The TRUTH behind MARVEL's Pixel F***ing of VFX Artists

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Awards, money, and success have been achieved on the backs of VFX artists, especially in the last decade. Unfortunately, there is an imbalance in the share of profit that has tanked many VFX houses and left over-worked and underpaid VFX artists burnt out.
Starting with this video, we are releasing some videos to spotlight this imbalance and pay tribute to some of the great VFX houses that were lost because of this. So keep a look out for our new "BANKRUPT" series featuring the work and stories of these companies that helped win awards for the industry that doesn't seem to care about them.
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🖥️Editor: John Owens
✏️Writer: Elwood | John Owens | Cheecken
📚Researcher: John Owens | Elwood | Cheecken
🖼️Thumbnail Squad: Tim LaPointe | Jeyycie | Cheecken | Jordie | DVS
🤖A.I. Programs Used: NONE
⭐️⭐️⭐️
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0:00 Why does Hollywood HATE VFX artist
1:20 Life as an artist is complicated...
2:18 UNDERSTANDING VFX Specialization
4:00 THE VFX world used to be MUCH smaller (example: Tron)
5:56 Westworld (1973)
6:49 The difference between early VFX and VFX today
8:12 Pixel F****g digital artists
10:03 Understanding why VFX changes by studios are burning out vfx artists
11:16 VFX crews are treated differently
11:52 Life of Pi: Ryhthm & Hues Scandal
14:01 How does the industry fix these conditions?
14:40 The industry worth over $100 Billion might implode
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#vfx #vfxartists #FrameVoyager

[@FrameVoyager]

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[@0ooTheMAXXoo0]

Constantne still looks flawless. The objects and people in space shots in 2001 are still the best of its kind, no one gas done as good a job since then... Rogue One stands put as maybe the only major movie where the mastering and FX were done in 4k. Even on a 1080p projector, the space ships looked extra sharp, no other movie looks like that by far...

[@anthonylosego]

Perfect solution... just get an AI to make it 100x faster and way more cool looking. Problem solved. VFX artists will never get messed over again. Just the one time.

[@eMallard]

@@anthonylosego hope that’s sarcasm 🙏

[@ll7868]

I like Chad Stahelski's stuff, the CGI and practical effects are seamless, you can't tell them apart. You would think they used CGI for the vampire contortions in Day Shift but those were real contortionists bending in inhuman ways and played in reverse. I was sure it was CGI, that looked impossible for a real human.

[@ll7868]

And Extraction & Extraction 2 directed by Sam Hargrave. In E2 that whole sequence of the helicopters landing on a moving train was practical, everything else was CGI. Watch that sequence and you would be easily fooled into thinking the exact opposite. They even had to do the landing a few times because the pilot did it so well it looked fake so they had him fly a bit more choppy to look real because it was real.

[@mattcy6591]

It still blows my mind how the CGI in District 9 is still virtually unmatched even today.

[@FrameVoyager]

District 9 is underrated

[@moondawwg]

District 9 deserves all the recognition that for whatever reason Avatar gets.

[@loganw6156]

Blomkamp has a lengthy VFX background and shoots shots that contextualizes the vfx and knows how to shoot them and approve them

[@symbolsarenotreality4595]

@@moondawwg dont bring your pathetic hatred of avatar into this, completely irrelevant. The reality is that money is the bottom line and this is why CGI has become shit just like gaming over the years. They ask too much and have impossible deadlines.

[@Igoreshkin]

Last week I watched Starship Troopers. I was shocked how good arachnids looks even today(starships in space not so well).

[@TomMorterLaing]

This isn't just Hollywood, it's the entire industry. People in post production are viewed as lackeys who should be given £1 to "just" get it done. The fact that editing was removed from the televised bit of the oscars says a lot about people's lack of understanding of how crucial it is to the production.

[@FrameVoyager]

Exactly! I mean just look at the writers strike. Greedy corporations who like paying themselves exorbitant bonuses but won't pay creatives who fuel their product

[@randomvideoboy1]

@@FrameVoyager That is literally the exact opposite of what he meant. Writers and Producers are the ones who doesn't appreciate VFX artists' work. American writers keep ruining everything because of their arrogance. Just look at Witcher and Halo, the writers think they can do better than the source material, so they add changes to make them "better".

[@00Herobrine]

@@randomvideoboy1 what, so two types of people can't be suffering at the same time?

[@fatallyfatcat5274]

And it shows. Modern movies suck.

[@harrylane4]

@@randomvideoboy1 writing not being faithful to the source material has literally nothing to do with vfx artists lmao Besides who do you think hired the writers lmao

[@didiersarchi139]

Unions are essential for VFX workers! Thank you for standing up with workers. I know many don't want to rock the boat but it's only right we speak up.

[@jackphoton]

We tried about 10years ago, led by VFX Soldier and even with support of Scott Ross, the hundred-thousand plus dollars was raised to hire lawyers to study a union and their findings were it was not economically feasible and our best bet was to join with the animators union. IATSE Stereo D is one of the worst possible offenders as far as crushing artists into the ground with 80+ hour mandatory work weeks running three or four features through their pipeline at once and while they boast of the double-time pay, the base pay is a third less than standard so it's only when you work 80+ hours that you earn what would be your normal pay anywhere else. Nightmare. As to bankrupted vfx companies, Rhythm and Hues was a prime example of how to destroy a company. Digital Domain, never once earned profit in their existence at least up to the Platinum Dunes buy out in '06 when i stopped working there. And hey all, part of the negotiation process the production studios pull is to throw the end credits in the mix. You want to list all your peeps then you gotta take less oney for the added frames at the end of the film. That's why so many companies you'll see 2 or 3 names when in fact there were dozens. Stereo D offered screen credit as a bonus award to those who crunched the most frames on a project. And then IMDB will fight you on getting credits listed. Nightmare.

[@GazzaBoo]

Speak up, yes, but try not to get outsourced.

[@jackphoton]

@@GazzaBoo Squeekey wheels are not fixed, they are not rehired and thus phased out entirely leaving the problem in place.

[@super8mmo]

Unions do not work.

