The Twist That SHOCKED The Sly Cooper Community

[@stefanloncar6868]

Like I said in that poll Better twist of Black Knight should have been Sir Raleigh Cause he is machinist( he made Storm Machine in Sly 1) He speaks English accent There are frogs in medieval world And his hat is in vault of Of Mice and Mechs

[@Wade9Swade]

That's what I was thinking too.

[@kidprime6863]

That DEFINITELY would've been better. And while we're at it, let's say he was Penelope's old mentor.

[@aidenliveandreloaded2522]

Just gave me the idea of a Penelope vs. raleigh boss fight

[@BernieTheDevastator]

Honestly I never thought of that. I always appreciate new ideas but I give even more respect when it’s a really good one. Good job dude 👍👍👍

[@heatherlutz2102]

What if Clock-la's consciousness survived in the remaining Clockwerk eye and Bentley kept it without realizing? And what if Penelope was researching the eye as a side project while building the time machine with Bentley and Clock-la used that as an opportunity to slowly hypnotize her over time to set in motion a chain of events to ensure Clockwerk would exist and to eventually regain a new body?

[@richardsavolainen944]

Then that would make the ending of Sly 2 completely pointless if they were to resurect clockwerk yet again. Plus its lazy. Just make a new villain

[@heatherlutz2102]

@@richardsavolainen944 yet the Clockwerk eye was a safe treasure in the Clan of the Cave raccoon and it's info blurb said it was the only piece that survived. You could also have Neyla as Clock-la get a new cyborg looking body and she could team up with past Clockwerk and Sly would have to defeat them both. Does that sound ok? Clockwerk seeing Neyla's robotic body and getting beaten by Sly but escaping back into his own time could inspire him to become a robot in the first place.

[@kidprime6863]

Ooooooor, What if Le Paradox used Clockwerk's remaining eye to hypnotize Penelope to not only do his bidding but make her hate Sly? Clockwerk gets his power from jealousy and hate, so we could say that there's a part of Penelope deep down that hates Sly for disbanding the gang by leaving and is jealous that he's in charge of the gang while her and Bentley are the brains of the operation. Kinda like Dr. M. As for how her hatred for Sly leaving to gang and making them disband holds water. First off, she hates that the fact that she was recruited to join a gang of thieves who were going to disband in the end. It felt like a waste as if she was recruited under the false pretense of going on a lot of capers with them. Now the second part is what afterwards. She and Bentley were left to toil away with their gizmos while guarding Sly's family treasures in the name of true love. But after the "honeymoon phase" ended, Bentley became too coped up in his time machine project to pay attention to her. She saw this as an obsession and no matter what she tried to do, she couldn't convince him otherwise. Thus, she blames Sly for ruining everything by leaving the gang to be with some cop and for Bentley not moving on from it, driving him into building a time machine to find out. As for her believing Bentley was "brainwashed" by Sly was because of her inability to convince Bentley to move on from him and start a new gang with her. And instead of wanting to build weapons, she wanted to become a cybercriminal mastermind.

[@matthewkepper3573]

As someone who grew up with the series and waited the 8 year gap between the third and fourth game, it never even occurred to me that Penelope would betray the gang. I always thought she was content with leaving her old life behind and starting new with Bentley. After all, the entire theme of Honor Among Thieves is to let go of the past and move forward. That being said, I'm like 90% sure Sanzaru didn't have any of that in mind and wanted a twist just for the shock value. Thinking about it, it would have made more sense for Dimitri to steal the plans rather than Penelope. He's more sleazy and underhanded by nature. But by this point it's been 10 years. I really don't care about the twist anymore. It happened and all i want is to see it resolved.

[@gracekim25]

And we don’t know much about her😅

[@Logamer-tn6db]

I could see the betrayal happening, but only for a much better reasoning than given in the game. She was a crime boss before the gang after all.

[@BernieTheDevastator]

@@Logamer-tn6db I wasn’t shocked either cuz the game literally gave u FOUR hints. (Or at least three I noticed) 1) the timing of her disappearance and the book changing 2) the blackboard next to the very first computer hack. There is a sketch of the time blimp and the design is similar to Bentleys 3) the black baron note in the loading screen. Such a random fact on its own unless she’s pulling something again. 4)BIGGEST HINT THE INSIGNIA NOT ONLY ON THE BLACK KNIGHTS CHEST IN GAME AND IN CUTSCENE, BUT ALSO IN THE BLIMP DURING CARMELITAS CUTSCENE IN THE WESTERN CHAPTER. WTF KINDA “SHOCK” ARE PLAYERS SUPPOSED TO FEEL WHEN U GIVE THEM HINTS TO SEE IT A MILE AWAY????

[@ganumon1984]

I didn’t mind Penelope being the twist villain, but that scrapped Mole villain would’ve been a lot interesting instead. Plus, it would be a great idea to give Penelope a redemption arc and the Mole Villain would have more personality in Sly 5.

[@gracekim25]

Hmm 🤔 I will keep this in mind 😊

[@jakedewg.m4708]

Keep Penelope as the twist but that mole could have been like in the Egypt level that never came in the game I'm not saying it was unfinished but know sly stuck in Egypt It's the series ever to be picked up they got a finish they gotta pick it up from where it left off sly in Egypt Because that Mole looked like he has a drill he could have been drilling in Egypt I would really like to see that game have a good ending with sly and Carmelita are together and they settled down and have a couple kids

[@gracekim25]

I’m hoping to eventually write a sly 5 story after I finish sly 4😅

[@kidprime6863]

​@@jakedewg.m4708Or keep the mole and have him be an old colleague and rival to Penelope who is holding one of her relatives hostage. Better yet, keep Penelope a twist but give her a more personal desire to team up with Le Paradox like using the time machine to save someone close to her.

