The Twins Changes - As Terrible as We Thought - Dead by Daylight

[@SIyrak]

Nice of Scott to give small content creators like Otzdarva a shout out like this.

[@Kazzzack]

basically just made Victor a 150% movement speed insta-down killer

[@dearcastiel4667]

Not insta-down, just 150 move speed. He's a Nurse 2.0.

[@Pablo-pr4vg]

@@dearcastiel4667 "basically" when you get two tapped no matter what in 10-20 seconds it's more or less a pseudo insta-down.

[@snewp_e2139]

@@Pablo-pr4vg”pseudo” you either get instadowned or you dont, no in between

[@MidnightSlasher]

Naw he's just a variant of chucky

[@Pablo-pr4vg]

@@snewp_e2139 But there is. You can't do anything to avoid the two tap, You're just splitting hairs.

[@Veggie18]

Otz is asleep, quick steal his footage before he wakes up

[@Steven-hc1vy]

Steal?

[@abizarreyoutuber6317]

​@@Steven-hc1vyjoke

[@fawaaztoefy9334]

Otz isnt the problem. Notzdarva on the other hand...

[@PrismaticFitness]

Robots don’t sleep

[@ScotsmanGamer]

@@Steven-hc1vy what do you think he borrowed it stupid?

[@jptrady1997]

its no longer twins its just "Victor" and charlotte is there to just pick em up 😭

[@Azoz157_]

literally chucky

[@pedroh.ferraz511]

Killer: The twin Power: once you down a survivor, Victor can sumon his big Sister to pick them up

[@misterbonkers]

hello friends this is scottz, or at least a very convincing hologram

[@Pyrax-Tunneled-You]

Hey Scott, Guys here.

[@Steel_Gage]

Hey Scott, Guys here.

[@czms922]

Hey here, Scott Guys

[@Cold_0311]

Here hey, Guys Scott

[@sleepybear_720]

Here Scott, Guys Heyy🥴!

[@hellokittygaming42069]

Hey y'all! Scott here!

[@kingmoosh2004]

they really can’t seem to hit the mark on the whole “teamwork” aspect of the killer. this new version is even more “victor does everything while charlotte sits in a corner” than the old slugging playstyle was.

[@Luna.Tenebra]

​@@keeperofthehammer6795 soooo you mean Dredge

[@bunbunjackalope4415]

The funny thing was basically everyone on social media thought these changes were amazing when they first released them, while the 10 twin players out there knew this was the stupidest thing suggested

[@hopeoxo]

ngl anyone with a working brain could tell this is one of the most unbalanced patches that has ever been released on a ptb

[@OfffTheGoop]

? Idk what circle you hang around with in social media but EVERYONE said these changes would be bad, tf 😭

[@yuppersmeer6080]

The main issue in my opinion, is twins needs a full rework of the power rather than these small reworks that dont fix the fundamental problem and there y create new ones. But twins mains don't like that so it's a no-go.

[@dakota9821]

i saw nothing but negative feedback on the patch notes drop; you're full of shite

[@Left4Sharkbait]

​@@OfffTheGoopnah I def saw some people going like "Wow these sound great! I might play them now!" and I, a Twins player, hated it because not only is this terrible design, but it also kills the identity of The Twins.

[@Skillfulstone]

The only "counterplay" is to travel in pairs. Viktor downs a Survivor, he gets kicked immediately, the 2nd Survivor then must get the slug up before Charlotte gets there (without specific perks it's very hard to do in time). But good luck coordinating that in SoloQ...

[@InfInityNoir]

this is counterplay to current twins, it doesn't work against reworked twins because with the 10% haste you will never get enough time to pick up and they will be able to get both survivors injured before downing one so you will always be injured, it's the first killer ever in dbd that can undo a heal so effortlessly

[@coletrainhetrick]

You can just hit both survivors and keep both injured

[@tristankoot2348]

​@@InfInityNoirif victor is crushed you lose the 10% speed

[@dakota9821]

you will not have the time to crush victor and pick the surv up, lean how math works bozo@@tristankoot2348

[@oireal7261]

I think that one big thing that needs to change is: Victor can be kicked by a different Survivor after Pouncing on one, and he needs to be massively slowed down after a successful Pounce to give Survivors a chance to kick him. As one of those 3 Twins mains, I genuinely think that the number adjustments are amazing and should be kept. They seem so much more fluid and you can swap so much more liberally. The key problem with this rework is that it's no longer two killers, it's just Victor and then Charlotte cleans up. The current latching onto healthy Survivors is fine since it pushes you to use both characters, just give Charlotte some small buffs while Victor is being held similarly to Myers. Something called a "Solo mode" or something, where Charlotte has an extended Lunge (in reference to Coup) or increased action speed. Victor being able to two-tap is ridiculously broken and should not make it to live.