[@ge2719]

Except the problem is studios accepting low payments for the work they do. If the boss of a company accepts an amount that wont make the company money then they go bakrupt. The workers all will have gotten paid though, mostly. The issue is they feel they uave to put in low offers on jobs because a different studio in another country might put in a low bid too. Vfx studios can be pretty easily outsources anywhere in the world. So an union would have to be a world wide union. Which will never happen. And even if it did unions dont work. They just suck money out of an industry and then abuse their power to ruin any company that doesnt do what they say. Try setup a new vfx studio in a place that has a vfx union. No studio will hire you unless you are part of the union because they will have rules saying any studio hires a non union vfx studio then they get blacklisted. Just like the writers union, and all the other unions hollywood has created. They ruin the industry for anyone who isnt a massive company already. And anyone producing an independant film who cant afford to hire their bs union workers wont be allowed in festivals, wont be allowed in movie theaters, wont be allowed to advertise, wont be allowed to use any of the third party businesses required to have a successful movie, because the unions have all abused their power.

[@leokimvideo]

99% of the problems can be seeded back to poor storyboards and poor early visual animatics. A film is only ever as good as the initial direction it starts to take. The big problems always evolve from the idea it can be fixed later on when it should have been cemented by a good storyboards and breakdown of requirements for each shot. Sadly what's going on now is low paid VFX artists are having to do the impossible in zero time to meet a deadline.

[@addy5572]

Cause the budgets for these things have absolutely ballooned. You save money by shortening production time even if end product is crap

[@ivanm3342]

I cant wrap my head around how so many gigantic movies that cost millions of dollars and employ hundreds or thousands of people start with a horrible friggin script that makes no sense and has terrible dialogue…

[@handled4787]

“A film is only ever as good as the initial direction it starts to take” is just wrong

[@Patrick-857]

Yeah they are making it up during production and we must not forget how toxic top brass are, the people who are entirely money focused and know nothing about creative work. The days of great directors and producers are over.

[@DavidCameronFilms]

As a VFX manager at MPC in 2012 our team shared the Academy Award with Rhythm & Hues for Life of Pi. They did the animals, we did the ocean and boats. I got to hold the Oscar in our office. And as a savvy self-promoting creative, I made the papers and TV news back home for my efforts. But like R&H, MPC went under as well (many years later) through the regrettable process of underbidding. A race to the bottom! Along with Scott Ross, I tried to warn everyone of this ten years ago, but here we are...

[@FrameVoyager]

Yeah... It's a major issue now. And the union isn't there to try and protect vfx workers from some AI stuff either like the WGA is trying to do.

[@StephenFord]

I couldn't believe that moment at the Oscars when Bill gets played off by the Jaws theme as if the shark of Hollywood was bearing down telling him to shut up after losing everything.

[@FrameVoyager]

It was CRAZY. Even this year the same thing with the Avatar VFX team lol

[@WhiteManBehindADesk]

Good luck to the unionising VFX artists! They are such a crucial part of contemporary film-making and so pushed and exploited.

[@matthewduvall9941]

As someone who loved VFX but left (for computational photography!) after it broke my heart and soul, thank you for creating this cohesive and entertaining report. I just so happen to be a huge fan of your abandoned camera series so this was delightful to see pop up!

[@BobbyGeneric145]

What is computational photography

[@matthewduvall9941]

@@BobbyGeneric145 image processing to achieve results (and effects) otherwise impossible. Night vision, hdr and post depth of field on phones are great consumer examples. My jam is light field imaging, I worked at Lytro on the project for AR/VR, but here is a video I made a few years ago exploring some of the abilities it would have in compositing: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bYa4eHSdqq2VZ5I

[@FrameVoyager]

No problem! Trying to find areas in the industry that need to be spotlighted.

[@ViralKiller]

I worked for MPC etc until 2012 then quit...never mix your hobbies with work....now I do it as a hobby I love it again

[@juz882010]

so you learn't SD well done LOL

[@jamieknight326]

As a teenager I was just starting down the path of working in a cinema as a projectionist while I studied VFX when the cinema manager took me aside and warned me off. He basically told me the industry was abusive and I should focus on my coding skills instead. I took his advice and built my career in software development. These days its gone full circle as I do game stuff which is a bit of both. I always wonder what might have been. Videos like this make me think he gave me a good steer. This is one of the reasons young people need an opportunity to meet folks in different industries beyond a career fair or the advice of teachers etc. Thanks for making this video. I hope the situation improves in the future.

[@FrameVoyager]

No problem! Hoping the industry works this out or no one will really want to do VFX work in the future.

[@arthurpendragon8192]

@@FrameVoyager if no one wants to do VFX work in the future it will be a huge price to pay for hollywood. It benefits more people if they can unionize and be protected from the abusers

[@juz882010]

I know Pipeline Dev's on 300k a year cause without them the studio cant work

[@ViralKiller]

There was an amazing time to be a VFX artist and get paid 200k a year. It was 1991-1996 when a Silicon Graphics Indigo workstation cost 50k

[@fkdump]

Artists "love" of art creation is being used to treat them badly. You rarely see that happens in other industries. When you see the job description saying they are looking for employees that breath and live with art...etc. it means you will most likely be underpaid. Stop showing your love and passion to art creation. It needs to be presented as a boring tedious profession that require strict well trained skills. We rarely see accountants doctors lawyers dentists plumbers contractors saying they love their jobs and don't mind doing it for less, on the contrary they might actually do very little by charging high price.

[@AndrewZeletrainStudios]

VFX artist here. A union would be great and help prevent burnout, but it opens the door even wider for studios to outsource which is already a big issue when it comes to getting consistent clients.

[@FrameVoyager]

True! It's not the only solution that needs to be figured out. Studios should be looking to hire talent and pay them well. They already make plenty of money. But totally understand your point

[@jackphoton]

@@FrameVoyager Yeah, I mentioned in another comment just now on how you didn't speak to the component of overseas outsourcing, their lower wages and expectations compared to our local wages and expectations. i.e $30/hour compared to $30 week and so on. Nor mention on the film schools churning fresh meat into the system ever 6 months trained on the latest patches and techniques willing to work 30 hoursa day for half standard rates driving eveyone else's wages down and expectations up. nightmare stuff.

