The truth about the Book of Abraham | with Kerry Muhlestein

[@Baikanon]

I love Kerry. I took one religion class from him, and was so impressed I took as many as he offered.

[@franklinanderson9687]

As far as I can tell any non-LDS Egyptologists think Gee and Muhlestein's Book of Abraham scholarship is abhorrent and ridiculous.

[@carlosealcobia]

​@@franklinanderson9687That's right!

[@advocate7643]

"The remainder of this month, I was continually engaged in translating an alphabet to the Book of Abraham, and arrangeing a grammar of the Egyptian language as practiced by the ancients" -Josephs Smith, Journal Entry July 1835 JS studied Egyptian, implying he was attempting a literal translation.

[@AgrippaTheMighty]

And he was, but even the mormon church has admitted that the facsimiles of the BOA are in reality a common funerary text showing, for example, in facsimile 1 the 4 jars under the bed representing the 4 sons of Horus and containing the organs of the deseased.

[@blusheep2]

@@AgrippaTheMighty They had to admit that because it became obvious that they were. The problem is that Joseph said what wasn't true. In his journal he even drew in the missing scraps and did so wrong. He told us it was a scene of priests trying to sacrifice Abraham. All wrong. Call a spade a spade and ask yourself if you can still reconcile him as a prophet or not.

[@AgrippaTheMighty]

@@blusheep2 I sure can't!

[@blusheep2]

@@AgrippaTheMighty Nor can I. This isn't my main reason but it sure is icing on the cake.

[@carlosealcobia]

One fraud !!! Scandal

[@bambie1830]

No matter what you believe about the book. Kerry is an amazing person with a great family of good people. Knowing him personally as a non practicing Mormon I’ll stand on that hill. If you are a student he’s a great professor. He is honest about his assumptions which shows how honest he is. The man is a stud regardless of your faith.

[@ardoario4990]

And that is why, faith in God is a beautiful thing. Study, search, research, meditate, talk to God and ask Him. Against these things there is no law…it doesn’t not matter what anyone else says….

[@kirklandmeadows]

I remember someone saying "research is not the answer"

[@ardoario4990]

@@kirklandmeadows right, it’s not, research is part of the process that leads to the answer BUT the answer, the answer is always God the almighty.

[@kirklandmeadows]

@@ardoario4990 to clarify research is a part of the process then God gives you the answer,that's may or may not be in the reseach.

[@harryhenderson2479]

Yes, do all the research you can but if God tells you all your research is wrong, go with that! …🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[@macarc9318]

I would suggest the problem is that Joseph Smith said it was a literal translation but later church leaders say he was inspired by it and not a literal translation solving the problem of the book of Abraham not having anything to do with the papyrus. unfortunately this confirms that Joseph Smith was not a prophet as described by Jesus

[@JIKOKALOL]

Exactly. But you can't convince fools.

[@TS-xl5ul]

How he used the word translation is very different from how we use it, but you don't want to hear that do you?

[@RyanMercer]

"Truth?! You can't handle the truth!!!"

[@quemaspana]

The alligator god associated with the pharaoh, is also found in Adam Clarke's bible commentary.

[@dougandjyness]

well well well.....good catch.

[@MichaelSmith-fq3pg]

Do you remember where in Clarke's Bible Commentary?

[@quemaspana]

@@MichaelSmith-fq3pg Clarke, Holy Bible, 1:281; s.v. Ex. 1:11. You can read about it more here: Vogel, Dan. Book of Abraham Apologetics: A Review and Critique (p. 225). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.

[@MichaelSmith-fq3pg]

@@quemaspana Thank you 👍

[@noelhausler2911]

Was the standing figure in facsimile 1 holding a knife or a jar? An Egyptologist from the University of Exeter when I asked his opinion sent me a picture of Anubis in an embalming scene holding a jar. In Facsimile 2 the church does not have the original but has a sketch which shows when removed parts were missing. When published in the Times and Seasons the gaps were filled with symbols from the Book of Breathings which was hieratic where the majority of it was hieroglyphs. I am studying the book with some help from a SC friend How to Read egyptian by Mark Collier and Bill Manley.

[@BlaineHeggie]

C'mon! This interview was WAY TOO SHORT! Give us more, please!

[@Red-gp9hn]

I agree!

[@BlaineHeggie]

@@Jozeemoss Whatever you're talking about...ZZZzzz....

[@BlaineHeggie]

@@Jozeemoss Yes, the truth does matter, so stop fighting against it.

[@franklinanderson9687]

Anymore and they risk letting the cat out of the bag. Like Joseph Smith translated the egyptian language written on facsimile #2 #3 100% wrong.

[@BlaineHeggie]

ZZZzzz... @@franklinanderson9687

[@quemaspana]

No researchers come in without pre-conceived biases, however good researchers try to account for those, rather than embrace them, and are always willing to change their interpretation based on the evidence. That is the difference between real researchers and and what makes Kerry more of an apologist than a researcher.