[@Alienclown1500]

Agreed, all the number changes are great but the new mechanics and playstyle is making me regret being a twins main

[@ardaoguzhan8181]

As broken as she is i just want to play as them without having to go through 69420 second CD

[@kidscast5842]

Honestly that is a good idea and idk why they did not do that for this live patch. Make it so that victor latches onto both healthy and injured survs (this would obviously make the twins super weak) but to compensate make it so that Charlotte has big buffs whilst victor is latched on. This gives the choice between crushing victor and letting her have him back a lot sooner or do you hold her but risk giving her the extra buffs?

[@katharinestdavid9128]

This sucks too cuz the twins no longer feel like a team. It’s just victor time all the time and charlotte is relegated to pick up duty. Before it was fun cuz Victor and Charlotte felt like assists to each other, like helping yourself out. Sincerely one of the three twins mains

[@P0choclo_]

This is actually new killer, his name is "The Victor" (Every footage that I've seen about the new gameplay of The Twins only uses Charlotte as the "survivor carrier")

[@Luna.Tenebra]

The Kid

[@lred1383]

it also makes sense because it's hard to lose with something this broken, so the name hints at the outcome of the match

[@CamwenUwU]

I am one of the 4 twins mains out there, this looks so bad. I love the speed you get when swapping and all, you don't take 8 seconds to gain full speed after downing, but it's just downright oppressive. Hope it doesn't get axed to death though.

[@chaosflash912]

If they keep the speed from swapping, the good changes, and axe these bad changes that make Twins utterly obnoxious to play against, then I think they'd be in a really good spot.

[@officialcafemojo]

Just put them back as they were with the better swap speed.

[@DDPMonster]

Make Viktor always attach on injure or down. Keep the good swap speed and then you can even buff her further.

[@xykane]

that doesn't solve the issue at hand though. twins can be boring to play both as and against because of that slugging playstyle. @@officialcafemojo

[@jeffreymonsell659]

​@@xykane Never heard that slugging is boring to play as. Maybe against, but idk, given that the main survivor objective is holding down a button for 2 minutes, you'd think waiting around a bit wouldn't be so bad.

[@theshroudedghost8288]

Hi Scott Cawthon

[@rumley3176]

Scott the Woz

[@waltuh3713]

Sco

[@sayozrespubilk894]

More like Scott Yapperton since he loves to complain about everything, Twins is fine as it is.

[@purple_1884]

IS THIS THE FACECAMP OF '87???

[@wheeliethebin]

@@sayozrespubilk894 lowest quality bait of 2024

[@SunderMun]

They weren't thinking. They never are.

[@wrathybear]

Gotta give them props for even trying.

[@alexbayswood4847]

Twins needs a real reworK.

[@thedeadp00lttv]

Is it that hard to just have a few game testers and listen to their feed back no they just get fog whisperers that just tell them there great or their fired. Pretty sad

[@kingmoosh2004]

i mean, its a ptb. this is only an issue if they let it go live. for now, let’s give them the benefit of the doubt.

[@SunderMun]

@@kingmoosh2004 Oh yeah the great thing about the PTB is that once in a blue moon they do actually listen to feedback from the PTB and act on it, the earliest example I recall being Ghostface's chapter. But I gave them the benefit of the doubt on so many things for years to a point where I just...can't anymore lol

[@flossfish6249]

imagine how good a Twins rework could be if BHVR made any effort to communicate with players before pushing major updates

[@mayrui2203]

I mean tbf here they didn't push this at all. It's PTB specifically for player feedback...

[@Klinfran]

To be fair, this is just the PTB and lately they have been very open to make major changes from PTB to live, 2 years ago wathever was on the PTB was released with maybe some very minor number changes but now its not like that (thank god).

[@SqueletteCoolG]

It’s a shame there aren’t multiple PTB reviews before a push to live. I wouldn’t publish something directly to live after it got massively bombed, I would at least do a second pass.

[@milky_4681]

Imagine how good the game as a whole would be if the devs weren’t brain dead cucks that not only played their game but are good at it💀

[@Moonpuncher1]

You're right about the ptb. I like that behavior tries drastic things on ptb then backs off of them. I think it's better than tiny changes that don't feel like they matter. But as well, very strange that this was even worth testing. Some things need to be played to realize they're broken, but this was obvious.

[@noaheaston2147]

We’ve waited years for twins rework, and this is what they come up with…

[@boredguy5271]

They spent like.... maybe a month on this. No way they spent years, lmao.

[@dr.dripton]

Clown rework should've prepared u for this they aren't going to address the main problems

[@uggZymoroon]

sadako part 2

[@MimikyuDisciple]

@@boredguy5271 The Rest Of The Time Was Likely Spent Coming Up With Ideas For The Twins Rework.

[@boredguy5271]

@@MimikyuDisciple I shudder to think what kind of ideas they came up with before settling on THIS one. If THIS is the least bad one, fuckin HELL-

[@alekizzu4705]

They had one year mind you. Or even longer, to make a proper rework on this killer. What we got instead? A killer ten times more problematic than the old one. Zero counters. At this point I strongly believe the devs either NEVER test their updates or they simply don’t understand how their own game works

[@firebus_DBD]

Viktor was tired of getting kicked in the head. He is here to enact vengeance.

