environment - he can use his ability to read the room to advance his interests and status, b) It shows that he has the ability to better cultivate relationships with women and therefore has options/social proof, and c) It makes him a rarity among men. The correlate of this is that if it were more commonplace, it would just be less valued. I wish people would understand that. Self-improvement is great advice for individuals. It does not work on a population level in the face of hypergamy. Hypergamy is relational. There will always be a top 10 percent. The characteristics of the 10 percent may become more fine-grained, but distinctions in attractiveness will never level out. This is a place where Evolutionary Psychology could take a lesson or two from Gestalt Psychology. Attraction is relational.

[@thomaskhalu]

The problem with villainizing an entire group of people is that a big chunk of them will internalize it and become the bad guys. Compassion and civility go a long way.

[@EH_888]

That’s their choice to behave poorly not the fault of others.

[@jasondavis3774]

It doesn't matter at ALL, that's just how humans are. ​@@EH_888

[@incel17]

@@EH_888 incels, involuntary celibate, involuntary, "their choice", sure, involuntary is a synonym for their choice, am I right ?

[@uhnborhn5032]

@@incel17 don't use words like magic! when you start to use them consistently and honestly, then how can they continue to gaslight you into wrong think

[@skylinefever]

If people don't get that ROI on touching grass, expect the problem to continue. When many people say "touch grass" they may assume the grass has the same effect on everyone. Incels often exist because the same old advice did not make them succeed in the dating game.

[@togotfury]

My girlfriend told me i was the greatest guy she'd ever been with...while she was dumping me to go back to her abusive ex. Do not tell me that women care about kindness because every kind man i know is singl, and every girl i know is dating an abusive asshole she refuses to leave.

[@saolálainn]

EVERY man you know is single and EVERY girl you know is dating someone abusive? What kind of friends are you choosing? LOL

[@kungfuvoodoo9889]

I've heard shit like that all my life, I'm sick of the bs excuses those kinds of women give just to save face. If they think I'm a great guy then show it, otherwise they should just own up to the fact that they're lying.

[@saolálainn]

@kungfuvoodoo9889 I've heard the same thing yet from men. Apparently, I was great marriage material, just not for them, should I spend the rest of my life being pissed off with men or should I dust myself off and get on with it? Rejection is tough but character building!!

[@stevecooper7883]

​@@saolálainnLOL you aimed way too high in your prospects. If you actually settled for your looks-match then you'd not have experienced being in the sleeper zone

[@saolálainn]

@stevecooper7883 Actually, I was referring back to many years ago before I met and married my gorgeous husband of 20 + years. If I had been bitter about my previous knockbacks, then he probably wouldn't have looked at me twice. Luckily, I see rejection as part and parcel of the intricacies of life, dust myself off and move on...I never was resentful of men as a result!! Guess I'm just a mature human.

[@oolongoolong789]

A superb discussion which covers so much important ground in an intelligent, nuanced and sensitive manner. Many thanks to Ash Sarkar and William Costello.

[@mapleandsteel]

I think he has an interesting point about the apps. It’s worth realising that the medium of apps itself isn’t uniquely more alienating than any other medium like social media or film. The specific reason why it’s bad is because it is a medium, just like social media, that exists specifically to profit off your alienation, rather than aid you or engage with the Masses in a solidaristic manner.

[@MrBl3ki]

Which is why the apps should be written and created by the government instead of for profit organizations.

[@derekanderson706]

The medium is the message.

[@nicolasm400]

​@@MrBl3kior under a cooperative, democratic business model

[@MrBl3ki]

@@nicolasm400 open source would be best, but the problem is that those could infiltrated as well. Still better than what we have now.

[@MyMpc1]

Ok, cards on the table, I love Ash. But this was a baaaaad interview. Ash's POV seem to be nothing more than anecdotal, throughout the whole interview. She kinda self acknowledged this when she talked about her fake reddit account, you could almost see Costello's eyes rolling. I think he probably anticipated and hoped for a more scrutable engagement with his text, rather than 'my friends tell me they want ....'.

[@blahblahbbllaahh]

Yes! She would make a statement not a question, he would tell her the research says that not the case, then she goes 'yea but...' I think she might want to re-watch this interview with a critical eye so that she can learn from this and become a better interviewer.

[@NarcissistAU]

Precisely, you can't reject something exists just because you find it repellent and/or haven't personally experienced it. A depressingly common mindset, even within Novare apparently.

[@TheShortStory]

You don’t think you might be reading too much into his facial expression in light of your own expectations from this interview? To me he seemed bemused. Must be refreshing to talk about one’s research outside an academic context. Personally I found the interview very interesting. Ash brought her own perspectives, which he sometimes corrected and she did not protest those corrections. As someone that entered the interview with many of the same assumptions as her, I left it with a better understanding of the facts. That’s a success in my book. I just found it an interesting dialogue

[@MyMpc1]

@@TheShortStory No, I don't think that. There are plenty of places to exchanges dating anecdotes from your own personal social circle. Novara's USP isn't that though.

[@Rolo-gn1nk]

I mean, that is the whole point of bringing him on. She's not at the table by herself with the camera only on her telling you this the way it is.

[@marcdoutherd3424]

My fear is that Ash, and people of her ilk (both male and female) aren't really actually concerned about male problems.

[@automaticshelter130]

Yeah, she came off incredibly condescending in this interview. That sort of holier-than-thou attitude doesn’t last long in marriage nor business.

[@lorzon]

Ya think?

[@yurigansmith]

My fear is that too many mentally unstable guys out there take their feigned benevolence too seriously. Of course they don't mean it, it's just the latest fad (‘Oh, are the boys okay?’).

[@marcdoutherd3424]

@@yurigansmith Sure. But there are a lot of guys out there looking for answers

[@anselmopat4985]

Have you all considered that the major trust issue some men have , this idea that everyone is out to get them might be an issue ?

[@mariGentle]

I think its always simplistic for married people to dismissively say, be more social, etc. it just doesn’t always work, It IS very hard to meet people, it is very hard to online date. I don’t have an answer, but Ash is defo in the Smug Married Camp

[@TheIrland09]

Yeah, they think people with social anxiety can just go out and make tons of friends lol.

[@mariGentle]

@@Blastoplastify I love this, made me laugh 😂 so true

[@jaythefox]

Men need to be more sociable with eachother and form male-only social groups where they can feel genuinely empathised with and supported.

[@pasaniucdaniel4112]

@@jaythefox not to rain on your party, but that is basically the army or the mafia, idk if what these people lack most is military training on top (dont just think modern armies, there was ISIS, or various armed rebel groups, there is the rebel war in Sudan, or Lybia, this is a big part of their recruitment)

[@KateLate____]

​@@TheIrland09 social anxiety is not a permanent life long condition. I'd focus more on getting that to a manageable level, if trying to work on self development.

[@anibrown5374]

Mr Costello not only gets men but understands that there are differences between what men and woman say they want and actually want. Also appreciate how he is able to present information, listen carefully, and stay on track during this discussion.

[@contracthit9839]

Costello is a bias male bashing feminist...He is as credible Andrew Tate..