[@dannytay]

This comment seems biased 😉

[@quemaspana]

​@@dannytayRight? Fortunately my biases are the truth. How lucky I am! /s

[@paulgregersen3570]

​​​​@@quemaspanaA n on LDS Egyptologist agrees with my conclusions about the catalyst theory supported by the 1st presidency church authorities. Not BYU. Link utube title "(book of Abraham scholar critic admits I'm right)" type in exact title to get there

[@salvatorecollura2692]

“I start out with an assumption that the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon, and anything else that we get from the restored gospel, is true…Therefore, any evidence I find, I will try to fit into that paradigm.…There are those who will assume that it’s not true, and on these points we’ll just have to agree to disagree. But we will understand one another better when we understand how our beginning assumptions color the way we filter all of the evidence that we find….But revelation is a source of knowledge that can be trusted over the years…It is a safe source of knowledge. That method of learning is one that I feel comfortable in trusting.…We should pursue things with our mind, but we should also pursue it with the part of our mind that listens to the Holy Ghost.” A frightening exposition of motivated reasoning.

[@AgrippaTheMighty]

Sorry, but that's a logical fallacy. By your token, I can assume the Olympian Gods are true and exist and then look for reasoning and evidence that support my belief. We cannot conclude anything is real until the evidence shows that. BTW, that's how we all operate. From picking up a butter knife to spread peanut butter on my slice of bread to feeling loved by one's family and friends. Just my 2 cents.

[@salvatorecollura2692]

@@AgrippaTheMighty I wholeheartedly agree. I believe Muhlestein’s reasoning is deeply troubling

[@salvatorecollura2692]

@mocknews True meaning an ancient record of Semitic inhabitants of the Americas? Certainly not.

[@AgrippaTheMighty]

@mocknews The BoA is totally NOT true. Therefore, neither is the BoM.

[@carlosealcobia]

​@mocknewsAbsolutely not

[@timothyneal6650]

I'm a Latter Day Saint! Have been since 2019! I've read the book of Abraham.

[@lootingiv4058]

@@Jozeemoss You arent supposed to remove anything or add anything from the bible right? well you are removing by not accepting the word of God in the Book of Mormon, D and C, and Pearl of Great Price

[@zionmama150]

@@lootingiv4058the Lord can add to His own word by instructing a prophet to do so.

[@Compulsive-Elk7103]

​@@zionmama150he sure can but he never appeared to Joseph Smith

[@zionmama150]

@@Compulsive-Elk7103 how do you know that God and Jesus didn’t appear to Joseph Smith?

[@jeremims9044]

​@@lootingiv4058weak argument. Where does it say that specifically. And don't quote Revelations because the Bible was not constructed the way it currently is when that came forth.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Im going to read his book and hopefully do an interview with him in the next year! This is a important topic to address as one which causes lots to lose faith

[@dougandjyness]

Great Idea, Please make it a long form discussion ( 1.5-2 hr ) where you both go in depth on both sides of the argument. In all of my searching I am yet to see anyone really go into the detail on the faith promoting side and explain how they retain their faith with out mental gymnastics. I don't mean this to be snarky.....this genuinely needs to happen for those who go down this rabbit hole and want to stay and still retain their integrity.

[@jasongast1806]

@@gordianknot9595can you provide a link to the characters?

[@beefmaster4]

​​@@dougandjyness guess you'd have to start by defining mental gymnastics. How much thinking is allowed? I have found a lot in my searching, but maybe we draw the line of gymnastics in different places. I would also appreciate a discussion on both sides.

[@livingtruth2374]

@@gordianknot9595 Oh, that's what you wish for, don't you? "all emotional and psychological" - even when the actual truth is staring you in the face. It's almost as if you didn't listen to Kerry. Mouthing these unsupported words: "We literally can see the characters they used in their work and read them. We also can read the text where it tells the reader about the papyrus and facsimiles" - this is not only simplistic as Dr. Muhlestein pointed out, it's not factual either, because there is WIDE disagreement on what the characters mean, even among Egyptologists, and it's already been demonstrated that they are often wrong on what the ancient Egyptians thought they meant with individual characters - this has been proven in excavations that revealed the ancient interpretations. Don't you know that? And we know (or at least vast majority of the evidence demonstrates) that the Prophet Joseph was not translating from the areas near the facsimiles, but from the long roll.

[@BrendonKing]

@@livingtruth2374 The irony of saying "we can see all these characters and read them" and "unsupported" in the same breath.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

The church position on the BA is that it can be seen by members as either a work of translation or inspiration. It is hard to verify as a translation since the manuscript was lost in the Chicago fire.

[@Mustardmanor]

The scrolls were located. If you compare the scrolls' characters with those that Joseph smith copied into his translation papers the order of the characters is the same. It also shows that there is no missing scroll. Now that they're published in the Joseph smith papers, it is clear that the scrolls are complete and there is nothing missing. Joseph smith indicated this was a translation. He even indicated this was so.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@BunnyWatson-k1w Not really, what you stated before has always been the position of the Church, just not always that of the culture.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@Mustardmanor It doesn't seem that you have actually read the Joseph Smith Papers since that is not the conclusion they make.