[@Shadowdancer_Gaming]

Hello! And thank you for uploading. Always love the Sly content.

[@VtnVivi]

Glad you enjoy the content, thanks for tuning in!

[@njfox3305]

I'd like to think Penelapie is under the influence of Clockwork useing her inteligence to turn Clockwork in to a paradox building him in the past under his instruction from the future turning the Clockwork idea in to a time loop like the song on storms its has no begining or end it just gose around and round paster to future, future to past add infinitum. I think I had this idea before Clockwork living on through Penelapie as his puppet.

[@slycooper4506]

Someday when I get another game, I hope that Penelope will seek redemption.

[@kidprime6863]

It better. And they better provide a better explanation for her betrayal.

[@SrLipetorrada]

My problem with Penelope being a villain is: > She is a twist villain > Reason: ...

[@SrLipetorrada]

Even when she tries to explain the reason she is a villain it just doesnt make sense lmao

[@kidprime6863]

Her reason is to build to build weapons and make money. Why? Because the plot demanded it.

[@TylerTheShepherd]

Wouldn’t be the first time an ally in a video game goes bad but was later revealed to be brainwashed. In fact sanzaru did this in two other games they did. Ratchet in “Secret Agent Clank” and Shadow in “Sonic Boom Shattered Crystal.”

[@endamcnabola]

I sometimes envision a different scenario where Penelope had a twin brother who had the same IQ but none of the morals, so he stole Bentley's plans form her and sold out to LeParadox.

[@kidprime6863]

Or maybe she sold them out to Le Paradox because she wants to go back in time to save her parents

[@slycooper4506]

I have to admit even I was surprised I mean, I knew Penelope kind of had a bad side to her but I never thought she would just go full on bad guy.

[@BernieTheDevastator]

They give us super obvious hints. I had suspicions but I saw it coming before I even finished the western chapter. Her insignia on the blimp and on the knight are so obvious.

[@kidprime6863]

Plus, people take into account of her former identity as the Black Baron as a factor. But the whole point of her Black Baron persona was to bypass the Holland Dogfighting League's strict age requirements. It was only after winning a few tournaments and the Black Baron becoming a celebrity made don the disguise more and more often. Back then, she never wanted conquest or crime, she just wanted to be a champion. She may have acted like the ruler of that village but that was only because she wanted to make no other teams sabotaged each other. Though she wasn't above of cheating herself.

[@TylerTheShepherd]

Especially since guru was okay with her. He requested to check each cooper members to come to him to check them out spiritually before busting out and joining them. If there was anything wrong with her initially guru should have noticed.

[@Golagawolgrag]

I was not expecting when Penelope turn on The Cooper Gang Like That.

[@ShadowDeathBlade93]

A redemption arc would be interesting as games need do need time of not being rushed at all

[@NathanCalabria]

When I first played Sly 3 and saw Penelope I kind of liked her a lot. I thought she was cute, fun, sweet and a genius. It just bugs me to see my favorite good guys change into bad guys. If there is ever a Sly 5 I sure hope Penelope will come to her senses and help the Cooper gang once again. What if you're right though? Maybe Penelope has been brainwashed. That may have also pointed out when Bentley said La Paradox is controlling Penelope like a puppet. She was possessed by hatred, anger and vengeance for no good reason. If only we could see that Penelope is still on the side of good, that would've made the game more interesting. But making her into a villain. That's not likely for her to change. And between you and me, I think this was Sanzaru games' idea, not the original creator's. It just doesn't seem right.

[@Logamer-tn6db]

I feel like at least a little hate, anger, or frustration would be appropriate for her. She had just joined the gang in Sly 3, where she finally managed to get out of the alias of the Black Baron, and immediately after her first job with the gang, Sly goes and pretends to have amnesia to be with Carmelita for 3 YEARS, leaving the gang high and dry. I could understand a former crime boss going a little stir crazy or frustrated with Bently for not doing anything other than making the time machine, rather than doing their own heists or something else. If it was me, after a few years I also wouldn't have expected Sly to have come out of his little retirement. (Plus a little hypnotism from miss decibel to make that frustration into proper hate so she'd have a reason to betray them)

[@TylerTheShepherd]

Course it was Sanzaru’s idea, sucker punch created Penelope to be a love interest for deuteragonist Bentley because their two of a kind. Not to mention sanzaru initially planned Penelope to remain a protagonist with some mole being the antagonist.

[@BrennySpain]

I know I sat this every time, but I honestly don’t know how you do it. Sly Cooper content on this channel is literally never ending at this point! Honestly, there’s no competition at this point.

[@geardog24]

It was a huge insult to the series. It honestly felt like the writers couldn’t handle two decent female characters joining the Cooper Gang (Even though Carmelita never officially joined).

[@TylerTheShepherd]

Yeah that’s a problem most people have, they try to rush the redemption arc and be achieved in a moment which makes it unbelievable. Not to mention they expect Penelope to all of a sudden change personalities again just to be on the team when they could have Penelope take advantage of the sly situation in order to get close to her boyfriend Bentley and influence him into seeing things her way but in the end she gets influenced by him.

[@kidprime6863]

I, on the other hand, want her to get a good redemption arc. Maybe reveal her real motivations were because she didn't like Bentley obsessing over building a time machine to find out whether or not Sly will come back. So much that it made him ignore her. She thought it was unhealthy and wanted Bentley to move on as Sly left to be with woman he loves. She even tried to convince him to create a new gang to continue their life of crime but failed. So she wanted to fix everything at the source: Sly Cooper himself. Her working with Le Paradox could help her alter and influence Bently's history without Sly involved so she and Bentley can become a cyber-criminal couple. And have the whole thing with wanting to build weapons and make money be a lie as she probably planned to double-cross Le Paradox.

