The United Methodist Church Split (2023)

[@revjohnlee]

As an ordained elder of the UMC, I am ashamed to say that you have presented the situation More clearly, more fairly and more accurately than anything I have EVER been able to get from official sources.

[@BrianOfCollegeStation]

I don’t see why that’d be shameful. It’s what RtH does. Dude’s had a lot of practice and he’s really really good at it

[@revjohnlee]

@@BrianOfCollegeStation RtH is anything but shameful. I enjoy and respect this channel immensely. The shame I feel is for the duplicity within my church body. I think that it is more prevalent on one side of this issue than the other but I KNOW it is present on both sides. Both sides have resorted to bearing false witness against the other and attributed motives of evil, often without any evidence, to the other. I maintain that it is possible to firmly disagree and even refuse to compromise on core principles without seeking to hurt others.

[@revjohnlee]

@@livin4dios I believe we are in total agreement. Ready to Harvest has done a magnificent job, as always. It is my church body which is the cause of my shame. I repeat the following that I said before: Ready to Harvest has presented the situation more clearly Ready to Harvest has presented the situation more fairly Ready to Harvest has presented the situation more accurately. The UMC, with rare exceptions, has done NONE of those things. You are correct also. The UMC is in a total meltdown. I fail to understand the issue upon which we disagree.

[@allmyhobbiesareexpensive2676]

@@revjohnlee They half read your comment and flew off the handle, internet 101 basically.

[@xeemnpisyuslis2089]

True Bible Church within the UMC must leave, there is nothing good left for those who stay. The UMC will slowly or has become irrelevant as a true biblical church.

[@megroux]

Watching your videos is like watching older news programs. When reporters delivered the news without emotion or personal opinion. You are even tempered and unbiased in tone and delivery. It is very refreshing and appreciated. Keep up the great work.

[@Solaceon]

That's what I like about KZbin. You've got everything here from news to weather, and they cite their sources so you can look yourself. It's great.

[@stephenfennell]

Hello megroux, did you mean "When reporters delivered the news withOUT emotion or personal opinion"?

[@megroux]

@@stephenfennell Yes exactly!

[@pinkroses135]

That's what it reminds me of too

[@tinginlang1358]

What part of these verses don't u understand? Leviticus 18:22 Leviticus 20:13 1 Corinthians 6:9 1 Timothy 1:10 Most sins are intermittent, homosexuality is a bold faced continuous practice of sins, if u voted for these ppl, or sympathize with them, u will not escape the punishment as in the day of Sodom n Gomorrah. read ur bible, don't change what the bible said, u will be accounted for what u have practicipated in, as said in ur bible, "wolves in sheep's clothing" r in UMC as said in Matt 7:15, there's no excuse for what u have done. Homosexuality has no place in the kingdom of God no matters how u want of twist or spin it. u will reap what u sowed.

[@lesliehackney7519]

As a lifelong Methodist, I was confused about all this. You explained it so this old lady could understand. Thank you, I appreciate your explanations.

[@jcschwarb]

The problem is he presented it in a very slick way but is very misleading.

[@shapexon3322]

@@jcschwarb How so?

[@jcschwarb]

@@shapexon3322 I provided a write-up just below your comment. This explains the how so. Most folks coming to watch this are trying to justify why they should disaffiliate. This video is very skewed while trying to seem unbiased. It shows the UMC in the worst light and most of it is out of context. Happy to go into further if you would like.

[@mitromney]

@@jcschwarb How can the UMC be in any worse light than it already is? It denounced the Biblical view of marriage. the very first commandment given to men by God in Eden, the very first creation of God - a union between one man and one woman. They've given it all up for a modern view of the secular, sinful world, and with it, gave up on the inerrancy of the Bible and many other core doctrines. UMC has been poisoned by the progressive heretics and the previous vote already showed that FIFTY PERCENT of it is already rotten and ready to be chopped off and threw into the fire by the Lord. How can any actual Church even consider leaving UMC is beyond me. All should be leaving instantly when the last vote was cast, 2023 is a late call already.

[@jcschwarb]

@@mitromney I would agree with you if your facts were correct. The UMC has not changed their written stance, rather they reconfirmed that marriage is between a man and a woman in 2019.

[@christopherluckie5553]

I work at a Methodist summer camp and we usually hold kids of ministers/bishops/elders for our state’s annual conference. The split was so obvious even the 11 year olds knew what was going on. It’s crazy to see in real time an entire schism in a denomination

[@egalitarian-rex]

@Christopher Luckie, Crazy to witness a schism in real time, but not at all crazy for this schism to be happening. Inflexibility and polarization are rampant worldwide, especially among people who are convinced they follow the Golden Rule, but then argue it isn’t applicable to certain “others”.

[@Spartan322]

@@egalitarian-rex The "Golden Rule" should be adherence to the Bible on issues of salvation and sin at the least, God does not give flexibility to man that he could sin, why should the members of God's house be given credence to recognize sin as though it were not sin? That requires the rejection of Christ Himself.

[@egalitarian-rex]

@@Spartan322 I am an atheist, but I am not an anti-theist. I’m happy with my morals which definitely include treating others as I want to be treated. I believe love, empathy, compassion, and kindness are natural traits in human beings. I don’t hate or berate anyone or try to limit them in the pursuit of happiness. I disagree with any idea, practice or movement which moves our government away from democracy or toward becoming an absolute monarchy and/or theocracy. We cannot convert all Americans to one belief, so it ultimately comes down to bloodshed or respectful coexistence. Having your way through the unprovoked use of force is not moral now or at any time in history. After reading your other comments, I can tell you will never accept my right or anyone’s right to have strongly held beliefs that aren’t precisely in sync with your own interpretation of scripture. For this reason I will not be continuing this discussion.

