Is the Book of Abraham authentic?? | with Stephen Smoot

[@clarasuccess]

I was bias about The Book of Mormon when I was 14. I directed my brother to talk to the full time missionaries. He joined the LDS church. Not until 29 years old, I pour our my soul and kneel down to pray about The Book of Mormon, since then I received joyful answer from God. After I get baptized and become a Mormon, I received 3 visions in my life for good and I have many personal revelations from God after I go to The LDS/Mormon Temple. I grew up as Catholic and then became Christian from The Methodist Church and The First Baptized church, I prayed so hard in these churches for answer from God, but I heard and felt no answer. I testify The Mormon/Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints it the True church and The Book of Mormon is the true word of God.

[@latter-daysaintbatman2679]

I share your testimony. I had doubts too and then God and Jesus answered back. The church is true and remains true.

[@karliesukowaty]

If you received visions I would strongly suggest you see a mental health provider. You aren’t a prophet and that’s not how god works.

[@mmaspidermonkey]

Galatians 1:7-9 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 Read these then the testimony of the prophet of Joseph Smith. If your eyes aren't opened after that. It's because you don't want to open them.

[@danielwalker2381]

⁠@@karliesukowaty Acts 2:17 has your answer

[@3thingsfishing427]

You feel the exact thing the church told you to feel. Imagine that.

[@brandonl2555]

God bless you Elizabeth! I went through a similar return experience when I was disfellowshipped. Part of my coming back was participating in the addiction recovery program. We called it ARP for short and the missionary who ran our group always called it the Atonement Realization Program and firmly believed there should be a manual in every home in the church.

[@daveduncan2748]

What's really cool is if you read the literal translations of the existing papyrus (found in the book, The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri, by Hugh Nibley), The Book of Breathings, it's a corrupted version of the temple ceremony. And we know from the Book of Abraham (which I think came from the lost papyrus) that Abraham spent a lot of time with Pharoah and that Pharoah wanted the priesthood. Since Abraham was forbidden to give it too him, Pharoah imitated the priesthood--and apparently, the temple ceremony, too. The Book of Breathings tells of God the Father (Ra) and his Son, the Creator and Resurrector (Osiris), (with the assistance of the first man, Atum) creating a beautiful garden, and there placing Atum. Among other things, Atum encounters a deceitful lizard, and with a flaming sword, he cuts off the arms and legs of the lizard, making it into a serpent. Any of that sound familiar (even if corrupted) to you temple saints out there? Some of the translations of parts of the hypocephalus (facsimile #2)that Joseph said would be revealed later in the temple are also interesting. Given that mumification and the rituals around death were about achieving eternal life, it makes one wonder. In fact, until I started learning more about the ancient Egyptian gods/religion, I never realized how much it maps to the Gospel. I kind of feel for Pharoah. He loved Abraham. He loved his religion. Yet he was denied the priesthood. Perhaps in his mind, he did the next best thing--he copied it. Probably not the right thing to do, but certainly understandable.

[@beefmaster4]

I never thought about the mumification like that, interesting thought

[@daveduncan2748]

@@Jozeemoss Agreed. But how is that relevant?

[@daveduncan2748]

@@Jozeemoss Great scripture quote. I agree with it. But what I was wondering was how is your prior comment about blasphemy relevant to this thread?

[@randyjordan5521]

Cool story bro. Do any non-Mormon Egyptologists agree with your narrative here?

[@paulgregersen3570]

I think it's interesting, but understanding Egyptian is not what the text of the book of Abraham describes in its own context. This is about a biblical gospel understanding only. Let me show you all the evidence being ignored that supports Joseph Smiths reason for adding the facsimiles having to do with Israel's birthright. Utube (BOA ep 16)

[@timothyblack1098]

I've never said the book of Abraham has no evidence, however I don't believe there to be enough reasonable evidence for it even after watching this conversation.

[@LatterDayData]

I like how he says, “I hope people will give me the courtesy … not to just knee-jerk reject us…” That’s so important. Dialogue and communication and open-mindedness and giving others a chance to respond to objections is far superior to taking a “case is closed” approach against someone’s argument.

[@TacticusPrime]

... it's the most open and shut case of textual fraud that exists. The only more clearly made up texts are things like Scientology's sci-fi nonsense.

[@3thingsfishing427]

It's not a complicated issue. JS massacred the "translation". He didn't have a clue what he was doing.

[@friendsinthefold]

I think it's helpful to read the definition of "translate" in Webster's 1828 dictionary to understand what Joseph would have been thinking when HE used the word. The primary meaning, or the first meaning listed, is"to convey" an idea. He was bringing us knowledge from a source, making it available to us. It is not until the fifth or sixth definition that the idea of language exchange is discussed. That is only how we use the word in our century. So the word translate offers a broader scope of meaning in what Joseph would have expressed

[@AlecSorensen]

Thanks for sharing. That was fascinating. I had to look it up myself... and yep. The first example in the first definition is moving a bishop from one position to another... so it meant convey in a very literal, physical sense... also in the sense of ideas... and only lastly in the sense of conveying the meaning of a text from one language to another.

[@AlecSorensen]

@@joeoleary9010 Transliteration is different than translation, and almost certainly not what Joseph Smith was doing. Transliteration is transcribing the sounds of another character into those same sounds in your language. A common example today is Japanese in an English alphabet: "shiro neko" is not translated, it's transliterated. And the claims that Joseph Smith didn't translate because he wasn't a scholar in the language really miss the mark. He claimed to be a prophet and incorporated divinatory objects in his method. If you don't believe in prophets, fine. If you don't believe that JS in particular was one, also fine. But attacking him for something he never claimed to be (a scholar translating in the usual fashion) is just a straw man. It's like if someone claimed to be able to teleport, and you said "No you can't, because you didn't walk through this particular point in the middle." And if there is evidence for or against his prophetic claim, it doesn't lie in his scholarship. The evidence would be in the insight generated by what he claimed was a prophetic process, both a spiritual level (unfalsifiable or generalizable, up to the individual) and on a physical level (are there actual accurate historic insights that weren't known at the time, etc).

[@friendsinthefold]

@@gordianknot9595 does it matter? I don't know your answer, but to me, it is, important because we (modern people) are making assumptions based on our usage.

[@friendsinthefold]

@@gordianknot9595 I think Joseph tried to transcribe languages and made many efforts to learn several ancient languages, because he was an avid learner. But it's clear that he conveyed the Book of Mormon into language in far too short of a period to be depending on any degree of personal understanding. He translated it by the gift and power of God, however God ordained.

[@randyjordan5521]

So, what method or process did Joseph Smith use to come up with the English text of the BOA? In 2003, the pre-eminent Egyptologist in the USA, Robert Ritner, wrote a paper re: the BOA titled "The Breathing Permit Of Hor." Here's a sample of what he said about Joseph Smith's interpretations: "Smith misunderstood 'Pharaoh' as a personal name (cf. Abraham 1:25), and the name above fig. 2 is unquestionably that of the female Isis. Osiris (fig. 1) is certainly not 'Abraham,' nor is it possible that the altar of Osiris (fig.3) 'signifies Abraham.' Maat (fig. 4) is not a male 'prince,' Hor (fig. 5) is not a 'waiter,' nor is Anubis (fig. 6) a 'slave' (because of his dark skin). Such interpretations are uninspired fantasies and are defended only with the forfeiture of scholarly judgement and credibility."

[@DannyAGray]

What fascinates me the most is that until the end of this video, I didn't realize how excited I was to dive into the Book of Abraham, but now I can't wait to get a copy of their findings!

[@DannyAGray]

@@Jozeemoss I'm not sure what you're referring to. Would you care to clarify?

[@MrTikalvideo]

When i served as a missionary, an investigator who read the the Book of Abraham asked: "WHY THIS BOOK SHOWS THE SAME EXPRESION OF THE BOOK OF MORMON? TWO CIVILITATIONS FAR AWAY APART TIME AND GEOGRAPHY? "AND IT CAME TO PASS" and again and again the same sentence. AND IT CAME TO PASS....

[@spr00sem00se]

Firstly, i do not defend the book as a translation, however, as someone who speaks two languages fluently, translating between the two does dpend on my way of intepreting things, there are frequently phrases which can mean several things in the second language, and I tend to favour one or the other over the rest. So if JS liked the phrase "and it came to pass" there is a chance that something that could have read "it happened last year" could be interpreted differently. However this is not a defense of the book

[@nathanschaupp9709]

It was Nephi that abused that phrase. 😂 You don't see it in the other books. I suppose it's possible that Abraham liked it as well.

[@Normankennedy-j3q]

@@nathanschaupp9709 I suppose it's possible that Abraham had nothing to do whatsoever with this fairy tale.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Great episode! I really like Stephen Smoot, hes an intelligent fellow, we had a great interview on the book of Mormon, evidences and responding to criticisms.

[@paulinebenjamin613]

I have it, I read it, it's fire.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

🔥

[@paulinebenjamin613]

@@Jozeemoss Have you read the Book of Abraham?

[@paulinebenjamin613]

@@Jozeemoss yeah, I agree with this passage. If an actual prophet says something that doesn't come to pass, don't fear that prophet because he spoke presumptuously.

[@franklebatista1091]

First of all; we and you have to understand first what a vident, revelator, anointed by the Lord is. That's the first empowered condition that the Lord Himself has bestowed on these a few man. Joseph was that type a vident and revelator. Joseph Smith could've been talking to a group of people or a couple or in a room, etc, and suddenly, he could start seeing a vision. That happened with prophesy of the white horse about the constitution pending on a thin tread on the last days. He was looking at a picture of a white horse (that's from where the prophesy got this name) so he could been seen any language characters and at the same time seen the revelation simultaneously so he actually was writing or translating directly from the heavens opened.

[@stephengnb]

Fire, as in... Liar, liar, pants on 🔥, sort of thing? 🤔

[@10penn83]

Regardless of personal biases one way or the other, what did Joseph Smith say it was that he was "translating?" "Written by his own hand upon papyrus..."

[@kenetic5143]

That was a good infomercial but didn't really make me say "I have to read this book."

[@mascotbenches5146]

It's really short. Why not read it?

[@Jman81az]

Super hilarious pretty much you’re saying I believe it’s true because I believe it’s true no evidence but I believe it’s true

[@IsraeliteJewels]

I believe the Book of Abraham is legitimate after reading it. It goes with other text I have. Abraham was in Egypt for 10 years as a high priest for Egypt after the order of Melchizedek.