[@Mustardmanor]

@@brettmajeske3525 I have looked at the Joseph smith papers. He has the symbols written down and what they mean next to it. Pages of them. What is clear is that the surviving papyrus do not translate to what Joseph smith wrote down. if the whole thing was inspiration, that is not how Joseph smith viewed his work when he was going to translate the scrolls. When the LDS church got copies of the papyrus they were very excited to prove Joseph smith was correct and hired several scholars to translate the scrolls. But... The results didn't match. The fact that this is up for debate is odd. The translations don't match. We can then say the whole thing was inspiration but that's changing the narrative.

[@Mustardmanor]

@@brettmajeske3525 the links are under book of Abraham and Egyptian materials on the Joseph smith papers website. Numerous character sheets with translations. It was published as a translation. It was published in the times.and seasons as being the words of Abraham written by his own hand. We could argue that Joseph smith or even the printers were mistaken. Or we could say that it was all inspiration and revelation. We could say that it wasn't actually written by Abraham or about Abraham. All of those support the idea through apologetics that the book is still valid scripture. It is rewriting the history. That is called revisionist history as we're just rewriting what Joseph smith said to fit our own spiritual bias to support our own beliefs. It is not how historians work. (however, remember that boyd k packer spoke against historians... Enemies to the church.) Historians look from both sides. Anyone who benefits from publishing the materials in book form also has a bias as they want to sell copies of the book and support their research. Every non-lds egyptologist has discredited the translations. Every LDS egyptologist rewrites the narrative to support the faith. I read one interview with a non-lds expert who stated it is simply a fraudulent translation. As I said, we can each choose to cling desperately to any idea which allows us to fit it into our faith still, but that is not without its own clear biases. I'd send the link but I don't think KZbin likes hyperlinks.

[@Reazzurro90]

His professional capacity as an Egyptologist shouldn't be questioned based on his opinions regarding the Book of Abraham and its source material. However, his defense of Smith's translation, though understandable, is extremely weak. Smith was very clear that he translated the material and not that he viewed it and had a revelation.

[@dougandjyness]

As a 40 year old, High-council, recent deconstructionist of my Mormon faith, I spent the time and looked at both sides fully in depth, I would now consider my opinion after reading countless hours from all sides to be completely unbiased as I now have no dog in the fight. I admit I could be completely wrong and if more historical documents come forth tipping the scales toward the Kerry Muhlestein argument I am willing to change my mind. having said that I only base my opinions on the evidence that we have.....and there is a lot of it. I have come to the conclusion that there is no argument that holds any water that this was a translation....by osmosis or catalyst.....I believe he made it up. The evidence is there for those who what to look. A good place to start is Dr. Robert Ritner.

[@richardholmes5676]

Robert Ritner? That crap from Ritner and the other arrogant Egyptologists was debunked, proven stupid. Google Book of Abraham pt 5 Why Egyptologists are wrong you tube instead.

[@brooklyna8943]

@dougandjyness I would love some resources you used to learn the truth. I’m trying to help my husband see and understand that it is made up. Including the Book of Mormon.

[@livingtruth2374]

As long-time member, High Council, still strong in the faith. Ritner? His whole thesis is flawed from its foundation, and both Kerry Muhlestein and John Gee have clearly demonstrated that his conclusions are wrong, because the underlying assumptions he started with are not true. And he destroyed his own objectivity when he denigrated Dr. Hugh Nibley on a personal level, Ritner did, in the introduction of his book, also referred to Dr. Muhlestein as "that Mormon in Provo" - completely denigrating and dismissing his academic expertise and Egyptological credentials on personal religious grounds - a form of religious and academic bigotry. Then, to boot, showing up on anti-Latter-day Saint online channels to give long interviews pontificating against the Book of Abraham's authenticity.

[@richardholmes5676]

Have you watched the video I suggested 10 days ago? Paul Gregersen debunked the arrogant Egyptologists by presenting proper interpretation, what are your thoughts on the video?

[@jeremims9044]

​@livingtruth2374 I would love to know which underlying assumptions you are referring to. I am a believing member but have a loved one that used his arguments as evidence

[@medeekdesign]

If you go down the Book of Abraham rabbit hole you will be sorely disappointed.

[@hispeedbullet2661]

Everyone approaches everything with a personal bias. It is impossible to do otherwise. The best way to move forward is to acknowledge that reality and disclose the biases you bring to an issue and test your conclusions in light of them.

[@SuperDuppydoo]

How can you be biased if you have never been exposed to it or an idea expressed by someone else who has never been exposed either? You have to be exposed to wind… you can see it’s effects and feel the same effects from it, but not until you feel or see the effects can a person be biased about it…

[@hispeedbullet2661]

@@SuperDuppydoo every person evaluates every experience they have through the lens of their prior experiences. Those are our personal biases. They influence how we perceive experiences and how we feel about them. Having biases does not necessarily mean we are biased “against” something; it simply means that we are never able to be completely objective because we cannot divorce ourselves from the prior experiences that affect the way we see and think about things that happen in our lives.