[@Spartan322]

@@egalitarian-rex "I’m happy with my morals which definitely include treating others as I want to be treated." The moral standard for those of Christ though is to be respectful but also to speak truth, that we show true love, not tolerance of sin, love requires the adherence to truth as it was said: "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Why should those of claiming God's House on the instructions declared by God so declared by God then be made to violate His Word and yet declare themselves to act in righteousness before God? How could this be righteous when He who declared righteousness yet declared violations of His Word as unrighteous and evil? "I believe love, empathy, compassion, and kindness are natural traits in human beings." "What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” - Romans 3:9-18 The Bible rejects your claim, Paul and Jesus both made these things crystal clear in the NT and Proverbs and Psalms declare much the same, you can not have authority over a subject that you reject understanding to. "I don’t hate or berate anyone or try to limit them in the pursuit of happiness." Does a father hate his son if he warns and punishes his son for violating his charge over him? If I spit in my father's face and call him names, is my father not in the right to punish me for such? God says it is in fact hatred that one allows one to live in sin, it would be hatred to not correct those of sin for they wish to see them die, but those who wish to see another live warns and would praise punishment for the sake of correction. However if punishment does not bring correction, if they continue their evil as they violate God's Law without repentance, God will condemn them for their crimes. The wages of sin is death. "And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” - Hebrews 12:5-6 "Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him." - Proverbs 13:24 "I disagree with any idea, practice or movement which moves our government away from democracy or toward becoming an absolute monarchy and/or theocracy." This is completely irrelevant to the topic, but God does not respect any aspect of the religions of man that he makes of his government for they are but a means to an end for God's purposes, a nation of God's people who adhere well to His Word will be saved, but a nation against Him will be put to the sword should they refuse to turn from their wicked ways. The Assyrians were saved by through faith, but cities of the Sodomites was destroyed for their sins that they would not relent from though they had been warned. "We cannot convert all Americans to one belief, so it ultimately comes down to bloodshed or respectful coexistence." This shall happen as punishment, I do not wish this, neither would God desire it but because He is just it is required, it is inevitable as God's Law has been violated and even those of the Body of Christ have turned from His Word. A day of judgement shall come, as has come in times before. "Having your way through the unprovoked use of force is not moral now or at any time in history." God has declared men fit to punishment for their transgressions, whether they be of a moral standard or not, the Assyrians were utterly degenerate and yet were declared by God to destroy and enslave Israel, so too the Romans, but so too did God call the Hebrews to wipe out the Canaanites for they had been warned but had gone so far that justice required punishment for their sins. They had done such things that no mercy could be given. So too did He declare such on the city of Sodom and those like it, yet He did not use men in that era to wipe them out. Punishment regardless comes for nations that have done violations against God. "After reading your other comments, I can tell you will never accept my right or anyone’s right to have strongly held beliefs that aren’t precisely in sync with your own interpretation of scripture." This itself is a strawman. I have warned you of the things to come yet you would rather accuse the messenger instead of blame yourself, I am not the one who declares these things to happen but I merely speak them as they have been shown to me. It is not by my power or authority I speak so why do you accuse me? By what standard do you accuse me? For not even the right you claim to itself was made without God yet you declare it inherent. How so? Those without God have no right, yet it is because we know that you have the Imago Dei, the Image of God, that you are granted rights not because you are owed such but because it is a gift. "For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?" - 1 Corinthians 4:7 "For this reason I will not be continuing this discussion." The fault is on you for sin, it is questionable why you would even bother to respond if you truly felt so offended.

[@TheTetrapod]

@@Spartan322 God isn't real. You've devoted your life to nonsense. The void awaits you, just as it does me. Get off your high horse and stop judging others for doing things that are harmless to everyone involved.

[@davecallender4038]

Well researched and presented. This was one of the most balanced and thorough presentations on this issue that I have seen or read. Keep up the great work!

[@duaneadams5210]

I really admire how you present just the facts without adding your own thoughts or opinions. I wish all news reporters could do this same thing. You are very informative and present your findings in a very intelligent manor. I look forward to each of your videos.

[@jamesparson]

It is a rarity.

[@chrisbaier6252]

I agree. I am not sure what this guy’s personal beliefs are (I have a vague idea). But he presents this very matter-of-fact without personal commentary, and it’s up to the viewer to see how their personal beliefs compare.

[@TheMidnightModder]

Yes! This is how the news ought to be told. Just straight facts.

[@johngalt5166]

@@chrisbaier6252where did you get your idea from, I can’t tell at all, he is really good at what he does 😅 (which is a very good thing lol)

[@jamesparson]

@@numap4701 Did God know this was going to happen?

[@thetravelingmethodist6754]

I am also an ordained elder in the United Methodist Church and I appreciate the way in which you reported this story. I believe that it was fair and accurate. I am also very impressed by Your other videos. You do a great job thank you. Please keep it up.

[@PeaceToAll-sl1db]

where does God say to join the United Methodist Church is the Bible?

[@grumpyoldguy6117]

@@PeaceToAll-sl1db Got to say, seems the easiest change is branding, replacing letterhead and business card!! Under new management does not mean "services" will be improved.

[@PeaceToAll-sl1db]

@SpaceAce100 how is it absurd - why would i join a man made church that is not in the bible

[@jcschwarb]

@@PeaceToAll-sl1db what does that question have to do with this topic and the importance? The denomination is being torn apart over misleading information and people’s feelings.

[@jcschwarb]

@@grumpyoldguy6117 you are so right, it just means the new denomination will be known for the one dividing issue. It looks very hypocritical and self-serving to others on the outside looking in.

[@callmemeta9724]

So if they're splitting, can they really call themselves the "United" Methodist Church anymore?

[@actionsub]

The "United" in the name is a clap back to the Evangelical United Brethren, one of two denominations that merged to form the United Methodists. There's an old joke about a Free Methodist minister who met with a group of United Methodists. He was asked "what's the difference?" and he replied "We're about as free as you are united."