[@mbflip21]

Weird how it also matches text that JS had too. For some reason it doesn't match the papyrus he claimed to translate it from. Ol' Joe should've stuck with the golden plate excuse of fake angel taking them back.

[@whatsup3270]

@@mbflip21 The gold plates were never translated....

[@richardholmes5676]

You're right. As this supposed mistranslation from Smith has been entirely based on improper interpretation on translation. The arrogant Egyptologist assessments are all based on false assumptions, that is. One by the name of Paul Gregersen covers this on his pro-Book of Abraham videos. Joseph Smith was right, the Egyptologists were wrong.

[@IsraeliteJewels]

@Matt_Butler A papyrus is hard to create since the plant to make them have gone extinct way before JS was even born. It was the Smithsonian that deemed it fake since the Smithsonian has a history of hiding artifacts from the people. So, who to believe? You have to verify everything yourself.

[@mbflip21]

@@whatsup3270 never said they were 👍

[@Dani101Ventura]

A lot of rhetoric and little evidence given. I wanted to hear the questions answered, not repeated and left unanswered. More like a advertisement for the book. Very disappointed in this episode.

[@AgrippaTheMighty]

Just check the 4 jars under the "sacrificial bed". They are the 4 sons of Horus and not the gods mentioned in the book. *I was referring to facsimili 1.

[@roberthawthorne8396]

See my posted comment.

[@brennantsullivan]

Bruh u too lazy to read the book or?? I’m sure the evidence for what he states is contained in the book. You can’t summarized a whole book that quickly

[@roberthawthorne8396]

@@brennantsullivan I read it awhile back. Only found the petroglyphs six years ago. I don't know what you are talking about being lazy. I actually went out and explored to see evidence for myself of the book's accuracy. You sit and watch KZbin for "accuracy". That's lazy last time I checked.

[@bradensorensen966]

No evidence. The OPPOSITE of evidence even.

[@TimDavie5]

I enjoyed this conversation and the acknowledgment that there are still some questions. Reminded me of this statement. Elder Maxwell: “All of the Scriptures including the Book of Mormon will remain in the realm of faith. Science will not be able to prove or disprove holy writ. However, enough plausible evidence will come forth to prevent scoffers from having a field day, but not enough to remove the requirement of faith. Believers must be patient during such unfolding.”

[@AlecSorensen]

I had an epiphany that if a glowing man floated down from heaven without any vehicle, looked exactly like the Cristus, nail wounds and all, said he was Jesus, and began raising the dead in public, many atheists would just shrug and go "He's just an advanced alien or something. Not divine." And also governments and corporations would be lining up to shut him up or at least obscure the facts. That's when I realized that 1) You can never prove divinity, which is the most critical part of religion and 2) There will never be a general consensus on the truth of spiritual matters because people in power spend much more time trying to project "their truth" rather than seeking "the truth."

[@TimDavie5]

@@Jozeemoss I agree!

[@Sayheybrother8]

15:19 but he said he was translating the symbols on the papyrus. So now the word TRANSLATE has to be manipulated to make it square with your presumptions?

[@McDan2425]

Look at the 1828 dictionary definition of translate. You’re looking through you’re modern day lenses trying to criticize early 19th century people. Unfortunately a all too common mistake.

[@Sayheybrother8]

@@McDan2425 are you being serious or pretending to be a disingenuous apologist? Because I was taught for 30+ yrs by manuals, prophets, leaders and books that Joseph translated the characters on the plates I’m the one who isn’t looking at this correctly? Think about what you’re saying and understand you might be looking at things like many often do, confirmation bias. Any idea or perspective that makes your conclusion right in your mind you’ll use to justify your perspective. What will you do when this common narrative or explanation changes? You’ll change your opinion because that’s what you have to do.

[@McDan2425]

@@Sayheybrother8 I don’t know how they were translated any more than you or anyone else. I’m just saying there are more interpretations than your assumption. To assume that translation meant exactly what happened or Jospeh’s definition of translated meets your specific definition is presumptuous at the least. My mind is open to a myriad of ideas seeing as I wasn’t there, I didn’t do it, and I don’t know for sure. I guess that’s the difference between you and I. You seem to have made a conclusion, I freely admit I don’t know.

[@Sayheybrother8]

@@McDan2425 then those who are in control of the official narrative shouldn’t have presented the translation the way they did for 150 years. I know they weren’t expecting the internet to happen, another issue, but it did and now we know what those who were close to him said about it. When you say you speak for God you can’t be vague or obfuscate truths you’re not comfortable with because God does not lie.

[@McDan2425]

@@Sayheybrother8 please show me examples of what you refer to. I look and see over and over and over “translated by the power of God” I don’t know exactly what that means and to my knowledge am unable to find “official” church teachings past or present, that explain exactly what that means. HOWEVER, if the end result is true, who cares about the process? The scriptures teach over and over that our faith will prove us. If someone isn’t willing to have faith and hope then following ANY religion doesn’t make sense. To me, living a life with joy and happiness based on faith and hope as opposed to the cynical, judgmental, tribalistic, nihilistic, “show me” wold we live in today….. makes faith and hope super appealing to me. So, to that, I believe in the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham and I believe that Joseph Smith translated those by the power of God (whatever that means). Dude…. if you are getting and believing in info from the internet I guess that Big foot exists, the earth is flat and aliens walk among us too?

[@scottvance74]

How does all of this fit with the academic consensus on the figure of Abraham - i.e. per wikipedia "By the beginning of the 21st century, archaeologists had given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible historical figures". In other words, how can this be considered "authentic" if the author never existed?

[@mateoarteaga8274]

Abraham Issac and Jacob existed read the old testament

[@scottvance74]

@@mateoarteaga8274 I've read the old testiment, and the new. Abraham pops up just a few chapters after the waters came up from the deep and out of the sky and covered the entire surface of the earth. Not too many chapters after God created the world in 7 days. Which parts are literal and why parts are symbolic/leagend/myth, or do you assume that it is all literal?

[@roberthawthorne8396]

If one compares the "Governing Ones", to the drawing Joseph Smith gave to Philo Dibble, one can match that drawing to several petroglyphs found here in Utah that obviously Joseph never had access to. In fact, a near perfect comparison of a glyph to the drawing can be found in Three Fingers Canyon (near Green River, UT) at the entrance. I wonder who revealed this information to Joseph if it wasn't the Lord Himself?

[@douglasrowley2641]

I would be interested in what Brother Smoot thinks of Hugh Nibley's, "The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri"? Nibley's position seems to be that Joseph saw in the facsimiles more than simple funerary texts, despite the Egyptologists' refusal to see anything extraordinary. But, like many things in Joseph Smith's short, amazing, career, I think he was led, by examining the papyri, to inquire of the Lord concerning Abraham, and had what we have revealed to him. So, I doubt that the Book of Abraham is a direct translation of the material he had before him. And, it was more than some novel proof of the prophets calling as a seer. The light shed on the pre-existence, creation and plan of salvation, is a profound and vital piece that fits the puzzle of existence beautifully. I think Joseph went through a similar process when he joined the Masons and must have inquired of the Lord concerning their ceremony. As a result, our temple ceremony was revealed to him. I believe the publication of the Book of Abraham and the introduction of the temple ceremony occurred around the same time, and both are crowning doctrinal aspects of the restoration.

[@tckempton523]

Except for the part where Joseph really screwed up and said that Abraham had personally written this on the papyrus with his own hand. That is where the problem starts and it just gets way worse the further he went with the attempted deception. He got caught almost immediately, the church was able to minimize the scandal and it just lay dormant for a hundred years or so until further light and knowledge revealed it for what it is. A hoax by a con man to be able to enrich him and his family and then to get a whole lotta women and power. Were it not for Josephs dictionary he could have maybe gotten away with it but, now there is no defense of the BOA other than just blind acceptance in spite of proof it was all a lie. That is not faith that is misplaced trust. Faith comes from things we cannot know. We know this was all a lie.

[@tckempton523]

Then why did Joseph Smith say that Abraham wrote that in his own hand? If it was just a conduit and not written by Abraham the whole thing falls apart immediately. When you look at the dictionary that Joseph was writing you can easily see that it is all just a fabrication to fit what Joseph Smith wrote. It only works if you are willing to ignore everything and just blindly accept the current stance of the church. Be prepared for that stance to change as it has done so repeatedly. The church has known that this is an issue almost since it was published. They had to stick with it in order to justify the priesthood ban.

[@brooklyna8943]

So he never ended up talking about what he found in his studies gives evidence to the Book of Abraham…he just told us how the church got the existing papyri and he told us how the book of Abraham make him feel and how interesting the literature from it is. Guess one has to read his book

[@McDan2425]

Listen to the first 10 seconds of the video. He states very clearly that his book is not out to “prove” anything. Your statement suggests you are upset he didn’t give you proof.

[@AlecSorensen]

At least there are extensive free resources they linked to, so one does not have to buy the book.

[@richardholmes5676]

Take note to the mention of Joseph Smith's translation not needing to align with the one from that of the Egyptologists in order to be true. Paul Gregersen debunked the Egyptologists by presenting this proper interpretation. Paul is the first to present this proper interpretation.

[@AgrippaTheMighty]

Facsimili 1, look under the "sacrificial bed" there are 4 jars containing organs of the deseased and representing the 4 sons of Horus. It's a funerary text.

[@franklinanderson9687]

The facsimiles alone tell us that Joseph Smith could not read or translate the Egyptian language even though he told everyone that he was. All the scrolls in Egypt would not have helped Joseph translate the book. That leaves us with only 3 options; Joseph Smith lied to us, or God lied to Joseph making him believe he was translating, or both God and Joseph were lying to us. It really is that cut and dry.

[@mikefoxtrot1314]

Hello. As both a scholar and church member, which evidence do you find more convincing: empirical or spiritual? Or are they equals?

[@loudogg73]

To me, nothing replaces a spiritual witness and that's what actually changes your life. The scholarly evidence often provides depth and works well as a reinforcement of a spiritual confirmation.

[@mikefoxtrot1314]

@@loudogg73 I didn’t mean to imply that one would replace the other. I’m interested in methods for determining truth and eschewing falsehoods. Mr. Smoot, a scholar and LDS believer, relies on both empirical and spiritual data when weighing the truth or falsity of the book of Abraham. I’m curious if empirical or spiritual evidence carries more epistemological weight for Mormon scholars.

