The Truth about Space War

[@becausescience]

Amazing discussions happening down in the comments -- you all are definitely super nerds. This one was hard to make, but I really liked how it turned out. Also, give it up for Matter Beam, who is currently demonstrating exactly why I talk to them in the comments below. They should make a show! Thanks for watching, and here's the ultra-space-nerd website I mentioned at the end: www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/ -- KH

[@mdavies97131]

Because Science My thoughts immediately after watching this video are about just how effective drone-carrier style war platforms would be, since it would externalize heat production from weapons fire & combat drone maneuvers. As long as the ship itself could vent heat from incoming fire as a primary focus, maybe even including emergency maneuvers such as a consumable heat dump (water or other heat absorbing agent used to absorb heat then dumped out an airlock/port)

[@luci1st43]

As I watched this video, I had to wonder about space Mecha anime, valverave mentions heat saturation as the mechs main weakness, and majestic princes' large scale space battles seem accurate too. I would really like your opinion on the how realistic these shows are.

[@matthew6667]

What about plasma weapons in space? If a ship fired more of plasma round instead of a laser bolt, what would the difference be on that?

[@MatterBeamTSF]

Thanks! ------------- mdavies97131 Due to inefficiences being multiplied from the reactor to the generator to the laser weapon, including all the power transmission and cooling losses in between, and then passing through energy losses with distance and at the laser/armor interface, the rule is that the heat you receive from the enemy will be small fraction of the heat they or you will have to deal with internally. For example, to heat you up by one megawatt, you can expect them to have to handle 10 megawatts of waste heat internally. Also, ablative armor is designed to absorb the laser energy and vaporize instead of conducting it into the spaceship. This is the same as ablative reentry heatshields: the Space Shuttle interior did not get hot despite the ceramic tile surfaces being eaten away at thousands of Kelvin. Heatsinks are useful for short bursts of power, but over even short periods of time, the mass of radiators that can handle the heat load becomes smaller than the mass of heatsink you need to handle the heat.

[@cherrydragon3120]

Because Science so could we use weapons that emit microwaves to heat up enemies from thousands of kilometers away?? Like literaly turning their space ships into a microwave~

[@TheNorthlander]

This seems to justify the "Space Submarine War" concept to me. Your enemy is far away, you can't see them. You need to plan carefully but act quickly. Dodging is barely an option. And your biggest fear isn't the vessel exploding but a slow death. In a submarine, that's drowning. In space? Cooking. It's like the mirror of submarine battles, isn't it?

[@Arthor32]

Yeah I was thinking this as well. It seems a lot like what I imagine submarine battles to be.

[@scottmantooth8785]

simply disguise your ship as a giant space rabbit and no one will be the wiser

[@BonDieu617]

Nw if only your heat signature wasn't detectable from halfway across the solar system, making stealth really really hard :p

[@BigDictator5335]

You see Ivan, if we have periscope on spaceship we can look out from under space.

[@spartanwindrider6506]

@@BonDieu617 It can be a variation of silent running - cool running. You retain all heat instead of radiating it out into space so that you remain undetectable, but risk the inside of your ship slowly rising in temperature once you no longer have heat sinks available. And then you can name a Jamaican bobsled team after it.

[@OrderoftheWarlocks]

Play Elite Dangerous with flight assist off all the time and you'll rewire your brain for space physics.

[@tmboz18]

I turned it off and was immediately like, never doing that again.

[@OrderoftheWarlocks]

Go practice in an asteroid belt

[@EdwardChan.999]

Space Engineer is another good choice

[@Mad_Alyx]

Lmao I’ll turn it off and on during combat but all the time nope

[@Justsomeoneyoucouldhaveknown]

Complete credit to those who can do that, still working on it myself. Crazy fun

[@ThrottleKitty]

Without even watching this, I can guess what a space war would be like. "Nothings happening, I can't see anything... Nothings happening.... Hmmm" **Everyone dies instantly**

[@Kalorag]

They will have sensors of some or diferent kinds, but yea, I can see that happening lol...

[@ThrottleKitty]

Well, if you detect them on your sensors than you can escape and not die! =D You still would probably never actually see the enemy or a single attack though.

[@imscary2]

yep

[@doombaboon4713]

That's quite like real war in a way - poor infantry getting ruined by artillery miles away, AFV's getting smashed by supersonic guided missiles that arrive before the sound of their engines, buried bombs at the roadside just deleting people driving back to base.

[@theespatier4456]

Throttle Kitty Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it’s... ... ...

[@geoffk777]

One of the best space combat novel series is "The Lost Fleet" by Jack Campbell. It explores a lot of realistic issues such as logistics, supply and repair, but one of the most interesting problems is relativistic sensor delay. Put simply, the enemy can't see you until your reflected light reaches them. So, if you're 90 light minutes, away, than they can't detect you at all for 90 minutes. You can see them, but your images are from 90 minutes ago. So all long range battles are fought with uncertainty of what the current actions and positions of the fleets will be.

[@izziewolf2834]

Its like a game of Battleship but in space

[@heresjonny666]

Yes! And I also like that he talks about the speeds engagements happening at 1. Meaning that only computers can fire at the right time, you just try to set the ships up with pre set manoeuvres and 2. That moving so fast causes relativistic effects that makes targeting even more random. He also talks about how space stations are militarily pointless because you can just hurl rocks at them to destroy them as their path is completely predictable, but that also long ranged engagements are also pointless because of how much time you end up having to see the incoming projectile and change course to avoid it / intercept it with point defence weapons.

[@maxk4324]

Expeditionary Force by Craig Alanson also has some great depictions of how relativity factors into space warfare

[@TeagueSizemore]

I'm glad this got mentioned. There is so much material on both the theoretical and fictional aspects of space battles from near term to far future aspects that an entire channel could be dedicated to the topic. I would definitely subscribe if that channel were to be recommended.

[@generalrubbish9513]

@@heresjonny666 The way he writes planetary invasions is also really cool. For one thing, all ground-based anti-ship weapons have to be buried and concealed, because if you just had big-ass railguns or missile silos sitting out in the open, the invading fleet could stay well out of their range and methodically pound them to dust. Same thing as with space stations, except worse because even stations can have some capability to dodge kinetic projectiles if they have enough advance warning, which happens several times in the books. And speaking of kinetic projectiles, it really does make sense for them to be the main and pretty much only weapon used in orbital bombardments. Nukes are expensive, complicated to build and maintain, and can potentially leave nasty nuclear fallout which isn't ideal if you're planning to keep the planet you just conquered. Kinetic projectiles, on the other hand, are literally just big ol' telephone poles made of solid metal, which when launched at relativistic speeds (a trivial thing in the Lost Fleet universe where ships routinely travel at up to 30% lightspeed) can easily hit as hard or even harder than nukes but without causing any nuclear fallout. They also don't need any warheads, sensors, maneuvering systems or engines, which not only makes them all but impossible to jam or shoot down unless you physically divert or vaporize them, but also means they can be manufactured directly on board your ships if you have the time and means to stop and strip-mine some nearby asteroids. And I also love that he points out how silly and impractical the concept of "space fighters" would be yet still finds some limited use for them in low-orbit or space-to-surface operations, like escorting shuttles filled with troops down through atmosphere where capital ships can't go due to being too large and unaerodynamic.

[@kaijukaiser6036]

Gunnery Chief: This, recruits, is a 20-kilo ferrous slug. Feel the weight! Every five seconds, the main gun of an Everest-class dreadnought accelerates one to 1.3 percent of light speed. It impacts with the force of a 38-kiloton bomb. bomber that is three times the yield of the city buster dropped on Hiroshima back on Earth.That means Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-bitch in space. Now! Serviceman Burnside! What is Newton's First Law? Serviceman Burnside: Sir! An object in motion stays in motion, sir! Gunnery Chief: No credit for partial answers, maggot! Serviceman Burnside: Sir! Unless acted upon by an outside force, sir! Gunnery Chief: Damn straight! I dare to assume you ignorant jackasses know that space is empty. Once you fire this hunk of metal, it keeps going till it hits something. That can be a ship, or the planet behind that ship. It might go off into deep space and hit somebody else in ten thousand years. If you pull the trigger on this, you are ruining someone's day, somewhere and sometime. That is why you check your damn targets! That is why you wait for the computer to give you a damn firing solution! That is why, Serviceman Chung, we do not "eyeball it!" This is a weapon of mass destruction! You are not a cowboy shooting from the hip!

[@andreasdill4329]

best physics lesson ever.

[@becausescience]

Serviceman Chung is named after Winchell Chung, the main author of the website I plugged at the end of the episode! Seriously, that website is so good that Bioware used it when making the ME series, and added in his name as a special thank you easter egg -- KH

[@brandonjustus6821]

If you think about it, shouldn't Earth have been hit by all those stray shots during the final battle in ME 3? I'm surprised that Earth wasn't flat out destroyed after that.

[@kedolan4992]

Never let a little logic get in the way of a good space fight, though! (unless you're playing a hard sci-fi type game, then by all means call it out for it's BS).

[@Ariescz]

+Brandon: Pretty sure all the stray shots were from small fighters or frigates, so they probably burn up in atmosphere. Large projectiles from dreadnoughts do not miss, as the gunners learned from Serviceman Chung to not eyeball it.

[@radicalxedward8047]

Radiation being the only way to lose heat is why I loved the Star Trek voyager episode where they explained that with power offline the ship gets HOTTER because there’s no way to get rid of excess heat quickly enough.

[@FalconOfStorms]

Very nice. I like that Voyager was sometimes the most scientifically accurate Trek so that they could create hardships and obstacles in their epic space camping expedition.

[@mikewong2440]

@@FalconOfStorms Voyager but they have dedicated close defenses and crew armor.

[@Thetravelingmonke]

Ah finally real science in a game

[@Dack.howaboutyou]

@@Thetravelingmonke i believe he was talking about the tv show, and as an aside, i noticed that in Strange New Worlds Memento Mori episode they basically do the same thing while in a space battle requiring them to disengage many subsystems (trying not to spoil Season 1, episode 4, since i think at least half of that first season is surprisingly good; worth watching).

[@DrShaym]

There's also the issue that if somebody fired a laser at you, since it moves at light speed, you would never see it coming until it already hit you. If you live in the Star Wars or Star Trek universe, where faster-than-light travel is possible, you can use this to your advantage. You could come out of warp ten light minutes away from your target, fire a laser, then warp to some place nine light minutes from the target but at a different angle, fire another laser, and keep doing that until you have lasers firing at them from ten different directions, all timed to hit at the same time, and then you can warp away before the lasers hit, so you will be gone before the enemy even knows you were there, and they have no chance of firing back and don't even know what direction you came from or left in.

[@spacejunk2186]

Hitting a target would also be harder because of the long distances. The time a laser needs to travel to your target becomes relevant to the point where you need to aim ahead and hope your target did not change direction.

[@dennisklomp2361]

Space junk sooo just like in an airplane battle or naval battle? I'm quite sure that we have the capability of calculating the lead needed. The trick would be silent scanning, accurate speed measurements and pretty amazing aiming systems. But that just means the continuation of naval warfare technology in space

[@dennisklomp2361]

Actually I think a more accurate analogy would be a submarine aiming its torpedos at an unsuspecting freighter same technological principle would still apply though.

[@nd9361]

Actualy in the Star Wars universe it can take d long time to jump to light speed because you have to plot a course that won’t let you hit anything and you wouldn’t be able to change without slowing down to normal speed

[@mattmarzula]

Dr Shaym you fucked that one up. Change lasers to light drive homing torpedoes and maybe you have a working concept.

[@alexanderpoole1630]

I think a lot of the weapons they use in Star Wars are actually plasma based which will travel a lot slower than the speed of light

[@dimitris2936]

Yeah i was gonna say that.

[@markevans1618]

Yeah they are "pseudo lasers" just called lasers for the sake of simplicity for the general population of not just in real life but in lore as well. Its basically a deadly game of paintball. Its cheaper and more practical to create plasma bolt weapons than real laser systems in SW. However there are true laser weapons although they are expensive and require a lot of energy and space and usually always used for punching through heavy armor where you may have air superiority. Otherwise it takes too long for a laser to burn through armor which could just be blasted to pieces with a heavy plasma turret at a fraction of the cost and space

[@youraveragerobloxkid]

and also could be generated from the excess heat of the ships. just get some mechanisms that concentrate heat

[@luzifershadres]

Yep. They also engage at close range beccause the star wars universe developed jammer to disturb the Aiming computers of the ships, forcing fleets to engage close (I think around the begging of the clone wars). Also do to gravity pullers your ship might get pulled unintentionally into a battle out of hyper space. Bigger ships are also that heavy Armored bombers are needed.

[@renhaiyoutube]

Yes, plasma is actual matter which has quite a bit of mass and takes quite a bit of energy to accelerate. However a direct impact would be super deadly

[@liviousgameplay1755]

Me: Misses Shot Meanwhile, in a galaxy far, far away... Obi-wan: If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could- AAUUGH!

[@FranseD]

Stray plasma

[@Helios9826]

Not possible. Remember, it happened "A long time ago", not just "In a galaxy far, far away"...

[@self-satisfiedsmirk5544]

@@Helios9826 That opening sentence is simply meant to invoke a sense of whimsical wonder like all fairy tales that use some variant of that phrase. But, even if we assume that it is meant to be taken literally, we still have no frame of reference for it. A "...long time ago..." relative to what? You could argue that since we are the audience, the opening phrase is made relative to our time/perception of time. But, there are plenty of stories where the opening narration gives no heed to the audience, and the audience is essentially a passive, third-party viewer.

[@nicolaj990]

"Once you fire this hunk of metal, it keeps going 'til it hits something. That can be a ship, or the planet behind that ship. It might go off into deep space and hit somebody else in 10,000 years! If you pull the trigger on this, you are ruining someones day! Somewhere and sometime! That is why you check your damn targets! That is why you wait 'til the computer gives you a damn firing solution." - "Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son of a bitch in space!"

[@mr.voidroy6869]

@@self-satisfiedsmirk5544 Id like to think that star wars are the lore of the milky way. An ancient precursor civilization that has been collapsed to a point where it is impossible to find relics from that age.

