The Truth About Pumped Hydro

This video was created in partnership with Bill Gates, inspired by his new book “How to Avoid a Climate Disaster.” Find out more here: gatesnot.es/2ZnGCCg
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Credits:
Writer/Narrator: Brian McManus
Editor: Dylan Hennessy
Animator: Mike Ridolfi (www.moboxgraphics.com/)
Sound: Graham Haerther (haerther.net/)
Thumbnail: Simon Buckmaster / forgottentowel
References:
[1] www.irena.org/-/media/Files/I...
[2] www.irena.org/newsroom/pressr...
[3] www.esb.ie/docs/default-sourc...
[4]smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.co...
[5] smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.co...
[6] smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.co...
[7] www.sciencedirect.com/science...
[8] www.sciencedirect.com/science...
[9] www.hydroreview.com/business-...
[10] www.waterpowermagazine.com/fe...
[11] www.sciencedirect.com/science...
Thank you to AP Archive for access to their archival footage.
Music by Epidemic Sound: epidemicsound.com/creator
Thank you to my patreon supporters: Adam Flohr, Henning Basma, Hank Green, William Leu, Tristan Edwards, Ian Dundore, John & Becki Johnston. Nevin Spoljaric, Jason Clark, Thomas Barth, Johnny MacDonald, Stephen Foland, Alfred Holzheu, Abdulrahman Abdulaziz Binghaith, Brent Higgins, Dexter Appleberry, Alex Pavek, Marko Hirsch, Mikkel Johansen, Hibiyi Mori. Viktor Józsa, Ron Hochsprung

[@MyNoNeX]

The Truth about Pumping Out High Quality Videos

[@USSAnimeNCC-]

Ha

[@amalirfan]

Nebula saved'em.

[@Azakadune]

“What is sleep?”

[@moboxgraphics]

You can't handle the truth

[@RichRich1955]

It's funny what people write and get 100s of likes

[@ProfessorSyndicateFranklai]

Seeing footage of the actual area is so much nicer than the stock footage that we're usually bombarded with.

[@v44n7]

still stock footage is quite good in this types of videos

[@RealAwooMachine]

Fun fact: In Slovakia our largest pumped hydro plant Čierny Váh has 7 turbines with collective power of 735MW (6 Francis @ 122MW and 1 Kaplan @ 0,7MW) and head of about 400m. About 83% of our power is produced in 2 nuclear power plants and 11% in hydro plants. Only 5% of electricity in Slovakia comes from fossil fuels. That's one thing I can be proud of about my country. Way to go...

[@GiorgosKoukoubagia]

Nuclear and pumped hydro sounds like a great winning combo for the environment indeed! Too bad we don't hear a lot about your country's success on this matter, thanks for sharing.

[@oskarmartin6486]

That's amazing. I only wish Germany would be this ahead in carbon neutral energy production. Instead we went all in on natural gas while at the same time throtteling renewables and shutting down nuclear power plants. Now we have one of the worst energy productions, in terms of CO2 output, while also being among the most expensive in the world. 🥲

[@leemarcus6123]

@@GiorgosKoukoubagia In news, its mostly negativity that gets all the attention, why post about some country's success when you could talk about dumb climate activist gluing themselves on the highway, or talk about nuclear disasters for the billionth time. Honestly if Slovakia's success were spread, maybe many more countries could be half way on their way to carbon neutral.

[@grissee]

way to go slovaks! my country (Indonesia) is a net coal producer, so that's reflected on our electricity generation, and with neither soviets nor developed countries as our neighbor, putting up nuclear plant is kinda difficult

[@fukkitful]

What about that last 1%, what produces it? 😁

[@tbix1963]

Nice video, having worked in the power industry in system operations for over 3 decades operating 2 pump storage facilities you were very accurate with most of the video. I only found one slight misunderstanding, the pony motors are used to bring the unit up to speed and synchronize the main motor/generator to the grid smoothly in the pumping mode. Once unit is tied into grid the pony motor is shut down. They are not needed in generation mode since you have water to spin the water wheel. Once unit is synchronized in pump mode the air is purged and gates opened, pumping starts the instant the water hits the wheel. At one time there was talk of sea level pump storage being built in NYC and was proposed to use subterranean caverns carved out of the bedrock as the lower reservoir. Idea was shot down but have to believe it might be used in other locations.

[@michaeldowson6988]

I worked on a sewer trunk line once that required crossing a creek and then scaling a hill. Once built the pump pushed sewage up the hill, and was then shut off, as a siphon effect kept it flowing.

[@johnnysystem2579]

Sea or Ocean exchange is exactly what I was thinking. I wonder how many natural locations there are. My first thought was Dover Cliffs in England. There should multiple location in the Americas in a variety of locations. Either way this is good basic tech with minimal operating costs, good efficiency and durable.

[@tbix1963]

@@johnnysystem2579 the main problem with pump/storage now days is the deregulation of the power industry has leveled the prices between day and night. In the past the price extremes between very low at night and astronomical in the day have ruined the business model for pump storage to be cycled daily, it is now being used more now as a source of reserve in emergencies since the difference between day and night costs seldom covers the pumping losses. At best they are typically not better than 67% efficient. There are other situations where greater efficiency can be had but not in a simple isolated pump/ storage hydro plant. With the experience I’ve had in pump/storage, the greatest element when storing energy is the cycle efficiency. Every time I see mention of grid tied electric cars for storage it makes me laugh. Never have i ever seen a number for the charge/discharge efficiency of a lithium battery, lots of other information but not that, oh and you have a limited cycle life, and your going to waste charging cycles helping out the power grid for pennies in exchange. Not something I would ever do.

[@johnnysystem2579]

@@tbix1963 I agree with some points but not with others. The efficiency for LI batteries is freely available, there is even a video done by this channel. Leveling out the day/night cycle would result in massive savings. Where I live we dump power every night in huge quantities. If you understand power then you know the effect on power factor. By moving all consumer power to electric you move the problem to the source and make it that much easier to effect change in the future. No one said this was easy and there is no one solution and I don't believe we will get there on time to stop irreversible climate change but at least one, maybe two generations get to live on earth. After that bend over and kiss your ...

[@tbix1963]

@@johnnysystem2579 over 30 years ago when I first started in the industry there was plenty of dump energy that you could get to the pumps and it was a wonderful experience turning waste energy into a useful product the next day. Unfortunately after deregulation the market I live and used to work in has been modified to protect the reliability of the system ahead of economics. There is plenty of dump energy out there at times but it’s usually limited behind transmission constraints that prevent it getting to where it’s needed. Deregulation took a system that worked and modified it so uninvolved persons could play in its market and make money off of the ratepayers. In doing so system reliability had to be preserved and limiting rules were created to allow the market to function without endangering the reliability of the system to the ratepayers. Just took a peak at the publicly available data from yesterday. For the region with pump storage and the next cheapest region. Daytime $44/MW and next door $34/MW. Night time. $128/MW in the pumping region and next door $44/MW. Very interesting data, from my experience I can tell you that they were likely pumping to restore required reserves for reliability driving the prices to insane levels in that region. Pumping at $128/MW will result in a price in the pond of $191/MW in the pond plus the typical adder of $5 for maintenance. The energy put back into the pond will now need to sell at $196/MW just to break even. In the old days we used to have an in the pond price of $12.4 in the pond and typical daytime prices were between $18 and $38. There was plenty of room to make savings that we passed on to the ratepayers. Today all the savings are eaten away by the overhead of the market and extra involved players that didn’t exist pre deregulation. As for the efficiency of LI I’ve seen numbers posted but never actually put in context so it would be useful. I seriously doubt the numbers they post are applicable to be used for actual economic calculations, hopefully I’m wrong. Just what are the cycle efficiency of LI batteries anyway? Just take the energy needed to charge and the actual energy you get out. I know that for the pump/storage I used to run that for every 100MW we pumped we only got back 67MW and that was after being upgraded to state of the art. For LI you would need to compare the energy into the charger than the energy received after the inverter since the energy into the battery has to come from somewhere and the DC in the battery isn’t very useful until it’s converted back to AC. The efficiency of the battery alone isn’t very useful, you need the efficiency of the entire system used to store and deliver the energy to the doorstep of the plant.

[@michaelmichael3007]

I like what you said : "Not just one solution". Too often people are looking for a silver bullet instead of several solutions working together to solve a problem.

[@rockyblacksmith]

And this comment section is full of them.

[@johnking6624]

That's the trouble. The world is full of idiots with simple solutions to complex problems.

[@mandernachluca3774]

You're so right, hydrogen, batterys, pumped hydro, biomass. Theywillall e usedin some kind of area sooner or later.