[@oatmealmonkey9130]

They're different ways of getting knowledge that work best on different things. We ourselves and our current circumstances are some of the biggest variables in experiments with God, so we can't replicate all the variables whenever we want to repeat the experiment exactly. Empirical evidence works great for things that are the same no matter who is examining them. Spiritual evidence works great for our communication with God. In my experience of watching scholars on KZbin, they know the truth of what they study by spiritual means, and then study and publish the empirical aspects that they find interesting.

[@mikefoxtrot1314]

@@oatmealmonkey9130 In the case of translating historical texts, would spiritual or empirical evidence be preferable?

[@drewsclues5394]

I've been wanting to read the Book of Abraham lately. Maybe this is a sign.

[@blenderesque708]

Go read it. It is a very interesting scripture. It contains precious truths.

[@loudogg73]

Maybe my favorite book of scripture. I need to read it more often too.

[@logannance10]

It gets the closest to the temple, also facsimiles.

[@jameskylelacy1]

I would not read anything written by Joseph Smith. He was a scam artist. All the "evidence" is forced. When someone says the bible is fallible when thousands of ancient copies confirm themselves, everything else they say is a lie. You are supposed to doubt your doubts? This is closed mindeness. Do your own research

[@loudogg73]

@@Jozeemoss It's important to realize what the gospel is before you dismiss it. The gospel is the good news of Christ. It is what we know about eternal life. In fact, there may be no other book which more clearly teaches the good news than the book of Abraham.

[@RyanMercer]

Heyo it's Stephen! Long time.

[@45s262]

He said methought 😂 That's awesome!

[@I_Love_Learning]

Hey! I think you forgot to add that link to the shownotes.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Links have now been added!

[@ambroserose762]

Its interesting that you guys are talking about this topic, as I just watched a video called The Lost Book Of Abraham about this very subject that was a deep investgative dive into this subject put out by The Institute for Religious studies. I have not seen anything that dealt with it so well and so thoroughly before. It might be a helpful resource, if you can find it. It cleared up alot of questions I have had about it.

[@richardholmes5676]

Google Book of Abraham pt 14 Paul Gregersen you tube. Paul demonstrates that Joseph Smith was right, the arrogant Egyptologists were wrong.

[@christianbarrett4256]

“Everyone has a bias.” True, but history and translation isn’t. Thus, rejecting the Book of Abraham isn’t a result of bias, but historical data and accepting it is a result of unfounded bias. LDS are doubling down on some wild ahistorical things.

[@Cyber_Cowboy]

Joseph Smith said it was written by the hand of Abraham conversation over

[@dennygreen322]

It’s interesting that everybody has an opinion as to how a prophet should or would “translate” or bring fourth a revelation. There is only one person that knows how God works through a seer and that is a seer, and maybe a seer doesn’t completely understand it either but accepts his role and trusts in God. unfortunately that Seer was murdered and left us wondering. Analyzing the text to see if it has antiquity seems much more productive and less disingenuous than projecting assumptions and biases towards a process that only God and his seer were privy to.

[@Sayheybrother8]

But there’s no reason to believe it was translated any other way that what Joseph Smith himself said. He said what he was looking at was literally written by the hand of Abraham. He said this as a prophet of God. The man who speaks to us for God the creator of the universe. He said he was translating the symbols on the papyrus that were written by Abraham and that is called translating. IT’s translation in every sense of the word. If interpreting is what he did than 150+ years of saying it was translating was lying. And now we are saying Joseph doesn’t necessarily speak do God but he says what he believes what God says but gets it wrong sometimes. There’s a huge difference and as Stephen said very clearly in this video there are things he can’t explain because the claims are not true and he can’t reconcile how a document not written by Abraham has a story Joseph interpreted as the words of Abraham.

[@dennygreen322]

@@Sayheybrother8 Joseph didn’t even have to open the Gold plates to translate the Book of Mormon, he just had to have it sitting next to him. There is a lot we don’t know about how a seer translates through the “gift and power of God.” The antiquity of the text is persuasive enough for an honest reader, who doesn’t have an axe to grind against the church, to make a reasonable decision to take it seriously and ultimately take Moroni’s invitation to pray about it.

[@Sayheybrother8]

@@dennygreen322 I believe the words of the Book of Mormon. I don’t believe it or the book of Abraham were translated in the sense I was taught as a young member 35 years ago in Sunday school, seminary and how I taught on my mission. And it’s not my fault or lack of education.. I was taught to trust what I was being taught by leaders and prophets I’m the manuals and seminary. The truth was obfuscated and that is an ugly look. My faith is still affected by this dishonesty and if you haven’t had this experience you won’t understand and that’s okay. Just being honest and helping others try to understand why it’s an issue for sone and to respect the experience of others.

[@sethdoddridge7806]

​@@dennygreen322So, people went through all that effort to preserve the Golden Plates just so Joseph Smith wouldn't even need them to translate?

[@dennygreen322]

@@sethdoddridge7806 I’m not sure why you even think that’s a good argument. You have just made a bunch of presuppositions based on your own biases. Read the Book and evaluate it based on what it claims it is, and see if it has antiquity. It overwhelmingly does have antiquity and should be taken seriously. Don’t act like you know how God would work through a seer and then fill in the gaps with your own assumptions and biases. If I were stranded in a dessert and saw an Oasis and then decided not to walk over there and confirm that it is an oasis just because there is a chance it could be a mirage I would be foolish. I have found the LDS church and it’s claims to be very much an Oasis.

[@archangel_one]

If you all believe the Book of Abraham is true -- then you could use Joseph Smith's translation notes to retranslate the Egyptian Book of the Dead to write other books of the Patriarchs. Maybe write the book of Gad or Enosh or Jared or Mahalalel. Wait a minute, the book of Jared might get too confused with the other Jared so maybe Peleg or Joktan?

[@stephenwagner2688]

If Joseph was a true prophet of God and this was God speaking through him to produce the Book of Abraham, wouldn’t it be a perfect translation? Did God not create the language of the Egyptians? Does he not know all languages? Or did he lie to Joseph? Or was Joseph just really bad at hearing God? According to this story, either Joseph is a liar and a false prophet or God is, which is it?

[@samjossie3815]

Certain unexplainable "translations" remind me of Moses who wrote the first five books in the Bible. He's writing about events that happened hundreds and thousands of years earlier. The only way he could have the information in Genesis (apart from oral tradition) is through God dictating to his mind what to write.

[@MrRickb75645]

I love how you guys look at these things logically as well as spiritually. I wish more would do this. I love it. And I pray our father in heaven protects you and continues to support you in this . For I feel not is this reaching those that need to hear this that want to know the truth. But helps those of us who have been searching for answers for those who have asked these very questions. I've found many that you brothers have confronted . But wow , have you guys delved quite deeper. Thank you so much. 😊

[@Cyber_Cowboy]

Joseph Smith said that papyrus were written by the hand of Abraham. Which everyone believed until evidence came out The evidence proves Joseph Smith was lying now the current prophets are contradicting Joseph Smith they're saying oh it wasn't written by Abraham but let's back up remember when I said Joseph Smith said it was written by the hand of Abraham that's not gray that's black and white so you can thank me for thinking logically

[@wadeenglund5095]

Very informative. I was pleasantly surprised to see Jaxon co-hosting. I wasn't aware he was involved with this great channel. I will have to watch more episodes. Nicely done, everyone.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

So glad you enjoyed it!

[@BlazeHawk1315]

Love you Brother Englund!!!

[@peterblair4448]

I love Stephen's work. I have a digital and just ordered a print copy. Thanks for putting this together.

[@Ben-l2i8b]

The most recent content about josephs smiths translations is going from yes he did literally translate the text to well it was more of a revelation thing and didn't really use those texts, but they were there. Its very confusing. My question for the producers is what if the original scroll was found and it was just like the pieces we do have, funeral texts. Then what? Then we just say it was all revelatory and the papyrus was just inspiration? It's a lot of dancing around. Thank you again for your content. Its a lot better than a lot of resources out there. A lot better.

[@tckempton523]

In my opinion here is the way to look at the book of Abraham. Ignore all the facts and truths about the book and just focus on whether or not you can feel good about it. It is the same with the book of Mormon. If you are able ignore all of the issues with it and just focus on how it makes you feel. When I was growing up in the 70's a very popular saying was "If it feels good do it" This is what the LDS church needs to switch to in its advertising and missionary efforts. Ignore the facts and just focus on your feelings and if you feel good about it that is all that matters. Prophets and general authorities past and present have told some real whoppers from the pulpit and in print but they only lie to us to make us feel good about them and the church so that is OK. I personally know longer consider myself a member and have quit looking to LDS leadership for answers to any of my moral or scriptural needs. I now just read the Bible and pray to God and have never been happier and am I honestly feel way less conflicted than at any time during the first 55+ years of my life. It is really amazing that when you leave the LDS church and do not have to spend hours and hours studying and praying to make things that make no sense fit into what you are being taught or trying to teach tying in together. I can bear you my testimony that if you will just spend 2 or 3 hours saying would I believe this if it was anyone else besides Joseph Smith it is really easy to get a clear answer. I was preparing a family home evening lesson about the book of Abraham for my family approximately 3 years ago. I was serving in the bishopric of my ward at that time. About an hour into my lesson prep I called my bishop and let him know that I was no longer able to serve in a calling when I no longer believed that Joseph was a prophet. The first thing that came to my mind was the quote by Pres. Hinckley that if the whole strength of the LDS church hinged on the first vision. IF Joseph was a prophet and seer he would not have gotten everything in the book of Abraham wrong. If he would lie about his ability to translate then why would he not just as easily lie about the first vision? The answer is he would have no problem lying about the first vision and there is ample proof that he made the whole thing up. Even Brigham taught in the Journal of Discourses that Joseph NEVER saw God and Christ in the first vision. Bottom line is that I was out of the church within a few hours for all intents and purposes and have never been happier. Luckily my wife is able to remain a strong member in spite of being married to a heathen so that part of my life did not crash down around me and for that I am extremely grateful. If you will spend a few hours looking at the church with just a slightly different viewpoint and pray to God for an answer I know for me that answer was, it is all a great big lie and while the church does a lot of good for a lot of people it is not the church that Christ restored through Joseph Smith. Here is a really good question to start with. IF God and Christ appeared to Joseph Smith and later sent messages to him through angels, why would they ask him to rely on a magical rock (peep stone) to get answers and revelations? They would not, why take a chance when it is easy for them to send an angel to tell him EXACTLY what they needed/wanted restored. NEVER in the history of this planet has anyone had a working peep stone. IF Joseph had one that means that other people had them. IF such a thing were true then people today would have them. Magic is not real and never has been. Good luck and hopefully this will help someone who is struggling with these issues.

