The Use of Magic in Tolkien's Universe - Building a World

Magic serves to further the plot in Tolkien's works, but it is used in a conservative way in order to focus on the courage and willpower of the characters to make the world safe from the Shadow. Let me know your thoughts about magic in the legendarium in the comments below! Thank you all for watching, and a great thanks to the online artists who created the visuals featured in this video!
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[@BlueGhostofSeaside]

Magic diminishing in the Third Age was always really sad to me. I love the high fantasy feel of the first two ages and seeing it end kind of feels like you're stepping out of Middle Earth and into the boring real world. :/ Still, the use of magic in Tolkien's works is amazing while it lasts.

[@andreykuzmin4355]

To me the Hobbit and the LOTR are coming of age stories. Magic and wonder is gradually replaced by banal and mundane, and no wizard or magic blade can save heroes anymore. Only they themselves can.

[@sakamoto2467]

Thats exactly what going on. Tolkien wrote lotr to replace England's lost folklore before the Saxons arrived. Magic must necessarily vanish.

[@PW-636]

JRRT didn't consider what teh elves did to be magic and Galadriel only refers to it to dumb it down for the Hobbits. Tolkien saw the use of magic as a "fall"

[@JJJ111JJJ]

That was actually intentional by Tolkien. Setting the Lord of the Rings in an autumnal and 'declining' world makes the remnants of the past seem all the more magical and beautiful. This was one of the reasons nothing like the Silmarillion was published during his lifetime. Even though I like that book, I can understand him. Once you explore something like this in depth, it loses much of the mystery that drew you to it in the first place.

[@pongop]

I agree!

[@77777Spooky]

I always thought that the spells of wizards were related to the music of the ainur. Since all wizards were maiar, which were ainur, I figured that their spells and incantations were an extension of the music, which gave shape to the whole world. This extension was what gave wizards their power. That's just my theory.

[@sandorsbox]

77777Spooky interestingly, the LDS church holds that a similar power was used by Moses, Christ and other subsequent miracle workers in our world.

[@SantomPh]

Gandalf and Saruman were known to learn their skills over time including their wizarding powers- Saruman's voice, Gandalf's spontaneous fire etc

[@BlackJar72]

I think there is a lot to this. I know they were among the weakest of the maiar, but excellent in wisdom, and that is why they were chosen. They understand the world and how it works, and can use that.

[@JerodimusPrime]

@SantomPh All 5 of the wizards had great knowledge and skill in magic when they were miar. It's only when they became wizards on middle earth they had a lot of their previous power and knowledge blocked from the by the Valar as a limit on what they should be allowed to do on middle earth. That's why they had to relearn some of these skills. As miar they have already great skill and knowledge in magic. I think 77777Spooky explanation of how magic works in valid since the Valar are the most powerful spirits because they existed in the beginning and heard more of Eru Ilúvatar's song of creation thus understood more of the force that creates everything. It's also of note that Morgoth was the first being of creation and is also the most powerful of the spirits. This would be because he heard more of the song of creation than any other being except for Eru Ilúvatar himself, thus could manipulate the force of creation more than any of the Valar or miar. Knowledge is power, and in this Tolkin's world knowledge of the song of creation is what probably is, the more you understand the song the more you can manipulate the force that created everything.

[@gibranlewis7300]

Not really. Narya's power was more related to dispelling fear and despair, sustaining the heart, joy and courage of Elder days in a world growing wan, preserving in a way similar to Nenya maintaining the timelessness of Lothlorien. Gandalf's skill with fire enchantments, just like his ability to make the waves of the rushing Bruinnen take on the shape of great white horses, would not really have been a function of Narya.

[@Actalzy]

You left out that in Tolkien's universe that 'energy' or 'magic' is finite. This is another reason magic is used less and less as the ages go on. Best examples are the dark lords, when Melkor first arose he was said to be so powerful that all other Valar feared him and even if they tried that there power combined couldn't stop him. Yet by the end of his reign he was so weakened by his constant use of power to "create" his armies, warping other races and such that he couldn't even regenerate the wounds given to him in the fight with the elf king. Sauron used so much that after his body was destroyed during the wrath of the gods against the Dunadain that once he reformed he found it impossible to shift his form anymore, something that was his trademark pretty much up until then. It is one of the driving forces for him to make the one ring, he thought he could get around the fate of losing his power from over use by having the one ring as a sort of battery(Along with the other perks it brought such as corrupting those who had the other rings.). This is also shown with the elves, who at first could go one on one with Balrogs and heck as I said above even a god if needed, elves were so much stronger physically and magically. But as the ages go by it is shown they get weaker and weaker. I mean Legolas take on a Balrog or Sauron one on one? Not gonna happen, his father in his prime probably could've done it. I believe though like you said, this is used as another way to limit the use of magic in the universe, as the only ones that abused the power became corrupted and there was a price in the end.

[@zoom2409]

I thought that the reason Melkor lost his power was because he had cut himself off from its source, Eru. this same logic applies to Sauron. As to the high elves they were told rather sternly by the Valar to leave middle earth after Melkor's defeat and their slow loss of power can be seen as an effect of their delay to obey the Valar. In my opinion the "Magic" of the elves is linked to their connection with the spirits ie the Valar or Maiar. The high elves are more powerful then the other elves because they once had a direct connection with the Valar. While the other elves have to settle for the lesser spirits of middle earth. Also Legolas is a Green elf and not a high elf.

[@MenoftheWest]

You have a great point! Thought energy can really be applied to most anything. I mean even Shadowfax needed a rest after taking Gandalf and Pippin to Minas Tirith. It almost goes without saying that a level of magic would be finite as there is no way even a Vala could keep a constant stream of energy to power their own environment, army and selves.

[@tyleebutler]

Tolkien makes clear throughout his writings that the "power" or "magic" different beings used, is expended from their own spirit and virtue and that over time continued use, particularly in the service of evil, does "decay" or diminish. Check out in the Silmarilion, how even Yavanna when it came to the trees, indicated that there are some things even the mighty can only accomplish once. Same with Feanor and the Silmarils. So even with their power and virtue, it was not unlimited and when they had expended it, there was something missing that they could not attain anymore. That is a fairly consistent theme throughout Tolkien's work with all of the different classes of beings who inhabit Middle-Earth. He specifically says about Melkor that his might diminished because he "expended" it in pouring out into evil, misshaping creatures and controlling the minds of his minions.