[@Kenneth_James]

There is a silver bullet. Its called nuclear. wth

[@natedunn51]

Yeah you need a gun that can fire silver bullets and cartridges and all that jazz

[@florabritannica]

Can "an ungodly rush" be made an official unit for water? Also, that is a beautiful machine.

[@snowstrobe]

The empirical measurement for a hydro-dam flow, Good Friday shoppers' stampede, and a horse pissing,

[@abalakrishnan4152]

Truly a beautiful machine. I love engineering, especially when it comes to renewables, but this makes me love it 10000x more

[@ImplodedAtom]

Perfect name for a metal band.

[@insertyourfeelingshere8106]

That implies the existence of a Godly rush. Ungodly is water flowing down and godly is water flowing up?

[@user-eq9xs5fz9u]

Why not? we already have "fuckton" anyway

[@bartschrodernz]

Good article! In New Zealand, there is active investigation (with $30M to fund the investigation) to use Lake Onslow as a 5TWh storage lake. That allows long term (as in seasonal) storage. Est cost $4B. New Zealand uses about 39TWh a year (before we all go electric), so the storage represents about 13% of the total use. Other solutions will help.

[@kecuthbertson]

I dont think a lot of New Zealanders appreciate the scale of the Lake Onslow Scheme, the total worldwide installed pumped hydro storage capacity is somewhere around 10TWh, Lake Onslow is currently penciled in to possibly be 5TWh, but it could theoretically be up to 12TWh if they go for the maximum possible. We could literally have the majority of the worlds pumped hydro capacity in one lake.

[@slevinchannel7589]

@@kecuthbertson Is Science all you keep yourself updated about?

[@kyh148]

1/8 of the total ANNUAL consumption in one single storage site is insane

[@NathanielMiller]

I'm curious, on Point #1, what's the subsidy comparison measured in per MW, rather than raw numbers?

[@orion1two]

SShhhhh

[@_capr_545]

Don't ask intelligent questions. Just go along with the narrative.

[@NACAM42]

Nuclear starts looking real good when you ask that question.

[@Leggir]

Coming from decades of experience in the oil and gas industry, they're just as reliant on subsidies as anyone, especially since 2016. I don't have a problem with subsidies either way, but the way they are used. For example I worked on a significant compressor upgrade subsidy, entirely paid by the provincial government. A few teams of 20 guys and equipment went around the province and upgraded about 200 each. It was good work and we were paid for it. Now the equipment was supposed to produce less nox and be about 10% more efficient. Sounds good, except the oil companies sold a significant amount of the upgraded units outside of the country. So inevitably the subsidy only padded company coffers and did little for the environment locally.

[@kylesenior]

Yeah, that my my immediate thought as well. He did not refute the statement at all.

[@vedatveziroglu9436]

i must be in an alternate reality where Real Engineering posts 2 videos in 2 days

[@MarkWTK]

let's hope Bill gate's book can keep sponsoring Real Engineering :)

[@chandankuamr8887]

Yup

[@marcusjackson5837]

But do u know how much lobbying cost, pretty sure thats changes subsidies especially with competition. Remember when Saudi oil didn't like American fracking competition? And what also just happened just one year ago. kzbin.info/www/bejne/epbFoZSghqyFjJI They were trying to flood the market and that dropped prices to being free for a full month in the american market due to them using all their ships at once and only so much oil can be refined at a time while ships have to keep moving otjer wise it cost them money. My dude, the subsidies are not the issue when it comes to constant market control globally and constant regional monopolies that want to be the only game in town. Crack open a book.

[@pspicer777]

I like that reality.

[@shadowgod1009]

@@marcusjackson5837 Who are you talking to?

[@XMarkxyz]

That man at 2:13 must have been very careful to not lose his head as soon as he walks away P.S. this series of video about energy storage is the most well done I've seen about this topic

[@kangirigungi]

Ugh. Work safety standards were not so high back than.

[@ronwesilen4536]

He was just drying his hair

[@MinneapolisRaven]

Oh my God, clearly pre-OSHA work conditions.

[@ninjafruit816]

You better hope he never has a eureka moment down there...

[@aronseptianto8142]

@@CaptainBill22 and how does this correlate to a man doing maintenance below a giant spinning wheel of doom

[@lukasgadzijevas7163]

"there's always rain in Ireland" yup... makes me wanna cry ,but then there would be even more water :(

[@sudombd1230]

"Imagine having to pollute the world in order to make relatively short-lasting batteries made from scarce materials so you can store green energy in" - This post was made my pumped hydro gang.

[@dangerous_safety]

"imagine having to excavate large amounts of material and ruin the natural environment to store energy" - Not sure if this post was made by battery storage or pumped hydro because both do this.

[@dairallan]

Elon Musk is in danger of stealing Thomas Midgley Jr's crown as history's most toxic organism. Pushing batteries for green energy storage, pushing his idiotic transport schemes harming viable mass transit projects not to mention there being a good argument that his disruption of the EV market will delay mass market penetration by years if not decades.

[@BrokenLifeCycle]

​@@dairallan ...What? I'd argue that if Tesla did not popularize EV, we might not be seeing a huge surge in the EV market within this generation. I mean, I never expected old-auto like GM, Chevy, and others to come out with an electric car *ever* and take it seriously. The only exception would be Nissan with their Leaf but barely anyone liked that car until the later versions when its range got better. Perhaps Musk did not revolutionize anything, but he and his company definitely made the waves to get the others to hustle, and that's something to consider. And that's how I can summarize Elon Musk: the wavemaker. Whether or not he personally succeeds or fails is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. He's influencing others to haul ass or be left behind whether it's in the EV market, solar, power storage, space industry, internet, and tunnel boring --- whatever. I'd argue that people are innovating faster because of him and it's resulting in newer, greener technologies.

[@dairallan]

@@BrokenLifeCycle The standard product model for manufacturing sees established producers adopt new technology, then leverage the cash stream from high value Early Adopters to fund bringing the line to the mass market. Musk has subverted that cash flow with, albeit clever manifacture of hype, and with no ability to bring EVs to the mass market. indeed established manuifacturers (with often far superior products) have seen failure after failure to entice early adopters and severaly hampered the standard model. Musk has easily added 10 years to EV adoption which was building significantly driven by established players unti lhe "disrupted" the market.

[@porcus123]

It isnt black or white, transportation of eletricity over great distances leads to loses and not every place can build a dam, there are alot of ways to store energy hydrogen production and "hot rock" ar the ones I think have a lot of potencial

[@szeth14]

5:30 PM, when several million electric kettles are put on simultaneously ;)

[@RandomAmbles]

This is actually a really incisive point. One of the ways of reducing energy problems is by smoothing out energy loads. Right now the grid is like an 87 lane wide highway with all the cars next to each other. It has to be wide enough to carry the very worst traffic during rush hour without slowing down at all. If that load can be spread out it would significantly reduce the amount of power necessary to store. One way I've proposed of solving this problem is by offering government subsidies directly to people who log internet-of-things-automated appliances in to an online controller, which would use location and energy data to determine when those appliances turn on in order to spread their loads. This means that clothes driers and dish washers and such could be filled when people are home, but activated to turn on while they're at work, or even asleep. You get your clothes and dishes done for you (to some extent) and even get some money for doing it (which could easily come from energy production savings) and the grid itself gets smoothed-out energy draws. Something similar is being practiced in California, I'm told, but the state-subsidies idea is my own, which I intend to propose to lawmakers once the automated appliance technology is sufficiently developed. As for that... I'm working on it. Similarly, passively heated housing and housing that stores thermal energy will likely flatten that particular curve as well.

[@kimchipig]

My father was an area controller for a power company all his life and he said just this. When 500,000 stoves come on, it takes a fair bit to power them.

[@RandomAmbles]

Technically tax credits, not subsidies.

[@mattj2077]

@@RandomAmbles 00

[@bepropheta6665]

@@RandomAmbles This is already being done in Pennsylvania with water heaters, kind of... Well, with the electric cooperatives at least. With a load control device installed on the water heater, the co-op can shut this off during times of high electric usage. Members who have them, get a credit or discount on their monthly bill.

[@shzhe02]

this is the fourth time I've woken from a nap to see a Real Engineering video uploaded 20 seconds ago

[@RealEngineering]

I’m watching you

[@NegetiveRizz]

🤨

[@MichaelLear]

he is like santa or a stalker

[@lennyfieldy]

@@RealEngineering oh no

[@greatcanadianmoose3965]

I'd close your curtains

[@MervynPartin]

When I worked in the UK electricity industry (before it was ruined by privatisation) I saw the value of pumped storage (during a training visit to the South Western Grid Control at Bristol) not just for peak-lopping but when 2 large generators had tripped in close succession whilst we were there. Dinorwig came up to full generation within seconds and maintained stability of the grid. Very impressed.

[@thomasdavis8117]

Easily the most impressive thing in this video is how closely the predicted wind generation matched actual production.