[@carlosjosejimenezbermudez9255]

Link to the book?

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Links are in the description!

[@daleclark7127]

I believe the BofA is possibly the most difficult to defend or attack since most, if not all, of us do not have the educational background since this is a very complicated issue. It is great to have folks that do possess such knowledge to help us navigate the waters if you will. This is important since some of our key doctrines are sourced from this book (intelligences, preexistence, estates, cosmology etc..

[@randyjordan5521]

I'm just a high school graduate, and I can understand the issues just fine. I obviously can't read ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, but I can read what professional Egyptologists say about it. If you have a burning desire to delve into it, I suggest you read: "The Breathing Permit of Hor" by Dr. Robert Ritner "The Use of Egyptian Magical Papyri to Authenticate the Book of Abraham" by Edward H. Ashment "Egyptology and the Book of Abraham" by Steve Thompson "By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus" by Charles Larson

[@daleclark7127]

@@randyjordan5521 thanks for the suggestions. I have read many of these and like books you’ve mentioned. My point was that many, especially on line folks, either critic or supporter has very little understanding of the issues etc.. Yes, us laymen can glean much from the writings on the subject but will still lack the deeper implications without formal Egyptological background. So yes, stick with the professionals on this. And that goes for those supporting and critical of the text and origin.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@daleclark7127 If you've read "By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus," you know pretty much everything there is to know about the BOA controversy. The historical evidence tells the story of the BOA: Joseph Smith claimed to be able to translate ancient languages with divine aid. That's how he claimed to produce the Book of Mormon. Because of those claims, some of his followers bought the Egyptian artifacts in 1835 for some $2200 (a hefty sum in those days), expecting Joseph to be able to translate them. At that time, the study of Egyptology was in its infancy, so nobody knew much about the scrolls' meaning. Joseph knew very well that he had no clue as to their meaning, so he began pretending to compose an "alphabet and grammar" of the hieroglyphs. He toyed around with that in his spare time. By 1842, he was settled in Nauvoo, and he owned a newspaper called The Times & Seasons. He got the idea to come up with a story based on the papyrus. He used various characters on the vignettes to build his story around, most notably the "lion-couch" scene, which he said depicted the Biblical character Abraham being attacked by a wicked Egyptian priest. Because Joseph was familiar with Bible stories, it was natural for him to create a Biblical-based story. Joseph had his story published in his newspaper in installment form. The paper published an ad urging readers to renew their subscriptions so they wouldn't miss any installments. So, Joseph's purpose in writing the story was to sell his newspapers. By 1859, the study of ancient Egyptology had progressed to the point for a professor named Gustavus Seyffarth to declare that Joseph's "interpretations" of the scrolls were completely bogus. Even with that, the Utah LDS church canonized the BOA in 1880. The RLDS church wisely steered clear of it, because their leaders knew that its origin and provenance were sketchy. It was the Utah church's canonization of the story that forced Mormon apologists to engage in this 143-year-long effort to defend the BOA's authenticity. So, even though modern research and scholarship all these years continue to confirm that the BOA is bogus, the apologists are forced to defend it. So they have to concoct things like the "missing scroll theory" and the "catalyst theory" in order to try to explain away Joseph's bogus "interpretations." Something that believing Mormons ought to factor in to their study of the BOA controversy is that Joseph also claimed that the Kinderhook plates (which were a hoax made for the purpose of exposing him as a fraud) actually dealt with characters in the Book of Mormon; and Joseph's 1842 assertion that an old book written in Greek was in fact a "dictionary of Egyptian hieroglyphics." So, the bottom line is that every item/document which Joseph claimed to deal with some ancient language and historical material actually turned out to be a hoax or something completely different from what Joseph claimed they were. We don't have the alleged "golden plates" by which we can judge Joseph's veracity; but every item we DO have tells us that he had no special knowledge about those items.

[@richardholmes5676]

@@randyjordan5521 The arrogant Egyptologist assessments against Joseph Smith have been debunked. Care to refute?

[@richardholmes5676]

It doesn't appear as though randyjordan in this comment thread realizes that Paul Gregersen debunked the Egyptologist assessments against Joseph Smith. Gregersen demonstrates that Joseph Smith was right, the Egyptologists were wrong.

[@elitestockpicks8212]

Someone has to be worthy to pick up the book. It will also be counted unto those who walk in the steps of Abraham (Rom. 4:12)

[@WhiteCleats]

Is Stephen Smoot sporting a french manicure?? In any case, I've never heard him speak before but he's great -- nice and pithy and I'm always here for a speed talker.

[@tonimartinowen]

Link to the not a magazine/book, it’s a journal that looks like a book, please.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Links are now in the description :)

[@adamhawkins3036]

Ive never read the book of abraham..i would like to..i have read the book of mormon i thoroughly enjoyed it.. and too i gotta say thats a nice suit my guy..you are missing a nice fedora hat or a derby to complete the ensemble..love yall from Tennessee

[@BlazeHawk1315]

Thanks for your comment Adam, this is Jaxon (the hairy guy in the black haha)! Much love!

[@randyjordan5521]

The Book of Abraham is on-line. It's only 15 pages long.

[@adamhawkins3036]

@@randyjordan5521 oh cool o didnt know that thanks!

[@adamhawkins3036]

@@BlazeHawk1315 haha cool brother..i dig the handle too..that should be your rap name haha

[@johnmichaelson9173]

The book of Abraham is impossible to defend. So if you're happy lying to yourself & the people around you, may God have mercy on your soul.

[@michaelparks5669]

HAHAHA THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM IS THE MOST EASY OF LDS SCRIPTURES TO DEFEND. WANT TO DEBATE.?

[@johnmichaelson9173]

@@michaelparks5669 Never mind the comedy "translation" & all the other nutty flavour like Eden was in Missouri. It wasn't written by the hand of Abraham who lived no later than 1500 BCE. The Papyrus has been dated to the third century BCE & first century CE. So save the bullsh*t for someone else. There ends the debate.

[@michaelparks5669]

@@johnmichaelson9173 HAHAHA "DEBATE" IS BETWEEN AT LEAST TWO PEOPLE AND YOU ARE HIDING FROM MY RESPONSE. . Facsimile #1 uses a determinative translation of Hieroglyphics. Joseph Smith got it correct. Eden in Missouri is not in the Book of Abraham. Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. Abraham lived about 1850 BC. Most likely during the reign of Amenemhat III . Again you have no idea what you are talking about. "written by the hand of Abraham" is an ancient expression to say a Narration . Other books of Abraham such as the Apocalypse of Abraham and Abraham section of the Genesis Apocryphon, also use the narration style. These books of Abraham were published since the LDS Book of Abraham was. The original text was written in Egypt most likely at the Library of Alexandria about 250 BC. The stories of Abraham in the Bible were written in the Library of Alexandria also about 250 BC. The LDS Book of Abraham uses a an Egyptian Book of the Dead template to tell events in the life of Abraham. The Ethiopian Testament of Abraham which is used by Christians also uses the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Humm clearly you need to study up. STILL WANT TO DEBATE ME?

[@michaelparks5669]

@@johnmichaelson9173 KZbin ERASED MY POST. LOOKS LIKE THE NAZIS ARE BACK

[@sheepinwolfesclothing]

​@@michaelparks5669no rebuttle ? U literally got 1 stroked

[@loudogg73]

What's the book??

[@latter-daysaintbatman2679]

Thank you for defending the legitimacy of the prophet Joseph Smith and defending that the Book of Abraham is true despite the mistakes that exist. Yep. The criticism towards us Latter-day Saints is a bit extremely far fetched. There is evidence and there are things Joseph Smith says that are logical and makes sense like what the guy said. The church pretty much doesn’t know everything either, so Stephen, you aren’t alone in saying you don’t know fully nor understand everything.

[@loganmclean6510]

Love the show, but the setup is very awkward. Having the two hosts on a couch with the guest able to face the two of you would be much less awkward. It puts the edge in a very awkward spot having to look back and forth over his shoulders while also feeling that he needs to look at the camera. If he could just focus on looking at you guys in one direction it would be a lot smoother and I think it would even help your conversation

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Appreciate the feedback! We have since changed our set and the way we film our episodes. If you haven't seen any of our latest episodes, be sure to take a look and let us know what you think!

[@sheepinwolfesclothing]

Wait wait wait 10:38 In questioning the authenticity of the manuscript of paparie. Dont look at that look instead at the finished product(book of abraham?) or is he saying look at what is in the paparie. Either way the whats in the book of abraham is not whats in the paparie. Whats in the paparie is representetive of a egytion myth which dates it to 1800 years after abrhams day. What yall saying

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

Google Egyptologists back Smith Paul Gregersen you tube.

[@franklebatista1091]

First of all, we all have to understand first what a vident, revelator and anointed from the Lord, also a prophet. Joseph Smith was the same . Joseph could have been talking to a couple of people or a group and suddenly he was seen a revelation regarding any issue. Even more if he would ask for specific issue. Like the prophesy of the White horse; ( from where this revelation recived it name)Joseph was looking at a picture and started seen the last days of the United States constitution. He said : that the constitution would be hanging on a thread. So the same as when translating any lenguage characters he could've simultaneously seen the heavens open and actually translating directly from heavens. While he was drinking water from a water spring before the saints had not been depart to the west he stopped on the way while he was going to another place with a bunch of saints, he stopped and drunk water and he said : this water taste the same that you would enjoy at the other side of the rocky mountains. I will not be there with you but some of you will. He not even saw the place and the water springs he also tasted!!

[@piperjohnson4808]

What's the books name?

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Links to Stephen's work can be found in the video description :)

[@aaronhinton92]

Get someone to mix you audio properly. This hurts my ears.

[@RyanMercer]

Sounds fine to me...

[@aaronhinton92]

@@RyanMercer No, it doesn't. It's not correctly mixed.

[@ponkerfickledude3852]

Yee yee Smoot man

[@lrsvalentine]

Why don't you publish these wonderful findings in a truly academic journal? I'm sure Egyptologists all over the world are waiting for your enlightenment.😂😂😂😂

[@richardholmes5676]

This revelation/explanation from Joseph Smith was never intended to be interpreted the way an Egyptologist would.