[@tyleebutler]

Tolkien makes clear throughout his writings that the "power" or "magic" different beings used, is expended from their own spirit and virtue and that over time continued use, particularly in the service of evil, does "decay" or diminish. Check out in the Silmarilion, how even Yavanna when it came to the trees, indicated that there are some things even the mighty can only accomplish once. Same with Feanor and the Silmarils. So even with their power and virtue, it was not unlimited and when they had expended it, there was something missing that they could not attain anymore. That is a fairly consistent theme throughout Tolkien's work with all of the different classes of beings who inhabit Middle-Earth. He specifically says about Melkor that his might diminished because he "expended" it in pouring out into evil, misshaping creatures and controlling the minds of his minions.

[@sophiejones7727]

Glorfindel didn't really "take on" a Balrog. He pushed it off a cliff. Both he and the Balrog were physically destroyed: but for his heroism Glorfindel was basically put at the head of the list of spirits to receive new bodies from Mandos. He didn't survive the encounter, he was resurrected. Likewise, Fingolfin was horrendously outmatched when he fought Morgoth. It's never stated why Morgoth limps after fighting Fingolfin, but it doesn't seem to be a general inability to heal wounds. It might be that Fingolfin bound his soul inside the wound. Remember, Iluvatar intervened to destroy Numenor: and it seems to be implied that it was Iluvatar who made it so that Sauron couldn't get a new body. There's no evidence that magic is finite. Frodo isn't the first person that Elrond has cured of the Morgul curse, but it's not implied that Elrond has any more difficulty doing it now than he did before. Likewise, we see Aragorn do the same thing several times: but his abilities never wane. At the very end of LotR, Galadriel destroys Dol Guldur, pretty much single-handed. This demonstrates that her powers have not appreciably diminished from earlier. Magic is leaving the world, but it's because powerful *individuals* are leaving. Of course, distinguishing what is magic from what is just wisdom is deliberately tricky. Does Thranduil use magic to keep the woods flourishing? or is this just mad skills? Is a palantir magical? or is it technology? I would be tempted to say that palantiri and silmarili and such are not magic: just highly advanced technology. I think only powers whose source is divine are properly termed "magic" (gûl): anything else would be more properly understood as "learning" (istannen). Of course, characters who have one quite often have the other.

[@cam9378]

Any time Glorfindel is mentioned, you know it's gonna be good.

[@jamesandthemgiantcheeks2798]

Oh yeah

[@brandonboucher7090]

Glorfindel is the shit…rivaled only by Tom Bombadil.

[@manicmechanic1881]

my mother has been a student of Tolkien since the mid 1960s(my bed time stories as a child 40 yrs ago)and I've recently showed her your channel and contents and she conceded your knowledge of lotr even eclipses hers lol

[@MenoftheWest]

manic mechanic Oh I'm not sure about that! I'm sure she is an incredible Tolkien scholar!

[@samiyahcorelli7688]

manic mechanic mom goals

[@lanas.2093]

Oh my God. What kind of person he was? Please tell me I'm curious

[@wright534]

A good commentary on the subject. I think another aspect of magic in Tolkien's world is that it's not just inherent in the nature of beings like Galadriel and Gandalf, but in part a deep understanding of how the world actually works; an understanding that can only be acquired over a very long period of time. This ties into the older characters in the books usually being the wisest and most powerful. As Gandalf says when he meets Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in Fangorn, "A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to; the long explanations needed by the young are wearying."

[@silverdragon710]

“A deep understanding of how the world works” boom! That’s exactly what I think too.

[@frankcastleisdead7473]

Bro, can you come to my house and read me a bedtime story? And check my closet for monsters? 😢

[@frankcastleisdead7473]

rijiriju, it was a joke mate.

[@1776PonySoldier]

He does have a soothing voice. Could read a cereal box and sound eloquent

[@WaltuhGaming1]

@@rijiriju Why do you say that are you gay

[@ALEXANDERATTACK]

@@rijiriju so what if he is?

[@kryoruleroftheninthcircleo4151]

rijiriju *S L A P*

[@cheezemonkeyeater]

I had a friend I used to play D&D with who explained a similar concept of Divine Power like so: "It's not magic, it's just something they do. It's a way of looking at the world that lets you do miraculous things in the same way mortals flex muscles."

[@edgardtheknowledgekeeper3119]

I love Tolkien's use of magic. I think it well done. Not over used and carrying a proper amout of mystery of how it works. It's kinda frustrating at the same time though, because magic systems interest me a great deal and I would have liked a explanation of how it works. I do a fair amount of writing myself in my spare time(in part inspired by Tolkien), and I invent different Magics in my stories.

[@Liquidcadmus]

one of the things I love the most about Tolkiens lore is that magic is indeed a subtle thing and not the absurd nonsense you would see in most fantasy universes.

[@Badboyben1422]

A great video! I really love lotr! But a question remains, then the Fellowship, Gandalf creates fire using a word, he says that, "I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves, Men and Orcs." And that he could name 10 score off the top of his head used for opening doors. And then the second time when Gandalf uses a word of command to seal a door before the Balrog used a counter-spell and the door broke asunder. Maybe there is a little more to magic that can still be discussed, but more around Gandalf using it.

[@MenoftheWest]

Dragorath Tatsu Definitely, and there is something to be said about knowing lore and ancient tunes as Gandalf does as both time and words carry powers of their own, as Gandalf knows well. That is a great commentary, thank you for mentioning it!

[@JohnAPrescott]

I was going to say the same thing, but you already did! I think a lot more can be said about magic that Tolkien didn't really get a chance to actually explain...along with a plethora of other things....let's not forget Gandalf growing to tall as the trees when the wargs attacked them before entering Moria...

[@sylvaincousineau5073]

Very interesting , this help a lot to understand the purpose and how to approache magic for my D&D Adventure in Middle Earth campaign . Your channel is a great source of inspirations .

