The Walking Dead Secret Lair, and why it sucks. A brief history lesson - WOTC Plz - MTG News

[@MouseDrink]

I honestly didnt even think it was real tbh

[@danielsmith217]

I thought it was a joke

[@MouseDrink]

Daniel Smith Same. Crazy that these are going to be legal in eternal formats as well. Blows my mind

[@NickOnFire1490]

I didn't believe it until I saw the article on the WotC website, the cards look like they came from bottom bin of r/custommagic.

[@bluedog4248]

@@MouseDrink I feel like the actual cards will be printed in innistrad probably? I hate this because as someone put it, the walking dead isn't really appropriate for magic. I honestly think these cards should be banned in all eternal formats until the actual cards are released.

[@catoblepasomega]

Reading the announcement and seeing the spoiled cards actually left me momentarily disoriented, it was so out there. Hard to be positive about something that makes you question if you are losing your marbles. I know it will make them money since it's being advertised as essentially 'print directly to reserve list' and people will flock to it if only for the opportunity to get ahold of a card that's going to be extremely (artificially) rare...but this is awful for the health of the game. I can't see moves like this doing any favors for WoTC's image in the eyes of their players as it is so openly greedy and hypocritical on multiple levels. It just seems so unbelievably...short sighted.

[@Malkaveer]

The problem with voting with our dollars is that the people with more dollars have more votes.

[@welldang4]

so just call it American voting

[@Malkaveer]

@@welldang4 It's true. The trick to not being sad about it, is that the sadness goes on forever.

[@ashleypsimmons]

@@Malkaveer That's my secret, Captain. I'm always depressed.

[@PhazonOmega]

So, we need an electoral college for voting with dollars?

[@Malkaveer]

@@PhazonOmega maybe i can suggest Hasbro fighting with fantasy flight over 'living card game,' and then release LCG sets for people who can't/won't gamble, and then 18+ people can just actively gamble...like we already tacitly doing.

[@andrea9342]

They look like the cards you make with card editors when you are drunk, or high, or both...

[@origaminosferatu3357]

Get out of my head!

[@timothy3450]

Honestly that bothers me more than anything else. The cards look so lazy

[@PhileasLiebmann]

That's exactly what I thought! This is the sort of thing people patch together in their free time to put on fandom subreddits or something.

[@Buffypoodle]

I think it’s unique artwork at least

[@calenhoover1124]

Eh the cards look great I think, the entire practice behind them on the other hand is downright disgusting.

[@hachiman127]

I know the slippery slope argument is usually wrong, but when they tried Firesong and Sunspeaker for a mechanically unique BaB promo, we got Nexus of Fate the next set.

[@jasonkorf7700]

No, you are correct because if Wotc knows they can get away with this then they'll just push the cards with the next one. Just look at it today, Glenn just revealed today and already people in the Legacy and Vintage Community have been discussing if the card is playable, which seems to be yes in Esper Vial and maybe in Infect to draw cards.

[@posadistpossum]

I remember when there were people that got upset about the Godzilla stuff calling them a slippery slope. I feel bad for not listening to them now

[@Funder1Nk]

Followed kenrith a few sets later.

[@Funder1Nk]

Jason Korf yeah. Glenn looks very very good.

[@grantrockefeller4414]

What's worse is that, considering the design process for new sets, this was likely already planned years in advance. They banked on being able to get away with it.

[@ytmortal]

"Promises to collectors are more important than promises to players." Totally agree.

[@wittmoneyman]

That rung with me more than anything else.

[@EatWasteland]

I know that might sound stupid. I am collecting and playing, but surely more collecting. For me this is still bad. Not because it is no collectible peace, it really might be, but: the downside is so huge. I like to collect stuff randomly inserted in packs. Some lucky guy needs to pull it out. This is just a cash grab by WotC, and they are breaking promises again. I am quite sure they continue doing, and one day it will be the last promise to break (reserved list). From my point of view, this gane suffered so hard, from a collectors perspective, thats a shame. Nothing is special anymore. They are just pushing it over the edge.

[@violetlazuli3998]

I think previously that was true, but now they don't care about their promises to anyone. I don't think sticking to the reserve list, so far, has anything to do with wanting to keep a promise

[@Eveniswrong]

There are more players than investors. Without player interest, investors lose money. If Coca-Cola didn't care about the people who drank their soda, their stock would lose value. I think that if magic was built to be a healthy play experience, it can have a more broad player base and increase card values over time.

[@ruaridhusher4373]

1995-2016 is actually 21 years, not 11. Reprint of Vince when?

[@Slaughtermane]

Not a mathematician confirmed

[@GodwynDi]

Math is for blockers

[@insanecrusties]

* 'well actually' glasses-pushing intensifies *

[@GodwynDi]

@Jay Morales I do remember. But memes never die.

[@naejin]

I was just going to post this. Well, at least he did kind of cover his bases before doing his "math".

[@alfred8936]

Imagine if the first printing of True-Name Nemesis was in a Disney themed microset that was only available for an afternoon, and the card art and name were based on Donald Duck

[@nkmason8284]

Now I want a Donald Duck MTG card?!?

[@Hitzel]

that would be quacked

[@altromonte15]

Magic 2021: Temur Pogchamp is very strong, only Keanu Reeves tribal sideboarding Big Chungus can keep it in check after they banned affinity Fall Guys, it dominated the last Mythic Invitationals.

[@MadolcheGabbana]

@@nkmason8284 Scrooge McDuck Treasure Token Alternative Art.