[@Shadowdancer_Gaming]

Side track but, I have a concept idea if there were to be a Sly 5. Sly with no time machine and no way to get a hold of his friends, gradually gets pulled into times revolving around his family. (Referring to his ancestors having a limited amount of time in the present at the end of sly 4. Only in Slys case since there’s no time machine to keep him grounded in a specific time.) As a result of Sly going around unguided (by his friends) small changes in the time line appear, which Bentley can trace but not quite keep up with. Bentley tries to rebuild the time machine with Murry and surprisingly Carmelita. All the while Penelope is trying to prevent sly’s return and Carmelita’s (new boss?) gets suspicious.

[@Leopez02]

Sanzaru Games RUINED The queen of radiocontrolled cars and Bentley's "Girlfriend" Penelope. Those Penelope's logos are her signs for Bentley where she could be. There's much reasons like that Penelope thing and Missing Sly why Sly 5 NEED to happen! 😢❤

[@Nights-gh2hn]

If I were to rewrite the story to Sly 4, I would do the Red X route (like the Teen Titans (2003)). Penelope disguises herself as the Black Knight (wearing a different yet cool suit) to gain the trust of the main villain. While also keeping this a secret from the Cooper Gang. And when the truth is revealed, Penelope would have to try and redeem herself to earn back the trust of Sly, Murray, and especially Bentley. In a later game or story, she and the Cooper Gang would face someone who stole the suit and became the new Black Knight. And like Red X, this Black Knight will never be revealed. They will always be a mystery, It's probably not the best idea, but that's just an idea for fun.

[@BernieTheDevastator]

Honestly. Penelope wasn’t that much a shock for me. First off all as the timing. She disappeared at the same time the pages of the book stared disappearing. Not even a time skip like “2 months after she disappeared, this happened” there’s no way those two things happened at about the same time and there no related. 2, the blackboard in the sewer When Bentley goes to do the very first computer hack of the game (the museum job) next to the computer is a drawing of the time Blimp. It’s design is similar to the van. A vehicle with a giant clock strapped up to it. 3- the otherwise random and useless note in the loading screen where they mention the black baron 4, BIGGEST SIGN an emblem that looked like Penelope in Carmelita’s flashback cutscene during the Wild West chapter. Next to leParadox is literally her insignia.

[@mrlol7503]

Thanks for the video VTNVIVI ^^ As for the twist, I don’t mind the idea of putting a twist, but the problem with the Penelope’s one is there’s no build-up to it, no tease or having some villainous schemes and even in 3. I would’ve loved to see the Mole character instead and that Mole may have a connection to Bentley and/or Penelope in the past, and if you ask me the real twist, it should’ve been a build-up for Le Paradax's backstory more and his connection the Sly’s family. As for the wild question, yeah I could see one of Bentley’s family could take that in a very emotional way. As for what I think for Penelope in the next game, I think Penelope will have a redeemed and redemption arc, and what makes it that a highly likely to happen is this quote from Penelope's Sly Wiki "After the Le Paradox incident, Penelope's true character is a mystery, as it has been hinted that she came to regret her choices and still holds feelings for Bentley." And also, here’s a fanfic thread for a Sly Cooper 5 from someone in Twitter/X post it, he’s almost on the final act I think I asked him what his inspiration, he said it’s Sly’s endgame and culmination from 1 to 5 (doesn’t mean death) Fan-Fic: x.com/mql283/status/1510652219254874112?s=20 Her wiki: slycooper.fandom.com/wiki/Penelope So what do you think, VTNVIVI? ^^

[@erichousley448]

The better twist is Bentley's brother or sister joining them. All because there mad at him for running away from home like that. They would feel betrayed all these years

[@kidprime6863]

And that was only because he was nearsighted and couldn't see where he was going.

[@CommentingCommenter]

I wasn't a big fan of the twist as it did come out of nowhere. Plus having a "newer" character that hasn't appeared in years turn evil out of nowhere is likely something no one wanted to see after all that time. If a Sly 5 does happen, hopefully the writers can fix it. I do agree that the brainwash theory would be the best way to explain Penelope turning evil while also being a good way to have Penelope go through the game as a villain at first, but then snaps out of it and throughout the rest of the game tries to redeem herself to the others, especially Bentley. However I think Clockwerk being behind the brainwashing would make for a better reveal and overall lead to an interesting story.

[@ryand5509]

See, I thought it might be better for the black knight to be an older Bentley from a future where he and Sly fell out like Dr. M and Sly’s Father. Would play with the time travel themes and make Sly and Bentley have to confront a potential future where their friendship ends.

[@kidprime6863]

Now there's an idea could've worked

[@M567dk]

I rather have the explanation of this be that she was brainwashed into doing this after being caught in an emotional vulnerability. Definitely deeply emotional and flawed, but I don’t think she would be doing this willingly.

[@zacheckert95]

I would love to see it come full circle where she goes to far with her technology where she is the one responsible for creating clockwerk and the hate chip. Maybe even she gets absorbed into the hate chip. I could write so much more.

[@kelleninouye4815]

VTNVIVI, i have a new question that I wanted to run by you on the Mask of Dark Earth, on why The Mask of Earth during episode 2 of Sly temporary possessed the miners and Carmalita.what made the Mask decide to possess them as it's never explained, thank you.

[@MatthewDickendasher]

I still believe she was hypnotized by the Mrs Desibel

[@kidprime6863]

I believe Le Paradox hypnotized her with Clockwerk's Eye. Could explain why she hates Sly all of a sudden.

[@MatthewDickendasher]

@@kidprime6863 well I think that as well based on Le Paradox was seductive towards Mrs Desibel

[@MatthewDickendasher]

@@kidprime6863 by that I totally agree Le paradox used the eye on Penelope! That would make Mrs Desibel his first victim

[@spystar18]

I think I prefer this over what happened. I liked Penelope and kinda felt bad for Bentley.