[@jamiedutton7257]

Dude thank you for putting lore of middle earth in to context gaining more of an insight in to this world in such a humble and entertaining way has been priceless hope you keep it up you have enough works to play with so I look forward to bing watching the next lot

[@juanpablo3969]

Always wondered why magic is so inexplicable in the books, thank you for enlightening me as you always do.

[@ThomasK96]

Michael Cordova because tolkien was Catholic. And Catholic believe that magic Witchcraft and sorcery is evil. Well that my two cents

[@zacharycollins9485]

Thomas K96 well thats true for sure dude but there's a difference in Light magic (Jesus,Gandalf) and Dark magic (Satan,Sauron) it's like the Force in Star Wars just joking its just that the word magic has gotten a bad rap now-a-days i mean there are definitely evil magic voodoo crazies out there and i personally don't mess with that stuff but there's also good magic faith meditation love and patience my brotha magic is just seeing things in a new way

[@rasnac]

The way I see it: elves ARE magic. So when an elf, especially an old and elf with powerful will and wisdom make something, a blade, a robe or a lumb of bread, or a simple rope, it becomes magical naturally. The energy they spent on carfting an item and the will power they focused while making it gives the item a piece of the power and will of the maker.

[@truthattackuncensored3079]

thats very insightful

[@kyleenglot9184]

Much of the magic seems to come from the Qualequendi elves. Those that were fortunate to travel to Valinor upon the Valar's request. The Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri elves lived among the Valar themselves. I think much of their magical knowledge was gained due to their close proximity to the Valar and learning from them. When the Noldor left in pursuit of Morgoth they were able to take some of their magical knowledge and share it with the "lesser" elven races and eventually the Dunedain when they inherited Numenore. The Noldor elves set up trade and knowledge with their Numenorean friends. I think the elves even helped or gifted the Nunenoreans with the Pelantirs they inherited.

[@SR567895]

Not quite, they're just so skilled at making things, that they seem magic to the other races. Tolkien, writing about the Elves: "Their ‘magic’ is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous reforming of Creation."

[@JJJ111JJJ]

I've always thought of Tolkien's 'magic' as just a manifestation of a character's spirit and essence. It's more like real world legend and mythology than the type of rigid comic book magic we see in modern fantasy. Isildur is able to curse the betrayers of Gondor because he has mandate as king, and Aragorn in turn has authority to command them and to break the curse, because he's the heir to the throne. They're not wizards of course, and the curse is rather just a way to demonstrate their might. And in Aragorn's case it proves he's worthy of the crown, like Arthur drawing the sword from the stone. I don't see it as "This guy is a maiar, so he can do this and that while this man or elf can do this". In Tolkien's mind, characters like Feanor, Glorfindel, Galadriel etc were probably mightier and more 'skilled' than Gandalf. Gandalf was chosen because of his compassion and humility.

[@connorhansen1640]

Great video! In "On Fairy Stories", Tolkien also drew a clear distinction between magic (devices of meant to decieve and dominate) and enchantment (used associated with Faerie, especially the Elves, meant to enhance and preserve). The essay was written before LOTR, but still is relevant for representing Tolkien's views. Kind of off topic, but also related to a couple of your points in the video.

[@quitasistanumberone]

Oh Yoysten......your words are understandable.....and more the beautiful....stunning...listening......you speak Tolkien's everything...you hear him....wow....

[@archades115]

An excellent analysis and explanation. Completely sensible and to the point. I have always had a profound fascination with magic, and when looking to fiction for inspiration, Tolkien's works have been my go to. For exactly as you said. Magic in his works is subtle and conservative. Not vulgar displays of raw power that warp the laws of nature beyond recognition. I would also like to point out that Tolkien's use of the terms and ideas for Mageia and Goteia are Greek in origin. Mageia, "High Magic", the powers of divination, healing, and communing with gods and angels (good spirits). Whereas Goteia is "Under Magic" the powers of entropy, bindings, and dealing with the ghosts and demons (evil spirits). I find the correlation fascinating.

[@intzbk1]

Nice, thanks for that tidbit of information! I didn't know that.

[@rijiriju]

goeteia means charm or enchantment. a goes is a charmer.

[@TheGeekMonster]

Well done! I run a group online for Lord of the Rings Online (LOTRO) roleplayers, and the question of magic comes up constantly. Your points are exactly what we tell people! I've shared this video with my group, as well as many others. Your content is wonderful!

[@klutzy2605]

It’s crazy how good Tolkien was at world building

[@Blarg6306]

Awesome video, well thought out. It's interesting to see how two friends, Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, handled magic in their own works and how they differed so much.

[@zacharycollins9485]

Blarg6306 Dude so epic! What a monolithic literary friendship they created the best fantasy worlds in my opinion (Wonderland after them in 3rd place!) Tolkien's world is obviously on a much grander scale than CS Lewis' and Tolkien had subtle christian undertones in his stories but CS Lewis straight-up jacked scenes out of the Bible with very obvious christian overtones in his works but anyway yeah they're the best! It's the characters the maps and the classic british genius that made Narnia and Middle-Earth so awesome and timeless i want to go there so badly! In Valmar, in Valinor! To behold the light of the two trees! Telperion and Laurelin! My heart yearns, no lie!

[@genevievetostevin6734]

Great video! I never really thought that much about the use of magic in the books, but I think that was way Tolkien wanted it. The type of magic in the elves Maiar and rings is just another aspect of them and not something that exists outside of those characters. Like you said, magic is just what you don't understand and if you understood what it was or why it was it wouldn't be magic anymore. I think this is why Galadriel didn't understand what the hobbits meant by megic; she understood her own powers.

[@SirRelith]

Simply Wonderful! I left a comment suggesting this idea on one of your videos. And now that video exists. So cool! :D Thanks man!

[@shanegoins9307]

This is a very beautifully made video, slides depicting the Art is something that many cannot do! Great Job:)

[@playboy6061]

I think that magic in Tolkien books is Will bound and/or Spirit bound, since most of the time the more radiant a spirit is (human

[@bacomancer]

What a treat!.. this channel is. Glad i found it. Well done sir.