[@daishan1234]

judge people by what they *do*, ignore what they *say*

[@soysergent]

I’d imagine the gaslighting is a large part of why some of them are angry. They live in a reality that everyone has an opinion on while denying what they’re experiencing.

[@amichair]

Yes, it is.

[@michingmallecho5143]

I think there's a sort of Fernando Torres effect. Football is a confidence game, Brian. Failure to score leads to a lack of confidence in your ability to score. Which leads to you failing to score. Which leads to a lack of confidence. Before you know it you're in a vicious regress. If this becomes very severe this can end up in a prolonged goal drought, despite all the great work you're doing round the box. With most men this eventually ends. A drunk girl exercises poor judgement at a wedding. A depressed woman in a hotel bar inexplicably thinks that you look like the lead singer of Soul Asylum. You move to New York, where making the first move is not an issue. But for some of us it goes on for four seasons before you're sold to Chelsea and even then - where once there was a gilded youth now there is a broken haunted man.

[@lisa-marieiorfino]

Some people can appreciate that journey, having been down that road themselves. And some are draw to broken and haunted things. Not to fix, but with an explorers soul, with curiosity. Like calls to like.

[@iinciner8]

I like your extended metaphors random commenter

[@Arthur-jz8sm]

You don't play sports if you think any sport at all is a "confidence game". More insane than incel ideology

[@dera2910]

​@@lisa-marieiorfinothere are no women with like experiences. For men like this all they have is male friends in the same boat and no physical intimacy at any point in your life

[@rhythmandblues_alibi]

​@@dera2910you do realise the term incel was originally coined by a woman? The female equivalent absolutely exists. They're now called femcels because inceldom was co-opted by men.

[@athomeinmyhead]

Just to note that "violence" among the Yanomami people is a controversial topic. I watched this interview, but I'm skeptical any time I hear the label "evolutionary psychology"--because it so often is Western-centric in it's framing--treating Western social models as human imperatives. There is controversy around whether to even consider it as a field of science. It's very important to recognize that what this man is describing leans heavily on Western history and Western culture, and his appeal to Yanomamo culture is also a very Western-centric view, that is, again, a controversy.

[@stevecooper7883]

I guarantee you if we were referring to Middle Eastern Cultures that everything he says would be an understatement, not overstatement

[@athomeinmyhead]

@@stevecooper7883 That literally has nothing to do with what I said. He isn't from the Middle East. So I don't think that is the paradigm influencing his thinking or his research. His context is Western. I am not saying, did not say, would not say that the only misogynistic culture on the globe is Western. But that's the misogynistic culture that is pervasive in many fields, including this one. The misconceptions and controversy around the framing of South/Central American indigenous culture (and even North American indigenous culture historically) has been biased from a European colonial perspective, not researchers from the Middle East.

[@brennuvargr4638]

This hits hard, to be honest. I never write about this online, as it's embarrassing, but as a 5'4" neurodivergent 39-year-old slightly overweight (but working on it) guy, I find it so difficult to get with women/find a relationship. Even though I have plenty of friends, including women, this is such a fuckin' lonely place to be in. For me, it's the companionship and love that I miss over the sex (which I'm not all that bothered about). And while I'm technically 'involuntarily celibate', I abhor the stereotypical incel types that come to mind when you think of the term and want absolutely nothing to do with them. I'm a feminist and pretty much a socialist (teetering between the most left version of social democracy and socialism), doing a job I absolutely love; I've got a great social life (I'm not lonely in that respect); I'm told that I am warm, friendly, approachable, intelligent, etc. But, damn, this is so difficult, and I really don't know where to turn to, as this loneliness hurts *a lot*.

[@T.JVeldens]

Get in shape, sort diet out and work on interpersonal dynamics, take up some new activities that puts you in touch with new interesting women. Dress better. Drop the weak feminist politics and white knighting and any other pathetic beta behaviour. Good luck.

[@Mostly__Sunny291]

Have you thought about taking up tennis? It’s fairly easy to learn and there are loads of adult classes out there. With a bit of practice you can get up to a decent “social” level quite quickly - it’s lots of fun, gets you out the house and into groups of people with similar interests to you.

[@betrousaltaweel]

How many women have you dated in the last year? How many women have you asked out on dates in the last year? If the answer is in single figures you need to be asking out more women.

[@andreaslind6338]

Ballroom dancing. Its fun to do, its a guaranteed party and there are SOOOO many more women doing it than guys. You'll soon get a lot of practice and become good at a new skill. Plus to have lots of girls admiring how good a dancer you are is never a bad thing.

[@SkyyVodkaa]

@@T.JVeldens Agreed, dropping the feminist politics is a good move. I'm left-wing and all my partners have been too, and yet I've still found that women are repulsed by feminist men no matter what they say publicly. Identity politics is a dead end anyway, there's a reason why governments and large corporations love DEI.

[@brandomaxwell]

This interview should've been titled, "I'd Rather Talk About Women's Issues Than Incels." Too bad. I'd hoped for a deeper dive...

[@robinfox4440]

It's like she wasn't even listening to him at all. He handled himself very well in any case, calmly explaining why she's going down a wrong tack, or how what she's saying isn't helpful, without directly saying so. She didn't pick up on any of that, of course, but at least we as viewers got to see an educated man hold himself with poise.

[@antonionotbanderas9775]

I'm only at minute 7 and thinking what a waste of a guest, and what the heck is this girl talking about?

[@offthedeepend3996]

There are no such things as incels.

[@malou2143]

I have to agree with this. Such an interesting guest, such a loud interviewer. What a shame.

[@rickyc46]

People should learn to interview from Matt Walsh. Just keep a straight unimpressed face throughout and ask questions directly. Don't try to be friendly

[@nickjones9867]

Honestly Ash just comes across like she objects to this guys opinion because it feels icky to her to label her own preferences as tangible identifiable things because she doesn’t want to be seen as shallow.

[@nickjones9867]

(Even shallow to herself)

[@davida.bishop4024]

Everyone is shallow, though. Men want pretty women. And women want....hmmm??? Well, there's the rub my friend. They are vastly more complicated than men. And you can tell Ash is high maintenance, too. Lol.

[@jeremywvarietyofviewpoints3104]

Self-deception is said to be an evolved trait. But that may or may not be relevant.

[@jimpaddy79]

I got that impression too, not one of her best interviews

[@TheQuixoticRambler]

​@@davida.bishop4024 Yes, but only men are vilified for having standards-even reasonable ones!

[@karlgreene2177]

I am Autistic I have never had a girlfriend but I like women and have female friends so just because I lack the looks,social skills and finances to attract the opposite sex does not make me a monster!

[@Smarterthanyew]

Noone is saying you are

[@danielsykes7558]

You are right that it doesn't make you a monster. I'm really sorry folks have made you feel that way. (Idk if you follow healthy gamer, but I have seen them as a good role model, even though I don't game myself, haha)

[@hayleyxyz]

No it doesn't. You also don't need finances, aside from being able to support yourself. I'm autistic and lack social skills too. I'd suggest just start with flirty chats on casual dating apps. Not suggesting anything will come from it, but it'll be fun and you'll gain confidence in flirting that way. If your female friends are good friends, then they might be able to give you tips on how to improve your image and help decipher any bad interactions.