[@FrameVoyager]

@@jackphoton fair! We might circle back on this one. For some reason this video died at release and has started to take off here this week 😅 actually... You interested in doing a podcast? Would be cool to talk about your experience in the industry and some of the things we missed

[@thenout]

Yeah, well… there's still only so many overseas production outlets. In my experience, you outsource roto and tracking / matchmoving to India, but the quality of the work is not up to snuff. There's just too many juniors in the mix, and their work has to be cleaned up in the end anyhow. I expect that if more and more vfx are outsourced, the studios will find themselves in just another pickle. In the end you need reliability, which then (hopefully) beats turn-around.

[@jackphoton]

@@thenout Yeah, I mentioned in another post how you can tell them to fix A, B and C and the work you;ll get back fixes A a little ignores B, makes C worse and screws up D which then all gets fixed locally or kicked back until the next ingest. This has been going on over 15yrs now, it won't stop.

[@kennethwong9452]

One of the few times VFX artists got compensated was when Keanu Reeves gave a portion of his salary to them on The Matrix.

[@logansymmes2193]

I’m so glad that GOTG Vol. 3 looks amazing. You can tell that James didn’t overwork or rush the artists.

[@FrameVoyager]

EXACTLY

[@andrihusainsudra]

not a fan of GOTG 3 but yes the VFX was amazing!

[@sonidojamon]

So happy you're putting this in the spotlight!

[@CNC-Time-Lapse]

Great video! There are so many VFX and production companies that are defunct now. This would be a great series to go over the legacy of these companies. Brings back memories of watching TV shows like Movie Magic.

[@gloriathomas3245]

Where do you get the idea that many VFX and production companies are defunct? If they are defunct then its obvious is due the fact they have a difficulty getting contracts from studios or merged/absorbed by another VFX company. For the record, Digital Domain, Weta and ILM are the big 3 VFX studios are moment. It helps to realize these days multiple studios are working on single project.

[@CNC-Time-Lapse]

@@gloriathomas3245 Sorry, I should have clarified. I wasn't referring to why they are now defuncted, but rather referring to highlighting their accomplishments when they were around. Obviously, the reasons why so many are closed vary and as you mentioned, many simply due to the lack of contracts. Shoot, Tippett Studio closed due to COVID and the slow down in the industry surrounding COVID. That's just one example, but I think a series spotlighting these companies would be a nice sendoff in recognition for their accomplishments. Gone but not forgotten.

[@FrameVoyager]

Appreciate it!

[@joelonsdale]

When I heard that Marvel Avengers actors didn't wear helmets for the time-travelling scene, I thought, "wow, CGI must be bloody cheap!". And when you see the list of Indian and Chinese names at the end your realise they are farming a lot of the work out to the lowest quote, which inevitably means abroad.

[@FrameVoyager]

yeah... In the U.S. everything always seems to be created on the backs of cheap labor.

[@joelonsdale]

@@FrameVoyager Same in the UK.

[@MassimoTava]

They should be able to sell all the assets from the movie to game creators.

[@FrameVoyager]

For real!

[@billyoung9538]

I can tell you from personal experience working on a film to game conversion this isn't always as easy as one might think. There are so many hurdles in movie to game translations, Actors & their contracts not stating their likeness can be used in a game, Lawyers, Multiple management "opinions" on asset sharing from Movie studios, game studios & subcontractors that getting a specific asset from one area to the other before a game release date deadline might be impractical. Thus different assets are sometimes the easier solution.

[@azv343]

Vfx studios will have lidar scans of the dressed sets and even offer them to the actual film studio for preservation, sequels or like you said, videogames, but the movie studio will turn it down and ask for the assets to be deleted under threat of a lawsuit. There is a palpable disdain for vfx from the movie studios, movie directors and even set crews, they always bash vfx but constantly and desperately ask the vfx team to save their ass to fix shit they didn't do their homework on.

[@3Diana]

that doesn't work for multiple reasons but one of the main ones is that games and film do not use the same types of assets. the assets in games quite literally need to be "game ready" which means they need to be optimized in order for your game to run, movies on the other hand don't "run", they're rendered and then the final picture is seen in video format. converting these assets can be so painful, it's often much easier to just make them from scratch.

[@henryfield2153]

Although this is definitely true - it is generally faster to remesh a cinema asset (or even remodel from scratch using it as a perfect reference) than to start completely from scratch. These cinema rigs additionally only require small modification for use in games

[@VALENTINEproductions]

VFX ans STUNTS: The two essential teams to films especially these days that dont get half the credit they deserve.

[@FrameVoyager]

Absolutely

[@TheKorgborg]

But isn't this proof the modern movie producers don't understand what they are actually making, And what it actually take's to get a good products

[@roellemaire1979]

It used to be: We have a great idea, lets make a movie about it. Now it's: We need to make a movie, it has to be done in 6 months, anybody have any ideas?

[@TheKorgborg]

@@roellemaire1979 I think people capitalism makes people cowards. Only sure bets. Nothing news. Ow spider man make's money. Lets make spider man, This world is all about, How to make most money with least effort

[@RealLaone]

Glad someone is speaking on this. They probably think people push buttons on a computer and things happen on their own. This could be one reason most VFX is dumbed down for most project going with nano particles that come out of nowhere instead of taking the time to create something that looks and feels practical, because time is not on their side and the money is little to nothing.

[@magnuskallas]

The reality is modern Disney and Marvel movies are effing useless. "Particles". The CGI is so bad anyone with common sense subconsciously vomits the product. I don't get how we got here, braindead fanboy Gen-Z directing the market or vice-versa? And add the woke of modern effing audiences... The audacity to call the formula an "audience".

[@annekedebruyn7797]

People have been talking about unionizing for close to two decades now. Mainly due to Asian country breathing into necks of artists in the west due to cheap labor. Something no other part in he filmmaking industry has to deal with. I'd love a union but it will take a lot of time to convince everyone.

[@JaapGinder]

Agree. VFX isartwork! They must unite! VFX work is very underrated, but is at the end the most important part of the movie, today.

[@FrameVoyager]

It really is! And it's such a cool art form

[@canyildiz5966]

Vfx artists need to unionise as wide as they can and have a general strike. Then they will have to listen

[@FrameVoyager]

That's the hope!

[@RM_VFX]

When I started in computer graphics, I had to type the location and color of pixels drawn on paper into rows of code one by one. Now I'm using Unreal Engine and AI tools on films. As things have gotten easier, they pile more expectations on us to be done in the same amount of time. I never thought I'd be looking forward to retirement, but the closer it gets the better it looks. But I'll still be messing around with images as long as I can still see and hold a mouse.

