The unusual trains that ran on Steam AND Diesel - Kitson Still Engine

[@erikc.1087]

Typo in the thumbnail! Alert! Alert!

[@Humulator]

what was it?

[@mariodykstra6555]

Deisel

[@tough4501]

omg omg omg!!!!111

[@kayenzky]

@@mariodykstra6555 fixed

[@erikc.1087]

@@kayenzky ayyyy

[@lalnablehector1285]

Honestly really surprised to hear how well the Kitson engine worked, compared to a lot of other experimental engines its drawbacks were very minor. Its a real shame it never got preserved because id love to know what it sounded like!

[@harrymu148]

I wonder if someone can cook up a similar engine with modern technology lol

[@lalnablehector1285]

@@harrymu148 very likely but it wouldn't go far it all in terms of commercial use.

[@StarlightKnight-hp7eg]

A really loud horn probably

[@Alex-cw3rz]

The locomotives is the most European looking, British Locomotives I've seen

[@FunAngelo2005]

Yes

[@toyotaprius79]

A locomotive that goes without "beautification"

[@aaronfield7899]

Nah, I think that honor would go to the flying Scotsman.

[@tooleyheadbang4239]

@@aaronfield7899 To the present-day turnout of that loco, yes.

[@tomwalker9497]

@@aaronfield7899 only when fitted with the German style smoke detectors. Otherwise she has the classic LNER/Gresley look.

[@michail2710]

Let me add some information on soviet hybrids. The first one ("ТП1" in cyrilic or "TP1" in latin) wasn't running on diesel but on fuel gas generated in tender right from coal. That solved the problem with two different types of fuel but produced a new one with gas generator maintenance. The second engine was named "Number 8000". It had an interesting cylinder construction: there were two pistons dividing the volume into three parts. The central was used for fuel combustion and the others for steam expansion. As far as I know the locomotive was used for passenger and light freight trains from 1942 to 1948. The third one ("Number 8001") was designed as a more powerful version of "Number 8000". The war suspended the project and later it was canceled as pure diesel locomotives became available.

[@KR4FTW3RK]

That's one crazy project! I love it. Thanks for the additional info.

[@AnimeSunglasses]

Now I really want to make a working model of these....

[@sambrown6426]

In a similar but different project, some Climax geared steam locomotives were actually converted to burn diesel fuel, using the same cylinders that originally used steam. Apparently, they worked quite well, and I believe that some of these conversions are still in service.

[@turkeytrac1]

The only time I've seen any of the American geared locos ( Shay, Heisler, Climax) converted to run on gasoline or diesel, they've had their boilers and steam cylinders removed and a ICE installed so it drove the the wheels through the existing drive train.

[@sambrown6426]

@@turkeytrac1 Interesting.

[@tooleyheadbang4239]

@@sambrown6426 There's a significant difference between a Diesel locomotive, and a steam one which burns the same oil as a Diesel.

[@sambrown6426]

@@tooleyheadbang4239 You really think you can't modify the steam cylinders to burn diesel? They've got really high compression already, all you need is to add a valve train and a fuel system.

[@tooleyheadbang4239]

@@sambrown6426 I don't think anything of the sort. Whatever gave you that idea?

[@MrDavil43]

If a model of this is brought out the sound file would be quite a challenge!

[@alsmith5604]

I've always been curious as to what this would have sounded like!

[@mastertrams]

Well, there is a Transport Fever 2 model of it... But they went with just a diesel sound file, basically ignoring the steam aspect of it...

[@aliminator1310]

I'd LOVE to see a Bachmann model of this!

[@edtheshed23]

The first ever bi-modal locomotive if you think about it.

[@SamiltonAdventures]

Hitachi, eat your heart out 🤣

[@renz1013]

More like the prius of trains but cooler

[@FunAngelo2005]

Yes

[@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis]

Let’s not forget about the Alco tri-power boxcabs.

[@quillmaurer6563]

There's also the Swiss Electric-steam locomotives, which could be powered by overhead wires running heating elements in the boiler. Those might have been later though, WWII era.

[@timbounds7190]

Seems slightly sad that it didn't get any development, given that the initial prototype seems to have worked remarkably well - many prototypes are disasters areas that need complete rethinks, but this was obviously a concept with potential. There again, as conventional diesel loco tech (and diesel electric locos) were developed, I guess that any advantage over a simpler standard diesel loco would decline over time.

[@megladon6]

Sounds like if they had focused the design more around assisting larger trains uphill it might have a had a decent market for a while. Before it was even mentioned in the video I knew it was going to have a ton of tractive effort. Two engines over one wheel set means a huge friction coefficient.