[@salsamancer]

Future space tech is going to give us bad ass air conditioners

[@marksebree5218]

Something that he did not mention about cooling a ship, abet one that has its own drawbacks. Controlled ejection of a warm or hot gas or fluid carries heat away from the ship, acting in a similar manner to evaporation. Downside: the most likely gas to use is your breathable atmosphere, and the most likely fluid is water (which tends to accumulate anyway). Air tends to be hard to replace, especially when someone is trying to punch holes in your ship. These means that there are effective limits to how much you could cool a ship in space.

[@ericcao4829]

@nochtczar transforming heat from your apartment into energy for the power grid is the sci-fact version of going green

[@peaceo100]

@@marksebree5218 or you just use metal

[@achtsekundenfurz7876]

> bad ass air conditioners Am I the only one to think that "bad ass air" sounds like farts? "In space, all farts are silent."

[@OldSkullSoldier]

@@ericcao4829 I know it's 2 years, but... only by moving heat from hotter to cooler you can generate energy (thermodynamics). In space you could: - try to catch some (not 100%!) of radiated energy to make eg. electricity. Generally even if you cover whole ship hull with such "thing", you will get very minimal amount of energy. Something like photovoltaics pointed into the ship working on infrared light. - try to waste some energy to increase way more temperature in the radiator, so that you cool down due to radiating way faster. Effectively: heat pump. But probably radiators would need to be hundreds *C to be effective. In such case to be stealth you would need to transfer heat from one side of ship to the other and be heat-invisible only from some directions.

[@Vastin]

True 3D battles are hilarious. In Homeworld I used to warp my fleets into a tetrahedron array around enemy fleets to flank them in all three dimensions and confuse the hell out of them. Good times.

[@NuclearCharm]

Neat

[@StarlitWitchy]

Oooohh what's homeworld?

[@Vastin]

​@@StarlitWitchy Somewhat older space opera RTS game. Pretty much the only one with entirely 3D ships in a full 3D battlespace. Homeworld 3 is finally in full production after quite a few years, so there may be a new one out soon - but the original was great. Tricky though. While the interface was very well designed, most folks find it difficult to adjust to fighting in real 3D, but they kept the economy part of the RTS simple to compensate.

[@westcoaststacker569]

@@Vastin The scenes and music reminded me a lot of the new BSG. I really enjoyed playing Homeworld. Had to replay half of it once I learned how to take over enemy ships properly.

[@Dancorg]

@@Vastin There's a new game called Nebulous fleet command that's allegedly similar to homeworld in combat mechanics, but I've played neither so can't confirm it :p

[@cielweiss8288]

This is why I enjoyed Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Ships organized in fleets thousands of kilometers apart, forming battle lines and fleet formations, firing lasers at each other. They even got the thrusters right, having ones at the front of the ship for actual reverse thrust, as well as thrust on the top, bottom and sides of the ship.

[@AlexTekle]

along with how incredibly common it was for most of the soldier to die gruesomely, being boiled alive in their ships. that brutal ova quality.

[@navi4181]

Let's not forget the fool who tried to turn his fleet 180 degrees and got it destroyed completely.

[@ara8692]

Why would you have side thrust if U can easily turn a ship along the smallest axis of momentum

[@alexanderzippel8809]

I mean it still only makes little use of the 3D aspects besides huge walls of ships. But yes, it definitely gets things right in regards to distance, gruesomeness of space battles and other aspects (like how stealth technology would probably make most type of scanners almost obsolete and scouts are needed

[@mrbigglezworth42]

@@alexanderzippel8809 Then what? Technology advances so well that the arms race between stealth tech and scanning tech has some mad lad just decide to go old school and get actual eyeballs on target to verify if there really is an enemy fleet and not just false positives on a screen? Then BAM, we’ve gone full circle and the age of the dreadnought returns.

[@dieface12]

Mass Effect mentions heat all the time in the lore. The Normandy has expanded heat sinks so that it can avoid giving off heat and remain undetected, and guns don't have ammo, they have cooling systems, which in ME1 slowly cooled, while in ME2 and ME3 they had detachable heat sinks, providing an ammo limit. They also take the concept of a railgun and ramp it up to 11 - the shots you fire are the size of a grain of sand, but they're fired at relativistic speeds to deal massive damage.

[@paavobergmann4920]

I like the idea of the heat sink-camoflage, as the lore explicitly states that it works only so long until you have to release the accumulated heat, at which point the Normandy flares up like a star on any sensor. So if running silent, you better stay away from any trigger, or any other energy-intensive system. Keep you gob shut and glide along....Also the concept Idea is nice: store the heat in liquid metal, spray the metal overboard as fine mist to provide a lot of surface for radiation, then re-collect it by magnetic fields. Could work. Also, I thought guns do have ammo, but the real concern is heat management, which provides a much narrower limit for sustained fire, hence ammo is not mentioned, but you have to change heat cores like crazy.

[@RamdomView]

Too bad the cutscene artists didn't talk to the lore writers.

[@Apophis40K]

i also remember reading about the heat problem in big battleships and how that limits their rate of fire.

[@lichkang8610]

Paavo Bergmann The guns use a block of metal as ammo and each bullet is just a tiny grain shaved off that block. I’m assuming this allows for millions of bullets so it’s practically limitless.

[@dieface12]

@@lichkang8610 Basically, yeah. At the very minimum, any given mission would never deplete the ammo block in the gun, and considering the versatility of Omni-Gel, I wouldn't be surprised if they could easily fabricate new ones and dissolve the old ones back into gel when they got back to the ship. Still doesn't explain why you gotta find heavy weapon ammo in ME2, though... if you can reconstitute thermal clips, why not heavy weapon energy sources? Can't be that much more complex... and if you're just buying them off of Cerberus's budget, well, buy a bunch of heavy weapon ammo too - the stuff's invaluable against stronger bosses.

[@FatNinjaWalrus]

Super informative, as always. Thanks, Science Thor

[@FrostyFrosto]

If he’s science Thor, wouldn’t he have a science Mjölnir?

[@deathvai364]

@@FrostyFrosto thats his magic pen

[@IantheCripple]

@@deathvai364 that is just wrong ,so very very wrong, lol

[@Слышьты-ф4ю]

​@@IantheCripple did you try to lift his pen?

[@Dolphin665784]

Spaceship: *Shoots gun* 38,000 years later... *Hits a Exterminatus button*

[@dangerclose5853]

Exterminatus; kid tested, emperor approved...

[@0d138]

...that was a xeno planet anyway

[@eviljesus84]

@@0d138 "The Emperor protects" ...his planets from rogue projectiles fired by his own fleets

[@xaphaniariel2797]

Any proper spaceship has the potential for exterminatus level destruction. Just tow some sizable rocks and drop them down the gravity well, where they do weight something. Orks do it constantly

[@jesussaucedo8133]

Ender's game does explain this. When Ender is training his troops in the battle rooms, he takes advantage of the "going forwards facing backwards" technique.

[@westcoaststacker569]

Babylon 5 iirc had fighters that spun within the thrusters. The new BSG also had them do strafing runs by turning the fighters while moving forward.

[@Giomancer]

@@westcoaststacker569 The glorious Starfury! Engines mounted on x-wings with nozzles in both directions made for snap 180° turns without changing vector. *THE* best space superiority craft of the younger races (aside from the Minbari, anyway).

[@westcoaststacker569]

@@Giomancer Came out shortly after I bought my first home and was not able to watch at the time. I need to binge it now. Thanks for the clarification.

[@dturpin2638]

"Captain, the enemy is around us somewhere" "Excellent, fly the white heat radiating flags of war."

[@hvn6666]

U got a good eye

[@baka_geddy]

France In Space

[@badbeardbill9956]

There’s one sci fi universe where surrender is announced by deploying radiators.

[@ieuanhunt552]

So there was a point to the Death Star having a vent into space. Mandatory heat management.

[@becausescience]

YES, GREAT POINT -- KH

[@themetalstickman]

Correct. The engineered flaw was not the port itself, but the fact that it was large, straight, unshielded shaft directly to the station's main reactor.

[@Beegrene]

The engineered flaw was that the reactor would blow up if it was hit while charging. Galen Erso didn't make the exhaust port that led to the reactor. That was just sloppy engineering that was fixed for the Death Star II.

[@strangeworldsunlimited712]

The line is literally a "thermal exhaust port", so... yes.

[@silverinkwell5998]

yep

[@sevenproxies4255]

In the MMO Eve online, moving wasn't so much about "dodging" the laser beams themselves, but more about moving your ship faster than the tracking speed of the turrets targeting you, so they would miss or just wing you.

[@moguldamongrel3054]

Seven Proxies Oh good ole transversal

[@professorvaudevillain]

Transversal velocity will save your life!

[@Mohammed8778]

but then again that doesnt make any sense. imagine you had the strongest flashlight ever. and then you point it at the moon in a way that you see the beam (a far stretch i know). now you move your wrist very fast. now imagine the moon very far away. the distance between the moon and the flashlight determines the speed of the projection then (geometry). Now imagine how fast the moon would have to go around the earth so you cant follow it with your flashlight anymore. (also imagine the earth is a dot and/or you an shine a light through it). With this picture in mind, i dont see how a turret could move slowly enough to no capture a fly-by ship in kilometers of distance. it just has to move so little to cover so much distance.

[@professorvaudevillain]

@@Mohammed8778 Smaller class weapons like those mounted on frigate and destroyer class ships don't have that issue. Cruiser class ships (the next size up) can hit all but the fastest frigates and destroyers. From there it starts to get absurd because the ships and weapons get so much larger. Making turret tracking slower while a speedy frigate is still flying 3-6 km/second. That is unless the target is sufficiently away but still in range of your weapon. The smaller the orbit, the higher the "transversal velocity". Basically if you fly a small ship in support of a fleet against larger heavier hitting targets then you want to orbit close to avoid most of the damage. Until they deploy drones, which if you're not careful will catch and kill you. They don't hit real hard but enough little guys swarming you will bring down almost anything.

[@MrHotcocopuffs]

Except in real life it doesn't work as a good defense since it is much easier to move a turret a couple of degrees than it is to do course changes. The turret tracking speed is artificially induced in the game, in real life a computer assisted gimbal laser would be able to track you all day long with no problem. The only way you could dodge one is to sit in a dead zone which would probably be quite small.

[@atomf9143]

I can see two ways space battle could develop- 1) Cheap, unmanned drone swarms piloted by a few small command ships to provide long-term direction. The drones would have an onboard AI, but the command ships could provide long-distance maneuvering calculations. These drones may utilize gravitational slingshots or pincer maneuvers to rapidly close the gap between them and an opponent as well as avoid targeting. 2) Large, shielded craft that can duck into the upper atmosphere to cool down while containing a lot of wide-range kinetic weaponry like nets, pellets or just junk ejectors to clutter an opponent’s orbit or path with dozens of what are essentially bombs. Additionally, lasers would be more likely used to redirect an opponent or make them burn fuel instead of simply heating or burning them. I think the absolute speed of objects in space will be the greatest utilized factor, because when something the size of a videogame controller made of super-cheap materials can impact with the force of dozens of explosive warheads, that tends to become very alluring to any prospective commander who needs cheap weaponry.

[@wooblydooblygod3857]

Combined arms is the Victor of all wars

[@zestybeelzebub]

I honestly kind of think the 1st of the 2 theories is more accurate as the 2nd would need to utilize constant intelligence that, in times of war and with the difficulties of space, would be very hard to predict. It could work in conjunction with the first, being used as a defensive measure, but I don't think it would end up being a significant, key factor in terms of the entirety of space warfare. Defensive, definitely, but not offensive. If heat dissipation is the largest issue, I actually think we will use largely kinetic and/or torpedo like weapons as laser based weaponry causes much more heat on a per shot ratio. That all being said, I definitely agree with you on the absolute speed of objects being unchanged unless a force acts against it definitely being a determining factor in space warfare. I've always imagined there might be some conference in the future (if we ever get there) where we ban the use of solid projectiles being used against static(-ish) targets using the gravitational slingshot method we use nowadays. We know of ways to increase the speed of something *without* using any external force besides that of nearby terrestrial objects, so I've always imagined we'd utilize this and use something similar to the 'rods of god' and a much, much more advanced relay system. Still, that runs into the issue of constant intelligence like your 2nd theory. That's why I think your 1st theory holds the most merit overall, imo, and holds the most plausibility. One theory of mine I've always speculated came after watching the show The Expanse. If we have the ability to calculate the trajectory and likely route of the target in the orbit of a celestial object, then we'd have a pretty good idea of where it *might* be if it hadn't made another maneuver since the first trajectory estimation. In this aspect I think it kind of resembles something like WW2 Uboat warfare, with a larger emphasis on evasive maneuvers, heat management, and most importantly intelligence/stealth. Gas giants would be utilized to great effect, and so would be the natural gravitational force of terrestrial bodies. If heat management is key factor in space warfare, I don't see the need to utilize any other weapons besides purely kinetic. Though I *can* see sticking an explosive warhead on it for good measure, but the relative speed at which it would be traveling and the force it would hit its target with wouldn't make any difference given how fast an object can go after even a part-way slingshot maneuver. Anyways, sorry for the word murder. TLDR your 1st theory is extremely plausible and something I very much think will come to pass. The 2nd theory is too static and therefore good in a defensive manner but the same principles can still be exploited in a more offensive way.

[@_shadownotes_]

Why are we assuming that the two competing ships have vastly differing velocities? Projectiles become ineffective if your opponent matches your speed and direction.

[@zestybeelzebub]

@@_shadownotes_ Well keep in mind velocity is relative in space. Just because you and your target are going at the same speed in the same direction doesn't mean your projectile won't do anything. The projectile itself, if you account for where the target is going, will use the velocity it already has when fired/launched and THAT is what determines the force of impact (assuming its solid). It would only do no affect whatsoever in a chase-type scenario where the projectile is chasing the target, but even then the projectile will most likely be going faster than the target itself as the relative mass is much lower and thus easier to move/increase velocity of on a projectile than an entire ship. Especially as we can increase the velocity of something using external forces like gravity. So at that point the entire game of Space Warfare is trying to find out where your enemy is, keeping your position hidden, and trying to determine their route so you can land a shot. Plus, ofc, all the points brought up in this video.