[@8lec_R]

I remember seeing a similar video a while earlier. I hope the VFX artists get to make art in better conditions

[@FrameVoyager]

Same! Probably will take a while but we should still discuss it

[@8lec_R]

@@FrameVoyager oh for sure. Same goes for the games industry, very very overworked and underpaid. I hope there's some unionisation in the 2 industries to help reduce these issues.

[@TimeIsMine93]

When you spend days rendering something out that you’ve worked for weeks on, only realize it doesn’t really fit… sucks. I can’t imagine Disney breathing down my neck, not even knowing if a shot gets approved

[@FrameVoyager]

That would drive me crazy

[@theminecraft4202]

alot of these problems is why pre-vis and pre-production is incredibly important and something many, many directors and studios completely overlook and film with a "fix it in post" mindset

[@tapje_]

I’m studying vfx for a 4 year degree. Thank you for this, I’m very worried for after my studies with the insane amount of work + little pay

[@FrameVoyager]

Well I think it's just good to be aware of. You can spot some warning signs early on with prospective employers maybe or be part of the change.

[@ViralKiller]

Here's a little highlight from my design contract today "Please make it look like the side view, I like the line flows" Me: "But the camera is pushing in along the z-axis, so it's not going to look like that...it's geometrically impossible in space time "

[@FrameVoyager]

geesh... Any interest in joining us for a podcast or a video to talk about working in the VFX industry and some of the problems?

[@therealfilmnerd]

Films nowadays are nothing without vfx, yet they get so little recognition

[@eformance]

I had no idea that Sean Gunn was the mocap artist for Rocket Racoon until now. I wonder if he got paid double, or 3/4 for being an actor and mocap artist?

[@agnik1031]

People honestly seem to think that to make something on a computer you press one button, the machine goes beep-boop, and then a fully formed product springs forth Athena-like. That's how VFX artists get burned out, directors get mad, viewers get half-baked crap and the executives make bank anyway. Infuriating.

[@endaoconnor]

I have worked in VFX for almost 15 years and while it has had a few high points, getting nominated for awards etc. it is not worth the mental stress. Nothing quite like working crazy hours on a project for a director or producer last minute to request a change that unravels your weeks of work.

[@FrameVoyager]

I can imagine!

[@ViralKiller]

It's a different kind of time pressure people don't understand. For example, if I pressured you to draw 20 trees quickly, you will feel maybe a little stressed, but the task if pretty linear and repetitive. The pressure us VFX people have to face is kind of like: "solve this very complicated fluid dynamics equation in 20 minutes"...it just puts the brain under maximum stress possible, to the point where it feels like you sometimes leave your body

[@klatchabobby]

As much as I would want to work in VFX once I leave school, I won’t unless these conditions see major changes. All I hear are horror stories and I have no interest in enduring that right now

[@itsdanielcurran]

I hear ya! Commercial rout may not be as glorified but can be very fulfilling and often more balanced! We need more VFX artists like you in the commercial world as it takes on more tricks from Hollywood.

[@Frontigenics]

@@itsdanielcurran yep, I get 55/hour non-union doing commercial VFX work. And it's very fairly easy for me. You can then do movies and bigger stuff on your own time.

[@jackphoton]

Aspects not spoken about in this video are that the film/vfx schools Dave in Florida, VFX-whatever Vancouver, Gnomen here in L.A. and so on are that they are churning fresh meat into the system every six months like clockwork. New recruits are young, eager and willing to work sub-standrad wages for more hours in a day just 'to get in'. Being trained on the latest software patches and newest techniques, they undermine even those who got in not six months earlier on the previous wave with that little bit of edge. With lowered wages and higher expectations from local workers, let's go overseas where they can be paid $30-$50 a week compared to an hour and they have no pressure. They are new and learning, so also face reduced pressure on results. If I screw up, I have several supes on me within minutes. If they screw up, the work gets kicked back for next week's ingest. We then have to QC their work. So we say fix A, B and leave C alone. They make A worse, ignore B and C and mess with D which was fine and now needs to be 'unfixed' back to the way it was. Gigs can be as little as one afternoon or as long as years. One day to one week is most common unless you land at a desperate small house who happens to need what you can provide. The big houses fire all the plebians that do the actual labor (while retaining the high-paid overlords) who then migrate to the next big house and the next feature. All these big houses then have to spend time re-training new people and the old returning on the new pipeline. It's a nightmare in every possible way. higher expectations, faster turn-around and less budget with more unreasonable demands than ever. AI will simultaneously make this all better and much much worse. While AI will expediate the measley stuff, throwing lower end workers on the street, AI will increase expectations beyond human reason and ability in all-too-quick an order.

[@fersuvious]

@@jackphoton haha damn dude! You paint a bleak picture. But I don’t disagree with a lot of your points. I work here in Vancouver and there’s definitely a lot of moaning about the way things are going.

[@jackphoton]

@@fersuvious I spent a year at VFS, 2004/5, lived down Georgia a block from Stanley. What an incredible, beautiful city. My experience at VFS I discovered that Canada specifically prefers not to have Americans in their work force; Brits were welcome to stay as long as they desired whether unemployed or not; while a korean student who was in fact a highly skilled teacher back home had a local job before he graduated. Employers are req'd to back foreigner's visas with a one year job guarantee, so are are unwilling to take the risk on any except the top possible cream of the crop. Had I known all that, i would have come straight to LA and had a job in months, minus the debt of a student loan. Everything i came out of VFS knowing, I pretty much knew already though the experience of another country for a year was valuable.

[@hatednyc]

Oh my god…there is SO MUCH WORK PUT INTO THIS! Kudos to those who do this work.

[@joseph7858]

Thank you John! I knew it was bad, but had no idea of the heartship of the artists. Yes, please do unionizse and stand in for your craft! 😊

[@Stasiek_Zabojca]

Awesome and sad at the same time, "abandoned VFX studios" is coming 😏 It's sou cool you brought it into our attention, I had no idea that it's that bad... I even had no idea, that it was not good 😞

[@allygraceb5124]

Have a friend who is an VFX artist. These working conditions are exactly along the lines that she describes

[@Veptis]

I focus my thesis on "creative programming" which is shadercode, essentially computer graphics used in games and CGI. So maybe I am part of that as well.