[@JabelldiMarco]

Not really: centuries of observation give you an incredible amount of data to work with or train your NN; I think any European coastal area could duplicate this; ...and then you add earth observation satellites.

[@lylestavast7652]

the Texas grid ERCOT site has panels for about a dozen key stats which update all day. Well worth a watch - one of them is the projected day output for both wind and solar. Pretty accurate projections, and I say that knowing the time intervals they're using are a bit blocky. Its just ercot and a business domain ending - then look for dashboards. You can do things like watch the fuel mix panel, current day and see what percentage is currently coming from which generation sources at various hours ... pretty decent site and you can see the correlation between prices and such as well. I'm sure as time passes, their increased data set for weather and use patterns will get more and more accurate as well. TX is the largest electricity generating state in the US by almost 2x over FL. Last year they got about 32% of annual total from just wind and solar as a set.

[@TylerWitucki]

That very accurate wind forecasting for the wind turbines had me saying WOW out loud, quite impressive 9:25

[@Thermalions]

I'd be a little more impressed (or maybe not) if I knew what the prediction timeframe was. 5 minutes, 30 minutes, 12 hours. It needs to be sufficient to enable load balancing from whatever is providing the base load generation (whatever that might be).

[@thomas.02]

@@Thermalions there are dates on the x axis, I think we’re looking at a (roughly) one month graph

[@Thermalions]

@@thomas.02 But that doesn't reflect how far in advance that fairly accurate prediction is being done for that month. It's like weather predictions generally - they naturally get more accurate the closer you are to the time being predicted.

[@thomas.02]

​@@Thermalions oh I see what you mean, my bad for the confusion i guess the general rule would be they'd do it as accurate as required say if they need a couple of hours to spin up the backup generators when demand increases then they'd need to predict the wind at least a couple of hours in advance

[@matsv201]

Its not that hard to predict wind turbine power for 5-7 days ahead.. Its to some extent easier than prediction the weather. Also its not that hard to predict how the average wind will be over the next season, we have plenty of data for that. The issue is that predicting is not the same as controlling. While the pump power storage look huge.. in matter of time they can give power, its really just matter of hours, possible a day or two ... But we really need it to last at least two weeks. A other issue is the efficiency. Even with 80% efficiency (and that is really the high end), you really don´t wan´t to run them if you don´t need to. That is.. wind and solar unplanability is not solveable with pumped hydro, batteries or hydrogen. Nothing will work. Also even the largest pumped hydro stations are tiny. 292MW of power is a pittyfull amount. Compare that to one single nuclear reactor at 1600MW, and that is 24/7. The irony of it is that a nuclear power reactor that PRODUCE power is actually cheaper MW per MW than all storage alternatives. Pretty much rendering wind and solar utterly useless.

[@VonSchpam]

2:12 Hi! What's your job? Oh, I crawl under the highspeed whirling death machine and read the meter and record it on my notepad with this pencil.

[@Brian_Friesen]

If he grew his hair just a little bit longer...........

[@GregRobsonUK]

Ah yes, the days before Health and Safety was invented!

[@williamswenson5315]

Two words. Remote readout.

[@rpfeiffa2150]

@@Brian_Friesen he would get free haircuts.

[@JG-mp5nb]

Don’t wear long sleeved shirts.

[@leifcian4288]

With progressive watershed management there could be created a lot of catchments, overflows and spillways with small generators. Would help to protect areas more and more prone to flood and assist in irrigation too.

[@mikebradley4096]

As an engineer with 40 years experience in power and renewables, working on various other solutions, I found this to be an absolutely excellent, balanced and very well informed analysis. I just wish you hadn't entitled it "the truth about..." because most YT videos with that sort of title are full of conspiracy theory, lies, deception and misinformation. But otherwise, very well done. Mike

[@davebauman4991]

Disagree. While truthful, this was wholly incomplete with no mention of any of the preexisting hydroelectric dams that have yet to be augmented by water reclamation pumps. Therefore, the number of storage reservoirs necessary is inflated.

[@ltcuddles685]

@@davebauman4991 you could possibly say this video was on a very specific topic and idea.

[@MrGtubedude]

This guy inspires me to get through college while I’m studying engineering.

[@phineas7423]

Honestly same

[@bartosrobert]

Same here 😂 electrical engineering* 😂😂

[@sallyvanhetten5980]

He inspires us all

[@socas_nic]

He is keeping me away from homework and online lectures🤣

[@GreenTimeEagle]

Godspeed man. I thought I would be able to become an engineer for the sake of the renewable revolution but I found the maths and physics too difficult for me

[@RealisticCookingIRL]

I just want to say, as an Irish man (from South Armagh), seeing someone explain how energy is stored in Ireland on KZbin on such a popular KZbin channel (which has about half the population of Ireland as its subscriber base) makes me feel ecstatic. I feel so proud of my fellow countryman. I love your videos, and I hope your subscriber base will grow, and you continue to tell subjects about Ireland. I had no idea this power station existed in Ireland, and I'm glad I know it now :) I have one question, however. Would it not be beneficial to have one pump for pumping water up to the reservoir, and one electricity creating turbine for water coming down? It seems in my mind that the price of the energy needed to pump may increase in the time it takes to swap directions, and over a long time, would this not be beneficial? I know there's a compressed air system, but would a section/gate redirecting the water to the other system not be more efficient? It just interests me that we could maybe make more efficient decisions about how the water flows through the system in each turbine/motor. For example, a Pelton wheel design may be more beneficial for energy creation, but not good for pumping water upwards. I bet that someone has already figured this out, but with a place with so much wind, we really should be taking more advantage of it. Thx for your videos, they are a massive inspiration to not just me, but my wee cousins and other young people. Iontach maith Brian, you're a saint. Unlike the story of the lake at the top of Slieve Gullion in which Fionn mac Cumhaill had his hair turned grey by a witch, this video about pumped storage provides hope about lakes on top of mountains, and rejuvinates the hope of the future generation. Slán abhaile mo cara

[@oadka]

I have a feeling they might be using a variable pitch impeller....

[@sixstringedthing]

Aussie here, not a hydroelectric engineer but I looked into this some time ago when the climate change denialists started banging on about the "waste and pointlessness" of our Snowy Mountains pumped hydro project, since I had the same questions mentioned here. As with many significant choices on large infrastructure projects, the design comes down to money; in this case, total operating cost over the projected lifespan of the facility. For a pumped hydro station, the electrical generation/interconnection side of things is largely a solved problem that can be budgeted pretty accurately. Most of the complexity/uncertainty (therefore the lion's share of the costs) comes down to hydraulic engineering, "where the rubber meets the road" or more accurately where the water meets the wheel. That "ungodly rush of water" necessary to generate meaningful power requires some insane levels of robustness and safety/redundancy in all the pipework, valves, control systems etc., costs commensurate with requirements and rising exponentially with added complexity due to the engineering time and specialised manufacturing required. More equipment and pipework means more earthworks are required, so capital costs are higher there too. Maintenance over the operating lifespan is also a major concern; basically a fixed cost for the generators, much harder to predict for the hydraulic stuff. Long story short, simpler is better, cheaper, easier to maintain, more economically attractive. All of those considerations outweigh the relatively small efficiency gain to be had by running seperate pumping/generation systems and their associated water handling components.

[@sixstringedthing]

@@oadka I wondered about that too, but I don't think so. The Engineering challenges in building a variable-pitch impeller with that kind of mass that can spin at 500rpm and deal with the forces involved would be.... considerable. Not impossible, but very very expensive. And think of the maintenance costs! I'm fairly certain that the impellers are solid units which are optimised through simulation to be as efficient as possible when generating flow in either direction. Typically the design would lean more towards efficiency in generation mode, since you want to get the absolute maximum out of the potential energy when required. Pumping the water back uphill can stand to be a little less efficient since it's being done off-peak when power costs are cheaper.

[@ValirAmaril]

I'm from Donegal, sure we could go 100% wind, there's bare wind all the time.

[@ffrr4886]

good luck for Ireland

[@markuswurm3535]

As someone working in the hydro energy industry, I really liked and appreciate your video. Not only are the quality and informations top notch, I also liked the more detailed look on the turbines/generators. And most important, it will help to get the information out to the people, that this important technology exists! As in my oppinion, this is a technology that we should usw much more around the globe! Not only because I work in this industrie, but also because I think that it makes much sense seen globaly, to try to catch the energy spikes in the grid with pumped hydro! And get some 24/7 basic energy production with run-of-the-river power plants, which is my more specific sector.

[@cyndicorinne]

I absolutely love your clearly presented equations and charts.