[@grantdaily9662]

I hated seeing Penelope as a villain again, it felt like it took all of her character from 3 after her Baron arc and put it ib tge garbage

[@gracekim25]

Er…😅

[@kidprime6863]

It's more like a cheap rehash of Dr. M

[@gracekim25]

Unfortunately um i didn’t get to actually experience it as a twist: the episode title, the black knight’s voice disguise that gave away its a female…I figured it out before Bentley 😅 so I didn’t feel shock when he did, i felt annoyed by how QUICK I figured it out!😳 and even then it …was a bit too obvious (at least for me 🤷‍♀️) I like twists but I’m not sure if this was well executed

[@Seacat17]

That Sly on the thumbnail is so adorable.

[@ironkeysora]

Idea for new game: either retcon thieves of time or even set after idc which, and have the villains be Bentley who was feeling like a third wheel and slys mom teaming up for some evil plan, maybe even the resurrection of clockwerk

[@WolfmanArt]

Penelope's twist could have been done better, not gonna lie. As intelligent as she is, could she really have been that easily coerced by Le Paradoux?

[@gracekim25]

One of the things they could have done is do the set up better, maybe don’t have her level include the word MICE, have the black knight have a much deeper voice so the twist actually lands, hint at what lead Penelope to this point and tie it to the black baron persona with the black knight etc

[@TylerTheShepherd]

Forget coerced, is it even possible for her to just give some stranger a Time Machine. Stuff like this makes the brainwashing theory more logical.

[@gracekim25]

@@TylerTheShepherd mmm true

[@BrennySpain]

The game awards isn’t that far away either. Hopefully we get some sort of Spyro announcement there. I have a feeling something is going to happen there. What do you think?

[@TheAlaskanDude]

I wasn't mad about it but should've been written better like if Ms desiple hypno her to hate sly or along those lines

[@sevenequalsoneheart6710]

As i had said numerous times....sorry for being a broken record. But a game following Carmelita, enlisting the Cooper Gang's help to find Sly, would be perfect to incorporate the Penelope redemption arc. Granted the true cause of her betrayal would technically have come out of nowhere but could still help serve the plot. The plot which could go something like this: Driven by her determination to find Sly and bring him home, Carmelita Montoya Fox has impressed her superiors with her recent string of arrests of criminals the world over. They give her a promotion that essentially lets her act as a spy (well more secret agent) for Interpol granting her the ability to investigate criminal lairs without a warrant. Her first mission is to locate and arrest the thief behind the disappearance and even destruction of ancient egyptian artifacts across the world. As she is about to locate one of the main artifacts she runs into Murray and Bentley whom think they have discovered a clue to Sly's whereabouts, but with the recent destruction of Egyptian Artifacts they cannot use the time machine to travel to the past and investigate. The game would follow Carmelita and the Cooper Gang working together to locate the artifacts. One of which, Sly's father had stolen, meaning it is somewhere deep within the Cooper Vault that Bentley and Penelope had worked so hard to rebuild. After the events of Sly 3. When they arrive they discover that Penelope had taken it over and is wearing the artifact that Sly's father had stolen, the size to the audience is rather small and easy to hide on someone's person. They reach a chamber that was still in the process of repair as it houses an entire library of Journal Entries for the Thievious Raccoonus that never made it into the final copy and one of the last entries that Sly's dad wrote was that, the artifact was rumored to let anyone who looks at it in direct sunlight a glimpse of their future. It was a fascinating fairy tale to those whom hadn't been through what the Cooper Gang had been through and they were determined to steal it. after stealing the artifact, he let Dr. M appraise it's value so it could be properly stored in the Cooper Vault. But during their next mission, Dr. M had a strange shift in his personality. Asking questions about the cooper vault that even he couldn't answer and becoming more obsessed with getting inside. Sly's father had a suspicion that the artifact had shown Dr. M a vision and had to break the Honorable Thieves code, to not steal from your own, to get to the bottom of why a good friend had changed so much. The vision he witnessed would be bits and pieces of Sly's adventures throughout the first 3 games and end with what looks like Dr. M overpowering Sly, deep within the Cooper Vault. This includes his and Mrs. Cooper's deaths in the hands of the fiendish 5. The entry ends with him returning the artifact to M and cutting ties with him to protect his future son. This hints at the idea that Dr. M had the artifact on him when he perished inside the Cooper Vault and Penelope got a vision from it that is driving her to obsession. This gives Bentley pause as we get more details on their time rebuilding the Cooper Vault between the end of Sly 3 and Penelope's disappearance in Sly 4. Bentley knows Penelope kept a video diary and Carmelita goes to retrieve it hoping it had details on the vision Penelope recieved. And it is revealed that the vision foresaw Bentley taking their relationship to the next level having been impressed by some sort of out of view invention that Penelope never got a chance to see before the vision ended. So the only way to stop her was to make the vision come true and have Carmelita snag the Artifact. But because of it's track record of driving those who recieve its initial vision to obsession the artifact had to be destroyed. Which not only lifts the curse but also closes another avenue of rescuing Sly through. Penelope and Bentley do not immediately repair their relationship but they do agree to welcome the idea when the time is right since she had a lot to make up for. The Cooper Gang do eventually discover the culprit behind the initial thefts of the Egyptian Artifacts, the Culprit being Dark Sly who is trying to trap the real Sly in the past by having reckless villains destroy and misuse the artifacts thus rendering them useless to Bentley's Time Machine. After beating him and pushing back Clockwerk through a boss battle that runs parallel to the final boss battle in Sly 5 where sly works with the Slytunkhamen family to send a message to Sly's friends letting them know when he is in the timeline. Does the Artifact Penelope and Dr. M use to recieve visions come out of nowhere? Yes. But depending on how well the writers of a hypothetical Carmelita Game know the Sly Cooper Series and how good they are at their jobs as writers, i do not think that this scenario would retcon anything and could perhaps fix the rushed penelope betrayal twist in Sly 4. It is not impossible to make the idea work for the better. It just requires a skilled writing team who know the series inside and out

[@IRVDawg]

:OO

[@sevenequalsoneheart6710]

@@IRVDawg i assume you are intregued?

