The Vintage car debate

[@muzzoommodels721]

Great video guys and well done for not shying away from what is a sensitive subject for many! I've had these sorts of conversations with so many people over the past 12 years or so since the vintage RC scene has blossomed, so I'll surmise my thoughts here - longwinded as they are. I make no apologies, just TL;DR if it's boring for you. The subject has always been there, but the goalposts are continually moving - that's just growth, it's nothing to complain about. That said, it seems to be more of a UK thing - in the US, vintage racing is almost a silhouette category whereas in Australia it's like time stood still. Both are great approaches and the events are fantastic. In the UK however, we are somewhere in the middle and as is in our countries nature, we're trying to be inoffensive, please everyone, and surreptitiously make the rules to define what vintage racing is. What I observe in the various discussions about which approach is best, is a tendency to exclude what doesn't fit the argument. So where we are at the moment is that you can run all the mods you want (within the current rules and capabilities of scrutineering team), but we'll still accuse you of not running a vintage car - or, you can run a truly vintage car if you want, but you won't be able to be competitive and win anything. It's OK though, like school sports day it's just the taking part that counts, except we're most likely the very same parents who complain that a little competition is healthy… Where I would like to see our hobby progress, is with a bit more openness and consideration that the world of vintage RC extends well beyond some huge race events in the UK. Look at the multitude of Facebook pages and KZbin channels and you will see vintage RC everywhere, from all walks of life, all capabilities and all levels of interest. You'll also find a common backstory amongst a huge number of the hobbies' participants - health and wellbeing. The Iconic events here in the UK raise a huge amount of money for charity (Over £100k since they began over 10 years ago), I myself like so many others have found the hobby in an effort to manage mental health challenges, many of our compatriots come to events to meet people, socialise, make new friends or to create memories with children who otherwise stare at screens all day and don't bond with us. It's huge, it's complex and it extends well beyond race meetings - we need to look to include, not exclude. So, what is vintage RC? Well, to start with it's a love of old RC cars - for all of us, it's the cars we owned, played with or aspired to in years gone by. Maybe memories of a shared bond with our Dads, or playing in the street with our mates. Perhaps we learnt to solder, how to fashion a rusty nail into a hinge pin or how to beg, steal and borrow to fund the next upgrade. For many of us, it's also memories of going to local village halls, schools or random fields behind pubs to take part in small, low-key race meetings. Making do with whatever we had, the events weren't particularly competitive, perhaps manual lap counting and all the arguments/banter that comes with it. There wasn't much in the way of rules (except for whichever crystal colour you were using - yes, we all turned up with just yellow!), scrutineering was just a big long meaningless word that you'd occasionally hear Murray Walker mention on BBC Grand Prix, and whatever tyres came in the kit were absolutely fine for grass, dirt, concrete or cork floors. In fact, the less grip the better - more fun and more chance of beating the cars which otherwise are just faster. Sometimes, we'd cobble together a home-made special for a school project or something to do over the school holidays - this may even have led to a love of engineering and steered us into our careers today. For relatively few of us, it's memories of taking part in huge organised race meetings. For some more of us, it's also about reading magazine articles about these events. Here we had the latest mods, upgrades or kit releases, industry personalities and it all fostered the aspiration to be the best - the competitive spirit. However, it's also sitting alone in shed struggling to put the day's stresses behind you - fiddling about with a box of bits just to take your mind off things. Standing back when finished to look at something you've accomplished - finally, something brings some momentary inner satisfaction and perhaps ignites some warming memories of those scenarios above. What’s in the box of bits - is it a 30 year old RC kit, rare NIP unobtanium hop-ups made by a man in a shed decades ago, or a complete set of carbide mill tools for the dream-making machine in front of you? It doesn't matter, that box of bits is just the same to all of us. All of these people in these scenarios belong to this hobby. We all want to enjoy it and if we're inclined to want to take part in events with others, then we should feel welcome and included. So what's the solution? I'm sure there are many ways to deal with the issues people raise, but here is my two penneth: • Nobody's idea of what vintage RC is, is wrong. • Is a vintage RC event a 'Race Meeting' or just a 'Meeting'? • Whether we're competitive or not, we all want to feel like we have done our best - it's the school sports day scenario, don't nullify the competition for all, but give 15 stone Billy a chance to do shot put instead of forcing him into the 100m. • If modern tech is coming into vintage racing through re-re's, then allow a level playing field. Either a re-re doesn't meet the rules, or the rules need to change to include it - and allow others to match. • If modern tech is coming into vintage racing, then lets just acknowledge we're not racing vintage cars - we're doing 'vintage style racing'. We all know the difference between an authentic vintage car and a vintage style racing car, so lets stop pretending they're the same thing - they are different and both equally valid. • Embrace the competition - fastest car and driver combo wins. No if, buts and maybes. • Reward the efforts of those steadfast die-hard vintage fanatics - perhaps we look at concours competitions, which in full-scale circles, rewards the most detailed authenticity - not just the best looking. Keep the rule that the car must be raced in at least one heat, but reward our inner nerds for those efforts. Maybe even make an unwritten encouragement for everyone who has such a car at the event to at least run it in round 1 so the photos from that round reflect the authenticity better? • Race organisers to acknowledge we're not all top-level competitive drivers, no matter how big the event is. We may not all be 100% certain of what we're doing at the beginning of the day and full sighting lap before the final is more critical for an average Joe than a pro. We all want to do our best, not end up in a lottery. So there we go. Thank you to PopalongRC for providing the soap box. I shall hand the mic to someone else and start dodging the rotten tomatoes….