[@catoblepasomega]

Since they didn't go the Godzilla card route they can't reprint them, only do functional reprints with different names. Even if they end up doing a functional reprint, that wouldn't fix the problem, because it would mean you could effectively have 2 in commander decks and up to 8 in other formats, which would just make things so much worse if any of them turn out to be good.

[@scottcampbell9515]

If there's a Ronald McDonald Secret Lair set a lot of players will Grimace. ... I'll see myself out.

[@MetPhD]

I’m so glad I read this far down into the comments.

[@shanjudo4510]

@@dungeontales8117 i thought so too :)

[@patrickstonecrusher]

👍😒

[@AskTheBartender]

Idk a golgari Grimace commander deck sounds like some dank jank

[@scottcampbell9515]

@@AskTheBartender Come on now. It'll be Grixis because you know Grimace is a deep purple swol boi.

[@impendio]

These should've just been silver bordered or godzilla overlays. Wotc's greed is impressive. Fomo functionally reserved list cards sold directly from wizards, what a time to be alive. Just imagine one being playable in Delver or cEDH... Fucking hell.

[@kiowaharrell]

Yes they are greedy but it's the damn community giving them the money its not like they are utility company and raising our bill these are products the community doesn't have to buy to live but people will still buy these for whatever reason

[@rhvette]

The templating on these Walking Dead cards is so crap, that I think you’ve got a point about these not being R&D’s doing. They look like they were cobbled together by an intern to appease a C level suit. I do have to disagree with you about the Commander Rules Committee, though. I think we need to put a line in the sand to WOTC that this isn’t acceptable and the RC planting a flag on our side would definitely send that message nice and clear. People should be respectful and not hound the RC, but we really need that 800 lb gorilla on our side of this fight.

[@fishrunner23]

Looks like I just house rule banned these cards lol.

[@jasongalloway4645]

I'm with you on the Rules Committee aspect of this. Maybe I'm being overly cynical, but those of us who are upset about this enough to skip buying the product aren't going to matter much for Wotc's bottom line on this run. I'm not even really mad about Wotc trying this...they're a company and like all companies they exist primarily to make money. So if they see this as an opportunity for some quick cash, sure let them try it. But if we as a community don't push back and say "not today satan" or some along those lines, they'll keep doing it, which could have long term bad effects for the game as a whole.

[@cooliosntsprtc]

We need to figure out how to make hasbro drop wotc. Or we could all just let wotc go bankrupt and end the printing of new cards for good.

[@luminous3558]

@@jasongalloway4645 WotC already makes insane amounts of money from normal packs and all the other premium garbage they have been throwing at us. Going for max cash while disregarding all the other factors is just reckless and could kill their precious moneymaking machine if they keep pushing ahead at this pace.

[@jasongalloway4645]

@@luminous3558 I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying that I get why Wotc (or more likely Hasbro) deiced to push ahead with this. They saw an opportunity to make some cash and decided rolling the dice on it was worth it, which they have a right to do, but I hope it bites them in the ass tbh. The Rules Committee banning these cards before release would go a long way to ensure I think. The sad fact is that when you have a very large company like Hasbro pulling the strings (I think most of the folks at WotC do still care about the game overall, but I could wrong about that) the only way to really convey a message is make it effect their balance sheet. If they get enough backlash from the community and end up seeing a decrease in profits as a result of this, hopefully they won't try it again. You're right that this is ulitmateley short sited and stands to damage the format over all if other sets follow this trend. What they should have done was release these as silver boarder cards or as alt's of existing cards as others have said.

[@BB-pn2qv]

Really mad, and actually seriously considering selling out of the game completely... It has been a garbage fire for over a year, and no sign of anything improving.

[@isaacsantos6200]

Just go into EDH my dude. I left every other format years ago, but just turned my cards into EDH decks and have been having a hell of a time

[@spooplegeist]

@Isaac Santos Playing EDH doesn’t fix the company’s. brain dead decisions.

[@isaacsantos6200]

@@spooplegeist But it does let you still play the game in a fairly self contained environment. If you don't like these cards, then you can just not sit down for a game with anyone running them. In any other format you'd just have to deal with it

[@spooplegeist]

@Isaac Santos Some people just don’t want to support the game on principle anymore. On top of that, if you keep playing, eventually you’ll have to accept that cards like this exist. You can’t just ignore people playing them forever. Also, not everyone likes the EDH format. It’s not a solution to all the ills of the magic community.

[@isaacsantos6200]

@@spooplegeist never said it was a solution, just another option. And you don't have to buy any more cards, just use what you have

[@fusionenvironmentalsolutions]

“I’m not really a mathematician but that’s 11 years” welp Vince nobody can say you’re not being truthful with us.

[@shanemackay493]

I was waiting for the joke about it being old enough to drink... was the 11 years a joke or honest error?

[@mattvoll9094]

@@shanemackay493 i think it's 21 years not 11

[@BrewersKitchen]

I thought they were bad custom cards when I first saw them...

[@goatshield193]

that's basically why I hate it. literally anyone could have made those cards on any of the custom card sites

[@LordZetera00]

The Negan one isn't that bad. Michonne is absolutely terrible. I could've done a better job and I don't even do art.

[@mtgcalix8977]

I love them

[@MakeEmRageQuit]

@@LordZetera00 i want to build a commander deck around Negan, as I'm sure many people do. Michonne needs like, deathtouch or something.