[@pinkgoergefloyd8340]

“Solar and Wind have reached maturity” So they’re renewable and ready to mingle? Edit: You guys are looking into this too much. I just wanna take one of them out for dinner

[@AxxLAfriku]

GAGAGAGAGAGA!!! I watched this video and it is really not that good compared to my perfect videos. GAGAGAGAGA!!! This is NOT self-promotion! This is the reality! This is the world! We are the people! Don't disl****ke my vide*****s, my dear oscae

[@murci6891]

@@AxxLAfriku wtff

[@godassasin8097]

@@AxxLAfriku ok

[@godassasin8097]

@@AxxLAfriku i disliked

[@taylorc2542]

It's unfortunate that Bill Gates has co-opted this channel. It's just a religion now.

[@kubectlgetpo]

So we not gonna talk about the B-roll at 2:15 with a dude chilling under a massive spinning turbine with his head 12 inches away from it?

[@ABrit-bt6ce]

Elfin Safety would love that setup :)

[@Wanted797]

Yep. Don’t stand up.

[@eds6889]

Caught my eye as well.

[@tn15_]

2:13

[@lahmyaj]

Lol that’s his hiding spot at work 😹

[@nwjlions]

First video I've watched on this channel. Very impressed with the effort and depth of the video. Nice job!

[@Ancient_Hoplite]

Quality of these videos just keeps getting better and better, fair play.

[@Martin42944]

0:37 - minor note, but subsidy cost per KwH would be a better and more accurate comparison. It would drastically change that graph and I wouldn't be surprised if biofuels are actually the most heavily subsidized.

[@williamchamberlain2263]

Those US maize subsidies are pretty hefty, I've heard.

[@michaelpapadopoulos6054]

If I remember correctly, he said that more renewable capacity was installed. For renewables at least, the main cost is installation. For me the best comparison would be subsidies per new kw of capacity installed times the load factor.

[@williamchamberlain2263]

@@C4pt41nN3m0 some of those skilled do seem to be inordinately ... fond ... of a good corn-cobbing.

[@grae_n]

Wouldn't cost per KwH be misleading in a different way? Subsidizes tend to be given to new electric generation moreso than maintenance. He mentioned that 75% of new electric sources are renewable.

[@aurorawaxwing5866]

That makes sense to use absolute over per kwh because to really get into where the subsidies are going it would become to long to fit into the video and per kwh would be even more misleading in own ways.

[@colonelgraff9198]

2:12 That dude, that hair, and those propellers spinning overhead

[@PnlBtr]

No PPE either. Simpler times.

[@3dpyromaniac560]

@@PnlBtr manlier times

[@ceilinglight1413]

He's gonna get a haitcut

[@ChristianB90]

*OSHA has entered the chat*

[@PinataOblongata]

@@3dpyromaniac560 Pointlessly riskier times. Being maimed so you're no good to anyone doesn't make you manlier. Sure, some OH&S stuff goes over-board and is annoying, but lowering accidents and deaths in general across a number of types of work is only a good thing. Insurance crap stopping stuff from happening - now that's another issue.

[@kstricl]

Deep in the heart of Alberta's oil production fields (traditional, not sands) sits a large reservoir that is being converted to pumped hydro. The reservoir was built in 1965 and the plans are to increase capacity for generation from 355 MW to 900 MW. The operator is closing down its oldest coal fired plant 150 km away this fall and will be closing its newest and cleanest coal plant at the same site (10 years old) in 4 years. I believe there is still a place for natural gas fired plants in the renewable future, but we definitely need to reduce them to the minority and get them to the point of being backups, instead of primary sources.

[@James-sk4db]

Energy = life, The more energy the higher the standard of living and the less poverty. The less poverty the less unnecessary death. Deliberately choosing to not use the most energy dense per £ invested sources is amoral. It is choosing someone elses life over your feelings.

[@kstricl]

@@James-sk4db Are you arguing for or against renewables? Gravity battery or lithium ion?

[@James-sk4db]

@@kstricl Im arguing against anti-fossil fuel, but i'm all for renewables, so long as they are cost effective, hydro-electro and geothermal come to mind as well as nuclear. If you have £1bn to invest in energy you should use it to use it to generate the absolute most energy possible as the more you produce the less scarcity there is in the rest of the world.

[@brillo9]

Great video and information. From working in the hydro industry, it's great to see this kind of useful information shared! Thank you!

[@davidwayneprins]

I live an hour from one such facility. Ludington, Michigan has been in operation nearly 50 years.

[@TS6815]

Came here to post this!

[@TheMCLand]

In another post, I asked if it works in freezing weather, but if it works in Michigan then the cold must not be a problem.

[@Captain-Axeman]

Hermonie voice : How can it be nearly 50 years?

[@rabidmoonmonkey1090]

I live an hour from turloc hill, the facility he referenced in the video.

[@Sinyao]

How are your property values? Is it an eyesore? That seems to be one of the arguments people make against them lmao.

[@blacx2]

You should take a look at the "El hierro hydro-wind plant" in the Canary Islands, it uses an old volcanic caldera and sea water.

[@RealEngineering]

Oh for real? I tried to find cool examples, but that didn’t come up in my search.

[@Gornemant]

Indeed, the El Hierro 100% renewable island has been huge for a while, said to be the best example of such a solution, and it is.... Because it's a massive failure, the whole thing is so far from the claimed 100% renewable that it is laughable. No wonder it doesn't pop up anymore besides being used as an example of what such a "solution" brings: - Massive price increase in power cost - Blackouts - Still more than 50% of all electricity is produced by diesel generators This is exactly what this solution brings and is that perfect example of what _NOT_ to do.

[@Gornemant]

@@RealEngineering www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/11/10/2812/htm Easy to find information on that, but some pro-renewable sites have removed all mentions of it, I wonder why...

[@julianshepherd2038]

@@RealEngineering for a visit Cruachan (built1965) is a cracker and the climb up the Ben (Cruachan) is dramatic and almost lunar.

[@VerifyTheTruth]

El Heirro: What Kind Of Pumps Do They Use? Wind? Perhaps They Could Also Include A Battery Of Freznel Based Solar Condensation Pressure Boilers, With Hydraulic Pistons, Check Valves, And Inline Drop Points, Similar To A Combination Of Heart Pump Mechanisms And Transpiration, To Supplement To Pumping Operations? In Proper Applications, It Can Not Only Basically Combust Water Instantaneously, But Distill It As Well, While Producing Excess Extractable Energy. Fo Realz.

[@keithplymale2374]

I was involved in a construction job several years ago that put pipes underground for a reason. To check the system they pumped water through it before it went into operation. At the man holes you could hear the roar and feel the ground vibrate 100 feet away.

[@lmechb3305]

Great video. On the compressed air system, I understood this to be for rapid loading (in seconds) of the generator as pumped storage of this era was to help grid with demand of kettles going on with popular tv show advertisement breaks. The compressed air system enables the turbine and generator to be spun at synchronous speed (generator locked to grid freq and driving the turbine as a motor). When rapid demand is made the water inlet can be opened and immediately load the generator, no delay in synchronisation. Most sites refer to this mode of operation as Spin-Gen.

[@shanelmurray3448]

In New Zealand hydro the compressed air system is referred to as tail water depression (TWD) which allows the rotor to spin unimpeded. I think on this mode they can generate reactive power to counteract imbalances from inductive devices.

[@mitchell16]

Really interesting video, it's a shame we haven't built any others in Ireland since the late 60s even in spite of the issues you mentioned in your video

[@jeffhuff1000]

Pumped storage are mainly installed to support nuclear stations by consuming electricity when demand is low and generating when it is high. Their main function was to regulate the grid when the demands is low as you can't regulate a nuc plant down in output. The pumping plants were built as part of the nuclear project. The main issue stopping more which plants is the economics. There is no real economics vehicle to pay the plants for regulating the grid as an independent plant storage from a nuclear plant. They get paid for just straight power production and that doesn't provide a reasonable return on investment

[@Pique147]

Ireland's geography is a major hurdle. Not enough of the right kind of hills. Plus, considering the way the country does budgets, (cough, New Children's Hospital) we'd spend more on it than ITER are spending on their fusion reactor.

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@laredobenjamin7438 recent reactors can go down to 25%, which still isn’t totally off. Back in the ‘70s, you were lucky to be able to bring it down to 50%, 75% was more common if any at all was done. Though I agree with your point about baseload, yet the original point Jeff made about the build planning to be to support the nuclear project was true. It was projected to need a lot more storage with a majority-nuclear grid. That’s where the political will for pumped hydro came from. Even though they can be useful for any baseload supply today. Not to mention, absorbing the unused power at night is only part of it. Another contributing factor was being able to absorb _demand spikes._ Even if you’re able to ramp up your nuclear from 50 to 100, you don’t want to have to cut off supply while it’s rising. It’s demand-shaving, like most grid scale batteries are offering now, and like water towers and gasometers always allowed. Again, as part of the political idea in the ‘60s and ‘70s of using nuclear for basically everything, not just baseload, they figured they’d need to be able to absorb pretty large demand spikes. Thus, pumped hydro was presented as the solution.