[@lukeskywalkerthe2nd773]

Awesome video Men Of The West I think it was imo good that Tolkien didn't use magic that much in his Legendarium as well and I honestly love the way of how it was conserved and used by him especially in The Lord Of The Rings but in the end its a very interesting topic on how Tolkien used it in his Legendarium and I love the way you explained it! :)

[@andresfp0128]

Brilliant Yoystan! I enjoyed this vid more than I had expected. Magic in Tolkien's world gives a lot of think about!

[@palazard95]

Thank you so much for taking my suggestion! Such a great explanation

[@sarasolomon4812]

The video mentions the wisdom and advanced nature of Elven Society. It makes me think about our modern world. If someone time traveled from 500 years ago, to our modern world, we would be like elves, living lives steeped in magic. Our science and technology looks very magical to an objective outsider. We would even look magical compared to historical humans, with our healthy bodies, our shiny flowing hair, our clean skin, and straight teeth. Our clothes are soft and brightly colored, our hands soft and uncalloused. I'm sitting now, on my soft mattress, in my warm apartment, with glass windows, clean white walls, and bright lights. I'm tapping away on a small glowing rectangle that holds within it all the wisdom of mankind at the touch of my fingers. I can make rich and exotic foods within minutes, contact my loved ones from thousands of miles away, and music surrounds me. That's it folks, we're officially elves.

[@johndododoe1411]

Yet we are so reckless we are about to have the world die with us . We rekindled an old war because many of our elders swore oaths to preserve and restore contradictory outcomes of that past . And we consume everything like a swarm of locust.

[@aaroncwiklinski8736]

Awesome!! I really like how Tolkien approached "magic" but it goes beyond just fireballs. Looking forward to the next video.

[@gianlucaborg195]

Keep it up, would be interested in seeing something on why Glorfindel didn't kill the Witch King, since he was no man, but an elf, and could have, or Elrond on the other hand, who could and actually had a sort of opportunity after the fall of Angmar and at the attack on Carn Doom

[@blakehillman6494]

Gianluca Borg, I just saw something recently that shed some light on the killing of the Witch King of Angmar. The hobbit Merry had an enchanted dagger given him by Tom Bombadil, which is mentioned in the books, and not the movies. He ended up using that dagger to stab the Witch King in the back of the leg right before Eowyn dealt the killing blow. The dagger's power broke the Witch King's invulnerability somehow, making it possible for Eowyn to kill him.

[@joshuaridgway4]

Well when the prophecy was made, glorfindel also said that his doom was far off. It wasn't time yet

[@darganism4338]

I think Blake's point is closest to home - the blade from the Barrow Downs was a crucial factor, which Jackson skipped over, and I always understood it to be one of the unique factors which brought about the Witch King's fall.

[@michaelcoulter1114]

Gianluca Borg Elves do not kill, if they are given a choice. Only when no alternatives are given them do Elves extinguish life, witness the captivity of Gollum in the hands of the Wood-Elves in the beginning of the LotR, he was allowed to escape, as the Elves thought his spirit was lifted by allowing him to climb the trees, and they were concerned even with the wellbeing of that wretch!

[@SantomPh]

Michael Coulter Elves are very willing to kill Orcs and evil men without a thought. With Gollum they could not bear to cage him like Treebeard was unwilling to keep Saruman in Orthanc. Plus they were keeping him for Aragorn and were never going to kill Gollum in da first place Let's not say Elves don't kill, they simply reserve it for the most evil of things (and hunting, apparently).

[@Thraim.]

I never was able to get a good grasp at what magic is and how it works in Tolkien's books. Kinda glad to hear that it is ambiguous on purpose, because I was starting to feel like a dumbass. Still, I'm going to give my 2 cents. What is called _magic_ seems to be the power of the "gods", bestowed to them to create the world. The evil guys are "evil" because they corrupt this power to use it for the opposite effect, destroying the world. To the outside observer Galadriel and Sauron seem very alike. Both are ancient beings of great might, using their powers to shape the world around them to their liking. But where Galadriel uses her powers to preserve what is good and alive, guarding what was created even before she was born, Sauron only seeks to corrupt and destroy. Looking at it from this perspective it makes sense that Galadriel is puzzled that her and Sauron's _magic_ would be called the same kind of power.

[@Aeir100]

To build a catapult and to build a wall both rely upon 'construction' so... perhaps not quite the best example.

[@Thraim.]

Using fire to cook a meal and using a fire to burn down a house with all the people inside it is fundamentally the same, yet one is a daily occurrence and the other is called "arson" and "gets you in jail". Two things that look the same can still be very different from each other, which was the whole point.

[@Aeir100]

Yes, but the fire is still fire. The acts may be distinct, but the tool remains the same. Perhaps she is simply confused it be considered 'more,' somehow, than that which others who lack such 'magic' perform on their own.

[@Thraim.]

_"Yes, but the fire is still fire."_ But there is a wide variety of fires. A fire made by burning wood is wildly different from a fire made by burning oil in terms of brightness, heat, rate of spread and ways to extinguish. Oil fires get worse when you try to stop them with water, napalm will keep burning even when completely submerged in water. You just perfectly showed why the Hobbits can't distinguish between elven magic and dark magic with your overly broad definition of fire. On the surface both look the same, but the devil always lies in the details and they simply don't have the knowledge needed.

[@FantasticExplorers]

AdalRoderick Nice!

[@samueldavidrucker7514]

Another excellent video. As the professor who wrote the preface for the Ballantine Books American edition said, Tolkien didn't create the world he portrayed, he simply expanded our vision of a world already in existence; which is why it is one of the great works of art and so perfect in so many ways - he channeled it from the Spirit....

[@wleostark4434]

This video is the best I ever saw. You talked about Arda with all your heart and show me again and again why I love this world. Thank you

[@francoistrempe]

Hi, I love your video, here is a suggestion : When you quote, can you put the text on the screen so we can read along, this would also prevent you from having to say end quote

[@MenoftheWest]

That is a really good idea, I will try that! Thank you!

[@Vendavalez]

Some times I listen to the videos while doing something and have found that I have come to really appreciate the use of "end quote" and to wish more people were to use it. I am totally for the adding of text on-screen as you read it, but I would also appreciate if you continued to say "end quote" when you finish reading one. Also, and this is purely aesthetic, I think it adds to the personality and feel of your videos.