[@sevenequalsoneheart6710]

​@@IRVDawgi assume you like the idea? I repeat using nonHomestar Runner references.

[@kidprime6863]

A very intriguing idea to say the least. But I wonder why Penelope would want to turn evil because the future said so. Wouldn't she want to prevent that? This is why learning about the future is dangerous. You might not like what you see.

[@sevenequalsoneheart6710]

@@kidprime6863 all she would see would be glimpses of her future. Not a lot of the context that leads to the future. And the idea of Bentley wanting their relationship to be taken to the next level because of an invention she never got to see in the vision would be enough to set her down a path of obsession to try and make a reality. The visions would be like Raven's visions from that's so Raven. Bits and pieces that provide little context to how it will eventually happen. I hope i am making sense

[@coolmool237]

Looks like Sly to me

[@stefanloncar6868]

Before Abby in Last of Us 2 We got this

[@lyinginertia]

LMAO

[@AH-is5yg]

I would like Penelope to have a redemption arc and also reveal she was brainwashed the whole time.

[@grandon183]

I personally would love it if the writers came up with a way for the contessa to be the one mind controlling Penelope. Sly 2 had her become an estate agent what if she found out about Bentley's time machine? What if she was the main villain of sly 5?

[@AH-is5yg]

@@grandon183 that would have been a good twist showing that Contessa was behind it.

[@BernieTheDevastator]

Ngl. I was respectfully disagreeing with The brainwashing thing until the other guy mentioned contessa. That’s actually a perfect way and maybe the only way that can work. 👏👏

[@grandon183]

@@BernieTheDevastator I thought about it further what if the Contessa's post credit scene was canon where she became an estate agent. She could use her power to sell hideouts to criminals she could the use her money to set up spyware in these criminal hideouts sell the valuable information she collects to the highest bidder. She could then build up this secret criminal spy ring get revenge on the cooper gang by spying on them find out about the time machine from an agent spying on Bentley and Penelope. She would then use a brainwashed Penelope to manipulate Le paradox to suit her own schemes.

[@grandon183]

@@BernieTheDevastator Another idea I had would be that Sly goes back in time to help his ancestor Thaddeus Winslow Cooper which I think is Victorian England I found out Jean Bison was alive at the same time as this ancestor so what if Thaddeus and Jean were enemies? We could see how Jean Bison was frozen and ended up thawing by the events of Sly 2. If Jean Bison had encountered Sly in the past and learned from his mistakes it would make sense how he was able to find the cooper hideout he could have learned from his past mistakes.

[@jonathanwald8858]

I think sly 4 deserves a proper remake or reimagined story🤦‍♂🤦‍♂🤦‍♂

[@puppydawg-vb1mu]

This is why this game need to comeback

[@slyclay04]

i am surprise like you man i wish they more stuff with her i hope we know more in sly 5

[@MythicSuns]

1:36 the one next to Decibel honestly looks too much like a Dimitri knock off so I can see why they weren't kept in.

[@Tabaqui167]

In Sly 5 Penelope could be a great villain because she knows to make a time machine. She could attack Sly in ancient Egypt!

[@BrennySpain]

To this day the post credits scene of thieves in time when Penelope escaped from jail and leaving Bentley strange postcards. I really do wonder what that was all about?

[@gracekim25]

Hmm 🤔 I haven’t even finished the game and I get the sense it’s her inviting Bentley on a chase to catch her….gives me a anti-hero vibe

[@BrennySpain]

@@gracekim25 yeah that’s what I’m thinking. It would logically make the most sense.

[@kidprime6863]

Either to taunt him that it's not over or to lure him into finding her

[@BrennySpain]

@@kidprime6863 yeah perhaps?

[@gracekim25]

And the level you’re covering is the very one I’m trapped in because of that darn target mission 😅😣 anyway hi Vivi 👋🙂

[@VtnVivi]

Hiii :D

[@TheBlackOtaku]

If there’s one thing I hate about sly Cooper 4 is I absolutely hate the idea of Penelope being a villain.

[@TheBoneHeadClan]

Wow. I never knew about that alternate backstory. Crazy stuff you can get from outside material. I wouldn't truly consider anything not in the games canon though. Even the comic with McSweeny doesn't completely match up with Sly 3.

[@MetalFreezer3000]

Penelope in Sly 4 feels like a completly different character from Sly 3 tbh, I get the stuff when she was the Black Baron, but she still had a bit of a character arc after that, hell, she even had a Crush on Sly at first before she started developing feelings for Bentley I think the Brainwash thing could be the only way arround to bring the character back to where she was in Sly 3, It could also tie to Clockwerk potentially returning as Penelope's sudden hate towards Sly could be a way to fuel Clockwerk's Hate, which is what kept him alive in the first place I also have the theory that she has a Twin Sister (With the same intelect as her at least) that worked for Le Paradox and supplanted her identity to damage Penelope's relationship with the Cooper Gang

[@TigerShark-o3e]

Don’t you guys think that sanzaru didn’t intended for Penelope’s betrayal to be taken serious. The game has the tone of a Saturday morning cartoon and in their side game Bentley’s Hackpack, sanzaru has Penelope on an advertising poster in a can can dress. Not to mention right after the defeated Penelope, the cooper gang acted their usual selves, sort of.