[@PopalongRC]

That was exactly what this was all about. A discussion about vintage rc … something we are all passionate about and express in different ways

[@JoseRamos-su3ep]

Agreed! Standard out of the box stock! Great idea….no gyros! Standard out of the box!

[@germancarfan]

Great points guys, I agree we need a motor limit more in keeping with the speed the vintage cars used to have.

[@johnrainbird1155]

You two are so f………….. amazing 🎉

[@rcXmartin]

I feel your frustration Mark about Mini racing, I used to love running my 210mm M Chassis, but getting beaten all the time by the longer chassis cars wears you down after a while. If you can't beat em, join em!! Keep up the good work guys!

[@Glocktologist]

We have a Mini Classic class that only allows Tamiya and only models up to the M-05 and M-06. There’s a list of approved bodies and upgrades. Makes things simple and level: you can only win a race by driving better than the others.

[@hubdeep9452]

In my local club we have a fun/Tamiya class where you are only allowed to run a 540 silver can. It keeps the playing field more level and accessible for new racers. If you want to go faster you go into a different class.

[@keithangstadt4950]

Our local track does this in their vintage class. They also have a rule restricting ESCs to under $80. The owner of the track wants racing to go back to being fun and winning not being restricted to those who have the most money to throw at their cars.

[@brsrc759]

Yep that's how we do it here on Maui too. We have a Tamiya tt02 spec class that we do allow minimal upgrades( front CVDs, bearings, any rubber wheels/tires of the same diameter as stock, and any body). Other than that the cars are completely box stock. It's a lot of fun and you never break anything expensive. And then of course we have a modified touring car class. It's really so simple I don't understand why these guys can't get it together over there. 😅

[@PopalongRC]

Cool idea

[@PopalongRC]

Nice

[@TastierBackInThe80s]

We are experiencing the 2nd Golden Age of vintage racing. It's not 100% pure, but if you look back, a lot of factory cars that turned up to the Worlds weren't either. JJ's Worlds Ultima didn't share a hell of a lot with the box stock 87 Ultima. At least now, in spite of a few bits of carbon, LIPOs, brushless motors and decent radios, we are running the ACTUAL car from back in the day, or a re-re that's pretty bloody close to the original model. I get the purity angle 100%. But I'm grateful we got a 2nd chance at racing these models, regardless of how much we are tweaking the hell out of them. And thank you to Popalong for highlighting the importance of grassroots clubs, that organize vintage meets along with other classes of racing. Soak it all up lads, this is the time of our RC lives.

[@Glocktologist]

Modern electronics are so reliable and easy to maintain that I wouldn’t want to go back. Just cap the performance by other means: motor turn count, final drive ratio, top rpm setting in the TX… whatever is easiest to set up and verify. We have the technology to make the speeds reasonable for the vehicles and level for all.

[@TimeAttackRC]

Here in Australia we run the Johnson silver can for most vintage racing. Keeps it cheap and easy to get and performance comes from tuning and driver skill. No big bores allowed and we may got to a torque or sports tuned motor or if brushless 21.5 for 2wd and 17.5 for 4wd.

[@PopalongRC]

That sounds good

[@Backupplan94]

We currently have a divide at my LHS that there are too many classes. It made it to where there was only 3 people or so participating in a race because of all the options you had. But I agree with you guys, people just love to tinker with their RCs and they become their babies. From what I noticed at my shop is that the participation for box stock is generally low. But the class right above it is where the majority is at.

[@andyp6699]

Totally agree with what you are saying. People get put off by others that always want to win. For me it is about going out to rc tracks and enjoing the hobby. Also helping new people into the rc world we are already in. We need the younger generation to keep the rc hobby going for a lot of reasions. RANT OVER. Keep up the great work guys.

[@lordchris]

Maybe a Popalong Historic event 👍 no lipos, no brushless

[@PopalongRC]

Oooooow Nice idea

[@luissola6633]

Have a look at what we are doing in Australia at the Vintage Bash this year , we think it's great ! ( and the entries say so to , almost 360 entries for an event with no trophies ! ) Pre 1988 , silver can 540 and 2.0" tyre , post 1988 , any 17.5 brushless or "open" brushed for 4wd , 21.5/stock brushed for 2wd - and an emphasis on making the cars look like they did back when they were the current race models

[@paullyjay]

TEAM CARL - Motor limit 21T brushless and only hop-ups that would have been available back in the day... like bearings, carbon or grp shock towers and original CVA oil filled shock (which can be modified, but must be original casings) perhaps grp chassis and possibly some alloy parts...