[@V4Now]

​@@Smarterthanyewwomen are recording themselves openly admitting that a man who's never had a girl friend or have kids or even have sex, that's a red flag. Of course it's just the Internet, but girls are starting to repeat and think thus in real life.

[@botanicalitus4194]

nobody thinks youare a monster

[@ecohumanism]

it feels that for many to be just wanted is not enough, people are depressed because they have no future and actual relationships, from the lack of trust and intimacy. it's important to know that gender does not define your morals

[@Bonfireboy1963]

Ash assumes that what her small group of friends wants applies to millions of other women. As for the comment that no one drives in London, look at Tottenham High Road or Green Lanes and the number of high end vehicles.

[@painunending4610]

Women's camaraderie can also be their detriment

[@ciobalina7445]

​@@painunending4610 They're not that affected unless it makes it difficult to secure a long-term mate because of unfit selection criteria (aka too high standards), criteria somehow imposed by the group of female friends/relatives. I've seen this.

[@jaijai5250]

I just laughed at that statement. The commute to work within London is horrendous.

[@breejean7705]

We already know that people typically seek mates of a similar financial status and educational level as them - which is exactly what she said. Her experience may be anectdotal but that doesn't make it inaccurate. Most women are not seeking extremely wealthy men: wealthy men almost exclusively date and marry wealthy women. They usually just want men with stability and potential, and men usually want this from women too.

[@robinfox4440]

I love how he casually shot down the whole "straight white male alt-right adjacent" narrative. It's not accurate, and it's never been helpful. He responded very well to every biased thing she said. That part about "you do realize women are human, right?" was just so painfully tone deaf. I wonder why people see her as a feminist online? She just could not wait to insert her ideological opinion, no matter how inaccurate, at every turn.

[@TheQuixoticRambler]

Thank you. Yes. So true. He stayed cool, polite and effective despite her predictable media driven remarks.

[@patricksmith4424]

So true. She is a shining examples of why there are incels and said as much herself. " He must be well educated, sense of purpose, magnetic charisma" in other words non graduate losers pxss off. Yeh the Dr was perfectly calm, he knew where she was at.

[@AronMace]

I could be wrong, but I think some of the things he said as matter of fact, thought maybe accurate on some objective basis, came off as a little reactionary. Saying women care more about security and financial stability and that dating is transactional goes against many humanistic ideals we have about love and relationships. I don't think he sugar coated anything, and I can't lie that I had some knee-jerk reactions to his bluntness as well. Just like anyone else, maybe being faced with certain nuanced truths can be hard to hear, especially when women are statistically far more victimized by men than vice versa

[@Jamie-ye7fu]

Done him dirty on the “He’s the expert on incels”

[@aamnahere6250]

How is your comment 2 days old when the video was uploaded 2 hours ago?

[@TheSpoovy]

Why? He is an expert on incels

[@jujutrini8412]

@@aamnahere6250 It’s the Matrix 😂

[@robinroberts2568]

@@aamnahere6250 Video released early to members, then public a few days after.

[@hungsangchan]

"your PhD topic is populist." thats already a bit of a burn lol

[@timcoultas1512]

Here's an idea: instead of asking men to self-develop in their career or the like in order to become someone attractive, we tell young boys that they're (k)enough, they don't need to prove themselves to anyone, and they don't need a woman for their own happiness. Give them a guide for being happy without a relationship rather than settle for less than what they want. Maybe it would be helpful if fathers can be more involved in bringing up their kids.

[@LoudmouthReviews]

That's as useful as telling men they should breathe water instead of air

[@James_36]

imagine doing all that hard work, having a 10% chance of success and then a woman takes a shine, decides to divorce you and half your efforts in one foul swoops and destroy your mental health in the process and then being unable to see your kid for any decent length of time... I cant believe men sign up for such guff

[@James_36]

@@stk5536 I am mostly agreeing with and giving the scenario that relates to this "go work harder bro" guff just get a womans attention. However, lets not fall into this idea that somehow being on your own without a woman is some kind of better option, it isn't, it is a coping mechanism

[@James_36]

@@stk5536 oh gosh... you are part of the problem

[@James_36]

@@stk5536 I would but I no longer address left wing talking points anymore it is waste of time

[@supersnail5000]

While im compasionate to womens broader problems with violence in dating, I really don't understand Ash's logic on women not being agentic because of the fear of sexual violence. If the logic is basically "I won't pursue any man because he might be violent" surely the same would hold that "Any man pursuing me might be violent" - so why would the expectation be on the man to be agentic when he is told not only will you be perceived as potentially a rapist by the woman, but the act of you even approaching her could be perceived as predatory or threatening? Surely in that scenario, men being the agentic ones leads to a selection bias where men more willing to ignore the comfort of women are more likely to engage with them than men more respectful of their boundaries? It almost feels like an excuse to keep the status quo, as its unquestionably easier to be the one being pursued, but based on current societal beliefs, Codtello is absolutely right that its more important than ever for women to be agentic if they are actively seeking a partner. Men are now rigourously instructed that anything other than the most enthusiastic consent makes you a rapist, and that carries throughout the dating process, and unless a woman clearly indicates that she wants you to engage, approaching is perceived as a violation. I genuinely think the idea that you might be called a predator/creep for approaching a woman is now a much greater fear for most men than simply being rejected. This is even more true in the comparison Ash tries to make, because a woman initiating the interaction puts herself in no immediate danger - she has the entire rest of the interaction to judge the mans character and whether she wants to continue it - meanwhile for men the danger is the immediate risk of being perceived as a creep for engaging. I'm genuinely trying my best to be compassionate and see this from a womans perspective, but I just cant find any logic in it, I'd love if someone could tell me what I'm missing here

[@frusia123]

It actually feels threatening to be approached by a man. That's why circumstances are important. That's why it's safer to date someone from your circles, who's known by people you already know. Today's world is pushing women towards risky behaviours, and normalising them, but they remain risky.

[@franjkav]

Being considered creepy is not a risk to anything but a hurt ego. If it doesn’t result in one reconsidering their own behavior, there’s probably bigger issues

[@menonalevi6984]

@@frusia123 That's a pretty misandric way of thinking

[@ruthsparrier1767]

I had the same thoughts. Maybe it’s about responsibility. In other words, can I still be the victim if I chose my own assailant? Obviously yes. But perhaps that’s the worry.

[@jeanbob1481]

What I still have not understood is why women go for men with tattoo and men that allegedly look and ARE violent. Then they turn around and say violence is a big problem.

[@Xanaduum]

'Incel' is basically a misandric gendered slur, unless the man/boy describes themselves as an incel. People talk about micro aggressions and gendered language and then in the next breath use the term a 'incel'.

[@benfisher1376]

It's very hypocritical.

[@trueminds1169]

Have you even watched 5 minutes of the interview? The incel community call themselves incels it’s self identifying 🤦‍♀️

[@smartalex22]

@@trueminds1169 Didn't you read his comment? '...unless the man/boy describes themselves as an incel'.

[@svenhanson398]

Vikings were incels, I wonder how historians into that period would respond to that claim. A claim without it seems no research behind it. And Chagnon, I would be careful using his data. He manipulated the Yanomami into violence, it went up in the region he was in, he gave gifts to one group to make another group angry etc. This is a pretty common criticism of his work.