[@mxrclxst]

the problem isn't VFX. VFX is the symptom. The problem are the production companies and directors who choose what to fund, how to fund it, and how much work is exchanged for the funds.

[@FrameVoyager]

Oh totally agree.

[@Tofh40]

5 months later, Marvel's VFX artist vote to unionize! IT'S HAPPEEEEEENIIING!!

[@TheBStylez]

as a vfx artist. its all so tiring

[@IamJohnnyFan]

Thank you for creating this and bringing this to light!!

[@bigboss9150]

The fact that Hollywood, who acts as the champions of morality is treating the most important aspect of blockbuster cinema (VFX artists) like slaves is disgusting. No Iron Man without RDJ? Nah, fuck RDJ. No Iron Man without VFX. None of those superhero movies would work without the VFX artists. How are they not the most powerful department in each project is beyond me.

[@FrameVoyager]

Yeah, it's going to come back to bite them eventually. Just plain stupid

[@ecupcakes2735]

FINALLY a video that does the VFX world justice. So many talented people in this industry get crazy sidelined! thank you for making this video. We appreciate you!

[@FrameVoyager]

You're welcome!.

[@BitterSweetUniverse]

I'm sending this to anyone that hires me for future projects.

[@Alice.59]

12:14 how funny that when you say "quality production" it's fast and furious that show on screen🤣

[@FrameVoyager]

Oh god... did I do that? 👀

[@ViralKiller]

'Unionize' basically means that you need to strike when the order is given from above...dont see it happening for VFX

[@peffken8834]

Thanks for the insight. Knowing the process and the way of working to realize complex VFX shots, I ask myself every time I see current productions, how can this complex amount of VFX shots be managed? I also think it is always the others who collect the laurels than those who let others shine. Having ideas is one thing, but implementing them all too often requires people who don't happen.

[@jackphoton]

9:00 Wow. not over 64+ hours for six months? Stereo D, mandatory 84 hours for four months, that's 12hrs for 7 days a week, plus a 2+hour in L.A. traffic driving under 20 miles distance, plus 2+ hour mandatory meal breaks. Getting home under 17 hours was a blessing. Several hours to unwind, see my wife asleep when I got home and asleep when I left that same morning I'd gotten home. NIGHTMARE!

[@FrameVoyager]

Damnnmn, that's crazy 💀

[@jackphoton]

@@FrameVoyager Four months was as long as I lasted doing it and primary reason for my burnout. There were older guys there who were doing a 100 hour weeks for years, puling near $200k for their reduced lifespan from stress, bad eating, sedentary life. There was also fresh meat planning to do it for x amount of time to pay their loans off, get lots of film creds and move on up to their next goal. Most peeps there were slogging for a job, any job as Stereo D is always hiring as they have continuous burn out rates. 84+ hour weeks are standard normal operations for them. I was last there during the Iron Man 3, whatever Trek film that year as well as the Wolverine silver samurai flick and a few others, some of which IMDB refused to give me credit for. Hilarious.

[@FrameVoyager]

@@jackphoton geesh, yeah starting to see even more why many go and do their own thing.

[@jackphoton]

@@FrameVoyager And as to going independent or small studio, the Supes get fed up with the dimunition they get from the top, gather several of their best hires over the years (barring non-compete clauses and such) and rent a space. Some last a few projects and stall out. Others catch a wave and go for years, while even a few still land themselves in the minor leagues with regular staff and 'global' operations given the new zoom era of work where we now get no compensation for our personal computer usage (which is likely to require snooping software to monitor work performance is my guess.). nor the added electricity costs, etc. Those all being offloaded from the vfx houses. Its' funny as a major leak during the first Wolverine movie had Major Studio lawyers in all the vfx houses big and small locking down their external comms such that at one shop we were given ipads to surf, rather than the work machine. And of course, no usbs for playing music on the work machine, etc.

[@jackphoton]

And independent means scrounging for yourself an afternoon gig here, a day job there, a continuous hustle for unsteady work leads to no money for downtimes and no freedom to spend during uptimes for the valleys ahead.

[@AndreaFasani]

When enough people to make a small city work for a single movie but only a person with an inflated ego takes the credit on the stage.

[@FrameVoyager]

Dang Auteur theory

[@attemptityourself5662]

I like how every labor related video across just about any profession essentially boils down to "theyre working harder than ever to make companies more profit than ever while getting paid less". What a coincidence 🧐

[@Patrick-857]

2023 had the record number of flops with massive budgets. Hollywood is in trouble. It's rotten to the core, and has the wrong people in charge. These budgets may be massive, but the movies don't really make money anymore, even the ones that supposedly make money, because the production cost doesn't include all the promo ect. A lot of this is dumb, knee-jerk executives who don't want to take risks. Not creative people. The movies becoming woke trash, and being carefully designed not to annoy the Chinese government are also symptoms of this. They are often two contradictory things fighting for dominance over the storyline, both are detrimental to a good story, and both are caused by people at the top seeing them as "safe". I think they genuinely think this is how you appeal to a mass market. Well in the case of China, yeah that is how you do it, except that you can't be CCP friendly and woke friendly, when the CCP doesn't like woke. And most normal people don't want either thing, they just want a good story, which Hollywood has forgotten how to do. The VFX being bad can be forgiven if the story is good. But now amount of great special effects in post can save a bad movie that was a bad idea from the outset. And a great idea can be turned to trash really fast by top brass trying to avoid risks and insert their own ideological bias into it. There's no saving this. Increasingly good movies will come from outside of Hollywood, and eventually Hollywood will be no more I think. It's an environment that's driving creative people out really fast.

[@kevinsupreme_ph36yearsago59]

So that's why avatar 2 looks so photorealistic while mcu movies look like video games.

[@FrameVoyager]

Yeah, because James Cameron actually cares about the art behind it

[@dhexdev7417]

Power is in the studios. They should agree a base price per minute that wont get them broke and provides a fair pay to the artists, and then on top of that add extras for their perceived quality, value and experience.

[@icyjaam]

Thank you for bringing this topic up, I really love vfx and want to make a career into this, but given how the industry works, I am scared.

[@fersuvious]

Don’t be scared. If you’re good at what you do and willing to work hard, you’ll do well. Chase that dream! (That being said, I do agree with a lot of the points the video brought up.) Source: I’m a lighter/compositor.