[@stalhandske9649]

@francoistrempe Gongratulations, Sir, for a suggestion that went on to greatly improve the quality of this channel's videos. Not a criticism of previous level (high), but the adopion of text excerpts has made it easier to read quotes along and track them afterwards.

[@LMAccount1]

I think a session on Bullroarer would be neat

[@alyceGoRound]

perfect i was just thinking about this question yesterday! thanks for elaborating!

[@victorvondoom7155]

I really enjoy listening to you speak and your elaborate explanations on the Lotr legenderium. It is both therapeutic and informative thank so much.

[@brovold72]

I’ve always loved the depiction of magic in LotR whereby, from the perspective of a mortal (usually a hobbit or occasionally Gimley) a character will seem to grow in stature, or a white light will seem to be about them, or on their brow or stabbing from their hand. This sort of thing is noticeably never declared as objectively happening by the book’s narrator, but from a character’s POV. Magic is therefore kept pretty ambiguous, as mostly its *effects* are described.

[@edgardtheknowledgekeeper3119]

Great video man. A couple of suggestions for a video. The first I'm not sure of but I'll throw it out there. I think a video on Celebrimbor would be interesting. And I'd be interested in a video on the different famous swords in middle earth.

[@vinalhaven]

Awesome man, my favorite channel! Tolkien nerds like me and you, this is gravy! #MenoftheWest

[@hecate235]

I have always assumed that the "magic" of the elves, especially of the Noldor, came from living a really, really long time, and so understanding more and more of how the world works. And two, because they lived for countless millennia with the Valar -- the beings that made the world. Their "powers" are no more than advanced knowledge, and a technology so advanced it is indistinguishable from "magic." (With thanks to Arthur C. Clark)

[@SR567895]

You are exactly right. To quote Tolkien himself: "I have not used ‘magic’ consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their ‘magic’ is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous reforming of Creation."

[@juliada8121]

Thanks for another great video, I completely agree. It has always bothered me about Harry Potter for example that magic is used so freely that the consequences can't really be contained anymore, they should reach much further than they do in the books. Tolkien manages to keep magic contained within the logic if his work and doesn't use ist cheaply:)

[@jezlawrence720]

Ok I keep hearing that elrond (or arwen in the movies) creates the flood that sweeps away the wraiths. But I'm sure I've read in the silmarillion that ulwe basically curses all creatures of melkor to never be able to enter his waters. Thats why the wraiths pull up at the Brandywine river. All elrond did was alert ulwe (basically by prayer) to the fact the wraiths are there, and ulwe does the rest. Is that not right?

[@MenoftheWest]

jez lawrence It could be true. Elrond says he creates it, and Gandalf adds the horse look to it, but it's possible that he some how communicated with Ulmo the vala of water to create it. That's a very interesting thought, thanks for mentioning it!

[@rocketraccoon1976]

+ jez lawrence That's an interesting concept. By the same token, perhaps that's why the Nazgul fear whenever anyone says the name, Elbereth Gilthoniel (aka Varda - Queen of the Valar). Maybe whenever her name is spoken, it sorta acts like a prayer that could attract her attention, which the Nazgul seek to avoid at all costs, because as a Vala, especially the one whose portfolio is light (the diametrical opposite of what a Nazgul is), she probably despises their existence & could squash them all like bugs if she ever lost her temper, and not even Sauron would be able to stop her.

[@sophiejones3554]

*Ulmo, yes possibly.

[@jezlawrence720]

@@sophiejones3554 yes ulmo. That's who I meant, thanks!

[@ultraelite8281]

Excellent video, but could you try to find some information on the pirates of Umbar? I just don't know a thing about them other than they were mecenaries for sauron. Do they have any role at all in Tolkien's legendarium? I just think it would make a good video as I have not heard much about them. Thanks for the great video!

[@poshboy4749]

Did they ever! I won't go into it in case we get a video, but basically they were Aragorn's ancestors that went bad and tired to kill God.

[@ducovanderwoude6971]

Poshboy the corsairs in the late third age don't have any Numenorian blood, they are just Haradrim

[@poshboy4749]

1. That's boring. 2. They are still culturally related, even if the blood has been bred out. 3. The defeat of the corsairs by Aragorn and the Army of the Dead always seemed to me be symbolic of the final revenge of Good Numenorians over the The Black Numenorians.

[@SantomPh]

Umbar was always a thorn in Gondor's side but the Corsairs emerged when the instigator of Gondor's civil war (the Kin-strife), a prince called Castamir lost the war and died. His sons and followers , who were mostly the navy fled to Umbar and became local leaders of the Haradrim and other men there. Because of their hatred of Gondor they continued raiding the coasts all over the place, using the great ships Gondor once used to subdue them to enslave people they capture. A certain Thorongil (Aragorn) on his tour of duty sailed south and personally killed the lord of the Corsairs in a punitive expedition that kept the seas safe for a long time. The Corsairs ramp up their attack in the Pelennor Fields battle but are ambushed by the Dead Men of Dunharrow and literally fall off their ships or drop dead. Aragorn then orders the southern fief armies to board the vessels. Harad later sends an ambassador to Aragorn's court but we don't know who they represent.

[@SantomPh]

URLTRA Elite also in some irony, when Ar-Pharazon of Numenor landed in Middle Earth to fight Sauron he landed in Umbar. A monument was erected there in his honor by none other than the Faithful, the people he was persecuting in Numenor

[@geminiguy9546]

Can you make a video explaining what/who the Valar are in Tolkien's universe? I'm sure myself and a lot of other LOTR fans didn't know they even existed. Your channel is awesome, keep up the good work! :D

[@tulkasastaldo4612]

I'm a Valar, Morgoth fears me for I need no weapon and I laugh while I fight !! Ha ha !

[@zacharycollins9485]

Alright so there's Eru Illuvatar he's God and he created the Ainur who are basically angels and they sang creation into existence and when some of the Ainur came down into Arda which is earth they were then known as Valar (the bigger ones) and the Maiar (the smaller ones) Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron are Maiar they're angels that's why they're so badass anyway Valar are like super-strong angels who live in Valinor with a bunch of Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri elves and Valinor is (or was back in the day) like heaven on earth across the western sea and that's where everybody was going at the end of Return of the King those lucky sons-of-bitches haha peace out Bilbros

[@onlinemole6572]

+Mike Seguin I recommend you read the Silmarillion, its a bit dull at first but well worth the effort once it gets to the Noldor.