[@paulgregersen3570]

​​@@hispeedbullet2661Unless you can prove in the text itself that a highly important question of fact is being overlooked and ignored by the text itself. Chapter 3 the Lord tells Abraham to teach only a Hebrew understanding of the Egyptians never anything about the Egyptian character's translation. Link utube (BOA ep 16) type in exact title to get there

[@Thehaystack7999]

Kerry is wonderful! I have been studying the Book of Abraham a lot lately and it is just hitting like never before, I even study the facsimiles and I gotta correct some old ideas I have shared in the past but this is amazing!

[@Thehaystack7999]

@@Jozeemoss where is that written, in a parable? Not to worry, this is not fiction anyway.

[@MisterTipp]

I feel like this guests wants every other researcher to do the opposite of what he does. Like “pray on my text, but don’t try to convert me”.

[@therealshugon1353]

Hey guys, I had a question, recently, a user by the name of "NEMO THE MORMON." Recently said that the spirit of discernment didn't work with the prophets and seers because they bought fake documents from a murderer many years ago, I can't remember the story which I will look up but could you clear things up for me?

[@alvelocipastor7720]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/sIHMdJ57erSUY7c Saints Unscripted did a video on it that explains it pretty well. It’s usually referred to as the Hoffman forgeries or the Salamander letter.

[@dylanwilliams2202]

Nemo is incredibly dishonest and will be dishonest a lot in an attempt to discredit the Church. I suggest you avoid his content. A guy named Mark Hoffman was the best forager in the country and foraged many documents some of which were supposed to be from LDS leaders, the most infamous being the "White Salamander Letter". Most of those documents he just gave to the Church and others where bought by other people and then given to the church. Saints Unscripted already did a video on the "White Salamander Letters". A brief explanation, Mark Hoffman had forged a letter from Martin Harris saying that a White Salamander actually appeared to Joseph to tell him where the plates were. He released his findings to the public and a guy bought it and kept it for a year before he donated it to the Church.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

@@alvelocipastor7720 Thanks for the assist!

[@dylanwilliams2202]

@@Jozeemoss And no one has done that.

[@dylanwilliams2202]

@@Jozeemoss you have a point in saying that?

[@Fairfacts]

I've listened to many podcasts and read a few books on the subject of the authenticity of the Book of Abraham. I've come to the conclusion that there are reasonable arguments on both sides. To say that there are not is to deny reality and to allow your bias to overcome your reason. For me, I find Kerry Muhlestein's arguments persuasive. But I admit I'm biased, because I also find the entire doctrine of the LDS faith logical, inspiring, and compatible with the Bible. This, together with the profound evidences for the Book of Mormon compel me to remain faithful to the Church, and to Christ, to the best of my ability. I find great happiness in the Church, and I also find many people who would benefit from its teachings.

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

Google Book of Abraham pt 1 Egyptologists back Smith Paul Gregersen you tube. Paul clearly demonstrates that Joseph Smith was right, the Egyptologists were wrong.

[@camillebunker5429]

AND he is quite literally the kindest, most humble and genuine person. Definitely a hero of mine.

[@markschultz8982]

"Don't start persecuting me" -Kerry Muhlestein This is why he made this video. I understand Kerry. He's in the same position I was in, employees of the church trying to make it to retirement while feeding his family. Of course he's going to choose a "starting place" which assumes the book of abraham is true. After choosing that starting point he works to make his theories fit into that assumption. This is not true scholarship. It is however, true survival within the church employment system. Personally I do not believe anything the church teaches about scripture, doctrine, covenants, or anything written by Joseph Smith. However, mormons are my favorite group of people.

[@mikefoxtrot1314]

If the book of Abraham was pseudepigrapha, how would someone determine that?

[@will2003michael2003]

Why was his translation not perfectly correct? You draw a picture that pieces of the translation are amazingly accurate (in accordance with modern day scholarship), If he could hear from God, then it should be 100% accurate? If he is 90% accurate then we know he is wrong 10% of the time. Does that not reflect badly on all his teaching that they could all be 10% off. From what im reading he is at best 90% wrong on his translation. Does this mean that 90% of all his revelations are false and 10% good. Jesus and the Old Testament prophets were 100% accurate, why would we expect anything less from a modern day prophet?

[@BrendonKing]

The challenge of claiming you speak face to face with God, is you have to be perfect as God is.

[@TP-om8of]

@@BrendonKingJoe Smith’s translations were 110% correct. Maybe even 120%.

[@BrendonKing]

@@TP-om8of see the problem is you look ridiculous when you make comments like this.

[@advocate7643]

He falsely translated book of abraham and kinderhook plates. JS is clearly not a reliable seer

[@mak88119]

@@TP-om8of If Joeseph Smith's were true where is the Temple of Zion in Missouri that was supposed to be built? It is an empty lot and the generation that is was supposed to be built by is long gone, even the LDS admits it was a false prophecy. here is the false prophecy: This prophecy comes directly from Doctrine & Covenants Section 84, the introduction of which states: Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, September 22 and 23, 1832. HC 1:286-295. 1. A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high. 2. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4. Verily, this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house. The Mormons were forced to flee Missouri due to persecution and a temple was never built on the "temple lot" in the lifetime of Joseph Smith or within the generation of his contemporaries.