[@aaronwhatson]

Really enjoyed this video you hit all the great points I was stunned when I found out VFX artists arent paid for re works that is illegal and if not definitely should be

[@aliensoup2420]

The effects studio is not paid for rework - they bid the show and contracted to do the work for a set cost. The individual artist is paid by the hour so they are always compensated for their time, even if they do the shot over 100 times. The studio gets shafted for the extra work, not the artist. But ultimately, if the studio goes bankrupt, the artist loses a job as well.

[@jamieknight326]

That advert read was smooth a heck. Nicely done :)

[@thenout]

That’s the reason i only work for commercials. We face some of the same issues, but at the end of the day, it is understood that the deadline (which is mostly arbitrary and only set by the advertising agency to look good in front of the client) does not allow for extravagant re-working. I have two of the major german vfx houses just down my street, but i'd never set foot in them. The stories i hear are just too alarming.

[@Nick_Lavigne]

To produce, meaning getting to pre-production yes it can be multi-year, but in terms of the actual production you have very little time. only exceedingly rarely will you get a "long" preproduction (3 months+) "long" shooting (more than a month), and post (more than 5 months). Gone are the days of a year of Pre&post and a good uncompressed multi-month shooting schedule.

[@adriennecode]

I work in the production design department. We create all the front end art before it goes to VFX. For example, creating a boat set before VFX goes in and creates a "kraken" to destroy it. I'm happy to report people in my line of work are slowly starting to learn the basics of VFX, especially now that volume stages are becoming a thing. Hopefully this will result in a better understanding, easier work flow, and less stress for VFX later down the pipeline. And maybe we can help stick up for VFX when the above the line asks for something unreasonable.

[@StephGV2]

We could have had a union. But the early VFX programmers in the 90s (many from Brigham Young University in Utah) were militant Libertarians who believed in absolute meritocracy who had visions of them pulling the weight of undeserving lazy programmers and...GASP!...artists. And if you don't have a union in Hollywood, you are a powerless serf begging for exploitation. The moment of power passed as anti-union schools began to crank out VFX artists in bulk quantities around 2000. In the hierarchy of Hollywood, VFX artists are below caterers, production interns, drivers and actor's assistants thanks to those early CGI VFX "pioneers".

[@FrameVoyager]

Wish you could tell that to the people in here calling me a communist because I suggested Unions lol. Totally agree with you. While Union's are not perfect, you can't just wait for businesses or the govt. to help out workers.

[@StephGV2]

@@FrameVoyager I'm sure it's the same kind of people. Especially the ones that think they'll be young forever in a business that's totally Logan's Run. You don't see a lot of grey hairs with families in VFX and games.

[@KatsudonArt]

They can learn on how the filmakers work with the VFX artists in Dredd. They included the VFX artist from day 1 of shooting, to editing and treat VFX artists as equals. That movie is a masterpiece.

[@korvusfilms1]

Absolutely agree, an underrated gem that should get more attention

[@thumbwarriordx]

The thing is you can do a general purpose scene and assets that hold up at any time of day. This is not what the original order was for. Shortcuts have been necessary throughout the history of VFX let alone CGI. Doing it all 100% proper all the time is NOT how this is done. Never was. It's about tailoring the corners you cut to a scene's needs.

[@WhySteve]

This reminds me of when I did a shortfilm and the "evil lady" casts a curse and I did some dark veins around her eyes, the pupil dilating and the skin turning pale. Creating an image that makes her look like she's channeling the darkness from inside and it's draining her life force (which was literally the plot). I spent an additional day in post to get it done and finished at like 4am. Sent it through to my buddy who was dealing with the director, making jokes like "Haha dude, imagine he says it looks good but I must make the eyes look less evil, haha". Literally woke up two hours later after my power nap to a message of the director saying exactly that. I thought he was kidding, but alas, I had to change everything. Resulting in an entire re-edit and going from a 30 node tree structure in Fusion, to just a desaturation keyframe.

[@PikaPetey]

CAN I POINT OUT ONE THING?! at 3:11 you see the actor in performance capture, then you see a cgi human skeleton, then cgi human muscles, then cig skin overlayed on top. VFX ARTIST DO NOT BUILD A ANATOMICALLY CORRECT HUMAN SKELETON UNDER CG MODELS!! Why do this show this as if its the workflow?? They even show this with creature effects. Its not a thing, its NEVER been a thing. That ANATOMICALLY CORRECT skeleton only exhists and was made for "behind the scenes footage"

[@Cyynapse]

its absolutely insane that the people who do 99% of the work on a film get paid 1% as much as everyone else

[@IanZamojc]

Animators also don't have a union and need one for similar reasons to VFX artists.

[@rexxthunder]

This is why I don't work in computer animation anymore. Like my friend that went on to work at Pixar put it after working there for 6 years, "It's just a job."

[@blaisetelfer8499]

Wow. So the artists had to pull 64 hour weeks for six months straight just implement Whedon's changes that made the movie look like a Superbowl commercial?

[@matheusdiniz1531]

Its plain scary how many people are talking about AI taking vfx jobs as a good thing. The way I see, they treat us like trash for years while we are just trying to work with something we truly love doing, expecting for things to get better for us, and then we are canned with no hesitation for AI to take over. Then we are left with thousands of people who spent a great part of their lives working their butts out to be good, or good enough in the craft and succeed, unemployed. The very workers who made the studios rich as hell. But its ok, all those thousands of people can now work directly for the consumer and be payed more, right? Right?? Or like someone said to me yesterday: "well, just look for a real job before its too late, then." If actors were treated like vfx artists, it would be a scandal.

[@rw3452]

Terrible treatment VFX artist and companies. Thanks for highlighting.

[@rotcorp]

It's not just VFX folks. Practical has to jump though similar hoops as well.

[@ChaosOver]

First of all, cool video. :) -- The documentation "Hollywoods greatest Trick" is about the same topic. I'm an Lighting Artist in VFX for over 20 years. I even worked on shots you show in your video. :D One of the initial reasons for the bad treatment are the people who joined the industry between 2004-2006. Before 2004 most of us had great salary and good working conditions. But then students started a race to the bottom just to get their feet into companies. This continued until covid. Some young people even work for 80-120 bucks a day... ;) Don't forget you'll usually get hired per project. After that you have to live of savings until the next project. That maybe is a few month away. Unions: In London is AUV (part of BECTU). The case R&H is difficult. They had some serious problems with managing their pipeline.