[@jonminton1878]

It’s more the idea that people with less to lose by leaving are more likely to leave, which just seems obviously true from first principles.

[@Mcfunface]

Obviously the Vikings weren't "incels", but rather second sons as were the conquistadors. The challenges of today require unique solutions

[@xbfdx988]

​@@Mcfunfacethat may have been a position where it was hard to land a mate in those times

[@Stoddardian]

This is only going to get worse.

[@LuisCarruthers]

Yes it is. Progressive ideology drives men and women apart. Also, the internet has made people more mentally unwell. These two things happening simultaneously have been brutal.

[@LeSaxon90]

Yup. I can't wait 🤣🤣🤣

[@Stoddardian]

@@LeSaxon90 Why?

[@owabowa]

​@@LuisCarruthersMore so that progressive ideology gave women rights that they didn't have, now they don't need to leach onto men to have a house, money, status, etc. When women can live a fulfilling life by themselves they will stay away from anyone that might distrupt their peace, men are now picked when they add more to a women's life than she can have by herself. That's fair enough really, the problem is that men will now have a harder time getting a woman. But that's not the women's fault.

[@insomniacresurrected1000]

@@StoddardianBecause it will be fun.

[@lancemusashi6368]

I briefly identified as an incel for one weird period of my life and I didn't hate women at that time. I just hated their dating preferences. I have too many sisters and female friends to actually hate women. I never thought that hating women was a requirement to be an "incel". It's just a situation. You still don't wanna be one though because it's slapping a label on yourself based on a current situation, which can change at any moment. I stopped being one after having a rare spiritual experience once which made me consider, what if there's a 1% chance that the Law of Attraction is real? (not claiming that it is, just claiming that it's better to be on the safe side if you're on the edge). I started changing my attitude. I started receiving compliments more and more. Admittedly, I was already attractive (and knew it) when I was an incel. I just thought something else was wrong with me. If you ever see an incel in real life, give them a compliment. Find something attractive about them, even if it's not their looks. That's what they need. They need hope. We're not giving them that.

[@chancletadeldiablo894]

They need to cultivate an intrinsic sense of self-esteem; they DON'T need to get on the hamster wheel of chasing external validation. Just about the worst thing one can do to themselves is to rely on the fickle whims of other people for a sense of identity, confidence, or self-esteem. When one does that, one is basically putting all of their power into other people's hands. It is foolish and unsustainable. They need to care LESS about what other people think, and to fully accept themselves as they are now, without judgement.

[@lancemusashi6368]

@@chancletadeldiablo894 yes that's important, but it takes a lot to get there. I first had to understand that I was "okay". My internal barometer for what makes a person unlikeable, obnoxious, appropriate, or just acceptable given any situation was skewed and exaggerated. You need real world experience to calibrate it to a healthy space.

[@AroundTheBest]

I can relate to this post but I've been single for the vast majority of my life. I don't think I'm ugly but women simply haven't ever been receptive to me.

[@Stoddardian]

@@AroundTheBest You probably come off as unconfident.

[@AroundTheBest]

@@Stoddardian According to "Europe's Journal of Psychology" Confidence follows from physical attractiveness, rather than precedes it.

[@bascal133]

I totally agree that being sexually invisible is a painful experience that shouldn't be treated as you being entitled or as a joke (unless this person is talkinga bout state mandated girlfriends or something liek that) when I was overweight I was invisible to guys, you would literally have a guy walk up to you and friend and talk to them like you didn't exist. That is really hurtful

[@stacyyoust]

Unless we'd rather be overlooked!

[@johnkeane1419]

His statement about incels being mostly ethnicels refutes almost all lamestream narratives on this issue. Do ethnicels also view white women as racist?

[@lancemusashi6368]

Yes, that's literally what incels complain about. Racism against their own race. For example, Asian men being considered less attractive. THAT"S RACISM. So incels do have a legitimate complaint beleive it or not. It's just that people have a hard time feeling bad for men. I'm not asian btw.

[@johnkeane1419]

@@lancemusashi6368 I would also suggest that many liberals would struggle to accept that women can be racist. In my personal experience, many are.

[@scallamander4899]

@@lancemusashi6368 How is it racist to have sexual preferences?

[@dextercool]

Have we forgotten the subconscious? People can say they want one thing and subconsciously want something else.

[@sfbuck415]

there's no such thing as subconscious, just people with a tremendous capacity for self-deception. people make a habit of lying to themselves and it becomes impossible to see truth.

[@anthill1510]

Inceldom is not about loneliness or relationships, it`s not even about sex, it`s about status. I have been in incel spaces and read what they are actually saying. It becomes very clear what they actually want is to sleep with a lot of women or marry the hottest one in town to gain status in the eyes of other men. That`s why they worship "alpha males", it`s what they want to be and can`t be. If their problem would be loneliness that could be fixed by having friends, even only male friends, but that is not what they want, they want the status of "getting women". If their problem would be sex that could be fixed by going to sex workers, but if somebody brings that up they scoff at it because it doesn`t bring them status. The reason why they hate women so much is because in their eyes the whole point of the existence of women is to give them status and women are refusig to do that and since the ecomomy is so bad it`s difficult to gain status through your job.

[@Lee-bv6iv]

Not quite forgotten. I was subconsciously aware of it, at the very least.

[@jimsliverootsculturemusic]

@@Lee-bv6iv funny

[@charlottehermann4668]

I am not sure that is entirely true. One seems to be very tightly tied to the other. People in general have more than one desire. They may even have conflicting desires. Sorry to bring this into it, but your eyes say yea but you mouth say no, is just plain wrong. Even if you seem to see a shade of desire in someones eyes, it is up to them if they want to react on their desires.

[@turk3287]

Missed a huge factor in the fertility rate conversation. Can you ignore the economic and environmental hellscape we live in?

[@he1ar1]

That would be a cause for both men and women being celibate. That is not what the "incel" phenomena describes. It describes a male only problem.

[@sinthoras1917]

Exactly. Socialist countries like the GDR always had higher birthrates than western European capitalist countries, and they had far better women’s rights than we had or probably ever will have. Even capitalist countries like Sweden, that have better women's rights and social policies have higher birthrates. To claim that women's rights lead to lower birth rate is absolutely slanderous, and hurts the cause of women.

[@sinthoras1917]

Exactly. Socialist countries like the GDR always had higher birthrates than western European capitalist countries, and they had far better women’s rights than we had or probably ever will have. Even capitalist countries like Sweden, that have better women's rights and social policies have higher birthrates. To claim that women's rights lead to lower birth rate is absolutely slanderous, and hurts the cause of women.

[@john_hunter_]

@@sinthoras1917 Even Sweden's fertility rate still isn't high enough to replace their population. But you're right, women's rights don't directly lead to lower fertility rates. There are populations within countries with gender equality that do have high fertility rates. The Amish are a great example of this. Even though the US has gender equality laws, Amish fertility rates are still high. This is probably because they raise their children with traditions that lead to high fertility rates. Women in the most popular Amish communities are free to leave & join the rest of US society. Despite being free to choose, around 80% decide to stay & practise their Amish traditions that lead to high fertility rates.