[@dnzswithwombats]

The name has been a joke from the very beginning in the 1960's.

[@zephaniahgreenwell8151]

Brian Collier brings zero clarity to the position of the Foundry Network.

[@chrisbaier6252]

My mom, who grew up EUB is still a little bitter about the merge. 😂

[@danielhixson3717]

After the decision made by the North Georgia Conference Bishop this past week, it's the 'Captive Methodist Church' .

[@glasscow9965]

Thank you for excellent reporting! No biases no opinions just the facts in a clear and concise way. You have brought reporting back to a professional level. 🙏🏻

[@colla8676]

I recently resigned from our local UMC. The pastor considered himself a centrist, not giving direction at all to the congregation. Members forced a meeting during covid, since that time the issue has not been addressed and are unaware of what will become of their church. Thank you for sharing this.

[@LtBRS]

@ CollA For a long time this group has had nothing to do with christianity. NO light and NO salt. They exist on an obvious foundation of conflated congregational and denominational multiformity and appeal to a source text (the bible) for its existance that condemns multiformity. Of course they baptize vise to make it acceptable to the socially-engineered, dumbed-down, degenerate culture, and that's just a start. The NEW group takes the same multiformity foundation with it.

[@ianmedford4855]

I stopped going as well... I really liked this church, and had thought that I'd finally found a good one. Then, about 6 months in, all of the sudden they start talking about the utmost importance of race, diversity, equity, and inclusion in faith. Israel is an apartheid state, etc etc. And dont get me started on abortion and homosexuality... And that was it. I never went back. I just want the old Anglican Church back.

[@TheZacman2]

It's not your pastor's job to tell you to vote Democrat or Republican. His job is to preach the Good News of Jesus' life, death and resurrection. Do you think going to church should feel like watching Fox News or CNN news depending on the pastor?

[@dnzswithwombats]

Same in some few Episcopal churches. Saying nothing. Not standing up for the gospel. Whistling past the graveyard.

[@Jaspermoises1835]

I also officially left the UMC and renounced my membership a few years ago when the UMC ordained its first “non-binary” bishop. I knew at the point this was not the church I grew up in and loved nor the one John Wesley envisioned.

[@gregbrown4009]

An excellent and balanced analysis! I still have a lot of friends that "eye roll" that I watch a lot of KZbin, but where else can you get quality analysis like this? Great stuff!

[@richardperson6310]

I am not a Methodist. I was brought up as a Lutheran but am not active in the church anymore. I watched this out of curiosity and I am amazed that this splintering is happening. Thank you for your clear and honest relating of this information.

[@nathanguillaume1247]

This was a great video that was very informative. It was also put out at a great time because my church is voting on potential disaffiliation next week.

[@toddc3988]

Hope and pray for wisdom for you and your congregation. It is a stressful time. It cannot be fun.

[@nathanguillaume1247]

@@toddc3988 Thank you! Prayer is greatly appreciated and greatly effective.

[@ianalan4367]

Lord have mercy and blessings upon your congregation. May I ask why you are considering to split off?

[@ulexite-tv]

Thanks for a lucid news report. I am not a Methodist (not even a Christian -- i am a Reform Jew), but i found this very interesting and of historical importance. I congratulate you on your balanced and factual presentation of the doctrinal, financial, and representational issues involved.. In my daily work i deal with people of many religious and spiritual faiths, and it is essential for me to stay abreast of current events in these matters, so i will subscribe and continue to follow your channel.

[@BasedZoomer]

What is a reform jew?

[@MFMegaZeroX7]

Yes, as an atheist, I enjoy watching Ready to Harvest to understand the current movements in the churches and what their stances are.

[@wendyleeconnelly2939]

@@BasedZoomer Within Judaism there are denominations as well, the OP of this thread is saying she belongs to the Reform denomination, generally the most progressive within Judaism.

[@bobharms8787]

Sad, the Bible is not the central basis for decisions, and the Providence of God is no longer in play...forgive us Lord, may your judgment be the definitive answer, be merciful Lord Jesus.

[@Solaceon]

Ex-Lutheran, just discovered this channel and I'd have to agree. I've been agnostic for 15 years now but still find Christianity and Christian news really fascinating.

[@gordonpsmith8958]

I grew up Methodist and left the church to move to Free Will Baptist many years ago. My knowledge of the UMC fracturing was confined to occasional headlines here and there. This was so clearly presented as to leave little question as to the circumstances surrounding the fractures. Brilliantly written and calmly presented. You have our thanks.

[@MyCousinGrandpa]

Good job Josh. Thanks for keeping us informed.

[@CheeseOfString]

Wow. I am incredibly impressed with the unbiased voice you've been able to use through this situation

[@mikegraves3673]

True. Also true what Jesus said about hot, cold, and lukewarm.

[@SteezyRider]

It might be time for those congregations who are prevented from leaving to simply walk away. If the Lord is truly with you then He will provide a way.

[@glennsimonsen8421]

They would be walking away from the church that they have invested in all their lives only to see a distant UMC administration swoop in and abscond with their property. But yes, the Lord will provide a way.

[@mikegraves3673]

Agreed. Jesus has provided a way.

[@KNSKelster]

I suspect that is what the annual conferences are trying to force the congregations to do. The UMC conference wants them to leave the church that they likely built so the conference can keep the property until more liberal Methodists arrive in the area and the UMC won't have to actually find a way to build another church. But the thing is, forcing those congregations to walk way will likely destroy the congregation in the process.

[@brendajackson294]

Thank you. I am a former Methodist. I had heard about the split but was not in the loop for the details. Thank you for the news.

[@christopherbryson3767]

Thanks!

[@ReadyToHarvest]

Thank you Christopher!

[@locutorest]

Thank you for this helpful report!