[@jeffhuff1000]

@@laredobenjamin7438 you are correct that it "can" be done... however, it takes a long time to change load and stabilize thereby making it so you need an alternate method of consuming the electricity... hence pumped storage...

[@peglor]

There was a group a while back called 'The Spirit of Ireland' that wanted to dam off hydraulically isolated valleys facing towards the sea on the west coast (They found a few suitable sites) and use them as reservoirs for pumped seawater. Nothing came of it because every square mm of land in this country is owned by someone, and even if they're sub-subsistence farming (Couldn't survive on farming income without EU grants) it - they would still delay any construction for decades or indefinitely in the courts. Irish people are not fans of taking people's land - even if they're extremely well compensated for it.

[@krselj]

Can you really compare abolute values invested subsidies into fossil vs renewable?? It should be price per kwh generated not the entire industry.

[@julianatlas5172]

Why did fossil received any subsidies at all? The gov is paying the companies that are destroying the planet :/

[@rodchallis8031]

Even trickier is the definition of "subsidy". Some would just take the amount in cash grants as subsidy, and draw the line there. Others would take a look at the entire costs of fossil fuels paid for by government-- including the cost of clean ups and disaster compensations, and consider that part of the whole subsidy picture. There's little doubt in my mind that if the full costs of environmental clean ups various governments have paid for over the years showed up directly at the gas pump, we'd have been either peddling bikes or driving electric cars for decades already. The only thing that makes fossil fuels so attractive, price wise, is that it's probably our biggest "social program".

[@gabbar51ngh]

@@julianatlas5172 renewables aren't much better either. Nuclear is the way to go.

[@ProfessorDingus]

@@julianatlas5172 agreed, also a carbon tax to account for the negative externalities of fossil fuels would level the playing field until renewables become a real solution to feed our industrial energy hunger.

[@speak_the_truth5380]

@@julianatlas5172 Define destroying the planet. I want you to take a beach or mountain vacation only to see a wind farm. I want you to give the ok to have a wind turbine set up in your back yard and a water storage unit installed above your family home? Everything is fine until it directly impacts you or your property value. Or better yet do your part and live without electricity, gas and oil. Take your whining to the polluting counties that are the real root cause of this so called "global warming" instead of fixing a problem that has little to do with the western world. www.ventusky.com/?p=33;-126;1&l=pm25

[@fenrir834]

i just understood why just listening to yo voice feels so good. there is some background music in this video that is very soft.

[@kennarajora6532]

I had to put my volume to the max to hear it, but yeah, it's there.

[@PanzerDave]

The only downside to a salt water reservoir system as mentioned is the greatly increased maintenance required as well as a reduced service life. I have sailboats and the ones that use raw water cooling require more maintenance than the fresh water cooled boats. Additionally, the cooling systems wear out sooner than the fresh water systems. I am sure that it can work, but the costs will be higher. Thank you for yet another excellent video!

[@orppranator5230]

You basically just said “salt water bad” in like five different ways.

[@suspiciousskepticism6306]

I wonder if they could desalinate the water during the conversion to make up some of the lost efficiency somehow... or get the added benefit of turning salt water to fresh water before it gets pumped. No more extra maintenance due to the salt and its drinkable...🤷‍♂️

[@ZeeCaptainRon]

imagine the number of salt water organisms that will be killed as they are pumped back and forth through a salt water system. Then the amount of maintenance keeping the barnacles from growing and clogging it up. I'd say there were lots of downsides to it.

[@Think_Inc]

Hey! Both Real Science and Real Engineering have released videos on the same day!

[@skyvenrazgriz8226]

I always knew australia was a war torn country, must be the Emus again! They are fighting the coal exports or so ;P

[@edwardanderson4678]

I was a Bush Walloper many years ago and I shot a number of roos and emus that tourists thought were friendly until the animal concerned gutted them with one kick, some men and women were not killed but they weren't ever going to have children. Most of the kids died very quickly.

[@RandyTWester]

@@edwardanderson4678 Yeah they usually show polar bears on TV after the blood's been rinsed off.

[@sailorbob74133]

Could you please provide the source for the FF vs renewables subsidies?

[@tpobrienjr]

Thank you for a good exposition on pumped energy storage. My area doesn't have enough nearby good hills for pumped energy storage, but we have plenty of wind - and hot air from politicians.

[@MVargic]

With proper voltage, even over 500 km of power lines can have negligible losses.

[@Oscar-vf9tg]

Such amazing production quality. I've been watching you for a long time and it's always a treat when a new video comes out! Concise and clear with enough details to get a good grip of the topic. Keep up the good work!

[@veronicathecow]

"Hydrogen looks poised to seize long duration energy storage". It's been poised for 50 years now. Now hydro using old mines.... You can also extract heat from the returning water for process or district heating.

[@stefanr8232]

If the fuel cell is inside a home you can use (un)waste directly as heating and create sterile drinking water.

[@andrewscott8892]

You can also incinerate trash to boil water thus turning it a steam turbine, we can almost eliminate land fills

[@bra1nsen]

50 years ago, climate wasnt part of the equation

[@Alexander_Kale]

Co2, when pumped back into the ground, takes up more space than the stuff it was mined from. You will run out of old mines before you make a meaningful impact on the problem, and most surface or close to surface mines cannot be used for this at all, for obvious reasons...

[@thepostapocalyptictrio4762]

It’s like they say about fusion.. “Hydrogen’s the wave of the future, and it always will be”😆

[@rickrudd]

Smith Mountain Lake in Virginia is a great example of a pumped storage hydroelectric lake that provides a tremendous amount of energy for peak demand while maintaining a largely constant surface level. Check it out. Only fluctuates a couple feet under normal conditions.

[@Snuggle093]

Have you considered making a video on biomethane as a storage option? It's being pursued actively in my home country (Denmark) as a way to use the existing gas grid as a storage option for peak load hours, that also contributes to emission reductions in agriculture. Main purpose is to use it for industry and transport - but storage option is an important secondary benefit.

[@cheaterman49]

8:40 Hahaha, the kettle peak! Them tea-drinkers :-D

[@williams.779]

Even as an interdisciplinary engineering major, I completely forgot that you can just store potential energy like that 😂 but it makes sense, y’know.

[@jasonreed7522]

I took a class on energy systems, people have some dumb ideas about energy storage like in mechanical kinetic systems (flywheels), blocks on hills (rail storage), and heating a large block for later use. And the worst offender is lithium ion batteries which degrade by cycle lives to need replacement every 2-3 years. But then there are some good methods like electrolyzing hydrogen for later and pumped hydro.

[@imperatorcaesardivifiliusa2158]

@@jasonreed7522 why do you need peak density for a lithium ion battery when it’s for the grid. Use recycled lithium ion batteries smh

[@altrag]

@@jasonreed7522 Not sure what you see a "dumb" about any of those ideas..? Flywheel is probably the worst of them because of the massive friction losses, but there's a lot of work on reducing that via maglev systems and the like (yes the magnets would induce a loss of their own, but as long as that's less than the loss due to friction in something like a ball bearing wheel, its still a net win). Of course you're never going to scale a single rail car to 292Mw or whatever the number was, but there's also no reason you'd have to - just have a whole fleet of them covering a mountainside. Perhaps not the most aesthetically pleasing structure in the world but entirely doable. All of those methods have drawbacks yes, but so does pumped hydro and so does hydrogen electrolysis.. and so does not even trying and just continuing to burn a shit ton more fossil fuels. And every individual power station's needs will be different (political, geological, etc) so having many options available with different benefit/drawback tradeoffs is never going to be a bad thing.

[@Bird_Dog00]

@@altrag Modern flywheels don't need to have massive friction losses. You can run them in a vacum chamber on magnetic bearings. The loss is below 10%/day. Doesn't work for long-term storage, but for short-term storage and compensating fluctuation in the grid, it strikes me as an interesting option. The flywheel can switch from storing to releasing energy in a fraction of a second and unlike a battery, it can provide some grid inertia. Not sure how well it scales though.

[@altrag]

@@Bird_Dog00 Battery systems like Tesla's installation in Australia can switch in milliseconds. Speed definitely isn't an issue with batteries. As for scaling.. that's not really _hard_ per se - just build a bunch of them and hook them together. There's definitely going to be an engineering limit for building bigger and bigger individual flywheels, but not really for building as many as you want in a row. That's mostly a cost and land use issue.

[@birgerjarl4391]

Other problems with wind other than storage: 1. 15 year lifespan, creates lots of waste 2. Makes lots of noise 3. Kills birds

[@WeRlostAndFound]

7:37 made me and my sleep paralysis demon chuckle more then it should have

[@everything9118]

Man. With amount of work u put in. U deserve every bit. Never compromise with quality. Your channel will grow more and more.