[@nothing4mepls973]

After this, the one good thing that could come of this is people's acceptance of custom cards. It could be a lot of fun to workshop some ideas with your playgroup, make it in Magic Set Editor, then print out a bunch at FedEx. I bet most playgroups could design more fun and better balanced cards than the monkeys on typewriters at WOTC nowadays.

[@welldang4]

"It"s just tiring, I guess." exactly how I feel about everything WOTC has done since Khans

[@pangypirate]

I started playing during bfz and it’s gotten really really bad in recent years standard was basically unplayable cuz uro

[@rafaelbordoni516]

Ah, the infamous Metamorphosis II article by Rosewater, explaining how much the game is about to change in all its parts, and Magic Origins is going to be where it all starts... Khans was the last pre NeW eRa set. I got fed up at around Kaladesh and Aether Revolt. Didn't played the game since.

[@mastertonberry9224]

Agreed, Khans was great, felt like an old set and was the last time I really enjoyed standard

[@pangypirate]

Rafael Bordoni war did me in. At least prior to war there were multiple decks once kaladesh rotated anyway. Dominaria was really fun i made a wizard deck and it wasn’t good but it pulled more wins than i expected it too and had fun playing it but ever since war there’s been a dominant deck that you either play or lose to

[@commonsense9173]

@@rafaelbordoni516 Even then, Khan's was a 3 set block with only 2 sets active in standard at any point in time. It was the transition from normal to this crap.

[@notme222]

I'm not particularly crazy about MLP, Transformers, or Godzilla cards. But it wasn't worth complaining about. Functionally unique Secret Lairs is a major step too far.

[@GodwynDi]

Functionally unique non-sikver bordered is the problem. And I say this as someone with an MLP commander deck built. I ask if people mind, of so I play a different deck. I enjoy them but would never want them printed as cards that are part of the MtG world.

[@haydenbest1014]

Honestly though why can't they just make this a cover art over those legendary creatures we actually want to see reprinted?? There's no justifiable reason to make these functionally unique cards other than to test the waters with directly selling exclusive singles at a premium price. I would happily buy the Secret Lair, pringle can though it may be, if we actually saw the reprint of useful commanders like Meren or even something thematic like Skullbriar, who has climbed to over 11$ since its last printing. Come on WoTC, yall can do better...

[@CGPublicRadio]

This seems like something that could only happen in 2020

[@JustforKikX]

I can totally understand why. They decide to make a product that not only screws over LGS, but this one is exclusive and can never be found elsewhere. Were it a reskin of an already existing card that. would be one thing. But this practice is alienating most of the community.

[@GodwynDi]

The Godzilla method was perfect for it.

[@bayouboyentertainment2106]

@@GodwynDi not really Godzilla cards were put in collector's boosters only at a substantially higher price point therefore still alienating alot of the community, so i would say it was far from perfect.

[@drinkupnerds]

@@bayouboyentertainment2106 you can get Godzilla cards in regular boosters, albeit at a much lower rate

[@greysonmiller9407]

What a time to do a Walking dead promo as well, nearly 8 years after it was in mainstream.

[@ArixOdragc]

WotC being behind the times? Never!

[@Billchu13]

Personally, I have boycotted all the Secret Lair drops because they are not for sale at my LGS. New Walking Dead Previews open a Pandora's Box of possibilities for what they can put in these drops. These cards aren't busted or even particularly good, but the next cycle might be. Firesong and Sunspeaker weren't broken, but Nexus of Fate was. Especially since they are cutting LGSs out of their sales model for these products, I would strongly support house banning the secret lair drops that aren't printed anywhere else.

[@georgiopapakonstantinou1580]

I honestly just don't see the value of them. Besides the constellation gods, there wasn't one I was like 'huh maybe I'll pay a premium for those'. I didn't buy the gods but I may in the future

[@pangypirate]

Georgio Papakonstantinou i bought the kailediscope killers because it was cheaper than buying ur dragon, sliver overlord and the scarecrow guy i think it was as individuals and i bought a few copies of rats cuz i have friends i thought would get a kick out of all of us building rat decks and playing them against eachother

[@georgiopapakonstantinou1580]

@@pangypirate I just looked them up. They look really nice I like that art

[@Billchu13]

There are several that I would buy through LGS. Fetch lair is one I would support, if the price point was around $40-50. Unfortunately it's $240

[@georgiopapakonstantinou1580]

@@Billchu13 oh yeah easily

[@LikeGodzzila]

I remember back in the day when I would open pointless ad cards instead of tokens, and I always hoped: "Man, I wish these Ad Cards were actual game pieces"

[@hijjf]

Personally had they either given these the Godzilla treatment, or the Silver boarder treatment I wouldn't care, but it's the fact that there isn't even a chance that I can open a normal booster (premium or otherwise) and see these mechanic cards in them, I'd love to play with a card that has Negans effect in commander, it seems real fun honestly, but the fact that I have to pay in a limited time scale to get these cards or risk never getting them for the cheap again is what makes me hate them. Imagine if you were a new player trying to get into commander, legacy or vintage 3 months down the line and you see these cards and think they'd be perfect for the deck you're looking to build, and you find out that it was a limited print run outside of booster packs and suddenly each card will set you back far more than you're willing to spend, but everyone else at your local game store or in your playgroup has them because they were able to buy them when announce, but you just never did and never will have to chance to purchase them

[@benryhanks8841]

I really hope these cards get banned in Commander

[@impendio]

Same tbh, it's more about telling wotc that this isn't ok nor acceptable.