[@actionsub]

0:32 Point of clarification: The UMC's General Conference is (theoretically) held every four years, not yearly, mainly because of getting the delegates from around the world together. 2019 was a special General Conference called for the express purpose of trying to come to some settlement on the LGBT issue. COVID threw a bit of a monkey wrench into holding the regularly scheduled one in 2020, which was supposed to ratify the decisions made at 2020 GC. That said, what United Methodists call "Annual Conferences" are regional in nature and organization.

[@texasskyliner704]

There is no LGBT issue with God. It's a man-made issue.

[@ianalan4367]

“What one generation tolerates, the next will accept.” - John Wesley I fear Mr. Wesley would no longer recognize the UMC. It has long since been very different than the churches that sprang up under his ministry.

[@danherrick5785]

I have a feeling the John Westley was a cavilier in his day. If John didn't go against the grain in his day - nobody would know his name today?

[@ianalan4367]

danherrick5785 - History would support your feeling. The Anglican Church would no longer give the man a pulpit to preach from. The reasoning was that he held to doctrine though. He would not have been accused of altering or watering it down.

[@weirdwilliam8500]

Any Christian from 500 years ago wouldn’t recognize you as Christian. Same for any Christian 500 years in the future looking back at you.

[@sedrox]

@@ianalan4367 Wesley was not solid on doctrine and never developed a systematic theology like some of the other Reformers. He was willing to fellowship and partner with Christians who held different doctrinal stances, and much of his written sermons consist of him "thinking out loud" as he developed his understanding of the faith. I think that he would be disappointed in the schism, first and foremost.

[@danherrick5785]

@@ianalan4367 He still exemplified the spirit of rebeling against the powers that be. The same system that would let a church kill a women if she dressed as a man according to the old testament law. A law that was replaced - by the new.

[@Yallquietendown]

Good. I’m no longer Methodist but I’m so happy to know the methodist church I grew up in seceded from the methodist conference

[@robinchristmas6448]

I replayed this video several times to fully digest all of the information. Our Episcopal Church got a young Priest-in-charge 2 years ago who came from a Methodist Church background. I sort of wondered why he left the Methodists. Thanks for sharing this well done video.

[@TheMotz55]

15 years ago, I left another much larger Christian denomination to join the UMC. It's disheartening to see that all this infighting may destroy a church that has been so well-grounded, so moderate and open to discourse, a thinking person's church. I pray for the UMC and I hope there's more reflection on what Jesus would really want.

[@raymondgreen5700]

What does he want??

[@Himmiefan]

Excellent description of the UMC. I think as society swings away from the extremism that's popular now, mainline churches like the UMC will grow. I left the ACNA because of the extreme right-wing and their anger about, well, anything and everything, that the moderation of the UMC felt peaceful.

[@gwenj5419]

Jesus is Truth. I think it's wrong to call it simply infighting, which makes it sound somewhat trivial. What the churches are arguing about is "What is true"? How can you be united with people that disagree on basic, important truth? They are really different religions.

[@TheMotz55]

@@gwenj5419 No, they are not different religions. I can also tell you that church politics is not above any other kind of infighting within institutions.

[@jaaaspokenjay5778]

@@raymondgreen5700 He wants slaves to obey their masters....especially the cruel ones. He also wants people to give all they have to the poor and let god provide for them... so no more 401Ks and no more savings accounts.

[@toranshaw4029]

Ta for the update on this. With some UMC conferences being a lot smaller than they were previously, I can see a lot of reorganization in happening, with the now smaller ones (like the one you mentioned in Texas) merging with others!

[@Caderic]

I think it's going to crater the finances of the UMC.

[@bobmoore303]

I grew up in the EUB and United Methodist religion. This year my church left the UMC and joined the GMC, the split cost my church over $200,000. Many smaller churches want to leave UMC but can't afford the exit dues.

[@letsgococo288]

Nothing but a money laundering enterprise. Sad that most of you good people get taken for a ride.

[@bethannarmentrout]

Thank you very much. Best information I’ve gotten so far. I’ve recently returned to the UMC I grew up in. Decided to start my grandchildren in my childhood church. They are 6 and 8 however I got thrown into this mess and now our church deciding what to do. I think what would the founding members of my church think and pray for God’s guidance. Thank you again!

[@skittlesandfriends5710]

Very well prepared and presented, My Methodist church recently voted at our Charge Conference to Disaffiliate from the Methodist Conference, with 93 percent of the members voting to leave however we are going to be an independent church now, with no association or membership in another conference or denomination. Our Pastor has said that there will be no change in our ministries, Worship services, events or activities, Our HR and executive Leaders have been working on the necessary legal, financial, and administrative tasks to get set up as an independent church with the State, While this is a very sad moment in the life of our church, we are also excited about what the future holds for us as we travel down this new road.

[@Dulcimertunes]

Charles and John Wesley would find these churches unrecognizable

[@AragornRespecter]

Christ would find them unrecognizable

[@markmower1746]

@@AragornRespecter gay

[@raymondgreen5700]

God by his holy spirit dwells in the bodies of each individual believer the body is the Temple of God not a denomination or building or institution.

[@ElricX]

Good informative video, thank you. I grew up going to a Methodist Church. Learning of this saddens me.

[@MillerMeteor74]

The UMC I attended here in southern NJ left the denomination in 1990 after a unanimous vote of the congregation. They had to buy back their building, which happened maybe a year or two later. More recently another local UMC left. That was in 2019. They were locked out of their building in 2020, but were able to buy it in 2021.