[@_shadownotes_]

@ZestyBullet Every scenario would be a "chase" scenario, otherwise the ships would eventually drift apart, which is my point. Sure, you can speed up a projectile, but it's going to take resources. Not to mention you can employ interception projectiles.

[@MrHws5mp]

There IS a point to maneuvering vs lasers though: lasers need to be focused on a single, small spot to do their damage. That ability to focus and track the target makes the difference between burning a hole in your hull and warming up a stripe of it. Violently changing direction would make it harder to keep the laser on target, and violently changing attitude would spread the incoming heat over a greater area of your ship's hull. Also, as you pointed out, laser are attenuated by rain or other particulate clouds. In the Traveller RPG, there's a weapon called a 'Sandcaster' that launches clouds of refractive particles in order to do just that. keeping clouds of 'sand' between yourself and a maneuvering enemy would be another reason to maneuver under laser fire. Speaking of sand, I think one factor which most sci-fi underplays or ignores is relative velocity. You don't need any sort of actual weapon to do horrendous damage, given the velocities which sci-fi ships are typically capable of: you just need to build up a huge velocity relative to the target, throw a barrel full of junk out of the front airlock, then change course. For a more formal weapon, make it a cloud of high-density ceramic (non-radar reflecting) balls an watch what they do to an enemy when they hit at 50,000 km/h. This is also a reason why elaborate 'city killer' weapons are pointless. You don't need to launch a nuke from a warship to kill a city, you just need to get a cargo ship travelling towards the planet at some horrendous relative velocity, then dump a hundred block of high-density material out of the hold.....

[@tiagodarkpeasant]

that is what i tought, if the laser takes seconds to melt the shield, you can just move to prevent the laser from hiting the same spot for a long time, you will only get scars

[@Chrinik]

Get's hit with laser. "Let's try spinning, that's a good trick!" Actually works. Honestly, people saying "laser weapons" would be the best thing in space

[@MrHws5mp]

It's a bit like the situation with missiles in armoured warfare. Back in the 1960s, many people were claiming that the new, high-tech scary anti-tank missiles spelled the end of the Main Battle Tank, and high-velocity anit-tank guns in general, in much the same way that aircraft carriers brought about the demise of the battleship. Yet, 50 years later, here we still are with MBTs and a whole host of smaller high-velocity anti-armour guns still in service. Why? Because, although the ATGWs brought SOME useful and effective capabilities to the table, and were definitely worth having, they also had some significant disadvantages and limitations and were vulnerable to various countermeasures too, which resulted in them becoming just "one more club in the golf-bag" instead of turning the whole of land warfare upside-down. There's a pattern to this in the history of warfare. The term "Jeune École" ("Young School") was coined in France in the 1890s to describe those younger naval officers who were convinced that the new-fangled torpedo spelled doom for the big-gun battleship. The "we know what the next big thing is and all these fuddy-duddy old generals/admirals are just getting in the way of progress" has cropped up again and again, but it's been proved wrong as often as it's been proved right. So yeah, killing lasers MAY have a role to play in future warfare, including space warfare, but you'd be a fool to write off the high-velocity projectile for a while yet...

[@Chrinik]

Cheap, effective and reliable. Kinetics. But yeah, remember when long range, guided air-to-air missiles made "the gun obsolete"? So they stripped the gun off of their F4, went to war and when the missiles failed they had 0 back up and where screaming to get a gun somehow jury rigged onto the damn thing. That idea died quicker then it got thought up, operational reasons, tactical reality and the fog of war made BVR combat pretty rare even to this day, WITH our super advanced tech. Most air to air kills are still short range, not only because the enemy usually has shittier equipment that gets blown up while still on the ground anyway, but also because it is one thing to trust your sensor equipment that "that's a bad guy because his IFF didn't say friendly", but it's another to see the enemies flag on that bird and being like "YEP, that's an enemy alright, time to kill!" Heard a story from a UH-60 pilot who got buzzed by an F-16 in Iraq, bullets had taken out their radio and IFF system so nobody knew they where there and IFF couldn't respond...but he sees this F-16 spike on his RWR locking on to him. Apparently he found the pilot later and he said the only reason he came so close is because he wanted a guns kill, but then saw that it was a Blackhawk and called it in... Better to be sure than blue on blue because friendly fire, isn't.

[@rocksfire4390]

honestly having a pretty sizeable ship with a powerful single burst laser is what you would use. getting most of the way into a plate of armor on a ship would do enough damage for the pressure difference to suck everything out of the ship like you sucking fluid up a straw. getting even a second of time is more then enough, and you wouldn't even SEE it coming until you where already on your way out of the ship. violently changing direction would also impose those forces on yourself and the ship it self. so spinning around like crazy isn't exactly the best idea. also heating up the ship's hull which would heat up the inside of the ship which would heat YOU up, is another way for you too die. so even if you spin around you will still die sooner or later xD.

[@victorwaddell6530]

I was in the US Navy for ten years , my rating was Operations Specialist . That's basically a radar operator , but with more duties . Space war would be like modern submarine warfare with some differences . Space operations would be nothing like modern air to air combat . There are no need for windows underwater or in space , sensors do what human eyesight cannot . If you need to see something , cameras and periscopes fill the bill . No need for panes of transparent material , they would just be weak points in the ships hull . Communications would not be instantaneous like shown in movies , it would take minutes between sending a message and the recipient receiving the message , then more time for the receiver to write then send a reply . It would be like two ship captains texting each other with a bad connection . Today , signals are detected by specialists and their content is sent to those who need to know , and I think that's how comms and signal analysis would be handled . There would be no need for space fighter planes , drones , torpedoes , and mines would fill that duty . Imagine R2D2 flying the X-Wing without a person in the cockpit , Luke is sitting in a combat control console on the drone carrier . I could go on about how different modern naval operations are from what people think , and how different I think space operations would be like . And that's just considering ops within our solar system .

[@aldricksamano654]

Victor Waddell , in theory, can a drone be used to tag an opposing ship in space combat?

[@victorwaddell6530]

Aldrick Samano. By "tag" do you mean strike , or identify ? Yes , they should be able to do both . A modern torpedo is basically an underwater drone , controlled by the sonar operators on the ship , submarine , or aircraft that launches it . Some types of torpedoes are wire guided for a distance , once the wire runs out they change to self homing mode . Some missiles are guided to the target by the vessel that launches them for the entire flight , some are guided part of the way then go into a targeting mode on their own . A drone doesn't need life support systems necessary for a manned craft . That saves a lot of weight and expence , making drones lighter and less expensive . That also means that drones could be disposable . All the fuel that isn't used to bring a manned vessel back safely could be used to double the range of a one way unmanned weapon . A space weapon could be designed that uses both active control and self targeting modes . That's just my conjecture .

[@aldricksamano654]

I agree with that. The drones can do it. Let some control it from a ship.

[@spencerwilliams3903]

Victor Waddell I agree with most of what you are saying but the time delay of communication could be a factor for drones. Instead of having direct control you would only be able to give orders which programs or AI’s would have to carry out

[@victorwaddell6530]

@@spencerwilliams3903 Like how cruise missiles are programmed with a "mission package" before they are launched , a drone could be programmed to attack a specific target . These types of weapons are often called " fire and forget " . If the launching platform is not in control of the drone , it can perform it's mission autonomously . Drones could also be laid like mines , waiting in ambush , their data banks loaded with specific targeting information and parameters for attack . This would allow defending fleets to plant " space minefields " of a sort . These mines could also act as advanced pickets , using their sensors to detect and report to the fleet any activity before the manned vessels detected the attackers . Some modern navies use what are called sonobuoys , These are disposable floating sonar devices that are dropped into the water , usually by aircraft . They send targeting and identification to aircraft and ships via a radio or electronic data link . Once their batteries run out they sink to the bottom . In space a similar type of sensor could be used to extend the range of a fleet's sensors . They need not be disposable if they were made with a system of recharging via solar power or had compact nuclear energy plants . It would still take several minutes for their signal to travel , though . Imagine , a spacebuoy detects an enemy , orders the minedrones to attack , the spacebuoy assesses the results of the attack then sends a signal to the Flagship . It might take longer for the message to get to the Admiral than the batle took to occur . That's a similar type of battle to carrier engagements in the WW2 Pacific Ocean campaign . The capital ships rarely saw each other . The carriers in both fleets used manned aircraft at ranges far longer than the battleships ever fired at each other . I imagine drones taking the place of Kamikaze pilots and drone carriers/minelayers being the capital ships of the space fleets .

[@bobiboulon]

2:30 Or, like gunnery chief in ME2 says: "Once you fire this hunch of metal it keeps going 'till it hits something. That can be a ship, or the planet behind that ship. It might go off in the deep space and hit somebody else in ten thousand years! [...] That's is why you wait for the computer to give you a damn firing solution! [...] You are not a cowboy shooting from the hip!"

[@bobiboulon]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/bXjUond5mpmMqNU

[@ariskonstantoulas9508]

Damn, I remember this; he also said something about ruining someone's day.

[@DarthBiomech]

While it's nice on paper and showing off that the creators know about physics, I don't think that in real battle anybody would care that the projectile _might_ impact with something in another system several thousand years in the future. The only thing you need to worry about is not hitting the friendlies.

[@Khenfu_Cake]

bobiboulon And then we had the huge Star Wars esque space battle close to Earth in ME3....:S

[@petersmythe6462]

It sounds truth-y, but fortunately it's very wrong. Some shell with roughly the energy of a nuke is: 1. Going to do little or nothing if it hits an uninhabited planet. 2. Very likely to escape the galaxy and never encounter another object of significant size (like a planet) before the heat death of the universe. 3. Probably most importantly, very likely to encounter a large piece of dust that shatters the round into a cloud of fragments. Space is not empty. Not even interstellar space. All realistic designs for interstellar spacecraft have some method off dealing with intercepting relativistic dust specks periodically, and it doesn't take much to turn even a large ship into a cloud of debris.objects traveling for months or years at relativistic speeds will be battered by collisions.

[@TelsMaviston]

You know, weaponizing your own hear production might be an interesting idea. Imagine firing lasers at enemy, and then umsiphoning the excess heat to help generate plasma that is sealed within shells, that are then fired out of rail guns. Turn your own heat into a weapon to be used against your enemy.

[@corbsshas2811]

use conduction to make a super hot projectile that you then fire at the enemy. the item would then transfer the heat from your ship the the enemy's ship.

[@iceball3xd]

​@@corbsshas2811 consider: thermal conduction only works to equalize the temperatures between two items. Projectiles heated by your heatsinks or hull will only ever be as hot as the source in question, which will always be below meltdown temperatures. You're better off using heat pumps for something like that, but even then heatpumps are not at all efficient here.

[@maxk4324]

​​@@iceball3xd Heat pumps are stupidly efficient! Not really able to reach plasma temperatures afaik, but honestly this is useful more just as a means of dumping heat from your craft more quickly than radiators could provide. I'm picturing having heat sink piping laced under/into the ships armor that draws heat away from where you got hit and dumps it into projectiles or into the ships reaction mass to preheat it before the engine does the rest of the heating prior to expelling it for thrust. Dumping heat into mass via conduction and then tossing that mass overboard will always be way faster than just relying on radiators alone. Might not help with actually damaging the enemy much though since with modern heat pump technology we're only talking about raising the temp of the object by maybe a few hundred degrees

[@theaveragepro1749]

@@maxk4324 it would make the projectiles alot easier to see and be countered by some defense system

[@_shadownotes_]

It's a galactic game of hot potato.

[@bobafett5764]

6:29 Ships actually could Maneuver like that in battle star galactica. They would often do that to eliminate other ships.

[@insertdeadmeme]

If you can't hit it, heat it.

[@MrKorkann]

Insert Meme well done, sir

[@cjwrench07]

Nukes would still worthwhile in space then. Using the intense radiation to heat objects.

[@insertdeadmeme]

Well nukes are so powerful they would be effective pretty much everywhere..

[@MatterBeamTSF]

Doctor Cthuluhu, Insert Meme: Nukes won't be effective in space. There is no air to transmit and deliver a shockwave of pressure to their target. Instead, they will just flash like very, very bright X-ray lightbulbs. These X-rays disperse in all directions, so staying even a moderate distance from megaton bombs (10-100km) renders them harmless. If you are going to deliver a nuclear warhead across thousands of kilometers to just on top of the target, might as well take the extra step and slam it into the target for a guaranteed kinetic kill.

[@cjwrench07]

Matter Beam the hard radiation is still very useful in space. Russia, France, and the US all have enhanced radiation bombs, distinctly for use outside the atmosphere. The nukes hard radiation and EM pulse is meant to blind satellites and ground based sensors for hundreds of kilometres. NATO’s old declassified battle plan was for an exo-atmospheric detonation just to the east of Finland. That would blind/disable Soviet sensors for hundreds of kilometres, allowing the rest of the nukes to get through easily. Using a nuke to splash a target with hard radiation would be very useful in a space battle, and would require tons of shielding on the target craft to mitigate. Yes, the blast wave is only transferable if it’s detonated on/inside the target, but as long as you were far enough away the hard radiation would only be a tiny amount for you. While bathing the target in everything from infrared to x-rays. One of the plans Nasa had considered in the 1960-70s was re-purposing a large nuke to deflect an incoming asteroid, as long as they had years in advanced warning. They would detonate it nearby and the radiation would push it just slightly off course, but still far enough that in a few years it would equal kilometres of change.

[@nerysghemor5781]

The Battlestar Galactica reboot did a good job with showing a turn with thrusters more like you described. They didn’t always stick to those physics because rule of cool, but there was a higher than average effort.

[@ezequielblanco8659]

Human ships in Babylon 5 also were more scientifically accurate. Alien ships did not follow these rules because they had alien propulsion technology and artificial gravity.

[@Joaosantos22114]

*Incompetent Fleet Commander:* I am more powerful, I have more guns! *Seasoned Fleet Commander:* We have better radiators...

[@doggo6517]

Legend has it he's still out there, radiating, to this very day

[@Joaosantos22114]

@@doggo6517 He has even more radiators now, he's unstoppable.

