The Ugly Bullies - Why They Need to Go | Bowhunting Whitetails w/ Bill Winke

Dominance is not related to antler size, so often, the most dominant bucks in any herd are ones that no one really wants to shoot. These bucks survive to old age and are aggressive toward the other bucks in their range, often running them out. The bucks they chase off might well be ones that have the potential to produce bigger antlers. Not only is it a good idea to remove the ugly bullies whenever you can, it is also a lot of fun to hunt these old bucks.

[@alexpinnow6509]

Very interesting topic Bill! I have been very set on trying to only target mature bucks on a small family farm. None have broken 120" but they are at least 4yrs old and were great experiences. When the old ones have the largest antlers it's just a bonus

[@bill-winke]

That's right. The real challenge is in the age not the antler size. There is nothing inherently more intelligent about a buck with big antlers. He is just genetically "blessed" in that way. Age is the clear definition of a great buck. Good post.

[@seanmryncza4968]

Had one huge body narrow rack. Was just insanely aggressive. Be working in my woods or yard and he’d just come and check out what I was doing. Opening day in blind with my dad(his first deer hunt) he came in dogging a doe flying past , I grunted came running back 2 minutes later stopped 10ft from ground blind we were in.look at it a started grunting at us. He is no longer with us. Greatest hunting experience of my life to be with my dad for his first❤

[@kevinfowler6065]

Most excellent episode! A bow kill favorite of my own was such an old bully he responded to my grunting which caused his demise. Ps my youngest daughter has forever and still does start many conversations with me by saying “hey dad, I have a question”. Hearing J do that brings a smile!

[@bill-winke]

Kevin, those are Jordan's words too, as you know. I do enjoy those old bucks even with their smaller antlers. Thanks for the comment.

[@PeanutButterRipple]

for the record.. i’m loving this content!

[@bill-winke]

Thanks for the comment. We appreciate it.

[@paulbernitt4280]

I make a hitlist of bucks on camera and hope to be in the stand one of them that decided to walk by and present a shot. Whether it be a big buck on camera or a bully buck or a buck that comes by that I have not seen on camera and it gets me excited then Im tagging out. I get so few days to prep and hunt each year that I go with what I know and tag out a 130+ inch buck. Dream big!

[@danweaver5787]

Bill. In Ohio this is becoming more and more common. Especially since we still allow baiting and the evolution of the crossbow has drawn gun hunters to now bow hunt. Younger deer will be more active over bait in daylight hours then older class deer therefore they’re more vulnerable. Being the kill criteria for most hunters is size not age, they will shoot 125-140” 3 yr old deer but let the 3 yr old rag horn deer walk so that’s what we have for dominant buck recruitment on the privately owned areas with heavier hunting pressure. For example since 2018 I have shot 3 dominant bucks on the same piece of private property. The average age was 4 1/2 yr old and average score was 105”. We also hunt public land and my camera surveys show a better age structure and higher scoring mature bucks on the public land then the private land we hunt. That’s saying a lot as our DNR is nothing to brag about. I believe baiting and crossbows have played a big role in our numbers showing a disproportionate amount of 3yr old bucks being harvested. Maybe I’m wrong. What is your opinion on baiting and crossbows contributing to these numbers? Thx for the video Dan

[@tommyhunter1817]

Had to deal with that last year. Burned my Kansas tag on a 7 1/2 year old 8 point that scored 124. Weighed 318 lbs though. He had been pushing much bigger bucks out for at least the four years I’ve owned the place.

[@bill-winke]

Good comment Tommy. There are probably a few others there doing the same thing just not as visible. You will see those 2 year olds walking around with their busted up racks from fighting. If they are still alive in two more years, they will be running the place! Good luck.

[@tommyhunter1817]

@@bill-winke indeed.

[@seanbalch7563]

Jamie was one of my all time favorite deer for whatever reason!

[@bill-winke]

He was a cool old buck. He was at least 7 years old the year I got him

[@sambricker4731]

Really enjoyed this topic and discussion

[@bill-winke]

Thanks Sam. I appreciate the comment.

[@susanliggett3982]

Agreed, part of the puzzle, genetics also matters, bully aggressive dominant brawlers with poor/goofy racks may not have traits you want to perpetuate. My grandpa had an old saying "You cannot polish a pig and make it a pearl."

[@bill-winke]

Your grandpa had a lot of wisdom! Thanks for the comment.

[@robertfmccarthy2360]

Thanks for a video together!

[@bill-winke]

Thanks for the comment Robert. I hope you have a great day.

[@curtyoder2210]

Interesting content, does your thinking on this change with the size of the property that you manage?

[@bill-winke]

Curt, it only gets worse on the larger properties. I know guys that manage really big areas that have to remove dozens of bucks every year. That can be harder than doe harvests because in most places you can get a lot of doe tags. It is tough (outside of maybe Texas) to get a lot of buck tags. I still think that in the long-run, that is where other hunters will find an opportunity. Many of these bucks are really solid old deer, but to keep those properties productive, many of those bucks need to be harvested too. If someone would make themselves useful to those landowners and trustworthy, I think they could find a way to shoot some of those bucks.