[@ivan5595]

Lol socialist countries are more conservative than progressive ones. Did you see what Romania's president did? I suggest you look up China and North Korea's ethnicity policies

[@hubertbross6725]

For fucks sake Ash, not everybody lives in London. If you don't have a car and live in a countryside you are nothing.

[@aleksandrac9335]

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

[@Cashback13]

Cause you can't possibly move to bigger towns and cities from the countryside can you?

[@pasaniucdaniel4112]

@@Cashback13 moving to the city also makes you give half your money on rent and utilities for far smaller homes, if you live rent free in the countryside not moving to "better" cities can make very much sense, especially moving without a clear plan

[@hubertbross6725]

@@Cashback13 and why should you move???

[@alexcarter2461]

I love in rural Ontario and know this all too well, I was driving before I had license because cars are a necessity out here.

[@nicholastorres44]

She’s like “tell me how the incels are a political and social group that I disagree with” and gets disappointed that they’re people.

[@kayvee256]

I didn't see that. At least one of us is wrong.

[@caitlinhealy3452]

totally disagree, she’s approaching the topic with curiosity

[@bestbehave]

I saw the opposite - she was clear at the beginning that was the stereotype, and then explored there topic with an expert

[@ghostfires]

As an utterly average looking guy in his 40s, this discussion depresses me deeply. Do young guys no longer just get loaded, go to house parties, talk to girls, try to be funny, and get their numbers? You would get rejected a bunch sure but it wasn't rocket science and it was lots of fun mostly, no one cared about your 'dating market value' or any of that crap.

[@backwardthoughts1022]

depends entirely on bodyfat percentage and if you have dark circles and poor skin from computer overconsumption and bad diet

[@dyscostic]

I am a lifelong below average looking man in his late 30s currently at University to finish a degree and I can honestly say the attractive men I talk to amongst the student body are doing fine and average and below men are far more more isolated and unlikely to attempt approaches. I was a regular (though not prolific) dater of nerd girls in the early 2000s at the same institution and my romantic history was positively exuberant in comparison to 2/3 of them. Something is very wrong.

[@Buddhavibez]

This is how human will unknowingly become ccp robots living in some dystopian social credit system

[@anthill1510]

@@dyscostic What do you mean the below average men are far more isolated? Do other men avoid being friends with them?

[@anthill1510]

@@aloah030 What are you talking about? He just wrote that he is very average looking and he got the numbers. You are so hellbent on not being in any way responsible for your bad luck that you ignore what is said in the comment. Do you know his life better than him?

[@greenvector]

The most shocking thing about this whole discussion is that people like Ash had no compassion for these types of men in the first place

[@softcolly8753]

What's shocking about the left being full of hate?

[@VenomLD50Med]

​@@softcolly8753kaban! Yep

[@softcolly8753]

@@VenomLD50Med and boom! My comment has disappeared.

[@SuperHawk0413]

@@softcolly8753 no it's still here. "What's shocking about the left being full of hate?"

[@goaheadmakemyday7126]

@@softcolly8753what you say?

[@missinterpretation4984]

1:03:35 It’s not just differences in fear of sexual violence, it’s also fear of judgement and a sort of social violence. Many of us came from religions that literally taught us sex ruins women. We heard that women were stoned for not being virgins when we were like 6.

[@JuliAuditore]

womp womp

[@BBC_KIKG]

Dumb comment

[@missinterpretation4984]

@@BBC_KIKG It’s a true comment.

[@BBC_KIKG]

@@missinterpretation4984 sex does ruin women

[@missinterpretation4984]

@@BBC_KIKG I’m sorry you’re hurting.

[@HasturTheKingInYellow]

A woman values other things as well but most of it is after they find the man secure enough. So, security first most of the time.

[@jacksonhunkle2444]

Sooo romantic 🥰

[@ethosterros9430]

Money

[@vira1340]

Ash saying that women fear being agentic because they fear the possibility of sexual violence is bizarre. Being Agentic allows women more control and makes them safer. Not sure why she thinks that is more dangerous than an unknown man approaching a woman. Ash is not strong on logic.

[@SeamasMcSwiney]

But, her husband said....😁

[@mistressofstones]

I'm highly agentic, I didn't avoid sexual violence, but that's perhaps unrelated. I think the fear is that agentic women will be blamed when they do suffer sexual violence, because you can't claim to be a chaste good girl. But really the blame comes more from women than men on this. Other women often hate agentic women.

[@vira1340]

I get your point. and I am sorry you had a bad experience. But Agentic people take risks, and with that comes well risk. Risk is important for growth. Agentic people understand this and accept the tradeoff. A sensible approach is to not take risks that will destroy you but to take all other risks.@@mistressofstones

[@alanamontero4743]

​@@vira1340There are more risks and more serious risks for women. A large number of men respond poorly to agentic women, including sometimes with violence. Assumptions are made about her sexual availability, character, desperation, etc. She is seen as desperate and undesirable or a slut. If she isn't as quickly sexually available as erroneously assumed, this leads to anger and possibly sexual and/or other violence. Certainly not all men think this way - and the number seems to be going down over time - but if you don't know a man well, then you have little idea of whether he will be this sort of man or not. Women are risking a lot more than rejection; rejection isn't the biggest concern. Fortunately, it never led to SA or physical violence for me but I did have one man flip out and say vile things to me because his silly assumptions didn't match with the reality that I'm slow to warm up and had had only 1 sexual partner ever at that point in my life. He accused me of "leading him on" because I didn't want to jump in bed with him right away, even though my approach was clearly not of that nature. Being agentic does give a woman more control but it doesn't necessarily make her safer.

[@aleksandrac9335]

Making a first move as a women makes women less safe and even more blamed.

[@omarsiddiqui9224]

Genuinely interesting conversation.

[@freshprinceabi]

The funniest thing is that she’s actually a good potrait of how “incels” define the cognitive dissonance present in women

[@KaneNewman-wo7tv]

Not enough comment on how class impacts the dating market

[@stevecooper7883]

Or how what women will publicly say vs how they act can differ

[@arlostcause3383]

​@stevecooper7883 Did you even listen to the video?😂

[@thomasschrader8272]

Very disappointing considering Ash identifies herself as a communist.

[@giorgioviggiano6501]

I don t want to sound as spiteful but there is an underlying issue here. It was an interview about men's issue for them brought by them. 1/3 of the interview has been spent addressing women's issue. All legitimate issues (maybe still more pressing) but women's issue nonetheless. It is still difficult to address men's issue.

[@Ghost-hl6ki]

100 % you’re right

[@Buckbuck2345]

Women don't care about men's issues. most men don't either

[@giorgioviggiano6501]

@@Buckbuck2345 it is sad. Left leaning publications (either social media or traditional press) do not address the issues

[@danak2230]

I see your point, but I thought that the discussion about how this men's issue relates to wider society was interesting. Also, because inceldom is a social issue, it's naturally going to involve other people. I think the interview could have focused a bit more on men's side of it, however.