[@drakeconsumerofsoulsandche4303]

The CRC is currently discussing this, and will release an announcement later

[@joelmonteiro1419]

Glenn is really good. He may see some Legacy play.

[@fidly4]

To be honest they seem like fun commanders, I just wish they didn't have walking dead characters plastered all over them. I might play the Negan deck under a different name with different art.

[@alexmo1941]

Unfortunately the RC for commander are quite less than incompetent. They will only ban around casual.

[@RyanCase1124]

1995 to 2016 - 11 years... that math checks out.

[@cholland67]

Yea l noticed too lol

[@micah3030]

Well didn’t you know? He’s only 21!

[@matthewwilliams4249]

"Wizards should do X" Wizards does Y, rakes in millions of dollars. "Your concern has been noted." This doesn't end until it doesn't sell. They have people who are 6 or 7 lairs behind (in receiving) still buying everything they put out. They literally sold you 5 basic lands for 25 (I think) dollars and they sold like wild fire. It's basically the modern equivalent of the south sea bubble.

[@kiowaharrell]

That almost seems borderline scamming being that far behind. Sure maybe due to covid-19 they are really far behind but at the same time if you are that far behind ether say with the new drops to expect delays or just wait till you are caught up

[@ernie.zer0]

Above all else, it would just look aesthetically wrong. You're playing with wizards, rogues and warriors, using wands and swords, with mythical creatures like pegasus and minotaur... then someone sits at the table with a card showing a guy in a leather jacket and jeans wielding a baseball bat

[@cloudthedark1]

So if they're willing to break this promise, we have enough room to demand they break the reserved list "promise"

[@commonsense9173]

@Jay Morales as a player, scarcity of rare and old cards from the earliest days of magic is part of the game

[@nrpbrown]

I'm completely with you on this. I saw them and was pretty thrown that they didn't have a silver boarder. And to be honest, i'm still a little weirded out by the DnD in Zendikar Rising but I realize it at least fits thematically.

[@dantebeleren]

And is the some company. A logical tie in

[@PaulGaither]

MtG has its origins in D&D. It was designed to be a quick and portable game that you and friends could bring to D&D night and play while waiting for the rest of your party to show up and situations like that. Many of the original spells are pulled straight from D&D by name. D&D has had MtG settings as campaign guides and everything. They belong together.

[@taliesine.8343]

@@PaulGaither They are also made by the same company so there is that

[@PaulGaither]

@@taliesine.8343 - Well, TSR is who publised D&D for about 20 years or more and it was bought by WotC later.

[@nrpbrown]

I understand perfectly why they did it and it makes sense from a marketing/company perspective but cross brand tie ins like that take me out of the moment when something already has an established lore and universe. The Walking Dead stuff much moreso of course but if i have to picture a literal D&D "party" while playing Magic, it sorta drags it for me. And the two of them happening so close, makes me agree with Vince that theyre testing the waters for doing this even more. It doesnt help that i dont like D&D very much but even if i did i cant see myself liking this much.

[@davidfrance2915]

"I tap 1 colorless 1 Blue and 1 Red to play my doctor Commander, Dr. Pepper, Quencher of Thirst. When Dr. Pepper enters the battlefield, I can search my library for up to two islands, put one onto the battlefield tapped, and on into my hand.". Flavor text:. Ahhhh.... Catch Dr. Pepper and all the new industry leading Commanders next time on MTG Secret Lair Sells Out.

[@untrustworthyshelfing9953]

An awful and disgusting product.

[@konstanten3270]

Tinfoil hat theory: Wotc knows that fake cards will be indistinguishable from real cards within the next 5-10 years and tries to squeeze out as much money as possible before then

[@Grix1s]

Yes and no. The Chinese Proxy makers already make the counterfeits in higher quality than WotCs own cards (I own a few, I should know) but they are keenly aware that if they make them anymore real, they will lose the business. So on purpose, they make the backs thicker or do not embed the stickers along the printing and align a waxier feeling to the cards. This is all on purpose so their product, while indistinguishable from view from the real thing, is still recognized for what it is and they can hold their business. It would be bad practice for themselves if all value lost in original cards would tumble their price down to 5 or 10 bucks, cause then what is the purpose from buying from them anymore?

[@TheJohannes44]

@@Grix1s I found that difficult to believe so I ordered a batch and yes, the proxies are indeed better quality than wotc products. Especially the foils, but also the regular ones. No differences in color and no bending. And that for only 1.5$ a piece.

[@Grix1s]

@@TheJohannes44 Yup, amazing isn't it? The only thing and difference is the light test, a waxy feel to the card and the rosette pattern, but someone might need to examine the card up close for, say, a trade or sale for that to be even noticed. It's quite impossible to notice those things away from across a table. At this point, the difference are almost benign and buying the most expensive cards out of pocket is just ridiculous now unless you actually want to invest in cardboard rather than stocks. Otherwise get your cards, fuck wotc over and buy your boosters and not extremely expensive cards (Unlike some touchy mtg players think, Proxy makers don't have every single card made, only the most desirable, hardly accessible or most expensive. I.E. All Masterpieces and Box Toppers so far.) from your LFLGS and enjoy playing magic while saving money. Win-Win.

[@bluedog4248]

all honesty, I feel like that these cards should just be banned until the actual cards are printed. Also, no one mentions this, but technically Ikora does have a card similar to these cards. Zilortha primal strength is just a godzilla skin. The actual card doesn't exist, only the godzilla verison

[@Goblin_War_Buggy]

These aren't skins though. The actual card name is walking dead related

[@goosel9347]

I think the difference between these cards and the Godzilla card you’re referring to is that if WotC wants to reprint Zilortha, they can do so in the future as the same card with the “original” name. If they want to reprint these Walking Dead cards they need to print the same card with a different name which means that both cards can be used.