[@pyrotechnique2143]

Sly 2 betrayal was way better

[@Jak_The_Eco_Warri0r.]

What if Neyla comes back in a new Sly Cooper sequel?! Man she was messed up when she used that clockwork robot at Sly.

[@Nightmare-kn6ee]

I definitely feel like Penelope could of ended up being Hypnotized although I feel this is how the events would of happened leading to her being hypnotized, she of course would end up getting captured while away from her and Bentley's lab, the reason for why she left could be because she had to get some parts time machine or that, when she would get captured by Le Paradox who would try and force her to help him build his own time machine. Of course she would refuse which would lead to Paradox having Ms. Decibel try multiple times to hypnotize Penelope, when that doesn't work because of Penelope's strong will or high IQ or that Le Paradox would then try using The Clockwerk eye to try hypnotize her as he could amplify the hypnosis power of the eye. After that doesn't work Le Paradox would then decide that they need to try hypnotizing her with a stronger method, that being Skunk Spray which he probably could of made by exctracing enough DNA from Ms Decible's tears which to add to the Skunk Spray. which if inhaled would go through your lungs and into your brain hypnotizing you that way which might last longer, at least that could explain why you see a bunch of barrels full of a green liquid through each different time period and not many Rats with gas Mask. and why the guards would be willing to listen to El Jeffe, Grizz and the others for so long and why they would attack the Cooper Gang on sight. You could also say that's why you don't see Penelope or the silhouette of the Black Knight and why she hates Sly is because she was forced to, or after having been Hypnotized they then use the Clockwerk eye on Penelopy to make sure she has a burning hatred towards Sly. TL;DR Le Paradox kidnapps Penelope and tries having Ms Decibel hypnotize her, when that doesn't work he extracts Dna from Ms Decibel's tears to use in his Skunk Spray to make sure Penelope obeys his every command, he could then use the Clockwerk eye to seal the deal on the hypnosis that way Penelope wouldn't remember having been hypnotized, and she thinks she's doing this because of her hatred towards Sly.

[@mcpootis7796]

Even playing Thieves in Time as a kid this twist felt dumb and shoved in. I guess it’s because I was never super big on her and Bentley as characters but her motivation for turning on the Cooper Gang and assisting in tearing them down during and after(?) Thieves in Time makes no sense. I don’t know how I’d work with that forced character shift in a hypothetical Sly 5 without it being a jarring retcon or writing her out all together lol.

[@TheBasedTyrant]

What they should have done is had all of the villains be from their own respective time period and aided by Le Paradox in order to overcome their respective Cooper ancestor. Then Sanzaru could focus on character development for the ancestors (who didn't get any) and not have a bunch of petty or in this case ridiculous drama amongst the modern cast who have all had plenty of much better character development already. Alternatively the way I would rework Penelope as a villain is very simple. She was brainwashed by Ms. Decibel who is conveniently their next opponent, let's bring Penelope along so she can confront her along with the rest of the gang. This is a very obvious decision they could have gone with. What they went with instead doesn't so much surprise me as it does confuse and anger me, because it is a blatant retcon of Penelope as a character that they don't even try to justify. I'm supposed to believe that the 2nd smartest person on earth along with Bentley the smartest person, was gifted the entire Cooper family fortune by the now retired Sly Cooper, and her first thought was "I'm going to wipe out Sly's entire bloodline so that I can convince his best friend to help me on my true passion, making weapons of mass destruction." I'd say this is the stupidest thing I could think of but I literally can't think of it, I just get this really intense migraine whenever I try, just writing this comment is making my head explode from having to acknowledge the existence of this "plot twist" which with the start of the next episode is completely dropped from the story along with Penelope into an active volcano.

[@brianwhite9339]

She gets her comeuppance in my fanfiction!!

[@TylerTheShepherd]

They can still “reveal” that she was brainwashed by decibel into being an enemy for the psychological trauma traitors cause. Providing of course they were allowed to make the sequel, or dlc content.

[@brianwhite9339]

@@TylerTheShepherd In my fanfiction she is being held hostage in the future By the Mysterious Theif The Riddler!

[@BrennySpain]

Crash team rumble season 3 is going to be amazing I think. Spyro is finally coming to the game at long last!

[@BrennySpain]

Video games make me so depressed nowadays! They’re not as good as what they once used to be and I know we can’t go back to back then, but there’s a reason why I like movies and TV shows a lot more.

[@IT-ry8xt]

I'm new to the series, played the games just this year, 2024, and I must say that Panelope plot was obvious but possbile to me, I just finished sly3, penelope was a red baron, not the nicest character on top of that she is smart, but still a criminal/thief. Betraying others for money is something I can see in her character, also she mentioned sly presence keep bentely back, maybe she is right, who knows if bentley would be a "good" guy if not for sly and the gang, and she wanted bentely to make weapons, and I would bet he would be rather good at it, considering his dart gun and bombs. Was it perfect? No, would I want it to be bentely brother? Nope, i did not pick up any info in game he have brothers, and that one of them is as smart.

[@Golagawolgrag]

Growlzagra made a video when he saw Penelope turn on them. He was like Gasp. What.

[@renamon5658]

Can you do a video on murray and bentely's backstory lore?

[@VtnVivi]

I believe I made one not too long ago? At least something close to it. Should be in that playlist somewhere :o

[@m488thunderbird3]

Hi Renamon565

[@SenseiIceman]

although i don't think she could've been brainwashed for long

[@MythicSuns]

6:14 the only issue with that poll is that only a small percentage of your fanbase voted in it which means it doesn't accurately portray what your entire fanbase wants to see; you have 45.7k subscribers on KZbin but only 2.2k voted in the poll, and that's assuming that everyone who voted is a fan of your channel (some of the voters might just be randoms who stumbled upon your poll in the community tab of your channel). To be clear, my issue is only with the maths; I'm not trying to stir up drama or anything like that.