[@SensitiveSocietysBBL]

All you have to do is shoot the radiators and destroy/render them useless and then you basically won the battle

[@Raythe]

experienced commander: we have better sensors and also built a ship that can handle the heat production of its assigned tasks. like any military with 5 braincells would do

[@SensitiveSocietysBBL]

@@Raythe ok, then go for the engines, ya know, the things that make it move

[@LordBaktor]

Shoutout to the original Mass Effect trilogy for mentioning most of these things even though they then went for a more cinematic depiction of the battles whenever there was a cutscene. I loved the conversation you could overhear on the citadel of a sargent giving two soldiers a speech on how you don't fire a weapon in space unless you know it's going to hit, because if it misses the bullet is going to continue on until eventually it hits something else that might be important.

[@FereldenKrogan]

Gaby and Donnel even mention heat dispersion of the engine room

[@AnnaCurser]

Never thought Mech Warrior was right. Heat management is crutial.

[@khartog01]

DavionXY I traded heat sinks for extra guns and while I won, I also exploded. Worth it.

[@Artificer1911]

That was my thought, too. LBX FTW.

[@AsbjoernKromann]

And Elite Dangerous :P

[@Iliya117]

And Mass effect

[@WalterLoggetti]

Heat sink released... :D

[@Kojima93]

Unless the fight is near a planet and the enemy is trying to land on said planet. Otherwise. Distance would be king and so would be accurately fast communication to differentiate friend or foe. Space is huge yes, but engagements might be somewhat close due to said friend or foe differentiation.

[@kaiso7322]

Your comment should be on top. There are certain points of interest where fleets or ships would meet each other. different orbits around a planet would dictate distances and engagement sectors, from the point where the curvature of a planet would no longer prevent both opponents from being "seen". Stations or asteroid fields would close the distances even more. Still "space distances", but not as vast as one might possibly think at first.

[@paavobergmann4920]

Depends on how different the enemies are, technology-wise. A spectral analysis of the heat signature might give you all the clues you need, and you can afford staying several light seconds away, and launch your laser in advance, just like a torpedo, to intersect the enemies glide path. he won´t dodge, because he can´t see it coming.

[@badbeardbill9956]

Yeah but if the enemy drive flares or thermal signatures are distinct from friendly thermal signatures then there's no really no reason to get close.

[@SemiMono]

Unless you get some intel about some ships en-route to some destination. Set up an ambush of stealth ships (probably unmanned weapon platforms?) and take them all out within about 60 seconds before they even get rail guns charged up to fire back.

[@Cklert]

​@@paavobergmann4920 Personally I think it all comes down to dominion. Who has surveillance of what? And as midetydeath has stated it all becomes a game of logistics. Sure distance for weaponry is mostly no longer a problem. Now the question becomes how far can we surveillance, and how far away are our ships from the surveying? It also becomes a game of how many defense lasers for a planet or base we have vs how many ships they have. It would also be practical to lay our ships just outside the enemies surveillance, but still near the edge of our own dominion. That way in case an enemy *tries* to invade a planet or system, we can intercept them at a relatively short notice. This also doesn't take in account of things like Warp Jumps, where a ship or fleets for that matter can just jump from system to system at will.

[@hanneswiggenhorn2023]

One thing that should also not be forgotten is targetting: if you want to reliably hit a 1cm spot on a space ship 10km away, your laser turret must have the precision to move by 0,0000573 degrees (current stepper motors can do 1 degree, which isn't nearly enough) on 2 axis simultaneously, which can act very limiting towards the range of non guiding weapons like lasers

[@davidmackie3497]

This is really the most important point. Weapons are useless if they don't hit. And laser shots can't redirect themselves as information updates. Self-guiding missiles would be the long-range weapon of space battles. Lasers and unguided projectiles would be best for point-defense and short-range attack, not long-range attack.

[@damonedrington3453]

I honestly feel like people are underselling missiles. They can guide themselves as they get closer. Only downside is their speed

[@hanneswiggenhorn2023]

@@damonedrington3453 speed and compared to for example lasers, they can be intercepted. If we assume HEAT missiles instead of kinetic ones, which is somewhat more likely as then speed would be less of an issue, we would already have hard kill counters that can simply kill the missile before it reaches your enemy. Nuclear missiles wouldn't really make it any better. There isn't really any perfect weapon for space combat tbh

[@dadudeme]

@@hanneswiggenhorn2023 if the nuke is made to detonate when intercepted that would still be devastating for the defender depending on the range of interception according to the inverse square law of radiation. nukes release a huge amount of thermal and ionising radiation, like really huge amounts.

[@hanneswiggenhorn2023]

@@dadudeme true, bit unlike other rockets, nukes need to purposefully need to be fired, and a bullet couldn't ignite them. And by this, I feel like chances are good that a successful hit disables the firing mechanism or damages the payload. Also from what I know nukes in space emit basically only gamma and x ray radiation, not thermal one, and because a space ship already needs shielding against those, a nuke could come relative close (not like 10 meters close tho)

[@Ikaros473]

6:26 you can actually do this move in elite dangerous by turning off flight assist

[@TheJimtanker]

To experience THE BEST portrayal of space battles read the Lost Fleet series of books by Jack Campbell. He is a graduate of the Naval Academy and even takes into account the fact that after jumping into a system you would be seeing how things are hours ago, not as they are. Great read.

[@JkaaraKoDi]

Also Glen Cook's "Raid". It is Heavily inspired by Das boot, but in space.

[@turtlegodkame]

Expeditionary Force series by Craig Alanson does a fantastic job as well. Hits most if not all of there points.

[@JkaaraKoDi]

Thanks for the tip! Enjoying the books

[@timhallfarthing383]

Honor Harrington (once the author gets over his navel hang ups, he tried to translate Napoleonic combat to 3d for the first few books before giving up and advancing the tech to make sense) is pretty great as well. Time lag and approach vectors factor a lot. Also a classic is the Forever War, that features a couple space battles that are basically luck and RNG's. Also .95 c ramming of a planet.

[@MrSurrealKarma]

I really liked "Warship" from the Black Fleet trilogy. It felt like the most professional military and realism approach to space battles I've read.

[@sternis1]

One idea to loose heat in a space war (or generally for spaceship) would be to conduct all your heat in some kind of mass (say a huge slug of steel or copper) and then just throw it out of your spaceship. If you're lucky, it's going to hit something. The main problem here being that you would loose mass everytime you do that, so it's something that would need to be extremely carefully planned.

[@Driptacular_Dragonborn]

Maybe the heat could be directed to those slugs, and there’d be *lots* of them, so that battles can last longer? The radiator foils or whatever would be reserved for calmer periods, and the slugs would be used when overheating is an actual problem

[@Pyrohawk]

Or have some kind of conductive "vein" system to direct heat in a way you could convert it into energy, and then blast that energy at your enemy via a laser

[@Driptacular_Dragonborn]

@@Pyrohawk oooh that’s clever

[@mradabaugh9406]

I don't think you realized that the main weapons platforms on star wars ships shoot charged beams of plasma, that is why they need tibanna gas for their blasters.

[@GuillermoWeibchen]

10000 km is the distance between Buenos Aires and San Francisco. Between New York and Chicago there are only 1400 km.

[@IdRatherNot86]

Use your ears as well as your eyes. He said from 1000km, while 10,000km was still written from a previous statement.

[@malgrendell6]

Yes, dude, I love "The Expanse."

[@plumdowner1941]

The Starfury in Babylon 5 (the show as a whole in a lot of cases) is a great example of a space fighter. They have engines that point in multiple directions to arrest their momentum in space and can turn on a dime.

[@roonilwazlib9877]

The only thing that disappointed me about the Star Fury was that its guns were fixed. Seems to me that if they had even a 45 degree firing arc that the pilot could focus on getting their plane pointed the right way and let the combat computer make the fine adjustments for the shot. Other than that though, they're fantastic.

[@megagamernick9883]

I remember in Star Wars Battlefront:Elite squadron(detailed so people can easily find it). When you do the Death Star run. It showed that when you hit the breaks, the thrusters on an X Wing actually have vents on the back pointing towards the front of the ship. And it appeared to have slowed your X Wing down when the vents were opened. Since then I thought that’s how breaking worked

[@Melayahm01]

I seem to remember Babylon 5 fighters using thrusters to reorient themselves to shoot, and also slow down or change direction. The Expanse still has sound in space battles, (from the outside) but space battles without 'pew pew pew' would be very boring, so, artistic license

[@achtsekundenfurz7876]

YES! They even had that one training scene where a rookie was pursuing Ivanova, and she just turns around and returns fire (non-damaging low-power shots both ways). There's also that scene where one Destroyer (the Pollux???) fires at "nothing" -- followed by return fire coming in from same "nothing" and da,maging the Destroyer. Then we switch PoV and see that she dealt some damage to a White Star, which loses thrust and drifts right into the Destroyer, resulting in a mutual kill. One of the few scenes which treat engagement ranges realistically. Even B5 zigzags that matter a lot. There's also the Interceptor Launcher, a weapon which usually is seen deploying defensive missiles (designed to crash into incoming ordnance rather than striking back at the enemy). A necessity, since not only stations like B5, but also capital ships don't evade well -- even less so since most capital ships use guided torpedo or missile weapons, which could mimic the target's maneuvers. There' are also some rather slow and unguided weapons. Not sure why, maybe they use less energy or are more damaging???

[@noppornwongrassamee8941]

@@achtsekundenfurz7876 Ah, the problem with turning around to shoot the guy chasing you in a dog fight is that the guy turning around usually STOPS MANEUVERING to do it. If Ivanova had been sparring with an experienced pilot during that maneuver, he would have shot and hit her first before she finished turning around because he already had guns pointed at her and she didn't. In space, not accelerating and being on a predictable ballistic free fall is as good as standing still and holding up a "SHOOT ME" sign. Arguably, Battlestar Galactica did this kind of thing better. When Starbuck turns around to shoot the Raider chasing her, she's STILL MANEUVERING even if only with RCS thrusters. We can see Viper and Raider wobbling back and forth as they're shooting at each other AT THE SAME TIME.

[@achtsekundenfurz7876]

@@noppornwongrassamee8941 Depends on the tech level. If shields are a thing, you're turning your fresh shields towards the enemy and can take another few hits. So, it would be a good idea at Star Trek / Wars, and it would make a difference in cases where the participants have significant armor, too. So B5 would count, but only with capital ships rather than fighters.

[@thechecker111]

Gravity is everywhere in space. Nothing goes in a straight line forever in space, you always have to apply orbital dynamics.

[@joelv4495]

True, but once you get out of the sphere of influence of a planet the forces become quite small for purposes of combat. Ground to space weapons (which already exist, China is known to have them) can be quite effective, simply launch on a ballistic trajectory and you've instantly got a ~15,000mph speed difference to your target. Another factor is that a space battle would very rapidly initiate Kessler syndrome in the orbit of the battle.

[@thechecker111]

Joel V once you get out of the sphere of iinfluence of the planet you are still in the sphere of influence of the host star. To get out of our solar system for example you need the third escape velocity otherwise you are trapped in an orbit around the sun. Even if you manage to do that you are still in an orbit around our galactic core, the escape velocity for that is around 594 km/s. So in space you are in an orbit most of the time and most likely never fly in a straight line.

[@E--Drop]

thechecker111 Technically in the video, he was saying that it would theoretically keep moving indefinitely only if hypothetically there was nothing in or near its path. But I still agree with what you're saying because in space there is almost always something in/near your path.

[@DavidEllis94]

You really don't. Depending on how fast you are going relative to the object dominating your orbit, your trajectory may well be fairly straight, and on the relatively small scale of a battle space, thinking in non-orbital terms is a perfectly valid approximation.

[@tiagodarkpeasant]

as long as you are in the same orbit as the target, its is enough, if all planets have the same orbit around the galaxy the laser will not hit any of them because of the galaxy's gravity

[@dredgenauryx3382]

So if you want to make a realistic space fight scene, you have to treat it like a sniper vs counter sniper fight scene with multiple snipers on both sides (if it is a fleet on fleet battle)...

[@AronBagel]

So that's why TIE Fighters are such fast, effective fighters, they've got giant radiator panels dedicated to dispersing heat more efficiently than X-Wings, allowing them to redirect more energy to actual propulsion instead of heat management!

[@xarfram]

AronBagel actually, I think Canon says that they are solar panels, not radiators, though I may be wrong about that

[@xarfram]

AronBagel actually, I think Canon says that they are solar panels, not radiators, though I may be wrong about that

[@temiajuwon8893]

Hunter The Gamer No your right, so they absorb energy (heat), they don't disperse it.

[@Beegrene]

It depends on what version of the canon you're talking about. Star Wars is hardly consistent on the matter. I think a similar explanation is used for X-Wings. They have to spread their s-foils out to attack so that they have a greater surface area from which to radiate heat.

[@clockwork_mind]

Let's just assume that the TIE fighters don't use solar panels, because that would be the stupidest design ever. They increase the target size by like 4x, making them easier to hit, for what? The kinds of things that a spaceship does - propulsion, maneuvering, computing, and firing frickin lasers - would require *orders of magnitude* more energy than a solar panel could generate. It would be practically pointless to use them since you would be running almost entirely on your Super Ion Space Battery(TM). And that is even giving the generous assumption that they are near a star like our Sun. Space is almost completely empty and If you were to chose any random point in space, there's a very very low chance that it will be anywhere near a star. And we rarely see a Star Wars battle happen near a star. Those panels would be generating enough to maybe power one diode on your control board. So yes, those panels would be much much better as radiators. Let's call them that.

[@boxertest]

Captain: Fire the photon topedos Engineer: I can't do it Captain we'll burn up Captain: Doctor how much heat can we take before we melt Doctor: Dammit Captain I'm a Doctor not an Engineer!!! :-)

[@9051team]

boxertest is this a refrenceto doctor who?

[@boxertest]

LOL nah its a joke based on Star Trek

[@orangemandarin7925]

boxertest Q

[@plzletmebefrank]

Captain: Engineer? Engineer: I'm an engineer not a damn physicist! Captain: ... We should've brought someone smarter with us. Science Officer: Well, the melting point of the tachyon tachyon tachyon tachyons is equivalent to the melting point of tachyons. However, we are about to melt ourselves before then and I wasted time explaining this all to you and now we are dying. Captain: Did anyone who knew who space worked ever proof-read this script?! Science Officer: Obviously not, sir, they didn't even spell "how", correctly.