[@michigantrapper5687]

I've had an old nanny doe that ran off bucks in the early season. If she was around, the only other deer that dared come close was her fawns. Have you ever seen this before?

[@littleben5850]

When you skull mount these old deer have you ever found any that the skull plate has completely fused to the point where the center ridge appears to be smooth bone

[@bill-winke]

They are all just a bit different, but in general the older ones tend to have a thicker "forehead" area and it is fascinating that all the skull mounts I have done have different structures around the eyes and "sinus" area.

[@alexpinnow6509]

I've only done euro mounts of bucks I've killed and the skull size alone is pretty shocking. Their skulls seem to be like nose and ears of humans, keep growing as they age

[@keithbuesing6912]

Not sure how I can tell old bucks from younger bucks without looking at teeth for making sure. Maybe pictures and catalog them? If I was a trophy hunter instead of a meat hunter I would let the smaller racks go not knowing any better. Someday maybe have enough deer on my place to get picky. There I go dreaming big! 😊

[@brettbuckmaster5128]

Best part about the video was the arrow flight at 1:06

[@bill-winke]

Agree. That was pretty cool. I had to aim a bit low hoping (expecting him to drop) at the sound of the shot. That one worked out perfectly. Thanks for the comment.

[@brittnchargmail]

Definitely decreases dispersal dispersal is something that's hard to avoid sometimes and bucks are going to disappear unless you have 300 plus acres sucks but these animals are wild Make thank you for all the info over the years. You're the man

[@jeffpangborn4943]

After watching that intro, I realized that I've been watching Bill hunt and kill deer for a long time! It's been fun!

[@bill-winke]

Thanks Jeff. It has been a long time and I appreciate the years of support.

[@dennismiller1602]

My current hunting property of 110 acres was purchased fall of 2021. We have two mature, genetically inferior bucks that need to be taken out in ‘24. We removed two in 2023 as well. The best genetics, seem more likely to get tagged by 3-4 years of age when you have a smallish property and multiple neighbors hunting, some of which are not into trigger finger management. I can think of four high potential bucks 4 yrs or older that disappeared in the past two seasons. However, removing core old uglies should open up some space for up and coming potential, regardless of property size.

[@bill-winke]

That's definitely right Dennis. Those old bullies will keep better bucks from living there. They have to go. Good luck.

[@edwardclark5211]

Dream Big brother 🙏

[@bill-winke]

Thanks Edward, you too.

[@smithhomestead1589]

Where is your dream farm located? I mean state and region

[@bill-winke]

Northeast Iowa. It's where I grew up - one of the main reasons I consider it a dream farm.

[@MrDevinSmith18]

Even though they might not score the biggest they are trophies. They made it old enough that they run the land and are bruisers.

[@bill-winke]

That's right. Age is the true determination of a trophy. It is fun to hunt and shoot bucks with big antlers but they aren't smarter or harder to kill than bucks of equal age with smaller antlers.

[@grinder881]

Another great video. I did kill 4 years ago a 5" spike horn since I thought the genetics were bad. I had him tested for Bovine TB and they said he was 2.5 years old. Glad I got those genetics out of the pool. Since I talked a little smack about my Wolverines being National Champions, I have to give A LOT of kudos to Iowa Women's Basketball team for making it to National Championship game 2 years in a row. I was rooting for them.

[@bill-winke]

Grinder, yes removing that deer was good. We were big fans of the women's team too. It was fun watching Caitlin Clark for all these years. Have a great day.

[@davidwetenkamp1873]

Long live Scruffy!

[@bill-winke]

It will be interesting to see if he is still alive this year.

[@scottminter4735]

The chase of bigger and bigger antlers is out of control. The evolution of deer hunting is getting perverted.

[@bjamin3870]

Bill Jordan buck 😂 name sounds familiar

[@bill-winke]

I like the "Bill Buck" better! Have a great day.

[@afeef745]

You better hope your neighbor doesn’t watch this video 😂

[@bill-winke]

I am sure at least some of them do. Not much I can do about that. If you produce this kind of content, it comes with the territory.

[@wnek45]

Regardless, awesome deer to hunt. I'm sure there's tons of stories. Lets be honest some people never even get a chance to see one of your "cull bucks". 😂

[@bill-winke]

Definitely. That is why I hate the term "management bucks". They are just old bucks and old bucks are always fun to hunt.

[@scottschaeffer8920]

You’re flirting with a dangerous crossroads. Antlers are meant to show dominance without fighting. Should we decide what traits are best for the species evolution? Remember, the doe contributes a lot to what you/we are deciding is a trophy. Focus on age structure, habitat, nutrition, etc. let the deer decide from there. Just my opinion.

[@Farmersforever1993]

He isn’t saying hunt only giant antlers he’s saying what should be hunted, big bucks that are on age structures vs big antlers.

[@bill-winke]

That is actually what I said in that video. But I am absolutely sure that antler size doesn't determine dominance. Body size and attitude are have much more to do with it.

[@nyleslehnen4751]

@@bill-winkeyep and ya don’t want em pushing rack bucks off to the neighbors why would ya and ya don’t want em breeding ur does and they are already old bullies put em down if ya have the tags and opportunities-fun huntin’