[@PopalongRC]

Good choice

[@nicholasgoodall82]

My 94-98 class winning B3 was box stock as far as the Factory team cars came out and how we ran them at that time, other than lipo and brushless 10.5 motors but I also ran a big heavy lipo to try and mimic how the car handled and felt with a heavier battery as per the NiMh we ran in them in the late 90's. I had the same small bore shocks, springs, diff, plastic parts otherwise and it performed great. Remember in that era we were comfortably running 10/11 turn motors at big events and the cars weren't slow so I guess really some of the more older classes see a bigger difference with the modern power (early 80's) compared to the later stuff. The fact nobody runs a modern box stock class tells me it just isn't something that's needed or particularly wanted but I'm sure if they did those people could easily create an event or one off meeting / series that runs in conjunction with the big existing vintage races because with the amount of interest the revival gets it clearly doesn't need a massive overhaul to me.

[@BC-rc]

For me vintage is mid to late 80's. Like my losi jrx pro. All brushed and drove like a dream. Wish I still had it.

[@hairypaulmm7wab195]

Back in the 80s the vintage racing we did had 3 basic classes, true vintage cars all ran standard 540S brushed motors and standard PCB wiper / resistor speed controllers and standard battery pack NO electronic speed controllers. The Modified class could use a modern ESC and the Pro class could use whatever motor and control system you could fit inside the body. The great thing was people on a budget could enjoy racing in the standard class where the cars were pretty closely matched and it was down to the drivers skill tuning the suspension and actually driving the car. The modified class did have limitations on the motor size and battery, most were racing with 7 cell 'hump packs' instead of the standard 6 cell. The Pro class races were usually won by the same few people that had poured money into their cars. Money was tight back then and I would rather have two standard cars than one Pro car for the same money so I enjoyed racing in the close matched standard and modified classes and was only a spectator of the Pro class racing. If a true vintage race was conducted with only standard brushed motors and speed controllers it would be a more level filed and the skill of the drivers would make the difference rather than the current situation where it is mostly a contest of who can afford to throw the most cash at their car. Raced mardave ministox for years where the standard class cars were only allowed to use the standard out-the-box parts, the racing was close matched and intense but so much fun! I did build one Pro class mini sprint car that was powered by two Jet-X solid fuel rocket motors just for fun and often managed to bag top speeds and 1/8 mile times far beyond what the electric cars could do at the time. I always declined the points to keep it fair for those who were doing it properly. For proper competitive racing I stuck with the standard class for many years as it was down to driver skill and was far more enjoyable. I do not race offroad buggies these days and only competitively do rock crawling and small scale sprint speed runs with modified brushless 12th scale DAF race truck and custom built 12th scale 1978 MK2 LWB transit van. All my other RC vehicles ranging from :24th scale to 8th scale are driven purely for fun. Whatever You do Keep It FUN!

[@bobbylefebvre6298]

Nice track

[@robbiebobster9672]

The vintage bash in Australia has the rule set and class absolutely dialed.

[@bobbylefebvre6298]

Cool video I have the green grass hopper stock

[@keithangstadt4950]

Simple : Have a Vintage Class and a Vintage Modified class.

[@PopalongRC]

Sounds good

[@guymarotta2596]

I also agree wholeheartedly.

[@SubboyGTR]

You are one of the few countries that allow Vintage classes with Big Bore Shocks and big motors. In NZ we run a single type of Silver Can 540 brushed motors and then in Aussie it’s 21.5t in 2wd and 17.5t in 4wd (1985-1987 is Silver Can)……and all Small Bore Shocks.

[@PopalongRC]

That is very interesting

[@leebentley6257]

Vintage should run 27t brushed

[@benspeedschannel888]

Absolutely ❤

[@brsrc759]

You guys are hilarious! Love the bickering 😂. The simple solution is to have a spec class, and a modified class. Problem solved.

[@PopalongRC]

Cheers buddy

[@kanenstuff]

Your commemt of driving the summer track for 2 weeks cracked me up ahhh the beautiful long lasting English summer 😂

[@bobbylefebvre6298]

I love the vintage rc

[@scotthillier2154]

Morning Mark and Carl 👍

[@tomn900]

I'm building a tamiya dark impact which I know wouldn't be a great racer. But I would love to race it as it is. For fun! Keep up the great video's guys 😊

[@PopalongRC]

Will do our best

[@oopster74]

We always upgraded these cars even when they were new. Control motors then? I like that in Iconic, and it keeps it affordable.

[@PopalongRC]

Think you are right

[@JohnAdam-t7p]

Wow you guys don’t mess about. Love the vids guys. Hope to come racing soon. 😢 been up all night tinkering with a few cars. I’m now just going bed and you guys are up bright and early leaving us nice juicy new videos. You guys really make me laugh. No acting. No messing. Just 2 normal geeza’s. So relatable, very interesting and yet so inviting for noobies alike. Cheers guys. Really appreciate all your knowledge and efforts 👌🏼

[@PopalongRC]

Cheers buddy

[@IconicRC]

Interesting one, chaps 👍

[@Ultegra10SPD]

Still not as bad as stock class racing. Very messed up in the states now. In fact speeding up a vintage car a lil bit helps an adult feel like when we were kids. A stock tamiya looked like a rocket to an 8yo way back when right? What happened? -U10

[@chunkbot]

There's not a local race club here but vintage stock and vintage modified could be two race classes. Vintage stock is brushed only and could allow for mods due to unavailability of parts, but that's a verifiable fact, whereas vintage modified is "The Tamiya Hotshot of Theseus"

[@Glocktologist]

One motivation for hopping up the cars is performance: the desire to go faster and win. But another one that’s important for many is simply the act of tinkering. I’m not a race driver who has to be the mechanic as well. I’m a mechanic who drives race cars for fun. Severe limitations on upgrades would be a bummer for me but I guess I’d still choose a vintage class in hopes of being able to enjoy driving more. Modern Modified buggies are too much for my limited skills so I’ve changed to Stock.