[@danielhdidouan]

@15:25 You used some of my research group's findings in paper [11] - Oli is gonna have such a big head when I tell him his "fantastic paper" was featured XD

[@RealEngineering]

Been using that paper for a lot of this energy storage series. Primary reference paper really. Lovely graphics.

[@johnuferbach9166]

nice :D

[@danielhdidouan]

@@RealEngineering he said it "made his day"! If you need any more contacts with researchers on this, subscribe to my channel... (sorry I couldn't resist) but drop me a message and I can try link you with people :)

[@cyrild.3205]

Thank you for this very documented work !! I have especially appreciate the scintific article of your [11] bullet "Projecting the Future Levelized Cost of Electricity Storage Technologies" : a bit complex but readable and VERY interesting

[@philipklein6847]

I would really like to see a break down of Energy Vaults's solution using cranes and stacked blocks in place of hydro

[@Pastori1988]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3iqgJ16lLSnd68 There you go.

[@hgbugalou]

Renewables + nuclear is the only logical way forward. I really wish people would get educated about nuclear energy and radiation.

[@TheRepublicOfJohn]

Yes! It may be the most important public education campaign in human history!

[@mrmobius]

I get that Nuclear plants are inherently safe, but the waste is a long-term nightmare.

[@recklessroges]

@@mrmobius Thank you for providing an example for the comment above yours. (fission fuel cells can be used it other types of reactor, so it isn't long-term waste, it is "future fuel".)

[@Its-Just-Zip]

@@mrmobius which is why we need to actually work on a plan for that, probably at the same time we work on the climate change one. Thorium reactors are an important step that should be pushed forward because it's less dangerous in the waste aspect. And that long term storage site that the US started building but has never used would be nice to get running

[@manojpatra2840]

You can reuse the waste moreover use can use much cleaner and cheap thorium, convert it to uranium from the energy by waste reusing but setting up these types of combination plants require a shitload of money So no one wants to invest in building one rather people are focusing on hydrogen

[@flynnthedemon934]

Overall a great video, but I would like to point out that the subsidies statement is quite misleading, as coal produces a lot more power. If you calculate it as dollars per TWh, for coal you get around $10.19M/TWh, and for wind you get around $89.51M/TWh. (These numbers are based on 2019 numbers from ourworldindata.org/grapher/global-primary-energy for the energy generation, and the subsidies are sourced directly from the video)

[@sterlingsilver6461]

Amen dude, was thinking the same thing!

[@threelowlys]

There is certain agenda being pushed from this channel, to me, it's no longer 'True Engineering' but a marketing channel. It's really a shame though.

[@johnsimpson99]

Valid point, and something I had wondered about when seeing that in the video. From another point of view: Why are there still subsidies for coal? If anything, there should be penalties for it's continued use.

[@castratedbob]

@@threelowlys Yeah if he's taking sponsors from eugenicists like Bill Gates he can go get fucked. Enjoyed a lot of older videos but he seems to be on an agenda as an ideologue now. It is a shame.

[@alphazuluz]

@@johnsimpson99 do you realize how much of the world depends on coal and fossil fuels just to survive? Do you realize how many products are made from fossil fuels? If you ended them tomorrow, or started penalizing people for using them, it would destroy the economy and cause mass starvation. This isn’t combing from some rando on the internet. The world economic forum claimed that something like 10-50 million people would die if we immediately abandoned fossil fuel use. People like you have these grand, utopic ideas that are totally disconnected from reality. It is clear that you have zero idea how things are made, or how the world works.

[@ScherzEffect]

Where are your sources? I am curious to see where you attained that energy subsidy data near the beginning of the video. It is very interesting.

[@Pixilated]

Sources in the description.

[@Rkcuddles]

Thank you for this video as always. It’s often a treat to find them on topics I am interested in. The one question I was really hoping you would answer...why water? When the power is flowing, it seems we could be lifting anything we want and just letting it back down when we want that energy back. So why use water? Ok you don’t want to suspend giant boulders cause extracting the potential energy has to be safe and non destructive... But can’t we increase the plants maximum capacity by just suspending heavy things in the water that we are already working with? Everything is already in place, just load up a barge with a bunch of rocks and thorn the whole thing into free extra capacity for the system. I am sure I am missing something obvious

[@kekero540]

Because water is abundant, heavy, and the technology for its use is basically the same as any other hydropower setup so the expertise for its use is cheaper than a novel design.

[@Chopper153]

You're missing everything. Water and wind are fluids, that's why we can use pumps and turbines to store/release energy. Please see the mass flow rate in a typical hydro turbine and calculate how many boulders you'll need per second to generate that kind of electricity.

[@Rkcuddles]

@@Chopper153 I get that we don’t want to rebuild the entire infrastructure to use boulders. What I am suggesting is you put an old cargo ships on the water and load it up with weights. Wouldn’t that increase the total gravitational potential that we are storing and give us a way to get more out of the system? I feel there is a flaw in my thinking, just can’t think my way to find it.

[@Chopper153]

@@Rkcuddles How will floating a heavy mass on the top lake increase potential energy? Potential energy depends on height of water body, not on things floating on it.

[@mukansamonkey]

@@Rkcuddles In order for a ship to float, it has to displace the same weight of water as the ship weighs. So if you want to float a thousand ton ship, you lose a thousand tons of water (at the same height in the reservoir). Ultimately you aren't raising and lowering the weight of the ship as far as you are the water.

[@patrykwesoowski8873]

Two medium sized nuclear power plants and Ireland is safe in terms of electricity. And space taken by them is laughauble in comparison to water reservoires required to operate to cover the needs of a country.

[@bearcubdaycare]

Though, of course, you'd have to build pumped storage for the nuclear power. That's what pumped storage is mostly used for, at least on my continent.

[@bee5440]

@@bearcubdaycare the continuous operation of plants would help reduce the need for that, although cooling pools and just water supplies for plants in general takes lots of water

[@aronseptianto8142]

again, the right tool at the right time and place Ireland need both base load power generation and fast acting power storage we need both, not one or the other

[@johnuferbach9166]

@@bee5440 continuous operation doesn't help you when its night and nobody wants the energy... if you only have slow reacting nuclear powerplants you need a ton of storage aswell or you will have to discard most of their power most times of the day

[@daafip]

Nice that ur releasing earlier on Nebula

[@RealEngineering]

Trying to be better about that. We have been behind schedule for a few months, but gradually catching up.

[@twaddington]

Pretty excited to find out that there's a closed-loop pumped hydro project being planned two hours East of Portland, Oregon along the Columbia River Valley. It's called the "Goldendale Energy Storage" project.

[@eds6889]

Add in flywheel storage and these sites would be much more effective. Like you said multiple types of storage are needed.

[@Werdapple]

2 videos in under a week That’s what I like

[@zachb1706]

0:35 That doesn’t take into account how much each source is used. Sure, overall fossil fuels might get more subsidies- but per MWH?

[@kevlarandchrome]

How dare you ask for important contextual information!

[@Alexander_Kale]

As of 2010, estimated subsidies per unit of energy produced were about 6 times higher for solar. That would not have looked quite as good in the video, I assume...

[@calamityjean1525]

@@Alexander_Kale 2010 was over a decade ago. The price of solar, and the subsidies for solar, have gone down significantly since then.

[@donotstalkme]

This is the main thing that makes me skeptical when listening to any green energy advocate: the amount of intentional misinformarion. I was also really surprised to see this "fact" at the beginning of the video and went looking for the real number.

[@ticthak]

Factor in over TCO- subsidies for installation (and maintenance) ve. subsidies for installation, maintenance, AND ALL FUEL USED. There's no comparison, fuel is a continuing cost of operation.

[@felixyusupov7299]

One overlooked pump storage option is the Salton Sea and Pacific Ocean in California. Pump water out of the Salton Sea at night using geothermal energy and produce hydroelectric power during the day by adding Pacific ocean water to the Salton Sea. The surface area of the Salton sea is 343 square miles. There is a 225 feet of elevation difference between the Salton Sea and Pacific Ocean. They have already bored a hole in the mountain between the imperial valley and San Diego to transport fresh water. They could drill another one for this battery storage idea. Another advantage is you effectively reduce the high salinity of the Salton Sea while improving air quality of the imperial valley by covering the entire dry lake bed.

[@THEDEENPITCH.]

I would suggest if turlock hill can use the world largest water pump which is about (4000kw) to pump the water back into the reservoir. Thanks in prospect.

[@tomcanning3808]

The pumps used at Turlough Hill are about 80,000 kW each.

[@deformercr6680]

The animations are STUNNING!

[@insertyourfeelingshere8106]

You’re stunning

[@deformercr6680]

@@insertyourfeelingshere8106NO YOU'RE STUNNING!! lmfao you made my day.