[@FlashPlayerGames]

The difference is they can print Zilortha without the Godzilla skin, and Mark Rosewater has confirmed they've already commissioned art for Zilortha. It's a matter of WHEN, not if. These cards, by not being skins, cannot be reprinted as they are. It would have to be functional reprints.

[@DarthChocolate15]

@@FlashPlayerGames or unprecedented errata to "make these skins" for the newly printed card, despite not having the name anywhere on them. They would essentially be erasing these from existence "as cards" to do that though, which seems unlikely (and would f with card database/deck lists pretty hard)

[@mooshthemighty5733]

I bet Zilortha is going to be in Commander Legends, at least I hope.

[@thekkidd3d]

Almost like never again printing cards that are on a certain list.....can't possibly be done. They promised. They swore. There could be lawsuits. It will be the end of Hasbro as a company.....

[@captainkarnage9874]

"Get You Pitchforks!" "Get Your Torches While Their Hot!"

[@mondasin]

Why are you selling pre-lit torches?

[@SirKaibel]

These aren't magic cards, they are "the walking dead" cards, thus they should not be legal in magic the gathering. They should be BANNED in all formats. Otherwise, people are gonna get confused and start bringing Pokemon/yu-gi-oh/poker/monopoly cards to MtG games

[@BB-pn2qv]

Vince, do not play a Walking Dead deck. I will NOT watch that.

[@JustinWedekind]

Or do, but lose so you can claim the cards are crap, driving down sales

[@AstraRandom]

I looked at Twitter yesterday, saw all this shit and was like yup I'm out, and logged off. Like the only thing I don't like about this is the mechanically uniqueness of it, because that's so fucking dumb, like I do like dumb crossovers, I have the mlp cards and I really liked the Godzilla lands, and while the walking dead ain't for me people like it so it's for them, I just wish these were just silver bordered or given the godzilla treatment, and hell Im pretty sure the internet would go nuts over a Negan card if it came out back when he was at the height of popularity like in what 2015 or 16?

[@VGJustice]

Exactly, all of this. I've got the MLP set as well (and would love to help Wizards raise a bunch of money for charity again for the rest of them), and I really liked the Godzilla cards. But this secret lair is something else. It's a bad precedent and should be fought immediately.

[@Tarox27]

I love how in a time before Twitter and KZbin the backlash was so great they promised to never do it again. Now when it’s easier than ever to let them know what we think they don’t seem to care.

[@moyza_]

"that if these cards become popular in Eternal formats" yes, the _limited special print cards_ will become very, very popular

[@tophertbone24601]

Imagine a world where Wizards used this secret lair as an opportunity to preview what would be cards out of Commander Legends, and the Walking Dead cards were just like the Godzilla cards out of Ikora....could have been pretty sweet

[@chrishetmanski1709]

I haven't finished yet, but around the 5:45 mark, regarding MaRo's comment about how WotC decided to never do this again. It's funny how the things they've said (repeatedly) they're never going to do again that most players *want* for them to never do again (free mana spells, exclusive-only cards), they repeatedly do again. (Just a few weeks ago MaRo said they stopped printing unique Buy-a-Box promos because people didn't like that!) But the things they said they'll never do again that most players wish they would break (the RL, fetchlands in $4 boosters)? *That* they actually adhere to.

[@kiowaharrell]

Its more like they have bad marketing feedback because people I think like the buy a box promos until one broke a format then they just assumed since one broke a format that means everyone hates them and never wats to see them again or another example the master pieces were well received until the amonkhet ones came out for having a hard time reading and they go nope everyone hates them they never want them again but those could of been too good deals to get at the time and wizards didn't like that idea

[@chrishetmanski1709]

@@kiowaharrell Masterpieces sounds about right. For the buy-a-box, though, I remember the first card being not amazing, but people were still expressing "But what if?" And then Nexus of Fate came, and the what if became reality. (At least, that's my memory of things, but jeez, does that seem more recent than it actually was.)

[@Osk570]

....Okay this is an aside, but every time I've seen Nalathni dragon I thought the caveman looking dude was the actual dragon, but in a human form or something. I'm not sure I even noticed the ACTUAL dragon in the art.

[@theetiologist9539]

I think the cards should be banned. I would be completely fine with them being played anywhere if they were functional reprints of other cards. Being mechanically unique to me is a huge problem and I think the community needs to respond negatively.

[@Zosh_]

Well... That new Glenn looks really playable. That didn't take that long lmao

[@MrPants432]

Right? if I could support this in any way, I could see myself piloting a Glenn commander deck. As it stands, I'm seriously considering whether I want to play the game at all any more. If this succeeds and it happens a second time, almost for sure no.

[@Funder1Nk]

Glen looks amazing actually. 3 mana card draw commanders tend to be good.

[@Funder1Nk]

Gladius714 then I play cast my Doritos nacho cheesier dust shield. And counter that ability.

[@Zosh_]

@@Funder1Nk Nah sorry. We don't accept that card in our playgroup it's too powerful and P2W

[@thenewlollipopjam8248]

Negan is gonna untap his Honor-Worn Lucille and add a colorless Mana to the back of Glenn's head.