[@3Y3ECE]

I also have a little room for my rc shenanigans. My girlfriend is also completely disenchanted with my rc ramblings! But it's cool, I didn't get into this hobby as a child thinking "First we get the RC's, then we get the khakis, then we get the girls!!" Great video fellas, keep up the awesome work!

[@philmoffett366]

Couldn’t agree more! Fair enough re-release cars are new but based on the original (like your hotshot) when I build my re-releases I keep them completely stock with brushed esc and motor and that’s what iconic rc is all about what’s the point in buying a classic then hopping it up with modern parts just go out a buy a modern buggy I think you should be able to run modern radios but brushed only then and like you say put a turn limit on them🤷‍♂️

[@beauson1983]

You could just have two classes, a Vintage stock class and vintage modified class. One has to use stock parts or parts homologated for the class to replace parts you can't get anymore, and a modified class where pretty much anything goes

[@PopalongRC]

That could work

[@beauson1983]

@@PopalongRC I've been around Aussie motorsport instead of RC, and over here we have two vintage racing categories, appendix J and muscle car masters. Appendix J uses nothing but 100% period parts and muscle car masters runs modern equivalent parts, better brakes and gearboxes, etc I figure it'd probably work similar in RC 🤷

[@Tear888]

We had this discussion at work. Vintage racing should include building your own nimh packs, com lathe your motor and learn how to get the best out of old school parts. But I fully understand lipos and brushless motors make it easy for everyone to get involved. I'll stick with my mtc fwd😂

[@PopalongRC]

Hahaha

[@paulgeddert6125]

You could easily make vintage racing Nimh batteries only (purchased or made yourself), and brushed motor turn limit, or stock motor that you can't fiddle with too much (Core RC / Torque Tuned etc). If you made it building your own battery packs, comm latheing motors etc you'd exclude vintage racers who never had those skills.

[@martinhsrc6699]

First revival I went to was with my original egress, standard with brushed motor and esc, even ran NIMHs but I have since given in to brushless, it is so much easier I must admit. I get what you say about tinkering and upgrading which is part of the fun. I would however like to see a class of Sport Tuned, no mods for the older cars, I’d enter! 👍

[@perkristoffersson4153]

Getting brushed motors and esc's is getting increasingly difficult. So brushless it is. And a blinky high-turn limit is nice so you can use say an out-of-the-box re-re Cougar. Allow upgrades that anyone can do, like shocks. Parts that reduce the risk of breakage. There was a lot of tinkering back in the day so as long as your upgrades are documented so that anyone can go about doing them , go ahead. Possibly divide into a stock and a modified class

[@PopalongRC]

Split classes seem a popular opinion

[@Bogues_88]

What it pathetically easy to get a Tamiya 540 brushed motor and a hobby wing or clone brushed esc cost you less than $20 ... Sure brushless is better but definitely a bs call saying it's hard get brushed motor or esc.

[@ballistik100]

Rubbish brushed esc and motor's are everywhere and cheap.

[@johnskii]

Great video lads. Simply, more classes are required to satisfy those wanting a fair brushed vintage race. Ive raced in the 90s, ive got my original car, i bought rere cars, and I've enjoyed running them with brushless lipo setups too... but im currently looking at running my old brushed kit again, but id like to try it all, even running against people with brushless setups. If there is a fair class for this, then even better for everyone to 'give it a go'. Its all good fun at the end of the day

[@FastAsFunk]

Great video. Heavily modified vintage cars are exactly what stop me from going racing. I don't have much spare time to spend tuning up my cars to get a performance avantage. I want to build a car to a set spec and drive it and let driver skill determine the winner. NiMH, silver can or maybe 27t stock, kit shocks, spec servo. Without restraint, it all gets very expensive and very serious with people throwing big money at unobtainium parts and all of a sudden, the fun has gone. An outsider looking in would have a hard time realising that any of it is vintage.

[@SoGoodRc1]

Let's go back... Brushed modified classes 2s lipo is close to 7 cell modified OG classes. There's enough out there to get some good motors going. Go back to handout stock class on 2s lipo. Make vintage.... vintage again.🎉🎉🎉

[@paultimberlake2306]

Great video gents. Someone finally said it….