[@danzinoraswitch3896]

Thank you so much for this. I felt like I was losing my mind. My mother and I are the only ones who still attend the Methodist church in my family, different churches since I now live 5 states away. Her church, the one I grew up in, is voting on whether or not to disaffiliate in April. It's mind boggling to hear. She's been giving me updates for the past three years on all of this and how the pastor is really pushing to disaffiliate (note: my mom does not want this. She wants to stay. The congregation is mixed but they had to fight to get proper representation of the benefits to staying after the pastor got a speaker to talk about the benefits of leaving). It's like a drama playing out. And meanwhile where I live, my church, also UMC... not a whisper. Of anything. I had to ask the pastors "what is going on? Where does this church actually stand on these things? I have no idea" and I get vague "we stand for love" and "there really isn't any news in the larger UMC". Which... sounded wrong? But we also had a pandemic stop a lot of things so I thought okay maybe? So I really appreciate this breakdown. It was too weird for me in this place between hearing about all these rocking changes from the church I grew up in and the "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" vibe from the one I attend now. (Halfway attend, now. I'm looking for another church and would like to stay UMC. But your video has been very helpful!) Thank you so much for sharing.

[@2007NissanAltima]

Good on methodists standing up for their beliefs

[@sombra6153]

I grew up in the UMC and figured this was coming almost ten years ago when a pastor of a mega- church I attended blogged that we might have interpreted the Bible wrong all these years. I had also, as a church member in one conference, noted how the bishops didn’t seem interested in backing up a good pastor and Bible teacher who came at odds with members over something a member’s kid had done because some of them were well endowed with financial resources and the congregation was trying to build a building.

[@highup7]

Well, no matter what the religion is, money talks.

[@potatoheadpokemario1931]

​@@highup7 which is all the more reason we need to guard against greed

[@mikelawlor1533]

@@potatoheadpokemario1931as long as there’s paid clergy and where people own churches…this is their GOD

[@mikelawlor1533]

In order to support and back up and get rid of confusion and manipulation in the books of the Bible… The book of Mormon was sent.

[@briandunning2974]

As always, detailed and succinct clear presentation of the issues. I appreciate this channel for not wasting time but giving the facts clearly. Keep up the good work.

[@Platyfurmany]

I joined the United Methodist Church back in 1977 and have been a member of the United Methodist Church all that time. For the past 10 years, I've been watching all of this unfolding at the North Georgia Conference level. I knew it would be messy knowing that this split was coming. Now that it is upon us, I am greatly discouraged by all the ugly political machinations. I can't help wondering what Christ thinks of this.😪

[@drZok3136]

What Christ thinks ? You have to ask that question ? Either you accept the Bible as the inspired word of God or not. God sez homosexuality is an abomination before me. Need any more clarification ? The umc needs a conference for this ? Don't wonder why young folks are leaving every church...there's no leadership and everyone just wants to get along. Trust me, the real Supreme Court will sort this out quickly.

[@easybreeezyb]

I ask myself the same and I really don't think he would be happy with the split and arguing 🥲

[@darthbigred22]

Really? You think God would keep unity with the Pharisees for the sake of unity? It's a pretty obvious conversation: those who want to change a 2000+ yr old religion because of modern politics/the failure of modern psychology to keep them in the asylums far away from the population and those who can figure if masturbation and looking at another woman count as a sexual sin then the multiple verses covering homosexuality are pretty clear.

[@easybreeezyb]

@@pbajnow unfortunately true

[@easybreeezyb]

@@darthbigred22 yikes, praying for your soul my friend!

[@gaylawars-white9692]

As a lifelong Methodist, I was confused about all this as information wasn't forth coming initially. You explained it in easily understandable manner. Thank you, I appreciate your efforts of truth.

[@yprimrose]

I saw this coming back in September 2011, when I was UMC(GA) at the time. I read articles about changes to marriages and requirements for church leadership in Texas, which I forwarded to all the churches and pastors I knew asking them to research it and pray asking God to show them what was going on. It went right over their head or some refused to read the writing on the wall. What was a small pebble, is now a wave. There has been enough time to figure out what they would do if those changes went through in 2011. Guess we will find out more in a few about the state of the UMC.

[@chrishendricks7362]

Thank you for sharing this, as a Florida Presbyterian who should be more active, I have been wondering what is going on with Protestant Churches in general during these wild times. Your video gave me some answers to my inquiry and it was very informative. Good job.

[@Dulcimertunes]

It’s called apostasy

[@TheEverFreeKing]

@@Dulcimertunes No thinking differently isn't apostasy.

[@RoKBottomStudios]

​@@TheEverFreeKing going against scripture sure is.

[@tannerfrancisco8759]

@@TheEverFreeKing being antiChrist is

[@walterhenderson2155]

Traditionalist are welcome at the Catholic Church.

[@libertyvilleguy2903]

A well articulated, balanced presentation. So rare these days. Thank you.

[@proper1420a]

A correction: the paragraph 2553 "exit plan" (@2:40) was not part of the Traditional Plan. It was a separate petition (90066) submitted by a supporter of one of the more progressive plans. The Traditional Plan did originally include a petition (90041) that addressed disaffiliation, but that petition was dropped during the General Conference, and the 2553 exit plan passed. I don't know why it turned out this way. I mention this because complaints by traditionalists about 2553 have been called hypocritical by some based on the false premise that 2553 was part of the Traditional Plan.

[@DottyKupsky]

Thank you for this. Concise, detailed and clear.

[@rickbrickles1410]

It’s really hard to speak on this. We must stay with the word of Jesus our teacher….

[@samgaspar6322]

What should also be said is that in churches where the vote to disaffilate lost by a small margin, those who voted to disaffiliate left anyway and formed separate churches and mostly joined the GMC. This then will significantly increase, if not double, the number of GMC affiliated churches beyond your projection of 20%.

[@danrose3233]

In addition I bet many of the UMC churches that stay will lose many members and many will fold in the following years.

[@patricklee8088]

@@danrose3233 Which makes denying those churches who want to leave nonsensical.

[@pitpawten]

​@@patricklee8088 They'd rather "cut the baby in half" so that no-one wins rather than cede ground.

[@JM_Solo]

@@danrose3233 this is already happening. I’ve seen it in my own town.