[@ngatihine6072]

The source is the papyrus. it's false, but it's inspired by Josephs knowledge of the scriptures. He was inspired, but he doesn't have authority from a god.

[@lrsvalentine]

Oh please. Robert Ritner destroyed all this nonsense. Joe got it MOSTLY wrong.

[@richardholmes5676]

Robert Ritner? The arrogant Egyptologists were proven wrong.

[@paulgregersen3570]

@@lrsvalentine No, Robert Ritner has now been exposed as wrong and why on line. Non LDS egyptologists agree with my evidence proving the catalyst theory has the best scholarly evidence. Smith did not translate the Egyptian gods wrong as Ritner claimed. See why non LDS Egyptian scholars are now against Ritner admitting I'm correct publicly. Link utube title...."(book of Abraham scholar critic admits I'm right )" type in exact title to get there now...

[@lrsvalentine]

@@paulgregersen3570 😂😂😂😂 I watched. Sure he's been proven wrong. Canoptic jars and the four sons of Horis. Definitely not by the "hand of Abraham."😂😂😂😂

[@paulgregersen3570]

​@@lrsvalentineIn Abrahams day they would have written on clay tablets. Scribes had a divine duty to preserve original writings. Clay tablets would decay, later scribes rewrote them on animal hydes becoming scrolls. But in a few hundred years worms and natural elements decayed them. Scribes would rewrite them anew, having authority they preserved the original writing as if Abraham or Moses or whoever wrote them themselves. The book of Peter or Paul had written them by their own hand regardless of how many preservations it had received. Today none of the biblical transcripts are the original Greek translations. Anti LDS critics hope you are stupid and uneducated thinking an original authors document could still exist. Written with his own hand simply means it's a preservation of what was originally written by that author's own hand. A million copies of Moby Dick copies exist all claiming to be written by the original author.Anti Mormons hope you are stupid enough to think that everyone of those copies are forgeries because each one was not written by the exact hand of the author. Also, See why Both Ritner and Vogel are reacting to the wrong context of the book of Abraham in just minutes .What Ritner was reacting to in the translation avoids that chapter 3 that's says it was always a Hebrew encrypted translation never an Egyptian translation. Link utube (BOA ep 16)

[@paulgregersen3570]

​​​Yep, ​see why no original transcript could exist that long ago. Recopied copies were always considered by his own hand. Ritner is wrong about the entire translation proved in minutes. Link utube (BOA ep 16) @@lrsvalentine

[@livingtruth2374]

Ah! We see the usual herd of anti-Latter-day Saints showing up on this board, throwing in their negative two-cents on their favorite pet topic (which they think is a slam dunk) against the truthfulness of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: the Book of Abraham. Interesting that they troll and lurk around here on this awesome, effective, faith-promoting channel, looking to clip off the ignorant and uninformed and try to convince those tender in the faith that the Book of Abraham is not true. But all the arguments they present below have already been examined, dissected, chewed up, and spit out as lacking REAL facts, logic, good reasoning, accurate assumptions to begin with, etc. They haven't laid a glove on the Book of Abraham, not historically, culturally, regarding language, translation or anything else. Much less the wonderful doctrine it contains. And for those who know, through the power of the Holy Ghost of its truthfulness, that is a witness that goes way beyond the academics. But when even when we go deep on those academics our testimony that Jesus Christ is the author of this book is not contradicted - be assured of that truth. Bring it on my friends, because you've got nothing.

[@BrendonKing]

The ignorant and uninformed are those who look at the preponderance of evidence straight on and refuse to acknowledge it.

[@advocate7643]

Found the definition of dogma

[@latter-daysaintbatman2679]

The Book of Abraham is true.

[@latter-daysaintbatman2679]

The Book of Abraham is true.

[@advocate7643]

@@latter-daysaintbatman2679the translation isn’t

[@CookieMTV89]

Great Video as always Gentlemen, I am not sure if you guys go over movies? "Sound of Freedom" thoughts?

[@BlazeHawk1315]

Hey this is Jaxon, the guy in the black! I can definitely see if we’d be willing to talk about that great film!

[@CookieMTV89]

@@BlazeHawk1315 This would be great!

[@jamesclark1467]

This is not scholarship.

[@mak88119]

Historically, the authenticity of the Book of Mormon is questioned due to anachronisms such as the mention of animals, plants, and technologies not present in the Americas during the time periods it describes, as well as potential influences from contemporary 19th-century texts like "View of the Hebrews." Additionally, Joseph Smith's credibility as a prophet is scrutinized due to his involvement in treasure hunting and legal issues, along with inconsistencies in his accounts of the First Vision. Theologically, the evolution of LDS doctrines, such as changes in the church's stance on polygamy and the ordination of black members, is seen by some as indicative of human, rather than divine, direction. The Book of Abraham, claimed to be a translation of Egyptian papyri by Smith, has been shown by Egyptologists to be common funerary texts unrelated to Abraham, challenging Smith's translation abilities. Scientifically, DNA evidence does not support the Book of Mormon's claim that Native Americans are descended from ancient Israelites; instead, genetic studies link Native American ancestry to East Asian populations. Furthermore, the lack of archaeological evidence for the major civilizations described in the Book of Mormon casts doubt on its historical validity. Ethical critiques highlight the LDS Church's past racial teachings, which denied priesthood to black members until 1978, and its promotion of gender roles that critics argue perpetuate patriarchal norms. Despite these points, supporters of Mormonism often emphasize faith, spiritual experiences, and the belief in progressive revelation, arguing that perceived inconsistencies or errors are part of human imperfection and do not invalidate their core spiritual convictions.