[@kookooburu]

Been slowly selling out of Magic to get into 40k over lockdown and not regretting it. What a shitshow. Can't wait for "Pay two to have The Michelin Man crew Thomas the Tank Engine and attack John Cena, before damage cast Can of Monster Energy Ultra to give it +2/+2".

[@fredrikgranstrom6743]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@pcleadarchivist3718]

@ 08:20 Trokin High Guard, is from Ron Spencer. I rewound and sure enough. Such a great artist, after a few you can easily spot his work.

[@unraveki]

imagine showing Death Corona as an example of the godzilla technique.

[@Larry.R]

8:20 There's also Alaborn Zealot, who's basically holding what looks like a hunting rifle.

[@victorbarrios2824]

"So, what inspired you do this?" WoTC: "MONEY"

[@throsetube]

I’ve been weighing in on this topic and I have to say that of the videos I’ve watched, you give the most level headed response to it. I also love that you said vote with your wallet. That’s how I feel as well. Well crafted response.

[@kirbbar2258]

Everyone: 2020: Everyone: 2020: WotC succumbs to Vulture Capitalism Everyone: There it is

[@natanaru]

I'm not sure this is new for them. Its kinda why I stopped supporting them and juat use proxies to play not

[@kirbbar2258]

@@natanaru True, at least (or unfortunately) now no one can argue the contrary.

[@cecollector]

Would Shichfukujin Dragon be included in this list, of mechanically unique cards?

[@Loren_Law]

I wonder if in the future fans declare war of the spark the unofficial end of magic and pretend everything after doesn't exist, like when a TV show jumps the shark and has a couple of unwatchable seasons before being canceled

[@MalcIgg]

Private servers of MMO's that stop at a point in the development also come to mind...

[@mattshuey1]

@@MalcIgg Alot of people only play specific entries in the rules for 40k. Heck, some play 30k because the game has warped so much. When Age of Sigmar came out it was the biggest boon in sales ever... for Warhammer fantasy rules sets and armies.

[@kiowaharrell]

I could see that being the case war does seem like a good stopping point for everything magic.

[@spooplegeist]

Which is a bit unfortunate, because Throne of Eldraine and Ikoria are thematically cool and MOST of the mechanics in them aren’t absurd.

[@kiowaharrell]

@@spooplegeist right maybe if they do cross these IPs into standard everything from that point back is old magic but story wise it's just accepted war is the ending point for it and throne moving forward is just one shots basically

[@e1m0k44]

Due to license issues these could nvr be reprinted is a thing and to make new versions that are identical just allows 2 versions of the same card thus more copies for a deck to have. Also these could be fine now but some card in the future could break them like the thassa's oracle making the inverter of truth good years later.

[@lolimmune]

Mtg just isnt for me anymore apparently, I'll see you Wednesday vince. Swapping teams let's go GW! Building tyranids!

[@hydrainfernos9081]

lolimmune for the great devourer!

[@notreallyhere67]

“We want you to be excited about Product so we put another Product in your upcoming Product! Now you can be excited about Product while looking at another Product!”

[@doctorgames1239]

How fun would it be if the commander comitee banned the cards before release. They should've just reprinted commanders with walking dead alternate art.

[@GregHMacLean]

This would be a good move to deflate the value of the set. There's precedent for sure, they did a ban like that before when they printed lutri

[@Someone-lg6di]

@@GregHMacLean lutri was literally a case of if u have is set colors run it it was a fundamentally broken card that no one would realise it

[@GregHMacLean]

@@Someone-lg6di yep, it was a serious problem. I think this could even be more severe in terms of the health of the game over years, but either way my point was just they have precedent for banning before or upon release

[@MakeEmRageQuit]

WotC could take the Force of Will approach, and release a unique set based on the Walking dead. Force of will had released a supplemental product years back that was based on Valkeryia Chronicals, that you purchased as a complete set. I would have zero issue with WotC doing that.

[@TyrWolf88]

"If they're popular enough, we can reprint them in a set". So if enough people were to "vote with their wallets" and not buy these because we don't like them for non-gameplay reasons, then they won't be popular enough and we won't get the "Magic version" of these cards. If we do buy them, to show interest in the mechanical designs of the cards, then we add to the metrics that tell WotC that this is a good product, and they should do this to us again.

[@benjaminwilliams2859]

So mediocre sales combined with strong reactions then?

[@peruchotube]

Well said, PleasantKenobi. Thank you for voicing your opinion and standing with Commander players all around.

[@perspiringspike]

Me: trying to figure out if vince said 1995-2016 is 11 years for bait or actually did the math wrong

[@RichardSmith-fm1ul]

Love you point of view as always! Also I am more than pissed over the more than recent decisions being made...

[@NightfallTH]

Money, money, money Must be funny In the rich man's world.

[@jariel2568]

The wall scroll in the background is dope

[@BigDumbMeRC]

oh man looking forward to a mechanically unique set with the fuckin hamburglar and grimace

[@geekmp3]

Well said, Vince. I plan on buying these for both collecting and playing. My wife who doesn't play Magic but loves TWD also wanted it so there's that too. If they end up getting banned, I'm a fan of TWD. If they don't, I'm a fan of TWD and a Magic player.

[@gearframe87]

Honestly considering dumping my collection before standard turns into the two tier one meta decks being "grixis Sith Lords" and mono black "Batman"

[@inugami6890]

wont happen! Batman would probably black/white :D They seriously fucked this one up. I enjoyed the Godzilla stuff and I was lowkey looking forward to a Harry Potter secret lair when strixhaven releases, but not like this. If they are mechanically unique, put them in silver borders! Else go with the Godzilla skin-treatment. Why fuck this up so badly when you already created the solution? What a bleak future to look at...