[@bobmartin9918]

Photon torpedoes are actually antimatter torpedoes, they give off light when the antimatter and matter is in the same chamber but kept apart by an electromagnetic field, thus mixing but not exploding. A photon is a fancy name for light.

[@samsignorelli]

When he mentioned using space in 2D, I remembered Star Trek II: Spock (re Khan): "He's intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates....2 dimensional thinking." Kirk: "Z minus 10,000 meters, stand by photon torpedoes.) Of course, you have to realize that a space battle on film -- like a sword fight on film -- is there to tell the story to the audience, not to be accurate to real life.

[@SergioArroyoSailing]

exactly !

[@SmokeDog1871]

But the more accurate the world of the story the more immersive it is for the audience, why do you think so many people love game of thrones

[@nightsong81]

@@SmokeDog1871 Boobs.

[@Appletank8]

Kirk could've just as easily stayed below Khan and shot at his belly.

[@Araanim]

Yeah, wasn't that like the big coup de grace, the fact that the Enterprise *gasp* came from BELOW the other ship? That shouldn't have been a brilliant strategy, that should have been standard combat.

[@sethleoric2598]

This makes me wonder if Spess war would be a lot like a game of Battleship, each enemy trying their best to pinpoint their enemies and hiding themselves before moving first

[@Fuar11]

The Expanse only really does CQB around important locations. Missiles and torpedoes are used at a distance quite often. It's actually quite hard to notice how far away the ships are.

[@westcoaststacker569]

Seems over the seasons they expanded on the kinetics as well as using asteroids fractured or whole.

[@ShEsHy]

@@westcoaststacker569 Man, that stealth asteroid plot hurt my brain. It was so obvious what was gonna happen, in fact it actually had already happened with Eros, yet everyone went collectively retarded just for the sake of the plot. It was in my opinion the absolute worst part of the show, writing-wise. That and Ashford surrendering, knowing full well he was gonna die, when he had a gun on Inaros and could've taken him out, going out in a blaze like a Belter should.

[@mccalltrader]

I always thought that admiral Akbar was so good at commanding space ships, because he came from an aqueous planet. His attention and tactics were honed over his many years living in an environment where all dimensions had to be taken into account at all times! Not like us land lubers..who mainly see threats as in front or behind

[@Fermion.]

I always looked at starships as being very similar to submerged submarines. You're in a closed environment, and are totally dependent on sensor data, life support, and structural integrity for survival. Any of those 3 key systems fail, you're dead. Out of all the current military, a submarine crew would probably make the best starship crew.

[@gojithereploid7623]

McCall G. I always thought about that! Something I really started thinking about in star wars after episode 7 when there was that ackbar look alike, it might of been a diff movie. Was how maybe certain species are probably batter for certain roles, and which species usually filled them

[@sonoriuxo2437]

Pearl Harbor movie Roosevelt quote: "I like sub commanders. They have no time for bullshit, and neither do I."

[@Vedlom]

Tell that to Grand Admiral Thrawn which made a mockery of Akbar and his tactics.

[@vanshitshah876]

You know in many movies they show that the space ships are going from light speed to zero in just a split second then shouldn't every person in the ship be dead and turned into a mush of flesh and bone .what modifications they should do to prevent this from happening.?

[@Painteagle]

Or one more thing, what would the stresses be on a ship that approaches light speed at different points along the ship. Like in shows where the front part seems to spaghettify before the back, how would you even calculate the material stress? Do we have a way to deal with this already?

[@Soldier4USA2005]

Inertia dampeners from Star Trek. But that's just standard motion. For warp/light speed, it's the warp bubble that creates a pocket that allows the ship to move "around" space...not through it.

[@jcnz84]

that depends i guess in Trek they are moving the space around them not themselves . in wars and other jumping to lightspeed then yeah probably. i think they would need some sort of inertial dampeners or something.

[@hybrid_grizzly]

They aren’t accelerating, they’re folding spacetime, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to reach light speed in the first place

[@vanshitshah876]

You guys are talking about warping space but in many films the travel is just simply explained by traveling with velocity of light.

[@mr.meltdown5204]

I love how he drew an Apocalypse, an Abbadon, (maybe?) a Tornado and what seems like an Augoror in the thumbnail! really nice easter egg about EVE Online 😁

[@Pyrohawk]

Was driving me nuts trying to figure out if i was recognizing them correctly, glad its not just me

[@ImVeryOriginal]

I think it's a Megathron, not an Augoror.

[@arctroopernull8733]

What about an episode on the benefits, disadvantages and science to cloning an army.

[@Daniel-mr3bi]

Death Trooper DT-101 You could probably just infect one of them with a lethal disease and since they are all the same the would probably all get sick and die.

[@lololololy6303]

Death Trooper DT-101 he buddy

[@deranathonarkantos6712]

Nimmy Jewtron, Good point, I never thought about that, engineer a virus that only targets the genome of the template of your enemy’s clone army, problem solved!

[@krautkopf4101994]

easier said than done

[@Subhumanoid_]

Disadvantages would be in logistics. You could never bring enough ammo to compensate for their inability to aim and hit.

[@BruceCarroll]

Another thing Star Trek gets wrong: Apparently, no one has invented circuit breakers in that universe. #sparksshootoutofcontrolpanel

[@storm37000]

i think the shields make like a back burst of some kind when hit, the energy has to go somewhere, and its better to spread it out i guess.

[@nigratruo]

Yeah, that is fake. Hollywood, the same idiocy: destroying a computer by destroying the screen, which is like trying to kill a human by shooting a photo. I wish they were more realistic showing the shields collapse in a segment and the the shot going through, showing the part of the ship getting hit (inside). Star trek VI the undiscovered country has a scene like that: kzbin.info/www/bejne/lYnZiqRunpuSb9E

[@menthy]

Starfleet always puts dynamite in their control panels. Just because.

[@Hyrum_Graff]

@@menthy Maybe to prevent capture of operational ships? That's all I could think of for the consistent control panel explosions.

[@achtsekundenfurz7876]

If we look at the energy density of Star Trek weapons, they're at least as bad as lightning, and in a type of energy that's not easily dispersed by a Faraday Cage or just about ANY hull made from conductive material. Circuit breakers alone can't protect against lightning, it's just too sudden and too much current. At least that's _my_ idea why the internal controls throw that many sparks out. The FX still look fake, I'll give you that...

[@BitMoreDave]

Something really cool. you would never know the blast was on the way to you... you would never know especially if it was travelling light speed or near light speed. any censer to detect such a thing would have to seek out the projectile or light. then send a signal back to the ship telling the ship there was death on the way. by the time the ship detected said weapon would have hit the ship... so you are boned no matter what

[@cjwrench07]

The Expanse. is a great show that actually deals with those kinds of problems head on. They use stuff like laser dazzlers to blind sensors, and observing a battle from long range is delayed by relativistic effects of distance. Star Trek/Wars always have to massively slow down the laser type weapons to make it exciting, or invoke energy shields to mute them. Or, they have sensors to tell when a weapon is being charged up as warning.

[@AnyDrug]

That's what time travel is for. "Thank God we got this 1h reset device thingy whenever our ship is completely destroyed, Captain." - "Well said, mate. Mwahahahaha..."

[@LashknifeTalon]

I think a partial solution to this would be to constantly scan the area around yourself for the signs of weaponry powering up or for solid objects. Of course, this doesn't protect you against someone, say, activating a laser outside of the range of your (probably also light-based) sensors, flying into range, and then shooting you...but then they have to figure out where you are as well.

[@cjwrench07]

LashknifeTalon his problem was when you are travelling at light speed, there is no way to sense anything in front of you due to your speed. But, to your point. Stealth would work even better in space. You could take an existing weapon, like an already stealth J-Sow, and integrate a paint like vanta-black into the stealth coating. Now you are invisible to not only radar, but laser based sensors, since the paint absorbs +99% of the light that hits it, and the rest would be reflected in a different direction. If you shield the electronics like we do in nuclear weapons. There would be no way to sense the powered up electronics inside. You would have this super black object travelling at you, that absorbs or reflects the EM radiation we use to sense objects now. We would need new and way more advanced sensors, that could sense the very slight change in the local gravitational field by it.

[@cjwrench07]

Khaden Allast it wouldn’t matter if it cooks, it only has to last a very short amount of time, from firing to detonation. On a long term mission, you could lob one from earth to mars orbit, powered down on a basic course, only fire up the electronics and engines at random intervals, and go completely dead again until detonation . You would only be generating enough heat to keep the electronics warm, and nothing else. There wouldn’t be need for anything else to be on, and there is no crew to constantly generate waste heat. Gimballed, but shrouded, engines would negate the need for maneuvering thrusters, since it doesn’t have to be a hit-to-kill weapon a general area is good enough trajectory. EM field sensors would have to be centuries ahead of what we can do now. The power of an electric field drops by orders of magnitude as you double the distance. The best sensors we have now, MAD, on maritime patrol craft, can only “see” a 3,000-5,000 ton submarine; if it’s flying within a 50m of the ocean, and if the submarine is within 100m of the surface. Plus, one of the main functions of stealth coatings is to absorb EM radiation, making it an even harder target to distinguish from the background noise.

[@geoffreystraw5268]

The Mote in God's Eye and The Gripping Hand have these mechanics in the books. Heat sinks on the ships to manage heat etc. Battles are vastly far apart. Its a great story.

[@mikemcconeghy4658]

I remember the Moties and their cycles. That was a good story.

[@Слышьты-ф4ю]

​@@mikemcconeghy4658 yeah, i did read last year Is sequel book good?

[@babysnaykes]

Seconding this, what a great imagining

[@Neighman]

The Forever War did a pretty good job with realism in a space war. That book is ok but if you want to read an amazing book about sci-fi warfare it has to be Ender's Game. It is not decidedly unrealistic, but I wouldn't call it hard science fiction either. Definitely the best book I have ever read

[@Deadorbiter_]

Yes.

[@Iklary]

@@Deadorbiter_ Well, the first part. The second, with Ender's journey - meh.

[@royrieder2113]

Hell yeah

[@fabiolean]

The codex of the first Mass Effect game talks about common space-naval tactics, including heat management in space. It's pretty great.

[@RamdomView]

Too bad the cutscene artists didn't pay attention.

[@dannichols5010]

@@RamdomView They did, but Bioware specifically said they didn't follow the codex for the battles scenes in Mass Effect 3 to make them look better visually. It was an artistic choice.

[@RamdomView]

@@dannichols5010 I believe you. On BioWare's part, that sounds like a cop out. It is entirely possible to create a suspenseful and dramatic scene without deviating from the codex. There's a scene in Star Trek where a rogue (?) ship attacks Cardassian ships and all we see is a sensor screen that Data narrates. It is a good scene. Or, try playing Homeworld on sensor mode only, and you'll still feel suspense, wondering and worried about the welfare of your crews. If anything, it would have been more artistic for BioWare to attempt to follow their own material instead of imitating other visual SF.

[@SebastiansFacts]

Space battling this way is so much more epic! Awesome video, again.

[@AsianPaulConrad]

wont look as epic though for a film. So much potential for a book.

[@Blauerkavenzmann]

The "Honor Harrington" books are a great example for rather hard-sci-fi space battles.

[@cbterminator5952]

sadly it can only be recreated in a book or they have to cut the ranges down and "pretend" they are further away

[@Greg-ku7rn]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5KypoiGaM6SgJY Here is a pretty awesome space battle that is quite realistic. Sort of got spoilers, but this is episode 4 of season 1, and the first three episodes are mostly just setting the charicters and backdrop for the story.

[@zephyrstrife4668]

This is why I love one of the lines I overheard in... I believe it was Mass Effect 2. A few recruits were getting trained by a senior officer and one of the things he mentioned was that firing at something either towards the sky or in space with their rifles or their ship weapons mean that whenever they pull the trigger, even if the round doesn't hit anything in that battle and keeps flying for 10,000 years, it will hit something and then it will royally screw up someone's day. Mass Effect used their techno-magic mass effect fields to miniaturize railguns and I've actually read into all that lore, it is fascinating... the rounds you fire are literally sand-grain sized because they're accelerated like railgun rounds and anything the size of a normal bullet would cause a nuclear explosion. I love sci-fi...

[@icfr0st78]

Actually the "lasers" in Star Wars isn't actually a laser beam. It's more like ionized plasma, isn't it?

[@DarthBiomech]

It's actually "stuff". Nobody knows what is it, exactly, because it is not a laser, for obvious reasons, but it's not plasma either, because it have significant mass (it carries quite a punch judging by the results of hits on characters and ships) and it doesn't dissipates in space like plasma would.

[@icfr0st78]

Darth Biomech I suppose that's true

[@martinkosecky4943]

The blasters in star wars can fire either ionised plasma or so called "tibanna gas"

[@augustoqueiroz6829]

"ItS eNerGYy BruUhh"

[@Casmaniac]

There's lasers and blasters. Blasters fire superheated gas kept together in a magnetic field, lasers are superfocused lightbeams

[@MrBlaktoe]

Good stuff. Heat is one of the reasons I think we'll see projectile weapons on military craft for centuries to come. Unless we make some huge leap in heat-saving technology. Just the same, I have always interpreted the weapons in Star Wars as something more like bolts of magnetically constricted plasma or something. They're certainly not laser beams.

[@badbeardbill9956]

Even guns get hot. But lasers are basically blast furnaces

[@MrBlaktoe]

@@badbeardbill9956 Yeah. I think the next leap in weaponry will be some kind of railgun. That is, one small enough for infantry.

[@dredgenauryx3382]

Blaster are confirmed plasma based weaponry in SW... even Turbo Laser on sips are plasma based even if the name is misleading... They use special gasses that have properties that allow plasma to hold shape over larger distances... with turbo lasers they usesd lasers to charge this gas or something like that I can't remember...

[@HenryLoenwind]

Projectiles are nearly useless in space. At those distances targeting becomes useless. You just need to change your speed and direction by very tiny amounts every couple of seconds. Hitting you now with a projectile that takes 30 or 60 seconds to travel the distance is hopeless. The other issue is recoil. On a planet, you can use the ground to anchor you, but in space, every shot will also push the shooter. The same amount of kinetic energy the bullet delivers to the target, it also delivers to the gun. Sure, the gun has better ways to distribute the impact than a random piece of hull, but it still severely limits the size of your guns. This actually is a good thing as any projectile that misses its target travels on and will potentially hit some other ship, maybe hundreds of years in the future with the exact same energy it would have hit its target with. No, the practical space weapon is the torpedo. It has next to no recoil, a much longer range, can track its target and finally deliver an explosion and not just kinetic energy. It also can self-destruct into tiny pieces if it misses, posing much less risk for other spacecraft.