[@tulkasastaldo4612]

DULL !! What ! it starts with the creation of the universe!! how is that dull ! ( sorry its my favorite book)

[@77777Spooky]

Thanks! Keep em coming!

[@jimmyboy131]

This was another excellent break-down of what's going on in Professor Tolkien's world. And there are so many excellent posts and insights here in this thread, but I will add my two coppers anyway. I think it's understood that "magic" here (versus sorcery) is the use of someone's own inherent power and abilities. Artifacts like rings and staves serve to magnify or focus that inherent power. I believe it's actually called "virtue", not magic. Whereas "sorcery" is taking power or abilities that are not inherently one's own. That's exactly what the Witch-king and other sorcerers did, and that's what Sauron was attempting to do when he gave out the Rings of Power. He was trying to use or even gain the wearers' virtue or power. One example that illustrates this very well is Smeagol/Gollum. He had acquired the most powerful artifact in Middle-earth, and had it for five hundred years. But even with all that power at his disposal, he couldn't do anything with it except turn invisible while wearing it. And he had to actually wear it to even do that. A by-product was that it extended his life span. The same was true for Bilbo, and he had the Ring for sixty years. None of them had much inherent power, so the powerful artifact was almost useless to them. On the other hand, as Gandalf and Galadriel said, in their hands it would be too powerful to imagine. That's because they themselves had a lot of inherent power, or "virtue". For the hobbits, the virtue they had was in living a life of integrity, close to nature, not in manipulating the world. Someone mentioned the knife that Merry got from Bombadil out of the barrow downs. That knife, and many of the ones made during its time, had in it a power to do serious mortal damage to the Witch-king, or any wraith of their type. That's because the Numenorean humans who crafted them had a level of their own inherent "virtue" or magic, which they imbued into the blades specifically to deal damage like that. Tolkien specifically said that it was the craftsman's own virtue that was used to cause that effect. Just like it was Sauron's own virtue (or magic) that was imbued into the Rings of Power, and especially into the One Ring. And probably the staves of the Five Wizards were probably crafted by them, and were imbued with a lot of their own virtue. Speaking of Numenorean, or Westernesse, virtue, as a player of LOTRO, you're aware that certain items in the game are considered to have been crafted by them, and do greater damage when used against undead or wraiths. I thought that was a great touch added to the game by its designers, who were thoroughly versed in the Legendarium.

[@partydean17]

I always loved tolkeins use and lack there of magic. It really does wonders for the story and only adds a sense of fantasy when it is used. I know I've read some fantasy stories that go a little overboard with the magic use (sword of truth) where it becomes dragon ball z battles. And it does take a way from the sacrifices of the real warriors

[@mariannedole5165]

Greetings Yoystan. I have continued listening to your wonderful videos. Regarding this one: See Tolkien's Letter 131 to Milton Waldman, where he discusses the concepts of magic and art. Blessings.

[@lars526]

Authors like J.K. Rowling, I think, abuse the concept of magic to the point where there is no rhyme or reason to how it can be used, whereas Tolkien's inclusion of magic is subtle, practical, and is closer to the classical interpretation of magic/witchcraft/spellbinding/etc. One can think of magic as a sort of technology...a lighter is a perfect example. With it, a person can create and sustain fire in the palm of his hand by simply using the forces of nature. Of course, the average person cannot create a light, but it is basically a magical invention. Thus, the main distinction between magic and technology is that today "magic" is patented and sold to the masses for their convenience. Previously, only certain people were capable of creating and using magic. Electricity is another great example...it has always existed, and I believe certain people (Druids, alchemists, wizards, witches, sorcerers, whatever you might call them) were capable of harnessing that energy, in different ways, and using it to produce 'magic'. The average person today might _use_ electricity, because it's been made easy to access, but they cannot _create_ or utilize it on their own. Hopefully this is making sense to somebody...lol.

[@zacharycollins9485]

Daedalus Occidentalis Yeah dude totally it's the classic Arthur C. Clarke quote -Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic- it's steampunk fools! Haha peace out

[@freddydyar113]

Harry Potter may have a lot of mistakes, but I still enjoyed it when I was younger.

[@ANT96-x8d]

Harry Potter:A fantasy for Agnostic Liberal Democrats. The Lord Of The Rings:A fantasy for Christian Conservative Republicans. Winner:The Lord Of The Rings.

[@NetoD20]

@@ANT96-x8d yeah, right media3.giphy.com/media/NVSbTwAbqFN16/source.gif

[@sirandrelefaedelinoge]

@ LARS - It made perfect sense to me... Blessèd be Andy 🌛/|\🌜

[@josephbruglio2023]

I must tell you, I've been listening to your very informative videos and am enjoying them so much(especially this one)! Thank you for taking the time to put these together. Have you done a video theory yet on Saruman taking the one ring for his own and what would have happened?

[@MenoftheWest]

Joseph Bruglio Thank you very much! I haven't been able to make that video yet, but I want to make it in the next couple of months and do it as much justice as I am able. Thank you for your patience, I really do appreciate it.

[@reallivebluescat]

im thinking that Tolkien, using lore from Celtic and Nordic tales etc, uses magic more as an enhanced side of nature, in that its a part of an tempered Nature/natural world, with the istari, the elves and Tom Bombadill, Sauron being more physical manifestations of that natural world - and not just separate races/beings imbued with superpowers. A little bit like you can see in Princess Mononoke etc. I think that comes more from the pagan tradition of human history, where there "were" spirits in the rocks and streams, or how they could see Gods at work in a thunderstorm etc. Only there is no real separation between the forces of nature and these gods/spirits there - in that they are one and the same. Like, "is it a spirit, or is it just a tree?" "Yes!" I dont think that the ancient greeks, if they scaled mount Olympus, really thought they would meet the Gods there. That can also explain why the magical forces are just a backdrop, or an aid, to the struggling men and hobbits - and not the driving-force of the stories. In that ultimately, people have to shape their own destiny with and against/despite the forces of nature, and overcoming the forces of greed/hate etc. Its a little bit like One reading of Christianity (Zizek/Hegel), that what dies on the cross is the God above - what is left is only the community of men (the holy sprit, here as an atheist interpretation). The wizards and the elves leaves the world to men, meaning its the end of innocence were they have to "become adult" and take charge of their own lives, without the hope of magical/spiritual intervention. The ultimate freedom, its up to US now!