[@grizwoldphantasia5005]

The friction coefficient is a constant. The weight times the friction coefficient gives maximum pull, and the weight is limited by what the rails can tolerate. It has nothing to do with whether the weight is one big boiler or a small boiler and a small engine. The narrator says it was underpowered for its size.

[@roadtrain_]

@@grizwoldphantasia5005 The engine would've had incredible adhesion, which is why it was able to start any train it was given. It may not have as much power, but it was able to put that power down much better than normal steamies due to how heavy it was.

[@grizwoldphantasia5005]

@@roadtrain_ Adhesion is weight times coefficient of adhesion. The coefficient is the same for all steel tires on steel rails. The weight has nothing to do with having double engines. There is no special magic to this engine.

[@roadtrain_]

@@grizwoldphantasia5005 It's also about the weight on top of the wheels pressing down against the tires.

[@cr10001]

@@roadtrain_ So? What has it got (in terms of adhesion) that any other 2-6-2 tank of the same total weight hasn't got? (An 0-6-0 has even better adhesion since all of its weight is on the driving wheels). The weight is limited by the maximum permissible axle load. The Kitson-Still weighed 88 tons, 20 ton axle load, tractive effort 28,000 lb. For comparison a LNER V3 2-6-2T weighed just 59 tons with a TE of 25,000 lb (but the same max axle load). So maybe the Kitson-Still's weight was better distributed. Further afield a GWR 6100 2-6-2T weighed 79 tons with an axle load of just 17.6 tons and a TE of 27,300 lbs. So the Kitson-Still was good but, for its weight, not marvellous. As grizwold said, not magic. I suspect the starting ability of the Kitson-Still would be because its cylinders drive a crankshaft which is geared down to the wheels. Also the multiple cylinders (8) will mean much smoother torque delivery, so (possibly) less prone to starting a slip. However that gearing-down would also, I think, limit its top speed - okay for freight traffic, not so good for passenger. Also limiting its speed would be the small boiler. Note that it had limited power. Generally, the size of the cylinders determines the maximum tractive effort (amplified by gearing in the case of the Kitson-Still), the size of the boiler determines the power output. The TE dictates how heavy a load it can pull, the power dictates the speed. (Roughly).

[@Kalvinjj]

That was FAR more complex than I expected, I just thought they had gone with the same route of those electric-steam engines.

[@KlingelTimi.]

Very sad! I like the design and the Idea of this first Locomotive. I think just about 5-10 years later (in the 40ies and 50ies) this Engine could be a great sucessful helper.

[@cliffwoodbury5319]

there are so many combination/hybrid engine types that can be made and it would be cool to see them.

[@simonmcowan6874]

That's amazing, never heard of this, thank you for bringing this to our attention.

[@TheHylianBatman]

Very, very interesting! I had no idea that anybody had done anything like that.

[@alsmith5604]

I've been fascinated by this loco for years... thanks for the video!

[@imitt12]

The 5/8 narrow gauge railroad I've spoken about uses primarily diesel locomotives for their regular rolling stock, but the V&T #11 4-4-0 replica they've got uses diesel oil as its heat source for the steam boiler. Which makes a lot more sense than a hybrid diesel/steam locomotive, honestly.

[@Gearz-365]

A rare example of an experimental engine being successful. Plus I love both the design and concept of a locomotive like this. Makes me wish they experimented more on this type of engine so they could improve the power and maybe increase the efficiency even more

[@lazyrrr2411]

Unique ! 👌 Maybe one day you'll cover Fire-less , or "Steam Bottle" locomotives

[@Genius_at_Work]

Sort-of already happened. The Swiss Electric Steam Locomotives often worked as Fireless Locomotives on un-electrified Tracks.

[@obrysii]

I believe BMW and a few semi-truck producers toyed with having a secondary steam engine using the waste heat from exhaust to improve horsepower and/or provide generator power.

[@skovner]

It must have been a somewhat different Diesel engine than we are used to; the diagram of the stationary engine at the beginning shows a spark plug, and typically, Diesels are compression ignition; they don't use spark plugs. Quite interesting video.

[@Gearz-365]

Diesel engines do use glow plugs but that's only for starting. Once the engine gets hot enough, the glow plugs are turned off and the engine can run off its own heat

[@stefangherman8408]

How it felt like that this steam-diesel locomotive was featured on Thomas and Friends.

[@andrerousseau5730]

Suggestion for a future episode: the Anderson-Holcroft Mechanical Vapour-ReCompression, semi-condensing steam locomotice. Little-known and VERY interesting!