[@Epic_RC_Time]

I had a brushless set up in a brushed class. I cut open a motor can to put over a small brushless motor and hid the additional wire in the can. Used the tamiya brushed/brushless esc and desoldered the additional wire and fed it through the bottom of the esc, geared with longer gears so it wasnt mega sus on acceleration but it had the speeeeeed. Come at me

[@CraigOverend]

Have qualifying, then reverse grid without telling anyone beforehand. :) Or do handout motors and have some slower turn motors for the faster drivers based on qualifying times. How about any modification from stock gains a turn on your motor. :)

[@rogermills8299]

I get what you are saying here but I have to say that I managed to get A final places in both the most contested 2wd class and the later 4wd class using pretty standard cars (1989 Ultima Pro XL & a Losi XX4 that was loaned to me by the legend that is Nathan Ralls for the event). No big bores, no fancy alloy hop-up, nothing but a few stick on tyre weights no selected motors (seriously the motor in the XX4 was probably slower than anything I've run since 1990). I totally get why people put all the modern electrics in but all the big bores & hop-ups kind of take away from the memories I have of "back-in-the-day"

[@PopalongRC]

I get what your saying

[@GearWorksRc]

Wait until you see my 17.5 Turn Team associated Rc10 b gold pan with a brushless Tekin system in it that will really drive you crazy.

[@daysofnick]

I agree 21.5T cap and only replacement parts that have no physical advantage. The only problem here is you knock out Tamiyas because they don't reach a high enough gear ratio except maybe an Astute.

[@Glocktologist]

Limit the final drive ratio as well. No buggy should be faster than the other. The rate of acceleration and top speed should be capped somehow. Preferably by means that are easy to verify.

[@PopalongRC]

Then you need a gcse in maths just to take part

[@Glocktologist]

It doesn’t need to be difficult. Just a maximum wheel diameter and a gear ratio you shall not exceed.

[@BC-rc]

Maybe create a box stock vintage class, same motors for everyone. We did handout motors, same for everyone.

[@PopalongRC]

Hand out motors ….

[@BC-rc]

​@PopalongRC hand out motor is say a stock 24 degree stock touned brush motor. Everyone got the same one supplied by the track/hobby shop so Everyone ran the same horse power. You could change your gearing and tires to your driving and the track.

[@AtomskTheGreat]

"vintage" shouldn't be a catch-all class for everything old. similarly to modern buggy racing it needs to be separated in (almost) box-stock and modified. total conversions that actually change layout and geometry could be put in a completely different class as for me "vintage" is primarily defined by the geometry and layout of the car. if you change it based on modern knowledge, it's not vintage anymore. for electronics i'd say equivalents are ok. i wouldn't want to force anyone to race with a msc or a nicd battery. but brushed should be at least in a stock class a given. of course all that bears the risk of spreading it too thin to actually have a proper competition.

[@vintageschumacher]

Very interesting debate 🤔 i would take my Falcon out as is with no mods. lol, oh wait, there weren't any mods. In my day, it was all about the matched battery cells motor and esc. Unfortunately, I don't think people will take thier 35/40 year old models out on track. Great video.

[@jeffwhite9392]

St Ives rc club is way ahead on this guys with 2 classes for 540 brushed , mod & stock . Just had a 2 day meet last weekend and I'm going to purchase a re-release this week ( and leave it stock ; as in , " of the period " )

[@3DRCRACER]

I have a few vintage cars. The ones I would want to race are my Losi XX and XXT. I have had each of them since they were brand new, but they are problematic to race. The XX is the more problematic of the two as it was made before wheel standards. It has a 9mm hex on the front and drive pins on the back. Modern tires don't fit on the old wheels which is one problem. I did model some & have 3d printed a full set that works but that does not solve everything. I am generally afraid to race it as I don't want to break an arm I can't replace. Also the front hinge on those cars break easily. As far as vintage vs. kind of vintage, or vintage with mods goes I personally think it would be fun to run a Tamiya re-release class, but those cars won't really survive on a modern track. At least not one built like the one I normally race on. My B74.2D gets a lot of air time compared to the jumps that used to be on old farm dirt tracks from the 80's.

[@pkf4124]

17.5 turn motors work nicely in my Ultima 2 Turbo and my Tamiya LunchBox. So win win for me..

[@robambrose4199]

Have you modified your Lunchbox so that it actually steers properly? I haven't as I wasn't planning to race it, and I'm worried it would lose some of its personality. It turns fine as soon as you take the throttle off though, and skids and slides round nicely. Like my Tamiya Dancing Rider: The slower you go, the tighter it corners.

[@pkf4124]

Ampro engineering designed a set up that sorts it nicely. Gets rid of the negative camber and toe while still retaining the suspension travel. Ampro are currently moving their shop to a new location after Shapeways went pop but one the parts are on there you can have the likes of PCB Way print them out of strong resin and they look OEM and don’t break like the OEM stuff.