[@DDPMonster]

Make Vikor attach on injure and down. You can then tune her up to compensate. I feel like that is the most elegant solution.

[@Thisisnotasign]

.... so old twins but worse? Wheres the buff lmao

[@DDPMonster]

​@@Thisisnotasignits not. With this she will not have problematic gameplay patterns. You can actually buff her from this point without making her broken or aweful face.

[@chuggatacotrunks]

​@@Thisisnotasign They lose ability to chase after hitting, but gain: - haste when Victor is attached -qol changes so the gameplay is smoother - ability to recall victor whenever - faster base pounce - regain killer instinct again when latched to injured survivor Still not the best, but great changes.

[@tfcbioshock]

That's...really not good ngl​@@DDPMonster

[@JediTiga]

@@DDPMonster "Problematic gameplay patters" Bro nobody plays Twins because they're shit. So you want to nerf a killer that's D tier and no one plays? How about you learn to counter that playstyle. There is a plethora of perks and add-ons at your disposal.

[@thenewgamer64]

when Lynxi was live earlier, we saw first hand that the Slug playstyle is even stronger as a result and can still do it reliably and cause solo teams/uncoordinated teams to fail before 1 gen pops

[@Lordlyshrimp]

That's because she's the best twins player against Randoms with no mmr

[@Hoosje11]

They weren't randoms. They were her viewers who have lots of experience playing against her and brought the strongest stuff against Twins (Expo boons, Power Struggle etc.). She killed them at 5 gens every time and didn't even have to put in effort for it.@@Lordlyshrimp

[@SaitekiSan]

@@Hoosje11Well that's lying. On average she killed them around 2-3 gens remaining and she herself said "I'm sweating my ass off to win because I need to play how they'd perform on live"

[@Hoosje11]

No? She was literally playing how she normally would, indeed to see how they would perform live. The majority of the games, at least at the start with her viewers, were at 5 gens. I was watching the stream dummy, lmao. And whether it's 4 or 5 gens is not the point anyways. The point is that they're completely broken and uncounterable.@@SaitekiSan

[@SaitekiSan]

@Hoosje11 I mean you're just blatantly lying though She wasn't playing in a lackluster way, she was going try hard. You said she wasn't trying.

[@CHICKENNUGGETSKOON]

New Killer: The Victor The Victor can call his older sister, Charlette, to carry downed survivors to hooks

[@forthelolz1121]

While I agree the Twins change is ridiculously overturned, the thing that really pisses me off are some of the addon changes. Like BHVR casually made Soul Chemical, Summoning Stone and Iridescent Pendant go from having unique addon effects to the most generic shit.

[@splash2345]

I don't understand how they managed to make twins even less interactive

[@The_Dragon_Tiamat]

I am not a big super pro twins main however I do main twins. And IMO all they needed to do with this rework was add in the QOL stuff, update the addons as they did and nothing more.

[@missadeloo]

If they want to make Victor as agressive as Nurse, he needs either a fatigue after a successful hit or have to recharge his Pounce same way most killer do. Maybe even make the cooldown longer or shorter depending of the distance with Charlotte ? (so they are much stronger in close proximity but are significantly weaker when far away)

[@theinsanepie450]

If we don't all agree on one solution for a fix, twins are gonna get slammed in release with nerfs. We all need to think of one solution for this problem and hope behavior listens before making twins the least picked killer again. My idea is that victor will latch onto the survivor on both health states when injuring or downing, and when injuring a survivor with victor Charlotte will gain 10% haste until he is crushed (injuring someone would not remove the haste), this lets survivors healing being the counter-play (again) but also gives survivors the decision to chose between letting Charlotte keep her 10% haste or letting her have victor again.

[@Hatecrewdethrol]

"You already have my lawyers number" Why I do I feel like Otz with use this in one of his new video intros

[@ActualDaywalker]

I've been a Twins player since the days I can remember playing this game. Their design is like no other killer and offer so much unique ways to play which was always fun for me, as flawed as they were in some aspects. When they announced the rework was gonna take longer due to the size, I was really thinking they were gonna give them a proper release and really lean into the thing that makes them unique, but seeing this I feel like they don't know what to do with them. The split mechanic is the thing that really makes the Twins THE Twins, but ever since release to now all they ever did was change Victor himself rather than change the way Charlotte and Victor interact and work with each other. They made Viktor sluggish, terrible to control, punishes you for hitting someone with that awful 5 second hit cooldown, but he was also so good and oppressive, while Charlotte on her own was basically just there to do the actions as a basic M1 killer and switching back and forth between them also felt so terrible and punishing with all the time waste. The rework basically changed nothing what made them flawed besides the slugging, which while is a good solution, shouldn't be the way to go since it doesn't change the fact that the Viktor OP Charlotte pointless feeling is still there and amplified by 100 now. Make them feel rewarding for splitting pressure as a pair, hunt as a pair, like a Trapper Trap or a Merchant Drone you have control over and reward thinking ahead. That was always the way Twins was fun to me, having the feeling of having 2 killers around the place and lead Survivors into each other, pressure both sides of the map at once, but with all the slow cooldowns and weird clunky mechanics it just felt weird to play like that. And all of those were in place because otherwise Viktor would feel ever worse to play against, and when the rework took most of that away and maybe shifted one two things around, they are still just as bad and unappealing as before except now it is actually broken unfair. I also completely forgot about the Haste part Charlotte gets, but I kinda have no words for that. For me that just shows that they really had no real thought about what to make of them.