[@SamiltonAdventures]

Pretty cool to know it was used in my neck of the woods, back in its day!

[@vincentstuer]

I feel like this could have been a great engine to have in areas where diesel was already common like oil refineries or later on harbours

[@Sp4mMe]

One unfortunate aspect of reality is that these complex engineering projects basically always are some level of failure and always get outcompeted by simpler designs that might be able to do less, but do what they do more cheaply, more reliably, more predictably, and often also just plain better ...

[@henny6932]

3:10 THIS THING LOOKS SOOOOO AWESOME!!!

[@SodorTrain1225]

Weirdly, I first found out about this through "Sudrian Conflict", if anyone remembers that series.

[@detroitredneckdetroitredne6674]

Hello from Detroit Michigan brother thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise

[@lazyrrr2411]

... former "Downriver Rat" here

[@aaronfield7899]

Thanks for taking my request!

[@Hawkeye1701]

On today's episode of guess that music... Oil Ocean Zone Act 2 from Sonic Mania! (GREAT choice!)

[@echoi7119]

Literally a Toyota Prius in locomotive terms 🤣

[@tooleyheadbang4239]

Literally?

[@Froobyone]

Fascinating and also surprising to hear she ran to Dairycoates in my home city.

[@ShadowDragon8685]

The funny thing is, just the other night I was quipping "What's the most ridiculous locomotive power description I can think of? 'Diesel-Steam!'" It actually happened? That's insane. And awesome.

[@Lucius_Chiaraviglio]

Not as ridiculous as electric-steam, of which 2 examples actually existed in Switzerland during World War II and for a short time thereafter: E 3/3 #8521 and #8522 (look up Electric-steam locomotive on Wikipedia), the latter of which has been preserved in working but steam-only order (they removed the electric heaters in the early 1950s). Admittedly, electric-steam is much simpler to build (actually they retrofitted this onto existing steam locomotives due to a shortage of coal).

[@tooleyheadbang4239]

@@Lucius_Chiaraviglio The only point of the electric steam locomotive was to keep an existing locomotive at work during a coal shortage. To build an electrically-heated steam locomotive from scratch would be utterly pointless.

[@Lucius_Chiaraviglio]

@@tooleyheadbang4239 Exactly. I didn't say it was a good thing to do for any other purpose.

[@Evaunit98]

The LNER was weirdly into odd projects like this

[@davidty2006]

Quite like to experiment with stuff. NER did a bit before them mainly with small railcars.

[@TheGreyTurtleEntertainment]

I will never not call these Steaisels.

[@iankemp1131]

It's interesting to note that in modern combined heat and power schemes it is common to recover high-grade waste heat from the exhaust, often by raising steam, and low-grade waste heat from the cooling jacket. But it needs a lot of bulk. The Kitson-Still loco was ahead of its time as the first successful UK diesel mainline engines didn't appear till 1948. But for the extra size and weight of a steam raising boiler, you might as well have a bigger and more powerful diesel engine instead, even at slightly lower efficiency. A steam engine is very inefficient compared to a diesel; less than 10% heat turned into power against 40%.

[@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391]

So even if you do a really good job of recovering the waste heat from a diesel engine, you'd be lucky to get 5% more power.

[@iankemp1131]

@@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391 That's basically right. Which is why in small-scale CHP schemes based on diesel or gas engines, the waste heat is used just for steam heat and space heating. The only exception is very large power stations with gas turbines, where there is enough high-temperature waste heat to run a steam turbine as well and squeeze out a bit of extra power (combined cycle). But there you have literally acres of space, so size and weight is not a consideration.

[@ericcrockett479]

Very interesting, never knew such a thing ever existed

[@herbiethelovebugfan5380]

The Steamies and the diesels would shut tf up when that engine shows up

[@joerivanlier1180]

CODAS is used in vessels as well, but nowadays its only used to heat the fuel and make fresh water.

[@dragonblaster-vu8wz]

I can't help but think this design could be improved on today. Perhaps with 2 cabs like some diesel engines, one at the front, and 1 at the rear

[@Thinginator]

This video is surreal to me because I was thinking of almost this exact idea and now this video is here saying it's actually been done before... so I'm not entirely crazy for thinking it's a good idea! There are definitely numerous ways the design could be improved today, like using a diesel-electric drivetrain coupled with steam cylinders. The diesel drivetrain eliminates the need for the cab to be at the rear, which makes the layout much more flexible. We also have many advances in material science today which would make steam engines much better if people were still making them. I'm just convinced there's a ton of untapped potential in steam technology in general, especially if combined with internal combustion engines like this.