[@lrsvalentine]

​​@@richardholmes5676our god is sick. To put blatant racism directly into holy books? Revelation? Shame on you guys.

[@BrendonKing]

Oh I would kill to see the peer review on this.

[@PrairieChristianOutreach]

@@richardholmes5676Correct, facts always get in the way of LDS beliefs. The Book of Abraham is a long con by JS and his crew. It is so obviously a fallacious document, to say otherwise is to be willfully ignorant.

[@harryhenderson2479]

I love how Mormons say that it was “inspired.” Also, any person who needs to refer to themselves as a scholar over and over is no real scholar.

[@lootingiv4058]

What are "Mormons"?? If the gold plates never existed, how did Joseph get numerous witnesses to stand by their stories until their dying day, even when some of them later became angry with joseph and left the church? How could Joseph have known about the ancient cement technology in the first century B.C. in mesoamerica? How could Joseph Smith make up dozens of names in the Book of Mormon that would later be shown to be authentic semetic names? Where did Joseph get the idea of ancient scripture written on metal plates? How did Joseph Smith know about ancient practices regarding preservations of sacred texts? Why do other ancient documents support the Book of Mormons idea that ancient Joseph prophesied of Moses and Aaron? If there was no apostasy in the Church of Jesus Christ, then what happened to the prophets? At a time when all Christian churches taught that temples were no longer needed how did Joseph so effectively restore the ancient temple concept on his own? If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow why are we the only ones with 12 apostles like it clearly was back then? Now for the fun part. Bible verses 😄 Ezekiel 37:16-17 talks about 2 "sticks" where Judah will write upon it and Joseph will write upon it. Why has nothing come up about what Joseph has written besides the book of mormon? It also says they will be joined together into one "stick" which is how we use the bible and BoM together. End of John 15 and beginning of John 16 it talks about how we will be hated for Christs name. However this could potentially be talking about all Christians in general which is true, But in our early church we were killed over it and it says that we will be killed over it. John 10:16 clearly talks about other people that he needs to bring the gospel to. (people of the BoM) Amos 3:7 talks about revelation but no "mormons" are crazy to think modern revelation can happen. 3 kingdoms of glory (plan of salvation) 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 Need for a restoration: Acts 3:19-21 Priesthood authority: Hebrews 5:4 (not scripture) but there was a study dont on the Book of Mormon using stylometry proving the BoM was written by multiple people and not one man. (Non LDS statistician that teamed up with BYU) Title:"On Verifying Wordprint Studies: Book of Mormon Authorship" Authors: John L. Hilton, et al. Published in: BYU Studies, Volume 30, number 3- Summer 1990 Bible verses that talk about works along with faith: James 2:14-26 Matthew 5:16 Mathew 7:21 Ephesians 2:10 Galatians 6:9-10 1 Corinthians 6:9 Revelation 14:13 Apostolic authority: Ephesians 2:19-20 Talks about us becoming Gods: John 10:34-36 2 Peter 1:4 1 John 3:2 John 17:20-21 Psalm 82 Ephesians 4:5 talks about how we should be one and not split off when we dislike what we heard (Not split off when we dislike what we hear) Ephesians 2:20 talks about how his church will be built upon apostles and prophets with Christ being the chief cornerstone. Anybody else got apostles? Christ became exalted and wasn't always: Acts 2:30-33 Philippians 2:9 Acts 5:30-33 Luke 22:69 Mark 16:19 1 Peter 3:22 Ephesians 1:2 We can become like Christ: Romans 8:29-30 Revelation 3:21-22 Revelation 2:26-29 Psalm 82:1-8 John 10:32-35 Acts 17:29 Hebrews 12:9 Talks about preaching to the dead or baptisms for the dead: 1 Corinthians 15:29 1 Peter 3:18-20 1 Peter 4:5-6 Baptism is required: 1 Peter 3:21 Hebrews 11:32-40 states in verse 40 that they without us cannot be made perfect. Which means we can do work for the dead and they cant be made perfect and like Christ without us. Ezekiel 11:15-21 talks about how Israel will be scattered but will be gathered together. (who has more missionaries than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?) Jude 1:15 talks about how we will be judged for being ungodly Jude 1:18 talks about in the last days there will be mockers Jude 1:23 talks about how people will hate our idea of garments and mock us about it (yet garments are "CRAZY" to non LDS) Hebrews 7 talks about the Melchizedek Priesthood and how it is superior over the Aaronic priesthood (who has the Melchizedek and Aaronic Priesthood?) Hebrews 7:4 mentions patriarch which we have Hebrews 7:5 talks about paying tithes Hebrews 7:26 mentions the position of High Priest 1 Peter 1:3 talks about how Christ is Heavenly Fathers son (Godhead) Acts 7:55 "and Jesus standing on the right hand of God" (somehow they are the same person!!) Isaiah 2:2-3 talks about how the Lords house will be built in the top of the mountains. Utah literally means "people of the mountains". That is where our church headquarters is and where the main temple (which is the house of the Lord) is. Malachi 3:1 and 4:5-6: "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly comee to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts." "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." This prophesy was fulfilled April 3, 1836, when Elijah the prophet did come suddenly to the temple in Kirtland, Ohio, and bestowed the sealing keys of the priesthood to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Acts 3:22 says how "A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you." (sounds like he will raise up a prophet to me) Amos 8:11-12 talks about how there will be a famine in the land, but not a famine of bread or thirst but of the words of the Lord and anybody who seeks or searches for it will not find it. (pretty sure a restoration is needed then!!) Revelation 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame" Sounds like a need for garments in the last days for me. Revelation 22:16 (which is prophesy for the last days!!) "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." An angel will come and testify!!!! (MORONI!!) Restoration: Isaiah 11:11-12 Daniel 2:34-35, 44 Malachi 3: 1-3 Acts: 3:20-25 If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow why does no other church have the seventy besides LDS? Exodus 24:1,9 Numbers 11:16 Luke 10:1.17 Joel 2:28 says that young men will see a vision (first vision!!) James 5:14-15 talks about Elders and how they will give blessings with oil (We do that!!) 😄😄😄

[@itsdutchintime1907]

No. They're a real scholar if they have sufficient education on a specific matter. So Smoot is indeed a scholar whether you like it or not.

[@theriveroffaith852]

Prophets can look at an object through the seer's stone, and receive a vision or record of it. That's probably what happened here.

[@tckempton523]

No they cannot. There is no such thing as a seer stone. Never has been and never will be. In order to be more clear, I believe that people throughout history have had seer stones BUT no one has ever had one that would allow them to see anything other than the rock when they look at it. Never. Ever. Not since the creation of the universe has anyone ever had a magic rock that did anything other than to be a rock. If you believe that anyone has ever had a working peep stone then you really need to reconsider what you consider to be truth. The fact that this is even a discussion is beyond bizarre to me. If your neighbor came to you and said that he had a way to help you find lost items with his magical peep stone would you believe him or would you think he was a complete and total loon. If you believe that Joseph Smith had a working peep stone then you have to acknowledge that many, many others before and since have had the same magical power. You know that this is not possible, you may not be at a place where you can admit it yet but, you know that no one has ever had a peep stone that would allow them to do anything other than con others with it. Good luck and when you are able to admit this to yourself will be one of the most liberating feelings you will have.

[@jugatsu23nichi]

How can I obtain a copy of that journal Stephen was sharing?

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Links are in the description!

[@jugatsu23nichi]

@@SaintsUnscripted Thank you!!

[@Hamann9631]

To those who are poisoning the well about Stephen's bias. Everybody has bias. That is a very bad argument.

[@jmhatutube]

Great episode. You guys are awesome and I'm so grateful for the approach you take. You dialog and conversations are very approachable and non-contentious. You try to enlighten rather that indoctrinate. I feel like I was more indoctrinated growing up. As I've gotten older and, as a computer programmer, I've had to learn logic and critical thinking. You'll never get a program to work without logic and critical thinking. That being said, I did have a faith crisis on my mission in Florida simply because of how I was raised and that I didn't have a strong testimony when I went out. I though I had one, but when it was challenged by individuals twice my age that had studied my religion far more deeply and much longer than I had, I had no chance against them. On my mission there were many highly-organized anti-Mormon Evangelical groups, and they were harsh. I was speechless when someone bore their testimony against mine. I was rather devastated that someone would be so harsh, not just to such a young person, but someone of another faith. But I was very ignorant and young. With my faith crisis I learned one major lesson that had stayed with my my whole life since; once I gained that testimony of the Book of Mormon, everything I questioned about Joseph Smith and his work was always compared to the framework of "I know the BOM is true, therefore Joseph Smith is a prophet, and as a prophet he said and did this, this, and that, so I'm good. That's how I approach the Book of Mormon. I also have learned to realize that prophets are human and make human mistakes and they way individuals criticize these Joseph's mistakes would never hold with any faith leaders they look to as authorities. Just my $0.02. Well, probably a little more than that, but you can ask my wife, I talk and type too much. My texts are ridiculous.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Very cool story of faith and logic! Thanks for sharing.

[@jmhatutube]

@@Jozeemoss It’s unlikely you would know the difference between either the former or the latter - you shouldn’t troll.

[@mbflip21]

@@jmhatutube ignorance is bliss, huh?