[@giorgioviggiano6501]

@@danak2230 thanks. I think you described perfectly what I meant

[@GodsOwnPrototype]

Every feminist woman talking head should be required to undergo the Norah Vincent experience once they've hit a year of displaying their failure to properly empathise. (I don't disagree that an opposite style experience for most men would also be useful).

[@patrickkalin4437]

I'm a short man, 5ft 6. I've always assumed most women are not automatically attracted to me and that's OK. I certainky don't hate them for it. Being tall just helps you get a foot in the door. You still need to do all the work. Self improvement is the only way forward, it's not rocket science but it requires the one thing that anathema to some memebers of the incel community, putting in effort.

[@JuliAuditore]

It doesn't matter of you can't get a foot in the door

[@patrickkalin4437]

@@JuliAuditore it still does matter. You can't just be a big, tall moron and have a satisfying relationship without putting in any work.

[@JuliAuditore]

​@@patrickkalin4437Yeah, you need to put in the work but you cans still find yourself not being able to get into a romantic relationship.

[@patrickkalin4437]

@@JuliAuditore yip that's life, no one said it was going to be easy.

[@JuliAuditore]

@@patrickkalin4437 True, but it's pretty frustrating when you're being told that both men and women have the same difficulty finding a partner when that isn't the case.

[@Felix_Duesenburg]

I stumbled over the expression "incel ideology" right in the introduction. What does this even mean? Involuntary celibacy, abbreviated 'Incel', is a state of being, not an ideology.

[@Felix_Duesenburg]

@@aleksadupuy It being called an ideology makes no sense to begin with. "Involuntary" means they don't choose it. Hence it already is in the name that it's _not_ an ideology.

[@nocturnaljoe9543]

@@Felix_Duesenburg You are the only one here with a brain, mein Freund.

[@kxjx]

I don't agree with your view on transactionality. These adult relationships are transactional, and that is in fact what differentiates them from parent-child relationships. The fact is that women are often taken advantage of and abused in relationships (and sometimes men), and they need to leave if that is happening. Everyone should consider what they are getting out of their relationship and evaluate if being in the relationship is indeed in their own interests.

[@mohammedraheef1415]

‪It’s true that men without a purpose or drive to do things typically get less sex and are more impressionable (ei members of a troop with a strong cult leader), but I wouldn’t categorize sexlessness as a signifier of violent men, it’s the aimlessness and passive living that drives people to violence, criminality, impulsive behavior and other of the sort.

[@Arronj30Jss]

As an incel of 32 this is one of the better more balanced conversations about incel life/mentality.

[@toddmcdaniels1567]

A femcel is an old/older woman, 40+ perhaps. The ability to get sex doesn’t really make a woman a femcel by itself; It’s the inability to get a relationship, because men are not gatekeeping it in a way that is advantageous to women at more advanced ages. So, even still, the term isn’t quite parallel, but it is equivalent in that a femcel maybe can get sex, yet is unable to obtain what would be the highest prize, a relationship. Young incel men maybe can get relationships from women, yet can’t get what would be their highest prize, sex (some male incels are married too and are not autistic and are very definitely celibate, I might add, and that should show one reason why I’m not terribly enamored by how this gentleman attained his sample).

[@DG123z]

Married men aren't the handsome chads.. chads are, by definition, the ones with options.. the ones with options don't settle down

[@BrutusMcCrunch]

Thank you

[@KFrost-fx7dt]

Yes they do. They settle down with the one the truly want.

[@handsomebear.]

She's so hilariously privileged 😂

[@drrbrt]

Physical attraction is necessary but not sufficient. The ex's she had that she wasn't as physically attracted to are not exceptions to the rule. They are ex's for that very reason. The same reason mine left me. You can be a married incel ya know.

[@davidredshaw448]

I've turned it into a limerick: "The Incels all started to whinge, About their perceived lack of minge. They all got quite snotty, 'Bout having no totty, And felt they'd been pushed to the fringe".

[@johnwalters5410]

Brilliant.

[@Chadbadsad]

Dating apps truly are the worst! Best thing to do is meeting someone via something you enjoy.

[@switzjon8405]

Especially in the Black community. You're clowned as "lame" when you're not getting any action.

[@LondonMoneyCashEnterprise]

Yes I was a young black teen getting no action I felt so useless

[@dovic86]

interview: dating apps, commodification, rejection, mating market, cross-sex mumbo jumbo me: being alone is not so bad after all

[@adamhixon]

This man is among the most reasonable and well-spoken advocates for a male perspective. And everything he had to say that didn't immediately line up with her preconceived view the world she simply dismissed without much of any thought. This was a really depressing interview to listen to.

[@benfisher1376]

Tbf Ash has often been like this. She's the female Owen Jones. Dogmatic.

[@Troy-ol5fk]

Being smart and a good personality can make an average looking man/woman stand out

[@socramzetroc1535]

Guys Have you noticed the lack of women's comments about this subject? I'm not talking about this video in particular. But all the videos about this subject. It's because at the end it's not their problem!! They don't care about us They only care about the emotions the attractive men give them.

[@metaphysicalfractionals4509]

Oh, no, we are watching but it’s useless to say anything because incel rage gets directed at us for simply breathing, so it’s a waste of time. I have been stalked and falsely impersonated by an incel so it’s not worth the trouble. Empathy towards incels will just get you hatred from incels.

[@dwellinginshadows]

@@metaphysicalfractionals4509 The only times I've seen "incel rage" is when a smug woman invades male discussions, says stupid shit, and rightfully gets called out for it. Also, I don't believe women are capable of empathizing with men on this issue at all unfortunately, so it's no wonder why you don't see any. This is because when it comes to dating, attraction, and just life generally, a typical man's experience is so foreign to most women that in my view, the empathy is simply feigned if they even bother to express it at all.

[@killdracula526]

@@dwellinginshadows Wait so, OP is complaining about lack of women's care on this subject.... and you're disparaging attempts by women to enter the discourse! I'm afraid you've proven that commenter's point...

[@dwellinginshadows]

@@killdracula526 The commenter's point was that women in this discussion are victims of "incel rage." I'm not getting angry or hateful, so it's a stretch to say that I've proven their point. I'm simply stating an observation that this discourse is generally hopeless because women cannot truly empathize with men, which is true. My take also implies OP's position to be true, because if there was legitimate empathy or care to be had, then we would see a stronger push by women to intervene in men's mental health.

[@Cinephileofmany]

Fascinating. I can relate to this on some level. I’m a 38 yr old male and have been single most of my life apart from a couple of short lived girlfriends (about 6 months) and the odd ‘fling’ here and there. I have been referred to as good looking many times in my life, a nice guy and have a solid group of old friends. However, due to my age my friends pretty much all have children and socialize much much less than we used to, so it’s quite lonely. Sometimes I resent this because the meeting friends through friends possibility just isn’t provided for. Now, because of this I have been on the dating apps (mostly unsuccessfully), and I do tend to experience that they are a net negative. So agree with Ash there. So what to do to get myself out there is a question I have fought with a lot. It’s not as easy as it seems and I can’t tell whether this is a) age b) cultural changes, c) locale living in a small market town or d) social awkwardness on my side, trying to figure out how to make new friends and fear of rejection. I could talk so much about this!