[@MrBlaktoe]

@@HenryLoenwind It's good that one of us knows exactly what kind of technology will exist in 30, 60, or 100 years. You should apply at NASA.

[@silafuyang8675]

Thumb up for mentioning "The Expanse".

[@DivineInt]

Should have mentioned Space Above and Beyond too

[@jeffhall2411]

​@@DivineInt If I remember space above and beyond, i think the marine fighters fought more like planes, but i could be remembering wrong, it has been a looonggg time. LOL..

[@rh_BOSS]

Isn't the first season of "The Expanse" centered around some sort of space stealth technology? That's about as naive as dogfighting and explosions in space when you think about it.

[@ericschrader4469]

@@rh_BOSS i think the stealth tech was mostly based on radiation absorption and the fact of which led to its detection

[@roebuckpayne]

Really would love to see overheating be used as explanation as to why an ancient derelict ship became derelict. Like, instead of Star Trek next gen crew finding mummified corpses in an ancient alien battleship from a forgotten war, they’d find burnt corpses, seemingly baked as the ship overheated and everybody inside was suddenly inside an oven. Terrifying!

[@balrighty3523]

Two things: 1) Star Trek doesn't depict distance accurately, but the dialogue does reference the same sort of distances you mention here (tens of thousands of kilometers). I always just assumed this to be the same sort of liberty taken as when lasers make "pew pew" noises and explosions heard in the hard vacuum of space. I.e., it's not depicted accurately to we the viewing audience, but it is realistic within the fiction. 2) Star Trek impulse engines do take into account (more accurately, mitigate) conservation of momentum. In the show, ships moving through space at impulse at constant speed have to constantly expend engine power to do so. This is actually accurate, given how impulse engines are depicted as functioning. Namely, impulse engines only produce a small amount of thrust, nowhere near enough to expeditiously accelerate a ship up to 25% c or faster. So the impulse engines also do a little finagling with spacetime in a similar manner to the warp drive. I.e., the ship moves at 25% c due in small part to the thrust generated by the engines and in large part to that reactant's effects being greatly magnified by the warping effect of the engines. And that effect requires the engines be kept on. Turn them off, and the ship's spacetime becomes the same as the spacetime it's traveling through. It will still move forward, but only in direct proportion to the reactant thrust behind it (which, compared to 25% c, might as well be all stop).

[@AnonymousFreakYT]

Among recent "major" sci-fi, Babylon 5 is probably the closest to depicting realistic space battles. Between proper following of physics in movement of spacecraft; use of useful space weaponry (laser cannons that actually fire at the speed of light rather than "slow" like Star Trek phasers,) and use of mass drivers for planetary bombardment, etc. They even use proper tactics in "dogfights".

[@ConspiracytardHunter420]

Watch The Expanse!

[@2sudonim]

If your show has FTL, space fighters, visible beam weapons, rotating segments while under thrust, and the ships are less than half fuel tanks, then it isn't realistic. That includes BSG & B5 (which I like) and The Expanse (which I don't).

[@2sudonim]

The Expanse doesn't have reaction mass tanks or radiators on their ships. They also have literally every ship capable of multi-G acceleration but they have weapons other than RKVs and simply pointing your engines at your enemy. It also has stealth in space and close-quarters battles (they literally call it that!). That's not to mention ridiculous stuff like hangar bays for parasite craft and magnetic boots. The Expanse is an ignorant person's idea of what realistic space combat is like.

[@therizinosaurus214]

Star trek phasers is charged plasma, and would move at the speed it was ejected out by a magnetic field. while indeed slower, it could be more dangerous to a ships hull and systems. strong magnetic fields would help in protecting from this kind of weapon

[@brycemcdonald7687]

Actually there is a show called "space above and beyond" which would if my memory serves me they show a really interesting take on space fights

[@HayTatsuko]

What a fun and thoughtful video. I'm glad I rediscovered this channel -- used to watch on Pluto TV, but I no longer use that. While _Babylon 5_ also suffers from Naval Battle Syndrome, one of the things I think they got right was the way in which Star Furies and White Stars can maneuver -- specifically, maintaining a particular vector and rotating to perform rearwards shots and various strafing maneuvers It's still dogfighting, but in a spaceshippy way that's far cooler than what can be done with craft that move within fluids.

[@upthebikez]

BSG showed this too; Viper fighters had numerous thrusters for maneuvering and often did turn back around in combat to chase their former pursuers.

[@campbell9825]

One of my favorite examples of a space battle is the one in book 6 of the Expanse where the enemy ship has to speed up on an elliptical trajectory in order to reach the rocinante before it reaches the ring, and because of the massive relative velocity between the two ships, the whole battle happens in like a second and is over before the pov character even understands what happened

[@stuartwelch6432]

Great series... And we "almost" have all the tech required to do it. BUT, we just don't have the manufacturing TO do it. Except for the Anderson Drive, we will need that before we can do any of the other stuff.

[@jussipla]

The Expanse series does a pretty good job on this. Especially in the books

[@cttc4132]

This is probably my favorite aspect of The Expanse. The story about the alien goo is okay, but I watch it mostly for the well thought out Space battles.

[@RubbishXplane12]

The Expanse is not that realistic there is sound in space, in the expanse and also Explosions, both don’t happen in real life.

[@wren7195]

Babylon 5 did a decent job back in the day, even saw a fighter do the same flip-but-still-go-straight-fire-at-tailing-enemy move Kyle's Xwing did. They were still too close, but they avoided the linear naval battles, battles were utter chaos with ships EVERYWHERE in every orientation shooting tons of different kinds of weapons all over the place. Fun, philosophical show. Sounds like I need to start watching The Expanse.

[@lordgraste]

@@RubbishXplane12 The sound in the expanse is just an artistic representation. When characters need to hear in the story in space they need physical contact or transmitters. Don't know about the explosions tho.

[@Crocogator]

@@RubbishXplane12 I've heard that the sounds we hear in space are the sounds that the crew inside the ship would hear - their own guns firing and the impact from getting hit. I also imagine in some fights, like with the mirrors, there's enough emissions from all the ships that there would be some sound travelling through them

[@ToabyToastbrot]

I think with all those things you said I don't get why we should really fight with ships carrying people , when engagements take place that far away from each other , i think a ship with Humans on board would bei far behinde any "line" of war andere would just control drones with detectors and weaponry from far away. Why risk your live when you can run away and let some robot die for you ?

[@TheRichardson711]

drones can be hacked. If our computers can speak with them from far away then so can other computers. AI robots are a different story though.

[@rewrose2838]

Drones can be hacked but before being hacked successfully they can be disposed off and then used as debris to take cover. If anything, controlling the battle-field and altering it by artificially adding debris would be more effective than AI controlled drones

[@ToabyToastbrot]

I'm pretty sure in a threedimentional space battle where the opponents are that far away debri wouldn't be such an issue. I's not like you could really block anything, any weaponry woud be too fast.

[@TheZephyrsWind]

True, but then wouldn't enemies seek out the control sources? Another thing is that while that would work, communication to an unmanned ship wouldn't be fast enough to deal with light speed attacks and such. Of course, neither would a manned ship be able to respond to such fast attacks. So yeah, like I've thought for a decade or so, we should stop sending soldiers out into battles and instead use remotely controlled things (here on Earth too), or use things that are automated. Throwing thousands of men out there to die, leaving behind their loved ones and such, that seems very outdated now that we already have the tech for unmanned warfare.

[@zariumsheridan3488]

In general drones can't be hacked - that's just a popular misconception. But you could try to jam their comms (between themselves and their mother ship). But if they already committed to attack - all jamming really achieves is blocking an "abort attack, return to base" command from the mothership :). Besides, drones (essentially unmanned fighters) are kind of silly in space. Missiles/torpedoes make more sense. a fighter needs to be sturdier to loiter around the enemy ship, needs to carry weapons, ammunition and fuel/propellant to maneuver and return to base. Basically a lot of dead weight for something whose sole goal is to hurt the enemy ship.

[@KalNertea]

Actually Battlestar Galactica got the topic of dogfights right. Exactly the way how you have described (turning to target enemy behind you while still fly the same direction). I'm a little bit disappointed that it was not taken into account :( Amazing show, much more accurate than most in topic of space battles (fun sound effects in space are included, but muted to depict hearing from inside of ship that shoots or is being shot.

[@atlantefou566]

ABout the heat problem, if you specifically are on a warship you could put your whole crew on light insulated spacesuits with cooling systems so that you spaceship could grow hotter before you have to surrender...

[@stuartwelch6432]

Space Battle 101: Step 1) Everyone get into a space suit, you don't want to get blasted into space, through a hole, into space without one. Step 2) Depressurize the ship. You don't want your ship to pop like a balloon the first time you get a hull puncture. Step 2a) This helps to prevent getting blasted into space. Step 3) And for God's sake, be strapped to something!!! A seat, a wall, something so that you don't "pinball" around inside the room you are in.

[@raptorjesus3894]

It gets even funner when you realise ships could effectively be EMP'd by the heat. Their electronics would require copper and gold cables, simply pump enough heat into the ship to melt them and suddenly all of it's systems are down and it's crew is in complete darkness. On the other hand a smart space-ship design would use conductive armor panels to transfer the heat away from any vital components and maybe even use it to power a weapon of sorts. You could also set up systems inside the ship that take all the excess heat and reuse it to power the ship aswell.

[@TheZephyrsWind]

I was thinking that as well! You stole my thought... a week earlier than I thought of it, but still!

[@DallasHerrmann]

If you get the ship hot enough to melt copper and gold, the crew is going to have bigger problems than systems failure.

[@MyklCarlton]

Refrigeration lasers. See Neal Asher and others.

[@shadfig7876]

You could do that, or you could just use cabels made from graphene. It has a melting point of more than 3.000°C, while copper melts at 1.085°C and gold at 1.064°C. It's also more bendable, doesn't rip as fast and is 1.5 times as conductive when it comes to electricity than Copper, but also 2 times as heat conductive than Copper. So in combination with your idea, this would be perfect. You could use the high conductivity of graphene to power these weapons, engines, or what ever more effective

[@UgandanAirForce]

there's something like this on some ships in Mass Effect lore. It said the panels would glow red hot and provide some psychological effect on pirates and shit.

[@Alomoes]

"There is no point in attempting to dodge beam fire." Char Aznable. Something like that, I don't really remember.

[@badbeardbill9956]

Char literally dodges beams

[@gishathosaurus6828]

The Expanse gets mentioned? nice

[@camerapasteurize7215]

Some of the best space battles I've read about were in Lost Fleet: Dauntless. Ships are engaging over vast distances inside solar systems, far enough away and moving fast enough to require the targeting systems to take relativity into account. All targeting and detection systems are visual based, as radar would take twice as long for the results to appear due to needing to bounce back. Communications are delayed, often by hours depending on the distance between ships. Momentum and pre-battle positioning is critical for an effective strategy, as orders and maneuvers are always delayed.

[@Paul-A01]

The best defense against a laser weapon wouldn't be reflector panels, but glitter bombs that diffuse the laser

[@xXTrentXxxX]

...Chaff..? Chaff, originally called Window by the British and Düppel by the Second World War era German Luftwaffe (from the Berlin suburb where it was first developed), is a radar countermeasure in which aircraft or other targets spread a cloud of small, thin pieces of aluminium, metallized glass fibre or plastic, which either ...

[@didgishdtube2169]

Why only panels? Wouldn't it be simply just a very good idea to polish the surface of your hull? Warfare Spaceships could be designed like the "Mercedes Silberpfeile", because polished aluminium can have a very high reflectivity (normally > 85% in a wide range of wavelength)

[@nikobellic4203]

Fabulous glitter countermeasures shall protect me in my future battles

[@pisscvre69]

A mirrored surface would be the best most sustainable defense but if they can maintain a shot on you for even a few seconds the leftover energy of what didn’t reflect would build up enough to not only damage your ship but cause the targeted area to turn to plasma and that rapid expansion would blow open your ship so you either have to have layers of backup so it only blows a hole in the outer layer or get used to space and no air and being sucked through the hole with lots of deadly debry

[@pisscvre69]

Also could have backup water system that can in desperate times be used to put some water between you and the attack which like the rain would protect you but you really don’t want to have to use water, And if they have a rail gun? You need some good counter measures something like anti misile misfiles only this is like trying to spot a bullet with a bullet so you’d need, -a really fast computer with access to a strong telescope so it can use only nanoseconds to calculate (and that’s if it’s farrrr) -a railguns of your own with a bigger round that can hit and have enough momentum to direct the shrapnel away from you -and luck lots and lots of luck Another thing that wouldn’t really be an issue in ship battles but bad for planets and stations is weaponised space debri If you attached rockets to a car sized rock and launched it at a space station they can’t stop it not entirely even if they blow it up the remains will tear through it, and on a planet? Add all that weight and gravity you get a massive area of destruction, from a car? A 1 mile crater with of course that only being the edge of the crator wall so an area probably closer to 3 miles around would be near certain death and dangerous at least up to 10 miles and if it causes any sizmic movement it could be dangerous even further depending on what it set off natural disasters could be caused 100’s of miles away, and that just from something the size of a car. So basically space war is pretty impractical in ships mostly, but in weaponized asteroids it’s the most terrifying thing we’ve ever created as a byproduct of science even worse depending on the size of the object than nukes.

[@chedsalvia6270]

something that bothers me about star wars: if jets and spacecrafts can travel in light speed, why doesn't the empire develop nukes that can travel in light speed? news like that should help you control the galaxy in the matter of days... and its more cost-effective than building a moon...

[@ObakeOnna]

You don't even need nukes. Just a big lump of inert mass. Attach light speed engines to an asteroid and send it flying into its target and the end result is an impact of planet-killing magnitude. You wouldn't even need a large asteroid to literally vaporize a planet if you got it to light speed. And considering that apparently an X-wing sized craft can jump to light speed, it would be insanely cheaper than a death star, and practically imposible to stop by anyone.