[@MothDax]

The moment i saw Otz down someone who healed from Adrenaline in like 10 seconds was the moment that sealed the complete lunacy of these changes for me I dont even think nurse can down someone that fast in that scenario.

[@Night_Hawk_475]

Yeah, saw this coming. I'd rather play against old twins. People tend to grasp onto the most unique and noticeable parts of killers when choosing what to complain about them. The fact twins slugged people constantly was an issue, but it wasn't the biggest issue. the real issue is that slugging itself is a shitty mechanic. Survivors need to be able to interact more with the game while on the ground, without over-boosting them though.

[@paradonyx7987]

I’d like to see some type of penalty/debuff applied to the killer when more than 1 survivor is slugged at a time. It would make sense for the lore of the game too, since survivors need to be hooked to please the entity, so slugging them just goes completely against the killer’s job. Either that, or make unbreakable base kit and have the Unbreakable perk allow for unlimited recovery.

[@Night_Hawk_475]

​@@paradonyx7987 my pitch was two fold: let survivors hold sprint key while down to crawl faster, but at the cost of bleeding out faster, 2x-4x. AND also let survivors pick themselves up once per game, but only when they've got like 10-15% remaining time on their bleed out. Being able to shorten your bleed out timers means that in the worst case scenario of being slugged needlessly you can at least avoid spending 4 minutes on the ground optionally. But also you can do so without just feeling like you're giving up slowly, since you can tactically spread out away from your teammates and pick yourself up if the killer actually does try to win through slugging. Importantly though, it's not as powerful as unbreakable is, so it won't immediately let survivors free-escape every time they go down. (The last time BHVR discussed a basekit unbreakable to counter slugging I felt like they had WAY overshot the mark and made taking hits / going down too powerful because being slugged was too strong for survivors with unlimited ubreakables every 30-40 seconds). Another note too is that this change wouldn't invalidate the unbreakable perk itself, since it could retain it's current function and allow you to pick yourself up wayyy earlier, and you could still get the one free pickup later. I think this would make winning through slugging much harder and more fair, and would allow survivors to continue to have things to do and to play the game while they're on the ground, instead of feeling like all hope is lost. It also doesn't completely destroy the ability for slugging-killers to continue to try to win, slugging is still not worthless with these changes. The extended amount of time that survivors spend on the ground would still mean that killers gain a significant increase in map pressure by having one survivor downed if they have something else proactive to do after getting a down.

[@Antarctide]

Twins still are a slugging machine with this rework btw. Shows how competent the playtesters of this game are.

[@Night_Hawk_475]

@@AntarctideI totally believe it, for sure. Slugging one survivor and leaving them so you can abuse the new +10% haste to get another one downed is really powerful. Especially when you can easily use Viktor to pre-damage everyone so that no survivors are ever healthy when they find charlotte.

[@liptonpipton4135]

​@@Night_Hawk_475brilliant ideas my man, you should work in their team, not Roblox servers balance kids

[@FizzyFizze]

I like how this rework has been long awaited and now that it's here it's the worst thing since Skull Merchants release

[@Dustaroo]

Saw this coming from a mile away but most did. Had some people defending this with their chest wild stuff. Idk how the devs come back from this two years to pop this out stellar.

[@Dayz671]

Yeah, I just saw your video and you comment section of that video was baffling.

[@JasonsFilmsYT]

"I think we've done a pretty good job so far"

[@originalyoutubername5188]

Honestly, I dabble in twins and the haste is a pretty good idea. It would be a nice QOL thing on pre-rework twins. If you add that, make it so victor latches on both injure and when downing to prevent the slugging, and maybe add something for when Victor is in the radius of Charlotte like a boon totem, then I could see Twins actually being a killer people pick in this game.

[@DDPMonster]

I am really a fan of him latching on both on injure and down. Seems like the best solution to the slugging problem and makes them not absurdly broken.

[@xykane]

yeah but its a potential huge nerf to them so there has to be something else to compensate. MAYBE the movement speed thing would be enough but I doubt that. you would essentially just be getting downs with victor like a normal killer, walking across the map to pickup and hook, and then rinse and repeating while gens fly. @@DDPMonster

[@originalyoutubername5188]

@@xykane That’s why I suggested a third kind of change, like the AOE buff to Charlotte when in the radius of Victor outside of her chest. Now what that buff is, I have no idea what would break the game, I just know it could get silly. Longer lunge range, faster vaulting and breaking speed, MORE haste, idk. Thoughts?