[@franjkav]

Parents have a bias against nonparents

[@terrie6738]

What are you interested in? You can join an adult class where you can meet people, slowly get to know them and go from there. By adult class I mean, some sort of mixed sex classes (cooking, art, dance, sports,) that type of thing. Plenty of people join alone and meet someone in that class.

[@chrisnurse1985]

Incel isn't an ideology. It's a situation where you can't find a sexual partner.

[@Smarterthanyew]

That has become an ideology for many

[@botanicalitus4194]

I think most people use the term lnceI to refer to an ideology now. Most people wouldnt consider a good guy to be an lnceI even if he cant find a partner

[@roseparade_]

Perhaps when that bisexual woman created the term, but today it means more than that.

[@johnmunro4952]

It's a sub group of potentially vulnerable and therefore potentially exploitable men. Political groups are always on the lookout for that

[@TheIrland09]

​@@Smarterthanyew It's only a small number of incels that openly spout hatred against women. Most are simply depressed because they are lonely and lack social skills.

[@DG123z]

Just the fact that they have the term "short king" proves that height matters

[@user-lv8vn8kq8r]

It does

[@patrickkalin4437]

Tall men are obviously more attractive on average, get over it and improve yourself

[@DG123z]

@@patrickkalin4437 drop your attitude and stop assuming

[@patrickkalin4437]

@@DG123z I'm a short man myself, 5ft 6 but I'm not a moron. If all other things were equal a 6ft 2 man would obviously be more attractive on average, that's all I'm assuming. I also have absolutely no problem with that

[@DG123z]

@@patrickkalin4437 I agree with you about tall men obviously being more desirable but don't tell me to get over it and improve myself as if I've not already done that and as if it even makes a difference

[@FirstLast-cd6vv]

Very foolish to hurl insults at groups which one knows nothing about.

[@jinnindo]

Why? What are incels going to do about it?

[@raoulmontefiore4803]

To quote Jonathan Richman "true love is not nice".

[@ayfreedom]

One important yet significant fact that no one mentions is the whole notion of Incel existence is purely a western phenomenon and as a product of the sociocultural changes in the last few decades. It is a product of the overall importance we attach to superficially materialistic concepts like wealth, looks, status, popularity, and vicarious living. Of course Holywood is the biggest culprit in advancing this shot. Also speaking of healthy relationships and till death us part..55% of marriages end up in divorce. how healthy ?

[@Padraigp]

Its probably quite healthy to get a divorce. We live as adults for 60 years. Thats a long time. People didn't live that long when marriage was invented. A child can be grown by the time you are 40 and been married 20 years the job of marriage is basically done at that point for its purpose of parenting children in a monogamous way that could identify the childs responsible father. People used to have single careers and never leave their job their whole life either. Now you might have two totally complete and divergent careers in one lifetime. So I would say its pretty healthy if people recognise that the utility of marriage only extends so far. Just as people recognise staying in the same career for 50 years may not be the healthiest choice in life.

[@LoudmouthReviews]

Totally untrue. Nearly half the worlds incels live in China

[@m_ru1993]

i agree with this as someone from a poor African country now living in a big city this is an issue in mostly the metropolis

[@holnrew]

There's Hikikomori in Japan, and in nations where men can take multiple wives there's a big issue with male loneliness. It's a big problem in many nations that have developed past a certain point, they might not have exactly the same incel culture, but there's going to be atomisation of society and increased isolation.

[@2Question-Everything]

I wonder if these guys go after the 4's and 5's and the odd girls? Or do they only go after the 8's and 9's? I am pretty sure I am autistic-wasn't a thing when I was a young girl. I never fit the mold of typical, never did what was popular. I've been recently going to places with autistic people. We are a bit strange-colorful, but quite,not crazy. I always thought I shouldn't be with odd folks because I was/am odd-but now I think they may be 'my people.' Maybe the nonviolent incels should date the strange girls.

[@samfourness4737]

I truly hate the way Ash talks about men, she things she’s really clued up but it’s pure ignorance

[@bmortloff]

Makes the conversation pretty interesting

[@TheQuixoticRambler]

She's just parroting whatever Feminist talking points we're fed to her through the media, back when they had their campaign to try and vilify The Men's Rights Activists movement. Redefining incels so they could smear them; before lumping them in with other men's groups in order to launch a guilt by association attack.

[@justmechilling...]

Can you explain whats wrong with her opinion about men?

[@jaijai5250]

She was pretty spot on regarding Andrew Tate. I can’t believe any woman would want to be in his vicinity, the moment he opened his mouth. He really does talk “funny”.

[@Buckbuck2345]

She seems super full of herself. could not stand her

[@edhero4515]

Very interesting to receive so much attention. The expert seems to have actually researched this scene. It is all the more astonishing that neither public discourse nor research has noticed that the key property is misunderstood. Involuntary celibacy is a second or higher order effect. It is about hopelessness. Younger people without hope naturally focus on the deprivation of sexual experience while self-resonance effects occur incessantly in the networks. Misogyny, racism, identity-generating cult formation, addictive behavior, group phantasms and the "rope thing" are apparently symptoms of the human organism in the absence of hope. To date, there has probably been little opportunity to study hopelessness in large numbers of individuals across age and gender groups that are not organized along ethnic lines and are all interconnected. I can report unequivocally from my own research: Sexual intercourse does not help at all with hopelessness.

[@SamuelOrjiM]

They know but they're guarding against "wage inflation" and fuelling this to cause a distraction

[@paganlark7037]

I met my husband at work... do people not hook up at work anymore? Women aren't on the apps. Just delete that stuff. He keeps saying that the apps are the dating market--NO. The apps are designed to trick you into thinking you can access the dating market via this easy thing you can just do on your phone. Sorry, that's a very profitable trick that you're falling for.

[@chrisandsneaky2453]

Dating someone at work is very risky for men because just asking a woman to go on a date is sexual harassment and grounds for termination if the woman rejects him.

[@paganlark7037]

@@chrisandsneaky2453 That's true, it is risky. My husband became friends with me outside of work and then asked me out as we were all hanging out at a friend's house in one night after everyone left. He was classy about it and didn't ask at our actual work place.

[@Recluse616]

Surprised you didn't accuse him of sexual harassment 🤣🤣

[@sunnydays405]

@@paganlark7037how tall is your husband? (He’s above 6 foot, that’s why she didn’t file a complaint)

[@paganlark7037]

@@sunnydays405 You think so simply about it. My husband is 5' 10" (we are the exact same height). He's a skinny asian guy. I fell in love with him for 2 reasons: 1) he's the smartest man I've ever met. 2) he's a deeply good and moral person. He has empathy for other people, it's what makes him a great dad. It really helped also that he's very funny. Some women select for physical appearance, others are more attracted to smart or funny guys. There isn't one type of women or one way to win.

[@Icameron259]

I hate to indentify with the term 'incel' because of the association with misgogynistic men, it is an accurate description of my status. I could probably escape this status if I were to dedicate a lot of my time over the next few years towards improving my diet (I regularly go to the gym but am slightly overweight), learning how to dress well, getting back into the habit of cooking, keeping my room clean, swapping my exceptionally male-dominated hobby (Magic the Gathering) to something that I would probably enjoy less but doesn't repel women, getting on the dating apps, etc. Granted, some of that I should do in any case. But all of that is daunting, so I keep putting it off.