[@metroidserver]

Well... they kinda did that...

[@dieface12]

@@ObakeOnna Actually, X-Wings are unique in that regard. The only comparable ship of the time, the TIE fighter, had no hyperspace functionality - it was tied to its mothership. This is because they were produced cheaply and used for quantity over quality. The Rebellion, however, had limited resources to spend, especially in the human element, so rather than build many disposable craft, they instead invested significantly more capital into each X-Wing, creating fighters much more capable than their TIE opponents. In addition, the Rebellion favoured hit-and-run tactics, which are made far easier by the simple fact that even their fighter craft could independently jump to hyperspace to escape pursuit.

[@redsoldier7220]

Because they travel in an alternate dimension iirc, so it wouldn't interact with our dimension. But you still could teleport a nuke into the enemy ship, so... Also I'm disregarding TLJ, as it shit all over the canon lore

[@Vivi2372]

@@redsoldier7220 as if Star wars lore was remotely consistent before TLJ. 😜

[@1000animeboy]

People need to watch "The Expanse" it's so awesome and season 3 just started!!

[@axellkuller4488]

it sounds interesting, is it on Netflix?

[@1000animeboy]

Axell/ Kuller44 It should be.

[@BruslyBeast08]

People need to Read the Expanse. We just got Book 7 this Winter. It is so good.

[@BruslyBeast08]

@Axell/Kuller44 Pretty much everywhere but the US. In the US it is on Amazon Prime

[@williamshao1985]

ikr

[@lung0fish1]

I was thinking about this the other day, and came to the same conclusion: heat management is the key. The biggest radiator wins. Ships might carry thermal ballast they could eject/vent. Superconductive (or super-thermally-conductive) coatings could be critical for rapidly conducting heat from laser strikes to places to radiate/store/eject it. And don't forget, every maneuver has the potential to generate engine waste heat that might not all make it out the back.

[@deusexaethera]

Heat management in space is not nearly as big a deal as you suggest. Yes, it's hard to lose heat through radiation _at temperatures we are familiar with,_ but radiation is much more efficient if you can concentrate the waste-heat into a small, glowing-hot radiator. Heat pumps, aka air conditioners, can do this quite effectively, up to an arbitrarily high temperature on the "hot" side. The reason the ISS doesn't do this is because it lacks the energy supply to run high-powered heat pumps, but a hypothetical space battleship armed with gigawatt lasers would have more than enough power to pump all its waste heat into a set of small, glowing-hot, highly-efficient radiators.

[@roryschussler]

Honest question - doesn't the energy required to operate the heat pumps increase the higher the temperature of the radiator you're trying to push the heat into? If you tried to pump all the waste heat into a teeny-tiny radiator, wouldn't that make the venting system a whole lot less efficient?

[@deusexaethera]

The waste heat from the heat pump does get channeled into the radiator, yes. But assuming the heat pump is designed to handle the volume of heat it's burdened with, the heat pump's own waste heat will be a small percentage of the total. A very easy example is an undersized air conditioner, which will run continuously and burn a lot more electricity than an air conditioner properly rated for the room it's cooling.

[@Vastin]

Active cooling systems could certainly help alleviate the problem of overheating - but the intensity of heat generated by life-or-death combat might well overwhelm such a system, depending on how much energy you have available, and how much of the ship's mass you were willing to sacrifice for cooling systems. High power fusion drives and weapons systems are likely to create a VAST amount of waste heat, so there will likely be very real engineering limitations on how much heat your ships active cooling systems are able to effectively dump, given all the competing demands for engines, power, weapon systems, armor, fuel, and various crew support systems. So really, whether heat is a critical issue in space combat will likely come down to detailed engineering limitations and trade offs, as well as technological efficiency. Given that waste heat is a serious problem for TERRESTRIAL weapons systems, it's likely that those problems will only get considerably harder to deal with in space.

[@deusexaethera]

Yes, it is possible to exceed the capacity of the cooling system, but that isn't much of a revelation. It's possible to exceed the capacity of _any_ mechanical device -- it's up to the engineers who would design a spaceship to ensure they don't exceed the capacity of the cooling system even with all other systems running at full-load. As for the amount of energy needed to engage in combat, it's pretty minimal. Given that there are no known methods for generating active shielding on-demand, all you'd have to do is poke one-too-many holes in the enemy spaceship and then just wait for the crew to suffocate. You can do that extremely easily with a simple machine gun, since bullets have an unlimited range in space. And it wouldn't be hard to aim the aforementioned machine gun either, because even though it would take the bullets hours to travel tens of thousands of miles to the enemy target, they would be indistinguishable from background noise on the enemy's radar, so you could fire at the enemy without ever changing course to give away your intentions. The enemy would be surprised by a barrage of armor-piercing bullets with no warning, and that would be the end of the battle.

[@Vastin]

Firing bullets generates heat - a lot of it. Machine guns on earth are generally air or liquid cooled in order to maintain any substantial rate of fire without overheating and destroying the barrel. In space a kinetic launcher would absolutely require an active cooling system to keep its heat down in manageable ranges - and it would likely generate far more heat in the first place than its terrestrial counterpart, as you need extremely high projectile velocities and volumes to make a hit probable at 1000s of km against an evasive target. The target will be evading because it will almost certainly be able to detect the heat signature of your gun firing in the first place.. Each round you fire from a standard gun literally creates a small fireball of burning gas exhaust in the direction of fire - pretty hard to miss against the cold backdrop of space. Note that electromagnetic launchers like railguns do also generate a great deal of waste heat - not to mention an EM energy spike that might also be detectable by the intended target. If you really want to ambush a target in space, your best bet would probably be to use missiles that accelerate their initial stage with nothing but pressurized gas propulsion - incredibly slow and inefficient, but probably very hard to detect - until they (likely hours or days later), get relatively close to their target and then activate a terminal stage high-power rocket to home in and destroy their target from a fairly short distance. Obviously this tactic only works if the target is essentially stationary or moving on a predictable course for an extended period of time, otherwise your very slow stealth missile will never catch up with them.

[@tommydoez]

in an event of a space confrontation like star wars where the figthers are blown up, wouldn't the shrapnel from the explosion make any spaceship at a medium radius, say 500m - 1km, at risk from being hit by this speeding shrapnel, so much so that a chain reaction of ships blowing up can be caused?

[@Soldier4USA2005]

Yes. That's true. Such "shrapnel" is why we're on the verge of cutting ourselves off from space. It's all of the bits and pieces from ships/cargo vessels/etc we've put into space. Neil Tyson goes into this several times. kzbin.info/www/bejne/a4PSn5WcYtdrerc

[@MatterBeamTSF]

Quite right. Shrapnel will escape the exploding spaceship at 0.3 to 3km/s. It will be like shooting bullets at everything around the exploding spaceship.

[@zenhydra]

Tommy DoeZ!!! One must keep in mind that "medium" range in space combat may be many thousands of kilometers. The mass of the exploded ship will be diffusing into a huge volume of space. Even flying directly through the point where the enemy vessel detonated, the odds of striking any debris would be very small.

[@solalflechelles1216]

No. The shrapnel would go fast in absolute speed - but not in speed relative to the ship (assuming the 2 ships firing at each other had relatively similar orbits). The shrapnel would thus easily be blocked by the hull.

[@moonasha]

anyone else see the Abaddon, Apocolypse, and Megathron at 5:20?

[@potatocatthebean4350]

moonasha Another spreadsheet warrior, I see!

[@JonatasAdoM]

Oh thanks for pointing it out I've also seen it!

[@michac3796]

Forgot the Tornado did we?

[@JonatasAdoM]

micha c Sometimes you know the shape but you forgot how it's called.

[@fightingtypegymleadermicha1539]

well a lot of those battles are from far distances that you can't see each other and take into account 3d space... though even 200km is not enough to make you not able to see a titan

[@xavierburval4128]

I don’t think he really acknowledged how important stealth would be in a space battle. Since every weapon would have 100% accuracy, the only way to not get hit is to not let your opponent know where you are and where you’re going. This means that ships would be designed to minimize radar cross-sections, and also heat signatures, much like current stealth aircraft. Depending on the weapons used, various defense mechanisms would need to be adapted. For example, if laser technology becomes the norm, then having reflective armor would be useful to deflect enemy shots. Against thermal seeking missiles, flares would actually be used just like real dogfighting to confuse the targeting systems. But the best defense would still be to never be seen. If you have a laser that travels at lightspeed, your target literally cannot see it coming until it hit them, so whoever shoots first would automatically win. It’s interesting to think about but terrifying to imagine. Just think about what it would be like to be in a military ship, scanning for enemy targets, when suddenly you get an alarm and you realize your O2 tanks have been lasered. With no warning, your lifespan becomes mere minutes, and you can’t do anything.

[@BaconHer0]

The most economical way to have space battles: Just have unmanned space probes hang around in space, when a threat appears command them to ram into said threat. The first side to run out of probes have to surrender because orbital strikes are simply OP

[@DarthBiomech]

So basically make a mine field, which are useless in space?

[@BaconHer0]

No, not a mine field. In space you don't need missile silos to house your missiles or kinetic propulsion weapons. It could in theory have an effective range covering the solar system

[@stevepirie8130]

I get what you mean, you would of course need a type of IFF to prevent friendly fire. To be efficient cost wise perhaps a way of 3D printing replacements at an orbital supply/HQ depot would be best rather than replace by sending up more from the surface?

[@sorcdk2880]

The problem is signal times, which makes drones much less usefull for remote engagements. This means that such crafts needs to be autonomious. This in turn means you need targeting in the system, IFF, sensors, electronic shielding and so on. There are tons of problems with this, and considering that those components are lost upon ramming attacks and the efficiency of point defense it might not at all be the most economical solution. That said, it is still very likely that space combat will be dominated by unmmanned vessels, since you can allow such vessels to experiance much higher accelerations during combat (and the cross section of a dumb line ordinance is proportional to deltaT/a^4 and deltaT/a^6 for dumb point, where deltaT is the time to hit the target from the time the signal traced with originated from the target, while a is the acceleration).

[@pauulthefair]

I suggest you read We Are LEgion (We Are Bob), they do that.

[@RipperMaggoo]

The Halo books do a great job at showing how crazy long range space battles would be. Enemy ships hundreds of thousands of kilometers away firing different kinds of weapons at each other and the insane calculations needed to make that happen.

[@Green-cactus.]

Im disappointed that so few mention halo

[@DSlyde]

Spinning works. If you're being hit with a laser beam, you don't want it boring into the same place for long enough to actually get through to something vital, so spinning and thus denying your enemy the ability to concentrate fire on a single place long enough to burn through is a valid tactic.

[@sacr3]

Somewhat, yes, but when spinning you still have a central axis on which you spin, you could just aim there with the laser. Maneuvering around, well if we're using seriously advanced and precise robotics and motors to control that laser, it'll simply follow you, just as simplistic cameras can track your face while you move your head around, cameras in advanced ships can track a single point on that ship with extreme accuracy and since there is no lag with that laser beam, having it follow that focused point would be easy on a moving target. Unless it was extremely erratic, than its a bit more difficult (with todays technology) to accurately predict and track its movement to keep it focused.

[@joelv4495]

Better than spinning would be rotating your entire ship, presenting different sides at a time. But you brought up another good point... SW was based on WWII dogfighting, and automated targeting systems were cutting edge when the movie came out, but given what we know today, there'd be no point whatsoever for the Millennium Falcon to have a manned turret.

[@kauske]

Joel V In WWII there were allready remote operated turrets on bombers. By the 70's the CWIS and other fully automated weapons were in development. The US made CWIS entered military use in 1980, with development that lasted long before that. Most writers just don't care enough to research the tech and want to tell a story more than build a world.

[@petersmythe6462]

Yes, although I suspect much of the time that ships will have actual dedicated armor and just point that at the enemy.

[@Null_Experis]

Competition Shooting. I imagine the Falcon wasn't designed as a warship, but more of a yacht. Good for racing, doing target shooting runs, and cruising the galaxy. I can see Solo entering a Galactic Triathlon where there is a portion of the race where the co-pilot needs to manually shoot at designated targets along the race track. A manual gun would be useless in real fighting, but maybe a force-sensitive Jedi could use their powers to target like a computer. A good writer would have used that scene to foreshadow Luke's final scene in the trench run.

[@NegInfinity]

It is an old video, but there are couple of minor issues. For example, briefly mentioned surface wars and being blocked by 5 kilometer horizon. That's the reason why we have artillery. Parabolic shot can hit targets up to 30 kilometers, then we have rockets which can hit up to thousand kilometers, and why there's recon aviation which extends vision range. Regarding lasers in space, the problem here is that lasers are not impact weapons. They take time to melt the target. However they're aimed by mechanical systems, and to target something ten thousand kilometers away, you'd need some incredibly precise aiming system. In this scenario maneuvers become a plausible way to avoid being hit by a laser. Next there's a fun part where the armor does not have to be a part of the ship. You can literally make a metal plate float next to your ship, and a laser will melt the plate and not the ship. Laser being blocked by rain is another tactic that is usable in space. You can spray ice particles in vacuum and they'll work as defense against the laser. You can also spray metal articles that will work as chaff. Then we have fun parts about visibility. You can hide entire fleets in shadow of a planet, and there will be no way to spot them. As a result this becomes a "space submarine war". Speaking of planets... the planets are your cover. You can't blow up a planet with a puny laser, but your enemy can absolutely stay close to surface and either plink at you from beyond planet's horizon, or go atmospheric, which will make laser weaponry nearly defunct. And in atmospheric battle there will be dogfights. That's if we do not forget about debris traps.

[@taoofjester4113]

Armor is factored in for the majority of space battles. However, the armor is attached as you don't want a free floating piece of metal when you try to turn or whatever. The amount of time it would take a laser to travel tens of thousands of KM makes avoiding it impossible. Sure, you could deploy ice and all that, but a couple of problems pop up. The ice will not stop any laser completely or even that long. But say for sake of argument that it can, that ice would also eliminate the ability to shoot back. Sonar works perfectly fine in space, so trying to hide in the shadow of a planet doesn't help. Not sure what you mean by shooting from the surface of a planet in such a way that the enemy cannot shoot back. A decent guidance system can take into account gravity and friction in order to land the shot. Or just position four spaceships and have everything covered. Potentially even two depending on the distance from the planet. But honestly, if you are going to kill people on a planet and don't care if the planet is habital afterwards, just get some big rocks and send them towards the planet. Hell, even a long piece of metal will utterly destroy a city. That is why the Deathstar was kinda stupid. You don't need a big laser to destroy a planet. A sufficiently large rock can do just as much for a lot less money.