[@williamsimkulet7832]

These should be Silver Bordered. D+D Should be Silver Bordered. Godzilla cards were a bad idea handled terribly, and they were the slippery slope that led to this.

[@TheTore1996]

I think you missed a very important point. Imagine someone who really loves the walking dead sees this a month or two after the purchasing period. Then what? They're going to get disappointed when they try to see how to buy these and won't be able to buy them anymore. It's a very limited time period where people from the walking dead can get into the game. I honestly don't think it'll be something new people from the walking dead would even buy other than maybe collectors of everything walking dead. You know why? Because it's $50! that's a lot of money to throw at something you might not want to do. And you don't have enough to play the game once you buy this anyways. It's just a horrible idea as a whole.

[@danimitetwitch]

Personally I’m all for having these fun alternate versions of cards out on the market. I’m not much for high fantasy and like a good chunk of whimsy in my make believe games. The overall concept of secret lairs does not really bother me. However, I do agree that Wizards should not be using them to print mechanically unique cards before they are also set legal. I won’t buy this secret lair because I don’t really care the The Walking Dead franchise. I want secret lairs to be a bonus, novelty product for magic, not a timed paywall. Hopefully we see these cards in rotation with Khaldheim or some set next year (tries to imagine fitting Negan into Thor Ragnarok).

[@mBowK]

Walking Dead fan here. Not excited about this. Feels predatory and cash grabby. I am a fan of D&D and Godzilla as well. The Godzilla one was stretching it but the fact it was a monster island/kaiju theme, it made sense. The D&D set I am excited for. It is mixing fantasy with fantasy. on top of that both have multiverse travel. The Walking Dead one though. It seems like advertisement and a chance to make extra from fans of both franchises. I guess some ppl like the idea of making decks off of their favorite non fantasy franchise? If I had to pick I would pick star wars (Merfolk Admiral Ackbar and Ewok tokens deck). Now what I would be excited about is a legendary creature: Ash from Evil Dead (Rakdos or Mardu). I would want it silver bordered but it would be a flavor win and Ash has done some planer travel (is he a planes walker?). I want a Mardu Zombie tribal deck.

[@GodwynDi]

Not a planeswalker, the necronomicon can open planar rifts. Would make an awesome silver bordered card. And two unique equipments. I might actually buy that secret lair.

[@mBowK]

@@GodwynDi I would buy it as long as the price wasn't a war crime.

[@theflintabletc]

Give me Secret Lair: Fast Foods. Ronald, BK, Wendy, Colonel Sanders, etc. You got yourself something weird with a product like that

[@mikepennell7570]

As Food tokens, sure...

[@schadenfreude4846]

worst mistake they've made in the past 5 years

[@joerudinsky1447]

Someone didn't play much standard in March

[@TSGypside]

Is it just me or did I start hearing the music used by whatculture somewhere around the 7 minute mark?

[@fidly4]

Y'know, I could handle the "immersion break" of someone playing a walking dead card against me, but the fact that I have to play it in MY OWN deck if I want to run a mechanically unique card is another level of annoyance for me.

[@kiowaharrell]

I don't see how any of them are really "mechanically unique". They aren't like un cards that have break the rules of the game type effects. The only thing I seen anyone point out is they use pronouns for them like he and she instead of saying thier whole name. They honestly just seem like commander cards hell gleen's mechanic could easily be an uncommon or rare in eldritch moon I was so convinced it was reused I had to check and was only a little shocked it wasn't

[@muditjohar5323]

@@kiowaharrell By mechanically unique, they mean that you wont find the same effects in another card. It does not mean that it is a new mutate or a new mechanic. The problem is that if people want that card with the exact same effects, they wont find a different one.

[@fidly4]

@@kiowaharrell By "mechanically unique" I simply mean that it's a distinct legal card in magic that I'm not allowed to play without having a Walking Dead character on it. King Gidorah isn't mechanically unique because I can play Illuna and not have to involve the Godzilla IP. Glenn could've been a rare in eldritch moon but he wasn't, meaning if you want to play with that exact combination of abilities and statline for that exact mana cost, you have to play some guy from the Walking Dead. That said, I think Negan is pretty "mechanically unique" even in the way you were using the term, since he creates this fun little guessing game where the opponent tries to figure out which card of theirs you'll choose so they don't have to lose more than one. Can't get that anywhere else.

[@kiowaharrell]

@@fidly4 ok that helps clear that up a bit I will say negen's mechanic is basically a will of council card just that you have to pick at the same time instead of starting with you then your opponent

[@W1DO]

Class action? Lawsuit? Anyone want to arrange it? Test case for the res list promise?

[@internetghost5912]

My favorite comment was: “If you don’t like it, don’t buy it” this needs to be voiced a bit more

[@galechan4724]

I havent bought shit from WotC in awhile and they keep getting worse, it turns out consumers don't control corporations and critiquing a corporation that decidedly owns your hobby seems like a reasonable thing to do.

[@TheAutomedon]

Whats the song at 8:50 on ?

[@jbama82]

Can the sheeple that typically buy whatever WotC prints PUH-LEASE wake up and not buy this?!?! Printing unique cards in the Secret Lair model is indescribably appalling. I will not buy this product or any Secret Lair product ever because of this drop. This is not something WotC should be incentivised to repeat.