[@Dampfzuege_Krefeld_u_Umgebung]

If you want to make a Video about it, there is a steam engine here in Krefeld Germany that is powered by a diesel Motor running an electric generator wich then heats the Oil that fires the engine. The trains name is "Schluff"

[@PoipoleBoi]

Awesome oil ocean music, perfect fit for this vid

[@drywallpuncher1882]

This would be an interesting design to try today.

[@Bean_Goods]

Ah yes, the Stiesel.

[@S3TH3]

Trains are ducking cool man

[@jaswmclark]

The Kitson-Still principle is alive and well as Co-Generation plants use the exhaust heat from a gas turbine to generate steam for a steam turbine.

[@JaneDoe-dg1gv]

more specifically in diesel peaking stations that include heat recovery boilers.

[@NessWithABeard]

This strangely reminded me of Tobias and the Half Pariah.

[@mattevans4377]

I presume diesel electric hadn't gained traction yet (pun intended). Diesel electric solves the torque problem with electric motors, which have instant and powerful torque.

[@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391]

Imagine a steam loco with electricity driven tender wheels, loads of drawbar pull at low speeds.

[@tooleyheadbang4239]

@@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391 A booster engine on the rear bogie would be simpler.

[@Videoman2000]

I doubt that Swiss diesel-steam engine was ever built. There are quite good archives in Switzerland, and such a curiosity would have been widely know. I mean there were the electric steam locomotives during WW2.

[@SoggyCoffeeAddict]

Correct me if I'm wrong, is the background music one of the older sonic game's stage music? Like the oil levels, or underground/jungle (honestly don't remember what it was)

[@AtreiusLux]

Yes, Oil Ocean Zone from Sonic 2.

[@LegacyIvyTerascale]

the idea of using heat from petrol / diesel engine is like reusing exhaust back into the engine or regenerative braking 🤔 , at least temporary like a NOS tank

[@sitinoraidatul]

bro diesel powered with a steam loco? very interesting stuff

[@KingOp0ssum_II]

Interesting design I wonder if it'd work now since coal and diesel are now more abundant and mostly cheaper and fuel efficiency and high start up rate is kinda the craze in the railroad industry

[@samsthebeztatstuff8885]

I’m surprised none of these appeared on Thomas

[@FerdinandProductions2021]

Well, in my version of Journey Beyond Sodor, Theo (one of the experimental engines) is based on this instead of a modified Aveling and Porter TJ Class.

[@TheStickCollector]

This is what modern Americans want in a stream engine, probably

[@nekomasteryoutube3232]

Interesting how the background music for this was a remix of Sonic 2 - Oil Ocean Zone (as far as I can tell)

[@oleksii_levenko]

So that’s how Aurora from Metro Exodus works

[@HSMiyamoto]

The design may look crazy, but diesel-mechanical, diesel-hydraulic, and diesel-electric locomotives are also complicated. Plus electric technology was much less advanced then compared to today.

[@simonmcowan6874]

Thats got to be Hornby's next for April 1st.

[@dejulesb974]

Somehow I think this would work nowadays, if it was well developed. Considering oil is more abundant and common fuel.

[@inferno7169]

A train that actually ran on diesel and steam I’m TRIGGERED.

[@f-1492]

This is a unique idea. My favorite one was undoubtedly the one from Russia. I like the Sonic Mania Oil Ocean Act 2 music in the background

[@templar_1138]

Unfortunate. It's like the hybrid car of locomotives.

[@TheDemocrab]

We had trains that ran on diesel *and* steam in Victoria...albeit they were normal oil-burning steam engines that VR had just started burning diesel in for the last few years of steam when it became too expensive to have stocks of oil just for a handful of shunters.

[@tooleyheadbang4239]

They ran on two different grades of oil, rather than two different operating cycles.

[@BLUEMOUNTEN22]

this engine showd be a thomas character...and i think ill call her "riyley"

[@BHuang92]

Thank you!

[@microbusss]

I have read about steam locos being converted to run on a diesel motor like same steam loco but a diesel motor was put in the firebox instead

[@romycarldelacruz1980]

“They say I can be anything so a became both”

[@TheEerieMaster]

I'd kill for a oo model of this locomotive 🤣

[@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis]

Can we please build a working replica of the Kitson-Still locomotive? After all, it would be able to pull at speed any train it can start.

[@cr10001]

Why would it be able to reach high speed? The driving wheels are geared down from the crankshaft. The Kitson-Still had a design top speed of 43mph, later raised to 55mph.