[@jmhatutube]

@@Jozeemoss Really? The Deuteronomy 18 issue, were it applied to Biblical prophets the way it's applied to Joseph Smith then Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Nathan, an angel of God, Jonah, and would also condemn the Old Testament as a fraud. You seem to have a double standard, or just don't understand prophecy and how God works. Maybe I can help you understand better. Initially, prophecy may be fulfilled in a way differently than how hearers expect. Also, most prophecies are contingent, even if it's contingency is not expressly stated. One fact with God that many seem to not understand well is agency. God will never force anyone to do something; which means individuals can have an effect on prophecy. Deut 18 doesn't specifically state that an unfulfilled prophecy makes one a false prophet. Just to belabor my point, even bibles scholars and commentators see problems with strictly applying this kind of test: "As far as external considerations were involved, therefore, there would appear to have been [in Old Testament times] virtually no means of differentiating the true from the false prophet....While the popular view current in the seventh century B.C. distinguished a true prophet from a false one on the basis of whether their predictions were fulfilled or not, this attitude merely constituted an inversion of the situation as it ultimately emerged, and not an absolute criterion of truth or falsity as such. As Albright has pointed out, the fulfilment of prophecies was only one important element in the validation of a genuine prophet, and in some instances was not even considered to be an essential ingredient, as illustrated by the apparent failure of the utterances of Haggai [Haggai 2:21] against the Persian empire." Citation please? Here you go: R.K. Harrsion, Introduction to the Old Testament (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1969); reprint edition by (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., 2004), 755-756. One more thing you should also understand, God has the right and privilege to revoke certain prophecies, as He says He is free to do in Jeremiah 18:7-10. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. While God doesn't need to repent, the definition used here is change, or God changes his mind. While that is more wordy, God would be changing His mind to execute the destruction. Since we all know that God is not evil either, that little section where it says "...I will repent of the evil" would be better stated as "I will turn back my wrath" or something like that. I know enough about Hebrew to know that it's a difficult language to translate into English. There are so many other points I could make about this, but it's really a non-starter. Like a said above, anyone using this standard against Joseph Smith's prophetic calling must then apply it equally to prophets in the Bible, and many would fail. Are you ready to throw out the Bible because equal application of this test disqualifies many biblical prophets? ...I didn't think so. Well, at least you learned something today. Whether you take action on it will be another story because Joseph Smith was a prophet - every bit as legitimate as any other Biblical prophet.

[@MrMelmott]

Sure you’ll have no problem getting your “doctorate “ at Brigham Young University

[@joelunderhill126]

We literally have the texts he translated from guys! They are funery texts. What else is to be said?

[@taylorallred]

If anyone, whether by scholarly work or divine inspiration, could read the text and they got to any of the facsimiles that clearly have nothing to do with Abraham or Moses, they would have at least said, “this part is secular about x we can skip that. Here is a different part about Abraham.” In stead J Smith presents it like, “bro I can translate this text it’s all about Abraham and Joseph of Egypt”. Let’s also dive into the misrepresentation about using the word “translate” when it’s NOT translating that’s a deceitful word to use if you have the text, claim you can read it and then say later “well it when I said translate I don’t mean translate I mean wink wink translate” that’s not the dialogue of an honest man.

[@spr00sem00se]

The church has touted the book of Abraham as a literal translation for years. There is nothing that I have been taught that suggests otherwise. Its only once it beomes common knowlege that the book is not a translation of the papyrus that the church release a weak attempt to justify it in the essay. "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus." they could not be any clearer about the fact that it is meant to be a translation of hte papyrus, and Abraham wrote the original........ anything else said on the matter is purely trying to cover up the error of what they have been teaching since it was added to the canon.

[@LatterDayPup]

Why does the BOA always attract the most toxic of our detractors?

[@lootingiv4058]

because they cant see the truth and are bias and have a hard heart so they will do anything to "prove" us wrong.

[@lootingiv4058]

@@Jozeemoss If the gold plates never existed, how did Joseph get numerous witnesses to stand by their stories until their dying day, even when some of them later became angry with joseph and left the church? How could Joseph have known about the ancient cement technology in the first century B.C. in mesoamerica? How could Joseph Smith make up dozens of names in the Book of Mormon that would later be shown to be authentic semetic names? Where did Joseph get the idea of ancient scripture written on metal plates? How did Joseph Smith know about ancient practices regarding preservations of sacred texts? Why do other ancient documents support the Book of Mormons idea that ancient Joseph prophesied of Moses and Aaron? If there was no apostasy in the Church of Jesus Christ, then what happened to the prophets? At a time when all Christian churches taught that temples were no longer needed how did Joseph so effectively restore the ancient temple concept on his own? If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow why are we the only ones with 12 apostles like it clearly was back then? Now for the fun part. Bible verses 😄 Ezekiel 37:16-17 talks about 2 "sticks" where Judah will write upon it and Joseph will write upon it. Why has nothing come up about what Joseph has written besides the book of mormon? It also says they will be joined together into one "stick" which is how we use the bible and BoM together. End of John 15 and beginning of John 16 it talks about how we will be hated for Christs name. However this could potentially be talking about all Christians in general which is true, But in our early church we were killed over it and it says that we will be killed over it. John 10:16 clearly talks about other people that he needs to bring the gospel to. (people of the BoM) Amos 3:7 talks about revelation but no "mormons" are crazy to think modern revelation can happen. 3 kingdoms of glory (plan of salvation) 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 Need for a restoration: Acts 3:19-21 Priesthood authority: Hebrews 5:4 (not scripture) but there was a study dont on the Book of Mormon using stylometry proving the BoM was written by multiple people and not one man. (Non LDS statistician that teamed up with BYU) Title:"On Verifying Wordprint Studies: Book of Mormon Authorship" Authors: John L. Hilton, et al. Published in: BYU Studies, Volume 30, number 3- Summer 1990 Bible verses that talk about works along with faith: James 2:14-26 Matthew 5:16 Mathew 7:21 Ephesians 2:10 Galatians 6:9-10 1 Corinthians 6:9 Revelation 14:13 Apostolic authority: Ephesians 2:19-20 Talks about us becoming Gods: John 10:34-36 2 Peter 1:4 1 John 3:2 John 17:20-21 Psalm 82 Ephesians 4:5 talks about how we should be one and not split off when we dislike what we heard (Not split off when we dislike something) Ephesians 2:20 talks about how his church will be built upon apostles and prophets with Christ being the chief cornerstone. Christ became exalted and wasn't always: Acts 2:30-33 Philippians 2:9 Acts 5:30-33 Luke 22:69 Mark 16:19 1 Peter 3:22 Ephesians 1:2 We can become like Christ: Romans 8:29-30 Revelation 3:21-22 Revelation 2:26-29 Psalm 82:1-8 John 10:32-35 Acts 17:29 Hebrews 12:9 Talks about preaching to the dead or baptisms for the dead: 1 Corinthians 15:29 1 Peter 3:18-20 1 Peter 4:5-6 Baptism is required: 1 Peter 3:21 Hebrews 11:32-40 states in verse 40 that they without us cannot be made perfect. Which means we can do work for the dead and they cant be made perfect and like Christ without us. Ezekiel 11:15-21 talks about how Israel will be scattered but will be gathered together. (who has more missionaries than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?) Jude 1:15 talks about how we will be judged for being ungodly Jude 1:18 talks about in the last days there will be mockers Jude 1:23 talks about how people will hate our idea of garments and mock us about it (yet garments are "CRAZY" to non LDS) Hebrews 7 talks about the Melchizedek Priesthood and how it is superior over the Aaronic priesthood (who has the Melchizedek and Aaronic Priesthood?) Hebrews 7:4 mentions patriarch which we have Hebrews 7:5 talks about paying tithes (to my knowledge Catholics do as well) Hebrews 7:26 mentions the position of High Priest 1 Peter 1:3 talks about how Christ is Heavenly Fathers son (Godhead) Acts 7:55 "and Jesus standing on the right hand of God" (somehow they are the same person!!) Isaiah 2:2-3 talks about how the Lords house will be built in the top of the mountains. Utah literally means "people of the mountains". That is where our church headquarters is and where the main temple (which is the house of the Lord) is. Malachi 3:1 and 4:5-6: "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts." "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." This prophesy was fulfilled April 3, 1836, when Elijah the prophet did come suddenly to the temple in Kirtland, Ohio, and bestowed the sealing keys of the priesthood to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Acts 3:22 says how "A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you." (sounds like he will raise up a prophet to me) Amos 8:11-12 talks about how there will be a famine in the land, but not a famine of bread or thirst but of the words of the Lord and anybody who seeks or searches for it will not find it. (pretty sure a restoration is needed then!!) Revelation 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame" Sounds like a need for garments in the last days for me. Revelation 22:16 (which is prophesy for the last days!!) "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." An angel will come and testify!!!! (MORONI) Restoration: Isaiah 11:11-12 Daniel 2:34-35, 44 Malachi 3: 1-3 Acts: 3:20-25 If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow why does no other church have the seventy besides LDS? Exodus 24:1,9 Numbers 11:16 Luke 10:1.17 Joel 2:28 says that a young man will see a vision (first vision!!) James 5:14-15 talks about Elders and how they will give blessings with oil (We do that!!)

[@jordanwutkee2548]

​@@JozeemossGood thing it's not fiction.

[@jordanwutkee2548]

@@Jozeemoss No Latter-day Saint prophet has ever preached to the people to turn away from the Lord, so that scripture is not relevant here.

[@randyjordan5521]

It's because it's the most obvious of Joseph Smith's fake productions. We don't have the alleged golden plates by which to judge Smith's "translating" ability; but we do have the Egyptian papyrii, and those documents have nothing to do with the Biblical character Abraham or the Judeo-Christian in the least. Smith was able to fool his gullible followers with his fanciful "translations" in 1842, because the field of understanding the meaning of ancient Egptian hieroglyphs and iconography was in its infancy. But by the late 1850s, scholars were dismissing Smith's "interpretations" as a fraud. Ever since then, Smith's defenders such as the guys in this video have had to engage in all sorts of mental gymnastics in order to "save" Smith's reputation.

[@JSandLDS]

if you believe something is holy Scripture. It is holy Scripture to you. It's authenticity is kind of irrelevant and no point arguing over. You can profoundly change your life through words you've read on the back of a cereal packet.

[@ievgengolskov1611]

Your talk was so quick and intense that I had to check if the speed of the video was normal. It was normal

[@peteskoczylis9432]

Smith saud he translated what he bought from Chandler and what we have is a plagerized/extended version of the biblical Abraham. Of course they have been made to fot, every author of a historical novel does that, but JS didn't sell it as a November a translation of something he claims Abraham wrote. For his sake I hope Abraham really existed in the first place

[@goransahlin4072]

There is some more prof. if you read book of enok and noa there is name kolob & kokabeum in that book and also in book of abraham !!

[@wildhorses1339]

Bruh I watched this whole thing and learned nothing. what on earth is he saying?? where are the facts??? hello??

[@BlueJayBirdSaint]

Great video. The BoA is a great source of revelation. Be aware of that, folks. You won't find anywhere else what that book has to offer.

[@richardholmes5676]

You're right. As Paul Gregersen debunked the Egyptologists, the anti-Mormons are having nightmares. This is proof the Book of Abraham is a great source of revelation. Otherwise the anti-Mormons wouldn't be avoiding comment on Paul Gregersen debunking the Egyptologists.