[@splatterling4539]

CG Lead, Principal Artist, Concept Artist here. You forgot the insane percentage of people in positions which they shouldn't occupy. People who are hired based on everything else but their expertise by people who don't know the difference between 3ds Max and Maya (or that this is even a thing they should think about). A lot of people are then being told how GREAT they are where in reality they don't even know the basics of the area they are supposed to lead. I've had Art Directors going "ah, cg lighting doesn't need to be realistic, right? It can be stupid like the sun is in front of you but the light comes from the back, it all looks good anyway!" or "Why can't i have a furry cube that's bouncy and jiggly, i thought the computer is doing everything?" I am not kidding. And then that is your superior.. or the person who puts together your schedule and other arrogant and ignorant people sign that off and commend the person for the GREAT schedule and then you ask yourself why there is a lookdev task at the very beginning of it all. Before assets, before everything else.. and why 58 tasks are missing or too long or too short. Why would they talk to you and dial in the schedule when their superiors say that their schedule is amazing!! Also tools are getting more accessible, which is a nice thing! But on the downside you have LOADS AND LOADS of untalented, unproductive almost cathartic freelancers, who think they are the best of the best. Yes i am a CG Lead and Principal artist and yes i am very much at the end of my wits. It is seriously INFURIATING. I've been told i can finally get a promotion to a creative lead, which in all honesty i can do really well and have done so in the past, but no, they rather hire someone based on other aspects. Someone who doesn't even know how comp, cg and animation works and what is necessary and who has ZERO experience OR talent in the visual field. And guess who is there to support them in the background while they are being praised to the heavens for their amazing job where, basically they go over my work and say "yea that looks nice!", but have no comment about anything EVER? Even when there are clearly errors on screen? That same person fired a comp artist, because he was "toxic" and "didn't respect their opinion". Well, they just left the project for two weeks because "it became too hard", didn't tell anyone, came back on the DAY OF DELIVERY, then told the comp artist that this and that is something they want changed, comp artist said it's not possible since in 4 hours we need to deliver. Then they complained to their superiors about their opinion not being respected and the comp artist being toxic for it. And there you go, toxic and sexist comp artist who was then fired. That's your industry right now. You have no idea how frustrating, unfair and idiotic it can be, seriously. And no one gives a shit. The clients don't, so it's being signed of, so the company gets the money for a job well done, so obviously there is no problem! The client in this case isn't disney, so there is noonethere that actually makes sure that it's all nice. I guarantee you, it's the same situation at the client's side too. People who get hired for the wrong reasons and don't know what they are talking about. Or you have PMs, who will be angry at you because you fixed a thing in two hours overtime, because you made everyone aware of that but noone either said something or they went full PM mode where they would talk about it MUCH MUCH longer than it takes to fix the damn thing. "Oh no we can't let you do that we need to book time for that, you are fully booked so we have to get an external, yadayada"

[@FrameVoyager]

I'm sure it's way deeper than even our video could cover. But I would think that the 30,000 foot view of this trickles down and makes everything worse the farther down you go. Like you said, art directors not even understanding VFX and how it even works. I appreciate your passion! Let us know if there is anything else we should cover on this topic, always happy to have guests on our podcast to delve into this further if you're interested

[@theunknown_747]

This reminds me of the childrens story the ant and the grasshopper. Where the ants outnumbered the grasshoppers and finally stood up to them. If all the vfx artists simply said NO. Then every big hollywood production company would have no place to go. No movie to make. Their ass is on the line and would loose millions. Hopefully learnt their lesson not to push the little people around.

[@joshintheshell]

This may come off in poor taste, but I can’t help but be at least a little bitter about all the support the WGA strike is getting right now. VFX workflows have only gotten more intense and are rarely compensated fairly for the extra work. And yet I remember getting barely as much as a “oh that sucks dude” during the VFX solidarity protests in 2012. I was a student at the time, so getting into the field and seeing almost nothing change, including for artists 100x as talented as I’ll ever be was so frustrating.

[@FrameVoyager]

Yeahhhh... It's hard, but the writers def. have a fair argument and need for that to change because of streaming. That situation is untenable. But I absolutley understand your sentiment

[@davidkglevi]

Time to fight, unite and demand!

[@FrameVoyager]

I hope so!

[@robertmartin4449]

Well. Seeing the movies that marvel has been putting out lately, they don’t really care about the art.

[@devine999]

I've been working in animation for 27 years. 1996. This all started years ago. I left the last company I worked for in 2003 and started up a small animation studio (just me) that does any small animation job. Logo's, documentary, advertising, art pieces for designers and anything else. I have never regretted my decision. I love working my own hours. It seems the movie industry has only been getting worse over the years. I hear it from old friends who still work there. Today I'm working on an engineering animation. I'll will, direct, story board, model, texture, light, animate, render and edit all on my own. It'll take about 2 weeks, the client will make no changes (they never do) and then I'll move onto a job where toothpaste coming out of a tube forms a logo.....I friggen love it! Don't work for the big studios, enjoy animation, generalize. I'll retire soon and still love animation.

[@reptongeek]

A good analogy for Post Production is a Cruise ship coming into port at the end of its journey. The passengers that are on the boat have to come off with all their luggage, the new passengers come on with their luggage and the ship is resupplied. This all has to happen within a specific time frame say 3 hours. If the ship has 100 passengers to come off and 100 to come on it can do this within the time frame, no problem Now imagine a situation where 30 extra passengers and their luggage join the Cruise ship two miles from the final stop. You still have to get all the passengers off and the new passengers on and the ship resupplied but you still only have 3 hours. This is what I believe happens in Post Production now, more things just keep getting added but the deadline isn't extended The first offender for this I'm sorry to say is Peter Jackson. During the Post of The Lord of the Rings The Return of The King he was constantly adding more VFX shots to the schedule with the result that the sound team had to mix the soundtrack without completed shots - and in fact the VFX were finished last five days before the premiere. This has now become the industry standard, the belief being (I guess) that because it happened once it can happen again If we go back to the early days of CG, on Jurassic Park for instance it was so expensive Michael Kahn when he was editing (on film, not a computer) could only give ILM the exact length of film needed for the shot. Plus the early uses of CGI were experienced at VFX and could describe exactly what they wanted and they needed to again because of the expense The other issue is we are using it for way more things than we need it for. We are using it for make-up, props and costumes that it should never be used for ever. If you need a prop it should be designed, built, tested if necessary and be completed ready for an actor to hold on set

[@doktor_ghul]

I am thoroughly in agreement on unionizing VFX artists. PRE-PRODUCTION should be where any changes are made, not after the work is done. Re-Shoots are much more complicated than ignorant producers seem to think. If you can't organize, then don't make the film. Unionize. Bring the fist down.