[@ad2332]

Alot of vintage events cap the motor at 10.5 blinky to level the playing field but not sure how closely that's checked

[@mcjjordan]

I love seeing the buggies running on grass- brings back good memories, ive no interest in astroturf

[@timreeper1295]

im dying at the end lol i feel yall pain LUL

[@Buster3526]

Great video chaps, and very fair point well made. Are we now looking at Stock and Mod classes for vintage? If you look at th Kyosho Optima’s, the gearboxes and drivetrain have been resigned to cope with brushless power, Kyosho even promote their cars with their brushless motors in, but Tamiya re-re are virtually as per the original, including a 540 silver can motor. So the marketplace is already twisted. And then there are cars such as the Predator that won’t ever be re-re’d, and you need the aftermarket parts to keep them alive. Let’s face it the original RC10 would have long disappeared if it wasn’t for those companies that made the spares to keep them running, and it’s only just now that AE have recognised the vintage demand and come back into the re-re marketplace. I see both sides of your argument but I tend to lean towards Mark’s view, however I can’t deny slowing things down to keep the vintage scene affordable would probably bring more drivers to the party, and that is what we are trying to do, keep the hobby alive and bring new drivers, both young and old into this fantastic hobby.

[@Alan-cg8gx]

Vintage should be brushed with mechanical speed controler and nicads with fm transmitter with crystals 😱😎😜

[@louisedark9586]

Mechanical speed controller, your talking pre 1980 tech! That's really old skool!

[@PopalongRC]

Hahaha

[@andycrute7350]

Great idea with the 17.5 class however there is currently a motor limit (10.5) already at the iconic meetings . If you race cars, limits are always pushed, f1 is no different but bigger and more money and there rules are tighter but teams still find ways to push the envelope

[@roguetorino]

If you don't want to build a modded car then race a box stock class. No one back in the day was running a box stock car. You'd go to the track and there would be RC10s (or name your car model) but not a single one was the same as the others. Too many rules ruin racing as much as having no rules. The fact that there's so much diversity of models is, to me, the greatest part of vintage racing. if there's going to be any rule made it better have a good reason behind it. As soon as you start making rules for the sake of rules it get annoying not only for the competitors but also the race coordinators who have to scrutineer/tech every car.

[@PopalongRC]

True

[@rogergale3297]

110% with Carl all day long. Trouble is we race on different types of surface outdoors nowadays with bigger jumps. That's why people hop them to also make them stronger

[@Glocktologist]

Words like ”vintage” are too vague. It means different things to anyone you ask. What I like about vintage and rere cars are the vehicles themselves. I hated 27 MHz AM radios and didn’t exactly enjoy 40 MHz FM, either. Not missing the brushed motors or the NiCd batteries one bit. And I certainly don’t miss having only enough juice for a 5-minute run. But I also strongly believe the playing field should be level. And we achieve it by defining exactly what is allowed and what is not. I think a turn-limit for the motor is not enough because people push Stock electronics with gearing and require carefully selected batteries to power it up. My solution would be a turn-limit but also a limited final drive ratio to keep the speeds reasonable for the vehicles. You should be able to achieve race-winning speed and acceleration with basic electronics and batteries. Modern electronics with a cap on the performance would allow to run longer races. No longer are we limited to 5 or 8 minutes because the equipment doesn’t allow. If you want to exclude big bore shocks, just name the maximum bore in millimeters and you’re done. Want a fair class for really old buggies? Just name a year of release. There’s no reason to pitch a Frog against a B2 even if both are vintage (the AE B2 will be 30 years old next year)! All of this can be resolved if you can write down a comprehensive rule book that reflects the views of the people who race these things. There are examples of strictly regulated classes being popular and fun, such as the Tamiya Euro trucks.

[@dazaspc]

In the days of Nicad running cars at the limit of what was available battery wise was a significant restriction. You tuned the car around the available power and that was it. We used to run teams enduro events and that was a great challenge as speed vs laps vs change car/driver time was a real challenging thing yet easily attainable. Do you tune your car to do 7 minutes driving slower or 4 running quickly. Slow driver in the fast car or the fast driver in the slow to get to the end the quickest. Great fun and a piece of the hobby you dont see now.

[@RichHole-fu1ee]

I kind of get you , did my 1st revival this year at bingham. Entered with a og rc10 6gear and almost stock boomerang both running brushed. I was under no illusions thst I has absolutely no chance but had the greatest weekend racing both b finals but getting a 2nd with the Boomerang. I have cars thst could of done better but in the spirit I wanted to keep it og . Worked out great as the finals sorted themselves out so had some great racing with similar cars while the modified guys were in the A final Given the driving talent there as well I don't think I could of done better even with my fastest cars Vintage in UK is booming and the most friendly scene with smiles and fun with the bonus of making money for charity, obviously some take it more seriously but overall I think John does a great job rule wise trying to please everybody. Although I do agree more stock racing would be good check out the tamiya dt02 challenge at Broxtowe next year 👍

[@Marco_Vulpine]

LMAO, special treat for you huh! 😋😛

[@crow7291]

I recon they should have a hoped up class and a standard class with minimal upgrades. 👍🏻standard should run standard brushed motors and Nimh batteries, no upgrades to chassis or suspension links or shocks. Hoped up is what it is. 😊👍🏻

[@wadeskelton7585]

😄😄😄 keeping it real!

[@rantsandreviews]

I think a true vintage class would consist of vintage and repro cars. But all cars should have OE spec (factory equivalent) parts. I can see an exception being made for modern ESC's but motors should be brushed. We raced brush motors and manual ESCs for years and dealt with the issues. Anything less is not "vintage" in my opinion.