[@Cloudstrife112233]

Excellent video! Thanks for posting.

[@an3582]

Honestly that was one of the main reasons I didnt get into LOTR as much (I liked the original trilogy of movies). I like my classic magic more than ambiguous magic. Here are these fantastic beings that achieve great feats, but Gandalf, a great "wizard" just makes his voice louder and flashes a giant flashlight as he rides into battle. And the pushing match was... Underwhelming to me. But im not one to get into books and lore as much. I enjoy these videos because of how well you express yourself, and the obvious love you have for these books permeates your work, even though Im not into the lore of Tolkiens work. In any case, youre great man, thanks for these. As always, my DnD ideas just flow when I hear you explain these things, and the artwork certainly helps. Its weird to explain. Im not into this, but I am into these vids.

[@johnr7279]

Great video! Galadriel's words to Frodo are very interesting and, more importantly, they really stand out. The fact that she seems confused is very intriguing and indicate that she does not seem to get how Hobbits (and most humans as well I think) perceive the supernatural or things outside of what is tangible. It's a way of saying "I don't know what you mean" and really saying "you don't understand what this is." It means that Tolkien need not really explain it but simply state the Hobbits' misunderstanding of it; pure subtle genius. Tolkein was a master of ambiguity like this and it's one of the things that make his works so re-readable. While this video is about magic, I am going to take the opportunity to prattle on about Elves a bit. Elves are the original people, although not as old as Dwarves but for completely unrelated reasons. They are clearly the divine of all peoples and the people closest in nature to the dieties of Tolkien's world. Also, the key leaders of the Elves are mostly leftovers from the ancient world. Most notably, we're talking about Galadriel, Elrond (half-Elven but chose the path of the Elves unlike his brother Elros), and even Cirdan. The latter of these is interesting. We never really meet him directly but it's Cirdan who mans the port that serves as the gateway to the West as well as the guy who bequeathed the Ring of Fire to Gandalf. Think about it and imagine meeting Solomon or some other character of our ancient world. To these ancient Elves--and we're really never too sure how many there really are--magic seems to be a part of their nature. Again, they're much closer to the angelic peoples of the West so this explanation makes sense to me. Because it's a part of their nature, why really explain it? Even the ways that items act is intriguing. The power of the Elven cloaks, the sustaining nature of lembas, and the strange rope that seemed to known when to free itself of a Samwise Gamgee knot. As the reader, you're never really sure where the magic really is. More ambiguity and I've re-read passages many times looking for more hints. It is also of interest to note that there are only two races on the White Council, those being old world Elven leaders and the Wizards. They all understood magic and from a fairly equal perspective I think. Wizards, of course, are also of the West and the senior Elven leaders clearly perceive this. How did Cirdan know to give Galdalf one of the Three Rings? How did Galadriel know that Gandalf was the real leader among them? The rather country bumpkin Elves of Mirkwood are clear breakaways. They don't seek to leave Middle Earth and don't seem to be tied to the West like the Galadrim or the folks who reside at Rivendell. At some point, it's clear that they'll eventually decline just as the Hobbits and Dwarves will. They're just more self interested rather than really caring about the world as a whole.

[@Bsahokie07]

John R You meant Cirdan the Shipwright, not Celebrimbor. Cirdan gave a ring to Gandalf.

[@johnr7279]

Yes and thank you! Edits made and thanks again.

[@superraegun2649]

Tolkien uses magic very well, something in my opinion very few fantasy writers are capable of. Too often it seems to be a way of the writer being able to do what they want with the plot, but in Tolkien's world it has apparent limitations. The frame narrative is a very clever way of giving magic the apparent ambiguity needed to be mystified while also giving the impression that there are rules which govern how magic can work, something many fantasy stories lack which is in my opinion a major flaw as it means the characters should never be in any real danger, and if both sides have magic it could almost become like when kids play games and simply invent powers with no rules.

[@JoeHooker11]

When talking to the Hobbits, Aragorn states that Gandalf was only allowed to show the most basic of his powers as a general rule. In most cases he does; because it seems in the books that the further people of magic (Wizards and Elves) delve into magic, the more corrupted they become by the realization of how much power they can truly wield. The few times Gandalf unleashes the most magic, (fending off the Nazgul on Weathertop, killing the Balrog) he always held back. The beings that use the most magic are almost to a man villains. Saruman, the Nazgul, Sauron, Morgoth. All these beings use magic freely and without holding back. There also appears to be a rather interesting conundrum in the books as well where these characters actually get weaker the more magic they try to use. Saruman gets weak enough that Gandalf replaces him in both status and power. Morgoth (who uses perhaps the most magic of any character excepting Iluvatar) becomes so weak that Ungoliant, who eons beforehand could never have taken him on, successfully attacks him and he is forced to be rescued by Balrogs because he can't even get out of Ungoliants webs.

[@LPgamedev]

Fantastic in depth analysis. I absolutely love the limited use of magic in Tolkien's work. I have a love/hate relationship with the ambiguity of it. I love the ambiguity in regards to the narrative, as it keeps all things arcane mysterious and powerful. I also agree with what you mentioned about magic being an easy way to succeed at conflict resolution. I do, however, long for an explanation for all the magic in middle earth, as I really really just want to understand the rules that magic play by in Tolkien's world. Like, why can Gandalf do some crazy awesome things sometimes but not always? Does the use of magic drain his spirit? Who knows. I love and hate that no one can give a definitive answer and that we'll never truly know

[@hugonilsson6067]

One of the reasons i like the inheritance books is because the magic is very well explained

[@KleisKlijs]

You should make a podcast! This format is great for it and i would love to listen to it.

[@Marcv1285]

I would like to see a video explaining the dead in the mountain that help Aragorn win the last battle. I find them mysterious and would like to know more about their origin.