[@TylerSolvestri]

@@deformercr6680 You are stunning

[@TylerSolvestri]

And Brave 😎💅

[@puirYorick]

Can't we all just get along? This is a great option where the topography is suitable but no single option will make ALL of the others realistically go away totally any time soon.

[@ljkking622]

It’s about power but it’s political power not electricity.

[@ppapshrek4485]

Even if we could, even if we respected each other's opinions. Would we be able to fix our global climate.

[@ljkking622]

@@ppapshrek4485 that’s if the climate needs fixed. Way to many lies and inconsistencies to be sure.

[@puirYorick]

@Robert Sears Very well then, perish together it is... Free will and all that good stuff, eh?

[@puirYorick]

@@ljkking622 What humanity needs to do before our era comes to an end in one way or other is to figure out a way to fashion our human ecosystem into a more flexible enduring type that's able to withstand whatever happens with the planet... at least until we figure out how to make the jump into being a true space-faring species. As George Carlin and others have intimated, The Earth doesn't care. It will carry on regardless. It's only *our* survival that's at stake. There's probably not enough time or resources left to use before we move past too many tipping points to keep going down blind alleys with mega projects that don't lead to meaningful success. We're doing stupid things like wasting precious helium gas on party balloons. We're still burning off methane from landfills as a nuisance in some places without getting any work from the power. The list goes on. Being rival fanboys for various sorts of systems due to personal or national politics or employment/educational affiliation is NOT going to allow a rigorous scientific conclusion to be formed.

[@martinstent5339]

The sea water thing sounds good. There are a lot of places on coasts where the sea has eroded a hill and created a cliff. Cliff-top storage sounds like an easier thing to set up. And I know there will be trouble with seawater and the pumps and turbo-blades, but I think they are solvable.

[@Sciguy95]

I'd love to see you do a video on concentrated solar power. The idea of using mirrors to reflect the suns light and heat water to produce steam, so that we can generate energy is really cool.

[@metanevets91]

I feel like all the comments currently in chat haven't had enough time to actually watch the video

[@Think_Inc]

Obviously. It was uploaded less time ago than the length of the video.

[@recklessroges]

3.1x speed is a thing.

[@metanevets91]

@@recklessroges I believe that only serves to prove my point.

[@requited2568]

While there will always be people who comment just from seeing the title, most of the comments stem from his opening statement that renewable energy is cheaper than traditional power generation without doing the math and showing the proof. It may even actually have become cheaper with the increases in technology but he has provided no way of knowing and the one graph he supplied may as well be comparing apples to oranges. Both are fruit but have different components making up the whole and an analysis would only have taken a couple more minutes and silenced at least some of his critics. It always comes down to actually doing the math and starting at the beginning.

[@julianshepherd2038]

It's 2021. Folk don't need facts to have opinions. Are some sort of swivel eyed Communist?

[@20_percent]

damn the sponsorship was smooth af, that's how you do it so it blends with the video

[@johndee2990]

Yeah, and how you lose hundreds of subscriptions if not thousands

[@hebl47]

@@johndee2990 Losing conspiracy nutjobs isn't really a big loss.

[@johndee2990]

Trusting a guy who wants to eliminate crypto like Bitcoin, who wants inefficient green tech yet was fully supporting the nuclear power industry when he was still in competition with Mac (think 90's) A guy who is tied up with African vaccine scams and contaminations from his "relief" efforts.. A guy who expressed interest in depopulation.. Yeah I wouldn't tust that guy if he was just some random neighbor, so why should I trust him if he has money? Epstein had money, and he was a demon in the flesh.. and there was less to research about that guy and his thoughts until finally he shot the bed.. So trust known liars for all I care. As far as I am concerned, dismissing your own best interest is what nutjobs do.. not guarding against a possible threat to one's livelihood

[@20_percent]

@@johndee2990 hmm 🤔

[@bencoad8492]

yea its gross bill gates really ewww

[@philoso377]

I have one question here. How much kW hour output for each km^3 hour discharged versus kW hour per km^3 hour charged?

[@mikebikekite1]

Do you have a link to the paper (mentioned at 15:25) on levelized cost of storage?

[@jamesdavison6290]

Thanks! You answered many of my long standing questions about pumped hydro. Energy storage is the greatest challenge for the new generation of engineers. Your videos are powerful way of disseminating this information and leave me thoughtful for many hours after I have watched them. Superior work!

[@bennyl7224]

Nuclear has pretty incredible energy storage

[@patrickalthaus7992]

I'am from switzerland. Thanks to the alps we acually had nuclear reactors and hydro power / pump storage for decades. So less a problem for us i think : )

[@pdeuart1306]

Most of your electricity is from France

[@marcosteiner3619]

@@pdeuart1306 I think you forgot to substract the exports from that number... But it is true that we run our pumped hydro plants with nuclear energy from France

[@jerrymoxlow8249]

How many gallons of water would you need to run a ( which one would work best ) water turbin for your home with battery backup?

[@Tomm9y]

I think you are correct about the solutions. I believe the opinion in Ireland is currently focused on investment in battery storage technology. It seems a significant issue with pumped storage is the initial cost of the investment. Turlough hill is a huge success and an awesome site, having visited it myself. Even the development of wind farms face hurdles where the funding and regulatory approvals are out of step. Some of this needs to come at a state level, as the innovative Shannon scheme and Turlough hill did in their time.

[@zakiducky]

Bruh, 2 videos in one week? Make sure you sleep lol

[@MrLancar]

Man, you've become really skilled at making these look good. As someone who's been a subscriber since the early days of this channel, I'm impressed to see the development. Keep up the good work!

[@the_ttr]

I think you missed fact that PHS do need electricity to run / pump up and that electricity is higher than generated. If Ireland would need to build 8 (or 6 groups of 8) new, it will also require massive increase in power production to run(charge) those PHS, and more PHS capacity you add, more (exponentially) power supply you require.

[@karlgustafson179]

Great video! Great channel! I have a facility like this near me in the US (Northfield Mountain), and toured it pre-911 days. It was impressive. That said I always understood water was pumped up by cheap electricity during low demand times, and released to generate more valuable electricity during peak demand times. But I’ve always thought of it as a means of generating money for investors, rather than adding net power to the grid. While I now understand pumped hydro more as a “battery,” and see the value in that, I am still left with the question of whether the amount of power generated truly offsets the amount of power necessary to pump the water into the storage area. A civil and intelligent answer to this would be appreciated!

[@timcrawford2221]

I think the electricity used is about 80% of the electricity generated.

[@iasonkostellenos8341]

It also has to do with they way the power grid works. It's not like a water tap, where there's pipes with water constantly running through it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rpnboGWljbecn9E This video from Wendover, beautifully explains how the power grid works. For example, in England they used to (not sure, if they still do) have to buy electricity from France during the ad-breaks of the most popular tv shows, because a big part of the population would get up and make tea at the same time, which consumed more electricity than England could produce. That's why energy storage is such a huge issue right now. Hope that helped!

[@Eugen_Belyaev]

Why does it not occur to anyone to compare the energy consumption for lifting water with the energy generated by falling from the top. After all, then, humanity will receive a real "green"! The famous experiment of Pascal B. had to abandon the pumped storage tank, replacing it with CLOSED WATER CIRCUITS that provide a CIRCUIT of water!

[@mukansamonkey]

The mistake you are making is thinking of it as "storing when cheap". What storage like this does is "stores when excess is being generated". The supply to the grid has to be adjusted continuously. Feedback loops that work in less than a second, in some cases. So when a gust of wind increases avaliable wind power, there are three choices. Other generators drop their output, some electricity gets diverted to storage... or the windmills disengage their blades and lower their output. Basically if you want to capture as much energy as possible from wind and solar, you need storage. The grid can't use erratic inputs.

[@Eugen_Belyaev]

@@mukansamonkey You need to start with definitions: You are completely confused! First, give clear scientific definitions of MASS, ENERGY, GRAVITY; in accordance with the logical law of IDENTITY! Energy is not something tangible that you can store and accumulate! Concentrate, stop raving!

[@dinandv1178]

i love your vids, can you do one on delta wings sometime? id be very curious to know how the j-35 drakens and the mirages went obsolete and why they worked

[@dsdy1205]

Millennium 7 has very good videos on the delta wing and its adoption, abandonment and re-adoption and the underlying dynamics / physics reasons for it, worth a look!

[@dezedaar8009]

Can you do one on liquid air storage? It seems to me that liquid air storage could solve most of the storage problems. It doesn't use a lot of toxic materials to make it, it actually cleans air and it doesn't need a lot of space.

[@Alexander_Kale]

If that refers to co2 storage, then the problem is that co2, even in liquid form, takes up more space than the fossil fuel it was produced from. Meaning we will run out of storage space before we make a meaningful dent in the problem.