[@CoryMueller]

Does anyone else get royally pissed whenever an event ends and the BP per match goes down to 40k? I’ve only ever played killer, and I would like to play the other half of the game. But the thought of having to grind like I’m unemployed just to get a handful of useful survivor perks makes it feel worthless to even start… …especially when killers can sniff out a non-meta build and tunnel you like Princess Diana.

[@everettfelix3905]

You can easily slug more than one… Lynxi had all 4 slugged at 5 gens on her first game lol

[@seonjung5050]

Old twins were FINE. They suffered because of slow cooldowns and Charlotte being far from Victor when he downs someone. So, keep the reduced cooldowns for detaching Victor and waking Charlotte, but allow Victor to drag downed survivors to Charlotte. That alone should fix so many slugging issues that the twins are forced to do.

[@dakota9821]

no. Victor should have NO ability to move downed survs; Anyone that makes the suggestion is a braindead goid.

[@philipmrch8326]

A terrible change by BHVR on the PTB? Wow what a shocker. And I bet they'll release it anyway and totally ignore everyone.

[@carlosdavila3066]

When have they ever done that? The point of the PTB is to test things. This isn’t going to live stop crying like a baby

[@supermilordo5153]

​@@carlosdavila3066 Sir, the circus is down there 🎪

[@oxerrt]

​@@carlosdavila3066they always have they just did they barely change stuff from ptb only very little stuff bigger changes always happen way after full release

[@zarinasuperiority2376]

@@carlosdavila3066were you not here for the movement and animations update? The HUD and survivor locomotions were widely disliked and they still went through with the update.

[@empiyrr2133]

In recent times BHVR have actually listened to the feedback remember the base kit unbreakable and mori rework or how most of the last few killers have had updates based off of the PTB feedback

[@bronzedong]

I never saw anyone asking for a “buff” per say atleast whenever I’m on the subreddit I only usually see people asking to fix glitches lol

[@wig.snatcher]

funny how this huge rework took them 3 years

[@ZachariaM]

Vile Scott once again co-opting a small streamer's hard working footage for his own material gains

[@Antarctide]

Let's also not forget about that new addon inflicting Broken for 1 minute just for successfully pouncing a survivor.

[@Wumbogubbin]

I think a simple fix to this problem is to make trapper unable to see the aura of his traps

[@GamingChair420]

Devs: "understood we have nerfed pig"

[@chanceplace6057]

My ideal twins rework is instead of OP double hit victor, allow victor to recall Charlotte at will, giving her map control more options than slugging and a means to continue a chase after the first hit that isn't just victor double hits the end.

[@meno1432]

I can confirm I regret downloading the 30 gigs dont do it but you will be happy to know that the switch to UE5 also has a shader compilation step when you launch the game so you wont get stutters mid match anymore when you update your drivers

[@knightedsensei]

There needs to be some counterpleas in the form of the survivors for it to balance out. Maybe make it so you cannot "hold" victor's pounce + reduce the size of the hitbox? Basically turn Victor's pounce attack into a Huntress hatchet - you can ready it up but then you have to launch there and then or suffer a small cooldown. Allows survivors to dodge/gain distance for quick launches/cancelling your launch.

[@iancraig5415]

You would think BHVR would've at least tested this themselves before even letting it hit the ptb but apparently not

[@Szajee]

The way Twins is actually S tier right now I never thought I'd see the day

[@Antarctide]

Really? They've basically always been a high tier killer.

[@f1ollower140]

A fun change would be to let survivors wake Charlotte up when shes in Victor mode. This would incentivize Charlotte to hide before deploying Victor and it'll make survivors complete a "side objective"

[@dion8895]

As soon as I read that he can't be kicked after he hits a pounce, I knew that was an issue. I didn't expect him to turn into mini-Blight, though. Watching people test this has almost been comical

[@buckmills4159]

I love how it was so obvious from first read how bad this was to every player but no one in behavior had a clue.

[@marakui5071]

Good side of this situation is that we can witness what will devs do with low playble killer - ignore problem and slap some bandaid fixes (trickster treatment) or spend resources for another rework.

[@blackcube5083]

you know it’s bad when scott both: doesn’t play it, and when he makes a personal request for it to not get put to live 💀

[@notevoms]

they are gonna make some inconsequential changes and push this to live for sure

[@IAmPsychos]

i have a terrible feeling they’re gonna push it live anyways and just put some bandaid fixes over it and say that they won’t reverse it since they worked “so hard” on this abysmal of a “rework”

[@Katana314]

I don't quite know what to keep in the Twins plan, since "inconvenience in getting victor back / hooking the downed survivor" is both the most frustrating part for both sides, and the big counterbalance to their power that makes them counterable.