[@kennedythedford9102]

Do you citations for this? Like he did the research and you have no proof ( as of right now) that you're right. Now I am ready to be proven wrong if you can show some sources?

[@briscoedarling3237]

Even putting this question to a vote is an indication of how far the church has fallen.

[@trickybeatle2189]

I need a video comparing and contradicting all 3 new Methodist denominations

[@jamesparson]

I think you wanted the word contrasting.

[@joer5627]

Do a search. Videos are out there

[@TeutobergForestryService]

Goodness, this was exceptionally well articulated. The speaker is on point!! I’ll subscribe

[@fredschroyer584]

Outstanding presentation. Really makes everything clear. Thank you.

[@AnthSchaef73]

The General Conference meets every 4 years. If I’m not mistaken 2019 was a special called conference. The regular scheduled conference was to be in 2020 making the 2024 the next quadrennial meeting.

[@frzstat]

You are correct

[@jdgill686]

I've noticed a lot of UMC properties up for sale on commercial real estate sights.

[@myleshagar9722]

The clerical vultures must leech from the resources built up from yesteryear, resources they can never, ever construct.

[@Erik-rj6ql]

@@myleshagar9722 it’s difficult to build a society but easy it falls

[@tonyricketts5569]

As an ex-UMC member, I took the unmentioned option. I left for another denomination. I expect when it all washes out, there will be a shuffling of people between different churches by people belonging to a new church they don’t agree with. GMC to UMC or the opposite. There are a large number of former UMC members now attending the Southern Baptist congregation that I now attend.

[@pwcorgi2000]

I, along with a couple joined a SBC as well. Partially because there was no activity happening at the methodist church. (Nobody wanted to do anything)

[@PocketMarmo04]

That means you are a Calvinist. Good Luck.

[@garrettjohnson7546]

@@PocketMarmo04 No it does not. The two theological structures in the SBC are Provisionism and Calvinism. There are differences for sure but I would not call either heretical because I myself do struggle between the two.

[@thomaswilliams2273]

@@PocketMarmo04 That's okay, though, because they were predestined to be Calvinists before the foundation of the world :).

[@tylercox9053]

Did you watch the previous video on this channel about the pending Southern Baptist split?

[@jessicakopecky7230]

That was some great reporting!

[@kingbojackson8822]

Excellent reporting, my goodness. Thank you 🙏

[@316350]

This was an excellent video. I’m not remembering if you have ever posted a video of your personal denominational affiliation or not. If you are not a member of the UMC; you did a phenomenal job.

[@bobcrow7580]

He did awhile ago... I think Independent Baptist. Anyone else remember for sure?

[@MilwaukeeWoman]

Considering how many videos he has contrasting denominations with Independent Baptist it's likely that's what he is.

[@316350]

@@bobcrow7580 now that you say it; I vaguely remember the video. I believe you’re correct. 👍 Thanks. 🙂

[@DavidLee-id3lf]

He was a professor at an indepedent baptist college, you can find old lectures of his as some of the oldest uploads on his channel

[@thegoodnewslife]

Jonesboro FUMC is my home church. What you didn’t mention was that the DS and Bishop oversaw, attended, crafted, and approved the WHOLE process as it was occurring. And they NEVER said anything was being done incorrectly. Nor did they coach the congregation afterwards on where “things went wrong” for them To deny our disaffiliation vote. It also doesn’t matter if it was 69%… the rule is 67. Whether it’s a vote at 99% or 68%… the threshold is the threshold.

[@noneofyourdamnbusiness3706]

You mean people in your congregation can't figure out simple math. Why be somewhere where you aren't welcomed? Go live in harmony elsewhere.

[@schs1977]

Because of lack of leadership in the UMC, this once conservative denomination is destroying itself. Those churches that are not allowed to leave will pursue legal action, and it will cost what remains of the UMC millions of $.

[@kjorlaug1]

The UMC has never been a "conservative" denomination. It has been squarely mainline for decades and decades.

[@xheralt]

The conservatism Methodism was founded on (Temperance movement, etc.) is NOT the conservatism of today. When a denomination becomes large enough, it becomes all things to all people. There are conservative elements (live by the Law, as interpreted by men centuries dead) and liberal elements (live by Christ's example, flouting the law as necessary) in large enough numbers each to defy categorizing Methodism (or other large denominations, like Catholicism) as either. Until a schism happens to shake things out.

[@kjorlaug1]

@@xheralt Temperance was always an odd duck for Methodists, considering Wesley himself drank wine pretty much every day of his life.

[@truedarklander]

Skill issue

[@schs1977]

@@kjorlaug1 The UMC I attended was conservative. Maybe not all.

[@frankb1]

Good reporting. Thanks for posting.

[@Nick-pl8st]

A very high quality presentation of information! Thanks

[@martaamance4545]

I grew up in the Methodist Church in the 50s and early 60s when it preached faith in God and not faith in man's political ways. So I quit many decades ago and go my own way. I discovered that I don't need my religion nor my faith 'organized' for me. Do I care what is happening to the United Methodist Church? No. This is what happens when you trun away from the word of God and preach the word of men.

[@RobertWilke]

Amen, soo much truth in that.

[@michaelnewton5873]

My late Grandma would be sad about this. She was a long serving President of women's guild.

[@greenguitarfish]

The UMC as a whole, abandoned scripture a long time ago. Now it’s only a matter of the degree of sin and disobedience is acceptable. It’s disintegrated more and more over the years until it’s more like a quasi religious community center of sorts. As a child I remember when my parents knew it was time to get out. I’m so glad we did !

[@kmbbmj5857]

As someone who was raised Methodist, I haven't left, but the UMC long ago left me. It just greatly saddens me that the UMC lost its way years ago.