[@tomklock568]

Well done. I think you hit it pretty well on the head.

[@qurantino3624]

Hey! I have a great idea! It may take some time, but it would be awesome if you’d make a series of videos where you talk about every chapter in the Silmarillion! This is for those who thinks it’s hard to get through the book. It would be very cool! You have a very relaxing voice Btw! ;P

[@RenBR]

Amazing video, as always! Keep up the good work!!!

[@LuxBellator92]

Fascinating video as always, thanks!

[@johnemery1596]

Can we get a video on the fortifications of Middle Earth?

[@kendel1495]

The subtlety of Tolkien’s use of magic has always been its most mystical aspect. It never is at the forefront of any story but is used as a sort of last stand in any story its in to demonstrate a forgotten strength or last stand against whatever evil might be at hand

[@jfbrko290]

Is there any chance you could make a video or series of videos about all the monsters type creatures of Tolkien's legendarium? Giant spiders, werewolves, vampires, etc? :D

[@juppschmitz1974]

Once again a great video. Keep it up!

[@januzzell8631]

It would be fascinating to show the differences and similarities between the geography of the Silmarillion and the Hobbit/Lord of the Rings books - really enjoying your videos - thank you so much :)

[@donaldbadowski290]

Your intro explained it all. Galadriel s confused by what the Hobbits, and probably Men mean by magic. She was at least 8,000 years old, probably older. She'd known Men for at least 6,000 of those years. Yet she did not understand. That doesn't make sense unless you look at it from the perspective of an Elf, who were born in the World with an intimate understanding of it. They want to "talk" to the animals, trees and even the stones to see what they have to say. Galadriel, and I'm sure the other Elves looked at their "magic" as just an advanced skill set. One may be better at it than another, but none of it is strange to them. Like us when you eat something prepared by a master chief. You may marvel at his skill, but you don't find it beyond comprehension.

[@NebulousSquirrel]

In the Hobbit Gandalf uses magic much more regularly then we see later and in ways much more typical to the fantasy genre, setting fire to pinecones and even striking down goblins with flashes of lightning.

[@animeguitarguy]

Wonderful as always. Thanks for the videos!

[@crystalfmaibach8582]

What I miss is the mortal magicians, who are mentiones several times, f.e. when Frodo and his friends are in the Prancing Pony in Bree; it seems there are wandering Magicians around apart from Gandalf. Also the people who spoke the spells, that Gandalf knew in front of the Moria Gate... Tolkien also difference between Lore and Magic, which both can produce magical effects...

[@RemusKingOfRome]

.. and if magic doesn't work .. you can always call the Eagles .. :D

[@ayshalotr8518]

Can't have enough of your video ❤️❤️

[@Gigas0101]

To me, the world of Lord of the Rings is filled with magic, and much of the nature of beings is shown through this. The way that evil things shrink away from shows of valor and righteousness, or how the mere presence of wizards or elves like Elrond and Galadriel could sway the moods and minds of those around them, that's the magic of this world made manifest. The beginning of the age of men and the passing of the elves into the West was the magic leaving this world, as the world seems to wind down with each age. Thank you for this video, you've given me not only a stronger appreciation for Tolkien's work, but for all fantasy writing.

[@snowpuppy77]

So enjoyable. Thank you again. I have started watching every one of them!

[@persebra]

such beautiful artwork! 4:08 I'm only vaguely familiar with the valar. Didn't know they had people like appearances. I just thought they looked like spirits.

[@NPHfann]

I always saw it as the elves and wizards understood the song of arda more and therefore could influence it. Melkor knew his power to influence the song and therefore chose to see how much power he really had by corrupting the very thing that was created.

[@danielkelly7452]

Could u make a vid about oliphants or mumikil

[@paulrevererider7392]

Tolkien had an understanding of what Christians call DISPENSATIONS (or Eras) . It it a very interesting topic . There were the The Law, The Prophets, The Judges , The Diaspora, The Redemption , the Dark Age , The Rebirth , The Age of Grace and the Kingdom Age . There is much debate but many believe we have stumbled into the Kingdom Age. Expect more miracles and what you call Magic

[@LeoxandarMagnus]

You've got yourself a new subscriber.

[@ThomasK96]

I agree with Tolkien on magic

[@celestejohnston6613]

I like the way Magic is used in Tolkien's world. it is intrinsic to certain people as part of their spirit, their "magic" is part of themselves not learned, it is who they are. I think you are right about Tolkien's conservative use of magic. It is through who they are the character they show and what decisions they make that brings about the events, not spells cast.

[@abrahemsamander3967]

I haven’t read lord of the rings yet(loved the hobbit.) but this is seriously interesting. I wish more fantasy books used something similar. Maybe I could try if I ever write a book.

[@todorminchev2123]

i love the artwork you choose !

[@alexnedved6830]

I'd love a video with more about the scrapped sequel to Lord of the Rings. Also something on Dwarves

[@GGUPP5]

Great video

[@jasonmiller7628]

I like the song at the end of this video it is sad and sweet and it reminds me of some of the good times when I was a kid if that means anything good work keep it up

[@GarretGarlinger]

Tolkien did a great job! Your video was great. thanks!

[@parthambre9494]

Make video on the stones which are in the staff of the Wizard s

[@urulai]

Treat magic like tech, some people don't like ultra-tech sci-fi because you can basically do almost anything. Same applies to magic. Never use it in a narrative to do whatever you want. Limits and boundaries are important.

[@saschaeisenhut757]

I think one more kind of magic used, espeacially within the Silmarillion, is the magic of song. There are not only the songs of the Ainur, creating the world. I just can't recall exactly who was fighting whom, but I think it was Sauron fighting one of the elves, and they were singing to defeat the enemy. So, there were songs of power used in combat, too. And it seems to me that a lot of the not-so-subtle-magic in tolkiens world, espeacially in the elder days, was accomplished by music and song, so they seem to be inherently linked.

[@blairhitch4530]

I'm actually about to start a Middle Earth RPG campaign and all of your videos are SUPER helpful for some quick research! Thanks and keep up the great work!

[@morrgash]

Great video, loved it!

[@tfallspark5104]

Love your content. Love this world. Tolkien created something beautyfull, deep, and timeless.