[@TLtheDude]

A simple change would be to give a grace period between when Victor first hits a survivor and when he's able to down them

[@iheartblock3792]

It’s funny how many genuinely incredible suggestions twins mains have made over the years to improve them, and THIS is what they did. Wasn’t the twins rework announced 2 YEARS ago at this point? You’d think they’d have put more more thought into it

[@mayuwu4408]

If I'm understanding correctly, basically what's happened is they've fixed the foundational problem they were aiming to solve (incentivized to heavily slug), however in doing so they've also removed the Twins' counterplay (as Victor and his power scaling was designed around the limitation of never being able to solely bring someone from healthy to down in 1 chase, and being able to remove him from play after he gets 1 hit). Would the best (or at least simplest) solution be to keep the reworked foundational changes as is and introduce more counterplay to balance it out? Since the lack of counterplay is due to Victor's power level (aka his high lethality's consistency) being too high for his now unrestricted 1v1 damage potential, perhaps making whatever changes needed to make Victor's pounce more of a skillshot that you can hit if you're good but you can also reasonably dodge that the Twins player needs to land twice to down you would resolve this imbalance? Although even if that worked (and was fun for the Twins player to try and mindgame/land and for the surv to mindgame/dodge), then we have the design issue of Twins just being Hunteress/Demo with extra steps (and more risk, since a bad miss with Victor is chase-ending), which isn't great for preserving the killer's mechanical identity (with how few play Twins, I'm unfamiliar with if they even have one?). Maybe shifting some of that nerfed power away from Victor into giving Charlotte some kind of ability to use as well can add another interesting dynamic to things to compliment and contrast Victor and allow for more playstyles and a more unique identity? Idk edit: Someone else suggested making Victor latch on both on injury and on downs, which is a pretty good idea that's interesting, although as they noted this would be a huge nerf on it's own and they'd need some kind of compensatory addition or change. They suggested maybe adding some kind of interesting effect Charlotte would recieve while in Victor's radius, I think maybe this could be where Charlotte is given an ability to compensate, something. It's a good idea too! To be fair, the devs did not have much to work with, the Twins being among the worst-designed killers in modern DBD (but probably not top 3) and a product of crunch culture's demand to push out killers before they were ready, as well as very little data to work off of either. I do not envy them having to resolve this issue lmao. Although with how long they've been talking about a Twins rework and how long they've been basically abandoned for, even if it was still broken or poorly consitered, I expected more than this.

[@Klinfran]

IMO with these changes Victor should always be kickable and kicking should take priority over pouncing so the killer is forced to attack from a distance or risks losing Victor, this would make speeding through the map, putting yourself right behind someone and then getting an undodgeable hit extremely risky or outright impossible, it would also open the posibility of tricking survivors into coming closer trying to kick you just to get pounced before they reach. Or at least try something like this, Twins in the PTB are completely busted, there is no way Solo queue can beat them.

[@kidscast5842]

There was no way anyone could beat them, not just solo q, victor could down faster than nurse since nurse after hitting with two blinks at least has to go through fatigue and wait for both blinks to come back, but victor had nothing he had to wait for and can catch up and pounce in seconds

[@ravecat]

a lot of this is solved by giving a huge cooldown on victor after a successful attack, maybe even removing the kick invuln

[@7eewilsmi127]

all i truly want from dbd is for the devs to fix their spaghetti code, but from what i've heard they messed it up so bad that now that they know how to fix it they just can't...

[@Lvit2BeaverTail]

Pretty easy fix, allow survivors to kick Victor without crushing him. Kicks him back for like half the time of a stun. Copy Paste to Chucky after a dash while you’re at it.

[@yugohima8837]

“I think we’ve done a pretty good job so far”

[@BunnyJester03]

The thing about twins old design is it felt like you were getting punished for playing the game well. You injure a survivor? Victor gets kicked. You down a survivor? Victor gets kicked. You miss a survivor? Victor gets kicked. You land your lunge slightly elevated? You get kicked. The new rework fixes that but now makes it an unfun game for survivors. How exactly can they balance that

[@somacringe9637]

It took them four YEARS to do this. And it’s still terrible, what the hell are they doing lmfao

[@Bthakilla4rilla]

My theory for BHVR's mentality is they're trying to keep entire teams from getting just wiped out by Victor by changing how his grab works (I know you can just kick his face in) by forcing the killer back to Charlotte after the down and basically saying "hey go get this person, don't just sit on them" and everything else was changed because now they think Victor is going to be used sparingly instead of instantly annihilating any singled-out survivor.

[@lierx.agerate8230]

Carrying Victor on your back for as long as possible was one of the most fun things this game had to offer

[@Modeus.]

I think that the "slapped-on Haste" is actually pretty good for Twins, as it allows Charlotte to get to the downed Survivor and secure the hook, instead of thinking "someone will get 'em", and rely on slugging, which is a stronger strategy for Twins than a simple hook confirm, but not as healthy for the game.

[@PrimeKeroHS]

As one of the 4 Twins mains that exist in this world, this is absolute insanity and it won't hit the live servers in this state... But I'm all here for it for this small period of time on the ptb. It's gonna be fun >:)

[@iansantiago6526]

I have never played twins in my life, but seeing these changes....they either have to add a ridiculous cool down every hit with victor or completely revert the changes.

[@Thatitchyguy]

bhvr wont be happy until every killer is utterly miserable to play against.