[@fiftyfat]

I had hope you would talk about the Expanse ! It's really cool to see them try to be the most realistic possible, taking into account the strong acceleration that the crew has to endure and the fact that propulsion is done in two phases. orientation of the ship is done by smaller "air blasting" holes and propulsion is done afterwards by the main reactor.

[@MatterBeamTSF]

Yeah, The Expanse does a lot of things correctly.

[@mspilot8283]

Pretty big expanse fan, this was music to my ears

[@zenhydra]

Everything that the show does well, the books do even better. I definitely recommend checking out the text (or audio book) versions of the novels.

[@mspilot8283]

Actually I am on book 4 currently. Excellent series.

[@HappyFluegel]

I love the tv series and from what I hear I will need to get the books soon

[@MisterBones2910]

I liked how Starship Troopers (the book) just ignored space combat, and Dune made it untenable because of the Guild's monopoly on space travel.

[@JohnStephenWeck]

Greetings. Most authors write about what they know, and then just vary the story a bit to fit the target audience. Heinlein just wanted to write about grunts in world war 2. Herbert wanted to write an epic sailing/trade story about the history of some high demand commodity (like spices or oil). From a scientific perspective, Herbert has several big problems. First - in the future everything will be automated by computers but he didn't know anything about them. Second, space battles are the arena that decide the war, not the surface of a planet. Nobody just has trade guilds - they have warships too that allow the trade ships to function at all. Third, the spice is just nonsense - you name it, and it does it (and the most probable commodity of the future is information). Fourth, the ecology of Dune doesn't work. It's mostly just sand mysteriously supporting giant animals - what are they eating? Rocks? Fifth - why are the people in the Dune solar system not mining water in their outer solar system (planets or comets) and slowly filling Arrakis with water? Without that there is no way they are going to magically change the ecology of the planet.

[@MisterBones2910]

I know the reasoning, but I do have some counterpoints. For one, Heinlein didn't intend an allegory for WW2 particularly, more just war in general; (He served as a Navyman before the war broke out but was discharged on medical leave. Think of Full Metal Jacket, despite being set during it, it wasn't exactly a Vietnam story was it?) and Frank's story was more particularly about the ecology and politics, the trading (in the form of CHOAM) really played very little part in it past being a monopolistic force along with the Spacing Guild that the other factions battled and maneuvered to control. I hate to imply you don't know much about Dune, but all of the things you described are explained quite easily and well by the setting and things you discover in the later books, or are an over-exaggeration in the case of The Spice. The Spice has a few principle properties: It tastes slightly different for everyone sort of like cilantro but more generally like cinnamon, it has a "geriatric effect" extending the life of long-time users, not unlike the common ideas of so-called miracle drugs in science fiction at the time; it can be made into a material similar to plastics like many real-life plants, (see pith helmet) and lastly it has the admittedly science fantasy attribute of unlocking "the full potential" of the human mind. The potential effects of which are improving Mentats' computation ability, (which they have from breeding, training, and other drugs) allowing someone who can survive an immense overdose of it to interact with racial memories, and someone who's been immersed in it to the point that it alters their physiology can see brief glimpses into the future, with total future-sight being only attainable to the product of tens of thousands of generations of eugenics to create a man who can survive "The Spice Agony" as it's called, successfully receive Mentat training, and is otherwise vastly improved of the general stock of the human race. I could explain your other problems, but It'd probably be easier to read the books rather than my walls of text at that point, ha.

[@JohnStephenWeck]

Ok good talking to you Bones. I've read all the Dune books. ;)

[@jeric_synergy8581]

Fun stuff guys. BUT! >8^): _-The Guild had no interest in allowing Arrakis to be gardened, that would be fatal to them. It's the ONLY source of spice, and the organisms that create spice hate water. IOW, the Guild would PREVENT any importation of water from elsewhere in the system. And, IIRC, they had a complete monopoly on space travel, not just intersteller but also interplanetary. (Original 4 books only.) Fun! As for Starship Troopers: I think Heinlein was focused in the narrative solely on INFANTRY. I mean, some ships got killed, but it was not the focus of the book.

[@MisterBones2910]

Well yeah, but none of that contradicts what I said.

[@JoshuaSigloch]

Love the addition of EVE ships in this episode and so long awesome space war future. Oh and anyone else remember the Mass Effect commander talking about Isaac Newton?

[@lasarith2]

Joshua Sigloch gotta Amarr him for that.

[@MatterBeamTSF]

Deadliest son of a b*tch in space, he is.

[@kpag3030]

Star Wars and Star Trek weapons are projectiles, so they don’t travel at light speed. Well, except for the cutting laser in Star Trek. They don’t really dodge weapon fire in Star Trek, just increase shields, except when they are trying to dodge photon torpedoes which are physical projectiles.

[@Jukrates]

If you miss, your photon torpedo will eventually collide with a random alien

[@kingsempire4270]

Alien engineer: Finally, after a thousand years, we have finished building our giant spaceship to escape our dying planet! *random photon torpedo hits said escape ship*

[@nerdygeek4845]

*giant spaceship explodes* Where tf did that come from? *another faction joins the war*

[@creaturedanaaaaa]

*smash brothers animation* Some random alien species comes flying in!

[@unofonseca2862]

And that is why sir isaac newton is the deadliest sun of a female dog in space!

[@AlorielLelyn]

While technically true that it might eventually collide with something. It is most likely to run into a gas giant or star if it gets caught in the well of one of those. Also, it would take literally hundreds of thousands of years for it to reach another star system if traveling at modern speeds. That also assumes that it is on an escape vector, not stuck in an orbit.

[@dereckaddie408]

Babylon 5 was the closest I have seen to realistic fighter combat and the early Star Trek made a point that there view screen was magnified.

[@fof1353]

I would say BSG has most realistic fights only thing that doesn't explain is heat

[@impguardwarhamer]

I mean realistic space fighter combat is just a lot of dead fighters. Even more if they're manned and you dont have some kind of gee-force dampening science which is probably impossible with current science. The Expanse is pretty realistic tho

[@BigDictator5335]

Babylon 5 is silly. You only need one engine and a reaction wheel. You don't need engines pointing in every direction.

[@impguardwarhamer]

@@BigDictator5335 haven't seen the show but not necessarily. When evaluating something as far out as space combat you really have little idea what tech will arise and what hidden engineering challenges you will encounter. Alot of things you can write off or make good guesses, but something like that is too small of a difference to make an educated guess. (oh and I think you mean some kind of ACS system, reaction wheels have no where near enough torque for a space fighter)

[@BigDictator5335]

@@impguardwarhamer they don't need to be maneuverable when they're shooting at each other from across the solar system.

[@maxpower19711]

In the expanse they depressurize the ships before battles, this would help prevent overheating of the ship.

[@MrMonkeybat]

No that would just make all there laptops overheat. You are just removing a way for distributing heat not cooling things down at all.

[@mikevdg2]

Depressurizing the ship would help with not losing expensive air.

[@Null_Experis]

the depressurization itself would drop the temps in the ship a huge amount. We also saw that ships like the Rocinante had in-wall fluid transport systems (they rigged them to grow plants on the walls in planter boxes). These would be used to manage and move heat, and could be vented in an emergency.

[@lumburgapalooza]

and also it would prevent a hull puncture from causing rapid depressurization, which would be quite distracting for the crew

[@weiwu1442]

They depressurized the ship so that escaping air won't mess with their maneuver thrusters

[@padlibrary7801]

6:56 Great miming!

[@jaymib3202]

the expanse does such a great job with science in space. it's just so amazing.

[@zenhydra]

I think another potential component of space combat might be the use of unmanned picquet vessels. These autonomous vehicles would travel in an extremely dispersed formation around the manned ship. They would be able to share sensor data through a point-to-point network. On sensing a threat the manned vehicle could go dark, while the drones remain active and engage the enemy. The drones would have a significantly higher tolerance for heat build-up and high-G maneuvers than a meat-filled ship, and if space combat can be likened to submarine combat, these drones I'm proposing would be like mobile sonobuoys that could launch their own torpedos.

[@MatterBeamTSF]

This is the optimal configuration, yes. Advanced sensor platforms report the position of the target to a mothership equipped with a ginormous laser. If the target fires back, its vulnerable optics can be taken out by small lasers on the picket ships. If fires missiles, the picket ships can sacrifice themselves to intercept them.

[@zenhydra]

There are any number of reasons one might need a drone to accelerate faster than the survivable threshold for humans (e.g. re-positioning for acquisition of a target behind cover), and we can't assume that directed energy weapons will be the weapon system de jour. Guided missiles and dumbfire projectiles would almost certainly be used in a space warfare scenario (if for no other reason than efficiency), and the ability for a drone to move far beyond the safe limits for human occupants could absolutely make a difference against such weapons.

[@clockwork_mind]

Wow I can't believe that I haven't thought of this before. They have super advanced A.I. droids. Why are they not flying the ships? The only reason I can think of is that there's a space law saying that in battle, you have to have actual human assets fighting for you, not disposable droids. Or maybe they don't want to weaponise their A.I. in case they go rogue. But if that's the case, they have already given droids too much power. They can hack into databases, make repairs or sabatoges on ships, and gain control of a ship's navigation computer.

[@zenhydra]

Real AI doesn't work like film and television would have you think. It only has the ability and independence that it is allowed, and doesn't operate like a human brain. We may be able to one day simulate the processes of a human brain to a high degree, but that is a long way off and of questionable merit.

[@clockwork_mind]

Zen Hydra yeah that makes sense. But I still think that people will ALWAYS be paranoid about AI and not want to give them control of ships. That's one of the only reasons I can think of that they don't have most of the crew consisting of droids. That, or a space law against them, similar to the few space laws that we currently have, like ownership of the Moon, and bombs in space. But in that case, I don't imagine that the Empire would have any problem with breaking those laws. The Sith had the right idea in using droids for everything in movies I-III.

[@Dasmaster1]

These are interesting discussions but also it is problematic because it does not take into consideration a shifting perspective. We have always had an idea of the ideal form of combat yet it is always shifting even though we have tried to perfect it at every turn. Sometimes there is a breakthrough in tactics, sometimes there are new technologies and sometimes its something unexpected. To draw an analogy to history, the space warfare that you are describing with long range engagements is sort of similar to our old style of trench warfare. Our weapon technology has far outstripped our other capabilities making a strategy focusing on having the best weapons technology the only option. If your guns had 1% more range than your opponents you would try use that to the best of your ability, otherwise just staying as far away as possible where the weapons have less effect is your only chance to defend yourself. What changed our ideal warfare from trench warfare to a more mobile warfare was the advent of new mobility and armor technologies.. the tank. The same would probably also happen in space battles and depending on what technologies are discovered it will look very different. For example if you could somehow bend space you could possibly create scenario where you cant draw a straight line from the enemy ship to your ship rendering any direct fire weapons such as lasers or cannons useless. You would need to fire something like a missile to reach around the curvature until you found a part of it that can access the inside of the shield or if the shield is not spherical just around it in general. A technology like this would by itself change the face of combat to one where missile defense is extremely important and getting surrounded would be instantly fatal, yet ships would want to cluster together so that the anti-missile defense can cover each other. It would also incentivize fleets to get closer and try outflank eachother to be able to bypass the shield with good ol fashioned maneuvering.

[@Dasmaster1]

A black hole is not intentionally trying to distort spacetime. It is just sort of a side effect.

[@Dasmaster1]

Actually that is not entirely correct. There are various ways to manipulate the spacetime such as for example how gravitational waves are generated. According to you that region of space should have the same mass-energy at all time if two suns for example are in a stable orbit but their motion would create ripples in the fabric of spacetime which means you can manipulate spacetime using energy as opposed to relying on just the normal properties of mass and energy.

[@Dasmaster1]

So what, you say gravitational waves is not the result of motion which distorts the fabric of space in which case we have a direct means to actually warp spacetime using pure energy regardless of what other amazing future innovations we come up with that could do it better?

[@Dasmaster1]

@Zev Wihite How so?

[@pseudonymous1382]

*Das Neko* Isaac Arthur is a great source of realistic approaches to futuristic topics, and he's done a video on this very topic. To put it succinctly why you're wrong: _missiles are pretty much _*_useless_*_ in space_ , unless traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light. Lasers are useless at very long distances, and, again, conventional weapons are useless at close quarters unless traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light. The inverse is also true: lasers are best suited when used at distances within several light seconds (300 million meters * X), whereas projectile weapons are best suited at long distances because they are maneuverable. To counter a laser, you just need to be more than several light seconds away from another craft, so that craft A sees what craft B several seconds ago; randomly moving in any XY direction (assuming the other craft is perpendicular with your Z) ensures that wherever their laser is pointed will be off by potentially thousands of kilometers. Likewise, since lasers travel at 3*10^8 m/s a missile can easily be shot down by a laser if it's sighted within ~300,000 kilometers. Also *ES458* is right, manipulating space requires astronomical amounts of energy and/or mass not conceivably possible. For example, the "Alcubierre drive", though theoretically possible, requires equal proportions of extreme matter and anti-matter to stretch and squeeze space; its not even remotely possible by any stretch of the imagination given how prohibitively expensive and dangerous anti-matter is to produce let alone the fact that having what basically amounts to a singularity directly in front of your ship and and anti-singularity behind it all the while somehow manipulating both for steering puts it firmly in the position of science fiction.

[@alextilson9741]

There are other ways of cooling down, the trick is to transfer that heat into some mass and then either jettison it or store it in a partially disconnected part of the ship. (Peltier devices are really cool, no really, check it out :P )

[@apple222sickly]

starships resurrected explains why some star trek ships have wings, to dump heat, and in star trek you can convert energy (which can be heat) into matter, and in an episode in star trek voyager life support lost power, the ship wasn't cooling down, it was heating