[@VtnVivi]

Regardless of the number of votes, it still manages to give us a general idea :)

[@mitchellcook6443]

I liked it and I liked they stuck it and didn’t switch her back to good

[@thonysrnsen5104]

Wats if sly Mett general sau in Egypten and sly akamon and find a Way so Sly com back in time

[@Mightiee]

Mole villain in sly 5?

[@BIGwillTHEGAME]

I still play the original trilogy more than this game.

[@IRVDawg]

sly is the GOAT game series

[@gracekim25]

I’m not against her being bad again but um yeah 😅 this is precisely why I’m gonna try to flesh this out, have her be a anti-hero post Sly 4… really wish that twist had been um written better but i Iike the suggestions😊 Oh my I’m in a video 😮

[@BrennySpain]

So Vivi, what’s your next big video out of interest? Would it be something to do with Spyro the Dragon at all maybe? The game awards is coming up very soon and there’s a lot of rumours that we might get an official announcement of some sort. I mean he’ll be in crash team rumble very soon. All the pieces are starting to line up. What do you think overall?

[@ci7210]

Personally I like the idea of Penelope being a villian. She did some shady shit as the Black Baron. But her motivation didn't make sense. Would've prefered similar to Sly she went back to her old ways. That Sly and Bentley were ruining her potential. She was a crime boss and top pilot for awhile.

[@shawbag11]

it shocked the community cus they ruined a character for no reason and didnt even give her a redemption. like i spent the entire game after her betrayal thinking oh so she is gonna show up during the final fight and save the gang. but no she just disappears after that moment and there's 1 line of dialogue saying she kept leavening messages for Bentley. Like if they actuly gave her a redemption even if she never got back with bently it would have atleast given her a moment that felt like they ruined her character to give a cool last second switch flip but no.

[@gracekim25]

Redemptions can't be rushed though keep that in mind

[@BeyondtheRailz]

Do you remember when Penelope had a crush on Sly in Honor Among Thieves? What if she used the Time Machine to travel to another time just to see what would life be like for her and Sly? If she didn't like what she saw, then she tries to kill him anyway.

[@lunacryst5368]

I personally think Penelope could’ve been an incredible twist villain, the problem was the reveal/betrayal moment didn’t feel earned, if the devs had left more of a breadcrumb trail to hint at her face-heel turn whilst giving additional context for her motivations/reasoning behind betraying the gang it would have made the twist way more impactful… It’s an interesting theory that Ms Decibel may have brainwashed Penelope into doing Le Paradox’s bidding but I personally feel Penelope is too strong-willed to be brainwashed or too intelligent to fall victim to such a ploy unless she was caught off-guard which doesn’t seem that likely for a schemer such as her… It would have been very interesting to see her as Le Paradox’s “second-in-command” and potentially have her usurp him to become the main villain of Sly 4 as she was simply using him for his money and connections to further her own ambitions (although this might be seen as too similar to the Neyla/Arpeggio dynamic from Sly 2)… Potentially I’d love to see her help out the gang in rescuing Sly if Sly 5 does come to be, but she only agrees to help them at a price and they enter into an uneasy alliance with things weighted heavily in her favour 🤔

[@TylerTheShepherd]

Being strong willed or intelligent does make it difficult but not impossible. I thought that at first until I looked up other sanzaru games and saw that they did the brainwashing angle on ratchet, Amy, and shadow (Secret agent Clank and Sonic Boom Shattered Crystal). Ratchet has the same mechanical intellect as Penelope and shadow and Amy have stronger will than her. It’s okay to have an opinion but it shouldn’t get in the way of analyzing someone else’s work.

[@lunacryst5368]

I apologise if I sounded dismissive of that theory in my original post it’s definitively a distinct possibility that Penelope could have been hypnotised by Ms Decibel if she didn’t take any precautions to counter said ability, after all her hypnotism seemed absolute in the auditorium scene (no one was shown to resist it). It does seem to have it’s limitations though, it appears that if Decibel herself isn’t present and her targets don’t hear the hypnotic notes, she has to use another medium to enforce her hypnosis/mind control like the gramophone recordings in 40 Thieves. Technically she could have controlled Penelope in a similar way if she was wearing a device that was playing a recording e.g. like an earpiece, but we don’t see Penelope wearing any such device and she continues to act in the same way towards the gang even after Ms Decibel is taken down. However, it’s not implausible that Decibel could have brainwashed/manipulated Penelope whilst she was under hypnosis initially to warp her view of the Cooper gang and thereby turn her against them, it’s a shame we don’t have more evidence to go off in Sly 4, it would have made for a very intriguing plot thread 🤔

[@TylerTheShepherd]

@@lunacryst5368 actually as Bentley told sly while analyzing the gramophone devices, simply turning them off wasn’t enough because they risk being unable to come out of their trances, which is why we had those additional hacking missions instead of simply smashing the device. Which means it is possible for Penelope to still be brainwashed even without hypno music being played. Sanzaru went through a lot to explain Ms decibels hypnotic ability yet showed little involvement in the game besides getting crooks from another time period to forge documents for a different time period which is too excessive for something that could be simply done by hiring a forger, unless it was used as a setup for another twist/reveal for a future game that was planned.