[@Leosennnn]

As someone who is mentally ill enough to really like playing twins, I think the proper change is a further buff of victor and charlotte's swap time and the ability to play both of them efficiently, while also making victor always latch regardless of health state, so if the survivor is healthy you get the old latch, if you survivor is injured you get the new one.

[@mrjamezjc9845]

Its not even about them not listening to us, its about all of us knowing straight as we read it that it was bad yet somehow they didnt think that when designing it

[@Merumya]

its like huntress at 150% speed but if she misses she "could" be punished... but if you dont miss...

[@whitey6174]

If Victor hits a pounce on a survivor, keep as is, but if he lands pounce again either during a set time period or before hitting another survivor, he simply latches and inflicts the old latch state. Done, boom, there you go. How did they not get this?

[@NAL-r3q]

there is a million ways to get this to work solution 1:make it so charlotte can't call back victor if latched, and if another survivor kick victor off the back of a downed survivor, the downed survivor regains a health sate(force surv to group) solution 2:make it so victor is latched on hitting a healthy survivor, and charlotte gets the haste toward the survivor, keep that charlotte can recall victor anytime and survivor can smash victor (hit with victor, confirm with charlotte) solution 3 :make it so victor is automatically recalled to charlotte when he hits a healty survivor, and charlotte can send him again with no cooldown(base and drone) solution 4 :make it so victor puts healthy survivors in deep wound on hit, can't down survivor in deep wound, still downs injured survivor not in deep wound (hit and run) solution 5: make victor to have a range limit to how far he can get from charlotte(leash) solution 6: make victor kickable on hitting a healthy survivor, but if you do, charlotte gets a speed boost and killer instinct on the kicker(fury buff) solution 7: make victor slow longer/stronger slow after hitting a healthy survivor and force camera up or down, so victor can't see were survivor went(run& hide) solution 8: make victor can't down survivor, instead hitting an injured survivor latch victor to them and charlotte gets the haste, but only another survivor can kick victor off his victim, if they do,both gets aura revealed(die alone or risk the group)

[@Spudmay]

"we can go through that whole process again" lolol

[@Ribboppity]

Apparently, the solution to slugging is Old Legion.

[@WutTheDeuceGaming]

The delay when swapping and being restricted by hooks was all they needed to do along with ridding their bugs.

[@RockSkull]

I honestly think besides being able to double hit everything seems like pretty decent changes. The kit doesn't feel as sluggish when switching back and forth, and using victor in general feels smoother. Maybe all this time all the twins needed was QOL rather then completely changing how hitting people with victor works.

[@Mirrors957]

they really took all the worst bad/unfun things killers had and gave them all to twins lmao

[@lev1eye628]

I think this would’ve fixed the twins (and Im reworking them from their live state not ptb) Basekit Changes: -Victor: •Victor charges his pounce 0.2 seconds quicker (Toy sword basekit) When Victor hits an injured survivor, it takes 4.5 seconds to recover with Victor instead of 5 seconds (I feel like this will give Victor some more flexibility and feel a lot better to play as) •After you hit an injured survivor, you are able to switch to Charlotte during Victor’s Recovery. You CANNOT do this if you miss a shot with Victor. •Whenever Victor is kicked while idle or when you miss a pounce, it will take 10 seconds to respawn on Charlotte instead of 6 seconds. That way survivors won’t constantly be going against Victor. (This does not apply when Victor is attached onto a survivor and gets crushed or if you recall him, doing such will remain at 6 seconds the cooldowns will feel a little bit better which would decrease slugging a lot less, especially because you can swap to charlotte much earlier to pick up a downed survivor. -Charlotte •Charlotte now takes 2.5 Seconds to wake up instead of 3 seconds. Whenever a survivor does kick Victor, they get killer instinct for like 4 seconds and Charlotte will become enraged for the next 15 seconds . -While enraged, Charlotte will get a 10% Haste effect. -Additionally the next healthy survivor she hits will be inflicted with deep wounds. -After hitting a survivor, Enrage deactivates. Although adding a little slowdown isn’t needed for their current play style, you could definitely make some new other plays with it. Only did this so the Twins feel more flexible and comfortable to play. Right now many people believe they are in a weird and clunky spot, Charlotte is also just a normal m1 killer, so I think these changes will add a little more variety to her kit. Some issues that should be addressed: •Whenever you leave Victor idle for 25 seconds or more, you have the ability to recall him to attach to you. •Whenever a Survivor is holding Victor hostage for more than 16 Seconds, you have the ability to recall him. •Whenever a survivor is in the process of being sacrificed on the hook, you have to ability to swap to either Charlotte or Victor. (I can not tell you how many games I lost just from that happening) •Whenever you hook a survivor next to Victor, he will immediately be recalled to Charlotte •Maybe removing Victor’s collision while you’re carrying a survivor so he doesn’t body block you. Now before I get into the add on changes I do wanna say that my goal was to try to make the add ons useful instead of useless. Non-Changed Add Ons: Tiny Fingernail Bloody Black Hood Rusted Needle Madeleine’s Scarf Victor’s Soldier Forest Stew Silencing Cloth Iridescent Pendant Changed Add ons: •Toy Sword: Victor moves 10% faster while charging up a pounce (Made current effect basekit) •Soured Milk: Increases Victor alert range by +4 meters The Cat Figurine displays the location of where you are going to pounce, now this add on is quite inaccurate and when you pounce closely to something, you actually will not be able to see because the white line is blocking your view, however I made it so it’s still kind of a guiding add on that will help players so I changed it so •Cat Figurine: Victor can see Scratch Marks I feel like this will help players be able to track down survivors as Victor and not be completely lost. •Madeleine’s Glove: Increases the time Victor is attached to a survivor or locks a survivor in a locker by 2 Seconds •Ceremonial Candelabrum: Whenever Victor pounces a survivor, they will be inflicted with the Mangled effect for 75 seconds. •Cat’s Eye: Whenever Charlotte hits a survivor during Enrage mode, they need to mend 3 seconds longer. -Enraged mode last 5 seconds longer Baby Teeth: Increase the maximum distance at which Victor can pounce by 4 meters. •Weighty Rattle: Removing Victor from a survivor by any means inflicts Broken for 25 Seconds. (buff by 5 seconds) So this works even when you recall Victor from an attached survivor as well •Stale Biscuit: Whenever a survivor kicks Victor, they will suffer from Oblivious for 40 Seconds. •Sewer Sludge: Whenever Victor is attached to a survivor, they will be hindered by 3% until he is removed. •Spinning Top: Whenever Victor is attached onto a survivor, press the *active ability* button so he will jump on any nearby survivors within a 7 meter range if they are in his line of sight. -This will cause affected survivors to be injured. •Drop of Perfume: While Victor is attached to a Survivor, they can only slow or medium vault.