[@FrameVoyager]

They really jsut need to set ground rules on how things need to be done. That's the issue right now is it's still this wild west world and the people with the money make the rules

[@masturch33f87]

I feel like VFX artist should go on strike next. It's so clear. They have unsustainable practises all over the industry

[@Snuzzled]

What frustrates me the most is studios using digital VFX when they don't need to, and the end product winds up looking worse because either a) it's more technically difficult to use digital VFX, or b) they just don't give the VFX team enough time to do the shot justice. The infamous Marvel floating heads come to mind. The costume team made Tom Holland a gorgeous, wonderful practical Spider-Man suit and instead of using it, they digitally painted it out in the first and second Spidey movies, and I think they just flat out didn't use it at all in any other movies. In No Way Home, the behind the scenes footage has Tom flipping around in a grey mocap suit. Their excuse was that the Spidey suit was uncomfortable for Tom (understandable, in the first movie there's scenes of him taking sips of water through the mask's eye hole lol) and that the wrinkles and seams in the suit looked bad. But it's a lot easier to redesign a costume to be more comfortable and then paint out any seams or wrinkles than it is to have to digitally create and animate an entire suit from scratch, just from data captured from mocap. Not only did this make the scenes look really bad with floating heads, but even the scenes with the actual suit just looked unrealistic. No wrinkles, no folding, no warping of the fabric. It looked like the suit was painted on because, well, it basically was. And even though this looks fine in comics, it looks atrocious in a real movie. In The Amazing Spider-Man, they made sure his suit had ripples and billowed subtly in the breeze as he swung through the streets. Those little details make a movie truly shine visually, but the teams are both not being given time to do that, and not being allowed to do that anymore. When Tom does press tours and visits children's hospitals in his practical Spidey suit, it looks phenomenal, and I'm sad we instead got these painted on, floating heads, messes.

[@jasperbodag6296]

It is disgusting, at this point vfx are often the reason, why people go to the cinema, and the dont get a dime...

[@sasanvideoprod.6548]

Chatting? Unbelievable!! The whole film industry stand on CGI & VFX now, i think they should give the Tron move an Oscar now.

[@ScottValentine]

Exactly the same issue in Architecture, Landscape Design and Interior Design, anyone doing one-off custom design work essentially.

[@NoahStorys]

Yes!!! Unionize now!!! Make it 3 bands against the Hollywood executives!

[@bobphs]

love listening end watching you're edits.

[@reaktorleak89]

After hearing so many horror stories and seeing the results on-screen I don't know why any VFX studio would bid on Marvel movies.

[@Naomi-yc4fp]

I just finished my first year in uni for VFX, u would not believe how long it takes for my 5 second comp scene to render (just for me to check and then tweak it, there was only one CG object with a photo background) Everytime I tweak things, it takes around 5-10 minutes to render, and then I repeat it until everything look alright, for just comp, it took me around 27 hours to finish. (Not to say rendering animation and objects from Maya takes a long time too, for how little there is, it takes long enough for some of us to go home, go to gym, take a shower, get dinner and come back and it sometimes would still be rendering)

[@remconet]

Might be a bit to black and white, but... I've learned from a young age: you teach people how they should treat you. I think it's time VFX companies took a good look at their business model and terms and conditions.

[@FrameVoyager]

Unfortunately, very few businesses ever really look out for their employees. The biggest issue has been, as time has gone on in almost any industry, technology has made it so workers can be more efficient and output even more for their employers who get to make way more than they were before without the extra cost of labor ever going up. The people who run it, never get to see much of the profits from the increased efficiency.

[@suryakamalnd9888]

Amazing video bro

[@FrameVoyager]

Glad you liked it

[@suryakamalnd9888]

​@@FrameVoyager 😀 it's cauz you make good content

[@FrameVoyager]

@@suryakamalnd9888 🥰🥰🥰

[@chadyonfire7878]

thx for raising awareness about this

[@colinmason8320]

The CGI in The Fifth Element has held up better than CGI from movies released in the last 3 years.

[@Novastar.SaberCombat]

Award-winning author here. Yup. Almost NO ONE--especially the consumer--appreciates what goes into the creation of a robust product. No one. Myself, I outline, structure, write, develop, edit, illustrate (THERE ARE 60-100 IMAGES IN EACH BOOK), format, and do the cover designs for my series. If that sounds like "no big deal" to you, understand that I ALSO construct my website, craft all of my videos, and record VOICE-OVER (yes, that's right) for everything. Take... one... GAEDAEMN guess just how much appreciation has been cast my way. Very, very, very, VERY little. But it is what it is. Acceptance is key. And I don't have many years left on this planet. So... yeah. IT IS WHAT IT IS. 🐲✨🐲✨🐲✨

[@Saturn2888]

I'm a software engineer, and everything you talk about is the same crap I deal with from clients. Same issues! I wonder how people in charge of these projects got so far away from the engineers that put it together. Many things are so specialized today that people simply have no clue what others go through. I didn't know either until watching videos like yours. Even my industry is specialized. While I've had experience with many technologies, I've focused mainly on the web, and my last 8 years have been 100% JavaScript. So I'm even more specialized than I when I first started doing game development.

[@RadhakrishnaSharma]

So... I thought this was a very old video... imagine my surprise this is only a month old. My point is... This is still an issue after 11 years. And the sad thing is... this will NEVER be solved.

[@krausersama9153]

Just look @ the oscars 2023.. avatar gets best vfx and the franchise holds both 1st and 3rd spot for highest grossing movies of all time, yet when they get on stage.. "eww who let the nerds up here.. cut the mic!" 🤯