[@greenguitarfish]

@@kmbbmj5857 Well, the body of Christ is made up of all those who have accepted Jesus into their heart and received His forgiveness. I hope you have good fellowship with true believers. Also, staying in Gods word is essential. Both are so very important, especially in the time we are living.

[@fishingthelist4017]

I have attended United Methodist Churches, and the business and social aspects became apparent when my family faced difficult times. They may send out mission trips and support groups outside of their congregations, but they put strict limits on helping those within, and this was in what was considered a leading "conservative" congregation. The last UMC we attended was even worse.

[@allanmendez5661]

Great video Josh. Other options. The Church of the Nazarene, The Wesleyan Church, or The Free Methodist Church. Blessings.

[@edp2260]

This issue has been dividing the church for at least 50 years. I remember longtime members and their families leaving even then. Our church was closed and sold as a result of declining membership. A real shame.

[@dumyes]

Thank you for the update. The pension angle would seem cause a conflict of interest for pastors?

[@arthouston7361]

I grew up in the Methodist Church when it was the first Methodist Church, and there wasn’t much emphasis on the plan of salvation for the teachings from Deuteronomy and Leviticus. Thirty years later, I trusted Christ as my savior and found an independent Baptist church, and I am so so glad that I found Jesus and a church that honors the Word of God!!!!! Brothers and sisters, you must reject false teachers!!!!

[@FalconJudah]

AMEN!!!

[@hdturner1]

May all of the daughter churches that emerge Including the original thrive and multiply so that eventually this sad chapter becomes a story of more people in more places having access to Christ Jesus.

[@frzstat]

Amen!

[@pjc342]

Amen!

[@critic2029]

I’d like to compliment your complete and thorough report on this issue. I’d been looking for an end or end run down.

[@lonelystupidwar]

Thank you for doing such a good job at keeping whomever cares very up to date about the affairs of the world wide Christian stage, with such detailed information dude, God bless you 🙏🏻.

[@fouresterofthetrees287]

One thing you missed. If a church votes to leave, the pastor must either resign from the UMC and potentially give up his pension, or must be moved to another UMC.

[@americanundergroundchurch5051]

And many of those pastors don’t believe in Christ nor his words in Matthew 6 telling them not to worry about money.

[@FriarJoe66]

@@americanundergroundchurch5051 based on what? Why are you so comfortable disparaging pastors that you’ve never met nor talked to?

[@americanundergroundchurch5051]

@@FriarJoe66 Based on their decision to remain in the employ of a fallen church for financial reasons.

[@bobcrow7580]

Makes sense that they resign from UMC, but then lose any pension they have earned during their service? OOOF, that's awful. At least with a 401K, if you leave a company, you keep what you've already paid in. Seems UMC is very spiteful.

[@joer5627]

People leave jobs all the time. Why would they lose their pensions? As an example I left a job after 9 years. Upon retirement I was able to take monthly payments or a cash out amount. I lost nothing. Are clergy pensions so sorry that is not possible?

[@murielsteinmetz4274]

as it was in the days of Noah and Lot!!!! sow the wind, reap the whirlwind!!!

[@MenwithHill]

Man I miss when you could just hammer your creed to a church door.

[@henrybalkwill3276]

It’s very difficult when the door is made of glass.

[@thomasc9036]

That's no help either. Look what happened to Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and others. Balancing charity and Biblical integrity is a challenge. Churches try to be charitable, then 20+ years later, they allow homosexual couples into the Lord's Supper. We see this patter over and over.

[@erikriza7165]

many people have done that, and are doing it. it only makes things worse.

[@Anthony-sm8wy]

I mean, you still could. This is essentially a battle over property and money.

[@thomasc9036]

@@erikriza7165 I need to disagree. Most local churches that focus on studying their confessions and catechisms slow or prevent falling away. Those local churches that do not submit to the magisterial authority and do not actively teach tend to fall away.

[@pedalwithus]

Our Church, one big one mentioned in Texas has left. We have been members there for over 27 years. My wife is part of Stephen Ministry there. We are really upset with this whole thing. My wife resigned her role and we are now looking for a new Church.

[@bearnurse1]

One quibble: General Conference is every 4 years, not yearly. In the UMC Annual Conferences are regional districts like dioceses. The North Alabama Conference, Alabama West Florida Conference, Missouri Conference, etc etc

[@novadawg6913]

I’m curious if any former UMC congregations will join the ACNA.

[@livin4dios]

LIkely few if any. The ACNA is a wonderful denomination with shared theology, but most former UMs will likely join the GMC or another Methodist denomination before Anglican. While they are closely related, they are not quite the same. The GMC would be a much better fit for most, with the whole structure and systems set up specifically for former UMCs. The ACNA, on the other hand, is different in many small ways that would make that transition more complicated for local churches. What is more likely is that some UM people may choose to join ACNA local churches as they are most similar in beliefs than many others.

[@charlesstribula3477]

Great video, although there are other issues besides human sexuality (e.g., role of scripture, and nature of Jesus).

[@edwardpearce1138]

Sad. Very sad. But if we are truthful, we have to recognize that it is not primarily about LGBTQ issues. I am old enough to remember when it was "The Methodist Church" and not the "United Methodist Church" and even then, there were people sowing dissension. We would be so much happier if we would take Jesus' teachings and apply them to ourselves, and trust God to deal with those on both sides who wish to profit from division.

[@dantarot]

I'm remember when it was the Methodist Episcopal Church. And of course earlier the church split over slavery. Many of the congregations are now joining the "global" church.

[@cameron1077]

@@dantarot wait, so when did the Episcopal church split off?

[@dantarot]

@@cameron1077 Everything is not a split. Sometimes it was an effort to join together...hence the 1968 United Methodist effort.

[@bobbyyounger7632]

Thank you for this information, well done

[@Wally943]

I was unaware of this discussion/rift until a family member in a different conference asked me about it. Their church had already decided to leave the UMC. The leadership of the conference that my church is in has, until late 2022, practiced keeping their heads in the sand, not providing any information. The church where I am a member continues to avoid any reference to the schism.