[@Ellisika]

I wonder if making victor grapple on to healthy and injured survivors and then polishing Charlotte’s recovery when switching and her general clunkiness would make them more fun to play.

[@Cabbage1337]

Yeah as one of those few Twins mains, this is absolutely insane. I genuinely would have been pretty happy to just have the number tweaks to reduce the clunkiness, and giving Charlotte the haste. But having Victor be able to just go after everyone for free injures or down one person in seconds is absolutely ridiculous

[@deadbydaylightdaily5455]

It should be: hitting a healthy survivor with Victor works just like what is in this PTB. Hitting injured survivors would work as if the survivor was healthy as right now (Live), but now with injured, then the survivor suffers from incapacitated, exhausted and hindered whilst having Victor on their back. They can't remove Victor until Charlotte calls him back, a timer expire or Victor is removed by a teammate. I think it could be a better change.

[@clear8597]

as a twins player all we wanted was no bugs and faster swap speed. The haste is good to get to the slug faster but like not really needed,

[@Mr_Boss_Smile]

so only 2 killers out of 35 can be strong, gotcha

[@Trident_Gaming03]

Put a timer on how long you can use Victor (30 seconds, for example) Give a secondary ability to switch Charlotte and Victor's locations (60 seconds, for example) Now Victor is balanced by player skill and timing, and there's no more slugging or haste effect needed

[@zachsmith4473]

When I get tunneled I usually go play Twins to be as evil as possible

[@Perseus-444]

The devs need to change twins into a killer that incentivizes long range pounces because that’s what has counterplay for survivors, to fix this bhvr rework I would reduce Vic’s speed by 10-15% and make it so he has a 5 second hit cooldown, but increase pounce range. Another idea I have although it’s kind of a fever dream, would be so that Vic doesn’t have any restricted yaw when using g his pounce so that he can do some crazy shit and just over most loops in the game and be unpredictable asf, it would be easily counterable because if you hear him using his power but he’s not behind you he’s probably going for something crazy which would be so fun. For the people that don’t know Vic has a mechanic where he dies when he finishes his mission cooldown when on something he shouldn’t be on

[@Nagashworshiper]

The fact it took them multiple years to make this change and it makes them worst is worrying. Its almost feels like homework they forgot to do and did it last minute.

[@AnotherDempsey]

I literally called this second I read the patch notes last week 🙄😒

[@Rebazar]

Not sure why they couldn't have just done the number buffs and left out the change on how Victor works

[@joshualighttime604]

I feel like the biggest problem with twins is the fact their power so complicated to balance because of the way Victor is designed. You either made him a joke like release, a huge slugger like now or a god like monster in the ptb. Really in order to make twins actually fun. Behavior will need to completely rework twins from scratch and i mean a big rework like freddy.

[@mikhailjordanov5863]

They should keep all the changes except for when victor laches on you while healthy, he should hold on to the survivor but with a deep wound, so if a survivor decides to take victor hostage, victor will eat up their endurance just like old legion which results in a down, so they have to get rid of him and while they are doing that, they have the ability to make some distance which is the supposed counterplay to this killer.

[@themr_wilson]

The answer is simple: Give Trapper all his traps at the beginning and have Makeshift Wrap be basekit. Make the addon give a 60sec Blind debuff after getting freed. Have the Trapper Sack addon give Broken for 90sec and see their aura for 3sec after freed. BOOM! Twins fixed