[@BlueJayBirdSaint]

@@Jozeemoss the problem is that we don’t know 100% what is the case. And as far as I know, and I am a member of this church, it is not fiction.

[@lrsvalentine]

Sure it does. Like the racist doctrine of the curse of Cain.

[@BlueJayBirdSaint]

@@lrsvalentine what’s the deal with it?

[@lrsvalentine]

@@BlueJayBirdSaint Scientifically proven to be a joke. Joe Smith wanted money, power, and sex. He fooled (and fools) a lot of people.

[@AlecSorensen]

I think comparing what the book says with what know about the ancient world is an okay place to start. I think more powerful evidence would be to look at what it says that was either unknown about the ancient world at the time of publication or what contradicted generally accepted ideas at the time but has known been shown to be true about the ancient world since publication.

[@FAITHandLOGIC]

Cognitive Dissonance

[@Sayheybrother8]

The book of Abraham literally refers to the facsimile found on the same page!!! Stephen, I’m sorry but your apologetics are so thin it causes some of us who have been very faithful members over the years to question our faith. Your apologetics are designed for those who never do their own research into the facts.

[@dennygreen322]

I’m confused. You don’t come across as someone who “believes in the words of the Book of Mormon” like you claimed you did in our other comment thread. What’s your deal? You seem to be quite cynical. Are you having a faith crisis? Are you pretending to be someone your not? And who are “some of us” that you referred to? do you have s split personality? I appreciate Stephens apologetics and I think you are dismissing them prematurely. I also question your motives here.

[@Sayheybrother8]

@@dennygreen322 you appreciate hearing from someone who starts the conversation by saying my evidence is biased?

[@dennygreen322]

@@Sayheybrother8 he said everyone’s evidence is biased, and he’s not wrong, it’s naïve and arrogant for anyone to claim otherwise. But it doesn’t mean the arguments can’t be reasonable and worth considering.

[@Sayheybrother8]

@@dennygreen322 if you start with a conclusion you’re not willing to adjust with new evidence you’re not being honest with yourself. And if you have any influence or power over others you’ll be held responsible.

[@dennygreen322]

@@Sayheybrother8 I’m glad you have learned that through this conversation. Welcome back brother!

[@lisajones1438]

Thank you so much fpr the video. This has been bothering me

[@SaintsUnscripted]

You're welcome

[@adambeck369]

It should

[@sdb816]

These videos aren’t as successful as your faith and beliefs format…

[@SaintsUnscripted]

While we understand that different formats may resonate with different viewers, we strive to offer a variety of content to cater to varying interests. Some of that content includes being able to explore other topics, hear outside perspectives, and share conversion stories in these unscripted episodes. Whether it's just for our Faith and Beliefs series, or for all of our episodes, we value your support and appreciate you being a part of our community!

[@RyanMercer]

I enjoyed it 🤷‍♂

[@chuckkv]

Treasure dig scrying, never finding any treasure. JST plagiarized from Adam Clarke - not translated. Book of Abraham - not translated. Book of Mormon sits in the woods outside the Hales house, while being "translated" through a seer stone? He's a translator that doesn't translate anything... About the only title I can still mentally afford to give him anymore is seer, and that's pretty generous when you consider #1 above.

[@karliesukowaty]

I love all your videos but please take out your cartoon edits. It detracts from the message.

[@RyanMercer]

I disagree, it makes it more engaging for a large portion of the audience. You're just not the audience for that style of editing.

[@ivaxnog6157]

Right cool

[@guitarbuildin5707]

insananity .who was this josef smith

[@mmaspidermonkey]

Wow..... Just wow. The title of the video really had me thinking there would be something useful in it. 18 minutes of talking and not really addressing much of anything.

[@gilbertpalacios9874]

You all seem like very nice intelligent young men. I believe you when you say you have a testimony of the book of Abraham. I would submit to you to research further. You use the word complications? Yes there are many, dont be apologists for the church. The book of Mormon can stand on its own as the D of C can, the B of A cannot.

[@mikefoxtrot1314]

Do you know of any Egyptologists who were converted based on Joseph’s translations of Egyptian?

[@richardholmes5676]

The arrogant Egyptologists opinion is unneeded.

[@lance7607]

@@richardholmes5676 Are you saying that the opinions of experts in the field aren't relevant and that all those experts are arrogant?

[@mikefoxtrot1314]

@@richardholmes5676 I suppose that does answer my question.

[@mikefoxtrot1314]

@@richardholmes5676 You’re doing great

[@sethdoddridge7806]

​@@richardholmes5676Both Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists confirmed the translation has nothing to do with the actual papyrus. The Church even has a Gospel Topic Essay acknowledging this.

[@colinrow725]

Classic apologetics. Provide just enough plausibly to those who are desperate to believe it. Like hypnosis, it only works if you want it to.

[@mbflip21]

Love the question about being biased and he said "first of all..." Yes it's biased! Not even a second point offered lol

[@mbflip21]

It's impossible for JS to be a prophet without also claiming the Gospel is fiction. If one thing he says is untrue, that is a false prophet.

[@lisajones1438]

Guys.... The video snippets are VERY jarring. (E.g. the Genie from alladin near the beginning) I'm not sure whats wrong with them exactly. I'm certainly not a pro, but theres definitely something wrong with them

[@SD-hs2pk]

No if he’s a profet he would be more accurate then trained Egyptologist

[@karil2918]

Same as DARWIN

[@taylorallred]

So … he gives zero specific instances of the authenticity of the book as it relates to Egyptology and zero instances of issues that don’t match up … very poor dialogue.

[@michaelparks5669]

SAINTS UNSCRIPTED YOU ARE NOT THE PLACE FOR DISCUSSION... YOU DELETE OUR LDS POSTS.........

[@3thingsfishing427]

I'm pretty sure an 8 year old could have done a better job of guessing.

[@giveththeloot1517]

Lol.

[@Cyber_Cowboy]

Let me give you an example. Here I have the iPhone user agreement pamphlet in French. I tell you that it was written by the hand of Jesus. Then I open it up and start translating it giving you a story about Jesus. Later on For fun let's say a Canadian from Montreal comes by. And you're amazed and you tell this person that I have this book that was written by Jesus and I through magic i have translated This foreign language (French) and reveal the story about Jesus written by Jesus. And this person that knows French says what are you talking about. Not only without a doubt was that not written by Jesus and without a doubt it wasn't made at the time Jesus was alive and without a doubt it is not even close to a story about Jesus. Would it be smart to believe what I said over the person that knows English and French That's rhetorical question I will just tell you you would be be right if you thought I was a fraud because that's kind of a definition of fraud

[@hugotorrado3948]

The book is FALSE. 1) GOD call the prophets, not the prophet said I need to go to a place I can find pace. 2) GOD never send scriptures in company of false gods the status. 3) GOD never send scriptures for sale or profits. 4) GOD never send scriptures with an unbelievers, Mr Chandler was not of the Church. 5) It's was no name of Abraham in the papyrus. 6) GOD will send an Angel or a vision to disclosure the nature of the mission. 7) Joseph Smith never ask for Devine Guidance in what to do. 8) Abraham Chapter 2: 23 - 24 state that GOD tell Abraham to lie to the Egyptian that Sarah is your sister, for fear of be kill by the Egyptian, ( GOD do not work by fears ). 9) Abraham Chapter 3: 15 Absurd that GOD is sending Abraham to teach the idolatrous Egyptian. 10) Totally nonsense to Canonized the Egyptian mortuary papyrus. ((( These are some of the false mimicking revelations of the devil.)))

[@redfightblue]

Becoming an "Egyptologist" isn't enough to understand the Book of Abraham. Just as the Book of Mormon is the Ethiopian perspective on Christ, the Book of Abraham is the Ethiopian perspective on Abraham. Both books were discovered in Ethiopia. You can debate this until you're blue in the face. I don't care if they give you 7 PhD's. This is the secret to understanding Mormon scripture. You can't begin to really understand the Book of Abraham until you realize this. You need to research Egypt's neighbor, Ethiopia. Ethiopia is where the Jews went. They didn't stay in Egypt.

[@YoungRainMaker]

Even chat GPT has programmed biases (left leaning) 😂

[@brucejensen3700]

Easy answer.: NO. It isn’t!!

[@lootingiv4058]