[@samblackstone3400]

If sexuality is splitting up your church the plot was lost long ago. This applies to more groups than just the one in this video.

[@thomasc9036]

PCA just held off the homosexual acceptance attack in 2022. It was closer than expected but probably bought another 5-10 years till the next wave of attacks.

[@Yipper64]

indeed. The bible is clear, to flee from sexual immortality. If it ever got bad enough that it splits churches, then for certain, the plot has been horribly lost.

[@texasskyliner704]

@@Yipper64 Well put.

[@MrKit9]

If your Church preaches hatred and harm to others then is was never a Church.

[@Yipper64]

@@MrKit9 Id agree but your definition of "hatred and harm" probably includes teaching what the bible says, so in reality its the opposite.

[@jacobherron6685]

We have problems in the UPC just need to pray for all Christians ✝️

[@dddz961]

This channel is a public service

[@randyschultz197]

Thank you for the update.

[@jollypearltank8935]

Thank you for your work. God bless.

[@keittkatranch5167]

Sad to see so much division, my cousin is a UMC minister. Also could you please do a video on the issue of abortion in the Seventh -day Adventist Church. It would be very timely in regard to the overturning of Roe v Wade.

[@joylox]

I follow a lot of "alternative" SDA media, as well as working with official divisions of the SDA church, and there are a lot of very divisive issues, which have been brewing for decades, including divorce, teenage pregnancy (a relative of mine about 40 years ago almost got kicked out for that and a lot of the church was divided then), another group almost split because someone got upset that a couple of gay guys had their names on the books, and it's been intense. People complained about dress codes, the roles of women, and just in one tiny conference, we almost had a split.

[@sallycripe2697]

This is interesting. I am a life long Presbyterian who just found your channel. I was a secretary of a PCUSA church for many years, and I have personally disagreed with Louisville for many of them. Did you do an explanation of the split in the PCUSA?

[@zachsmith5515]

so the Methodists split from the Church of England which itself separated from the Holy Catholic Church and now they're splitting themselves. the joys of protestantism

[@ZIEMOWITIUS]

Yes, the Catholic Church isn't nearly as susceptible to branching off like this because it doesn't make much of an effort to follow the scripture to begin with.

[@erikbunty2016]

​@POCKET-SAND No, buddy. Our Bible is still intact. Protestants, like Marty, later deleted books from the bible.

[@erikbunty2016]

Satan caused all these divisions.

[@betsylagrone8497]

Thank you so much for your video and explaining everything!

[@bobbroomfield9671]

Very well informed, thanks much. I learned a lot

[@williambarron4755]

As a Roman Catholic priest, I wish that all denominations of Christianity would take their established doctrines (and the Bible!) more seriously. That would increase our visible unity together which would be a good thing. Teachings matter!

[@RobertWilke]

Soo true, but as they say it's lost in translation. Too many allowances for different languages and beliefs have caused much of this. When you can't agree on anything division occurs. We're now seeing this writ large across the country.

[@howtubeable]

The United Methodist Church lost its way in the 1970's when General Conference voted for Theological Pluralism. Pluralism sounded nice at the time. Everybody was free to be groovy and believe whatever they wanted. Sadly, the church only embraced the lowest common denominator. Soon, the church was full of people speaking warm fuzzies. Since then, there have been no theological standards.

[@PeaceToAll-sl1db]

pray one day you will be saved from the evils of Rome

[@williambarron4755]

@@PeaceToAll-sl1db are you a troll? There is a bridge across the Tiber you can use if you want

[@raymondgreen5700]

You are member of an institution that has more blood on it's hands than any institution on earth and yet you seem to think you have a voice in this matter The father only hears the prayers of those who excepts Jesus as Lord and there isent any one else who can meditate between the creator and mankind not Mary or any saint or priest or pope the Holy spirit rules over the body of Jesus and no one else

[@PseudoPseudoDionysius]

Perhaps such separation are for the best, but it’s sad to see them happening with acrimony and feuding.

[@kimberH1005]

I was raised Methodist and very active in the church. In recent decades based on the church's views on this matter I have no longer felt at home in the church that was such a big part of my life. I am relieved to see this finally moving forward. Faith is supposed to be faith in God and love for all other people.

[@alphacharlietango969]

Well done, excellent presentation!

[@lydialangfordjoiner765]

Thank you for your presentation.

[@johnbartholf777]

Very well presented. Thanks for spelling it all out so well. And now I understand why everyone is leaving the sinking ship of the Methodist Church.

[@wilsard]

i live in jonesboro, and kept seeing news of this, but couldn't figure out what was going on, even after much searching online. thanks.

[@texassalt8999]

Thank you for explaining this. I pass by a UMC daily and it proudly flies a rainbow flag. I was wondering what was going on.

[@girlfrombrazil5632]

I wish more would. You homophobes are a disgrace.

[@salmathecopt7969]

Embarrassing. They should get torched.

[@Patrick-xd8jv]

The minister at the UMC I used to attend has a bisexual daughter in high school and flys the rainbow flag at the parsonage.

[@ThisBloke760]

I’ve been waiting for this season. Major denominations are collapsing all around the world Methodist & Anglican being the two latest. It seems that the ‘church’ is more interested in their own survival rather than spreading the gospel. Maybe this is a precursor to eventual true freedom in Christ where everyone has a relationship with Jesus and studies scripture for themselves, being guided by Holy Spirit and spreading the gospel from pure joy and excitement.

[@darth3911]

Have you not read the prophecy of revelations?

[@dunnruhlman]

Why does it seem that in the USA, most of the churches that are leaving / splitting from the UMC over this issue are in the South? Does this reflect a much larger divide in America itself?

[@paisleepunk]

yes, yes it does