[@nathanwilson588]

A vintage box stock class wouldn’t last. The parts aren’t available too keep them all on track. A few modern upgrades keeps them racing and useable.

[@PopalongRC]

That’s true

[@paulphillips2941]

I know not all parts are available for all models anymore but id say vintage class should mean all parts are original spec if available or as close to original specs as possible. People would be able to tune them and fit upgrade parts if they were available from the manufacturer for the particular model they're running. If people want to run bigger brushless motors for example there should be a 'super' vintage class for them to race in instead.

[@22ti40]

Only way to be 100% fair is a box stock class. One where the event organisers provide the car to run. And random reallocation of cars between heats and races. I’ve race real cars in stock classes and as long there is racing there will be tweaking all the way to full blown cheating. Best one I heard was a series where you ran stock and if you were suspected of cheating with your engine you had to remove it and swap with the championship organisers stock engine.

[@CassieRowlands]

❤❤❤

[@samuelstrauss5119]

Awsome

[@old_and_slow5471]

I think if someone wants to run a "Vintage" class race series, they should limit the cars to period correct mods. Stick with brushed motors, shock bodies that were available when the car was first introduced, at least similar sized tires and no more than 2s batteries, since that is as close as we all usually have to the old 6 cell nicad packs. Once you start upgrading to brushless on most of the old stuff, transmissions like to melt, and the increased speed rends to break the older plastics more often in a crash. Just my 2 cents

[@ianski68]

Hey guys. What is needed is a Stock class. A bit like the Iconic stock class. More or less straight out the box. Maybe a few hop ups that are to help with longevity but not performance related. Also it may encourage new racers.

[@PopalongRC]

That could work

[@ianski68]

@@PopalongRC maybe allow upgrade shox. Set brushed motor. ESC can be what’s available. And that’s it. Everything else as it comes out the box.

[@MatzeS-k8d]

Maan a Baby Born commercial after this Video is brutal as fook YT😂😂😂❤❤

[@nidzdotnet76]

Back in the day, nobody had an advantage because that's all you could get then. Now days we have brushless, big gearing, new ESC, new battery technology and they put them in to go faster. I agree the OG was much slower.

[@Marktravis356]

Do agree , but I was running my rc10 at my local club with brushed motor and nimh battery , it was good but unreliable ,changed to brushless and Lipo for reliability really . Who was it at the big wheel race with vintage lunchbox covered in blue allly bling that was not available back in the day?

[@guymarotta2596]

Honestly, vintage box-stock RC vehicles should be raced in a separate class from the modified cars. It would be more fair to everyone.

[@MX-CO]

Yes

[@stephenlay9580]

Core 21 would be fun or just stock .there's is difference between the two motors but would be fairer . The core 21 set up would make it more affordable for people without deep pockets.

[@jongreenhalgh]

Maintaining brushed motors is expensive. Imo a stock class brushless with modern electrics is a good 'mod' class Vintage. Maubuchi 540s for the stock Vintage class ;)

[@fencer39]

How is it expensive. We all did it back in the day and nobody complained. Yet these day folks use £400 radio systems !

[@basementracer]

They should start a box stock rere-class that would solve the problem once and for all. The vintage cars will always need modern parts because you simply can’t get the original parts nowadays. However, if they would start a box stock rere-class it would solve the problem. It’s the closest you will get 30 years later to vintage racing.

[@dazaspc]

90% of a competitive car and driver is driver the first %10 is the car. Everyone who wants to win will go to the limit of what the rules allow if they need to. So the bleedingly obvious is a control class. Be it hand out motors or a motor restriction, Battery restriction and a control ESC. If people complain let them go to a modified class. As for Chassis mods you just need to use a bit of common sense for a vintage class. Want to race your Mini Mustang but you don't have enough dog bones modded stuff is ok just like shocks and towers and other stuff. If the cars been remade like an RC10 classic you need to use those parts only.

[@PopalongRC]

That could work

[@guymarotta2596]

I have nothing against racers who enjoy hopping up their cars, but I don't want to race against them with basically a stock vehicle. Let's keep racing fair and keep them in separate classes.

[@crow7291]

Carl, I was just wondering, how did you deal with the steering on the Super Hotshot? I find that since i upgraded the to the Aluminium steering knuckles the arms hit the shocks, and when the suspension is pushed down the front wheels angle outwards. It steers like a tanker 😂. Any advice? I have looked online but it seems hard to find any ideas.

[@ckcoolic]

Weren’t all the race cars back in the day hopped up to the gills? Are the pro cars today the most box stock they’ve ever been?

[@petersmith9039]

Let them throw on shocks/bling/lightweight parts all they want as long as it meets minimum weight and then hobble them with a handout silver can and a suitable low amp modern brushed esc. Everyone at the club chips in the cost of a brushed setup plus a spare or 3 and they are pulled out at start of day, numbered and drawn from a hat, everyone has an equal chance of getting the best combo of the bunch or the worst!