[@lunacryst5368]

Yeah it almost seems like overkill for Le Paradox to use her to forge the documents to establish him as royalty when he could have used a competent forger (similar to Dimitri) to get the job done much more simply… Honestly it’s a shame the true potential of her ability wasn’t fully explored, her mass brainwashing potential is probably on a similar level to Contessa but with sound instead of light, logistically it would be easier for her to enforce mass brainwashing than needing the blimp for the “light show of hate” in Sly 2 since it removes the element of needing spice to heighten the emotional response those particular frequencies of light… Plus if she could hack into people’s phones and other electronics to play the hypnosis recording she would become a much more substantial and widespread threat 😅

[@sneakysnuck8481]

I have a theory involving Penelope and I don't want to post it on some toxic form so instead I'm going to post it in the comments of video Please don't be aggressive with my theory every theory has holes and I bet mine has plenty, also I pre-made this in a note app sorry if some things sound off Penelope is clockwerk theory So I was thinking about Sly Cooper, the characters, gameplay, and The Story, one thing always stuck out to me, Clockwerk, according to Sly he's a giant owl that's been alive for centuries replacing his body with mechanical parts It didn't make sense to me because in Sly 4 we see he already is mechanical My theory is that Clockwerk was never flesh but always a machine In Sly 2 we see Clockwerk functions on a hate chip, why would something that was once flesh need a chip like that? And anytime. That wasn't anywhere in the 21st century wouldn't be able to make it Who do we know that can make cyborg machinery and AI given the time period they are in has gone missing and has had a role as an antagonist before and hates Sly? None other than Penelope My theory is that Penelope is Clockwerk and if we ever got the Sly 4 DLC we would see Penelope creating a mechanical owl and a time machine so she may return to the present but Sly would stop her and send her all the way back to the beginning of time and he would go back to the present And Penelope growing in hatred for Sly extending to the Cooper family entirely growing in anger her voice changing over years with only one goal, Kill Sly Now you might think why wouldn't she kill Bob and be over with it? Because she's smart enough to know it would cause a spacetime paradox If Bob died none of the events of the games would ever happen but she would still be clockwerk creating a paradox strong enough it would implode on itself, So she bides her time to go after the one who sent her back to the past in the beginning, Sly And she doesn't know about Sly's past so she wouldn't know about Clockwerk from Sly she would only create an owl mech out of need to escape Why an Owl? Because I assume if we're going off of ancient Egypt Penelope would manipulate few slaves into creating an owl God they worship, most likely in an universe God and not any actual Egyptian gods And that concludes my theory Note: I know Sly 4 wasn't planned to be made when the trilogy ended but this theory really felt like it could be true, it's my theory not a fact

[@TylerTheShepherd]

I hate to break this to you but your theory could never come true because your refusing to accept that Clockwerk really did replaced his own body with robot parts as the game itself clearly stated. As unbelievably as it sounds, it’s not uncommon for evil geniuses in video games to do unbelievable things that make them turn to a life of crime and Clockwerk is no different even if it is the Stone Age. You might as well refuse to accept the fact that Bentley and Penelope actually made a time machine at all, which was never possible to begin with. Besides, even if it is possible to fill in the holes of this disproven theory, it’s not going to give us anything except a long winded character assassination of not just playable character Penelope but also that of supervillain Clockwerk himself.

[@SenseiIceman]

Great job vivi

[@Rabbitwolfotsutsuki]

If I see sly5 if Penelope gets redeem how would Bentley an Murray and Carmelita an sly feel after what she did in sly4 an sly3 when she pulled those under cover schemes an I didn't know if Penelope was goin to be a good in sly3 through sly4 or she was just playin nice an kind to hide her ture evil self an secrets in sly4

[@TylerTheShepherd]

She couldn’t hide anything in sly 3 with guru around. If guru was okay with Penelope, then she must be good initially.

[@Rabbitwolfotsutsuki]

​@@TylerTheShepherd thanks

[@crashslysonic777]

That thumbnail is amazing btw

[@CoffeeSuccubus]

I would of think it would of been a good twist if that wasn't Penelope, but the Mole instead, with the Real Penelope being wiped out of existance, and by defeating him, she returns back to existance.

[@crashslysonic777]

I was pleasantly surprised with the twist! I can't explain but before Thieves in Time was a thing, I had a strong distaste for Penelope in Sly 3, so when I found out about the betrayal, I was I guess you can say...satisfied?

[@user-jf4lt4uk7u]

she was the black baron, Nearly killed sly, then for some reason had the hots for sly only to instead shift towards bentley AFTER all the pirate shit….idk maybe the twist wasn’t that bad once you stop and look at everything a bit closer…

[@gracekim25]

@@user-jf4lt4uk7uyou know when you put it THAT way it kinda makes sense 😅but the twist still needed build up

[@zephon6745]

One scenario I thought of is Dr M still being alive since we never saw a body and he would build the time machine but he and Paradox would try to betray each other. Another scenario has Penelope being forced to create the machine for Paradox, but using her skills she would leave messages telling the team what era to go to next and information about the gang member and era. Any robots that Paradox goons had would be the Mole's robots.

[@ghost656metal8]

Isn't it time you start making different content, we're not getting a Sly 5

[@VtnVivi]

Even if we're not getting another game, I still enjoy talking about this series.

[@ghost656metal8]

@@VtnVivi Yeah i get you enjoy talking about this series, but you're just repeating everything

[@gracekim25]

@@ghost656metal8ok you might need to leave if you keep being this negative, mate

[@ghost656metal8]

@@gracekim25 You constantly telling me to leave is more negative than what I've said in any of my comments

[@gracekim25]

@@ghost656metal8Stop making me the bad guy, hypocrite 🤦‍♀️ you keep complaining and it’s annoying now. And no it’s not

[@darkmelody560]

Does Sly "NEED" to be the main character in Sly 5 though? What if Sly and Carmelita have a child and the child wants to learn more about their father? Penelope secretly helping them as a form of apology. Just an idea. ^-^

[@gracekim25]

Not necessarily