[@medeekdesign]

I think the Book of Abraham is a great spiritual text however I don’t think it has any connection to these papyrus. Even Hugh Nibley came to this conclusion. All this talking in circles will not change this.

[@inhocsignovinces1081]

Since its printing, the Book of Abraham has been a source of controversy. Numerous non-LDS Egyptologists, beginning in the mid-19th century, have heavily criticized Joseph Smith's translation and explanations of the facsimiles, unanimously concluding that his interpretations are inaccurate.

[@noelhausler2911]

Royal Skousen at BYU thinks the facsimiles should be dropped from the BOA and the content accepted as inspired. See page 39 of his CV.

[@andrewdurfee3896]

You have conflated two different things. 1)The facsimiles and 2) The Book of Abraham. They have criticized the facsimiles and the explanation, but also have agreed upon some explanations. For example the four cardinal directions and the Pharos worship of the alligator God. I read an pamphlet criticizing the facsimiles as well and also threw in criticizing the Book of Abraham without actually doing so.

[@noelhausler2911]

@@andrewdurfee3896 If you look at the sketch of fac 2 you will notice sections missing in the upper right hand corner. Smith inserted a figure taken from another piece of papyri that is not usually there. Do a search in google British museum hypocephalus and you will see in the upper right hand corner a figure standing in a boat with and insect in the examples shown nothing like that Smith inserted.

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

Paul Gregersen clearly demonstrates that Joseph Smith was right.

[@Anonymous_Monkey]

Great interview. I agree with some of the other commentators that it was a little short and too broad. But love the concepts and reminder that everyone has biases and recognizing that it important.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@Anonymous_Monkey]

Agree! 😊

[@lw1959]

Books of scripture are given by revelation. We, then, translate them into various languages. Whether the BoA was translation or revelation is irrelevant. The real question is whether Joseph Smith was a prophet with authority to translate/reveal the BoA. I’ve had enough personal experiences to know that he was and that the BoA is true.

[@Dnell-tb1yd]

Is that the new standard for verification, personal experience?

[@lw1959]

Isn’t personal experience how the original apostles knew that Jesus was the Christ? And then they testified of that truth.

[@Dnell-tb1yd]

@@lw1959 What differentiates your experiences from that of a Jehovah’s Witness or Muslim? Surely they trust and believe the experiences they’ve had too?

[@lw1959]

I’m sure they do, and I would never disparage or discount those experiences just because I’ve had different ones. Agency means you get to make your own decisions based on your own experiences.

[@Dnell-tb1yd]

@@lw1959 I’m not LDS but, I know a bit about the theology, I believe the official position of the church is that only LDS have the “full light”, and the restored priesthood which says to me your church believes itself to be superior or more correct than faiths so, I’m not certain how agency plays into that?

[@allmapepz]

Yes you can improve something without being biased. You can take something without knowing anything about it and then give your opinion on it. But when you start your research trying to defend this book, that is what people are pointing out. That would be the bias

[@matthewcropley2062]

Can you do a video about the Book of Mary magdaline in relation to the Book of Mormon?

[@taylorallred]

"to say there is an objective point of view is naïveté" this statement is false. The word say, "alligator" in english doesn't translate to the word "perro" ("dog") in Spanish. So two points of failure: 1) that we aren't capable of knowing or expressing objective reality (bet he doesn't hold to that view when speaking about knowing his objective God) and 2) a misunderstanding about the objective and practical nature of translating from language X to Y. When podcasters speak so broadly about "subjective" bias and how it clouds there view one must respond and require that you show exactly how one's specific bias is effecting one's specific claims. (This is true for both sides of the argument for or against.) Also in regard to the crocodile they mention go read about "Sobek, the crocodile deity" in ancient Egypt.

[@Compulsive-Elk7103]

The problem is, kerry is still bias no matter what.

[@Konorsaja]

Things that people who don’t beleive in God actually believe: Coincidences 😂😂

[@heberfrank8664]

My bias includes what I was taught growing up as a Mormon and accepted. As an adult I have considered opposing ideas but I have yet to be convinced that the Book of Abraham is not what Joseph claimed it is. I agree with the defenses of the BoA that this video gives. But one belief that I have changed by questioning what I was taught is the doctrine that Jesus was the creation and OT Jehovah. The Book of Abraham, as I read it, clearly says differently. Jesus is the one Jehovah sends, not Jehovah Himself. And not just the BoA, but all the scriptures show that Jesus was the Son of the OT Jehovah. "And the Lord [Jehovah] said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man [Christ]: Here am I, send me. And another [Lucifer] answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first." --Abraham 3:27 So clearly in the Book of Abraham Jesus is not Jehovah, but the one that Jehovah sent. Apparently, people get confused about this because the resurrected Jesus is also a Jehovah like his Father. And speaks by divine investiture as His Father Jehovah.