[@muddfoot69]

Vintage racing should be as close to vintage as possible (re-re ok) but sans the big bore, custom aluminum, custom 5mm towers, etc We have vintage cars outpacing the modern buggies in AZ Elects are hard to police as old school ones aren’t available (controlled batteries, 21.5 would be ideal) want to go faster…I support a vintage model class I run a 21.5 because I don’t want to shatter my retro cars

[@GarethJaineRCRacing]

I've said it before about vintage racing. It should be at least brushed motors. Radio doesn't make any difference, but at least make a bit of effort to restore what you're trying to replicate. Clearly you'll need to add a layshaft to keep a car going, but If the car didn't come with a slipper then don't add one. The brushed motors would slow the speed down a bit.

[@lo2713]

This has been a big debate for ages, like you say. People will push the rules to the limit in every corner. I think the 10.5 limit was a good move, but others didnt like it as they then had to buy new motors. I would like to see it lower to slow them down, but then you run the risk of loosing the fast boys. Big bore shocks could easly be banned, plenty of choices out there these days, but some people will allways do everything to win

[@totalbarry4853]

As much as I would ideally want vintage cars radio and electrics, it is probably not workable. At the very least though the cars should be original design, so yea, NO BIG BORE SHOCKS. What about a standard class, like old rrci rules with standard 27t brushed handout motor. Those motors are still made in the far east and are cheap.

[@TheRCBuildersPost]

They should have a vintage box stock only class. Only upgrades allowed could be like modern brushed ESC and brushed motor and stock replacement parts.

[@nicholasgoodall82]

I don't think there's even a modern class that is box stock only so why would it be appealing for vintage racing?

[@Glocktologist]

”Box stock only” in a rule book is a dead end. Manufacturers can simply release a kit with upgrades included and suddenly there’s a winning ”box stock” car.

[@nicholasgoodall82]

@@Glocktologist the same applies with the vintage kits, a box stock Optima would out perform a box stock Tamiya of any sort.... I guess the only way it works is everyone runs the same car i.e a box stock RC10 with kit oils, tyres etc but I don't see that appealing as it never existed before (and doesn't in modern classes), people love to race the cars they either raced in the past or at least cars they maybe lusted after but couldn't afford

[@TheRCBuildersPost]

@@nicholasgoodall82 We have a few box stock classes. 4tec, tt02 and apex2

[@nicholasgoodall82]

@@TheRCBuildersPost yeah but I have never seen it in off road

[@markchinery387]

Brushed motors are not a good thing…. To encourage people to enter/rejoin the hobby brushless and longer runtime is a great thing. No more worrying about the greatest matched cells, motors being zapped, skim and brushes every run. Is it identical? No. Should it be? I don’t think so. Use the improvements in tech and keep these cars alive. It’s thriving so it must be doing something right.

[@martinhsrc6699]

I’ve got a brand new LRP vintage esc for sale. An F1 Bullet (no motor limit)

[@tunkstune9373]

I find brushless is actually fairer once you learn it’s not witchcraft, especially with off road. Brushed motors have too many little mods involved to make them faster, such as water dipping and cranking the comm for timing advance, being passed down the straight with a “control” motor isn’t fun 😂 you would need handout motors for each event and someone to look after them (no good handing out a motor with worn brushes to ruin someone’s day) Modifications to parts are why I race rc cars, something I enjoy is making them faster, big bore shocks for instance have a larger operating window in terms of setup so again make it easier to have a nicer handling car for longer periods. Some people also say nimhs too, why! It’s old tech and again to be competitive you need multiple sets of properly looked after cells to make 5mins let alone be fast. One thing I do disagree with is non kit geometry, that’s something in the dna of the chassis you are racing that shouldn’t be messed with.

[@PopalongRC]

fair point

[@brandonmott674]

What about running breakout classes with a minimum lap time? Then it doesn't matter what car or motor you have, you just have to consistently run as close to the minimum as possible. It's definitely not a perfect solution but it would put everyone on a pretty level playing field and allow people to modify their cars how they like or leave them near box stock and all race together. Also no issue with it being a "spec" class because speed is limited by lap time only. A local oval track does this for street stock and they seem to get consistently good turn out for it

[@Zed32_Customs]

I want nothing more than a race class that limits cars to brushed motors and nimh batteries and is run on actual dirt. Everything else can be as modded as you want. Smaller jumps and slower racing is more fun.

[@PopalongRC]

100% with you on this .... watch this space

[@bradkalman2353]

You could ask for a retro class where it looks old but has modifications.

[@TimeAttackRC]

We did that at the last vintage enduro and we call it Outlaw , we had 21.5 motors and it could be any rear motor 2wd so we had B3/4, TLR 22, TRF 201, Ultima RB5, and the Genova, dirtmaster and PR racing vintage looking cars on track together.

[@bradkalman2353]

@@TimeAttackRC you should do it again.

[@TimeAttackRC]

@@bradkalman2353 it was a success so we will be doing it again, had Outlaw 2wd and 4wd over the weekend at the festival at St Ives.

[@madmoo8836]

make vintage racers use nimh's with a max of 3300mah would help. lipos werent a thing in the 90s

[@teabagmcpick889]

it's Trigger's broom. You need two classes.

[@andy19seventysix70]

That's what she said.