[@mennovanlavieren3885]

@@Alexander_Kale Googling "liquid air storage" redirects to "Cryogenic energy storage" which makes more sense and explains the working principle better. Storing large amounts of compressed air is not cost effective because of the pressure vessels required. Storing a cold liquid at atmospheric pressure benefits from the square-cube law when scaling up. But I still doubt it can compete with electric batteries.

[@johndee2990]

If Cleaner Nuclear Reactors were "allowed" by the weapons industry then this would be how some reactors would generate enough electricity to run Refrigerator units and pumps as as sink heat before a possible meltdown.. But you know, depleted uranium make Bigger holes in stuff

[@Alexander_Kale]

@@mennovanlavieren3885 I am sorry, are you really suggesting we build giant refridgerators, requiring constant power input, to store the ginormous amounts of co2 produced on a global scale in an active system? What do you think this is, Star Trek?

[@mennovanlavieren3885]

@@Alexander_Kale Haha, no of course not. It has nothing to do with co2. It is about temporary energy storage, not production. And I think the technology cannot compete with bateries in the long run, but I might be wrong on that and it is intetesting stuff.

[@rusle]

I noticed that it was mentioned 0.8 efficiency is that the total efficiency including pumping up water then and reuse the water for the turbine?

[@xcw4934]

Would it be feasible to upgrade regular hydro electric dams to pumped hydro? Build a reservoir at the bottom of the dam and install a generator that can also pump water uphill. Currently hydro simply stops when grid demand falls below supply but in future if renewables account for a much larger portion of the supply can regular hydro do more than simply stop generating and start storing power?

[@JonoSSD]

Imagine depending on fossil fuels to power your electric grid. _This meme was made by Brazil gang_

[@rfldss89]

Bro don't be overly confident, you guys are destroying rivers and forests to build your hydro dams

[@jekoki01]

Big dam destroy humans and nature hehe

[@caorusso4926]

@@rfldss89 this problem can be easily solved just by finding a better place to put the dam, the itaipu dam, the biggest brazilian dam, its placed on a very good place as its as precarious the condition before it. Would be a wrong if we build one on the amazon river, but thanks God that Brazil has many rivers

[@FastSloth87]

@@caorusso4926 LOL, Belo Monte says hi.

[@caorusso4926]

@@FastSloth87 i see nothing wrong on that, the land is from the federal government and every possible action was taken

[@joecummings1260]

The problem with these things is, the way the media present them as ideas and totally glosses over the details. Most of the public seems to think that pumped hydro is feasible with a small stream, five acres of pond, and a 10 or 15 foot change in elevation. Yeah maybe if you,re powering one energy-efficient home

[@patemblen3644]

Everything passive is big. Everyone needs to get their head around that. Fortunately, the earth is big too.

[@johndee2990]

Yet surface area is an invaluable resource, so how much is too much depends on the size of the country.. Ireland is small, especially compared to any North American Countries.. So how much farmland? Fishing shores? Traversable land? What is telling is that Nuclear power was ignored, because of the uneasy control the weapons industry has over it.. That Bill "I want to be the Antichrist" Gates is a sponsor, just adds the "You need to Unsubscribe Now" Cherry on top

[@duanenavarre7234]

In the areas with water shortages use compressed air, as compressing air pulls moisture from the atmosphere. Thus why air compressors have air dryer units to keep them from rusting out. The Amish in US are currently using old propane tanks for low pressure compressed air storage. The missile system adjacent to the radar system I worked on in the 1980's had a 10,000 psi dud ejector so it might be a good model and the most efficient air compressors are axial flow at north of 90%.

[@xeridea]

Another way to reduce need for storage is encourage less use during peak hours. My EMC does billing such that energy is always cheap, but certain high temperature days during summer months you get penalized for excess (over 3KW) use from 2-7PM. It varies, generally somewhere from 0 to 3 days per month in summer. This significantly reduces need for running expensive peaker plants. It is easy to do, a big energy suck is dryers, that use over 5KW. The cost for power in the summer is about 40% cheaper in the summer than before they started this program.

[@zapfanzapfan]

2:12 Workplace safety on the level that cost my grandfather a leg.

[@Indpendent01]

yeah dont sneeze!

[@azmc4940]

Everyone will become dependent on minerals from highly unstable regions. To scale up renewables even further, we need massive new mining projects fast, and lots of them.

[@davedelecto4148]

Or we could keep using the coal we have, and invest in nuclear for the future, but that would make too much sense

[@kevlarandchrome]

@@davedelecto4148 You there! Stop making rational suggestions!

[@azmc4940]

@@davedelecto4148 I'm on board with nuclear, but air pollution from coal is a real killer. Coal fired plants should be decommissioned ASAP.

[@azmc4940]

@@daleharper5361 I agree that climate change mitigation is too narrowly focused on CO2. Since the actual goal should be to prevent the planet from warming. However the goal seems to more and more become to reduce CO2. Which is one way to prevent the planet from warming, there are other ways too however. Personally, I'm more in favor of orbital megaprojects such as constructing orbital shields to block infrared light. A project such as this could be implemented by corporations in cooperation with governments. most crucially, it would not require behavioral change in all individual people, and the totalitarian restructuring of society to affect that behavioral change.

[@johndee2990]

The reason the US looks so green in Sat images is because of the Front and Backyards of the typical American household

[@rickrys2729]

Nice video. RethinkX suggests overbuilding solar and wind to reduce the need for storage, suggesting it is cheaper to curtail or find uses like generating hydrogen with extra power. Extra power is likely in the spring which has good sunshine, strong wind and lower heating or A/C loads. Some existing hydro plants took 3 years to fill. Here in the North America we have 35 GW of hydro in Quebec that would match nicely with the massive offshore wind potential.

[@Cerberus984]

Would you agree catastrophic weather related events are increasing? Do you agree putting all your eggs in one basket is risky? Now consider long term durability of renewables in an ever more volatile environment. One hurricane, tornado, or even wildfire vs countless square miles of power production. Now compare it to more traditional power stations protected by a concrete building in those same volatile weather events. Don't gamble everything playing roulette on the rare one tile of green.

[@rickrys2729]

​@@Cerberus984 A grid with distributed renewable generation is well suited to be reliable and improved recycling will allow perpetual maintenance. Renewables have won the competition for lowest cost generation. Large central power plants can work if they are carbon free, safe, and low cost, but current fossil and nuclear plants don't meet those requirements at low cost. We do need a highly interconnected grid with open markets and hardening of transmission and distribution especially in weather prone locations.

[@jeffhuff1000]

Just as an FYI, Turlock's size is on the small size for pumped storage units. As you correctly indicated, the capacity is limited by vertical drop and reservoir size. There are much larger installations that exist.

[@DavidRN85]

Yup. Take a look at places like Raccoon Mountain Pumped Storage in Tennessee. Can generate up to 1,6000 MW, takes 22 hours to deplete and primarily refills using nuclear or regular hydro power.

[@GwynRosaire]

Environmental concerns halting projects to address environmental concerns. Sounds like the paradox of our time

[@ultrascreens5206]

Exactly lol its like ‘dont use plastic its bad, use paper instead as it degrades’ Then ‘stop using paper you’re cutting down too many trees’

[@BrentTJo]

@@ultrascreens5206 In grad school (environmental engineering) we read a published research paper on the environmental impacts of paper vs plastic. It was interesting and broke down the number of plastic bags needs vs one paper and the electrical requirements to recycle both etc. Still came out nearly even, but the educational message that there is no magic bullet solution and improvement is the key.

[@Apistevist]

You've committed a fallacy when discussing the subsidies of each industry. The fossil fuel industry is 3-4x bigger than renewable, so it's more intellectually honest to consider what % of each sector is subsidized.

[@LMSI998]

Fossil fuel industry is more than 4x bigger. But I thought that too, because fossil fuels are dominating the energy sector and renewables are a fraction of that. Moreover, fossil fuels are highly taxed.

[@stankossovskiy816]

13:30 For the cost of 950 Mil and power of 292 MW 8:29 not including the cost of wind turbines and other power sources will be the same as 9 Billion for 2 GW of a modern nuclear power plant. Probably better to go nuclear.

[@Minuz1]

You ok having every nation on world having access to nuclear power plants? Iran would like you to sign this petition.

[@stankossovskiy816]

@@Minuz1 This is the question of Proliferation, it is a huge and convoluted topic where I am not strong at all. You better tell me if it is economically or environmentally not viable and doesn't stand a chance to either traditional fossil fuel or green energy. Besides that, we don't even need to dig into proliferation at all. I have just read wiki article Nuclear power in Ireland, it is said nuclear fission energy is prohibited in Ireland. Since the video is about Ireland, the case closed.