[@GlenLawlor]

Jehovah is Jesus Christ. Heavenly Father and the council of heaven is the architect of the plan. Jehovah, Jesus, the oldest son of our father, carried out the plan, including creating our earthly home.

[@lrsvalentine]

Yeah. It's weird how Joe Smith can't keep his Jehovah, Elohim, and Jesus straight. It's almost as if he made it up as he went along. Almost...

[@soneedanap]

The nail in the coffin for me that we do not have the material Joseph translated from is facsimile #2. Figures 9-21 were copied from JSP#11. The fact that the characters from JSP#11 were not revealed to him, tells me he did not translate from this. The book of Abraham scroll is missing, likely destroyed.

[@lrsvalentine]

Nah. RFM and Bill Reel show that we do have the source material. But even then, Robert Ritner explains the idiocy of even thinking that the Egyptians were anywhere near where the book claims.

[@soneedanap]

@@lrsvalentine 😂😆😂🤣

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@quemaspana It wasn't Joseph, he was not involved with the creation of the facsimiles. Rather he hired a non-member woodcutter to create them.

[@lrsvalentine]

@@soneedanap Joe Smith. 😂😂😂😂😂

[@quemaspana]

@@brettmajeske3525 Ah, the blame the scribe tactic. You are saying that Ruben Hedlock came up with the explanations? Did Ruben Hedlock also do Facsimile #1 with explanations? Did you know Joseph Smith was the editor? That it would be Ruben Hedlock just doesn't make any sense at all.

[@brettseegmiller]

Big fan of the show guys, but please...please update the set with chairs where you're facing each other instead of the awkward table setup

[@ElmaleRahamim]

I dont understand why mormons says, it was the holly spirit that warm their haerth as a confirmation that the book of mormon is true. how can a man that was marry that was married to more than 40 women can be a profect of Jesus Christ?. how can a man that clain he will be also in the trone toguether with the Father and Lord Jesus Christ as a Judge, be inspired by the Holly spirit. to write a book?. mormon why are you so blind.?. please answer me.

[@richardallen383]

From about 400 AD to 1500 AD, the scientific community’s model of the universe was geocentrism. Geocetrism was intellectually the best knowledge at the time but it was wrong. Then in 1500 Copernicus put forth a new model called Heliocentrism. That intellectually derived model was the model in place at the time Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham. That model gave way to galactocentrism in the early 1900s. Only a couple of decades later that intellectually derived wrong model gave way to the Big Bang Theory. Now the Big Band model is giving way to the multi-universe concept known as the multiverse. When you read the Book of Abraham you cant rule out it is describing a multiverse. The Book of Abraham also describes the time period of rotation of heavenly bodies. Science didn’t describe this phenomena until they figured out redshift in 1934. Assume Joseph Smith just invented the Book of Abraham from his own imagination. What he invented holds up scientifically today and was more than a century ahead of known science of his time. He was either very lucky or it wasn’t his imagination. The scientific knowledge available in the Book of Abraham which was once intellectually silliness, has continued to grow more intellectually strong. However, unless you believe Joseph Smith is a prophet you will ignore its intellectual strength. Intellectual knowledge always fails in the spiritual realm.

[@ClintThomsen]

I appreciate these videos, but I don’t understand why they’re so short. You go to the trouble of getting these guests in studio. Why not do something longer form?

[@RyanMercer]

Because the vast majority of people don't want to even watch a 10 minute video, let alone a 30 or 60 minute video. That's just the nature of KZbin. Videos like this provide a cursory overview of a topic which provides a starting point for viewers to explore the topic more on their own.

[@ClintThomsen]

@@RyanMercer interesting. I listen almost exclusively to longform podcasts/vids. In fact the short lengths here are the main reason this channel isn’t in my regular rotation.

[@RyanMercer]

@@ClintThomsen I prefer 30-60ish myself but YT has a LOT of short attention span users.

[@harryhenderson2479]

Because they have no legs to stand on. Kerry’s speculations are laughable…and he knows it.

[@michaelmichaelc1748]

Oh to me it seems the same old story : critics of our faith trying to disprove our faith . They tried with the Book of Mormon for many years and haven't gotten too far with that so let's try another way to create doubt and destroy their faith . Sure we can use our reason and intelligence to gain knowledge and truth but there is always going to be required the exercise of faith and trust in God. I say the proof of the pudding is in the eating by prayerful study of the Book. There are some precious scripture stories and doctrines there that other scripture doesn't have. That's why the Lord , through Abraham, and now Joseph in our day, gave the Book to us. In my personal experience there is a lovely spirit with the Book that l know is of the Lord. ❤️🙏😊

[@quemaspana]

I can tell you that if you pray about literally ANYTHING with a sincere heart, real intent, belief in , that you will eventually get the answer you are looking for. Someone once explained that faith is believing in something more than you should otherwise believe based on evidence. Critics have effectively disproven the Book of Mormon as a historical document based on historical, linguistic, dna, etc records. The evidence against the Book of Mormon grows stronger every year as more evidence is uncovered.