[@jakeholder7885]

As a zombie tribal player, I was really excited to get nice versions of some of my zombies, well...

[@ruki25]

I see that Vince also has more Warhmer models. Is that sanguinius? Also congrats on snagging the indomitus box, how you liking necrons?

[@Vivicakes101]

All they needed to do was make them alt named godzilla like cards and surprise us with a commander legends spoiler at the same time, and everyone would be happy.

[@triplebog]

Whats the outro song? I was jamming

[@TheChrisl214]

I have a serious sprain in my outrage gland, so I have to pick and choose what to get worked up about.

[@kristennorth3268]

That Love Actually ref for your catchphrase killed me.

[@jasonkorf7700]

Nalathni Dragon saw play when it came out in a rogue decklist for Standard at that time. It wasn't good, but the fact that it showed up help further the point that printing promo cards that are legal in various formats is bad. Glenn was revealed earlier today and might actually be competitively playable in Legacy and Vintage.

[@ThePauliwrath]

Hey Vince, you may have forgot to mention that Wizards also made mechanically unique cards as box toppers, which they stopped doing as of ZRN. They admitted it was problematic that they did this. And that was AFTER the promo was made available in collector boosters (i.e. available elsewhere in greater supply, unlike nexus of fate)

[@AtomTomZeitalter]

Let's say Negan becomes a Legacy Staple and WOTC reprints the card as a Magic version. That just means, that now People can have 8 versions of the card in their deck, since it will have a different name. There is no winning move here. This is the worst possible thing.

[@CodenameJD]

You said you might play these in a video... has there been any MTGO release announced?

[@h2ojr1]

4:03 just wait until you see Rick Grimes, the Humans Staple Lord, who is much sought after as we speak for already powerful decks. They knew exactly what they were doing with him.

[@zacharylindahl]

If they can go back on that promise, they can go back on the reserved list. I've been an active player since champions of kamigawa. Almost walked away from the game when they banned twin. This has been the only thing since that has made me think about backing out

[@thisworldismyshonenanime7603]

Solution: just run your own budget formats and community/organized play events at the local bar or game store. My budget friday night magic uses bulk chaff winston chaos cube and pioneer-pauper constructed tournaments. Min 2 players per tournament and $2 entry fees. Players decklists are all public so anyone can check their legality.

[@MalcIgg]

pioneer-pauper - now that seems interesting, enjoyed Historic pauper events and playgroup testing :)

[@pytawidmo]

They will probably be foil too, which means that there will be even more tournament issues with them if they end up playable, see Nexus of Fate - pro-players had to use proxies during paper tournaments due to the curving and poor availability of the 4-of card in top tier deck.

[@Bluecho4]

This Walking Dead deal illustrates why chasing trends is not the best idea. The realities of the trading card game business are such that any promotional deal takes years to go from contract signing to a product being on store shelves. Not everything that is popular at the time is guaranteed to stay relevant by time of release. The deal with Toho went well, because Godzilla has had a certain amount of cultural staying power. It helps that we only get a film set in that universe every few years, so we aren't burned out on it. Godzilla is nostalgic. I suspect the same will be true of Strixhaven, a set undoubtedly built to capitalize on Harry Potter. Sure, HP's reputation has taken a huge dive thanks to its creator, but people still have that nostalgia for it. (It's telling that so many people still want to buy the upcoming HP video game, even despite it). So having a card set that scratches that itch, while not being directly associated with JKR, is retroactively a good move on WotC's part. I would love to see people replace their HP avatars with art from the Strixhaven card set. The Walking Dead, though, was a deal no doubt made during the peak of the property's relevance. A problem now that everyone's sick of it.

[@sambaker1121]

Good video, also great 40k collection in the back.

[@atragonx7939]

I stood in line to buy Legends packs, and I can't remember a time when I wasn't a Godzilla fan. That was a perfect storm of awesome for me. I think the "alternate skin" level of card variant was the best take. It lets people like me go wild and hunt them down and have a "Biollante" EDH deck, but it's still just Nethroi that anyone can pull from a standard booster pack. I think they could have pulled it off okay if they treated it like Zilortha, the Ikora box promo. ATM you can't get a non-Godzilla variant of Zilortha, but WotC doesn't need legal rights to Toho's IP to reprint it as "Zilortha, Strength Incarnate." Let the Walking Dead "skins" be the first printed card versions, but give them Official "Magic" character names too so they could print them in later sets... but they didn't do that.

[@JSalamonTutoring]

The RC absolutely should them, if you want to play with one as your commander just talk to your play group. The silver bordered cards are all banned and people still play those.

[@itsazombiethingsgaming1107]

I personally love all you takes. Aa a Walking Dead fan and a magic player, ill be buying this as a collector not really to play with. But brace yourself if this is popular, after D&D, The Walking Dead magic set and where you functioning reprints come from, its not farfetched given the D&D, Harry Potter, Godzilla crossovers. Magic has been on a slippery slope for the past year but youll still buy the VIP booster, right?

[@christopherlum7318]

You watching what culture gaming/comics/culture in the background?

[@russellb9545]

I do think the Commander review board should do a pre-emptive ban. In "this" case, the cards look made more for EDH and this will be possibly the only case where an outside influence can significantly effect Wizards actions going forward. They could even make the announcement that it is banned, until a card is released in a retail market set. This would send the message now at the start of all this nonsense by Wizards. Then if people want these cards and want to play commander, it is up to your play group like silver boarder cards and you won't be in a position of if one of these cards becomes the next "broken" commander you will have missed out.