[@jenniferlamperski6250]

Is that Oil Ocean Music :)

[@Toonrick12]

I wonder if this could of worked in the US. I can imagine them running in Texas or Michigan, hauling light express freight between Dallas and Fort Worth or Detroit and Dearborn.

[@datprawn4850]

Can you please do a Steam Motors Locomotive next?

[@tif2247]

You should cover Electric-Steam Locomotives. The only example I could find was a electrified SBB E 3/3 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric-steam_locomotive

[@KR4FTW3RK]

What the FUCK am I looking at? I've seen some weird locomotives but this takes the cake. Edit: The madman actually made a vid on it some time ago: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pqLWpnWgaZWtrZo

[@ieuanbriers]

I think this engine should be called a 'Stiesel'.

[@symarvel4836]

Didn’t you do this already?

[@catschow9166]

There was a segment in my book called (I didn't know that......did you know that trains run on water) weird name I know

[@laszlokaestner5766]

The first hybrid.

[@aarmani909]

I love trains

[@Dulaman107]

You should do heilmann locomotives next

[@minibus9]

awesome video

[@ImmortalAbsol]

Love it.

[@roshasensi2220]

this loco did not know what team it wanted to be on so it just chose both

[@crestfallensunbro6001]

I'm playing both sides that way I always come out on top

[@roshasensi2220]

@@crestfallensunbro6001 to bad if you pick both sides your company goes bankrupt

[@toyotaprius79]

Eugh

[@crestfallensunbro6001]

@@roshasensi2220 it's a sitcom refrance

[@roshasensi2220]

@@crestfallensunbro6001 what the hell is a sitcom?

[@spirospagiatis4731]

Make a video about the SEK Mα class locomotives, they were the biggest and strongest steam engines in Greece but they were bad steamers and for that reason their owners sent them to Germany to replace their fire boxes with fuel boxes, (that's right, from steam engines to diesel engines) and it was a great success. The locos became much more useful than before, only two of them still exist, the one of the two has become a dinner theater.

[@cr10001]

Errm, converting a coal-fired steam loco to burn oil fuel makes it an oil-fired steam loco, but not a 'diesel' engine. Even if it burns 'diesel' oil.

[@tooleyheadbang4239]

@@cr10001 A common mistake. People think that 'Diesel' is the fuel. It isn't; it's the operating cycle.

[@CoolAsFreya]

I thought the title was talking about oil burning steam locomotives, which often burned diesel to create the steam. Using the waste heat of a diesel engine is way more complex!

[@tooleyheadbang4239]

An engine which uses heat to raise steam is called a STEAM engine. A Diesel engine is a different technology altogether. 'Diesel' is NOT a type of fuel. It is a technology developed by the engineer of that name.

[@harrisonallen651]

These would be too expensive to run today

[@jllewisx1]

The first hybrid engine

[@agushillairet9493]

Nice Video!

[@menguardingtheirownwallets6791]

Here is a much better idea: Have the exhaust heat from the diesel engine being used to power a STIRLING ENGINE, which turns a generator to add power to a set of batteries. Those batteries then assist the diesel engine. Hey, lets add this to a Toyota Prius and end up with a Prius that gets 80 mpg?

[@hansformer9556]

You should look at Swiss electric powered steam locomotive

[@tancoplays3502]

You should do a video on the GE genesis class to celebrate thair 30th anniversary

[@ChimpManZ1264]

Like how Diesel was a foreign concept to our knowledge at the time so the Middle East Oil Ocean Sonic Mania Remix has me that more engaged in this short video! 🛢️🦔

[@thatlittlefox.]

0:41 what are those "walls" in The front of The loco for?

[@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391]

They often fitted steam locomotives with a "shed" on the front for test engineers to monitor pressure gauges, speed readings, measure cylinder pressure during stroke etc, you have to remember everything was measured machannicaly, with no wires or telemetory. The closest they got was a squiggly line on a roll of paper.

[@mayohoskotwrandttte]

Maybe Tobias was inspired by this engine

[@StarlightKnight-hp7eg]

Bruh, imagine if they tried to redo the experiment again in modern times would it replace steam engines and diesels?

[@classicforreal]

Modern cruise ships actually use this

[@May-The-Tank-Engine]

Choo Choo Charles be like ;-;

[@toyotaprius79]

Very disappointing no one seemed to put conventional steam power together with battery electric and regen power. Both are stores of energy. Steam and electric propulsion compliment their strengths and balance out their weak spots pretty well, and regen makes use of recharging from recapturing the momentum of an entire train. It could be done now.

[@Scotty8472]

why the Sonic BGM lmao. I'm not complaining cuz I like but it's a bit random?