[@michaelmichaelc1748]

@@quemaspana That’s not my experience at all. The Lord has shown me many times by the blessing of the Holy Ghost that it is true and it is his work. I feel much closer to the Saviour and Our Heavenly Father. There is a beautiful spiritual peace that comes when reading it prayerfully. I feel it now as l am sharing this with you. I have had suchlike precious moments when reading the bible which we are studying this year in Sunday school.

[@quemaspana]

@@michaelmichaelc1748 I have talked with many people who have had similar feelings of peace while doing drugs, or praying to Allah. Explain how your feeling is different from theirs.

[@quemaspana]

@@howardedward5339 There is also historical prophetic and anthropological evidence for the truthfulness of the Koran. Muslim hell might be worse. Should you join the religion that has the worst hell?

[@quemaspana]

@@howardedward5339 Ok, try telling what you wrote to a practicing Jew. They would clearly have exception to what you wrote. I HIGHLY recommend the book "Authoring the Old Testament" by former Fair apologist David Bokovoy. The Bible is not what you think it is. The sacred texts of Buhdism and HInduism are both older and cover longer periods of time than the Bible. Not that it is in any way relevant to it being true or not.

[@MichaelSmith-fq3pg]

5:52 - I'll stop trying to convince members that it's a fraud when the institution stops trying to convince everyone else that it's not a fantasy; that includes the missionary program. Until then though, it's open season.

[@vendingdudes]

You've completely missed the point he was making then

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

I asked some Egyptologists about Kerry. They think he's out to lunch as far as the BA is concerned.

[@KentPitcher-ns2pv]

Please note my post.

[@livingtruth2374]

@@BunnyWatson-k1w No, THEY (those Egyptologists of whom you speak) have been out at breakfast actually, and haven't come back for the day. Dr. Muhlestein is a fine Egyptologist, but their problem with him has nothing to do with Egyptology, it's a religious bias, they don't believe the Book of Abraham is inspired. Not because of their Egyptology training, but because they don't have the faith to find out the truthfulness of the scripture.

[@Mustardmanor]

​@@livingtruth2374do you really believe that trained historians and egyptologists are all conspiring against the church? It doesn't make sense. The church is an extremely small population of the world. Members of the LDS church seem to cling to any kind of hope that the book of Abraham is a true book. It is clearly not a translation even when Joseph smith said it was one. If it is not a translation, it is inspiration according to members. You can still believe in it... But you need to understand that every translator agrees it is not a true translation. Joseph smith published a translation guide with the characters and their meaning. From what I gather, there are only a small select portion which have any vague similarities in meaning. But, you can believe as you like.

[@paulgregersen3570]

I believe we need to denounce the Egyptian hyroglyphics in the facsimiles as idolatry exactly as chapter one describes it as idolatry. JOSEPH DID NOT NAME THE GOD OF PHAROAH. JOSEPH CALLED HIM THE GOD "OF" PHAROAH. The same is true with the other 4 Gods of Horus. Each of them are described as the (GODS OF), not the Gods themselves. The God "OF" Abraham is not Abraham himself! So critics must stop assuming that Joseph gave these God's the wrong names. He never named any of them for Pete's sake! let me make some assumptions that use far more of the textual evidence that others are completely ignoring. Link utube ( BOA ep 16) and see far more details being ignored by most.

[@richardholmes5676]

Eh there Paul.

[@paulgregersen3570]

@richardholmes5676 Keep the faith brother.

[@lrsvalentine]

Complete nonsense. Joe got everything wrong. I love watching all the mental gymnastics the LDS apologists have to do to keep faith in Joe the conman. No wonder they were easy pickings for Trump.

[@paulgregersen3570]

@Jozeemoss Then why did God define the future of the world in Daniel's pagan kingdoms by a timeline using pagan Idalatry starting with the pagan king of Babylon in 600 BC? "Daniel 2." From this IDOL of Golden head, breast and arms of silver, legs Iron tracks time itself to the kingdom of God." Daniel 2" Paul used pagan God's to re-teach the people of Athons the true gospel.

[@paulgregersen3570]

@@Jozeemoss KZbin( BOA ep 16)

[@nathanaeljensen7693]

Abraham was born around 1640 B.C. And the Rosetta Stone dates back to 196 B.C. So using the Rosetta Stone to disprove the book of Abraham isn’t good because languages change so often and rapidly through just 100 years

[@paulgregersen3570]

Cataliat theory by the apostles has most evidence. MON LDS Egyptologists agree with me on line, come see why my evidence fits with the 1st presidency far beyond BYU theories Link utube title "(Book of Abraham scholar critics admit I'm right)" type in exact title to get there.