[@SkyyVodkaa]

I met my current partner at a literature club I went to every week, also met my ex-girlfriend at an art history event. More cultured hobbies tend to work best for meeting women, at least in my experience if that's any use to you. Remember the more time you are spending at home, the less likely you are to meet the right girl. On the fitness thing, DO NOT go on any of the online fitness forms, ended up messing with my head in my 20s and although I did get in extremely good shape at one point I ended up with body dysmorphia and couldn't maintain my physique anyway. Just at least try do 10k steps a day and the gym a couple of days a week and cut out sugar. Good luck! and btw Cos is a good shop for men's clothes, elegant and simple, not that expensive either.

[@beesknees2594]

​@@SkyyVodkaayou don't have to invest less time in your interests to find someone, even if it's a male dominated hobby I think you shouldn't sacrifice something that makes you happy just in the hopes of pleasing someone else.

[@SkyyVodkaa]

@@beesknees2594 When did I say that? It's totally fine to play magic. Even still, yes you literally do have to invest less time in your hobbies if you want to find a successful long term relationship... what an illogical complaint man.

[@beesknees2594]

@@SkyyVodkaa oh sorry, I meant to reply to OPs comment, not your reply.

[@Gothicc_senpai]

@@SkyyVodkaa may i ask if you are white? i find i have similar hobbies but told not to go, or that my skin colour scares people. ive heard this from a few friends. curious how otherss experienes are

[@Josh-balti]

Jesus that was boring, the interviewer needs to learn to let the subject speak. She railroaded half the conversation into a diatribe about her own dating experiences

[@Xanaduum]

I have body Dysmorphia, but it has nothing to do with my muscles or going to the gym. Everyone assumes that if a man has body Dysmorphia it must be related to feeling like they don't have big enough muscles, which is then seen as toxic masculinity - which seems like a low-key dismissal.

[@riva2003]

No one needs a relationship in order to prove themselves to anyone or anything. Just be single and happy. That's all.

[@visionaerie]

Listening to this hurts.... I guess this guy is saying implicitly that without wars or exploring for young men without sex lives to engage with..... The only other option would be for them is too obsess over pornography, or save money ,hire prostitutes. Listening to his scaffolding of the importance of sex in human society, that's the only other social option left. This is why people join cults.

[@j.d.s.8132]

I wish it was different but it's just not. If you're unable to have a family you're going to search for meaning elsewhere in your life. That's where religions and political ideologies come in.

[@ThreeFiddy1701]

Social norms and family traditions puts far too much pressure on men and women to marry and reproduce. This isn't helping the problem, I suspect.

[@MrPaddy924]

Fascinating discussion. Thanks both!

[@JRay2113]

Dating is like a job application. The requirements are narrow, but the preferences are broad. You can often impress your way through simply by fitting into the narrow requirements.

[@ay2deet578]

So glad I met my wife at 19, been together over a decade, got a little one, having grown together as adults without preconceived notions of what our lifes should be has made us super strong.

[@markpage9886]

They're not mad at women, they're mad at Charles Darwin.

[@superdupajosh]

This quip is very good and I am going to use it in the future if you don't mind 🤘

[@Koroar]

Topics like this need a much more open-minded interviewer. A shame because he's really good.

[@simiancinema2022]

Exactly. She's "not gonna let him get away with it."

[@stephenrioux6821]

She's really good, too!

[@yegekimyeungma]

He was really patient with her. "I don't care about your research findings, I want the world to be like this"

[@IamBrixTM]

?? She was very reasonable. Moments of straying from your point of view doesn’t equate to not being open minded

[@Ecotechnologist]

This interviewer is horrible. Stop putting your personal story into every remark. You’re not statistics. Be more humble it’s so annoying that you just shut down what he says.

[@EMidMSO]

Agree. Not Ash's finest hour

[@ENGRAINING]

that's the "feminine touch" you have heard so much about.

[@PaulAntiChrist]

@@ENGRAININGjust remove the women and give us a man, this is a man’s issue. We need less women’s input on men’s problems.

[@jeanbob1481]

@@ENGRAINING ME ME ME ME ME

[@flocon.]

Great video 👏🙏

[@RandallSlick]

Fascinating discussion and bonus points for cramming the word Eudaimonia in.

[@backwardthoughts1022]

eudaimonia is a poison and counter to consumer culture... challenging it will only leave you more alone and more in pain as the west has no way ot progressing in it.

[@gibbions]

Ridiculously interesting interview! Absolutely no idea of even the term ‘ incels’ - a ‘must watch’ for any parent with a boy navigating and growing up coping with, to me what looks like a very alienating and competitive social environment in teen years. Particularly schools - compounded by relentless expectations and hierarchies from the overly competitive GCSE/A level years. Massive pressure on young people as they grapple with all of this!

[@JohnODonovan1987]

This guy’s entire research area is entirely pseudo science.

[@Koroar]

If you're parent to a son in 2024, you better pray you passed good genetics on to him, otherwise get the grieving process started early.

[@Funglutton]

​@@JohnODonovan1987 as opposed to commenting on the internet without offering a shred of discernible _evidence_

[@carbonarcade1233]

​@@JohnODonovan1987Elaborate.

[@jaythefox]

Agree, let's please at least stop pressuring young people to partner up. Tell them that it's Ok to be single.

[@bluewaterangel]

This helped me understand the bear vs man argument from the eyes of men. Thank you. You’ve given me more to think of.

[@mikearchangel7998]

Yeah the argument is largely falls talking past each other. Its obvious to women to fear a sexual assault and death from a man whereas men just evaluate for death. Bear being the most obvious outcome there.

[@jcransome5616]

She never had any issue being undatable unwanted or alone Her opinion is worthless Just don’t use apps Just talk to nice women nicely GTFO

[@High8Chews]

You sound like you have a lot of hate in your heart.

[@SuperHawk0413]

@@High8Chews How does it sound like that.

[@skylinefever]

Just follow the same NPC normie advice that never worked for you anyway - the interviewer

[@jxcl-8401]

boohoo

[@jcransome5616]

@@jxcl-8401 useless as always

[@HB-bd7iz]

As a person of Colour and gay male.. I often find myself sexually rejected because there appears to be “white preference” that exists in queer culture when it comes to sexual selection. There have been studies on this!

[@m_ru1993]

this is true and it’s connected to anti black racism and the effects of manufactured view of black peoples hyper sexuality, I’ve had gay black men tell me things are easier if they aren’t dating another black man it’s heartbreaking

[@plankton50]

I find it disgusting when I see dating profiles with things like "No blacks, no asians." In them. It's just gross and awful and I wish men wouldn't do that.

[@m_ru1993]

@@plankton50 wow had no idea that was allowed wouldn’t it be flagged on the app for racism

[@plankton50]

@@m_ru1993 Tbh I haven't seen it online for a long time but I used to. I saw it on hook up apps which weren't exactly highly moderated spaces back in the day. Doesn't make that behaviour any less gross though.

[@zoeblake6740]

@@plankton50wow which app allows that?