If the gold plates never existed, how did Joseph get numerous witnesses to stand by their stories until their dying day, even when some of them later became angry with joseph and left the church? How could Joseph have known about the ancient cement technology in the first century B.C. in mesoamerica? How could Joseph Smith make up dozens of names in the Book of Mormon that would later be shown to be authentic semetic names? Where did Joseph get the idea of ancient scripture written on metal plates? How did Joseph Smith know about ancient practices regarding preservations of sacred texts? Why do other ancient documents support the Book of Mormons idea that ancient Joseph prophesied of Moses and Aaron? If there was no apostasy in the Church of Jesus Christ, then what happened to the prophets? At a time when all Christian churches taught that temples were no longer needed how did Joseph so effectively restore the ancient temple concept on his own? If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow why are we the only ones with 12 apostles like it clearly was back then? Now for the fun part. Bible verses 😄 Ezekiel 37:16-17 talks about 2 "sticks" where Judah will write upon it and Joseph will write upon it. Why has nothing come up about what Joseph has written besides the book of mormon? It also says they will be joined together into one "stick" which is how we use the bible and BoM together. End of John 15 and beginning of John 16 it talks about how we will be hated for Christs name. However this could potentially be talking about all Christians in general which is true, But in our early church we were killed over it and it says that we will be killed over it. John 10:16 clearly talks about other people that he needs to bring the gospel to. (people of the BoM) Amos 3:7 talks about revelation but no "mormons" are crazy to think modern revelation can happen. 3 kingdoms of glory (plan of salvation) 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 Need for a restoration: Acts 3:19-21 Priesthood authority: Hebrews 5:4 (not scripture) but there was a study dont on the Book of Mormon using stylometry proving the BoM was written by multiple people and not one man. (Non LDS statistician that teamed up with BYU) Title:"On Verifying Wordprint Studies: Book of Mormon Authorship" Authors: John L. Hilton, et al. Published in: BYU Studies, Volume 30, number 3- Summer 1990 Bible verses that talk about works along with faith: James 2:14-26 Matthew 5:16 Mathew 7:21 Ephesians 2:10 Galatians 6:9-10 1 Corinthians 6:9 Revelation 14:13 Apostolic authority: Ephesians 2:19-20 Talks about us becoming Gods: John 10:34-36 2 Peter 1:4 1 John 3:2 John 17:20-21 Psalm 82 Ephesians 4:5 talks about how we should be one and not split off when we dislike what we heard (Not split off when we dislike something) Ephesians 2:20 talks about how his church will be built upon apostles and prophets with Christ being the chief cornerstone. Christ became exalted and wasn't always: Acts 2:30-33 Philippians 2:9 Acts 5:30-33 Luke 22:69 Mark 16:19 1 Peter 3:22 Ephesians 1:2 We can become like Christ: Romans 8:29-30 Revelation 3:21-22 Revelation 2:26-29 Psalm 82:1-8 John 10:32-35 Acts 17:29 Hebrews 12:9 Talks about preaching to the dead or baptisms for the dead: 1 Corinthians 15:29 1 Peter 3:18-20 1 Peter 4:5-6 Baptism is required: 1 Peter 3:21 Hebrews 11:32-40 states in verse 40 that they without us cannot be made perfect. Which means we can do work for the dead and they cant be made perfect and like Christ without us. Ezekiel 11:15-21 talks about how Israel will be scattered but will be gathered together. (who has more missionaries than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?) Jude 1:15 talks about how we will be judged for being ungodly Jude 1:18 talks about in the last days there will be mockers Jude 1:23 talks about how people will hate our idea of garments and mock us about it (yet garments are "CRAZY" to non LDS) Hebrews 7 talks about the Melchizedek Priesthood and how it is superior over the Aaronic priesthood (who has the Melchizedek and Aaronic Priesthood?) Hebrews 7:4 mentions patriarch which we have Hebrews 7:5 talks about paying tithes (to my knowledge Catholics do as well) Hebrews 7:26 mentions the position of High Priest 1 Peter 1:3 talks about how Christ is Heavenly Fathers son (Godhead) Acts 7:55 "and Jesus standing on the right hand of God" (somehow they are the same person!!) Isaiah 2:2-3 talks about how the Lords house will be built in the top of the mountains. Utah literally means "people of the mountains". That is where our church headquarters is and where the main temple (which is the house of the Lord) is. Malachi 3:1 and 4:5-6: "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts." "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." This prophesy was fulfilled April 3, 1836, when Elijah the prophet did come suddenly to the temple in Kirtland, Ohio, and bestowed the sealing keys of the priesthood to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Acts 3:22 says how "A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you." (sounds like he will raise up a prophet to me) Amos 8:11-12 talks about how there will be a famine in the land, but not a famine of bread or thirst but of the words of the Lord and anybody who seeks or searches for it will not find it. (pretty sure a restoration is needed then!!) Revelation 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame" Sounds like a need for garments in the last days for me. Revelation 22:16 (which is prophesy for the last days!!) "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." An angel will come and testify!!!! (MORONI) Restoration: Isaiah 11:11-12 Daniel 2:34-35, 44 Malachi 3: 1-3 Acts: 3:20-25 If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow why does no other church have the seventy besides LDS? Exodus 24:1,9 Numbers 11:16 Luke 10:1.17 Joel 2:28 says that a young man will see a vision (first vision!!) James 5:14-15 talks about Elders and how they will give blessings with oil (We do that!!) 😄😄😄

[@ApollonianShy18]

3:40

[@richardholmes5676]

One by the name of Paul Gregersen debunked the Egyptologists by presenting proper interpretation. Has anyone noticed that the anti-Mormons ignore comment on this?

[@lootingiv4058]

They ignore a lot of things. A bunch of the things I have gathered from my research from the bible and just some tricky questions they cant answer. It clearly supports the restored church over anything else (This isn't everything just a little bit) : If the gold plates never existed, how did Joseph get numerous witnesses to stand by their stories until their dying day, even when some of them later became angry with joseph and left the church? How could Joseph have known about the ancient cement technology in the first century B.C. in mesoamerica? How could Joseph Smith make up dozens of names in the Book of Mormon that would later be shown to be authentic semetic names? Where did Joseph get the idea of ancient scripture written on metal plates? How did Joseph Smith know about ancient practices regarding preservations of sacred texts? Why do other ancient documents support the Book of Mormons idea that ancient Joseph prophesied of Moses and Aaron? If there was no apostasy in the Church of Jesus Christ, then what happened to the prophets? At a time when all Christian churches taught that temples were no longer needed how did Joseph so effectively restore the ancient temple concept on his own? If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow why are we the only ones with 12 apostles like it clearly was back then? Now for the fun part. Bible verses 😄 Ezekiel 37:16-17 talks about 2 "sticks" where Judah will write upon it and Joseph will write upon it. Why has nothing come up about what Joseph has written besides the book of mormon? It also says they will be joined together into one "stick" which is how we use the bible and BoM together. End of John 15 and beginning of John 16 it talks about how we will be hated for Christs name. However this could potentially be talking about all Christians in general which is true, But in our early church we were killed over it and it says that we will be killed over it. John 10:16 clearly talks about other people that he needs to bring the gospel to. (people of the BoM) Amos 3:7 talks about revelation but no "mormons" are crazy to think modern revelation can happen. 3 kingdoms of glory (plan of salvation) 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 Need for a restoration: Acts 3:19-21 Priesthood authority: Hebrews 5:4 (not scripture) but there was a study dont on the Book of Mormon using stylometry proving the BoM was written by multiple people and not one man. (Non LDS statistician that teamed up with BYU) Title:"On Verifying Wordprint Studies: Book of Mormon Authorship" Authors: John L. Hilton, et al. Published in: BYU Studies, Volume 30, number 3- Summer 1990 Bible verses that talk about works along with faith: James 2:14-26 Matthew 5:16 Mathew 7:21 Ephesians 2:10 Galatians 6:9-10 1 Corinthians 6:9 Revelation 14:13 Apostolic authority: Ephesians 2:19-20 Talks about us becoming Gods: John 10:34-36 2 Peter 1:4 1 John 3:2 John 17:20-21 Psalm 82 Ephesians 4:5 talks about how we should be one and not split off when we dislike what we heard (Not split off when we dislike something) Ephesians 2:20 talks about how his church will be built upon apostles and prophets with Christ being the chief cornerstone. Christ became exalted and wasn't always: Acts 2:30-33 Philippians 2:9 Acts 5:30-33 Luke 22:69 Mark 16:19 1 Peter 3:22 Ephesians 1:2 We can become like Christ: Romans 8:29-30 Revelation 3:21-22 Revelation 2:26-29 Psalm 82:1-8 John 10:32-35 Acts 17:29 Hebrews 12:9 Talks about preaching to the dead or baptisms for the dead: 1 Corinthians 15:29 1 Peter 3:18-20 1 Peter 4:5-6 Baptism is required: 1 Peter 3:21 Hebrews 11:32-40 states in verse 40 that they without us cannot be made perfect. Which means we can do work for the dead and they cant be made perfect and like Christ without us. Ezekiel 11:15-21 talks about how Israel will be scattered but will be gathered together. (who has more missionaries than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?) Jude 1:15 talks about how we will be judged for being ungodly Jude 1:18 talks about in the last days there will be mockers Jude 1:23 talks about how people will hate our idea of garments and mock us about it (yet garments are "CRAZY" to non LDS) Hebrews 7 talks about the Melchizedek Priesthood and how it is superior over the Aaronic priesthood (who has the Melchizedek and Aaronic Priesthood?) Hebrews 7:4 mentions patriarch which we have Hebrews 7:5 talks about paying tithes (to my knowledge Catholics do as well) Hebrews 7:26 mentions the position of High Priest 1 Peter 1:3 talks about how Christ is Heavenly Fathers son (Godhead) Acts 7:55 "and Jesus standing on the right hand of God" (somehow they are the same person!!) Isaiah 2:2-3 talks about how the Lords house will be built in the top of the mountains. Utah literally means "people of the mountains". That is where our church headquarters is and where the main temple (which is the house of the Lord) is. Malachi 3:1 and 4:5-6: "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts." "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." This prophesy was fulfilled April 3, 1836, when Elijah the prophet did come suddenly to the temple in Kirtland, Ohio, and bestowed the sealing keys of the priesthood to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Acts 3:22 says how "A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you." (sounds like he will raise up a prophet to me) Amos 8:11-12 talks about how there will be a famine in the land, but not a famine of bread or thirst but of the words of the Lord and anybody who seeks or searches for it will not find it. (pretty sure a restoration is needed then!!) Revelation 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame" Sounds like a need for garments in the last days for me. Revelation 22:16 (which is prophesy for the last days!!) "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." An angel will come and testify!!!! (MORONI) Restoration: Isaiah 11:11-12 Daniel 2:34-35, 44 Malachi 3: 1-3 Acts: 3:20-25 If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow why does no other church have the seventy besides LDS? Exodus 24:1,9 Numbers 11:16 Luke 10:1.17 Joel 2:28 says that a young man will see a vision (first vision!!) James 5:14-15 talks about Elders and how they will give blessings with oil (We do that!!) 😄😄😄

[@MRRANDOMZ11]

Amazing 👀

[@stevef1748]

Lol! I’d take the foremost expert on Egyptology, Dr Robert Ritner, and his absolute evisceration of apologetics over Gregersen every day and twice on Sunday. It’s laughable that you even brought him up.

[@richardholmes5676]

​@@stevef1748Lol? I wouldn't be laughing. As your solid claim is the Egyptian fertility god Min with an erect penis is correct interpretation.

[@Goobersnobber47]

You seem to ignore the fact that there hasn’t been a prophet since Joseph Smith that has used the seer stones Joseph used to translate the BOM and BOA and receive the revelation of the word of wisdom. I know it’s hard at first but eventually you may be able to accept that magic rocks aren’t real and you can’t use them to translate things.

[@heberfrank8664]

I have studied the BoA and determined that the Jehovah that spoke to Abraham was not Jesus. Instead, he was the LORD that said: Whom shall I send? And He chose Jesus over Lucifer. (Abraham 3:27). The resurrected Jesus speaks as Jehovah, and is the Jehovah for this earth, and that confused believers into thinking Jesus as a Spirit that had never overcame the world was the creation and OT Jehovah.

[@adambeck369]

Occam's razor Joseph smith said he translated an historical text We have said historical text The "translation" is wildly incorrect You can either take 18 minutes doing mental gymnastics or you can come to the simple, logical conclusion that he was lying and move on.